:01:20. > :01:30.game responsibility for our well-being. We ask if local
:01:30. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :36:02.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2071 seconds
:36:02. > :36:04.government can really improve our good health! As councils regain
:36:04. > :36:14.responsibility for looking after us, we'll ask if local government can
:36:14. > :36:17.
:36:17. > :36:21.really improve our habits. It will only work well enough if it is the
:36:21. > :36:24.first in a number of steps. joining us this week and looking
:36:24. > :36:31.very well, the Labour MP for Bolton West, Julie Hilling, and Ben
:36:31. > :36:35.Wallace, the Conservative MP for Wyre and Preston North. Welcome to
:36:36. > :36:40.both of you. We start in Cumbria, where the Conservative police
:36:40. > :36:50.Commissioner apologised unreservedly this week following revelations over
:36:50. > :36:52.
:36:52. > :36:55.his expenses. The story began when a local newspaper, published details.
:36:55. > :37:00.He repaid the money after the report was published but his office raised
:37:00. > :37:05.concerns with the police. Police staff members and another person
:37:05. > :37:09.were held on suspicion of data protection offences and misconduct
:37:09. > :37:13.in public office. The police and crime panel, which oversees the
:37:13. > :37:18.commissioner, has given him a list of questions to answer. It is a
:37:18. > :37:22.press conference on Friday where he admitted to two mistakes, failing to
:37:22. > :37:29.test the cost of the ship driven car before the bill arrived and failing
:37:30. > :37:39.to submit his expenses on time. apologise unreservedly to the people
:37:39. > :37:49.of Cumbria for the embarrassment that causes and for a situation --
:37:49. > :37:53.this situation. He got the bill, he painted, he has apologised. We know
:37:53. > :37:57.that expenses are toxic for any politician. It does feel, though,
:37:57. > :38:02.with the next bit of the story, that maybe people will be trying to use a
:38:02. > :38:06.sledgehammer to crack a nut. But do you feel that he has done anything
:38:06. > :38:11.wrong now that requires further investigation, or as far as you're
:38:11. > :38:14.concerned, is this case closed? feels that he has learned his
:38:15. > :38:19.lesson, that he needs to make sure like all of us that our expenses are
:38:19. > :38:24.up there, at their for people to see. Hopefully he has learned from
:38:24. > :38:29.that and we will not have a repeat. It feels, as far as he's concerned,
:38:29. > :38:33.that it should be case closed. he do not feel, then, as the Labour
:38:33. > :38:37.Party does officially, that the Home Secretary needs to get involved in
:38:38. > :38:43.this? My understanding of that is that some of that is around the
:38:43. > :38:50.further action that has been taken, rather than specifically about him.
:38:50. > :38:54.Then, is this really a matter for arrest? On the police investigation,
:38:54. > :38:58.which is not about the police commissioner. Let's be clear. He is
:38:58. > :39:01.not under investigation for a crime. It is other people. I do not
:39:01. > :39:07.know the details of the investigation. I would be surprised
:39:07. > :39:17.if anyone else does. We have to wait until that has played its course. As
:39:17. > :39:22.we that a game when we know the details. What is true is that
:39:22. > :39:27.expenses are toxic subject. Anyone would have been able to find out
:39:27. > :39:29.about these storage of hired cars or chauffeur cars through a simple
:39:29. > :39:35.Freedom of information request which is the law and gives you that
:39:35. > :39:39.permission. We should not lose sight that... I do not think anyone has
:39:39. > :39:43.accused the police commissioner of covering up, of breaking the law,
:39:43. > :39:49.and therefore we need to see the full detail and what will come out.
:39:49. > :39:52.What is sure is that expenses... me pick you up on this. What is
:39:52. > :39:56.lightly strange here, as you say, is that this information could have
:39:56. > :40:02.come out anyway. It was meant to be made public. So what has happened is
:40:02. > :40:05.that some officials have seen this, we know that there was a mistake
:40:05. > :40:08.here, that is why he has apologised for it, they have made public
:40:08. > :40:14.something which would become public anyway, and yet they have been
:40:14. > :40:20.arrested for it. I think some people would say that is a bit odd. We do
:40:20. > :40:25.not know who these people were who got the information. We do not know
:40:25. > :40:29.how they got it. Did they break into his office, hack is computer, sell
:40:29. > :40:35.the information to a newspaper? Did they seek to profit from information
:40:35. > :40:41.that was going to be published? not heavy-handed in your view?
:40:41. > :40:45.not know. It could be heavy-handed. There are many examples of arrests
:40:45. > :40:52.that are unnecessary, but let's wait until the investigation is complete.
:40:52. > :40:57.Is part of the wider problem that we have inexperienced politicians in
:40:57. > :41:01.high roles? This is a new policy and all these new commissioners are
:41:01. > :41:06.going to have to learn that in this world, the world that MPs live in
:41:06. > :41:11.now everyday, and journalists as well, is a world of transparency. So
:41:11. > :41:17.we need to make sure they master that before we start getting to the
:41:17. > :41:20.bottom things, to make sure we all know what is going on.
:41:20. > :41:23.Meanwhile, Cumbria Police have condemned an internet group set up
:41:23. > :41:28.to name and shame paedophiles, called Communities Against
:41:28. > :41:30.Paedophiles in the South Lakes. They want the law changed so that parents
:41:30. > :41:34.get automatic notification if a registered sex offender lives
:41:34. > :41:39.nearby, but police and local politicians said they are actually
:41:39. > :41:45.making children more vulnerable. Our reporter went to their first public
:41:45. > :41:51.meeting, in Barrow. They say they are vigilant, not
:41:51. > :41:55.vigilantes. Communities Against Paedophiles meet in a Barrow pub.
:41:55. > :42:01.They are hiding in plain sight all the time. It has proved it with
:42:01. > :42:04.Jimmy Savile and all the celebrities and everything. If everybody, every
:42:05. > :42:12.area, had a group like ours, they could not go anywhere, could they?
:42:12. > :42:17.We take it out of the paper and put it on to our page and the faces are
:42:17. > :42:20.there and everybody knows who they are. CAPS claim thousands of
:42:20. > :42:25.supporters on the internet. They have published the whereabouts of
:42:25. > :42:28.paedophiles. But the information is not official. Nonetheless, members
:42:28. > :42:33.at the meeting in Barrow were convinced they are fighting the good
:42:33. > :42:40.fight. Wood the problem is that the information is not out there. The
:42:40. > :42:47.whole idea is that we make the information available to people.
:42:47. > :42:52.There are 11 streets around my area where there is a paedophile who has
:42:52. > :42:57.been sent to jail. The police are worried, too. They said some people
:42:57. > :43:00.have already been approached as a result of CAPS. They say some
:43:00. > :43:06.offenders may be driven underground as a result of it, making them even
:43:06. > :43:14.more difficult to monitor. The town MP agrees. I would strongly caution
:43:14. > :43:16.them against going ahead with any course of action that the police say
:43:16. > :43:22.could put our children at greater risk.
:43:22. > :43:25.Cases such as Sarah Payne, murdered by paedophile Roy Whiting, are still
:43:25. > :43:32.fresh in the public consciousness. It led to Sarah's Law, which gives
:43:32. > :43:36.parents a limited information on the whereabouts of paedophiles.
:43:36. > :43:41.America they have far more disclosure. There have been a lot of
:43:41. > :43:47.the gelati attacks and actually, people have been murdered. We are
:43:47. > :43:52.not a violent group. We will not accept any violence whatsoever. We
:43:52. > :43:56.do not accept swearing on our page. Whilst there may have been just 20
:43:56. > :43:59.people at the public meeting, CAPS have proud to carry on until the law
:43:59. > :44:05.is changed. Julie, do you agree with this
:44:05. > :44:08.group? No, I think the sorts of groups are extremely dangerous. One
:44:08. > :44:13.of the biggest issue is, of course, is that paedophiles currently have
:44:13. > :44:15.to be on the sex offenders register. What this may well do is drive
:44:15. > :44:20.people underground, and then we would actually lose sight of where
:44:20. > :44:27.they may be. It also encourages other behaviour. This saying they
:44:27. > :44:33.are not vigilantes but we saw before witchhunts of people being accused
:44:33. > :44:40.of paedophilia. -- this group are saying. We saw a paediatrician
:44:40. > :44:46.attacked because people thought she was a paedophile, for example.
:44:46. > :44:50.the reason though that people are doing it that they do not feel safe,
:44:50. > :44:53.that the current system is not good enough? I understand why they have
:44:53. > :44:58.that fear but under the current system you do have the right to
:44:58. > :45:02.request information, if you are worried about person in your life
:45:02. > :45:06.you have a right to request information about their background.
:45:06. > :45:12.And that is good enough for you? think it is always a law that we
:45:12. > :45:16.have two keep looking at. Is it working, do we need to develop it
:45:16. > :45:19.further? But in terms of giving everybody access and saying, that is
:45:19. > :45:25.a paedophile that lives there, I can that takes us down a road that is
:45:25. > :45:31.very dangerous. What do you think? Does the law needs tightening up?
:45:31. > :45:36.is quite easy to say I think we should lock up paedophiles for
:45:36. > :45:46.longer. But we know that paedophiles are incredibly devious. This when
:45:46. > :45:46.
:45:46. > :45:53.they are in prison and are released, you get a letter saying that
:45:53. > :46:00.so-and-so is coming to your conduct is -- constituency to live. They
:46:00. > :46:04.will tell you that a person has chosen to serve full-time rather
:46:04. > :46:08.than come out early to minimise the controls put on them. So we know
:46:08. > :46:11.they are devious. The priorities protecting children and it is our
:46:11. > :46:17.job, the police, to monitor these people. Anything that makes it
:46:17. > :46:21.harder to monitor will actually make it more dangerous for people.
:46:21. > :46:25.you think this makes it worse? Wood death is should be listened to,
:46:25. > :46:33.which is these guys are so devious, you stop putting their names outside
:46:33. > :46:39.every door and they will run away and you will have no idea. -- these
:46:39. > :46:43.guys should be listened to. Every division that has the names will not
:46:43. > :46:48.be able to keep tabs and that is when real danger happens. We need to
:46:48. > :46:52.make sure it is always reviewed. I encourage my colleagues to go to
:46:52. > :46:58.their local police protection unit. You must make sure we do not
:46:58. > :47:01.threaten the real ability of monitoring these people.
:47:01. > :47:05.It must have been a difficult month for any overweight councillors who
:47:05. > :47:10.enjoy smoking out there. Because responsibility for public health has
:47:10. > :47:13.moved from the NHS to local government after almost 40 years.
:47:13. > :47:18.That'll cancel is already looking into minimum pricing for alcohol.
:47:18. > :47:22.Our reporter has been to the town to find out if councils really can
:47:22. > :47:29.change our habits. -- Blackpool Council.
:47:29. > :47:37.It was under the Victorians that councils first got to grip with the
:47:37. > :47:41.nation's public health. It is a deadly disease... Over the decades,
:47:41. > :47:46.there have been high profile campaigns. During the 1980s, HIV and
:47:46. > :47:50.heroin were hitting the headlines. Fast forward and fast food and
:47:50. > :47:53.obesity is on the agenda. After nearly 40 years of educating
:47:53. > :47:59.society, the NHS is now handing over public health act to local
:47:59. > :48:04.government. This is about the people of Blackpool. We have big robins
:48:04. > :48:13.here, no question. That Paul is one of the most deprived areas in the
:48:13. > :48:19.country. For housing, problems with alcohol and poor eating have its
:48:19. > :48:22.mean it has one of the lowest life expectancies in the country. I think
:48:22. > :48:27.it is a really positive step forward. It does mean we are going
:48:27. > :48:32.to integrate debtor, public health, with all the other functions of the
:48:32. > :48:36.council, for example, in housing, in the anti-poverty strategy. There are
:48:36. > :48:40.wide powers here that we already have to do things. The best way of
:48:40. > :48:47.doing that is for everybody to work together as one big team. That is
:48:47. > :48:51.what we will do for more in the future. There are major plans to
:48:51. > :48:58.turn around ill health and bad habits on the resort. But how much
:48:58. > :49:03.power does the director of public members and other members of the
:49:03. > :49:11.council to positively improve the health of the population through the
:49:11. > :49:14.decision that may make -- that they make. I also want to look at the
:49:14. > :49:20.number of fast-food outlets around schools, for example. These are
:49:20. > :49:24.things we can look at now in terms of public health.
:49:24. > :49:30.Andrew Southern has been addicted to drink and drugs for over 20 years.
:49:30. > :49:39.He is now clean and feels new will work. I have had problems with
:49:39. > :49:43.housing, help through my drug problem and alcohol problem, and
:49:43. > :49:48.benefits. I have been sent here, there and everywhere in the past.
:49:48. > :49:51.But I think more now that they are starting to deal with my problem is
:49:51. > :49:54.a bit better. The Government has provided ring-fenced budgets but
:49:55. > :50:03.public health is not immune from the need to make savings amongst
:50:03. > :50:08.cash-strapped councils. You have to remember that local councils are
:50:08. > :50:14.extremely cash restrained. This is a welcome step in the opposite
:50:14. > :50:17.direction, towards greater localism, but it will only work well if it is
:50:17. > :50:23.the first of a number of steps and we see greater integration of health
:50:23. > :50:27.and social care. In Blackpool, 25 members of NHS staff now work for
:50:27. > :50:32.the Council, promoting healthy living and lifestyle choices. This
:50:32. > :50:36.is a radical shake-up of the NHS and local government. My whole career
:50:36. > :50:45.has been working within the NHS so it has been more of a cultural
:50:45. > :50:49.change. I am learning how to work more in a political environment. So
:50:49. > :50:55.I suppose that is where it will be the biggest change for us at the end
:50:55. > :50:58.of the day. Public health is at the heart of the political agenda. Local
:50:58. > :51:04.councils will no doubt feel the pressure in getting the treatment
:51:04. > :51:08.right. We are joined by the former director of public health for the
:51:08. > :51:12.North West. Why does this matter, what is the big significance of
:51:12. > :51:15.moving from the NHS to local government? It matters because in
:51:15. > :51:20.one sense a lot of the things that need to be done to protect and
:51:20. > :51:25.improve health are outside of the health service. Historically, they
:51:25. > :51:28.were things to do with housing, recreation, employment and so on.
:51:28. > :51:33.The public health departments, when they were in local authorities
:51:33. > :51:38.before 1974, were often very big. The Liverpool one had over 6000
:51:38. > :51:42.staff. Health visitors, social workers, environmental health
:51:42. > :51:46.officers, inspectors, all sorts. I have campaigned for this for my
:51:46. > :51:51.entire 35 years in public health but I now have mixed feelings because
:51:51. > :51:56.the paradoxes that a lot of the things that used to be under the
:51:57. > :51:59.direct control of local government are no longer. Will be new directors
:51:59. > :52:04.of Public health have the independence to do this job
:52:04. > :52:07.properly? This is a big worry. The reason why I have not gone into the
:52:07. > :52:12.county council in Cumbria which I should have done was because of the
:52:12. > :52:15.lack of support for my position there. Lancashire has a similar
:52:15. > :52:21.problem. The North West as a whole, we have probably the strongest
:52:21. > :52:25.public health function in the country, and you have people like
:52:25. > :52:32.the person in Blackpool, who has the support of the council. The Wirral
:52:32. > :52:36.is a good example. But we have several which are not, and out of
:52:36. > :52:39.the 140 local authorities nationally, there are about 30 which
:52:39. > :52:49.appear to be as it stripping or intent on as it stripping the public
:52:49. > :52:53.health resource. Julie, are you confident, having heard what John
:52:53. > :52:57.has said about the position in your part of the world? I do think it
:52:57. > :53:02.depends very much on your local authority. I know in Bolton they
:53:02. > :53:04.already had a joint appointment between the local authority and the
:53:04. > :53:07.VCT and the Director of Public health, so that has moved across
:53:07. > :53:12.beautifully into the local authority, staff have transferred
:53:12. > :53:15.across and because there has been a long established partnership between
:53:15. > :53:22.the local authority and health, it is likely to carry on working very
:53:22. > :53:25.well. There have been all sorts of things over the last few years, so I
:53:25. > :53:29.am feeling very positive in my patch about it but I do think there are
:53:29. > :53:32.difficulties, and there was a concern, of course, as well, it was
:53:32. > :53:38.the budget is confirmed for two years, but already it is being said
:53:38. > :53:41.that there will be a 5% cut on that budget in future years, so that will
:53:41. > :53:48.constrain our ability... And what about your part of the world? Will
:53:48. > :53:52.it improve things? I think everyone has agreed that joining together,
:53:52. > :53:57.trying to make sure that we tackle health and inequality and all the
:53:57. > :54:02.problems people face by not just working any treatment area but also
:54:02. > :54:06.public health, housing, is a good thing. Like all major policy shifts,
:54:06. > :54:11.it has to be something we continue to monitor. We cannot just say, we
:54:11. > :54:14.have done it, off we go, we can let the good ones go and the bad ones
:54:14. > :54:17.will be back here trying to fix the problem in three or four years
:54:17. > :54:27.time. So we need to monitor the ring-fencing, monitor the councils
:54:27. > :54:27.
:54:27. > :54:31.that are not playing ball. It has only been ring-fenced for two years.
:54:31. > :54:36.Ring-fences often get out for a few. Governments do not like ring-fencing
:54:36. > :54:40.things for very long and local authorities do not like it. The
:54:40. > :54:45.Government often says it will do it for two years and then review it. So
:54:45. > :54:48.in two years' time hopefully I and my colleagues will write to the
:54:48. > :54:54.Secretary of State for health and say, do not remove the ring-fence.
:54:54. > :54:57.Where there are problems, people like Professor Ashton knows
:54:58. > :55:02.absolutely this area back to front. We need his guidance as to where it
:55:02. > :55:05.is going wrong on the front line, so if it is not working well in that
:55:05. > :55:11.they should, I can go and speak to the chief executive and councillors
:55:11. > :55:15.and get things fixed. What should the priorities be? We need to make
:55:15. > :55:18.sure that the local director of public health has the mandate to
:55:18. > :55:23.speak out on public health issues. This was something which existed
:55:23. > :55:28.from the 1840s right through to 1974. The annual Public health
:55:28. > :55:30.report of the medical officer of health in those days was
:55:30. > :55:35.independent, like the auditors reporting local government,
:55:35. > :55:37.presented to the annual general meeting, a full council with the
:55:38. > :55:42.media there for transparency. My concern, and I have had this in
:55:43. > :55:46.Cumbria, we do not do that. These reports need to be corporate so that
:55:46. > :55:50.other people can have an input. This is worrying because we need is
:55:50. > :55:53.holding up a mirror to the situation. In the Victorian people,
:55:53. > :55:57.people could only be sacked with the approval of the Secretary of State.
:55:57. > :56:01.You could not be sacked for saying things which were uncomfortable,
:56:01. > :56:05.only for being an alcoholic or incompetent, but I am worried about
:56:05. > :56:08.that freedom of speech. I think it is very important that we get that
:56:08. > :56:12.secured. The other thing is that actually although we are talking
:56:12. > :56:15.about public health going back to local government, it will be in
:56:15. > :56:19.three places now. The director of public health will be appointed
:56:19. > :56:29.jointly with public health England, big chunks of public health will
:56:29. > :56:32.
:56:32. > :56:37.remain with Public Health England... I am very proud of my GPs
:56:37. > :56:41.being linked up with that organisation. They have made things
:56:41. > :56:46.with schools and district councils. We have got to carry on with that
:56:46. > :56:50.agenda as well. Thank you very much indeed. Time now for a round-up of
:56:50. > :56:52.the rest of the week's muse. Now here is 60 Seconds.
:56:52. > :56:55.A UKIP candidate in next month's Lancashire county council elections
:56:55. > :57:01.was forced to step down after sending offensive tweets about the
:57:01. > :57:05.party and the death of Margaret Thatcher. Ken Ball was due to
:57:05. > :57:09.contest Pendle. Tributes were paid this week to Anne
:57:09. > :57:15.Williams, who lost her battle with cancer. Anne had campaigned for the
:57:15. > :57:21.truth after her son Kevin died at Hillsborough. That woman gave so
:57:21. > :57:22.much of her life to trying to just get the truth and justice for her
:57:22. > :57:25.son. A half-a-million-pound arts project
:57:25. > :57:29.in Wirral to celebrate last year's Olympics has finally been cancelled.
:57:29. > :57:31.A column of steam was to rise out of Birkenhead dock but the artist
:57:31. > :57:34.couldn't make it work. The Health Minister accused Labour
:57:34. > :57:42.of scaremongering, saying there were no plans to close A&E at Lancaster
:57:42. > :57:45.Royal Infirmary. At no point in time have there ever been plans to close
:57:45. > :57:48.Lancashire Royal Infirmary. And sand yachting is to return to
:57:48. > :57:58.the Fylde coast. A 10-year ban imposed when a woman was killed has
:57:58. > :58:05.
:58:05. > :58:14.been temporarily lifted under strict Williams. How much do you think she
:58:14. > :58:17.changed attitudes on Hillsborough? Immensely. She would not take no for
:58:17. > :58:23.an answer and she kept on and kept on. She did not do it for months,
:58:23. > :58:28.but years. She got there. She has not entirely, no one has finished it
:58:28. > :58:34.yet, but she got justice for the victims. Well done and a sad loss.
:58:34. > :58:38.And you are campaigning on dangerous dogs at the moment. Yes, after the