:01:33. > :01:36.And in the North West: "We were right to quit." The Lib
:01:36. > :01:46.Dem councillors who lost the faith - I ask Nick Clegg if the party's
:01:46. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :35:03.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1997 seconds
:35:03. > :35:06.huge local losses have been worth Welcome to the Sunday Politics in
:35:06. > :35:10.the North West. Coming up this morning:
:35:10. > :35:17."We were right to quit." The Lib Dem councillors who lost the faith
:35:17. > :35:21.and Nick Clegg's message to those who didn't.
:35:21. > :35:31.I am proud, proud of the fact that Lib Dems stepped up and said, we
:35:31. > :35:33.are going to play a role in setting The full interview coming up.
:35:33. > :35:37.This week, with the Liberal Democrats gathering in Brighton,
:35:37. > :35:40.we're looking at the party's fortunes in the North West. But
:35:40. > :35:43.first, let's meet this week's guests. Jo Crotty chairs the party
:35:43. > :35:53.in the region, and Professor Andrew Russell is head of Politics at the
:35:53. > :35:53.
:35:53. > :35:58.University of Manchester. The leadership has been pretty busy,
:35:58. > :36:01.saying sorry this week. Have you got anything to apologise for?
:36:02. > :36:06.Many things, but not on national television!
:36:06. > :36:11.And Drew, just set the scene for us for the party in Brighton. --
:36:11. > :36:15.Andrew. Now is the time for the Lib Dems to
:36:15. > :36:22.express to the country as a whole and the region what it is they
:36:22. > :36:25.stand for. That is what we will be talking
:36:25. > :36:28.about as well. So where are the Lib Dems in the
:36:28. > :36:30.North West? They'll be defending six seats at the next general
:36:30. > :36:33.election, in Burnley, Manchester Withington, Cheadle, Hazel Grove,
:36:33. > :36:35.Southport and Westmorland & Lonsdale. And in three of them, a
:36:35. > :36:38.swing of just 3% or less could unseat the MP.
:36:38. > :36:42.But it's at the grassroots where you can see the real impact of
:36:42. > :36:47.being in government. Back in 2010, there were more than 400 Lib Dem
:36:47. > :36:50.councillors across the region. In last year's local elections, more
:36:50. > :36:53.than 100 were lost, and this year the party were left with around 230.
:36:53. > :36:56.Labour has more than 1,200 and the Conservatives 650. Well, two years
:36:56. > :37:00.ago, four local councillors in Runcorn quit the party, saying the
:37:00. > :37:03.leadership had betrayed them by going into coalition. They later
:37:03. > :37:13.stood as independents, but lost. So, two years on, Andy Gill's been back
:37:13. > :37:15.
:37:15. > :37:20.to meet them. If they come back and say, we were
:37:20. > :37:23.fined 1,000 extra people, then great.
:37:23. > :37:25.-- we will fund. The Halton Lib Dems who quit are
:37:25. > :37:30.still serving their community - just not as elected councillors.
:37:30. > :37:33.Here, Bob Bryant and Mike Shepherd at a careers forum.
:37:33. > :37:35.Peter Blackmore presents on Halton Community Radio. We brought
:37:35. > :37:40.together three of the former councillors who resigned and the
:37:40. > :37:48.local party chair, Mike Hodgkinson. He stayed on after the coalition
:37:48. > :37:50.was formed but retired in May. What I thought then is come to
:37:51. > :37:56.fruition. Among the quitters, there's no
:37:56. > :38:00.doubt they did the right thing. Universal credit is going to be a
:38:00. > :38:04.nightmare for my community. People are going to have to make decisions
:38:04. > :38:10.were there to feed the kids or pay the rent or council tax.
:38:10. > :38:14.We can't knock on people's doors and say keep voting for the Lib
:38:14. > :38:18.Dems. It will stick in the throat. But the party chair defends Nick
:38:18. > :38:23.Clegg's decision to go into government.
:38:23. > :38:28.Had we stayed out of government, it would have been difficult. People
:38:28. > :38:32.forget that the financial markets were in turmoil about Europe then.
:38:32. > :38:35.Our ability to borrow money from abroad would have been more
:38:35. > :38:39.difficult. Isn't the problem for the Lib Dems
:38:39. > :38:43.that you are trying to claim credit -- credit for being part of the
:38:43. > :38:48.government in a difficult time, but you are paying a heavy electoral
:38:48. > :38:52.price for that? The voters don't give you any credit for it.
:38:52. > :38:54.The reality is that whoever had been in government, they would have
:38:54. > :38:57.to put through some very tough measures.
:38:57. > :39:00.They think Nick Clegg should have stuck to his guns on tuition fees
:39:00. > :39:07.before agreeing to the coalition, and that he must shoulder most of
:39:07. > :39:11.the blame for party's dismal election prospects.
:39:11. > :39:16.There is quite a few students in this borough, people who want to go
:39:16. > :39:21.to university. Now they can't afford to because of tuition fees.
:39:21. > :39:31.He has shot us in the foot. He has committed suicide Ki really.
:39:31. > :39:31.
:39:31. > :39:38.Where do you see the Lib Dems in the north-west in two years?
:39:38. > :39:42.Absolutely nowhere. They will be lucky to have one seat.
:39:42. > :39:50.In 2015, where is the infrastructure for the Lib Dems?
:39:50. > :39:57.Where is the ground support? The Lib Dems were famous for
:39:57. > :39:59.building power on the pavement. The worry now is there'll be no Lib
:39:59. > :40:02.Dems left on the pavement to rebuild trust and support.
:40:02. > :40:06.I'm pleased to say we're also joined from Brighton now by John
:40:06. > :40:12.Pugh, the Lib Dem MP for Southport. It is difficult, really, to say
:40:12. > :40:16.those councillors we heard from were wrong.
:40:16. > :40:20.I don't know about whether it is right or wrong. When we went into
:40:20. > :40:24.coalition, there were people who felt strongly that they didn't want
:40:24. > :40:27.to go into a coalition with the Conservatives. Within the party,
:40:27. > :40:33.there is a feeling that a more natural partner would have been the
:40:33. > :40:37.Labour Party. But the arithmetic wasn't there.
:40:37. > :40:41.But what they argue is that by going into coalition with the
:40:41. > :40:45.Tories, you are now making incredibly difficult decisions.
:40:45. > :40:49.You're not being seen as a party of social justice. They felt that the
:40:49. > :40:53.party was going to disintegrate. That is what we are seeing.
:40:53. > :40:57.Disintegrate is a strong word. If you are in government and you have
:40:57. > :41:05.been left with the legacy, the huge deficit by the previous Labour
:41:05. > :41:08.government, you were going to have to make some difficult decisions.
:41:08. > :41:12.Now they are not counsellors because they found it even more
:41:12. > :41:16.difficult to run a campaign. That is not to say that I don't have
:41:16. > :41:21.empathy with them. There are many people, excellent councillors who
:41:21. > :41:28.have lost their seats in the north- west over the past two years. I
:41:28. > :41:36.think they might find that difficult when they move into
:41:36. > :41:37.politics. Do you think you are giving the
:41:37. > :41:47.impression that to our liking politics too much?
:41:47. > :41:51.I think and how it looks. Andrew, what about the Lib Dems'
:41:51. > :41:55.position in the north-west? Is it worse than other parts of the
:41:55. > :42:00.country? The context is axiomatic of the
:42:00. > :42:04.problem the party has. The third party is struggling for space in a
:42:04. > :42:07.system designed for two. The Lib Dems have come through as the
:42:07. > :42:13.challenger party to the established party, whether that be the
:42:13. > :42:16.Conservatives or Labour. Actually facing both ways is always going to
:42:16. > :42:21.be problematic. The secret for success has been the kind of
:42:21. > :42:26.localised campaign. Now, suddenly, when they are in government, it is
:42:26. > :42:33.difficult for the Lib Dems to kind of focus exclusively on the local
:42:33. > :42:38.campaign. John, in Brighton, what those
:42:38. > :42:42.councillors were arguing, I suppose, and what I put to Joe, is that you
:42:42. > :42:47.are no longer seen as the party of social justice. We have seen
:42:47. > :42:52.tuition fees, local council cuts, the NHS Bill. That is a difficult
:42:52. > :42:55.position for you. I'm surprised you picked on
:42:55. > :42:59.councillors in Runcorn. The coalition has found the money for
:42:59. > :43:07.the Mersey gait Weybridge, as they found the money for the northern
:43:07. > :43:12.hub. -- Gateway Bridge. The Labour Party rallied over these things for
:43:12. > :43:22.too long. They are the last councillors who should be
:43:22. > :43:22.
:43:22. > :43:29.complaining. What they seem to be saying, there
:43:29. > :43:33.may be people who are happy to get to you -- a local bridge. But they
:43:33. > :43:38.are not happy about cuts to local services.
:43:38. > :43:45.There are big England wins. The problem the coalition has about
:43:45. > :43:50.making sure isn't -- it is not just the South East that gains from the
:43:50. > :43:54.recovery, that is important. There have been difficult local elections.
:43:54. > :43:59.It has been very difficult for people. But the essential product
:43:59. > :44:01.of revitalising the north-west and encouraging manufacturing,
:44:02. > :44:07.encouraging manufacturing in places like Liverpool and Manchester, that
:44:07. > :44:14.is a wholly good one. I was having a look at the
:44:14. > :44:16.conference agenda. Given the state that the party is in, I would have
:44:16. > :44:20.thought that you would want to spend more time discussing how to
:44:20. > :44:24.get out of it and how to improve the position you are in.
:44:24. > :44:30.I think we have learned from the early phase of coalition. What we
:44:30. > :44:35.now have is a very, very close focus on the economy, jobs, and
:44:35. > :44:40.things that really do matter. These things matter to people who are not
:44:40. > :44:43.particularly detained by politics. We are on the right page.
:44:43. > :44:49.Andrew, what is the way out for the Lib Dems in the region?
:44:49. > :44:55.The way out is a loaded term. It suggests they are looking for a way
:44:55. > :45:01.out. I mean recovering. Actually, what John has just said
:45:01. > :45:07.about saying the story is local as well as national, that is the real
:45:07. > :45:12.problem for the smaller party. They are always going to be in a
:45:12. > :45:20.peculiar position in a coalition. If you are happy, you would say it
:45:20. > :45:30.is a major party's effort. If you are unhappy, you blame the smaller
:45:30. > :45:34.
:45:34. > :45:37.The man at the centre of all this is the Deputy Prime Minister and
:45:37. > :45:43.leader of the Liberal Democrats, Nick Clegg. I spoke to him before
:45:43. > :45:47.conference got underway at the Cabinet Office.
:45:47. > :45:51.I almost wonder if we should start this into the by apologising to
:45:51. > :45:55.each other simply because that is the way things seem to be at the
:45:55. > :45:59.moment. Instead, let the press on and asked about the local election
:45:59. > :46:04.results in the north-west. How disappointed were you?
:46:04. > :46:07.I was disappointed. The Lib Dems have lost councillors, good
:46:07. > :46:17.colleagues, servants of their communities in local elections two
:46:17. > :46:20.years in a row. Clearly, entry into government has been unpopular with
:46:20. > :46:25.people in the North West, and of course, we have to take difficult
:46:25. > :46:29.decisions because there's no money left by the last government. I hope
:46:29. > :46:36.that people in the north-west will say that nonetheless we have done
:46:36. > :46:39.some good things, important things that will benefit them. It is the
:46:39. > :46:44.Lib Dems who are delivering a change in the tax system, such that
:46:45. > :46:50.next April, instead of paying tax after �6,400, which is how it was
:46:50. > :46:55.when we came into government, you can and �9,200 tax free as of next
:46:55. > :47:02.April. Bad-taste 2 million people on low pay out of paying any income
:47:02. > :47:08.tax altogether. -- that takes 2 million people. That is one example
:47:08. > :47:14.of the many things... Let's talk about those local
:47:14. > :47:21.elections, steal. The Lost World out of 12 councillors. -- you lost
:47:21. > :47:27.12 out of 12 councillors. That is pretty disastrous.
:47:27. > :47:32.As I said, it has been a setback for the Lib Dems. What goes up,
:47:32. > :47:37.goes down in politics. When will it start to go up? I am
:47:37. > :47:42.not a soothsayer, I am a politician and a human being. As the economy
:47:42. > :47:48.recovers, people will see that we have given them money with economic
:47:48. > :47:51.changes, we have delivered more changes in the north-west, we have
:47:51. > :47:55.given the pensioners of the north- west the biggest cash increase in
:47:55. > :48:00.their state pension ever because of the guarantee from the Lib Dems. We
:48:00. > :48:04.have given schools extra money through the people premium, to help
:48:04. > :48:08.schools educate children from difficult backgrounds. We are doing
:48:08. > :48:12.these things well during the painstaking job of rescuing and
:48:12. > :48:15.repairing an economy that had been left in tatters by the last
:48:15. > :48:19.government. And when you went into government,
:48:19. > :48:23.you knew that tough choices would have to be made. I know that. Did
:48:23. > :48:29.you realise that it would be at the extent of this much damage to your
:48:29. > :48:33.local government base? Maybe you have a crystal ball but I
:48:33. > :48:41.don't. It is hard to know what is going to happen from one year to
:48:41. > :48:45.the next. I didn't know, candidly, back in 2010, that the eurozone was
:48:45. > :48:50.going to be grinding from one crisis to the other. Clearly, I
:48:50. > :48:54.could not anticipate when making to government that the mission, which
:48:54. > :48:58.is the central mission of the Lib Dems in this government, to repair
:48:58. > :49:01.our economy, to create hope and jobs for the future, would be more
:49:01. > :49:04.difficult than we thought at the outset because the damage that was
:49:04. > :49:08.incurred because of labour's irresponsibility was worse than we
:49:08. > :49:14.had expected. Has the sacrifice been worth it?
:49:14. > :49:18.I don't think we will know whether anything has been worth it until we
:49:18. > :49:23.know what their jobs, optimism, hope and stability have been
:49:23. > :49:27.restored to the British economy. At the end of the day, what is more
:49:27. > :49:31.important than the political fortunes of any politician or party
:49:32. > :49:37.is whether we as a country can pull together to recover from one of the
:49:37. > :49:43.biggest shocks in the post-war period that happened in 2008? Why
:49:43. > :49:49.did it happen? Because people like Ed Balls were on a charm offensive
:49:49. > :49:54.in the city of London. It has taken longer than I had, but I'm proud
:49:54. > :49:59.that the Lib Dems stepped up and said, we are going to try to set
:49:59. > :50:03.the country on a better path. Andrew, apart from Nick Clegg being
:50:03. > :50:08.and used by my reference to those apologies, I thought it was
:50:08. > :50:13.interesting that when I asked him were the sacrifice is worth it, he
:50:13. > :50:18.didn't seem quite so sure. Events, dear boy, is what he was
:50:18. > :50:22.saying. When you go into government, you can't predict what is going to
:50:22. > :50:28.happen. The real pressure for the Lib Dems is that the wings they
:50:28. > :50:35.have had, with the greatest respect to things like tax thresholds, are
:50:35. > :50:39.not as sexy as some was the defeat they have had, like tuition fees. -
:50:40. > :50:47.- some of the defeats. The government would have liked signs
:50:47. > :50:50.of recovery to have taken place. 2015 will be easier if the
:50:50. > :50:54.electorate could see things were getting better. The signs now are
:50:54. > :50:57.that it is going to be a long road to recovery. That makes it
:50:57. > :51:00.difficult for all the parties in the coalition, but particularly the
:51:01. > :51:06.Lib Dems. Do you think the sacrifice is in
:51:06. > :51:11.the region have been worth it? That is a very difficult question.
:51:11. > :51:15.If you have not been in government for several generations, and you
:51:15. > :51:21.have the opportunity to be in government, he almost had to take
:51:22. > :51:27.it, or why are you in politics? -- you almost have to take it. I would
:51:27. > :51:31.go back to what Mike Hodgkinson was saying, that really we needed a
:51:31. > :51:34.stable government at around that time. If we had gone into another
:51:35. > :51:39.general election, maybe we would not now be in the same extent as
:51:39. > :51:45.Greece, but they have had two elections. To some extent, I don't
:51:45. > :51:52.think we had a choice. If we are a serious party, we had to go into
:51:52. > :51:59.coalition. Like Nick, I'm surprised that it is all the Lib Dems' fault
:51:59. > :52:06.that people seem to have forgotten Bacup the Labour Party caused the
:52:06. > :52:11.deficit. His Nick Clegg -- is Nick Clegg a
:52:11. > :52:14.vote winner in this region? That is a difficult question. Because the
:52:14. > :52:18.answer is no. To an extent that is true. People
:52:18. > :52:23.identify him with the break of trust over tuition fees. You can't
:52:23. > :52:27.put that any other way. John, can you gloss over that or do
:52:27. > :52:32.you agree that he is not a vote winner?
:52:32. > :52:36.I think she is right. Going into government is a tough call for any
:52:36. > :52:42.small party. We have experience that. In the first two years of
:52:42. > :52:45.coalition, we played our Han not particularly well. Tuition have --
:52:45. > :52:52.Tricia fees is a good example. I hope the party has learned from
:52:52. > :52:56.that. We could have played a smarter hand in the first two metal
:52:56. > :52:59.years of Parliament. Nick is right to apologise for some of the errors.
:53:00. > :53:04.Some of the polling we are looking at a showing that the public are
:53:04. > :53:08.responding positively to that. The Daily Mail did a similar poll to
:53:08. > :53:13.find out the reaction to Nick's apology. They found out it was good
:53:13. > :53:17.for him and did not publish it. Let's remember what he is
:53:17. > :53:21.apologising for. He is not apologising for the policy. His
:53:21. > :53:26.apologising for the pledge, the initial pledge that was broken.
:53:26. > :53:30.When it came to that vote, you still voted for that pledge. You
:53:31. > :53:35.start by your guns. On that basis, presumably you think he is actually
:53:35. > :53:39.wrong to apologise for this? You would not be apologising for the
:53:39. > :53:44.original pledge, would you? Every politician has to deal with their
:53:44. > :53:48.unconscious. Nick Clegg feels, like anybody, that sometimes you can't
:53:48. > :53:52.keep promises. You probably can't keep every promise you have made.
:53:52. > :53:57.To that extent, I think he is clearing the ground, trying to get
:53:57. > :54:00.an identity for himself in the north-west. To some extent, I think
:54:00. > :54:03.he will succeed. But you don't fundamentally agree
:54:04. > :54:08.with the principle of that apology because you felt that the original
:54:08. > :54:13.pledge was right? I thought the issue of trust was
:54:13. > :54:16.paramount. That was a political calculation. I also thought there
:54:16. > :54:20.were other ways of funding university education, for example,
:54:20. > :54:24.a graduate tax, which we should look at first.
:54:24. > :54:27.What is the way back for the party in the region? Is it all about the
:54:28. > :54:32.national picture, the economy recovering? Or is there anything
:54:32. > :54:36.else you can do regionally? I think it is the economy, the
:54:36. > :54:42.economy, the economy. For both parties in the coalition, that
:54:42. > :54:46.trumps everything. Some of the issues John has highlighted in
:54:46. > :54:51.terms of what the coalition has done for this region, we need to do
:54:51. > :54:55.a better job at communicating. Thank you for your time. I hope you
:54:55. > :54:58.enjoy the conference. Over the coming weeks, we'll be
:54:58. > :55:01.speaking to the leaders of the other two major parties as we focus
:55:01. > :55:11.on their conferences. But what else has been happening over the last
:55:11. > :55:12.
:55:12. > :55:15.week? Here's Chris Rider with our Not a good week for Grant Shapps,
:55:15. > :55:19.who broke the law by allowing millions to be spent knocking down
:55:19. > :55:23.terraced houses, some in the north- west. Problem was, it is against
:55:23. > :55:32.government policy. UKIP is in conference mood but
:55:32. > :55:36.putting Europe to one side. People like what we have to say on
:55:36. > :55:41.the ground. People like all we have to say on immigration.
:55:41. > :55:45.The Marine Conservation Society says continuation of the bathing
:55:45. > :55:49.waters in Blackpool has reached tipping point.
:55:50. > :55:52.Stand and deliver - the West Lancashire MP got on her High
:55:52. > :55:56.Halstow in a parliamentary debate on the west coast main line. She
:55:56. > :56:06.compared some train companies to a latter-day Dick Turpin.
:56:06. > :56:13.
:56:14. > :56:19.Police say we have not -- please, Andrew, we heard there that it has
:56:19. > :56:26.been EU could conference, too. How significant a force are they? -- it
:56:26. > :56:32.has been EU kip Conference, too. They will have a big push in the
:56:32. > :56:35.run-up to the European elections. They have done well traditionally.
:56:35. > :56:39.Then it is about exerting pressure, especially on the right wing of the
:56:39. > :56:45.Conservative Party. The reshuffle was a sign that the Conservatives
:56:45. > :56:51.are worried about the pressure from UKIP. That they also represent a
:56:51. > :56:55.pressure for third party politics. It is traditionally thought that
:56:55. > :56:59.they taken votes away from the Conservative Party. But they can
:56:59. > :57:01.actually take Lib Dem votes as well because there are a lot of protest
:57:01. > :57:06.voters who switched from you to them.
:57:06. > :57:10.It is true. In the past, we have tended to suck away some of that
:57:10. > :57:14.protest vote against the Tories. But now we are a party in
:57:14. > :57:19.government. It is time to vote by protesting against us, I guess. In
:57:19. > :57:26.that sense, UKIP can take a vote away if you are trying to protest
:57:26. > :57:31.an incumbent. They don't have any MPs. Although some polls have shown
:57:31. > :57:34.they may get some, the only one that counts is in a couple of years.
:57:34. > :57:41.You are not too worried about their impact?
:57:41. > :57:51.I will be surprised if they may a breakthrough in 2.5 years.
:57:51. > :57:53.
:57:53. > :57:56.Feel free to keep in touch during Next week, we're in Manchester for
:57:56. > :57:57.the Labour conference, and our guests will include the former