:01:27. > :01:31.High Speed Rail and west coast Mainline. Building a model railway
:01:31. > :01:41.or hitting the buffers? What should be done to get our trains back on
:01:41. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :35:56.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2054 seconds
:35:56. > :36:00.I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in the North West - building a model
:36:00. > :36:08.railway, or hitting the buffers? What should be done to get our
:36:08. > :36:13.trains back on track? What we need to do is to move towards the German
:36:13. > :36:23.or the French model where you have got franchising which would not
:36:23. > :36:26.
:36:26. > :36:29.exist in this form. Some people refuse to travel in standard class
:36:29. > :36:32.and That journey to come, but first, our guests this week. Alison
:36:32. > :36:35.McGovern is the Labour MP for Wirral South and David Mowat, the
:36:35. > :36:38.Conservative for Warrington South. Alison, I know you've got a bit of
:36:38. > :36:41.a passion for trains in the family? That is right. Three members of my
:36:41. > :36:46.family and three generations in the rail industry. I am proving to be a
:36:46. > :36:53.bit of a trainer geek. Which is what we need this week. And David,
:36:53. > :36:57.crucial for the local economy? hour and 45 minutes to Euston and
:36:57. > :37:04.it could get better and I hope it does. Some people have been
:37:04. > :37:06.listening to Lord Heseltine will stop --. If you listened to Lord
:37:07. > :37:09.Heseltine this week, there is something else crucial to the local
:37:09. > :37:12.economy. Well, 89 things actually. But overall, sending more power and
:37:12. > :37:15.money back here from Westminster. The former Conservative Deputy
:37:15. > :37:18.Prime Minister has plenty of history here in the North West,
:37:18. > :37:28.most famously working in Liverpool after the Toxteth riots. But will
:37:28. > :37:29.
:37:29. > :37:35.anybody listen to him this time Transforming the fortunes of the
:37:35. > :37:40.city in the wake of the Toxteth rioting. This inspired his clan 30
:37:40. > :37:44.years later. Because of my experience in Manchester and
:37:44. > :37:50.Liverpool, I know the people very well and worked with them over many
:37:50. > :37:55.decades. That has encouraged me to say to the Government, the talent
:37:55. > :38:00.and the energy and ideas are all there. Draw them into the process.
:38:00. > :38:03.He wants to give the economic regeneration bodies known as local
:38:03. > :38:09.enterprise partnerships, millions of extra pounds to help them
:38:09. > :38:13.compete for contracts like the one awarded in Birkenhead. It was a
:38:13. > :38:19.really positive report. He recognised the importance of what
:38:19. > :38:23.we can achieve economic life. He is bold, ambitious and determined and
:38:23. > :38:31.we are doing what we can in Liverpool. A we have got fantastic
:38:31. > :38:37.other ships. For the first time ever -- partnerships. For the first
:38:37. > :38:41.time ever we are stimulated the development. What is shipyard is
:38:41. > :38:47.busy again, it is a lot of money, 45 billion, to prise away from
:38:47. > :38:52.government. It is almost like the Plan B. For the Government to adopt
:38:52. > :38:58.what he said, this would be a U- turn on the present strategy. I am
:38:58. > :39:08.not sure they would make that. underlines the lack of strategy,
:39:08. > :39:12.
:39:12. > :39:15.said the Labour Party. And what And here is the actual report.
:39:15. > :39:17.We're also joined by Professor Alan Harding, a specialist in economic
:39:17. > :39:23.regeneration at Liverpool University. You did one better than
:39:23. > :39:30.reading the report, didn't you? Indeed, yes. What do you draw out
:39:30. > :39:39.of it? Be it is a tree's bark Michael Heseltine issue. Lots of
:39:39. > :39:44.issues -- trade mark. It is all about making departments work
:39:44. > :39:49.together. We have got a lot in there about engaging the private
:39:50. > :39:59.sector. And a lot in there about the Government doing more to get
:39:59. > :40:05.the economy going. Yes and there is a sum of �49 billion which has been
:40:05. > :40:11.identified. That is a big challenge for Whitehall. He is not making any
:40:11. > :40:16.bones about how people respond. you were to summarise his strategy
:40:16. > :40:19.about getting the economy moving, what is he saying? He has said
:40:19. > :40:24.government is important to economic development which is a refreshing
:40:24. > :40:29.change from the last few years. He said government needs to provide
:40:29. > :40:33.the framework and a lot of the core investment. We need decentralised
:40:33. > :40:38.models of local economic development, which must be properly
:40:38. > :40:44.resourced, which people would support. He is saying the private
:40:44. > :40:47.sector must be an important part of strategy. David Mowat, it sounds
:40:47. > :40:50.like from what Professor Alan Harding is saying that it is quite
:40:50. > :40:57.a difference. Instead of leaving it to the private sector, you need
:40:57. > :41:01.more support. I think the principle is that 60 billion which is
:41:01. > :41:07.currently spent in Whitehall should be reallocated to the regions and
:41:07. > :41:10.spent there. I support that. It is building on what the Government is
:41:10. > :41:17.doing, like the City deal's programme. A lot of power is moving
:41:17. > :41:21.from Whitehall to Manchester and Liverpool. We have got a problem in
:41:21. > :41:26.this country in terms of centralisation and power and
:41:26. > :41:31.activity in Whitehall. English regions in particular have lost out.
:41:31. > :41:36.If this report is part of getting that changed it is good. Alison
:41:37. > :41:43.McGovern? He has paid an argument in favour of regional development
:41:43. > :41:49.agencies which of course the Government have taken apart. Let me
:41:49. > :41:53.just make this point because it is very important. If we look at
:41:53. > :41:58.relatively poor growth which we had had it is because a lot of work has
:41:58. > :42:03.been stalled because of that. If Lord Heseltine is saying that we
:42:03. > :42:07.need city regions with real power and resources, that is the sort of
:42:07. > :42:14.thing I would be interested in. But as he said himself, his report will
:42:14. > :42:19.go down like a ton of bricks in parts of Whitehall. MPs like David
:42:19. > :42:23.and I need to champion this. think we probably agree on this. I
:42:23. > :42:29.would like to come back to the regional development agencies.
:42:29. > :42:34.Isn't it a bit of an old argument? We did abolish them, that is true.
:42:34. > :42:39.Peter Mandelson reduced their budget in his last year. It that
:42:39. > :42:45.was the way to get we chopped red, white was so much spent on them in
:42:45. > :42:55.London and the south-east. -- if that was the way to get red, white
:42:55. > :42:56.
:42:56. > :42:59.was the budget increased in the south and south-east? We have
:42:59. > :43:08.looked at local enterprise partnerships. Does that sound
:43:08. > :43:13.feasible? I think it is but there are questions about whether or not
:43:13. > :43:21.be MEPs and combined authority models will be appropriate for
:43:21. > :43:25.handling public money. But the fact his it is generally a week and non-
:43:25. > :43:30.statutory body. It is difficult for them to fulfil that role but we
:43:30. > :43:37.will see. Yet another reason why we have not seen the growth George
:43:37. > :43:41.Osborne said that we would get. Yes, the argument is one we have had.
:43:41. > :43:44.But what is important in my constituency is that the economy in
:43:44. > :43:50.the North West is growing and it has not been doing as well as it
:43:50. > :43:55.should so far. It this can change policy then that is a good thing.
:43:55. > :43:59.It does seem like he was saying that the Government has done a
:43:59. > :44:06.great job on the economy but I can think of 89 things to make it
:44:06. > :44:11.better. It is not a new thing. Lord Heseltine has gone out of his way
:44:11. > :44:16.in the report to say that he wanted to add to what is happening. A lot
:44:16. > :44:21.of it is quite sensible. Like looking at boundaries. Do you think
:44:21. > :44:26.the Government will follow this report through? I hope it is used
:44:26. > :44:33.as one of the ways to get power to the regions and we need that in the
:44:34. > :44:36.North West. I suspect everybody This week, more developments over
:44:37. > :44:39.the failure to decide who runs trains on the West Coast Mainline.
:44:40. > :44:42.E-mails are being checked to see if the civil service was deliberately
:44:42. > :44:45.trying to stop Richard Branson's Virgin Rail continuing. And there
:44:45. > :44:47.was a Commons statement with the findings of the official inquiry so
:44:48. > :44:57.far, which blamed "an accumulation of significant errors" within the
:44:58. > :44:58.
:44:58. > :45:04.Transport Department. Labour was However the Secretary of State
:45:04. > :45:10.spends it, it is a fiasco with not one but four Cabinet Minister's
:45:10. > :45:13.fingerprints all over it. This is an important time for the region's
:45:13. > :45:15.railways - with an announcement expected soon on the route for the
:45:15. > :45:25.proposed High Speed Trains, HS2. Naomi Cornwell's been checking if
:45:25. > :45:29.It's our main route from the North West to London and Glasgow, but its
:45:29. > :45:32.future is uncertain. In August, First Group won the franchise to
:45:32. > :45:35.run the West coast Mainline - only for it to be temporarily handed
:45:35. > :45:39.back to Virgin after criticism of the bidding process. That's left
:45:39. > :45:44.Blackpool in limbo. The resort had been promised a new direct service
:45:44. > :45:51.from London, but there's no guarantee that will now happen.
:45:51. > :45:57.are disappointed that it is not on the table. But we will be lobbying
:45:57. > :46:03.any interested party to say that a rounded it must include direct
:46:03. > :46:06.entrants to Blackpool. -- entrance. And with a local economy heavily
:46:06. > :46:11.reliant on tourists, hotels like this say it would make a big
:46:11. > :46:17.difference. We must look at the benefits that link would bring.
:46:17. > :46:23.Some people cannot -- currently cannot get to Blackpool. If the
:46:23. > :46:27.link does happen then yes, it would be a benefit. At the end of next
:46:27. > :46:30.year, the contest to run the line will open again. But some believe
:46:30. > :46:34.the way such contracts are awarded will always lead to problems.
:46:34. > :46:39.we need to do is move towards the German or the French model way you
:46:39. > :46:45.have got franchising in this form which would not exist. You would
:46:45. > :46:47.have the German national railway operator or equivalent in France.
:46:47. > :46:55.They do these services and account for themselves in the normal ways
:46:55. > :46:58.in which she would have to call that service. -- for that service.
:46:58. > :47:03.The Transport Secretary insists taxpayers will get value for money.
:47:03. > :47:11.A lot of money has been invested because it is a very important line.
:47:11. > :47:15.We have got more trains running and we have got to make sure that this
:47:15. > :47:19.investment is made good. Blackpool could now be waiting until 2014
:47:19. > :47:23.before it finds out whether it will get its connection to the capital.
:47:23. > :47:26.Whereas Warrington is hoping for a speedier service to and from London.
:47:26. > :47:29.The proposed high speed route north of Birmingham is due to be revealed
:47:29. > :47:36.before the end of this year. And local businesses say they are
:47:36. > :47:42.relying on HS2 stopping here. my perspective, might think it will
:47:42. > :47:46.be a massive benefit. A lot of people in the area are very keen to
:47:46. > :47:50.not talk about the recession and it is investment like this in
:47:50. > :47:52.infrastructure which is driving jobs and opportunities. This firm
:47:53. > :47:58.in Warrington offers services like HR and accounting to other
:47:58. > :48:03.businesses around the country. of my clients are based in London
:48:03. > :48:08.and that is why the station is a five-minute walk away. It is really
:48:08. > :48:13.vital to have that link to London. But we want headquarters here
:48:13. > :48:17.because back of his support staff are based up in Warrington. It is
:48:17. > :48:23.vital that if it was not here, we would have to look at relocating
:48:23. > :48:28.head office. The fear is that if towns like this are bypassed by HS2,
:48:28. > :48:31.their economies could lose out to those of major cities. New routes
:48:31. > :48:34.and faster trains are all very attractive, but this is the daily
:48:34. > :48:36.reality for many rail travellers in the North West. Crammed into
:48:37. > :48:44.carriages like sardines. Many have resorted to filming their commute
:48:44. > :48:48.as evidence of the problem of overcrowding. If you travel
:48:48. > :48:54.anywhere around Germany, Denmark, the Netherlands, you will get
:48:54. > :49:01.double-deck trains for example. We did not want that. Have we got a
:49:01. > :49:06.reason why we cannot have them? It is not practical or feasible? I do
:49:06. > :49:13.not believe that. We have to deal with overcrowding and we will not
:49:13. > :49:18.deal with that like this. We need to match the motorway investments
:49:18. > :49:21.with investments here. With more of us than ever before choosing to
:49:21. > :49:29.travel by train, everyone agrees changes are needed to keep the
:49:29. > :49:35.We are also joined from London by the rail analyst, Christian Wolmar.
:49:35. > :49:39.We know that the Government badly handled the franchising of the west
:49:39. > :49:46.coast mainline. But the Government position is that it will not affect
:49:46. > :49:52.passengers and commuters. Do you agree? Well, I do not. As we have
:49:52. > :49:58.seen in Blackpool, that was a good example. Franchises usually come
:49:58. > :50:05.with a bag of tricks. Extra train services and rolling stock. Maybe
:50:05. > :50:11.some investment on tracks. That has been delayed by what must be called
:50:11. > :50:20.a total franchise the Askett. that fiasco if we -- a total
:50:20. > :50:23.franchise disaster. And they are then going to have an interim
:50:24. > :50:30.franchise bidding process and then a bidding for the full franchise.
:50:30. > :50:35.Is that going to happen? You could not make it up. It is right out of
:50:35. > :50:40.a script. We have got a temporary and an interim and a permanent
:50:40. > :50:44.franchise. It is just nonsense. They have got into this mess
:50:44. > :50:50.because they did not want to hand over temporary running to directly
:50:50. > :50:54.operated railways, which already operates on the east coast. It is a
:50:54. > :50:59.nationalised operator. They did not want that for political reasons.
:50:59. > :51:03.They have given it to Virgin but not for too long because it would
:51:03. > :51:08.breach the regulations. It will cost more money and it is daft they
:51:08. > :51:17.did not allow its key department in their straight away to run it on a
:51:17. > :51:27.temporary basis. Ali when barrister, David? It was -- Ali were
:51:27. > :51:28.
:51:28. > :51:32.embarrassed? In Barrack -- embarrassing, David? It was tough
:51:32. > :51:37.to give it to be searching for a couple of years because of
:51:37. > :51:44.regulations. But we have got to get the new franchise over quickly.
:51:44. > :51:48.terms of problems, should they have been resignations? I have said in
:51:48. > :51:52.Parliament that I am not clear what the permanent secretary of a
:51:52. > :51:58.department is for if he is not for taking accountability for something
:51:58. > :52:04.like best. It seems to be an error in the engine room and that would
:52:04. > :52:12.be my opinion. He should have resigned? Yes. Where does this
:52:12. > :52:19.leave trains? De support nationalisation? The big concern
:52:19. > :52:24.here is the Department for transport. If you look at what has
:52:24. > :52:29.happened here, we seem to have a department which has lost control
:52:29. > :52:34.of the process. That is extremely worrying. Christian made a good
:52:34. > :52:40.point about the directly operated rail on the east coast and what the
:52:40. > :52:44.role of that could have been here. It is bizarre that not only have we
:52:45. > :52:48.have expensive problems in this process, but now we are having
:52:48. > :52:56.another franchising process and another and you have got to ask if
:52:56. > :53:00.that is best for the public. What about nationalisation? We have got
:53:01. > :53:06.to look at the problems now and resolve them. We all agree with
:53:06. > :53:10.that. There is not an easy answer. Part of the reason for that is
:53:10. > :53:16.because if you look at how privatisation was done and PCs
:53:16. > :53:22.being taken apart, we have not got one answer. -- pieces being taken
:53:22. > :53:28.apart. We have got to use the lessons learned on the east coast
:53:28. > :53:36.and try and apply some of them to this situation and try and get a
:53:36. > :53:39.scenario where passengers can rely on services in future. We can talk
:53:39. > :53:47.about high-speed trains next. This is what the Transport Secretary had
:53:47. > :53:51.to say this week about HS2. Government are determined to bring
:53:51. > :53:57.HS2 and serve Manchester and Leeds. Manchester will benefit from the
:53:57. > :54:04.start. You will get faster journeys up to Manchester and not just to
:54:04. > :54:11.Birmingham. Christian, will high- speed trains be needed and will
:54:11. > :54:16.they be value-for-money? I am sceptical about this. �32 billion
:54:16. > :54:23.was the original estimate to bring it to Manchester and Leeds. But big
:54:23. > :54:29.projects tend to overrun with cost and time. I think a lot could be
:54:29. > :54:33.done to improve existing services. We have got a downside. I heard
:54:33. > :54:38.earlier that people in Warrington are hoping that the high-speed line
:54:38. > :54:43.will come to them but I do not think that is likely to be the case.
:54:43. > :54:53.We will probably have won station in the North West, and at most, two
:54:53. > :54:58.which is unlikely. -- one station. We are not going to have three per
:54:58. > :55:01.hour on the west coast Mainline if we have got a HS2. Intermediate
:55:01. > :55:06.stops like Crewe and Stockport might suffer and Liverpool might
:55:06. > :55:11.not have as good a service. It will not be seen to be competing as well
:55:11. > :55:16.against Manchester. We have got wider issues than saying that we
:55:16. > :55:24.are going to solve all our problems. What about if he is right and we
:55:24. > :55:30.have not got a HS2 for Liverpool? We have not got to that stage yet.
:55:30. > :55:34.We do not know what that route will be. The most important principle is
:55:34. > :55:39.about planning and infrastructure long term. West coast Mainline is
:55:39. > :55:44.pretty much full as it is. Are we going to plan infrastructure for
:55:44. > :55:49.the future? Will we say in the long term that we need to invest in High
:55:49. > :55:55.Speed Rail which is what we should do? Then decide about what stations
:55:55. > :56:01.and service patterns we want in future. David, what if it does not
:56:01. > :56:05.come into Warrington? Christian said 32 billion which is a lot. We
:56:05. > :56:11.spend 20 billion on Crossrail in London which had a worse business
:56:11. > :56:21.plan from the outset than HS2 it. If we have got the money for that
:56:21. > :56:27.we have got the money for HS2 as Time for the rest of the week's
:56:27. > :56:30.news now with Ryan Mills in 60 seconds. 1,200 hundred jobs could
:56:30. > :56:32.be secured in Barrow after the announcement of the next generation
:56:33. > :56:37.of nuclear submarines. But a firm decision isn't expected until the
:56:37. > :56:40.next Parliament. Liverpool city council has approved plans for a
:56:40. > :56:43.community sports centre dedicated to the memory of Rhys Jones. Rhys's
:56:43. > :56:51.memorial fund is providing a quarter of a million pounds for the
:56:51. > :56:54.project. That is all he ever wanted to do is, playing football. Bottom
:56:54. > :56:56.of the class. Local universities say they have lost millions of
:56:56. > :56:59.pounds and hundreds of students because of the introduction of
:56:59. > :57:02.tuition fees. 80 jobs are under threat in Bolton because of
:57:02. > :57:04.unfilled places. Liverpool MP Steve Rotheram cited Hillsborough as he
:57:04. > :57:10.accused the Prime Minister of briefing against the findings of
:57:10. > :57:14.the Leveson inquiry. Whose side are you on? Public or press? We know
:57:14. > :57:17.what it should look like but we do not have it now and we need it in
:57:17. > :57:20.future. And going quackers for Mitt. The Republican presidential
:57:20. > :57:30.candidate has an unlikely fan in the Deepdale Duck. Preston's mascot
:57:30. > :57:32.
:57:32. > :57:39.is married to Mr Romney's third And talking about that, by this
:57:39. > :57:43.time next week, we will know who is the next US president. Who will you
:57:43. > :57:50.be voting for or do I need to ask? I will be supporting President
:57:50. > :57:57.Obama. Some people say he has been disappointing to. It has been a
:57:57. > :58:02.difficult time Gallipoli and I think he has made great progress in
:58:02. > :58:08.-- difficult time politically but he has made great progress and he
:58:08. > :58:13.represents progressive politics. David? I think President Obama has
:58:13. > :58:17.been disappointing in office but I would support him, just. Mostly on
:58:17. > :58:21.foreign policy, there are a couple of things Mitt Romney has set in
:58:21. > :58:25.the Middle East and on Palestine and Iran in particular which
:58:25. > :58:32.bothered me a bit and I will support President Obama but perhaps
:58:32. > :58:38.not as happily as Alison. Do you find these elections as exciting as
:58:38. > :58:43.British politics? There is nothing as exciting as British politics!