:01:40. > :01:50.In the north-west - as East Lancashire's merger of a Andy
:01:50. > :01:50.
:01:50. > :29:54.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1683 seconds
:29:54. > :30:00.services a model but others should Coming up in the next 20 minutes:
:30:00. > :30:08.that joined up thinking. But as the East Lancashire to nurture of
:30:08. > :30:14.accident and emergency services at a model that others should follow?
:30:14. > :30:21.Today we have Andrew Gwynne of Labour and Geoff Driver of the
:30:21. > :30:25.Conservatives. The row over a controversial process of the
:30:25. > :30:29.drilling for shale gas continues. There is a massive amount below the
:30:29. > :30:35.surface of the Fylde Coast but environmental campaigners say that
:30:35. > :30:40.the process of getting hold of it is dangerous. This week a panel of
:30:40. > :30:45.scientists said it was fine to continue with proper safeguards.
:30:45. > :30:51.Far below the fields of the Fylde Coast lies the potential for new
:30:51. > :30:58.energy, jobs, and well. This is shale gas and the company hoped
:30:58. > :31:03.that this latest report will allow them to start drilling. Look at
:31:03. > :31:08.what the science community say. This is just another report that
:31:08. > :31:18.says it can be safer. We understand and know that but this confirms
:31:18. > :31:20.
:31:20. > :31:25.that. The process works by cutting deep into formations. The rocks are
:31:25. > :31:29.fractured a using explosives or hydraulic pressure. Water is then
:31:29. > :31:34.pumped in to create cracks and release the gas, probably worth
:31:34. > :31:39.billions of pounds. But with America that has come with
:31:39. > :31:49.explosive results. In places water supplies have been polluted with
:31:49. > :31:51.
:31:51. > :31:57.methane gas and other chemicals. Do not worry, say the scientists.
:31:57. > :32:03.Typically it is a lower than the natural consequences. The worst
:32:03. > :32:12.level of earth tremor is no more than a lorry passing in the road
:32:12. > :32:16.outside your house. But the report does question the more fundamental
:32:16. > :32:23.environmental impacts of burning gas and whether public opinion will
:32:23. > :32:33.be ready to accept the process. Joining us is felucca Machell of
:32:33. > :32:34.
:32:34. > :32:39.the Green Party. Is this not great news for you? -- Phil Mitchell.
:32:39. > :32:43.am not convinced. A lot of in by the mental health professionals and
:32:43. > :32:53.scientists are calling for a moratorium. -- environ mental
:32:53. > :32:57.health. Certainly groups such as the World Wildlife Fund and other
:32:57. > :33:02.environmental groups here and across the UK and the United States
:33:02. > :33:10.have called for a moratorium. They are concerned about the health
:33:10. > :33:14.impacts. I do not think that this report addresses that fully enough.
:33:14. > :33:23.Looking at the issue of safety this has now been classified as safe by
:33:23. > :33:32.the Royal Academy and the Royal engineers. Every fundamental report
:33:32. > :33:38.into the practice says it is safe. A lot of those are just reviews,
:33:38. > :33:43.not reports. The information is not fully completed. More research is
:33:43. > :33:51.needed. We need more research into epidemiological studies and the
:33:51. > :33:59.health impact before we can introduce it. Let's ask Geoff
:33:59. > :34:03.Driver. Do you think it is time to go ahead? The council are the
:34:03. > :34:07.ultimate planning authority but there are also licensing
:34:07. > :34:12.authorities and the Health and Safety Agency. All three bodies
:34:12. > :34:22.have to satisfy themselves before they get a licence or approval.
:34:22. > :34:24.
:34:24. > :34:27.Then it comes to us. But are you satisfied? It will come to us on
:34:27. > :34:34.the basis of environmentalists use so it would be wrong for me to give
:34:34. > :34:41.an opinion before I know exactly what the application as. -- environ
:34:41. > :34:49.mental concerns. But the report is from the Royal Academy of
:34:49. > :34:53.Engineering. Are you satisfied? course I am satisfied with a report
:34:53. > :34:59.from such eminent people, if you cannot accept their report, who
:34:59. > :35:03.would you except one from? If but we have always said that the
:35:03. > :35:11.fundamental concern is safety. If we would not look anywhere near
:35:11. > :35:17.this unless there were declarations it was safe. We well as you do that.
:35:17. > :35:23.So you are happy? But I must make it clear that this is about
:35:23. > :35:30.generality. We then only enter when a specific application is made. We
:35:30. > :35:38.would then enter on environmental grounds that an hour responsibility.
:35:38. > :35:41.-- Arc hour. The Royal Academy of Engineering made it clear that
:35:41. > :35:47.there needed to be a greater regulatory role from the Government
:35:47. > :35:54.first of all and I think that is absolutely crucial. What do you
:35:54. > :36:03.want to see? The concern is that there may be this natural
:36:03. > :36:07.resource... There definitely is. Absolutely, but we must be careful
:36:07. > :36:11.about the technology used to extract this natural resource.
:36:11. > :36:18.There are concerns about my cross seismic activity and there is
:36:18. > :36:28.evidence of that in the north-west where there has been a many tremors.
:36:28. > :36:34.
:36:34. > :36:40.-- micro seismic. We have to tread with absolute caution. So you would
:36:40. > :36:47.not yet say, go for it, even though there could be many jobs created?
:36:47. > :36:52.There has to be a tight regulatory system in place a first. It has to
:36:52. > :36:55.be said it that that is already the case. The Health and Safety Agency
:36:55. > :37:02.would have to be absolute dissatisfied the safety and meeting
:37:02. > :37:10.regulations. Mr Mitchell, a lot more safeguards do you want to know
:37:10. > :37:15.about? It strikes me that you may be just against the idea itself?
:37:15. > :37:24.Nor, I am not, but this technique, and populated areas where there are
:37:24. > :37:29.still potential health concerns, serious health issues have been
:37:29. > :37:39.noted within half a mile of these places. Research has been done into
:37:39. > :37:39.
:37:39. > :37:43.Imagine you are suddenly taken ill. Would you rather go to the nearest
:37:43. > :37:53.hospital or one that is further away but as a specialist unit? The
:37:53. > :37:58.closure of the partners in East Lancashire has led to protests.
:37:58. > :38:02.Ambulances are lined up outside Blackburn accident and emergency.
:38:02. > :38:07.But some of these would have come from Burnley. Until recently the
:38:07. > :38:11.town had its own emergency department, but not any more. It
:38:11. > :38:21.was downgraded as part of a reorganisation that sort all 999
:38:21. > :38:28.cases taken to Blackburn instead. The decision led to protests and
:38:28. > :38:33.petitions across east Lancashire. We have not always been as honest
:38:33. > :38:38.as we could be. We need to be able to say, we can offer you a better.
:38:38. > :38:43.Perhaps we're not offering the best possible, and we can now offer you
:38:43. > :38:47.it. If but he does what it will cost you. The same way that if you
:38:47. > :38:56.need brain surgery or a premature baby delivered, you would expect
:38:56. > :39:06.that to happen but not on your doorstep. It was a public-relations
:39:06. > :39:11.disaster but the Trust insist it has been a success. Heart attacks
:39:11. > :39:17.can now be treated very well. Dissolving the clot in the coronary
:39:17. > :39:20.artery and stopping the attack in its tracks. By centralising Arras
:39:20. > :39:28.service next to an emergency department in black bun we have
:39:28. > :39:37.made enormous changes to the outcomes. -- centralising the
:39:37. > :39:47.emergency service in Blackburn. would not like to be in an
:39:47. > :39:47.
:39:47. > :39:52.ambulance that can potentially get stuck in a motorway jam. 95% of
:39:52. > :39:56.what people need when they require emergency services should be
:39:56. > :40:03.catered for in Burnley. As an MP I'll continue to fight until we get
:40:03. > :40:08.that back. But the NHS Confederation of things that others
:40:08. > :40:13.should follow the example. It has called on politicians to be bolder
:40:13. > :40:18.in making for -- making the case for closing hospital units. The
:40:18. > :40:26.head of the NHS Federation says that the problem is persuading
:40:26. > :40:31.people to cling to their local district hospitals -- persuading
:40:31. > :40:39.people who cling to their local district hospitals might not
:40:39. > :40:49.guarantee the best services. 1 the patient group says that the
:40:49. > :40:50.
:40:50. > :40:56.combined effect of changes has created confusion. These services
:40:56. > :41:01.are in the meltdown. I get patients, here, specifically in Blackburn,
:41:01. > :41:09.telling me be a letter in bed so for Arabs. They say they are being
:41:09. > :41:17.treated from the backs of ambulances. That is not acceptable.
:41:17. > :41:24.The trust insists that overall standards have risen. Occasionally
:41:24. > :41:34.we are flustered when we get future flows are but we deal with them. --
:41:34. > :41:36.
:41:36. > :41:41.when we get huge flows. Getting the public and the politicians onside
:41:41. > :41:46.is proving a real challenge. I am now joined by the chairman of the
:41:46. > :41:56.NHS Federation. Welcome to the programme. Are you convinced that
:41:56. > :41:57.
:41:57. > :42:01.these more centrally organised services are better? Thrust, some
:42:01. > :42:11.services can be provided more safely by putting them in centres
:42:11. > :42:16.of excellence. -- forcibly. That gives us much better outcomes for
:42:16. > :42:20.patients. But some services come the other way. So in parts of the
:42:20. > :42:24.North West for example we are seeing mobile linear accelerators
:42:24. > :42:34.available in all done where they were previously unavailable. We
:42:34. > :42:36.
:42:36. > :42:40.have brought us closer to patients. -- available and Oldham. What is
:42:40. > :42:48.the evidence that the service has improved for people living in
:42:48. > :42:53.Burnley? My understanding is that it has improved the chances of
:42:53. > :42:57.people surviving heart attacks by up to 20%. It is seven miles down
:42:57. > :43:01.the motorway from barn-like to Blackburn hospitals. So our
:43:01. > :43:05.discussion and debate with the public is to ask, do you believe
:43:06. > :43:14.that an extra seven miles to improve your chances of surviving a
:43:14. > :43:23.heart attack is worth the drive? But where does that figure come
:43:23. > :43:29.from? It is the data and that the trust has gathered since moving the
:43:29. > :43:34.Department. Certainly the data that I was aware of shows that they have
:43:34. > :43:41.improved heart attack chances. In fact you own item showed that those
:43:41. > :43:50.to survival rates are improving. That has to be a good thing. Shadow
:43:50. > :43:54.health minister, do you want to see more of this kind of thing? People
:43:54. > :43:58.want a balance of locality and the best services available. We took
:43:58. > :44:03.difficult decisions when we winning government in order to reconfigure
:44:03. > :44:08.or certain services in part of the country. Doors are often unpopular
:44:08. > :44:16.Attie local level, I can understand that because ice a local Member of
:44:16. > :44:25.Parliament I want to protect my hospital. But clinicians say that
:44:25. > :44:27.is not always the best approach. it unpopular because people
:44:27. > :44:37.perceive their worse-off, or because they actually are worse
:44:37. > :44:43.off? I think it is the perception. The NHS is going through a massive
:44:43. > :44:51.change. And so the way we do things has to be restructured different
:44:51. > :44:55.life. But if it is about perception, we saw a Liberal-Democrat MP who
:44:55. > :45:01.was saying that he is still against this after years of campaigning,
:45:01. > :45:09.does that mean he is wrong? You could argue that his pandering to
:45:09. > :45:14.that perception. The statistics show that specialist services have
:45:14. > :45:19.brought improvements to NHS services in East Lancashire. That
:45:19. > :45:24.speaks for itself. But we must take us on a case-by-case approach. We
:45:24. > :45:34.must look at each hospital service and the way that the NHS provides
:45:34. > :45:39.services. Less emphasis on hospital care and more and community care.
:45:39. > :45:44.agree, but I would go further than just perception. People are
:45:44. > :45:49.intuitively fearful if they see a service go. So we must convince
:45:49. > :45:55.them that it is better. We have to keep monitoring. Michael has
:45:55. > :46:00.referred to some statistics regards it surviving heart attacks. That is
:46:00. > :46:03.definitely better in the short term but we must keep monitoring it.
:46:03. > :46:10.Next April we'll former health and well-being bourbon that will give
:46:10. > :46:18.the county council are better say. -- we will form a health and well-
:46:18. > :46:23.being board. This is all about improving services for the people
:46:23. > :46:26.of the Burnley, Blackburn, and in between. But intuitively they feel
:46:26. > :46:32.that if you close an accident and emergency department down at that
:46:32. > :46:36.it will take away a service. But the reverse is true because we can
:46:36. > :46:39.concentrate the services to people and make sure they get a better
:46:39. > :46:43.service. Off but we must keep convincing them, we do not say,
:46:43. > :46:53.that is that done, we keep monitoring, keep making sure it is
:46:53. > :46:58.
:46:58. > :47:08.working. As it because people are unconvinced when politicians say
:47:08. > :47:11.that the service is better. I think both panellists are correct.
:47:11. > :47:15.Doctors will be taking key decisions an hour clinical
:47:15. > :47:20.commissioning groups. They are trusted by the public and I think
:47:20. > :47:30.we should give them to explain why the changes are in their interests.
:47:30. > :47:30.
:47:30. > :47:34.What instead need politicians to do is to take their lead. It is
:47:34. > :47:37.difficult for politicians to make these arguments however when we
:47:37. > :47:45.hear patients' groups saying that accident and emergency departments
:47:45. > :47:47.are in meltdown. We absolutely need to get that right and it is
:47:47. > :47:52.unacceptable if patients are waiting longer than the need to be
:47:52. > :47:55.once we have reorganised services. But we need to get politicians are
:47:55. > :48:00.unable to back up a strong clinical opinion saying that for all of us
:48:00. > :48:03.this is the best thing. Sometimes politicians feel compelled to be at
:48:03. > :48:08.the front of the March, when if we could give them better evidence and
:48:08. > :48:18.explain to the public directly why this matters, then the politicians
:48:18. > :48:19.
:48:19. > :48:26.are obliged to say, yes, we will Our round-up of the week's other
:48:26. > :48:31.political news now. Two teenagers are suing Lancashire County Council
:48:31. > :48:36.after a judge described their treatment and care as inhumane and
:48:36. > :48:46.degrading. Been abused in foster homes and lost contact with their
:48:46. > :48:51.
:48:51. > :48:54.worst home -- a family. The family of a lover April man watched by his
:48:54. > :49:04.killers conviction strengthened and death by stabbing treated like
:49:04. > :49:08.
:49:08. > :49:12.shooting. -- the family of a Liverpool man. And tributes have
:49:12. > :49:22.been paid to the former Conservative MP, Ken Hargreaves,
:49:22. > :49:28.