:00:40. > :00:45.Good morning and welcome to The Sunday Politics. Alex Salmond says a
:00:46. > :00:49.vote for Scottish independence would be an act of national self belief.
:00:50. > :00:54.His deputy joins us live from the SNP conference in Perth. Is
:00:55. > :01:00.Whitehall meddling too much in modern affairs? The Communities
:01:01. > :01:05.Secretary, Eric Pickles, joins me for The Sunday Interview. Senior
:01:06. > :01:11.coppers will be answering questions this
:01:12. > :01:16.Hello, I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in the North West: Democracy Dibley
:01:17. > :01:18.style ` so are government London, does the London assembly
:01:19. > :01:33.have one arm tied behind its back? All of that to come. And the Home
:01:34. > :01:37.Office minister sacked by Nick Clegg, who says his party is like a
:01:38. > :01:42.wonky shopping trolley, which keeps veering off to the left. He will
:01:43. > :01:50.join us live at noon. With me to unpack all of this, Nick Watt, Helen
:01:51. > :01:56.Lewis and Iain Martin. They will be tweeting throughout the programme,
:01:57. > :02:01.using hashtag #bbcsp. It is the last day of the Scottish national party
:02:02. > :02:05.conference in Perth. We have discovered that Alex Salmond has
:02:06. > :02:10.been on the same diet as Beyonce. The SNP leader compared his attempts
:02:11. > :02:15.to lose weight with the campaign for independence - lots achieved so far,
:02:16. > :02:18.20 more to do. In a moment, I will be joined by the deputy leader of
:02:19. > :02:29.the SNP, Nicola Sturgeon. First they report on the independence
:02:30. > :02:33.campaign. September 18 2014, the date of destiny for Scotland, the
:02:34. > :02:37.day when these campaigners hope its people will decide to vote yes for
:02:38. > :02:43.independence. In a recent poll, only 14% said they knew enough to vote
:02:44. > :02:47.either way. That is unlikely to change any time soon. I think the
:02:48. > :02:50.Scottish people will be going to the polls next year still not knowing an
:02:51. > :02:57.awful lot of stuff which is important, because the outcome, in
:02:58. > :03:00.terms of taxation, debt, exactly what will happen to the allocation
:03:01. > :03:04.of assets between the two countries, will come about as a result of
:03:05. > :03:09.negotiation between a Scottish government and the UK Government.
:03:10. > :03:15.That is not stuff which will be known year. At the moment, polls
:03:16. > :03:18.suggest Scotland will decide to remain within the UK. A recent
:03:19. > :03:24.survey found that 44% of those questioned planned to vote no, 5%
:03:25. > :03:30.yes. But interestingly, the undecideds were at 31%, suggesting
:03:31. > :03:35.that Alex Salmond's task might be tough but not impossible. There are
:03:36. > :03:41.a number of reasons which make a vanilla campaign a good idea. It
:03:42. > :03:44.does not put off cautious voters, it allows for people to imagine their
:03:45. > :03:48.own version of what independence will be like, and crucially, it
:03:49. > :03:52.allows for the yes campaign to take advantage of any mistakes by the no
:03:53. > :03:56.campaign. In other words, the yes campaign are not out there with big
:03:57. > :04:01.ideas, they are just waiting for the no campaign to trip up. What we do
:04:02. > :04:06.know is that whatever happens next September, Scotland will be getting
:04:07. > :04:09.more power. From 2016, a separate income tax regime will come into
:04:10. > :04:12.force, giving the Scottish Parliament control over billions of
:04:13. > :04:16.pounds of revenue. What we do not know yet is how the alternative
:04:17. > :04:20.would pan out. There are issues which would be raised by
:04:21. > :04:24.independence, issues about how the national debt is allocated, what the
:04:25. > :04:28.currency will look like, how an independent Scotland would balance
:04:29. > :04:32.the books, because it would have a bigger job to do, even down the
:04:33. > :04:35.Whitehall government has to do. Those are really big issues, which a
:04:36. > :04:40.Scottish government would have to face, on top of whatever negotiation
:04:41. > :04:43.it had to have with the UK Government. The Scottish
:04:44. > :04:46.government's White Paper on independence, two to be published
:04:47. > :04:53.within weeks, should fill in some of the banks. But how Scotland votes in
:04:54. > :05:00.September may yet be determined by what it feels rather than what it
:05:01. > :05:02.knows. And joining me from Perth is Scotland's Deputy First Minister,
:05:03. > :05:10.Nicola Sturgeon. Nicola Sturgeon, we meet again! Hello, Andrew. Former
:05:11. > :05:14.leader of the SNP Gordon Wilson said, if this referendum fails, it
:05:15. > :05:19.will fail on the basis that people put their British identity ahead of
:05:20. > :05:25.their Scottish identity, so we have got to attack on the British
:05:26. > :05:29.identity - what does he mean? Gordon Wilson is a very respected, much
:05:30. > :05:34.loved former leader of the SNP. My view is that I do not think the
:05:35. > :05:38.independence referendum is really about identity. I am secure and
:05:39. > :05:46.proud of my Scottish identity, but this is a decision about where power
:05:47. > :05:50.best lies. Do decision-making powers best lie here in Scotland, with a
:05:51. > :05:54.government which is directly accountable to the people of
:05:55. > :05:57.Scotland, or does it best lie in Westminster, with governments which,
:05:58. > :06:02.very often, people in Scotland do not vote for? That is the issue at
:06:03. > :06:12.the heart of the campaign. Let me just clarify, you do not agree with
:06:13. > :06:17.him, that you need to go on the attack with regard to the British
:06:18. > :06:20.identity of Scottish people? No I do not think we are required to
:06:21. > :06:26.attack British identity. It is absolutely compatible for somebody
:06:27. > :06:29.to feel a sense of British identity but still support Scottish
:06:30. > :06:34.independence, because Scottish independence is about a transfer of
:06:35. > :06:37.power. It is about good government, accountable government, ensuring
:06:38. > :06:40.that decisions are taking here in Scotland, by people who have got the
:06:41. > :06:45.biggest stake in getting those decisions right. I represent a
:06:46. > :06:49.constituency in the south side of Glasgow, and if you speak to many
:06:50. > :06:54.people in my constituency, if you ask them their national identity,
:06:55. > :06:58.many of them would say Irish, Pakistani, Indian, Polish, and many
:06:59. > :07:02.of them will vote yes next year because they understand the issue at
:07:03. > :07:07.stake, which is the issue of where decisions are best taken. It looks
:07:08. > :07:10.like you are changing tack ex-, you have realised the softly softly
:07:11. > :07:13.approach, of saying that actually, nothing much will change, we will
:07:14. > :07:19.still have the Queen, the currency, and all the rest of it, is moving
:07:20. > :07:26.over towards voting for a left-wing future for Scotland... Well, I know
:07:27. > :07:32.that what we are doing is pointing out is pointing out the choice
:07:33. > :07:38.between two futures. If we vote yes, we take our own future into our own
:07:39. > :07:42.hands. We make sure that for ever after, we have governments which
:07:43. > :07:47.will be in demented policies which we have voted for. If we do not
:07:48. > :07:50.become independent, then we continue to run the risk of having
:07:51. > :07:55.governments not only that we do not vote for, but often, that Scotland
:07:56. > :07:59.rejects. We are seeing the dismantling of our system of social
:08:00. > :08:03.security. There are politicians in all of the UK parties who are
:08:04. > :08:08.itching to cut Scotland's share of spending. So Scotland faces a choice
:08:09. > :08:12.of two futures, and it is right to point out the positive consequences
:08:13. > :08:18.of voting yes, but also the consequences of voting no. But you
:08:19. > :08:22.are promising to reverse benefit cuts and increase the minimum wage.
:08:23. > :08:26.You would renationalise the Royal Mail, though how you would do that
:08:27. > :08:30.nobody knows. You are promising to cut energy bills. These are the kind
:08:31. > :08:36.of promises that parties make in a general election campaign, not in a
:08:37. > :08:41.once in 300 years extra stench or choice. Is the future of Scotland
:08:42. > :08:50.really going to be decided on the size of the minimum wage? --
:08:51. > :08:56.existential choice. A yes vote would be about bringing decision-making
:08:57. > :09:02.powers home, but we are also setting out some of the things an SNP
:09:03. > :09:03.government would do, if elected A decision on what the first
:09:04. > :09:07.government of an independent Scotland would be would not be taken
:09:08. > :09:13.in the referendum, that decision would be taken in the 2016 election.
:09:14. > :09:15.And all of the parties will put forward their offers to the
:09:16. > :09:20.electorate. We are setting out some of the things which we think it is
:09:21. > :09:26.important to be prioritised. These are things which have a lot of
:09:27. > :09:30.support in Scotland. We see the pain being felt by people because of the
:09:31. > :09:34.rising cost of energy bills, there is widespread opposition to some of
:09:35. > :09:37.the welfare cuts. So, we are setting out the options which are open to
:09:38. > :09:42.Scotland, but only open to Scotland if we have the powers of
:09:43. > :09:48.independence. Given that you seem to be promising aid permanent socialist
:09:49. > :09:52.near Varna, if Scotland is independent, if you are right of
:09:53. > :09:57.centre in Scotland, and I understand that is a minority pursuit where you
:09:58. > :10:02.are, but it would be a big mistake to vote for independence, in that
:10:03. > :10:06.case, wouldn't it? No, because the whole point of independence is that
:10:07. > :10:11.people get the country they want, and the government a vote for. So,
:10:12. > :10:15.right of centre people should not vote for independence? No, because
:10:16. > :10:19.people who are of that political persuasion in Scotland get the
:10:20. > :10:24.opportunity to vote for parties which represent that persuasion and
:10:25. > :10:28.if they can persuade a majority to vote likewise, then they will get a
:10:29. > :10:31.government which reflects that. That is the essence of independence.
:10:32. > :10:35.Right now, we have a Westminster government which most people in
:10:36. > :10:40.Scotland rejected at the last general election. That is hardly
:10:41. > :10:44.democratic. It is right and proper that the SNP, as the current
:10:45. > :10:59.government, points out the opportunities that would be opening
:11:00. > :11:03.up. Can I just clarify one thing, when we spoke on The Daily Politics
:11:04. > :11:09.earlier last week, you made it clear to me that Alex Salmond, we know he
:11:10. > :11:13.wants to debate with David Cameron, but you made it clear to me that he
:11:14. > :11:23.would debate with Alistair Darling as well, and Mr Carmichael... He
:11:24. > :11:26.made it clear yesterday. Well, he said to the BBC this morning that he
:11:27. > :11:29.would only debate with these people after he had had a debate with Mr
:11:30. > :11:36.Cameron, so who is right? I was making the point last week, and Alex
:11:37. > :11:39.Salmond was making it yesterday and this morning - let's have that
:11:40. > :11:43.agreement by David Cameron to come and debate with Alex Salmond, and
:11:44. > :11:49.then Alex Salmond, just like me will debate with allcomers. So if he
:11:50. > :11:55.does not get the David Cameron debate, then he will not do the
:11:56. > :12:00.others, is that right? Let's focus on is wading David Cameron to do the
:12:01. > :12:09.right thing. So, in other words he will not debate, yes or no? Members
:12:10. > :12:14.of the SNP government... We know that, but what about Alex Salmond?
:12:15. > :12:18.He said yesterday, we will debate with all sorts of people, including
:12:19. > :12:34.the people you have spoken about, but David Cameron should not be let
:12:35. > :12:42.off the hook just putting aside the independence issue, energy prices
:12:43. > :12:47.are now even playing into the SNP, so every political party has to do
:12:48. > :12:52.something about energy prices. Yes, it is clearly it is interesting is
:12:53. > :12:56.the difference between the SNP and the Labour approach. Ed Miliband
:12:57. > :12:59.electrified the party conference season when he said he would freeze
:13:00. > :13:03.energy prices for 20 months, seemingly having an amazing control
:13:04. > :13:08.over the energy market, where we know that essentially what pushes
:13:09. > :13:13.prices up the wholesale prices on world market. What Nicola Sturgeon
:13:14. > :13:17.is talking about is actually saying, this amount is added to your bills
:13:18. > :13:21.for green levies, and we are going to take them off your bills and they
:13:22. > :13:26.will be paid out of general taxation in an independent Scotland. That is
:13:27. > :13:29.a credible government, making a credible case, very different to
:13:30. > :13:34.what Labour is saying, although playing to the same agenda. So,
:13:35. > :13:39.Labour has got a populist policy, the SNP has also got a populist
:13:40. > :13:49.policy, the one group of people that do not have a decent response to
:13:50. > :13:52.this is the coalition? Exactly. What the SNP also have is a magic money
:13:53. > :13:57.pot, so that speech yesterday, you are right, it was very left wing,
:13:58. > :14:01.social democratic, but there was none of the icing like Labour has
:14:02. > :14:05.been talking about, with fiscal responsibility. I think that is the
:14:06. > :14:09.difference between the two. We know what the Tories would really like to
:14:10. > :14:12.do, all of these green levies which were put on our bills in the good
:14:13. > :14:18.times, when they were going to be the greenest party ever, the Tories
:14:19. > :14:24.would like to say, let's just wipe out some of them, put the rest on to
:14:25. > :14:29.some general government spending, but they have a problem, which is in
:14:30. > :14:38.the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Not only that, they really
:14:39. > :14:42.are stuck now. But there is something in the free schools debate
:14:43. > :14:46.this morning, the parties are now determined to send a message to
:14:47. > :14:51.their potential voters at the next election, that they are trying to
:14:52. > :14:55.fight their coalition partners. Do not expected any change in coalition
:14:56. > :14:59.policy or free schools policy before the election, but we can expect to
:15:00. > :15:03.hear the parties try to pretend that they are taking on their coalition
:15:04. > :15:08.partners. Mr Clegg has said, we would put this free schools policy
:15:09. > :15:13.into our manifesto, so is it not possible that the Tories will say,
:15:14. > :15:16.if you give us an overall majority, we will cut your electricity bill
:15:17. > :15:20.because we will get rid of these green levies? I think that is
:15:21. > :15:24.entirely possible. The Tories know that they are stuck on this, they do
:15:25. > :15:29.not have a response to Ed Miliband. How much should ministers in
:15:30. > :15:34.Whitehall medal in local decisions across England? In opposition, David
:15:35. > :15:40.Cameron said he wanted a fundamental shift of power from Whitehall to
:15:41. > :15:58.local people. He said, when one size fits all solution is...
:15:59. > :16:02.Eric Pickles described it as "an historic shift of power". But the
:16:03. > :16:08.Communitites and Local Government Secretary can't stop meddling. In
:16:09. > :16:11.the past few months Mr Pickles has tried to ban councils from using
:16:12. > :16:15.CCTV cameras and "spy cars" to fine motorists... Told councils how to
:16:16. > :16:20.act quicker to shut down illegal travellers' sites... Criticised
:16:21. > :16:24.councils who want to raise council tax... Insisted councils release
:16:25. > :16:30.land to residents hoping to build their own property... And stated new
:16:31. > :16:35.homes should have a special built in bin storage section. It seems not a
:16:36. > :16:39.week goes by without a policy announcement from the hyper active
:16:40. > :16:44.Mr Pickles. So is the government still committed to localism, or is
:16:45. > :16:47.it all about centralism now? And Communities Secretary Eric
:16:48. > :17:01.Pickles joins me now for the Sunday Interview.
:17:02. > :17:07.Welcome. Nice to be here. You said in July you were going to give town
:17:08. > :17:16.halls the power to wreak their local magic. So why issue diktats from
:17:17. > :17:22.Westminster? It is not about giving power to local councils, it is going
:17:23. > :17:30.beyond that to local people. If local councils refuse to open up
:17:31. > :17:35.their books, we have to go straight to local people. You have attacked
:17:36. > :17:40.councillors using so-called spy cameras to enforce parking rules.
:17:41. > :17:46.Why is that your business? Because there is an injustice taking place.
:17:47. > :17:53.You cannot use fines to raise money and that is plainly happening. If
:17:54. > :17:59.you get yourself a ticket from a CCTV, it could be days or weeks
:18:00. > :18:03.before that lands on your doorstep and you have virtually no
:18:04. > :18:09.possibility to be able to defend yourself. But just leave it to
:18:10. > :18:15.people to vote out the council then. We are trying to enforce the law and
:18:16. > :18:22.it clearly states that you cannot use parking fines in order to fund
:18:23. > :18:27.general rate. So why are you not taking them to court if they are
:18:28. > :18:35.breaking the law? There have been a number of court cases taken by local
:18:36. > :18:42.residents. I am there to stand by local residents. Your even trying to
:18:43. > :18:48.micromanage, allowing motorist s to park for 15 minutes in local high
:18:49. > :18:52.street. Why is that your business? I'm trying to ensure that local
:18:53. > :19:00.authorities understand the importance of the town centre. If
:19:01. > :19:03.you look at all opinion polls, right now there is a five-minute leeway
:19:04. > :19:09.but there are many cases of people being jumped on by parking officials
:19:10. > :19:15.for quite trivial things. It is about saying, surely I can go and
:19:16. > :19:20.get a pint of milk. But a party that dines out on localism, that is a
:19:21. > :19:26.matter for local people, not the men in Whitehall. I have to be on the
:19:27. > :19:34.side of local people. That person who wants to go and get a pint of
:19:35. > :19:39.milk. Ultimately it is a matter for them. It is a matter for the
:19:40. > :19:45.council. But a little bit of criticism is not a bad thing. You
:19:46. > :19:48.have now declared war on the wheelie bin and suggested that new homes
:19:49. > :20:00.should have built in storage sections. You just cannot help
:20:01. > :20:06.meddling! I suppose that is possible. You are a meddler! I am in
:20:07. > :20:16.charge of building regulations and planning. So I may have some
:20:17. > :20:26.responsibility there. Another one, interfering in local planning
:20:27. > :20:30.decisions. A couple of places, you ruled in favour of developers. They
:20:31. > :20:39.want to build over 200 houses against the wishes of the parish and
:20:40. > :20:43.district councils. The local MP said the Secretary of State's decision
:20:44. > :20:50.runs roughshod over any concept of localism. Now I have to be a
:20:51. > :20:58.blushing violet because of course this is still potentially subject to
:20:59. > :21:11.judicial review. I have to act properly. And Apple went is entitled
:21:12. > :21:16.to justice. -- an applicant. A local authority has a duty to ensure that
:21:17. > :21:24.is adequate housing for people in their area. This was not a decision
:21:25. > :21:28.that I took as a personal decision, it was on the advice of an
:21:29. > :21:35.inspector. But you contradict what David Cameron himself said in 2 12,
:21:36. > :21:43.he spoke about a vision where we give communities much more say and
:21:44. > :21:46.local control. People in villages fear big housing estates being
:21:47. > :21:59.plonked from above. You have just done exactly that. After a proper
:22:00. > :22:04.quasi judicial enquiry. What we have is planning framework which local
:22:05. > :22:10.people can decide where it goes But they cannot say, nothing here. They
:22:11. > :22:15.have to have a five-year housing supply. Previous to this government
:22:16. > :22:24.decided exactly where houses would go, now local people can take the
:22:25. > :22:27.lead. Anna Silbury said because of the way your department rules, local
:22:28. > :22:36.authorities now have no alternative but to agree development on green
:22:37. > :22:40.belt land. I do not accept that I think around Nottingham there are
:22:41. > :22:48.particular problems with regards to the green belt. The matter has been
:22:49. > :22:59.referred back. the green belt. The matter has been
:23:00. > :23:06.want to see development on the green belt but on Brownfield site. We want
:23:07. > :23:06.to see underused land. But you have to remember why we have the green
:23:07. > :23:13.belt. Not to remember why we have the green
:23:14. > :23:13.nice, it is their to prevent conurbations bumping into one
:23:14. > :23:18.another. Your conurbations bumping into one
:23:19. > :23:23.is vocal about the need to deal what he calls the historic under
:23:24. > :23:35.provision of housing. Shelter says we need 250,000 new homes per year.
:23:36. > :23:36.provision of housing. Shelter says Houston statistics are getting
:23:37. > :23:38.there, but nowhere near that. - housing. You cannot
:23:39. > :23:41.there, but nowhere near that. - localism agenda as well as meeting
:23:42. > :23:54.housing demand. I do not accept that. We inherited a position where
:23:55. > :24:00.the lowest level of building since the 1920s was in place. But it has
:24:01. > :24:05.steadily improved. It does take a while. You cannot have a localism
:24:06. > :24:10.agenda where people call the shots on housing as well as meeting the
:24:11. > :24:17.housing demand. People have a duty to ensure that future generations
:24:18. > :24:21.have somewhere to live. You cannot pull up the drawbridge. There is
:24:22. > :24:27.nothing incompatible between that and localism. Because someone has to
:24:28. > :24:34.be the voice of those people who are going to live there and to make sure
:24:35. > :24:40.there is the proper amount. Plans now exist for more than 150,000
:24:41. > :24:46.homes to be built on protected land, including the green belt. That will
:24:47. > :24:51.mean riding over local concerns Each application will be taken on
:24:52. > :24:55.its own merits. To suggest that there is an assault on the green
:24:56. > :25:00.belt is as far from the truth as you can imagine. Should Andrew Mitchell
:25:01. > :25:04.get his job back if the years exonerated? I would be honoured to
:25:05. > :25:12.sit with Andrew Mitchell in the Cabinet. I have always believed his
:25:13. > :25:15.version. But it is a matter for the Prime Minister who he has in
:25:16. > :25:23.government. He would have no problem in seeing him back in Cabinet?
:25:24. > :25:27.Absolutely not. Your mother answered Vulcan junior minister Nick balls
:25:28. > :25:33.said about the Royal Charter for the press, there's nothing we have done
:25:34. > :25:37.that troubles me as much as this. Is that your view? It is not. I accept
:25:38. > :25:45.the compromise agreement put together. If the press want to have
:25:46. > :25:50.an additional protection that the Royal Charter offers, then they can
:25:51. > :25:56.move into the system. But if they want to continue independently that
:25:57. > :26:03.is acceptable to me. But you previously echoed Thomas Jefferson,
:26:04. > :26:07.you said for a free society to operate the river of a free press
:26:08. > :26:16.has to flow without restriction That is what I said at the time We
:26:17. > :26:22.had to find a compromise. And that seems to me to be a better
:26:23. > :26:34.compromise. Let me just show you this little montage of pictures that
:26:35. > :26:43.we have. I could not be happier Then you are in the Desert and there
:26:44. > :26:57.you are in San Francisco. Then you are in the casino. That is my
:26:58. > :27:02.personal favourite. These students took a cardboard cutout of you and
:27:03. > :27:08.took it round the world with them. Did you ever think you would become
:27:09. > :27:14.a student icon? I always felt secretly that that might happen one
:27:15. > :27:21.day. But it came earlier in my career than I thought! Why would
:27:22. > :27:29.they do that? I think they thought I could do with a bit of an airing! I
:27:30. > :27:38.went to Norfolk earlier, but that looks better. Thank you.
:27:39. > :27:40.On Wednesday senior police folk including chief constables, will be
:27:41. > :27:45.questioned by MPs about what's become known as Plebgate. That's the
:27:46. > :27:48.incident in Downing Street last year which led to the resignation of the
:27:49. > :27:50.government chief whip Andrew Mitchell. Last week the Independent
:27:51. > :27:52.Police Complaints Commission questioned the "honesty and
:27:53. > :27:57.integrity" of police officers who met Mr Mitchell following the row.
:27:58. > :28:05.So do scandals like this affect public trust in the police? Here's
:28:06. > :28:10.Adam Fleming. It's a story of politics, the
:28:11. > :28:13.police, and CCTV. No, not Andrew Mitchell, but an MP's researcher
:28:14. > :28:20.called Alex Bryce and his partner Iain Feis.
:28:21. > :28:24.It started on a summer night in 2011. They'd been in Parliament
:28:25. > :28:28.After a few words with a police officer, Ian was wrestled to the
:28:29. > :28:33.ground. Alex came to have a look and the same thing happened to him. Both
:28:34. > :28:38.were arrested and charged. These pictures emerged on day one of their
:28:39. > :28:45.trial. A trial that was halted because the police version of events
:28:46. > :28:52.just didn't match the footage. A lot of people with incidence like this
:28:53. > :28:56.which we experienced, people think there is no smoke without fire. So
:28:57. > :29:03.when we said we did nothing wrong, people would think police just would
:29:04. > :29:06.not do that. There is always that underlying view that some people
:29:07. > :29:12.have. I think that has been challenged and people who know us
:29:13. > :29:15.believe that. This year the Met apologised and paid compensation.
:29:16. > :29:21.And it's led to an unlikely sort of friendship. When the truth came out
:29:22. > :29:25.about the Andrew Mitchell story I actually sent him an e-mail to
:29:26. > :29:31.congratulate him about the truth coming out. He did send a reply
:29:32. > :29:35.acknowledging that. So where are we with THAT saga? Remember last
:29:36. > :29:38.September? Andrew Mitchell had a row with police at the gates of Downing
:29:39. > :29:41.Street about his bike. He lost his job as chief whip after accusations
:29:42. > :29:48.he called the officers plebs. That, he's always denied. This week the
:29:49. > :29:51.police watchdog the IPCC suggested that three officers may have lied
:29:52. > :29:57.about a meeting with him at the height of the scandal. Add that to
:29:58. > :30:01.the charge sheet of cases that haven't exactly flattered the
:30:02. > :30:06.police. Like the revelation of a cover up over Hillsborough. The
:30:07. > :30:11.prosecution of an officer from the Met over the death of Ian Tomlinson
:30:12. > :30:14.during protests in 2009. Along with news that undercover officers were
:30:15. > :30:20.told to smear the family of Stephen Lawrence. During Thursday's protest
:30:21. > :30:25.by teachers in Westminster the police operation was really, really
:30:26. > :30:28.relaxed. And recent scandals have done nothing to affect society's
:30:29. > :30:32.view of the boys and girls in blue - or should I say hi-vis. About 6 % of
:30:33. > :30:39.the public say they trust the police. And that's not budged since
:30:40. > :30:48.pollsters started measuring it 0 years ago.
:30:49. > :30:54.Of course, in Britain, crime is down, so the perception might be
:30:55. > :30:59.that the police is doing a good job. And the rank-and-file recently
:31:00. > :31:04.seamed pretty chipper at this awards ceremony. Is it a good time to be a
:31:05. > :31:10.police officer? It is a good time. Despite all of the headlines? Still
:31:11. > :31:15.a good time. But speak to officers privately, and they say Plebgate is
:31:16. > :31:18.affecting how the public see them. Some of them also think
:31:19. > :31:24.politicians, the Tories especially, are enjoying that a little too much.
:31:25. > :31:31.Adam Fleming reporting there. Going head-to-head on this issue of trust
:31:32. > :31:37.in the police, a Sunday Mirror columnist and Peter Kirkham, former
:31:38. > :31:42.chief inspector. Peter Kirkham, let me come to you first. Plebgate, the
:31:43. > :31:48.cover-ups over John Charles De menace, the death of Ian Tomlinson,
:31:49. > :31:54.the industrial deception over Hillsborough, why is the culture of
:31:55. > :31:58.deceit so prevalent in the police? I do not agree there is a cultural
:31:59. > :32:03.deceit. These are all individual incidents which raise individual
:32:04. > :32:06.issues. I would suggest that your short headline summarising each of
:32:07. > :32:15.them has taken the most negative view of it. How can you be positive
:32:16. > :32:19.about the police's behaviour over Hillsborough? It remains to be seen
:32:20. > :32:21.with the inquiry but we are probably talking about a handful of senior
:32:22. > :32:32.officers, dealing with the paperwork. Well over 100 testimonies
:32:33. > :32:36.being doctored by the police. Well, those testimonies were true to start
:32:37. > :32:41.with, so the officers have told the truth, and they have been changed
:32:42. > :32:46.for some reason. By the police. By the police all lawyers we have got
:32:47. > :32:52.this thing that the police conflates everything. There are 43 forces
:32:53. > :33:00.there is ACPO, there is the College Of Policing... People say it was a
:33:01. > :33:04.handful of police officers, it wasn't, it was six senior police
:33:05. > :33:08.officers who were alleged to have doctored 106 D4 statements. Even
:33:09. > :33:16.today we are hearing that more than 1000 officers are yet to be spoken
:33:17. > :33:20.to about Hillsborough. -- 164. Do we pretend that Hillsborough, and some
:33:21. > :33:26.of these examples, are the exception rather than the rule? What is the
:33:27. > :33:31.evidence that this is now prevalent in our police? I think there is a
:33:32. > :33:35.lot of evidence, and Plebgate is probably the thing which has
:33:36. > :33:39.clinched it. The public want to know, how deep does this girl? The
:33:40. > :33:44.audacity of a group of policemen who think they can set up a Cabinet
:33:45. > :33:48.minister. Five of those who were arrested and bailed still have not
:33:49. > :33:52.been charged. One of those officers actually wrote an e-mail pretending
:33:53. > :33:57.to be a member of the public. I do not see what the problem is in
:33:58. > :34:01.prosecuting them for that. Taking Plebgate, there are loads of
:34:02. > :34:04.different bits of that incident There is the officers on duty in
:34:05. > :34:09.Downing Street, the issue of who leaked the story to the Sun, there
:34:10. > :34:13.are the officers who claim to have been there who would appear not to
:34:14. > :34:15.have been there, and then we have got the West Midlands meeting
:34:16. > :34:24.issue, which has sort of been resolved this week. There has been
:34:25. > :34:27.misconduct. But at a lower level. But it is the audacity of an
:34:28. > :34:32.organisation which thinks it can take on an elected minister and
:34:33. > :34:36.destroy him for their own political purposes, at a time when the
:34:37. > :34:39.Government are cutting please pay, when they are freezing their
:34:40. > :34:44.pensions and reducing their numbers. It looks very much to all of us the
:34:45. > :34:47.public, that the police are at war with the government, and they are
:34:48. > :34:51.going to do anything they can to discredit the Government. The police
:34:52. > :35:01.would have every reason to be at war with the Government, because there
:35:02. > :35:06.if there is a crisis of trust.. But it looks like they fitted up a
:35:07. > :35:11.Cabinet minister. That remains to be seen, it is being investigated. We
:35:12. > :35:16.know that those Birmingham officers, they totally misrepresented to, if
:35:17. > :35:20.not lied outright, about what was said. Again, that is a
:35:21. > :35:24.misrepresentation of what happened. If you actually go and look at what
:35:25. > :35:31.is said, it is plain from the context, they were saying, he has
:35:32. > :35:37.told us nothing new. But he had in the transcript, it said he hadn t.
:35:38. > :35:43.He would not admit he had used the word pleb. He apologised profusely,
:35:44. > :35:47.he said it would never happen again, he said many things that he had not
:35:48. > :35:53.said before. I agree, which is presumably... Thereon many police
:35:54. > :35:57.forces in this country, they have one of the toughest jobs in the
:35:58. > :36:03.land, they end up getting involved in almost anything which happens in
:36:04. > :36:08.society, and there are obviously a number of difficult examples, but
:36:09. > :36:16.what is the evidence that it is out of hand, other than just several bad
:36:17. > :36:19.apples? This bad apples argument, we have some amazing police people
:36:20. > :36:22.thank God, but it is because of those that we have to root out the
:36:23. > :36:27.bad ones, the ones that are possibly corrupt. From where most of us are
:36:28. > :36:30.standing, the ones who are being accused of being corrupt, there does
:36:31. > :36:34.not seem to be any process to deal with these people. The trouble with
:36:35. > :36:39.a rotten apple is that it spreads. It is not fair on the good cops to
:36:40. > :36:42.be tainted by this, and I think the police force, as an institution ..
:36:43. > :36:51.For all of us, we have to respect the police. There is a problem, is
:36:52. > :36:56.there not? People do worry that if you can fit up a Cabinet minister,
:36:57. > :37:00.you can fit up anybody... . I would disagree that anybody has proved
:37:01. > :37:05.that anybody has been fitted up We are yet to hear what happened at the
:37:06. > :37:09.gates of Downing Street. But what we do know about the gates of Downing
:37:10. > :37:16.Street is that we were told by the police officers that passers-by had
:37:17. > :37:26.heard this incredible row, where Mitchell's file went was bullied.
:37:27. > :37:32.That is not true... . They did not use those words, actually. All
:37:33. > :37:43.right, but it is clear that the Police Federation jumped on this as
:37:44. > :37:48.a politically motivated campaign... I have always said that politics
:37:49. > :37:52.should be kept out of policing. The federation, they cannot go on
:37:53. > :37:55.strike, but this was to covertly political, so I criticise them for
:37:56. > :38:02.that. Do we need a better way of monitoring the police? We need a
:38:03. > :38:08.more competent and properly resourced Independent police
:38:09. > :38:11.commission. But if you look at those Bravery Awards, every police
:38:12. > :38:18.officer, every year, who acts with bravery... That is the police force
:38:19. > :38:25.we want to believe in. That is the police force you have got. We will
:38:26. > :38:27.leave it there. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will be speaking
:38:28. > :38:41.to former Lib Minister Jeremy Browne. And in The Week Ahead,
:38:42. > :38:52.I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up: Democracy Dibley style, so our
:38:53. > :38:58.government plans to promote parish councils worthwhile? I do not want
:38:59. > :39:03.to see hard`working families paying a lot more in council tax and all we
:39:04. > :39:08.get for it is an extra year of government.
:39:09. > :39:13.The Labour leader of Manchester City Council Sir Richard Leese and blood
:39:14. > :39:18.them for Southport John Pugh enjoy me today. Sir Richard, you had a
:39:19. > :39:24.trip to China this week with George Osborne.
:39:25. > :39:29.We were visiting their Beijing Construction and Engineering Group.
:39:30. > :39:33.They will create 16,000 jobs in the Manchester region and the North
:39:34. > :39:37.West. This will help us build bigger links with what is currently the
:39:38. > :39:41.second biggest economy in the world. John, this is good news not just for
:39:42. > :39:47.Manchester but the entire region. It is good to see this result for the
:39:48. > :39:53.North West. It could have been a long trip. The
:39:54. > :39:56.Labour Leader of Manchester City Council and the Chancellor of the
:39:57. > :39:59.Exchequer both travelled to China. Political differences were put to
:40:00. > :40:04.one side and the interest of the economy and the huge investment into
:40:05. > :40:08.what has been called Airport City. As Euan Doak reports, it is the
:40:09. > :40:13.latest place of foreign investment into the region. George Osborne has
:40:14. > :40:18.been on a Chinese charm offensive, promoting the benefits of investing
:40:19. > :40:23.in Britain. There is no better example of that
:40:24. > :40:26.than the ?800 million of investment to Manchester creating 16,000 jobs,
:40:27. > :40:31.it is one of the biggest development since the Olympic Park and the
:40:32. > :40:36.Olympic Games. It is an investment that could bring
:40:37. > :40:40.bigger deals in the future. The fact of having a Chinese partner means
:40:41. > :40:45.that it begins the process of building relationships with China on
:40:46. > :40:48.behalf of the airport and one of our major objectives is to achieve
:40:49. > :40:53.direct flights between Manchester and China. The Chancellor sees
:40:54. > :40:58.Chinese cash as vital to this region's economy and the hope that
:40:59. > :41:01.any Chinese company looking to set up their UK headquarters will be
:41:02. > :41:04.sold here in Manchester rather than London.
:41:05. > :41:09.It is not just in China that businesses are looking to do deals.
:41:10. > :41:13.There has been ?581 million of overseas investment over 17 deals in
:41:14. > :41:19.the region. An increase of 21% over the same
:41:20. > :41:23.period last year. Some of our most high`profile companies are now
:41:24. > :41:26.foreign`owned. We have seen it in a number of countries involved in
:41:27. > :41:32.accusations in the UK. I read only today that a Canadian
:41:33. > :41:35.business picked up a North West company and a few months ago a
:41:36. > :41:39.Swedish confectionery business came into the market. There are lots of
:41:40. > :41:45.examples of other countries that are viewing the North West as an
:41:46. > :41:48.attractive area to invest into. As high`growth economies around the
:41:49. > :41:53.world mature, they become potential destinations for North West's goods
:41:54. > :42:00.and services. Next year for Liverpool and the whole of the UK,
:42:01. > :42:04.the international business is happening # international business
:42:05. > :42:07.Bestival is happening. That will promote more growth. Politicians
:42:08. > :42:11.could find their roles in promoting growth vital for the region's
:42:12. > :42:16.recovery. We are joined in the studio by Peter
:42:17. > :42:23.Wild, an expert in inward investment at Manchester's Metropolitan
:42:24. > :42:27.University's business deal. Talk us through the detail of this
:42:28. > :42:33.deal, Sir Richard. We are talking about a 4 million square foot plus
:42:34. > :42:38.development around Manchester's Logistics and commercial space. It
:42:39. > :42:44.needs to be near an airport and the deal that we have done last week
:42:45. > :42:48.brings together Manchester airport, the Greater Manchester Pension Fund
:42:49. > :42:54.and Carillion, one of our biggest engineering companies. They have
:42:55. > :42:58.done the big schemes like King's Cross and elsewhere. And also the
:42:59. > :43:01.Beijing Construction and Engineering Group, one of the three biggest
:43:02. > :43:11.construction groups in China. One of the top 100 countries `` companies
:43:12. > :43:15.and China. They have all taken out a joint`venture in the development of
:43:16. > :43:18.Airport City. More importantly, it will create 16,000 jobs for
:43:19. > :43:24.Manchester and the North West. They will end up with a 20% stake but
:43:25. > :43:27.they are putting in half of the investment, is that correct? We will
:43:28. > :43:30.not talk about the details as to who is investing what, we will stick to
:43:31. > :43:37.the shares and the joint`venture but they will make a major contribution
:43:38. > :43:41.to this company who will deliver Airport City. They will be investing
:43:42. > :43:46.more than 20%? I will not talk about the details. There is commercial
:43:47. > :43:53.sensitivity about who will be investing. What it does do is give
:43:54. > :43:58.us far more confidence that not only will be deliver Airport City, we
:43:59. > :44:04.will do it quickly. The figure is ?810.
:44:05. > :44:10.Yes, that is correct. How did it come about that you got this major
:44:11. > :44:13.Chinese investment? We went out to the market and out to chain and
:44:14. > :44:20.sought partners for Airport City. They came as one of the bidders for
:44:21. > :44:26.that and they came out as one of the people we really wanted to work with
:44:27. > :44:30.and Airport City. Was there no interest from the City of London,
:44:31. > :44:38.for example? There was a vast array of people wanting to do this. Well
:44:39. > :44:43.we want to say Chinese investment, it is strange that London which has
:44:44. > :44:47.huge resources is not investing into Manchester and the North West to the
:44:48. > :44:51.same scale. Well, I do not think that is the case, however, it is
:44:52. > :44:56.great to have a Chinese company investing in our Airport City. It is
:44:57. > :44:59.also about creating direct links to China, internationalising trade and
:45:00. > :45:05.having more Manchester companies trading with China and bringing
:45:06. > :45:09.future investment. How important was the government in
:45:10. > :45:15.securing this investment? Airport City has been supported by the
:45:16. > :45:19.government and that it is one of a number of designated enterprise
:45:20. > :45:23.zones. That makes bringing in business more attractive. We want to
:45:24. > :45:27.bring in new international business and that designation has helped us
:45:28. > :45:31.enormously in selling Airport City to potential partners and investors.
:45:32. > :45:38.Do you think the government has done enough? The government have done a
:45:39. > :45:45.great deal because they recognise that China has a huge amount of cash
:45:46. > :45:49.to invest because of its trade surplus and there is no point of
:45:50. > :45:51.ignoring that. The government are really appreciating what is needed
:45:52. > :45:58.and doing the right thing and the fact we have a Chancellor of
:45:59. > :46:02.Exchequer and important figures like Sir Richard out of the shows that
:46:03. > :46:05.everyone recognises that. Having the Chancellor there was great and we
:46:06. > :46:09.recognise that. We have had an 8 month delay in our relationship with
:46:10. > :46:13.China because of the behaviour of the quality government, they have
:46:14. > :46:19.not always been that helpful. For example, there was a diplomatic
:46:20. > :46:23.falling out around 18 months ago connected to the visit of the Dalai
:46:24. > :46:28.Lama to this country and that led to a bit of a freeze on relationships.
:46:29. > :46:33.I am glad that it is healing now and for cities like Manchester we are
:46:34. > :46:39.able to make progress. And, yes with the support of the Chancellor
:46:40. > :46:42.of the check. Sangin mac human rights are very important to the
:46:43. > :46:44.people of Thai debt as well and the government were correct to take that
:46:45. > :46:52.stance. The Chinese Goodman should adjust to that. Peter, why are China
:46:53. > :47:02.investing in Manchester? They see opportunities for the long`term
:47:03. > :47:06.Around the world, Great Britain s football, creative media industries
:47:07. > :47:10.are recognised. It is not just about advanced manufacturing. Foreign
:47:11. > :47:15.countries C grade opportunity to invest and eyes. The North West is
:47:16. > :47:21.proving to be more popular than other regions in England? That is
:47:22. > :47:27.correct. We have a remarkable diversify economy now. We have
:47:28. > :47:32.creative corridors and all sorts of things going on, it is a great place
:47:33. > :47:35.to invest. I teach at Manchester Metropolitan University where we
:47:36. > :47:38.have a lot of overseas students and outside of London it is basically
:47:39. > :47:47.Manchester and Liverpool that they have heard of. Is there a downside?
:47:48. > :47:55.Theoretically, yes. Things like the dense, office could be expatriates
:47:56. > :47:58.did. These guys are not hot money. This is real long`term investment
:47:59. > :48:01.and building strategic alliances with the stamp of their
:48:02. > :48:08.government's approval. This is not hot money so we do not have to be
:48:09. > :48:14.afraid. What does it say that there can be a struggle to get companies
:48:15. > :48:18.to invest in these kind of projects within our own country? It says that
:48:19. > :48:23.we have come to one of the toughest economic times and our country. It
:48:24. > :48:28.is not just these huge glamour projects however, it is small and
:48:29. > :48:37.medium`sized businesses that are getting a lot of investment from
:48:38. > :48:42.these foreign companies. We have just worked with a major investment
:48:43. > :48:45.bank who are booking for ten small to medium`size businesses to work
:48:46. > :48:48.with. They want to extend this project for another four or five
:48:49. > :48:51.years and it is the best business training I have come across. That is
:48:52. > :48:56.American bankers looking at our entrepreneurs and giving them
:48:57. > :49:02.backing. In terms of Airport City, how important the project as that
:49:03. > :49:07.for the long`term? The infrastructure links are massive. It
:49:08. > :49:13.is also about recognising that we have a role to play on the
:49:14. > :49:17.international stage, which is great. It is also something, these projects
:49:18. > :49:22.have a tremendous impact and that he can take confidence from. I have
:49:23. > :49:26.worked with a lot of SMEs and you could sense these people are just
:49:27. > :49:33.waiting for a few more little pieces of the jigsaw to be put together and
:49:34. > :49:38.they are ready to go. We are on the verge of something quite interesting
:49:39. > :49:42.if this can't continue. In terms of the long`term finance and the City
:49:43. > :49:47.of London, we have had a problem in this country for some time around
:49:48. > :49:52.than the catalysts who want a quick return, they want to be in and out
:49:53. > :49:59.over the years. We need a long`term investors and that is something that
:50:00. > :50:10.China is offering us. It is a strategic idea for the Chinese to
:50:11. > :50:15.invest in the North West. We do not have a queue of local investors
:50:16. > :50:19.most of it is coming from abroad. They have long`term commitments
:50:20. > :50:25.which is good. Thank you for joining us, Peter. We are talking about
:50:26. > :50:29.parish councils and you may have images of cleaning out the duck
:50:30. > :50:32.pond. The smallest councils can be the
:50:33. > :50:35.most responsive and the government would like to see more of them,
:50:36. > :50:40.particularly in our large towns and cities. Cumbria, Lancashire and
:50:41. > :50:47.Cheshire have more than 800 pound or parish councils. Cumbria's cover
:50:48. > :50:52.around 66% of the population. Cheshire as 58% and Lancashire has
:50:53. > :51:00.42%. That slide away and the big metropolitan areas. Merseyside has
:51:01. > :51:04.just 23 councils doubling 13% of the population and an Greater Manchester
:51:05. > :51:10.the are fewer at 15 parishes, representing 5% of the population.
:51:11. > :51:13.Do we need more of them or are they another costly layer of bureaucracy?
:51:14. > :51:22.Stuart Pollitt has been to Appleton, near Wigan, where they are
:51:23. > :51:29.pondering just that issue. When you think parish councils, you may think
:51:30. > :51:37.about the Vicar of deadly. 81, do we have any amendments? `` vicar of
:51:38. > :51:41.deadly. Now the government wants more parish councils, although, not
:51:42. > :51:45.quite like this one, so do these campaigners and Atherton think it
:51:46. > :51:50.will help their library to stay open? Will it be able to protect
:51:51. > :51:55.this piece of land? All of them think resurrecting their local
:51:56. > :52:00.parish council will help to resurrect their town. Norman, you
:52:01. > :52:06.want a parish council to rectify this cemetery. What difference would
:52:07. > :52:10.it make? Sangin mac I think it would make local people address these
:52:11. > :52:21.issues and without a town council, none of these issues would be looked
:52:22. > :52:27.at. Any parish council is not different to other councils. They
:52:28. > :52:31.would be another additional cost of ?10 per year. What do you get for
:52:32. > :52:35.your Saudi tenner? The powers are limited but they are responsible for
:52:36. > :52:39.things like Robert Hall is, war memorials and clocks. They can be
:52:40. > :52:43.about development but do not have the power to stop them. It is not
:52:44. > :52:46.worth the money, according to Stephen, who represents residents
:52:47. > :52:52.who would fall under any new council. I do not want to see those
:52:53. > :52:56.hard`working families in my ward paying a lot more for council tax
:52:57. > :53:00.when all they get for it as an extra tier of government. Critics would
:53:01. > :53:05.say another layer of bureaucracy is the last thing that is needed.
:53:06. > :53:10.Sangin mac the only bureaucracy there is this for the town clerk.
:53:11. > :53:14.All the rest of the voluntary councillors are working in the
:53:15. > :53:20.treaties. Despite these powers, valve Houghton thanks people would
:53:21. > :53:24.benefit. Sangin mac they would provide a voice for the town and the
:53:25. > :53:37.shops. They would help us along the way. It was the 1970s and height of
:53:38. > :53:39.northern Soul and Wigan and Atherton and many other areas lost their
:53:40. > :53:47.parish councils. Now the government has promised to cut petitions needed
:53:48. > :53:51.for a new council and to make councils decide within a year
:53:52. > :53:57.whether a new parish council can be set up. They are hoping to start
:53:58. > :54:01.hosting new parish council meetings here. Do the people want that? Would
:54:02. > :54:13.you be happy to pay the extra money for that? I would not mind that It
:54:14. > :54:18.is not much, is it? Wigan Council is consulting residents on the idea.
:54:19. > :54:24.The last thing that people try to get a town council, people were not
:54:25. > :54:27.interested. Very few people voted, this is dragging on because perhaps
:54:28. > :54:36.there has not been that great deal of interest for people for a town
:54:37. > :54:42.council. Sangin mac `` Sangin mac are people really that interested?
:54:43. > :54:48.Will they be able to convert enough people, that is the question?
:54:49. > :54:56.This is about the government pushing double`click Asian agenda. There are
:54:57. > :55:00.problems of a divided responsibility and when things go wrong they do not
:55:01. > :55:03.know whether it is the parish council, the borough council or the
:55:04. > :55:08.county council who is responsible. There is another solution, I think.
:55:09. > :55:12.We are looking at a situation and local government regardless of what
:55:13. > :55:16.government is in place there is the emergence of social care and I
:55:17. > :55:18.concede metropolitan councils losing social care responsibilities and
:55:19. > :55:27.that creates the possibility of smaller local unitary councils. This
:55:28. > :55:33.would make more residents happy That can be done as an alternative
:55:34. > :55:37.but suggests for a parish council. At the moment, parish councils are
:55:38. > :55:45.struggling to find people to fill all of their spots. What problem are
:55:46. > :55:52.you trying to solve? Sometimes people think the representation may
:55:53. > :55:55.be at a local level and that it speaks for the neighbourhood better
:55:56. > :55:58.than the local councillor well. That's a problem people will
:55:59. > :56:03.perceive, but you should be cable for what you wish for because a lot
:56:04. > :56:08.of these arrangements are set up with initial views as but after a
:56:09. > :56:14.while this Wayne 's. Do you like the idea of more parish councils? In
:56:15. > :56:23.areas like Manchester that are put your areas, it can be difficult I
:56:24. > :56:28.can see a case for town councillors or parish councils and an area like
:56:29. > :56:32.Cumbria where if you are down and around a Barrow, you might see
:56:33. > :56:36.Carlisle as being somewhat remote. They do not have any relevance like
:56:37. > :56:41.a place like Manchester. They do not have relevance to a dense suburban
:56:42. > :56:47.area where I think citizens can work through local community groups. Even
:56:48. > :56:50.if it means that local people believe they have more of a direct
:56:51. > :56:56.say and how local services will be delivered? I do not think it does
:56:57. > :57:02.that, it gives them control over that ?10. I think local people want
:57:03. > :57:06.to have an influence and local said and how their tax money is spent.
:57:07. > :57:14.They want us to devise systems that will give them greater say. Green
:57:15. > :57:21.belt issue is a good example. When decisions need to get made, they are
:57:22. > :57:25.made by the higher council. Is it partly vested interest and
:57:26. > :57:30.council's not wanting to give up power or finance? Not really, the
:57:31. > :57:37.council raises its own funds and spends them and what it is allowed
:57:38. > :57:40.to spend them on. The City Council will not lose any power whatsoever
:57:41. > :57:47.but it would distract citizens from addressing the big issues that face
:57:48. > :57:53.them. OK, neither of you very keen. Here's a round`up of the rest of the
:57:54. > :57:57.league's news. Rochdale Council deferred a decision on a pay rise
:57:58. > :58:01.for it chief executive. There will now be an inquiry into
:58:02. > :58:08.local government pay after Simon ` at lead the process. Family and
:58:09. > :58:12.friends of a teenager who took her life are campaigning for stricter
:58:13. > :58:19.laws and cyber bullying. An inquest said comments on Facebook conjugated
:58:20. > :58:23.to the death of a young girl. A Cheshire family are going to the
:58:24. > :58:28.Court of Appeal over a row over that his son's benefits. Has benefits
:58:29. > :58:33.were stopped before he died last year because he had spent more than
:58:34. > :58:37.12 weeks in hospital. Nothing can change the fact that your child is
:58:38. > :58:42.ill and in hospital and Michu by his side. Paul Brandt stepped down for
:58:43. > :58:46.personal reasons after more than 20 gears and the council.
:58:47. > :58:50.Veterans of the Royal Richard Fusiliers, many from this region,
:58:51. > :58:57.marched on Parliament to protest against plans to scrap their second
:58:58. > :59:02.Battalion. John, HS2, never far away from the
:59:03. > :59:09.agenda, your leader Nick Clegg said you're not supporting high`speed
:59:10. > :59:16.rail, is a betrayal of the North? We need it for capacity reasons but a
:59:17. > :59:19.lot at Westminster believe high`speed rail does not solve the
:59:20. > :59:24.problems between the North West and London. Getting to London is
:59:25. > :59:28.relatively easy, it is cross region transport. It takes longer to get
:59:29. > :59:35.from Leeds to Liverpool than it does to London and that does not help
:59:36. > :59:39.create growth between the cities. Let us remind ourselves of the
:59:40. > :59:45.Labour Party's position. This was Barbara Keeley speaking to as last
:59:46. > :59:49.week. The Labour Party is rightly questioning the spiralling costs
:59:50. > :59:55.which have gone from 42 billion to 50 billion and Ed Balls said at his
:59:56. > :59:59.conference speech that there are no blank cheques for this project. Is
:00:00. > :00:08.the Labour Party moving away from HS2? That is not what Barbara said.
:00:09. > :00:14.It is clearly that it is necessary for costs to be kept under control.
:00:15. > :00:18.It might be easily to get to London at the moment by real but will that
:00:19. > :00:22.be the case in 20 years? With the rate we are growing and the number
:00:23. > :00:26.of people using the railways, we will run out of capacity and we will
:00:27. > :00:33.not have room for Manchester to London, Manchester to Leeds or even
:00:34. > :00:38.commuter services from Atherton Sangin mac but you need to get
:00:39. > :00:47.growth by being able to get from the likes of Liverpool two beats and
:00:48. > :00:49.creating growth that way. If we do not increase capacity through
:00:50. > :00:55.high`speed rail, our ability to connect will be diminished. Do you
:00:56. > :01:01.think that high`speed rail will be more beneficial to Manchester than
:01:02. > :01:06.it would be to the south and London? It is a win situation for both
:01:07. > :01:11.regions. 70% of the economic benefit from High Speed 2 will be outside
:01:12. > :01:17.London and the south`east, it will be the regions that benefit most.
:01:18. > :01:21.There are people all over the North West at the moment to find it
:01:22. > :01:29.difficult to get around the North West. Thank you both for joining us.
:01:30. > :01:31.I will have to stop the discussion there. Join us next week.
:01:32. > :01:35.down immigration, but not in any way which links in with this. Thank you
:01:36. > :01:44.to both of you for being my guests today.
:01:45. > :01:52.Are the Lib Dems like a wonky shopping trolley? Why is Nick Clegg
:01:53. > :01:58.kicking off over free schools? And what about Boris and George's love
:01:59. > :02:04.bombing of China? All questions for The Week Ahead. We are joined now by
:02:05. > :02:08.the former Home Office minister and Liberal Democrat MP Jeremy Browne.
:02:09. > :02:16.Jeremy Browne, let me ask you this key question - ??GAPNEXT who is in
:02:17. > :02:22.the ascendancy in your party, those who would fear to the left, or those
:02:23. > :02:26.who would fear to the centre? The point I was making in the interview
:02:27. > :02:37.that I gave to the times was that I want us to be unambiguously and on
:02:38. > :02:42.up genetically -- and unapologetically a Liberal party. I
:02:43. > :02:47.do not want us to be craving the approval of columnists like Polly
:02:48. > :02:51.Toynbee. I do not want us to be a pale imitation of the Labour Party.
:02:52. > :02:55.I think we should be proud and unambiguously a authentic Liberal
:02:56. > :03:00.party. That is my ambition for the party. If it is, as you put it,
:03:01. > :03:05.fearing to the left, then I think that is a mistake, I think we should
:03:06. > :03:11.be on the liberal centre ground But is it actually veering to the left,
:03:12. > :03:15.your party? I think there is a danger when a party, or any
:03:16. > :03:23.organisation, feels that it is in a difficult position, to look
:03:24. > :03:28.inwards, to look for reassuring familiar policy positions. I do not
:03:29. > :03:32.want us to be the party which looks inwards and speaks to the 9% of
:03:33. > :03:37.people who are minded to support us already. I want us to look outwards
:03:38. > :03:40.and speak to the 91% of the population, for whom I think we have
:03:41. > :03:43.got a good story to tell about the contribution we have made to getting
:03:44. > :03:49.the deficit down, cutting crime keeping interest rates low, and
:03:50. > :03:53.also, distinctive Liberal Democrat policies for example on income tax
:03:54. > :03:56.and pupil premiums. If we look like we are a party which is uneasy and
:03:57. > :04:01.ambivalent about our role in government, people will not give us
:04:02. > :04:04.credit for the successes of the government, and we will not be able
:04:05. > :04:08.to claim the authorship which we should be able to claim for our
:04:09. > :04:13.policies excesses in government I want us to be confident, outward
:04:14. > :04:18.looking, and authentically liberal. If we are that, people real sense
:04:19. > :04:22.that and they will respond positively. Does that not therefore
:04:23. > :04:27.make it rather strange that Nick Craig should choose to distance
:04:28. > :04:35.himself from the coalition's schools policy? Well, I support free
:04:36. > :04:43.schools, I think they are a liberal policy. Education is a fascinating
:04:44. > :04:46.area, so let's explore it a bit We have had two very significant and
:04:47. > :04:50.troubling reports in the last fortnight, one from Alan Milburn,
:04:51. > :04:53.saying that social mobility has stalled in this country, in other
:04:54. > :04:58.words, what your parents do is a reliable guide to how you will get
:04:59. > :05:00.on in life and the other saying that Britain lags behind our
:05:01. > :05:05.competitors, the other industrialised countries, in terms
:05:06. > :05:10.of the educational attainment of 15-year-olds. Both of those are
:05:11. > :05:12.worrying. We have a scandalous situation in this country where two
:05:13. > :05:19.thirds of children from disadvantaged backgrounds are
:05:20. > :05:26.failing to get five Grade A to Grade C. Some get none at all. If we were
:05:27. > :05:29.the world leaders in education, we could have an interesting
:05:30. > :05:33.conversation about how we are able to maintain that position, but we
:05:34. > :05:36.are not. Whether there are good things one less good things which
:05:37. > :05:40.have happened in our schools over the last 30-40 years, we really need
:05:41. > :05:44.to raise our game and stop letting young people down who need a good
:05:45. > :05:48.quality education in order to realise their full potential in
:05:49. > :05:55.life. It sounds like you do not share Mr Clegg's designations? I
:05:56. > :06:00.think there are two big dangers for us as a party. I do not think we
:06:01. > :06:04.should be instinctively statist and I do not think either we should be
:06:05. > :06:08.instinctively in favour of the status quo. I want us to have a
:06:09. > :06:13.restless, radical, energetic, liberal reforming instinct, which is
:06:14. > :06:17.about putting more power and responsible at the end opportunity
:06:18. > :06:21.in the hands of individual people. As I say, we look at the education
:06:22. > :06:24.system, of course there are good teachers and good outcomes in some
:06:25. > :06:29.schools and for some pupils, overall, our performance in this
:06:30. > :06:34.country is not good enough, so the status quo has not been a successful
:06:35. > :06:47.stop I am interested in how we can innovate. -- has not been a success.
:06:48. > :06:52.Are the Tories wooing you? Well I do not know if that is the right
:06:53. > :06:59.word, I have been reported, and I have set myself, that the
:07:00. > :07:03.Conservatives have, if you like made some advances or generous
:07:04. > :07:07.suggestions to me, but I am a liberal, and I am a Liberal
:07:08. > :07:10.Democrat. I have been a member of the Lib Dems since the party was
:07:11. > :07:15.founded, I joined when I was 18 years old. I have campaigned
:07:16. > :07:19.tirelessly for the Liberal Democrats for my entire adult life, so I am
:07:20. > :07:23.not about to go and join another political party. I would turn this
:07:24. > :07:30.on its head, let me put it like this, I think there are quite a few
:07:31. > :07:32.liberals in the other political parties, people like Alan Milburn,
:07:33. > :07:38.who wrote a report on social mobility, people like Nick Bowles in
:07:39. > :07:41.the Conservative Party. Our ambition, as Liberal Democrats,
:07:42. > :07:51.should be to attract liberals from other political parties, and no
:07:52. > :07:55.political party, to the Lib Dems. Just briefly, have you suggested
:07:56. > :08:01.that the Tories do not run a candidate against you in the next
:08:02. > :08:04.election? I have not suggested anything of the sort. The
:08:05. > :08:09.Conservatives have to make their own decisions about which candidates
:08:10. > :08:13.they select, and I will take on whoever is select it from each of
:08:14. > :08:25.the political parties. Thank you for joining us. There is a danger not
:08:26. > :08:31.from Jeremy Browne, but from Mr Clegg, in that, having been part of
:08:32. > :08:34.a coalition which has gone through an enormous squeeze in living
:08:35. > :08:38.standards for three years, it did not look like both was coming, it
:08:39. > :08:44.was being regarded overall as a failure, but now, it may be turning
:08:45. > :08:49.the corner, so why would you then start to disassociate yourself from
:08:50. > :08:53.the coalition's policies? Yes, the danger for Nick Clegg is that he
:08:54. > :08:57.makes the Liberal Democrats looked like visitors in a guesthouse, a
:08:58. > :09:01.guesthouse which is owned by the Conservatives. As you say, they were
:09:02. > :09:04.there for the three difficult years, and just at the moment when the
:09:05. > :09:08.economy seems to be coming right, and we are getting some nice growth,
:09:09. > :09:13.they seek to distance themselves. It is interesting that Jeremy Browne
:09:14. > :09:18.came out with the outrageously disloyal statement that he supported
:09:19. > :09:21.free schools statement. That is a disloyal Liberal Democrat view, but
:09:22. > :09:25.on Thursday, of course, the Liberal Democrat party was in favour of free
:09:26. > :09:29.schools, because in that statement about the Al-Madinah school, David
:09:30. > :09:32.Laws made a passionate defence about what Nick Clegg is now criticising,
:09:33. > :09:41.which is having on qualified teachers. If things are now coming
:09:42. > :09:46.right, the big risk for the Liberal Democrats always was that they would
:09:47. > :09:49.not get the credit anyway. Well if they diss associate themselves like
:09:50. > :09:55.this, they definitely will not get the credit. It depends which voters
:09:56. > :10:00.their opinion poll ratings are dire, he spoke about 9%, and sometimes it
:10:01. > :10:04.is less than that. So, where are they going to get those voters
:10:05. > :10:10.from? They have not got those anti-Iraq war voters. Is it not
:10:11. > :10:14.Mission impossible, getting Labour voters test surely the left of the
:10:15. > :10:21.Lib Dem vote is peeling off towards labour, not away from Labour? I
:10:22. > :10:27.wonder to what extent, and this might be speculation, this might be
:10:28. > :10:31.organised and arranged, that Cameron and Clegg both understand that they
:10:32. > :10:35.have groups of voters that they need to get, so they need to send
:10:36. > :10:43.messages out to different groups, it looks like a bit of a setup to me.
:10:44. > :10:52.Boris in China, along with boy George - let's have a look... Who,
:10:53. > :10:58.according to JK Rowling, was Harry Potter's first girlfriend? That s
:10:59. > :11:06.right, and she is Chinese overseas student, is that not right at
:11:07. > :11:10.Hogwarts? Actually, we are not sure it is right, she is actually from
:11:11. > :11:16.Scotland. It is not only London which has a diverse society. Putting
:11:17. > :11:20.that to one side, we are inviting the Chinese into finance our power
:11:21. > :11:25.stations, to run big banks in the cities, we are giving out more visas
:11:26. > :11:29.to them, are we right to embrace the Dragon? What worries me about the
:11:30. > :11:35.power stations then, it is 30% of investment, and it reminds me a lot
:11:36. > :11:38.of PFI, the idea that you do not want a huge investment on your
:11:39. > :11:45.balance sheet, but if somebody bails out halfway through, we cannot stop
:11:46. > :11:49.with a half finished power station. It is EDF, the French company, which
:11:50. > :11:56.will actually build it, and we will be guaranteeing the debt for them.
:11:57. > :12:00.It is extraordinary that there has been so little adverse comment after
:12:01. > :12:05.George Osborne and Boris's trip to China, and is it now really the UK
:12:06. > :12:14.Government policy, to sell Britain to the Chinese? There was a debate
:12:15. > :12:19.in government about this, as they were getting ready for the trip and
:12:20. > :12:22.there will be at some point in the next six months be a David Cameron
:12:23. > :12:25.trip to China. He has had to wait three years because they were
:12:26. > :12:29.annoyed about him meeting the Dalai llama. There were some people in the
:12:30. > :12:34.Foreign Office who were saying, fine, but tread carefully. George
:12:35. > :12:41.Osborne's view is absolutely not, get in there, I do not care about
:12:42. > :12:47.any of these problems, get stuck in. I think he is storing up five
:12:48. > :12:51.years since the financial crisis, Chinese banks are being given a
:12:52. > :13:02.special, light touch regulatory regime. What could possibly go
:13:03. > :13:08.wrong?! There is lots to see. Energy prices have continued to dominate
:13:09. > :13:11.this week. We have got the EDF deal, whereby we are going to be giving
:13:12. > :13:19.them twice the market rate for their energy. But for the coalition, all
:13:20. > :13:23.eyes are on the GDP figures. The expectation and hope is that the
:13:24. > :13:30.recovery will be stronger than the figures have suggested so far, on
:13:31. > :13:35.which basis it can influence the result of the next general
:13:36. > :13:38.election. The chief economist at the Bank of England was saying on
:13:39. > :13:42.Twitter last week that the Bank of England may now bring forward the
:13:43. > :13:45.assessment when it says, maybe we are going to have to change monetary
:13:46. > :13:55.policy, if unemployment goes below 7%. And we know what that means
:13:56. > :14:00.interest rates. The Bank of England on Twitter! That is it for today.
:14:01. > :14:03.The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two. I will be back with
:14:04. > :14:07.prime Minster 's questions on Wednesday, and of course, we will be
:14:08. > :14:14.back at 11 o'clock on BBC One next Sunday.