:01:32. > :01:35.In the North West: poll tax Mark 2. A warning that reforms to council
:01:36. > :01:45.tax benefit could prompt a backlash and local councils say it will hit
:01:46. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :37:30.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2144 seconds
:37:30. > :37:36.Hello. Coming up in the North West. 22 years after the poll tax riots,
:37:36. > :37:41.and benefit reform that some say could be as volatile. We are a fair
:37:41. > :37:46.and decent society. I think we will see a backlash as the public
:37:46. > :37:49.realises what is happening with these changes. My guests are to
:37:49. > :37:53.work the big names in local government in the region. Geoff
:37:53. > :37:57.Driver is Conservative leader of Lancashire County Council and
:37:57. > :38:02.Labour's Sir Richard Leese leads Manchester City Council. You what
:38:02. > :38:09.trying to make ends meet. As we head to the next year of budgets,
:38:09. > :38:14.Sir Richard Leese, How's it going? It will be difficult. The cuts for
:38:14. > :38:20.Manchester are too fast and not fair. We had to take 25% of the
:38:20. > :38:25.Budget. We are looking at another 15%. We will not find out how much
:38:25. > :38:29.we have to cut until six weeks before we have to make decisions.
:38:29. > :38:34.It will be a one-year settlement with no opportunity to plan for the
:38:34. > :38:41.future. The way we are being treated is very bad. It will
:38:41. > :38:47.reflect on services. As difficult for you? It is difficult. It is
:38:47. > :38:51.going to be tough. When we get the -- got the comprehensive spending
:38:51. > :38:56.review we did a three-year budget and that helped because we have
:38:56. > :39:02.made the changes in a considered and better way. We are probably not
:39:02. > :39:07.in a bad place. As Richard said, it will depend on the announcement.
:39:07. > :39:11.And we will talk about council tax benefits later. The recent conflict
:39:11. > :39:17.in Afghanistan and Iraq have increased the poignancy of
:39:18. > :39:21.Remembrance Day. What duty do we owe to those injured by conflict?
:39:21. > :39:27.The Military Veterans Service is unique in the region, helping 600
:39:27. > :39:34.people in its first year. As the NHS is reorganised, it is not clear
:39:34. > :39:38.it will be funded again next year. It is the time of year when
:39:39. > :39:44.whatever the political allegiance, we pay respects to those who
:39:44. > :39:47.dedicate their bodies and minds to serve Britain. Terry is one of 600
:39:47. > :39:51.veterans to have used the mental help support group Military
:39:51. > :39:55.Veterans Service. He was deeply affected after leading a patrol
:39:55. > :40:01.ambushed in Northern Ireland and said Helen pulled him out of the
:40:02. > :40:06.darkness. She took the brick wall down brick by brick. That sounds
:40:06. > :40:11.silly, but she sought to put her hands inside me and rearrange
:40:11. > :40:17.everything in my head. The service is now fighting for its own
:40:17. > :40:22.survival. If the NHS is reorganise, the body that commission the
:40:22. > :40:26.service is about to disappear and be replaced by 33 clusters of GPs.
:40:26. > :40:31.They are still finding their own feet and are not ready to say where
:40:31. > :40:37.they will spend. The service support service personnel in the
:40:37. > :40:43.North West and provides crucial support. As things change, nobody
:40:43. > :40:46.is committed to future funding. This service is needed.
:40:46. > :40:51.Government say they are confident that new commissioning groups will
:40:51. > :40:58.make the right decisions. That is not a guarantee for veterans such
:40:58. > :41:04.as Terry. I went for almost 40 years saying I had no problem.
:41:04. > :41:10.Until it happens. And it happened. I needed somebody to talk to.
:41:10. > :41:17.said it took 15 sessions to field he was making progress. In 15 weeks
:41:17. > :41:22.the service could be closing its doors.
:41:22. > :41:30.The this is part of a wider series of changes, our other services such
:41:30. > :41:36.as Honourable? -- are they vulnerable? A lot of services will
:41:36. > :41:41.automatically roll over. Do not panic. The problem is for a service
:41:41. > :41:47.like this which is a pilot. Instead of seeking funding from one
:41:47. > :41:55.organisation, it has to go to 33, which is complicated. With changes
:41:55. > :42:00.around the corner, it had -- has to happen by April. They are uncertain
:42:00. > :42:05.about the future. One about the specific service for veterans?
:42:05. > :42:10.Department of Health said they will invest �1.8 million every year in
:42:10. > :42:14.mental health services for veterans, but it does not guarantee the
:42:14. > :42:16.specific service. They have spoken to some of the biggest
:42:16. > :42:21.commissionaires and they are confident they want to maintain the
:42:21. > :42:27.service. Sir Richard Leese, how concerned
:42:27. > :42:31.are you when you hear those reports? Very concerned. If I add
:42:32. > :42:37.that to other reports, with public health been transferred to local
:42:37. > :42:41.authorities, it looks like we will have more contracts transferred at
:42:41. > :42:47.money transferred and so there are a lot of services, like the one we
:42:47. > :42:53.heard about, which will be vulnerable. Every time you get rid
:42:53. > :42:59.of a service, it will be a service to somebody. That is the case. It
:42:59. > :43:03.is Remembrance Sunday. We have had recent conflicts in Iraq and
:43:03. > :43:09.Afghanistan, bringing it home to us, the importance services these
:43:09. > :43:13.people provide for everyone. We owe it to them. We ought to have
:43:13. > :43:18.arrangements that allow us to maintain a key service. Geoff
:43:18. > :43:22.Driver, there are lots of soldiers based in Lancashire. We have
:43:23. > :43:29.reported on the Duke of Lancaster's regiment and their homecoming a
:43:29. > :43:34.couple of years ago. When you hear about this, I think you have a
:43:34. > :43:40.service yourself that Lancashire County Council runs. We do. It is
:43:40. > :43:48.the uncertainty that is the concern. They are vital services to very
:43:48. > :43:53.vulnerable people. We want that uncertainty cleared up quickly. We
:43:53. > :43:59.do have our own service that we are introducing. We set �3 million
:43:59. > :44:05.aside to get veterans to go into schools, to mentor young people who
:44:05. > :44:12.might go off the rails. That is a benefit to children who might
:44:12. > :44:16.become not to be in education, employment or training. It was part
:44:16. > :44:22.of the three-year budget. Because we did it that way, currently we
:44:22. > :44:28.can put news services in to the tune of �50 million. This is �3
:44:28. > :44:36.million of it, to employee veterans and put them into schools. In this
:44:36. > :44:40.year, we have two pilot. We hope to run it across the county next year.
:44:40. > :44:45.Perhaps that is something you could consider? We will look at that.
:44:45. > :44:49.have made changes to the housing policies so that we are better able
:44:50. > :44:57.to house veterans when they come out of service. We are looking at
:44:57. > :45:05.ways we can support veterans. you discovered extra pressures in
:45:06. > :45:09.terms of the extra veterans? What changes is the number of younger
:45:09. > :45:14.people who are veterans. That makes a difference because they are
:45:14. > :45:17.people who will have most of their life ahead of them. That makes a
:45:17. > :45:22.difference to planning to support them.
:45:22. > :45:27.Next April, �500 million is being cut from the council tax benefit
:45:27. > :45:31.budget, about 10% of the total. The responsibility of making up the
:45:31. > :45:37.shortfall will be down to local councils and every claimant will
:45:37. > :45:45.probably have to pay something, if they are of working age. The man
:45:45. > :45:49.responsible for an infamous tax is warning of danger.
:45:49. > :45:54.March 31st, 1990, the eve of the introduction of the community
:45:54. > :46:00.charge. Anti-poll tax campaigners demonstrated in London when
:46:00. > :46:04.violence broke out. A senior member of the Margaret Thatcher government,
:46:04. > :46:08.Lord Jenkin, told the BBC he is not proud of dreaming up the poll tax.
:46:09. > :46:14.He christened the reduction in funding available for council tax
:46:14. > :46:19.benefit, poll tax two. He said the same mistakes are being repeated
:46:20. > :46:24.and he warns of a backlash. That is also echoed by a senior member of a
:46:24. > :46:29.northern council. We are a fair and decent society and I think we will
:46:29. > :46:34.see a backlash as the public realises what is happening. Alan
:46:34. > :46:39.Crombie cares for his ten-year-old daughter. His family is dependent
:46:39. > :46:44.on benefits, including council tax benefit. He is worried his finances
:46:44. > :46:50.will be stretched to breaking point if he loses it. I am scared we will
:46:50. > :46:53.be hit. If they do not ask people to pay a percentage towards council
:46:53. > :47:02.tax, they will have to find the money from another budget, which
:47:02. > :47:07.could affect us, those with children with a disability.
:47:07. > :47:11.Services could be cut and have any impact on our lives. There could be
:47:11. > :47:17.challenging times ahead for thousands of families across the
:47:17. > :47:23.North West. What about the local authorities? Under the new system,
:47:23. > :47:29.Liverpool City Council will lose �6.2 million, 10% of its annual �62
:47:29. > :47:35.million council tax benefit budget. We can either pass the cuts to the
:47:35. > :47:39.householder has, asking every household on benefit to pay
:47:39. > :47:44.something. Secondly, we could make cuts elsewhere in the council,
:47:44. > :47:51.which would affect many of the same households, thirdly, we could have
:47:51. > :47:54.a combination of the two. The majority of responses so far have
:47:54. > :47:59.supported passing the cuts down to the council tax benefit recipients.
:47:59. > :48:03.It is predicted that the new system will be unwieldy with councils
:48:03. > :48:09.chasing the least well-off for small amounts of money. It will
:48:09. > :48:14.make the system more complicated, not less. It may well end up with
:48:14. > :48:24.different systems across different parts of the country. Based on this
:48:24. > :48:32.
:48:32. > :48:37.year, Preston City Council said it Some groups are protected from the
:48:38. > :48:41.cuts. The 25% discount for households with one adult will
:48:41. > :48:45.continue and councils are barred from reducing council tax benefit
:48:45. > :48:50.for pensioners. The idea of protecting pensioners is causing a
:48:50. > :48:53.headache here in Ribble Valley. More than half the people claim the
:48:53. > :48:58.benefit here are on a pension. It does not leave the council with
:48:58. > :49:01.room for manoeuvre. They consider reducing the shortfall by using
:49:01. > :49:06.income from council tax taken from second homes. But the Government
:49:06. > :49:13.has come up with a possible alternative. We understand the
:49:13. > :49:18.Government has another scheme, to offer transitional relief, A Grant,
:49:18. > :49:22.to assist authorities like us. We would bid for this. It would help
:49:22. > :49:28.us to give us a breathing space to look at other ways of dealing with
:49:28. > :49:33.this. What would you say to politicians bring in this plan in?
:49:33. > :49:40.Come and live in our place for a week, without TV cameras, come and
:49:40. > :49:45.live and see what we have to live with day-in, day-out. Live what we
:49:45. > :49:49.have to live on in the middle of the winter. You debate whether to
:49:49. > :49:54.put the heating on. You have to find this money to pay for the
:49:54. > :49:57.council tax. Earlier this week I spoke to the
:49:57. > :50:06.local government minister and asked him why the Government is reducing
:50:06. > :50:13.council tax support. The benefit has doubled over their last
:50:13. > :50:17.government. The Government took a decision to say that what we do
:50:17. > :50:21.with local authorities is by giving them local power, giving them
:50:21. > :50:26.discretion, is that they can come up with effective schemes that are
:50:26. > :50:29.best for their residents. Effectively, you are saying we will
:50:29. > :50:34.give you less money to deal with the same problem, but now it is
:50:34. > :50:38.your problem. The reason the Department put �100 million into
:50:38. > :50:44.this is that we are putting money up front. Local authorities will
:50:44. > :50:50.get the money if they want it next March. Over the course of the year,
:50:50. > :50:55.they can put in place what programmes they have to put people
:50:55. > :51:00.into work and find savings from elsewhere and as they go for what
:51:00. > :51:05.they can run the scheme. If there is local growth, they will have
:51:05. > :51:10.benefit from that. If you take Manchester, they have decided that
:51:10. > :51:16.everybody for the first time will have to pay at least 15% of their
:51:16. > :51:20.council tax bill. If you are on a low income, that will hit you hard.
:51:20. > :51:27.It is a shame. The Government is saying they will put in support so
:51:27. > :51:31.that nobody will pay more than 8.5 at most. There is an opportunity to
:51:31. > :51:39.look after people in their community and help them back into
:51:40. > :51:45.work. It is their decision on what scheme to run. Whether they take
:51:45. > :51:49.advantage of the scheme of money offered by central government.
:51:49. > :51:55.this is perceived as being unfair and more people are paying this tax,
:51:55. > :52:01.you have a poll tax situation perhaps. Local authorities should
:52:01. > :52:06.do what they should do, looking after local communities. It would
:52:06. > :52:11.be horrendous if they started playing politics. But you are a one
:52:11. > :52:16.cutting back, by 10% of what they need. We have a plan and a benefit
:52:16. > :52:22.system that has doubled over the last government. That has to be got
:52:22. > :52:26.under control. Sir Richard Leese, does it remain the case that
:52:26. > :52:33.Manchester City Council, people paying council tax, will pay a
:52:33. > :52:38.minimum of 15%? The consultation is for a maximum of 15%. We will
:52:38. > :52:47.consider the outcome of the consultation. What do you mean by a
:52:47. > :52:57.maximum? Of the council tax bill, people currently entitled to 100%
:52:57. > :53:04.would not have to pay more than 15% of that bill. That remains the plan.
:53:04. > :53:09.We have looked at the transitional scheme. It is for one year only. As
:53:09. > :53:16.far as we can see it would cost us �2 million to get the �1 million
:53:16. > :53:22.from government. That is because in order to get down to the 8.5% mark,
:53:22. > :53:25.�1 million will not do it. It would need another �2 million at -- on
:53:25. > :53:33.top of that. Could you take the money to bring it down whatever per
:53:33. > :53:40.cent? It is 8.5% or nothing. We do not get anything unless we bring it
:53:40. > :53:45.down to 8.5%. Liverpool City Council said to do that it means
:53:45. > :53:51.cutting other services. ministers said it is a shame that
:53:51. > :53:55.Manchester City Council is not doing more to help people. It is a
:53:55. > :54:00.shame the Government is taking the money away. They are cutting this
:54:00. > :54:04.money. They talk about bringing down the benefits bill. That is
:54:04. > :54:09.going up at the moment under this government. They talk about getting
:54:09. > :54:13.people into work. Where is the growth being generated to create
:54:13. > :54:20.jobs? The Government is not creating growth. Benefit cuts are
:54:20. > :54:24.popular. Opinion polls say so. I wonder that if in 12 months when we
:54:24. > :54:29.see working families losing their houses, and we see carers not able
:54:29. > :54:34.to feed their children, we will see lots of examples, whether they will
:54:34. > :54:41.be so popular then. Geoff Driver, the main thrust of that is that the
:54:41. > :54:46.changes are not fair. That is the argument. I think it is important
:54:46. > :54:50.to remember, putting it into perspective, about the way council
:54:51. > :54:58.tax has risen and there for the benefit has risen and something
:54:58. > :55:06.needs to be done. My concern is that the danger is it will impact
:55:06. > :55:09.too much on the most vulnerable. What we are doing, we do not
:55:09. > :55:14.collect the council tax, we have a precept on the District Council,
:55:14. > :55:21.and so we are not consulting on a methodology to get over this
:55:21. > :55:26.problem. What we are doing is trying in advance to prepare to
:55:26. > :55:31.protect the most vulnerable in the way that they might be affected.
:55:31. > :55:35.The first thing we can do is to minimise the actual council tax
:55:35. > :55:41.increase and in the last three years we have frozen council tax.
:55:41. > :55:46.It is an open secret we will freeze it again. The way to do that is to
:55:46. > :55:51.maximise the benefits that Lancashire gets. Do you think the
:55:51. > :55:56.changes are fair? It is not a question of whether they are fair,
:55:56. > :56:00.it is a question that they are a fact. We are trying to minimise the
:56:00. > :56:06.impact on the most vulnerable. We are making sure the most vulnerable
:56:06. > :56:11.get the maximum benefit and we have a very good welfare right set-up.
:56:11. > :56:15.Also, we are working with district councils to make sure that
:56:15. > :56:22.everybody entitled to a free school meal gets it. There are measures
:56:22. > :56:25.you can take to mitigate. Government is cutting advice
:56:25. > :56:30.services and so the ability to support the most vulnerable and
:56:30. > :56:35.give them advice is being cut. This is a factor and as local councils
:56:35. > :56:40.we have to deal with those and to protect the most vulnerable. You
:56:40. > :56:45.asked if it was fair and the answer is no. What about the issue that we
:56:45. > :56:50.have to get the deficit down. have to get it down, but getting
:56:50. > :56:53.the deficit down in a way that hits the most vulnerable people in this
:56:53. > :56:59.country and does nothing to promote growth and create jobs, that will
:56:59. > :57:05.not give us a solution. I never hear the alternative plans. An
:57:05. > :57:11.example might be to put up council tax for those who can afford it.
:57:11. > :57:16.There are a lot of alternative plans. A more important than would
:57:16. > :57:22.be to invest in infrastructure and growth so that when we do create
:57:22. > :57:27.jobs, in the way other countries have been doing. In it is a problem.
:57:27. > :57:35.In terms of advice centres and making sure people claim the right
:57:35. > :57:40.benefit, we have tried to make sure that is our priority. Replacing it
:57:40. > :57:44.with our own funds. It will be difficult but it is up to local-
:57:44. > :57:50.authority leaders to minimise the impact on the most lovable. It is
:57:50. > :57:54.time for the rest of the week's news.
:57:54. > :57:58.The Conservative Party says there will be an investigation into
:57:58. > :58:02.claims the former Chester MP Sir Peter Morrison was involved in
:58:02. > :58:07.child abuse. He visited her home in Wales at centre of allegations that
:58:07. > :58:14.all time before he died -- a children's home. Wind farms are to
:58:14. > :58:19.be built in Cheshire and residents oppose the scheme. Those behind it
:58:19. > :58:25.say it will cut emissions. Blighted by poverty and drink and drug
:58:26. > :58:32.problems, in Blackpool -- Blackburn councillor asks to tackle the
:58:32. > :58:37.problem. Aim Rome any gypsy family threatened with eviction is taking
:58:37. > :58:40.Tory councils to the High Court -- remedy gypsy. They have lived on a
:58:40. > :58:46.green-belt site for four years but the council said they are harming
:58:46. > :58:56.their land. And the famous monkey puzzle tree has been felled. Park
:58:56. > :59:01.officials said it did not need part of the original design.
:59:01. > :59:05.And a reminder that elections are taking place this Thursday. There
:59:05. > :59:10.is a by-election for the parliamentary seat of Manchester
:59:10. > :59:16.Central and on the same day we have the elections for Police and Crime
:59:16. > :59:21.Commissioners across the region. You will be able to here overnight
:59:21. > :59:27.results of the by-election on BBC Radio Manchester on Friday morning
:59:27. > :59:30.and in breakfast bulletins on BBC One. And local radio stations and
:59:30. > :59:35.TV news programmes will have more on the police elections and we
:59:35. > :59:40.might be speaking to one of the winners here next week. It will be
:59:40. > :59:46.super Thursday. I used super excited? November 15th is not the
:59:46. > :59:50.best time to have an election. These are elections are important.
:59:50. > :59:55.People need to turn out and vote. And what about your sense in terms
:59:55. > :00:00.of people being interested? They are important. It is not the best
:00:00. > :00:04.time to have an election. The parties have tried to persuade
:00:04. > :00:07.people to avail themselves of the postal vote keep voting up. It is