:01:20. > :01:30.comes under fire and higher prices for higher education. But is it ever
:01:30. > :01:30.
:01:30. > :36:44.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2113 seconds
:36:44. > :36:54.finances under the spotlight. High prices for higher education, but
:36:54. > :36:58.
:36:58. > :37:06.who's really counting the cost? And joining us on the programme we have
:37:07. > :37:10.the Shadow Health Secretary and the MP for Bury North. We have had the
:37:10. > :37:14.care quality commission this week and the problems with Morecambe Bay
:37:14. > :37:20.health trust. we need full transparency in the NHS and we are
:37:20. > :37:27.calling on Jeremy Hunt to implement all of the recommendations of the
:37:27. > :37:31.report. Into the Stafford Hospital scandal. What are your concerns?
:37:31. > :37:38.must never lose sight of the fact that at the heart of this is an
:37:38. > :37:44.enormous personal tragedy for the families involved and let down by
:37:44. > :37:52.our NHS. What we want to see out of this is a new culture of openness
:37:52. > :38:02.and transparency, that must be accepted right across our NHS.
:38:02. > :38:03.
:38:03. > :38:07.continuing fallout from the alleged cover-up of an internal report into
:38:07. > :38:17.handling of the quality care commission 's hospital, particularly
:38:17. > :38:33.
:38:33. > :38:39.whether we can now trust the commission to oversee improvements
:38:39. > :38:45.at the trust. An organisation in turmoil, the
:38:45. > :38:51.public confused and politicians angry. As we saw, a culture within
:38:51. > :39:01.the NHS has been allowed to develop within which secrecy has been picked
:39:01. > :39:01.
:39:01. > :39:06.ahead of patient safety and care. Joshua died eight days after he was
:39:06. > :39:12.born. His father has been fighting to expose the truth about the
:39:12. > :39:16.hospital. I recognised they were feelings. I did not realise the
:39:16. > :39:22.extent. I felt physically ill when I read about the cover-up.
:39:23. > :39:25.families have been struggling to be heard, that is now felt to be
:39:25. > :39:34.because the care quality commission had self-interested its primary
:39:34. > :39:37.concern. There is a moral crisis of accountability. There are people
:39:37. > :39:41.prepared to take high salaries but they will not take responsibility
:39:41. > :39:46.when things go wrong. the names of those accused of trying to delete
:39:46. > :39:53.the internal critical review were originally redacted from the
:39:53. > :39:56.report, but then revealed after mounting pressure. They are very
:39:56. > :40:01.serious allegations and they should have serious consequences if they
:40:01. > :40:11.are proven to be right. I will back the sea QC to the Hilton trying to
:40:11. > :40:16.
:40:16. > :40:21.make sure that justice is done. -- quality care commission. Even though
:40:21. > :40:29.there is new leadership, the feelings that have been outlined
:40:29. > :40:36.here are such that we cannot consider the regulator fit for
:40:36. > :40:46.purpose -- feelings. The Health Secretary has turned down a visit to
:40:46. > :40:48.
:40:48. > :40:54.the hospital. We are joined by the head of health
:40:54. > :40:59.policy at Manchester business School.
:40:59. > :41:09.Labour created the care quality commission. Why did it go so badly
:41:09. > :41:14.
:41:14. > :41:19.wrong? I think that for the people of barrel, -- Barrow, it is the
:41:19. > :41:23.hospital that went wrong as well as the Quality Care Commission. It is
:41:23. > :41:27.too dreadful episode they together. The Quality Care Commission do some
:41:27. > :41:36.very good work across the country, but I am appalled and saddened at
:41:36. > :41:41.what has happened here. It is inexcusable and appropriate action
:41:41. > :41:45.should be taken against those involved. But it was labour that
:41:45. > :41:53.created it. They created the regulatory system. But it didn't
:41:53. > :41:59.work. What we are seeing is that the regulatory system is in need of
:41:59. > :42:03.review and change and it is quite the case that the people of Barrow
:42:03. > :42:11.have been let down and that is why we really need to make sure that the
:42:11. > :42:18.recommendations that were in the report into Mid Staffordshire,
:42:18. > :42:28.particularly in relation to transparency, need to be followed.
:42:28. > :42:28.
:42:28. > :42:33.Why'd you set up an inspector regime which consists of inspectors who
:42:33. > :42:35.were generalists rather than specialists? The new regime needs to
:42:35. > :42:43.look at the holder talented of the health and social care system rather
:42:43. > :42:48.than having different regimes for different parts. But you can still
:42:48. > :42:52.have specialists. I absolutely understand that. I do not understand
:42:52. > :42:58.why we have ended up with the situation that we have in Barrow. It
:42:58. > :43:03.is inexcusable and hopefully we will have the proper transparency that
:43:03. > :43:06.people who work in the NHS as well as patients who use the NHS deserve.
:43:06. > :43:10.Is it because the government was putting the hospital under pressure
:43:10. > :43:14.to become a foundation trust and the Quality Care Commission, which to
:43:14. > :43:16.some extent answers to the government, wanted to not give it
:43:16. > :43:22.any bad marks because that would have made it more difficult to
:43:22. > :43:26.become a trust? to be fair, there is no evidence that there was any kind
:43:26. > :43:33.of instruction from government that that is the case. but they would not
:43:33. > :43:37.be a direct instruction, but indirectly was that an issue?
:43:37. > :43:40.not think so. We need to have a thorough and quick review into the
:43:40. > :43:43.feelings of the Quality Care Commission. The real story should
:43:43. > :43:46.not be about the Quality Care Commission and the report, that has
:43:46. > :43:52.become the story. Quite frankly it is shocking and pollen that they
:43:53. > :43:57.have tried to delete and cover up what they have found. The real story
:43:58. > :44:04.should be what happened at Barrow and what we will do to put that
:44:04. > :44:09.right. What lessons should we draw from this? Directory main lessons.
:44:09. > :44:11.First, for those staff and organisations like Quality Care
:44:11. > :44:20.Commission who identify pure practice and wrongdoing, they need
:44:20. > :44:28.to have resilience in terms of putting their case. Eventually they
:44:28. > :44:34.were heard. But it has taken us far too long. But we should not need
:44:34. > :44:44.whistleblowers. Absolutely right. Your practice was identified years
:44:44. > :44:46.
:44:46. > :44:50.ago. -- bad practice. I think there are two more lessons actually. One
:44:50. > :44:54.is that I think that the NHS at senior levels needs to draw from a
:44:55. > :44:59.much broader pool of talent in taking on these very different jobs.
:44:59. > :45:04.If you would at who takes on these very senior positions across the NHS
:45:04. > :45:08.there is too much of a club culture. You therefore have a narrow lens and
:45:08. > :45:15.two narrower range of expertise and that is why you get mistake after
:45:15. > :45:20.mistake. Is it a job for the organisation? The third lesson is
:45:20. > :45:23.that this is the third reorganisation in ten years, and
:45:23. > :45:31.that is partly the responsibility of politicians who, when they come into
:45:31. > :45:38.power, cannot resist restructuring the NHS and because it is a complex
:45:38. > :45:41.job these organisations take a while to become competent. My message to
:45:41. > :45:48.politicians is, think twice before restructuring you may have more
:45:48. > :45:53.blood on your hands. but they cannot help it, they cannot resist it.
:45:53. > :46:00.cannot resist it, but they should. It is not a train set. What is your
:46:00. > :46:04.view in terms of reorganisation, and NHS reorganisation in general. The
:46:04. > :46:10.professor is saying that there is too much of it, it is too
:46:10. > :46:14.destabilising. We now have a settled position in the NHS. We have a
:46:14. > :46:20.settled system and I do not think that anyone is suggesting that there
:46:20. > :46:27.should be any giant reorganisation of the NHS. That is because it is
:46:27. > :46:33.happening at the moment. It has happened and we have a settled NHS.
:46:33. > :46:38.What this does demonstrate is that these incidents at Barrow happened
:46:38. > :46:43.in 2008 when the last government had been in power for 11 years. This
:46:43. > :46:46.demonstrates once and for all that it is not just about money. What
:46:47. > :46:53.ever anybody thinks, there were billions of money being poured into
:46:53. > :46:57.the NHS. Do you think it is the government 's fault? What I am
:46:57. > :47:02.saying is that it is not just about the amount of money that goes into
:47:02. > :47:08.the NHS that determines the outcome. And in any system people can was
:47:08. > :47:14.make mistakes, regardless of the amount of money being put into the
:47:14. > :47:19.system. You can still have mistakes made. Human error can take place.
:47:19. > :47:26.Would you agree with that, professor? I would turn extent. At
:47:27. > :47:30.the heart of the trouble with the NHS is the organisational culture
:47:30. > :47:36.and claim it. It is a culture of bullying and intimidation and an
:47:36. > :47:42.over focus on the part of both political parties around targets and
:47:42. > :47:46.performance overriding care and compassion. We cannot expect staff
:47:46. > :47:51.to provide care and compassion are they themselves are being believed
:47:51. > :47:54.and intimidated. How to be overcome that? we need to implement
:47:54. > :47:59.everything that has been recommended in the report into everything that
:47:59. > :48:06.we do for the future of the NHS, and particularly that duty of
:48:06. > :48:10.transparency. We need to get a pride back into working with the NHS
:48:10. > :48:13.because there are thousands of really good doctors and nurses and
:48:13. > :48:20.sometimes we forget that actually the NHS performs a incredibly well
:48:20. > :48:23.in comparison with other international health care systems on
:48:24. > :48:28.safety and care. Thank you very much.
:48:28. > :48:31.There is an unusual mixture of relief and stress on our university
:48:31. > :48:36.campuses at the moment. Students relieved exams are over, staff
:48:37. > :48:46.worrying about business. Salford University is cutting courses and
:48:47. > :48:48.
:48:48. > :48:52.the University of Bolton is making staff redundant.
:48:52. > :48:55.Attracting students as a University challenge. These are Salford
:48:55. > :49:00.students at the sharp end of broadcasting. The university has
:49:00. > :49:06.spent �13 million at this facility at media city. Meanwhile, the
:49:06. > :49:09.language department has been closed and several courses have been
:49:09. > :49:19.scrapped. This is the Vice Chancellor, overall student numbers
:49:19. > :49:24.
:49:24. > :49:27.are down, so is this and you -- is this a new dimension? many
:49:27. > :49:30.universities have had to discontinue languages because there are not
:49:30. > :49:34.sufficient students who want to study them. We are College of arts
:49:34. > :49:41.and technology, we are focused on that. Although languages are
:49:41. > :49:45.important to us they do not damage our concept as the University.
:49:45. > :49:51.students have also got tough decisions to make about the future.
:49:51. > :49:55.Whether to go to university, and which one. I'm thinking of taking
:49:55. > :50:00.economic 's with politics. It is important because for what I want to
:50:01. > :50:04.do I want to go into politics. Everybody I have spoken to who has
:50:04. > :50:09.not gone to university has regretted it. Everyone who has says it is the
:50:09. > :50:15.best three years of their life. people still excited about
:50:15. > :50:20.university? After tuition fees, people are still considering what
:50:20. > :50:24.they are doing. It does not affect me, by the time I have to pay it
:50:24. > :50:31.back I will be earning enough money to be all right. Liverpool
:50:31. > :50:35.University as part of the Russell group, which represents the top 24
:50:35. > :50:41.leading research universities in the UK. New halls of residence and
:50:41. > :50:47.science labs are being built as part of major investment. You'll mag
:50:47. > :50:52.International students are really important to a university like ours.
:50:52. > :50:56.There has been major investment abroad, whether University in China
:50:56. > :51:00.catering for 10,000 students, many of which will come to Liverpool for
:51:00. > :51:10.part of their degree. we have had major increases in the areas where
:51:10. > :51:15.
:51:15. > :51:21.we have not previously been able to recruit. Other universities in the
:51:21. > :51:26.north-west are also going global. The University of Central Lancashire
:51:26. > :51:30.has links with India and is looking for further expansion. But there has
:51:30. > :51:40.been criticism of this. This is risky investment and we are
:51:40. > :51:50.
:51:50. > :51:52.concerned that this is a knee jerk reaction. These students at
:51:52. > :51:59.Liverpool University have just finished their second year and are
:51:59. > :52:04.looking for summer jobs. With an average debt of around 30 thousand
:52:04. > :52:08.pounds looming, is it worth it? not do very many hours in
:52:09. > :52:14.university, I do not get very much contact time. But you have to put a
:52:14. > :52:18.lot of work in yourself. I recommend going, you get your qualifications.
:52:18. > :52:23.But you learn to go up and you become who you are going to be.
:52:24. > :52:26.People always forget about the fun element. Universities still insist
:52:26. > :52:33.they are the best form of career investment, but in challenging
:52:34. > :52:40.times, universities are dealing with a degree of uncertainty.
:52:40. > :52:48.When university fees were increased we were told that �9,000 would be a
:52:49. > :52:52.rather unusual fee. It has turned out to be the norm. if British
:52:52. > :52:57.universities, and our universities here in the north-west, our great
:52:57. > :53:04.success stories, we must not lose sight of the fact that these
:53:04. > :53:08.universities are sent surely independent, autonomous
:53:08. > :53:11.institutions. It is up to them what level of fees they charge. As we
:53:11. > :53:20.have seen, there are some enormous success stories at Manchester and
:53:20. > :53:24.Liverpool. We have seen individual students do benefit from a
:53:24. > :53:29.university education. But are you not concerned about the students who
:53:29. > :53:36.may be put off going because of those high fees? we have seen no
:53:36. > :53:42.evidence of that. Falling student numbers. the latest figures show
:53:42. > :53:47.that the 2013 figures are up on the 2012 figures. but they are not up as
:53:47. > :53:53.much in comparison with the drop the previous year. I remember when
:53:54. > :53:57.students were introduced and people said that it would be the end of
:53:57. > :54:01.universities. That did not happen and it will not happen now. Our
:54:01. > :54:05.universities are thriving and there are thousands of students every year
:54:05. > :54:11.who want to go and attend university. Would you drop the cap
:54:11. > :54:17.completely? Personally I would. I do not see any likelihood of that
:54:17. > :54:23.happening. That is my own personal view, I do not think it will happen
:54:23. > :54:29.any day soon. What is the problem with, for example, Salford deciding
:54:29. > :54:32.to drop its language courses? What we are seeing is students have
:54:32. > :54:37.carefully considered how they want to spend that amount of money and
:54:37. > :54:42.they have decided that that is not value for money. I am personally
:54:42. > :54:47.saddened that Salford 's decision, not least because I graduated from
:54:47. > :54:50.Salford University and have some fond memories of my time there. But
:54:50. > :54:55.the real issue here is that this is the other side of the coin of the
:54:55. > :54:59.debate we had a couple of years ago about tuition fees. A lot of focus
:54:59. > :55:02.was on the trebling of tuition fees and I voted against that measure
:55:02. > :55:08.because I feared that particularly for young people in a constituency
:55:08. > :55:12.like the one that I represent, that would be a major block for them
:55:12. > :55:17.pursuing a future in higher education. But the other side of
:55:17. > :55:24.that, and not really many people picked up on it at the time, was
:55:24. > :55:28.that the government was also cutting its sectoral -- central grants. That
:55:28. > :55:34.means that some of the small universities are now struggling in
:55:34. > :55:37.the free marketplace. but Salford University as the example says they
:55:37. > :55:44.will concentrate on what they are particularly good at, and languages
:55:44. > :55:48.is not our focus. Really they will focus on what brings in the students
:55:48. > :55:53.and the fees, that is part of the problem with the marketplace in
:55:53. > :55:56.higher education. What I would like to see as opportunities for young
:55:56. > :55:59.people from Greater Manchester in the north-west who may not have the
:55:59. > :56:05.opportunity to go and study foreign and white, but will have the
:56:05. > :56:12.opportunity to take a degree course on their doorstep and Greater
:56:12. > :56:19.Manchester. -- go and study far and wide. We are seeing that the best
:56:19. > :56:23.will thrive. It will be up to each university to offer the best package
:56:23. > :56:28.that they can, and those that do offer the best package, they are the
:56:28. > :56:36.ones that will survive and thrive. It is time for the rest of the week
:56:36. > :56:41.'s news in 60 seconds. Nigel Evans has been rearrested over
:56:41. > :56:45.new allegations of indecent assault. The Conservative MP and Commons
:56:45. > :56:49.Deputy Speaker denies the allegations.
:56:49. > :56:58.The Manchester -based co-operative bank is selling shares for the first
:56:58. > :57:04.time in 140 years. The UK 's largest mutual has other financial -- a
:57:04. > :57:09.financial black hole to fill. This school cost �25 million but the
:57:09. > :57:15.council says it is not attracting enough pupils to be viable.
:57:15. > :57:19.Pensioner power on parade in Blackpool to protest against
:57:20. > :57:28.dwindling incomes and attacks to universal benefits.
:57:28. > :57:33.And it was less of a loving and more of a case of mistaken identity.
:57:33. > :57:39.President Obama repeatedly called the Chancellor Geoffrey, confusing
:57:40. > :57:45.him with his favourite 80s soul singer.
:57:45. > :57:48.It is an easy mistake to make. Andrew, we have the comprehensive
:57:48. > :57:55.spending review coming up and news this week that there are further
:57:55. > :58:03.cuts coming our way. How'd you feel about that? I am really concerned
:58:03. > :58:08.about that. My local constituency councils have been at the forefront
:58:08. > :58:13.of the cuts that have already been pushed the way. I am not sure that
:58:13. > :58:19.those two councils, are another of other councils, will be able to cope
:58:19. > :58:25.with another 10% of cuts. everyone has to tighten their belts?
:58:25. > :58:28.absolutely. As a country we have got to start living within our means.
:58:28. > :58:32.The government have already gone a long way towards balancing the books
:58:32. > :58:36.but there is further to do. As we will hear this week from the
:58:36. > :58:40.Chancellor, we will hear the measures that will have to be taken
:58:40. > :58:47.if we are to start once more to live within our means and balance the
:58:47. > :58:50.books. Which means more cuts. has to be done fairly and the
:58:50. > :58:54.problem is when you look at the evidence, the cuts have so far
:58:54. > :58:58.really targeted the Northern Metropolitan councils
:58:58. > :59:04.disproportionately. I want to make sure that this does not do the
:59:04. > :59:09.same. Because the Northern councils are more aligned on public money?