:01:26. > :01:36.dubbed The Wild West without a sheriff - now there's a new manx
:01:36. > :01:36.
:01:36. > :37:37.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2160 seconds
:37:37. > :37:42.message over tax. We have the stop the wild West without a
:37:43. > :37:46.sheriff, now there is a new message in the Isle of Man overtaxed.
:37:46. > :37:52.we've done will help and has helped to change the offshore perception of
:37:52. > :37:57.the Isle of Man. We are not a tax haven. We are a small international
:37:57. > :38:04.business centre. We welcome someone who travelled further than normal to
:38:04. > :38:09.join us, Alan Bell, and Debbie Abrahams, the Labour MP for Oldham.
:38:09. > :38:13.Let's start by talking about on street grooming, because we know
:38:13. > :38:18.that is an issue for some in the Muslim community. Seven people were
:38:18. > :38:22.found guilty of it in Oxford. How much of an issue is it in all them?
:38:22. > :38:26.It is an appalling tragedy what has happened to these young girls and we
:38:26. > :38:31.need to focus on protecting our children from sexual predators. In
:38:31. > :38:37.Oldham there is a lot of work already going on. We need to be very
:38:37. > :38:42.clear about suggesting that this relates to one community or another.
:38:42. > :38:48.We know this is widespread across the country, also affecting
:38:48. > :38:53.communities. On Street grooming is pretty specific. I take issue with
:38:53. > :38:57.that. If you look at the evidence from the police it is inconclusive,
:38:57. > :39:02.and we need to be very careful before we get into focusing and
:39:02. > :39:08.targeting any particular community. Let's remember that this all came
:39:08. > :39:15.about because of what happened in Rochdale, the nine men jailed there.
:39:15. > :39:18.Here's what the Rochdale MP had to say. Senior officers in the local
:39:18. > :39:23.authority set a very unhealthy culture that saw these girls making
:39:23. > :39:28.life choices like this, they walked away from this authority with
:39:28. > :39:33.literally hundreds of thousands of pounds, and we are still waiting for
:39:34. > :39:37.Rochdale Council to publish a report showing exactly what went wrong.
:39:37. > :39:46.Your colleague has been pretty outspoken over this. How confident
:39:46. > :39:51.are you lessons have been learned? We need to wait and see in terms of
:39:51. > :39:54.the investigation. It needs to be published as soon as possible. We
:39:54. > :39:59.need to learn lessons from that and if people are found to be one
:39:59. > :40:04.thing, they should be doing the right thing. Alan Bell, this is
:40:04. > :40:08.primarily an issue for the Muslim community, but paedophilia is
:40:08. > :40:12.certainly a wider issue than that. Because of these issues being
:40:13. > :40:17.brought to the fore, as child protection become more of a priority
:40:17. > :40:23.on the Isle of Man? Obviously we have not had the same horrible
:40:23. > :40:27.experience as some parts of the UK, and hopefully we never will, but
:40:27. > :40:32.clearly we follow these cases very carefully, and do our best to make
:40:32. > :40:37.sure we learn the same lessons, which the local areas do. The one
:40:37. > :40:41.thing we need to be careful about is these are really horrific stories
:40:41. > :40:45.but the main body of abuse which takes place is often within the
:40:45. > :40:54.family and friends, behind closed doors. We must not lose sight of the
:40:54. > :41:00.fact to focus every bit as much of attention on that. It is very much
:41:00. > :41:03.more difficult to detect. Absolutely. Who fancies a week
:41:03. > :41:09.away? If you've got children and fancy going away during term time,
:41:09. > :41:12.it is cheaper but is about to become more difficult. The government is
:41:12. > :41:18.clamping down and parents in Bury have had letters. Lancashire County
:41:18. > :41:21.Council is writing to teachers. These children are where they should
:41:21. > :41:26.be during term time. Pupils in other schools have been taking off when
:41:26. > :41:34.they shouldn't, swapping the classroom for the seaside. The
:41:34. > :41:38.parents save money so the pressure is on headteachers. I point out the
:41:38. > :41:44.other side of the coin, the child coming back, their friendships may
:41:44. > :41:50.have moved on, they may feel they have moved out -- missed out on some
:41:50. > :41:55.important work. If attendance levels continue to drop it could trigger an
:41:55. > :42:00.inspection. Here, some give up their annual holiday to make sure their
:42:00. > :42:05.children are at school. We just have the time off in the allocated
:42:05. > :42:10.holidays. We always take school holidays, we believe it. We tried
:42:10. > :42:15.looking for holidays and it is three times more in the middle of summer.
:42:15. > :42:18.When it is the middle of May and it is still raining, some parents may
:42:18. > :42:26.be forgiven for wanting some quality family time in the sun. But it can
:42:26. > :42:35.affect children's grades. If a child is gone for three weeks, it can have
:42:35. > :42:40.the impact of downgrading the GCSE performance. Under current rules,
:42:40. > :42:44.headteachers can allow up to ten days for special circumstances. In
:42:44. > :42:49.September, the Department for education says schools should only
:42:49. > :42:52.give permission in exceptional circumstances. But there is no
:42:52. > :43:00.definition. If we need to set parameters, some people will not
:43:00. > :43:04.feel they are being fairly treated. In England, nearly 10% of absences
:43:04. > :43:10.were because of parents taking children out of school during term
:43:10. > :43:17.time. The �60 fine is often far less than the parents saved by hitting
:43:17. > :43:22.the beach then. Do you support this idea of tightening up the rules?
:43:23. > :43:27.is absolutely right that children should only be going away out of
:43:27. > :43:34.school except in exceptional circumstances. My eldest daughter,
:43:34. > :43:41.we asked permission to go to my mother's wedding abroad, but it does
:43:41. > :43:47.affect, there is evidence that affects the performance of students.
:43:47. > :43:51.Parents should be working to ensure the best outcome. You follow the
:43:51. > :43:55.British guidelines. Will you be tightening up? It's not a major
:43:55. > :44:00.problem on the island but it's clearly an issue. We follow what
:44:00. > :44:06.goes on closely. Ensuring children get the best possible education is
:44:06. > :44:11.top of the priority list. We need to understand two things, these cases
:44:11. > :44:15.should be taken on a case-by-case basis, because there are very strong
:44:15. > :44:20.reasons that it might be the only opportunity for the family to get
:44:20. > :44:29.together for a small holiday, because they cannot afford the
:44:29. > :44:33.holiday at another time. That brings quality a time for the family,
:44:33. > :44:39.nurtures the children, and can be helpful. -- that brings quality
:44:39. > :44:46.time. If you say that you cannot afford it and cannot have the time
:44:46. > :44:50.off, how do you compare? It is difficult to follow, but you need to
:44:50. > :44:55.look at individual cases. Generally, I do not think parents should be
:44:55. > :45:00.encouraged to take their children out. There is clear evidence it has
:45:00. > :45:03.a detrimental effect on exam results. Parents should be armed
:45:03. > :45:06.with that knowledge before they make a decision. Ultimately, it should be
:45:06. > :45:11.the right of the parent to decide what is in the best interests of the
:45:11. > :45:17.child. If this is being abused, there should be further action
:45:17. > :45:24.taken. Possibly nobody wants to leave the Isle of Man anyway because
:45:24. > :45:28.of the nice scenery. Absolutely.At the moment you have ten days where
:45:28. > :45:34.headteachers have leeway. From what you're saying, perhaps there should
:45:34. > :45:41.not be any excuse except in very exceptional circumstances? It does
:45:41. > :45:47.need to be on a case-by-case basis. Parents need to decide what is in
:45:47. > :45:53.the best interests of the children. We must not forget that the key
:45:53. > :45:58.determination is about poverty. There is an increase of children
:45:58. > :46:02.living in poverty as a result of the government's changes. That will have
:46:02. > :46:08.an impact on educational attainment. We should focus on those things
:46:08. > :46:12.first. I'm glad you mentioned tax, because nobody likes playing it but
:46:12. > :46:18.some people actively avoided or evade it. For some British taxpayers
:46:18. > :46:28.it means putting tax into that counts -- into tax accounts on the
:46:28. > :46:30.
:46:30. > :46:38.Isle of Man. That should be more difficult with new legislation. It
:46:38. > :46:41.was once described as the wild West without a sheriff. Rich and
:46:41. > :46:49.colourful characters took advantage of the Isle of Man's taxbreaks. Fast
:46:49. > :46:58.forward, and tax is front-page news. The government has welcomed the
:46:58. > :47:04.decision to start using the scheme. Tax avoiders find themselves on the
:47:04. > :47:10.right side of the law but on the wrong side of public opinion.
:47:11. > :47:15.avoidance and evasion is a cancer in Britain's society today.
:47:15. > :47:22.government say the Isle of Man being a tax dodging haven is based purely
:47:22. > :47:30.on its history and they have spent the last decade trying to move away
:47:30. > :47:36.from that. As finance ministers met recently to plot a solution to tax
:47:36. > :47:38.evasion, the government said this was a positive message. There is no
:47:38. > :47:42.doubting the willingness of the Isle of Man government to ensure they
:47:42. > :47:51.have a good reputation. The net is closing in on those people who try
:47:51. > :47:54.to get out of paying their taxes, and tried to evade tax. The island
:47:54. > :48:00.has agreed to exchange automatically information relating to personal
:48:00. > :48:04.bank accounts, trusts and companies. They have also agreed to work
:48:04. > :48:09.towards a multilateral pilot scheme with the United Kingdom and Europe.
:48:09. > :48:16.People who have been hiding investments now have three years to
:48:16. > :48:22.come clean. Will there be many? guess is any who were using the Isle
:48:22. > :48:31.of Man will have pushed off several years ago. If there are any left
:48:31. > :48:36.using it, bad luck. As the Chancellor stated his case at the
:48:36. > :48:39.summit, the Treasury minister questioned his mathematics. He said
:48:39. > :48:49.bad business was in the past and they have been leading the move for
:48:49. > :48:55.more transparency. I feel confident that any business not meeting
:48:55. > :49:04.current standards would have left by now. We are not a tax haven. We are
:49:04. > :49:11.a small international business centre. The haemorrhage ring of tax
:49:11. > :49:18.scale -- the number of tax evasion is is huge. This MP asked whether
:49:18. > :49:23.the government has the stomach for a battle. The UK controls half of the
:49:23. > :49:26.world's tax havens and he refuses to close them down. I do not think he
:49:26. > :49:33.has the nerve to take on the city of London, the big business, and the
:49:33. > :49:37.superrich, all of which want him to leave it as it is. Taxbreaks have
:49:37. > :49:42.meant big business for the island. They hoped the latest agreements
:49:42. > :49:50.will boost their image, and help it take off as a diverse and
:49:50. > :49:55.internationally responsible economy. We are joined from Edinburgh by a
:49:55. > :50:02.tax consultant. Let me start with Mr Bell. Why have you signed the
:50:02. > :50:07.agreement? We have worked on these for ten years. When they first
:50:07. > :50:12.established agreements, we were the first small nation to agree to
:50:12. > :50:15.that. We worked very closely with the international community. We were
:50:15. > :50:18.the first jurisdiction to give automatic exchange of information on
:50:18. > :50:25.bank accounts to the European Union. That was voluntary. There was no
:50:25. > :50:33.debate. We have committed to an automatic exchange with the United
:50:33. > :50:38.States and now the UK. You have been put under pressure. We have followed
:50:38. > :50:40.the argument, we understand the international agenda, we have every
:50:40. > :50:47.understanding of the concerns about people paying their fair whack of
:50:47. > :50:52.tax. We agree totally with that and we will work with the UK and other
:50:52. > :51:00.jurisdictions to recognise that. There are issues in the UK and the
:51:00. > :51:07.US and Europe that they need to tidy up. Let us speak to the tax
:51:07. > :51:12.consultant. I much of a step forward is this agreement? -- how much of a
:51:12. > :51:16.step forward? A huge step forward. It is very important to point out
:51:16. > :51:23.that not every organisation which has a bank account on the Isle of
:51:23. > :51:28.Man or other territories has it to evade or avoid tax. It is important
:51:28. > :51:33.to point out there is a huge difference between tax evasion,
:51:33. > :51:40.which is illegal, and tax avoidance, which is perfectly legal, albeit
:51:40. > :51:46.some organisations push the envelope -- push the envelope. I do not think
:51:46. > :51:56.this goes far enough, because a lot of these people set up structures
:51:56. > :51:59.
:51:59. > :52:05.which are fairly complex in order to hide the trails. You will typically
:52:05. > :52:12.have offshore trusts with umpteen companies operating underneath them,
:52:12. > :52:15.with directors. It is very difficult, often, to get back to
:52:15. > :52:23.whoever is actually the beneficial owner of these accounts. That is the
:52:23. > :52:27.next big thing that governments internationally need to cooperate
:52:27. > :52:33.on, to establish that trail and get back to the owner. Is this enough?
:52:34. > :52:41.It is a move in the right direction, but why has it taken so long? �120
:52:41. > :52:47.billion is estimated to have been avoided. Why has it taken so long?
:52:47. > :52:51.It shows, the priorities of the government are not here. They are
:52:51. > :52:54.not holding to account these powerful vested interests. It is an
:52:54. > :53:02.amazing fact to me that there are more staff administering child
:53:02. > :53:06.benefit cuts in revenues and customs than there are in the combined units
:53:06. > :53:11.of the offshore and affluence units. That says it all. One reason
:53:11. > :53:15.it took so long is because your government did not do it. We have
:53:15. > :53:19.admitted where our shortcomings are and I would not deny that, but this
:53:19. > :53:28.government has been in power for three years now. They are getting on
:53:28. > :53:33.with it. Not fast enough. We put these in place to start with, but
:53:33. > :53:38.they are not doing enough. It shows where their priorities are. Just
:53:38. > :53:41.mentioning beneficial ownership. The Isle of Man is well ahead of the
:53:41. > :53:46.United Kingdom in knowing the beneficial ownership of all their
:53:46. > :53:53.entities. We have regulation of entities, trusts, the UK has none of
:53:53. > :53:57.that. Would you be willing to give that information to the UK
:53:57. > :54:03.government? Absolutely. We need to see the UK following us and doing as
:54:03. > :54:07.well. The UK have catch up work to do. One thing you have always argued
:54:07. > :54:12.in the past is that the Isle of Man is not a tax haven. I'll else can
:54:12. > :54:21.you explain the need for this agreement? -- how else can you
:54:21. > :54:24.explain the need for this agreement? We have been open for many years. We
:54:24. > :54:29.have this information. This is simply formalising what has existed
:54:30. > :54:35.for a long time. This is going further, providing information to
:54:35. > :54:37.the British government which you did not provide before. We have an
:54:37. > :54:44.agreement to exchange information automatically with the European
:54:44. > :54:49.Union. As far as I know, the UK is still part of the European Union and
:54:49. > :54:54.thus were partial to that information. If you need to look for
:54:54. > :54:57.culprits, you need to look beyond the Isle of Man, into larger
:54:57. > :55:07.economies and smaller jurisdictions, perhaps in Asia as well as the
:55:07. > :55:07.
:55:07. > :55:11.British Isles. Part of this deal, as I understand it, is about taxing the
:55:11. > :55:16.interest on money in Isle of Man bank accounts. What do you make of
:55:16. > :55:21.that? That is fine as far as it goes. It is a step in the right
:55:21. > :55:24.direction. But you've got to wonder about the principal sums which were
:55:24. > :55:31.lodged in these accounts to start with. Should they have been liable
:55:31. > :55:36.to tax? This could stem from a wide range of activities which are not
:55:36. > :55:45.being declared like Internet trading. Whilst it is great we are
:55:45. > :55:52.going to catch up on tax on the interest, a far bigger kettle of
:55:52. > :55:58.fish is the tax on the sums which were put in in the first place.
:55:58. > :56:02.that happen? I think it will happen. We have seen a lot of progress,
:56:02. > :56:06.notwithstanding the frustrations mentioned. We have seen a lot of
:56:06. > :56:11.progress over the three years the government has been in power, but it
:56:11. > :56:16.is a huge problem, and as one of your other contributors said, it
:56:16. > :56:20.goes beyond the Isle of Man, British overseas dependencies. This is a
:56:20. > :56:27.global problem that needs a global solution, involving governments
:56:27. > :56:33.around the world. It is not far enough. The tax gap is 90% of the
:56:33. > :56:38.NHS budget. It is not far enough. What did you make of that point?
:56:38. > :56:41.valid point which raises another problem for the UK. It is right to
:56:41. > :56:50.know where the capital sums come from, and we have a very strict
:56:50. > :56:54.regime, the bulk of the funds comes from the UK banking system. It is
:56:54. > :56:58.transferred from the UK into the Isle of Man. You have to ask the
:56:58. > :57:02.question, what is happening in the UK banks that you have not got the
:57:02. > :57:08.same regime in the UK as we do? Otherwise that question would not
:57:08. > :57:18.get asked in the first place. thank you for asking it. Thank you
:57:18. > :57:21.
:57:21. > :57:25.for your time. Time for the Salford and Manchester has closed
:57:25. > :57:30.after losing its funding. Salford City Council says legally it had no
:57:30. > :57:36.choice. A couple on the Isle of Man have called for a change in the law
:57:36. > :57:42.after they were banned from renting a flat because they were gay.
:57:42. > :57:48.a matter of shock, and disbelief. deal has been done to run Cumbria
:57:48. > :57:51.County Council more than a week after the local elections. Labour is
:57:51. > :57:57.going into coalition with the Liberal Democrats. Still on track,
:57:57. > :58:02.but should it be? The economic benefits of high-speed rail to the
:58:02. > :58:06.north-west are unclear. They need to be more specific about where they
:58:06. > :58:13.think those benefits are going to come from and how they implement the
:58:14. > :58:18.programme? Experts gather in Liverpool to tackle an expanding
:58:18. > :58:28.problem. They chose the second most overweight area of the country for
:58:28. > :58:32.the obesity Congress. The gay couple on the Isle of Man who were not
:58:32. > :58:37.allowed to rent. What do you make of that? It is appalling in this day
:58:37. > :58:45.and age that that still happens. I remember 2010, a similar case with
:58:45. > :58:50.the bed-and-breakfast. We have very clear laws in the UK, where public
:58:50. > :58:55.services are being provided, it is appalling. What are you going to do
:58:55. > :58:59.about it? I was absolutely shocked when I heard about this. We need to
:58:59. > :59:05.realise this is just a 1-off. It is not a reflection of widespread
:59:05. > :59:10.homophobia on the Isle of Man. takes a long time to change those
:59:10. > :59:14.kinds of attitude. I fully accept the rights of individuals to have
:59:14. > :59:19.their own religious views, but in this day and age, we have a loving
:59:19. > :59:21.relationship, to people wanting to set up home together. It is
:59:21. > :59:26.outrageous they should be discriminated against because of
:59:26. > :59:30.their sexuality. I have already started to look at the equalities
:59:30. > :59:36.legislation on the island, and I hope we will be able to fill in any
:59:36. > :59:41.gaps shortly. What do you think the Isle of Man government should do?
:59:41. > :59:46.have the equalities act, I'm sure there is something to take from
:59:46. > :59:51.there. You said in terms of other legislation, talking about
:59:51. > :00:00.legislation, you have similar legislation to the UK government. Is
:00:00. > :00:04.that something you perhaps need to adopt there? We have quite extensive
:00:04. > :00:09.legislation on the island already, we are signatories to the European