:01:24. > :01:27.In the North West: Power to the People - why these
:01:27. > :01:37.Lancashire voters are summoning the winds of change at the town hall.
:01:37. > :01:37.
:01:37. > :37:06.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2128 seconds
:37:06. > :37:10.They want a referendum on how Hello. Coming up in the North West:
:37:10. > :37:15.power to the people - why these locals are trying to summon the
:37:15. > :37:19.winds of change at the Town Hall. When we are not allowed to debate
:37:19. > :37:24.it and only those seven that make that decision, that is not
:37:24. > :37:33.democratic. To discuss local democracy and the rest of the news,
:37:33. > :37:37.one of Labour's longest serving MPs said Gerald Kaufman. And David
:37:37. > :37:40.Morris the Conservative MP for Morecambe and Lunesdale. Let's
:37:40. > :37:47.start with a serving of horsemeat because the food scandal escalated
:37:47. > :37:53.on Friday. 47 schools in Lancashire have accidentally served horsemeat
:37:53. > :37:59.in cottage pie. How concerned are you buy it back, David? I am
:37:59. > :38:05.appalled. Thankfully we have got an F S A standard laboratory here they
:38:05. > :38:11.can test and find out what is going on. It is 10 years since the last
:38:11. > :38:16.Test have taken place at a. I know the head of education is working on
:38:16. > :38:23.this. It is a very recent development, but something clearly
:38:23. > :38:27.should be done. The it is 47 schools, trace elements of
:38:27. > :38:35.horsemeat but could this have been going on for a long time? It is
:38:35. > :38:40.evident it has been. It is appalling that it is going on in
:38:40. > :38:47.our schools. There is no health risks issues at this moment in time,
:38:47. > :38:53.however, it should not be happening. Sir Gerald, is this the most
:38:54. > :39:00.serious development now? It is extraordinarily serious that
:39:00. > :39:06.children whose diet will decide what they are physically, right
:39:06. > :39:15.through to adulthood, are being infected in some cases quite likely
:39:15. > :39:20.as a result of the Medical inadequacies of the meat. It is a
:39:20. > :39:29.very important episode because it tells us important things about our
:39:29. > :39:36.society. On the one hand... There were no health implications? Their
:39:37. > :39:41.wrath. It is conceivable, nobody knows for show, but it is
:39:41. > :39:47.conceivable that some of the horse meat may have been effected. That
:39:47. > :39:50.is what the press is reporting the possibility of. The horsemeat
:39:50. > :39:57.scandal started in Ireland, cross into Europe and has embroiled one
:39:57. > :40:00.of our most famous sporting arenas. Operations at an abattoir in
:40:00. > :40:06.Todmorden were suspended. It also emerged that the same abattoir had
:40:06. > :40:10.a contract with Aintree to remove the carcasses of some horses put
:40:10. > :40:14.down there. The racecourse as a passport system and close liaison
:40:14. > :40:20.with licensees means carcasses will not enter the food chain but some
:40:20. > :40:25.say stricter safeguards are needed. The Iraq 75 passport issuing
:40:25. > :40:30.organisations in the UK. It is a system that is open to widespread
:40:30. > :40:34.abuse. It needs further enforcement and so the whole system needs a
:40:34. > :40:38.radical change because at the moment it is not working. But as
:40:38. > :40:46.the scandal gallops on, when it curve the public appetite for cheap
:40:46. > :40:51.meat? 1819 and famine made worse by laws
:40:51. > :40:55.protecting local landowners against competition from cheaper foreign
:40:55. > :41:00.grain leads to the Peter Newman just -- massacre. By the middle of
:41:00. > :41:05.the century, Robert Peel had scrapped the Corn Laws paving the
:41:05. > :41:11.way for affordable food. Now, could that appetite for a cheap meal lie
:41:11. > :41:14.behind the scandal? It would be good if customers started to
:41:14. > :41:19.realise they are good quality food costs and sometimes the costs are
:41:19. > :41:24.being driven down. Operation is at the Peter Boddy slaughterhouse was
:41:24. > :41:27.stopped this week. The owners deny any wrongdoing but at the local
:41:27. > :41:33.markets some customers' sake the developments have affected their
:41:33. > :41:39.shopping choices. I do not trust it now. You do not know what you're
:41:39. > :41:44.getting. If you buy from your local butcher, you are more confident.
:41:44. > :41:48.Farmers like Bill Mellor feared the whole supply chain of British beef
:41:48. > :41:53.has been undermined leading to unprecedented demand for meat from
:41:53. > :41:58.independent butchers, who can prove where it has come from. When it
:41:58. > :42:06.first started we thought, what is happening now? Will it put people
:42:06. > :42:10.off need? I supply a small butcher. It is trading at -- its trade in
:42:10. > :42:17.beef burgers has sought. By it that comes at a cost at Haymarket
:42:17. > :42:21.stripped to the bare bones. George Osborne did not fancy this ready
:42:21. > :42:27.meal and expose success of the girls -- governments have that the
:42:27. > :42:32.appetite to maintain standards. The inspection work force of the FISA
:42:32. > :42:37.has almost halved. The government has been cutting inspections, the
:42:37. > :42:42.meat inspection has been cut and trading standards have been cut.
:42:42. > :42:47.This is a rather nasty illustration of what happens when an industry
:42:47. > :42:51.thinks it is not being audited. The the FSA has promised a relentless
:42:51. > :42:54.investigation by the European Commission said more testing is
:42:54. > :42:58.needed. Meanwhile, local meat producers are hoping the scandal
:42:58. > :43:01.will change our shopping habits for good.
:43:01. > :43:08.We are joined by Alistair Mackintosh a beef farmer from
:43:08. > :43:15.Cumbria. What is the problem here, why is forced me getting into our
:43:15. > :43:20.meals? As far as I am concerned, I am proud that the product I produce
:43:20. > :43:27.my produce to the high standards. We have a track assurance scheme
:43:27. > :43:33.that we had here to and but it is important that that is recognised.
:43:33. > :43:39.The problem we have now is that there must be some sort of illegal
:43:39. > :43:44.activity I would suggest that is allowing this product to compromise
:43:44. > :43:52.the high quality that we produce. Whereabouts is it happening? Why is
:43:52. > :43:58.a horse meat turning up in Allen- Mills? It is not for me to justify
:43:58. > :44:04.what processes or what is happening further down the chain. As far as I
:44:04. > :44:10.am concerned, we are not responsible for this. I am not
:44:10. > :44:15.suggesting you are. As far as I am concerned, the supply chain has let
:44:15. > :44:22.us down. It has led the consumer down, it as let us farmers down and
:44:22. > :44:28.within that supply chain Ferrar of this leak some activities going on
:44:28. > :44:32.which was to cheapen the end product. That has been the
:44:32. > :44:38.incentive there to make more money. That is the issue, the drive to get
:44:38. > :44:44.cheaper food? What we all recognise a period of austerity and I am not
:44:44. > :44:49.going to justify what has gone on. I would urge consumers and
:44:49. > :44:55.retailers and processors to actually buy the British product
:44:55. > :45:03.first, be very focused on our assurance schemes and I would
:45:03. > :45:11.encourage them to buy British. Gerald, who is at fault here? Why
:45:11. > :45:17.is a horse meat turning up in our food? Thereof two elements - one is
:45:17. > :45:22.avarice, people seeking to make a fast Park and not being scrupulous
:45:22. > :45:32.in the way that they make the fast Bach and that is being exposed a
:45:32. > :45:35.
:45:35. > :45:38.day by day. Secondly, poverty. People are to a very considerable
:45:38. > :45:45.proportion now inadequately recompensed for their work if they
:45:46. > :45:53.have jobs at all. They want to feed their families and their children a
:45:53. > :45:57.very obvious way of making somebody feel full is to feed him or her
:45:57. > :46:04.junk food. A has there been too many cuts to the various
:46:04. > :46:09.inspectorate's? That is a problem as well. That started under label
:46:09. > :46:15.from -- Labour. I am not talking about it as a party political issue.
:46:15. > :46:22.I am talking about it as a social and health issue and that means
:46:22. > :46:26.that they risk far too much junk food being consumed in this country,
:46:26. > :46:31.which quite apart from the injection of course me that we have
:46:31. > :46:37.now learned a great deal about, means obesity is fed as well
:46:37. > :46:47.because Lutz parts of the junk food are carbohydrates and it is a
:46:47. > :46:48.
:46:48. > :46:53.social issue. It is an issue of inspection. The European Community
:46:53. > :46:58.was basically founded to subsidised French farmers. Let's bring David
:46:58. > :47:01.Morris in because Sir Gerald says this is not a party political issue
:47:01. > :47:06.but There are a lot of people thinking the Government should sort
:47:06. > :47:11.this out. This is above politics. This is about trying to sort out
:47:11. > :47:17.our food chain, where things are where, what has gone wrong.
:47:17. > :47:21.whose job is it to sort it out? legislation is already in place, it
:47:21. > :47:30.is just how it will be implemented. There is evidence of illegal
:47:30. > :47:35.trading going on. The whole thing is a mess. It needs sorting out and
:47:35. > :47:39.politicians can only do their bit. It has to go down to the supply
:47:39. > :47:45.chain, all the way through the whole system and we have to got get
:47:45. > :47:51.a grip. Where they are too many cars to inspectors? If we are
:47:51. > :47:56.looking at the period of 10 years before the last horse meat trials
:47:56. > :48:02.on foot were conducted, 10 years ago, it should be going on every
:48:02. > :48:07.two years at least. 10 years is a long time. We should be in a
:48:07. > :48:13.position where we can find out what is in our food at any given moment.
:48:13. > :48:19.But if you are making cuts to food inspectors... I do not go with that
:48:19. > :48:24.because you have those officers then out to look for horsemeat. We
:48:24. > :48:32.must not knee-jerk on this. We must be more vigilant and make sure we
:48:32. > :48:36.get this whole issue sorted. It is not about numbers, it is about the
:48:36. > :48:41.effectiveness of the inspector, the effectiveness of how they conduct
:48:41. > :48:44.the inspections. Numbers are irrelevant. You can have as many as
:48:44. > :48:51.you want but if they are not looking in the right place, it does
:48:51. > :48:55.not matter how many people you have their. I do not want to see the
:48:55. > :49:00.government have a knee-jerk reaction on this because if you
:49:00. > :49:05.bring in more inspectorates who are not focused on the right area, the
:49:05. > :49:12.cost of their cars back to me as a primary producer. It does not get
:49:12. > :49:15.pushed up the line to the consumer. I do not get more from abroad up
:49:15. > :49:21.because I am inspected more and this comes back to the innocent.
:49:21. > :49:26.Thank you. We all know the familiar complaint,
:49:26. > :49:31.politicians do not listen but consider what is going on in Fylde.
:49:31. > :49:35.It is unusual because 20 of the 51 councillors there are independents.
:49:35. > :49:40.They say the ruling Conservative group ignores them said they are
:49:40. > :49:47.using powers to try to trigger a referendum to change the way it is
:49:47. > :49:52.run. In Fylde, a political storm is
:49:52. > :49:55.brewing and it is all getting a bit frosty at the Town Hall. Meet the
:49:55. > :50:00.members of the Fylde Civic Awareness Group. They are critical
:50:00. > :50:04.of the Cabinet made up of the leader of the council or and six
:50:04. > :50:10.Conservative councillors. They say too much power is in the hands of
:50:10. > :50:15.the few. What we have here is that the decisions are being made behind
:50:15. > :50:19.closed doors and that when it comes to a cabinet meeting, it is purely
:50:19. > :50:23.a rubber-stamping issue. When we are not allowed to debate it and
:50:23. > :50:27.when it is only those seven people that make that decision, it is not
:50:27. > :50:32.democratic. 0 return to the committee system would make
:50:32. > :50:35.decisions being taken by groups of councillors from all parties. With
:50:36. > :50:40.some councillors calling for change, it is looking like a showdown is on
:50:40. > :50:45.the cards with the leader of the Council. We have various committees
:50:45. > :50:50.that operate and run the daily running of this council. It leader
:50:50. > :50:54.of the council says there is debate and democracy and is denying all
:50:54. > :51:01.allegations of deals done behind closed doors. How do you feel about
:51:01. > :51:08.these criticisms? I feel they are very unfounded. Prior to the
:51:08. > :51:14.Cabinet system, Fylde Borough Council was classed as being a
:51:14. > :51:19.poorly run council. Under this cabinet system, there were
:51:19. > :51:28.opportunities for all councillors with in Fylde Borough Council to be
:51:28. > :51:32.involved, to criticise, to comment, to take part in debates. We have a
:51:32. > :51:37.network of 20 shops throughout Fylde where people can walk in and
:51:37. > :51:42.sign the petition. The Fylde Civic Awareness Group needs to collect
:51:42. > :51:47.4,000 signatures in order for there to be a referendum. People will be
:51:47. > :51:52.able to tell them if they are not happy with what happens and
:51:52. > :52:01.certainly in the areas I represent, people are happy. A referendum
:52:01. > :52:09.would cost this council in excess of �120,000 to operate. The funding
:52:09. > :52:17.for any referendum can only be met by one group of people and they are
:52:17. > :52:22.the council tax payers of Fylde and I feel that that is very unfair.
:52:22. > :52:28.Which direction we live go? Will be winds of change take a hold as
:52:28. > :52:33.local residents decide on Cabinet or committee?
:52:33. > :52:38.Said Gerald, do you think they will be better off going back to the
:52:38. > :52:47.Olda star Cabinet system? The main thing is to have a system which
:52:47. > :52:54.listens to it the people. Elected representatives are important. But
:52:54. > :52:59.in the end, this is not about what elected representatives decide is
:52:59. > :53:04.best for the people. It is what people decide his best for
:53:04. > :53:08.themselves with their elected representatives listening,
:53:08. > :53:14.attending and where appropriate and possible, implementing. It does not
:53:14. > :53:19.seem to me that that is what is working on Fylde council. I am wary
:53:19. > :53:26.of referendums and I complete the accept it might be expensive to
:53:26. > :53:32.have won, but the cure is full of the council not to regard itself as
:53:32. > :53:36.living in some cocoon in its town hall. The cure is for the council
:53:36. > :53:41.to listen to the people, respond to them, pay attention and where
:53:41. > :53:51.appropriate, do what the people ask to be done. Do you agree there is
:53:51. > :53:52.
:53:52. > :53:58.something going on there? I do. It is, localism... It will be very
:53:58. > :54:03.interesting we have to see what the result is. If that result is either
:54:03. > :54:07.committee or executive, fine, let's see what happens from there. I
:54:07. > :54:13.believe this is the first case in the country. I myself will be very
:54:13. > :54:18.interested to see what is going on but it is evident that you have a
:54:18. > :54:24.minority party wanting to have a louder voice, it has gone to be a
:54:24. > :54:28.referendum now, like in the localism Act, let the people speak.
:54:28. > :54:32.It is what is going on with the elected representatives and they
:54:32. > :54:36.should listen to the people. Gerald says it does not come down
:54:36. > :54:42.to political structures, it is about whether politicians listen
:54:42. > :54:46.effectively or not. Clearly there you is if you change the structure,
:54:46. > :54:51.the politicians will be forced to listen to them all. That is their
:54:51. > :54:54.view and the good thing about the localism act is that you can be
:54:54. > :54:59.expressed. I would be very interested to see the result of
:54:59. > :55:03.this. It was Labour to change the system to bring in Cabinet and the
:55:03. > :55:08.idea was to streamline local politics to make decisions quicker
:55:08. > :55:14.and more efficiently. Do we think perhaps that was not such a good
:55:14. > :55:20.idea or are we saying it works in some places on not in others?
:55:20. > :55:26.Quicker does not mean more efficient. Whoever is in charge,
:55:26. > :55:34.sometimes you have to pause and listen and pay attention and change
:55:34. > :55:38.your policies. That is what we are discussing in my city. We have an
:55:38. > :55:45.overwhelming Labour majority and Manchester and will soon have a 100
:55:45. > :55:53.% Labour council. Listen To the People. That has been my watchword
:55:53. > :55:59.in 43 years in the House of Commons. You cannot always do what is asked.
:55:59. > :56:02.Where is the problem here? The people in this case are also the
:56:02. > :56:07.councillors and it is the councillors, the independent
:56:07. > :56:15.councillors who say the ruling groups are ignoring them. One does
:56:15. > :56:20.the way democracy mean? It comes from two Greek words. It is
:56:20. > :56:27.government by the people. I am a member of parliament. I do not
:56:27. > :56:32.govern, I represent. Carsley, that might be the issue, that is what
:56:32. > :56:36.the Conservative group leader was saying. It is but if that is what
:56:36. > :56:42.it will cost, I am certain that in future occasions, that cost should
:56:42. > :56:49.be looked at in a different way, how it can be deep -- cheaper. I
:56:49. > :56:54.agree with everything Gerald has said, it is all about the people.
:56:54. > :56:57.Time for a round-up of the rest of the week's news.
:56:57. > :57:01.Fresh inquests for the victims of the Hillsborough disaster could be
:57:01. > :57:07.held in Liverpool after a new powers were given to coroners. Lord
:57:07. > :57:17.Justice Goldring says he will make that decision in due course.
:57:17. > :57:19.
:57:19. > :57:23.A sweetener or cash for The government has denied offering
:57:23. > :57:26.schools money to drop their opposition to becoming academies.
:57:26. > :57:34.The head teachers' union says payments of �40,000 have been
:57:34. > :57:39.offered to 32 schools in Lancashire. We have now become the natural
:57:39. > :57:42.party of government in this party. -- country.
:57:42. > :57:45.And a campaign has been launched for a statue at Westminster of
:57:45. > :57:55.Harold Wilson. This week marked 50 years since the former prime
:57:55. > :58:06.
:58:06. > :58:10.minister and MP for Ormskirk and Sir Gerald, you worked with Carole
:58:10. > :58:16.Dawson almost from the start of him being Prime Minister. What did you
:58:16. > :58:22.learn from him? I work for Harold Wilson for five years and went with
:58:22. > :58:26.him to the north to his constituency. What I learned from
:58:26. > :58:31.him his government is important and policies are important and changes
:58:31. > :58:37.can be made, like the way he invented the Open University. But
:58:37. > :58:41.the main thing is to listen to the people. He was the first people's
:58:41. > :58:46.Member of Parliament. He was a fantastic constituent MP. I went
:58:46. > :58:52.with him to his surgeries in Moseley and Kirby and he sat there
:58:52. > :58:56.himself, taking notes from his constituency is, listing to them on
:58:56. > :59:00.-- and on Monday he gave instructions for their worries and
:59:00. > :59:06.complaints to be followed up. like him? My thought he was a
:59:06. > :59:10.wonderful man. He was an extraordinarily nice person. Kind
:59:10. > :59:15.and considerate but ruthless as well because you cannot become a
:59:15. > :59:18.party leader without being with us, but he was an outstanding Prime
:59:18. > :59:25.Minister and he made changes in this country which had not been
:59:25. > :59:32.reversed. Day the, what do you think of the idea of a statue to
:59:32. > :59:38.him? I think a statue should be elected -- erected for him. He was