:00:36. > :00:42.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Ed Miliband's on
:00:43. > :00:47.the war path over pay day loans your energy bill and what he calls
:00:48. > :00:51.the bedroom tax. His spinners say he's resurgent though the polls
:00:52. > :00:55.don't show it. We'll be talking to his right hand woman, Labour's
:00:56. > :00:59.Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman. From resurgent to insurgent. Nigel Farage
:01:00. > :01:08.won an award this week for being a political insurgent. We'll be
:01:09. > :01:11.talking to the UKIP leader. And Harriet hates, hates, hates page
:01:12. > :01:21.three. She wants rid of it. But what do you think? We sent Adam out with
:01:22. > :01:28.some balls. Stay. It is good fun for the
:01:29. > :01:32.In the north`west, one year into the job, how well do you know your
:01:33. > :01:44.police It is free choice. In London, the
:01:45. > :01:47.row over the super sewer rumbles on. And with me, fresh from their
:01:48. > :01:53.success at yesterday's Star Wars auditions, Darth Vader. Obi Wan
:01:54. > :01:58.Kenobi and R2D2. Congratulations on your new jobs. We'll miss you. Nick
:01:59. > :02:01.Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. First, the talks with Iran in
:02:02. > :02:12.Geneva. They ended last night without agreement despite hopes of a
:02:13. > :02:15.breakthrough. America and its allies didn't think Iran was prepared to go
:02:16. > :02:18.far enough to freeze its nuclear programme. But some progress has
:02:19. > :02:21.been made and there's to be another meeting in ten days' time, though at
:02:22. > :02:24.a lower level. The Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had this
:02:25. > :02:29.to say a little earlier. On the question of, or will it happen in
:02:30. > :02:37.the next few weeks? There is a good chance of that. We will be trying
:02:38. > :02:45.again on 20th, 21st of November and negotiators will be trying again. We
:02:46. > :02:49.will keep an enormous amount of energy and persistence behind
:02:50. > :02:56.solving this. Will that be a deal which will please everyone? No, it
:02:57. > :03:01.will not. Compromises will need to be made. I had discussions with
:03:02. > :03:04.Israeli ministers yesterday and put the case for the kind of deal we are
:03:05. > :03:09.looking the case for the kind of deal we are
:03:10. > :03:15.interests of the whole world, including
:03:16. > :03:16.interests of the whole world, the world, to reach a diplomatic
:03:17. > :03:23.agreement we can be confident in in this issue. This otherwise will
:03:24. > :03:27.threaten the world with nuclear proliferation and conflict in the
:03:28. > :03:31.future. The interesting thing about this is that it seems
:03:32. > :03:37.future. The interesting thing about prepared to go far enough over the
:03:38. > :03:50.Iraq heavy water plutonium reactor it is building. The people who took
:03:51. > :03:57.the toughest line - the French. France has always had a pretty tough
:03:58. > :04:01.line on Iran. They see it as a disruptive influence in Lebanon I
:04:02. > :04:06.am reasonably optimistic a deal will be done later this month when the
:04:07. > :04:11.talks reconvene. Western economic sanctions have had such an impact on
:04:12. > :04:20.Iran domestic league. They have pushed inflation up to 40%.
:04:21. > :04:27.Dashes-macro domestically. The new president had a campaign pledge
:04:28. > :04:32.saying, I will deal with sanctions. I actually think, by the end of this
:04:33. > :04:40.year, we will see progress in these talks. Should we be optimistic? The
:04:41. > :04:46.next round of talks will be at official level. The place to watch
:04:47. > :04:51.will be Israel. The language which has been coming out of there is
:04:52. > :05:01.still incredibly angry, incredibly defensive. They do not want a deal
:05:02. > :05:06.at all. Presumably John Kerry has to go away and tried to get Israel to
:05:07. > :05:17.be quiet about it, even if they cannot be happy about it. They
:05:18. > :05:25.cannot agree to a deal which allows the Iraq reactor with plutonium
:05:26. > :05:32.heavy water. You do not need that with a peaceful nuclear power
:05:33. > :05:38.programme will stop that is why the Israelis are so nervous. If there is
:05:39. > :05:45.an international deal, Israel could still bomb that but it would be
:05:46. > :05:51.impossible. The French tactics are interesting. It says the French
:05:52. > :05:57.blocked it in part because they are trying to carry favour with Israel
:05:58. > :06:02.but also the Gulf Arab states, who are really nervous about and
:06:03. > :06:06.Iranians nuclear capability. Who is that? Saudi Arabia. Newsnight had a
:06:07. > :06:17.story saying that Pakistan is prepared to provide them with
:06:18. > :06:23.nuclear weapons. You are right about Saudi Arabia. They are much more
:06:24. > :06:26.against this deal than Israel. Who is Herman van Rompuy's favourite
:06:27. > :06:31.MEP? It is probably not Nigel Farage. He plummeted to the bottom
:06:32. > :06:34.of the EU president's Christmas card list after comparing him to a bank
:06:35. > :06:43.clerk with the charisma of a damp rag. And he's been at it again this
:06:44. > :06:47.week. Have a look. Today is November the 5th, a big celebration festival
:06:48. > :06:52.day in England. That was an attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament
:06:53. > :06:57.with dynamite and destroy the Constitution. You have taken the
:06:58. > :07:03.Dahl, technocratic approach to all of these things. What you and your
:07:04. > :07:07.colleagues save time and again you talk about initiatives and what you
:07:08. > :07:13.are going to do about unemployment. The reality is nothing in this union
:07:14. > :07:18.is getting better. The accounts have not been signed off for 18 years. I
:07:19. > :07:23.am now told it is 19 and you are doing your best to tone down any
:07:24. > :07:27.criticism. Whatever growth figures you may have, they are anaemic.
:07:28. > :07:34.Youth unemployment in the Mediterranean is over 50% in several
:07:35. > :07:37.states. You will notice there is a rise in opposition dashed real
:07:38. > :07:42.opposition. Much of it ugly opposition, not stuff that I would
:07:43. > :07:51.want to link hands with. And Nigel Farage joins me now. Let me put to
:07:52. > :07:58.you what the editor of the Sun had to say. He says, UKIP will peak at
:07:59. > :08:02.the European election and then it will begin to get marginalised as we
:08:03. > :08:07.get closer to 2015 because there is now that clear blue water between
:08:08. > :08:14.Labour and the Tories. What do you say to that? There may be layered
:08:15. > :08:20.blue water on energy pricing but on Eastern Europe, there is no
:08:21. > :08:23.difference at all. When Ed Miliband offers the referendum to match
:08:24. > :08:29.Cameron, even that argument on Europe will be gone. The one thing
:08:30. > :08:34.that will keep UKIP strong, heading towards 2015, is if people think in
:08:35. > :08:38.some constituencies we can win. I cannot sit here right now and say
:08:39. > :08:42.that will be the case. If we get over the hurdle of the European
:08:43. > :08:50.elections clearly, I think there will be grounds to say that UKIP can
:08:51. > :08:54.win seats in Westminster. You are going to run? Without a shadow of a
:08:55. > :09:00.doubt. I do not know which constituency. The welcome I got in
:09:01. > :09:05.Edinburgh was not that friendly Edinburgh is not everything in
:09:06. > :09:10.Scotland. I think we have a realistic chance of winning those
:09:11. > :09:16.elections. If we do that, we will have the momentum behind us. You
:09:17. > :09:19.might be the biggest party after the May elections. The National front is
:09:20. > :09:26.likely to do very well in France as well. They have won the crucial
:09:27. > :09:33.by-election in the South of France. Have you talked about joining full
:09:34. > :09:40.season in Parliament? The leader has tried to take the movement into a
:09:41. > :09:46.different direction than her father. The man she beat, to become leader,
:09:47. > :09:52.actually attended the BNP conference. The problem she has with
:09:53. > :09:56.her party and we have with her party is that anti-Semitism is too deep
:09:57. > :10:02.and we will not be doing a deal with the French national government. You
:10:03. > :10:10.can guarantee you will not be joining such groups. I can guarantee
:10:11. > :10:13.that. Let's move on to Europe. Let's accept that the pro-Europeans
:10:14. > :10:21.exaggerate the loss of jobs that would follow the departure of
:10:22. > :10:29.Britain from the UK. Is there no risk of jobs whatsoever? No risk
:10:30. > :10:37.whatsoever. There is no risk at all. There have been some weak and lazy
:10:38. > :10:44.arguments put around about this We will go on doing business - go on
:10:45. > :10:47.doing trade with Europe. We will have increased opportunities to do
:10:48. > :10:57.trade deals with the rest of the world and they will create jobs The
:10:58. > :11:02.head of Nissan, the head of Hitachi and CBI many other voices in British
:11:03. > :11:07.business, when they all expressed concern about the potential loss of
:11:08. > :11:16.jobs and incoming investment, we should just ignore them. With
:11:17. > :11:24.Nissan, the BBC News is making this a huge story. The boss did not say
:11:25. > :11:30.what was reported. He said there was a potential danger to his future
:11:31. > :11:35.investment. They have already made the investments. They have built the
:11:36. > :11:39.plant in Sunderland, which they say is operating well. We should be
:11:40. > :11:43.careful of what bosses of big businesses say. This man said they
:11:44. > :11:49.may have two leaves Sunderland if we did not join the euro. I do not take
:11:50. > :11:55.that seriously. As for the CBI, they wanted us to join the euro and now
:11:56. > :11:59.they do not. Even within the CBI, there is a significant minority
:12:00. > :12:03.saying, we do not agree with what the CBI director-general is saying.
:12:04. > :12:09.The former boss of the organisation is saying we need a referendum and
:12:10. > :12:14.we need a referendum soon. It depends on the renegotiation. There
:12:15. > :12:18.is not the uniformity. What we are beginning to see in the world, is,
:12:19. > :12:24.manufacturing and small businesses are a lot more voices saying, the
:12:25. > :12:32.costs of membership outweigh any potential benefit. If you look at
:12:33. > :12:40.the polls, if Mr Cameron does repatriate some powers and he joins
:12:41. > :12:44.with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Nationalists in Scotland and Wales,
:12:45. > :12:53.most of business, all of the unions to say we should stay in, you are
:12:54. > :12:58.going to lose, aren't you? In 1 75, the circumstances were exactly the
:12:59. > :13:01.same. Mr Wilson promised a renegotiation and he got very
:13:02. > :13:05.little. The establishment gathered around him and they voted for us to
:13:06. > :13:13.stay in. I do not think that will happen now. The scales have fallen.
:13:14. > :13:17.We do not want to be governed by Herman Van Rompuy and these people.
:13:18. > :13:21.These people are Eurosceptic but they do not seem to feel strongly
:13:22. > :13:25.enough about it that they are going to defy all the major parties they
:13:26. > :13:32.vote for, companies that employ them, unions they are members of. I
:13:33. > :13:36.am absolutely confident there will be a lot voices in business saying,
:13:37. > :13:46.we need to take this opportunity to break free, give ourselves a chance
:13:47. > :14:06.of a low regulation lowball trader. -- global trade. In 1970 53 small
:14:07. > :14:09.publications said to vote yes. I am not contemplating losing. The most
:14:10. > :14:16.important thing is to get the referendum. If UKIP is not strong,
:14:17. > :14:20.there will not be a referendum. Earlier in the year, your party
:14:21. > :14:27.issued a leaflet about the remaining sample parents being able to come to
:14:28. > :14:29.this country. The EU will allow 29 million Bulgarians and remaining is
:14:30. > :14:43.to come to the UK. That is technically correct but we both know
:14:44. > :14:54.that is not the case. It is an open door to these people. Why take the
:14:55. > :15:05.risk? By make out there are 29 million people? I stand by that
:15:06. > :15:14.verdict. It is an open door. 29 million are not going to come. They
:15:15. > :15:19.can if they want. Also 29 million people from France can come. After
:15:20. > :15:24.these countries have joined, we will do another leaflet saying that Mr
:15:25. > :15:34.Cameron wants to open the door to 70 million people from Turkey. That is
:15:35. > :15:39.scaremongering. I would not say that. We have a million young
:15:40. > :15:43.British workers between 16 and 4 without work. A lot of them want
:15:44. > :15:48.work and we do not need another massive oversupply in the unskilled
:15:49. > :15:56.labour market. Why did you have such a bad time on question Time this
:15:57. > :16:02.week? The folk that did not buy your anti-immigration stick. Do you think
:16:03. > :16:07.that group of people in the room was representative of the voters of
:16:08. > :16:09.Boston? What would make you think it was unrepresentative? When the
:16:10. > :16:14.county council elections took place this year in Boston, of the seven
:16:15. > :16:18.seats, UKIP won five and almost won the other two. I don't think that
:16:19. > :16:22.audience reflected that, but that doesn't matter. How an audience is
:16:23. > :16:27.put together, how a panel is put together, on one programme, it
:16:28. > :16:30.doesn't mean much at all. It shows that your anti-immigrant measure
:16:31. > :16:35.doesn't fly as easily as you hoped it would? The opinion polls which
:16:36. > :16:39.will be launched on Monday that we are conducting and nearing
:16:40. > :16:43.completion, they show two things. Firstly, an astonishing number of
:16:44. > :16:48.people who think it's irresponsible and wrong to open the doer to
:16:49. > :16:52.Romania and Bulgaria, secondly and crucially, a number of people whose
:16:53. > :16:54.vote in the European elections and subsequent general elections may be
:16:55. > :16:57.determined by the immigration issues. This does matter. It would
:16:58. > :17:02.be the perfect run group the European elections in May for you if
:17:03. > :17:05.a lot of Bulgarians and remainians flooded in. You would like that to
:17:06. > :17:10.happen? I think it will happen. Whether I like it or not, it will
:17:11. > :17:14.happen. You think it will be good for you, it will stir things up If
:17:15. > :17:19.you say to people in poor countries, you can come here, get a job, have a
:17:20. > :17:23.safety net of a benefits system claim child allowance for your kids
:17:24. > :17:28.in Bucharest, people will come You are ready with the arguments
:17:29. > :17:32.already? You will be disappointed if only ten turn up? Whether lots come
:17:33. > :17:35.or not we should. Taking the risk and yes, we are going to make it a
:17:36. > :17:38.major issue in the European election. Let's leave it there.
:17:39. > :17:43.Thank you very much, Nigel Farage. The summer of 2013 was not good for
:17:44. > :17:46.Ed Miliband, with questions over his leadership, low ratings and
:17:47. > :17:49.complaints about no policies. He bounced back with a vengeance at the
:17:50. > :17:54.Labour Conference in September, delivering a speech which this week
:17:55. > :17:57.won the spectator political speech of the year aword. In that speech he
:17:58. > :18:02.focussed on the cost-of-living and promised a temporary freeze on
:18:03. > :18:10.energy prices. Even said this. The next election isn't just going to be
:18:11. > :18:14.about policy. It's going to be about how we lead and the character we
:18:15. > :18:22.show. I've got a message for the Tories today. If they want to have a
:18:23. > :18:28.debate, about leadership and character, be my guest And if you
:18:29. > :18:33.want to know the difference between me and David Cameron, here is an
:18:34. > :18:38.easy way to remember it. When it was Murdoch v the McCanns, he took the
:18:39. > :18:43.side of Murdoch. When it was the tobacco lobby versus the cancer
:18:44. > :18:48.charities, he took the side of the tobacco lobby. When the millionaires
:18:49. > :18:52.wanted a tax cut as people pay the bedroom tax, he took the side of the
:18:53. > :18:55.millionaires. A come to think of it, here is an easier way to remember
:18:56. > :18:59.it. David Cameron was a Prime Minister who introduced the bedroom
:19:00. > :19:08.tax. I'll be the Prime Minister who repeals the bedroom tax There we go,
:19:09. > :19:15.that will go down with the party faithful on Tuesday. There will be a
:19:16. > :19:20.debate on the bedroom tax. Labour's Deputy Leader, Harriet Harman,
:19:21. > :19:28.joints me now. Let's begin with the bedroom tax or bedroom subsidy.
:19:29. > :19:33.Nearly 11% of people who've come off Housing Benefits all together after
:19:34. > :19:37.their spare room subsidy was stopped, isn't that proof that
:19:38. > :19:41.reform was necessary? No. I think that the whole way that the bet room
:19:42. > :19:45.tax has been attempted to be justified is completely wrong. What
:19:46. > :19:49.it's said is that it will actually help take people off the waiting
:19:50. > :19:55.lists by putting them into homes that have been vacated by people
:19:56. > :19:58.who've downsized by being incentivised by the bedroom tax so
:19:59. > :20:02.basically if you are a council tenant or Housing Association tenant
:20:03. > :20:06.in a property with spare bedrooms, then because the penalty is imposed,
:20:07. > :20:10.you will move to a smaller property. That is the justification for it.
:20:11. > :20:14.But actually, something like 96 of the people who're going to be hit by
:20:15. > :20:17.the bedroom tax, there isn't a smaller property for them to move
:20:18. > :20:21.into. I understand that. Therefore they are, like the people in my
:20:22. > :20:27.constituency, if they have got one spare bedroom, they are hit by 700
:20:28. > :20:32.a year extra to pay and that is completely unfair As a consequence
:20:33. > :20:36.of people losing the subsidy for their spare room, they have decided
:20:37. > :20:40.to go out and get work and not depend on Housing Benefit at all?
:20:41. > :20:46.11% of them. What's wrong with that? Well, they are going to review the
:20:47. > :20:50.way 2 the bedroom tax is working. What is wrong with that? But that's
:20:51. > :20:55.not working. That's the result of Freedom of Information, 141 councils
:20:56. > :20:59.provided the figures, 25,000 who've come off benefits, of the 233,0 0
:21:00. > :21:03.affected, it's about 11%. These people were clearly able to get a
:21:04. > :21:07.job was having the Housing Benefit in the first place? But of course
:21:08. > :21:11.the people who're on the benefits who're not in work are always
:21:12. > :21:15.looking for work and many of them will find work which is a good
:21:16. > :21:19.thing, but for those who don't find work, or who find work where it s
:21:20. > :21:24.low-paid and need help with their rent, it's wrong to penalise them on
:21:25. > :21:28.the basis of the fact that their family might have grown up and moved
:21:29. > :21:31.away and so you have either got to move out of your home, away from
:21:32. > :21:36.your family and your neighbourhood, or you've got to stay where you are
:21:37. > :21:40.and, despite the fact that you are low-paid or unemployed, you have got
:21:41. > :21:45.to find an extra ?700 a year because of your rent. So it's very unfair
:21:46. > :21:48.The Government that was commissioning independent research
:21:49. > :21:52.on the impact of this work change and welfare policy, particularly on
:21:53. > :21:55.the impact on the most vulnerable, some of which you have been talking
:21:56. > :21:59.about there, shouldn't they have waited until you have got the
:22:00. > :22:01.independent research, that independent investigation before
:22:02. > :22:06.determining your policy? No. In fact, the Government should have
:22:07. > :22:09.waited until they'd have done their independent research before they
:22:10. > :22:15.bought into effect something and imposed it on people in a way which
:22:16. > :22:20.is really unfair. They could have known. Why didn't you wait? What
:22:21. > :22:23.they could have done is, they could have asked councils, are people
:22:24. > :22:27.going to be able to Manifest into smaller homes if we impose the
:22:28. > :22:31.bedroom tax and the answer from councils and Housing Associations
:22:32. > :22:34.would have been no, they can't move into smaller homes because which
:22:35. > :22:38.haven't got them there. They should have done the evaluation before they
:22:39. > :22:42.introduced the policy. We are absolutely clear and you can see the
:22:43. > :22:45.evidence, people are falling into rent arrears. Many people, it's a
:22:46. > :22:49.terrifying thing to find that you can't pay your rent, and some of the
:22:50. > :22:54.people go to payday loan companies to get loans to pay their rent. It
:22:55. > :22:58.is very, very unfair. The justification for it, which is
:22:59. > :23:04.people will move, is completely bogus. There aren't places for them
:23:05. > :23:08.to go. On the wider issue of welfare reform, a call for the TUC showed
:23:09. > :23:11.that voters support the Government's welfare reforms, including a
:23:12. > :23:15.majority of Labour voters. Why are you so out of touch on welfare
:23:16. > :23:19.issues, even with your own supporters? Nobody wants to see
:23:20. > :23:23.people who could be in a job actually living at the taxpayers'
:23:24. > :23:27.expense. That's why we have said that we'll introduce a compulsory
:23:28. > :23:31.jobs guarantee, so that if you are a young person who's been unemployed
:23:32. > :23:35.for a year, you will have to take a job absolutely have to take a job,
:23:36. > :23:39.and if you have been unemployed as somebody over 25, there'll be a
:23:40. > :23:44.compulsory thing after two years of unemployment. So if you have been on
:23:45. > :23:48.welfare two years? So the main issue about the welfare bill actually is
:23:49. > :23:51.people who're in retirement who need support. We have said for the
:23:52. > :23:56.richest pensioners, they shouldn't have to pay their winter fuel
:23:57. > :24:01.allowance. My point wasn't abouts the sub stance, it's about how you
:24:02. > :24:05.don't reflect public opinion -- substance. The Parliamentary aid
:24:06. > :24:10.said the political backlog of benefits and social security is "not
:24:11. > :24:16.yet one that we have won. Labour must accept that they are not
:24:17. > :24:19.convincing on these matters,". Well, redo have to convince people and
:24:20. > :24:24.explain the policies we have got and the view we take. So, for example,
:24:25. > :24:27.for pensioners, who're well off we are saying they don't need the
:24:28. > :24:30.Winter Fuel Payment that. 's me saying to you and us saying to
:24:31. > :24:35.people in this country, we do think that there should be that
:24:36. > :24:38.tightening. For young people, who've been unemployed, they should be
:24:39. > :24:44.offered jobs but they've got to take them. So yes, we have to make our
:24:45. > :24:48.case. OK. The energy freeze which we showed there, on the speech, as
:24:49. > :24:52.popular. The living wage proseles have been going down well as well.
:24:53. > :24:57.Why is Labour's lead oaf the Conservatives being cut to 6% in the
:24:58. > :25:01.latest polls? Ed Miliband's own personal approval rating's gotten
:25:02. > :25:05.worse. Why is that? I'm not going to disdues ins and outs of weekly
:25:06. > :25:09.opinion polls with you or anybody else because I'm not a political
:25:10. > :25:13.commentator, but let me say to you the facts of what's happened since
:25:14. > :25:20.Ed Miliband's been leader of the Labour Party. We have got 1,950 New
:25:21. > :25:23.Labour councillors, all of those... But you're... All those who've won
:25:24. > :25:26.their seats against the Conservatives or the Liberal
:25:27. > :25:31.Democrats and no, Andrew you don't always get that in opposition. In
:25:32. > :25:37.1997 after Tony Blair was elected, the Tories carried on losing council
:25:38. > :25:42.seats. Exceptional circumstances and these days Mr Blair was 25% ahead in
:25:43. > :25:48.the polls. You were six. The economy grew at an annual rate of 3% in the
:25:49. > :25:51.third quarter just gone. Everybody, private and public forecasters now
:25:52. > :25:56.saying that Britain in this coming year will grow faster than France,
:25:57. > :25:59.Italy, Spain, even Germany will grow faster. Your poll ratings are
:26:00. > :26:03.average when the economy was flatlining, what happens to them
:26:04. > :26:08.when the economy starts to grow Well, I've just said to you, I'm not
:26:09. > :26:12.a political commentator or a pundit on opinion polls. We are putting
:26:13. > :26:15.policies forward and we are holding the Government to account for what
:26:16. > :26:20.they are doing and we think that what they did opt economy pulled the
:26:21. > :26:24.plugs from the economy, delayed the recovery, made it stagnate and we
:26:25. > :26:29.have had three years lost growth. I understand that, but it's now
:26:30. > :26:33.starting to grow. Indeed. If you are no political commentator, let me ask
:26:34. > :26:37.you this, you anticipated the growth, so you switched your line to
:26:38. > :26:42.no growth to this is growth and living standards are rising. If the
:26:43. > :26:44.economy does grow up towards 3% next year, I would suggest that living
:26:45. > :26:48.standards probably will start to rise with that amount of growth
:26:49. > :26:51.What do you do then? We have not switched our line because the
:26:52. > :26:55.economy started to grow. All the way along, we said the economy will
:26:56. > :26:59.recover, but it's been delayed and we have had stagnation for far too
:27:00. > :27:04.long because of the economic policies. We have been absolutely
:27:05. > :27:07.right to understand the concerns people have and recognise that they
:27:08. > :27:12.are struggling with the cost-of-living. Sure. And we are
:27:13. > :27:17.right to do that. What kind of living standards stuck to rise next
:27:18. > :27:21.year? -- start to rise next year. I hope they will. For 40 months of
:27:22. > :27:26.David Cameron's Prime Ministership, for 39 of those, wages have risen
:27:27. > :27:30.slower than prices, so people are worse off. I understand that. You
:27:31. > :27:34.will know that the broader measurement, real household
:27:35. > :27:37.disposable income doesn't show that decline because it takes everything
:27:38. > :27:43.into account. Going around the country, people feel it. They say
:27:44. > :27:48.where's the recovery for me. Living standards now start to rise? If that
:27:49. > :27:52.happens, what is your next line There is a set of arguments about
:27:53. > :27:57.living standards, the National Health Service, about the problems
:27:58. > :28:01.that there is in A, which caused -- are caused by the organisation. I
:28:02. > :28:06.can put forward other lines. All right. Let me ask you one other
:28:07. > :28:11.question If no newspapers have signed up to the Government-backed
:28:12. > :28:16.Labour-backed Royal Charter on press regular lace by 2015 and it looks
:28:17. > :28:21.like the way things are going none will have, if you are in power, will
:28:22. > :28:24.a Labour Government legislate to make them? They don't have to sign
:28:25. > :28:29.up to the Royal Charter, that's not the system. What the Royal Charter
:28:30. > :28:32.does is create a recogniser and basically says it's for the
:28:33. > :28:37.newspapers to set up their own regulator. They are doing that. My
:28:38. > :28:39.question is... Let me finish. If they decide to have nothing to do
:28:40. > :28:44.with the Royal Charter that was decided in Miliband's office in the
:28:45. > :28:47.wee small hours, will you pass legislation to make them? The
:28:48. > :28:51.newspapers are currently setting up what they call... I know that,
:28:52. > :28:56.Harriet Harman. Just let me finish. OK. Because the newspapers are
:28:57. > :29:00.setting up the independent Press Standards Organisation. Right. If it
:29:01. > :29:05.is independent, as they say it is, then the recogniser will simply say,
:29:06. > :29:08.we recognise that this is independent and the whole point is
:29:09. > :29:12.that, in the past when there's been skaen deals a tend press have really
:29:13. > :29:17.turned people's lives upside down and the press have said OK we'll
:29:18. > :29:20.sort things out, leave it to us then they have sorted things out but
:29:21. > :29:25.a few years later they have slipped back, all this recogniser will do is
:29:26. > :29:28.check it once every three years and say yes, you have got an independent
:29:29. > :29:31.system and it's remained independent and therefore that is the guarantee
:29:32. > :29:35.things won't slip back. Very interesting. Thank you for that
:29:36. > :29:39.That's really interesting that if they get their act right, you won't
:29:40. > :29:47.force the alternative on them. We want the system as set forward by
:29:48. > :29:50.Leveson which is not statute and direct regulation. I want to stick
:29:51. > :29:54.with the press because I want to ask, is this a British institution
:29:55. > :29:58.or an out-of-date image for a by gone age. The Sun's Page 3 has been
:29:59. > :30:04.dividing the nation since it first appeared way back in 1970. That s 43
:30:05. > :30:09.years ago. Harriet Harman's called for it to be removed, so we sent
:30:10. > :30:26.Adam out to ask whether the topless photographs should stay or go. We
:30:27. > :30:40.have asked people if page three should stay or go. Page three. What
:30:41. > :30:48.do you think? Nothing wrong with it at all. I think it is cheap and
:30:49. > :31:00.exploits women. It is a family newspaper. Should it stay or go Go.
:31:01. > :31:14.I will look like the bad guy. It should go. You have changed your
:31:15. > :31:20.mind. It is free choice. Girls do not have to be photographed. Old men
:31:21. > :31:34.get the paper just for that. Know when your age does that? Not really.
:31:35. > :31:42.Dashes-macro know what your age Page three girls, should they stay
:31:43. > :31:48.or go? I am not bothered. There are other ways of getting noticed. Page
:31:49. > :31:55.three of the Sun newspaper every day, there is a woman with no top
:31:56. > :32:01.on. We got rid of that about 40 years ago in Australia. I am not in
:32:02. > :32:11.favour of censorship. It has been long enough. It can stay there. What
:32:12. > :32:14.is wrong with it? We want to encourage children to read the
:32:15. > :32:19.newspapers. I do not want my children to look at that. It is
:32:20. > :32:28.degrading. Do you think we will see the day when they get rid of it
:32:29. > :32:42.Yes, I do. I am wondering if I can turn this into some kind of a
:32:43. > :32:47.shelter. It is tipping it down. I think the council should do
:32:48. > :32:56.something about their car parks Mother nature, the human body. It
:32:57. > :33:02.should stay. Is some people like it, that is fine. I have nothing against
:33:03. > :33:07.it. You know what has surprised me, lots of women saying it should stay.
:33:08. > :33:14.Maybe they are seeing it as empowering. As I have a baby
:33:15. > :33:25.daughter in there, I am happy to see it go. Imagine my grandad opening up
:33:26. > :33:35.his paper and they're being my bats! It should go. There is nothing wrong
:33:36. > :33:42.with it. He wants it to go. What about people who think that page
:33:43. > :33:52.three should be banned? Idiots. Do you know a girl called Lacey, aged
:33:53. > :33:58.22, from Bedford? Good luck to her. I do not know her as a person that I
:33:59. > :34:05.have heard she is nice. What about her decision to be on page three?
:34:06. > :34:14.Nothing to lose. Do you think she has made Bedford proud? That is not
:34:15. > :34:23.hard. What have we learned? More people want page three to stay down
:34:24. > :34:29.for it to go. Most people do not really seem to care, do they? You
:34:30. > :34:35.have heard a range of views. I am not arguing it should be banned I
:34:36. > :34:41.have not argued for it to be banned but I have disapproved of it since
:34:42. > :34:52.the 1970s. You do not think it should be banned? I do not think
:34:53. > :34:58.there should be dictating content but I do think, if you arrive from
:34:59. > :35:01.outer space in this country in 21st-century Britain, and asked
:35:02. > :35:06.yourself what was the role of women in society... To stand in their
:35:07. > :35:11.knickers and nothing else, I think women have more to aspire to than to
:35:12. > :35:21.be able to take their clothes off in public. The sun no longer has the
:35:22. > :35:25.circulation, or the political importance, that it had in the 980s
:35:26. > :35:31.when page three was at its height. Aren't people just voting with their
:35:32. > :35:37.feet anyway? The market is sorting this out. Half the number of people
:35:38. > :35:43.buy it now than they did 20 years ago. Until the time the sun does not
:35:44. > :35:50.have page three any more, I am entitled to my view that it is
:35:51. > :35:59.outdated and wrong. I am happy to establish that you do not want to
:36:00. > :36:04.ban it. What should happen? Should people boycott the paper? I have
:36:05. > :36:10.never implied or said it should be banned. I have always been
:36:11. > :36:15.forthright. Should people boycott the paper? I have not called for a
:36:16. > :36:21.boycott. The women's movement, of which I am part, and this is not
:36:22. > :36:26.about politicians censoring the press. I am part of the movement
:36:27. > :36:33.which says women can do better than taking off their clothes and being
:36:34. > :36:39.in their knickers in the newspapers. Why don't you do something about it?
:36:40. > :36:47.I am doing something about it by saying it is outdated. I am not
:36:48. > :36:53.doing anything more about it. Should people buy the paper as long as
:36:54. > :36:56.there is a page three? Would you like to say to viewers, as long as
:36:57. > :37:06.page three is in the sand, you should not buy it? Dashes-macro be
:37:07. > :37:10.Son. I am saying, wake up to what the role of women in society should
:37:11. > :37:14.be, which is more than page three. If they changed it in Australia
:37:15. > :37:21.which is where Rupert Murdoch came from, why can they not change it in
:37:22. > :37:25.this country? You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just
:37:26. > :37:39.over 20 minutes... I'll be talking to man leading the campaign for
:37:40. > :37:45.I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in the North West: One year into the job,
:37:46. > :37:52.how well do you know your police commissioner and what do they do?
:37:53. > :37:58.Nothing at all, I'm sorry. I don't know. I have no idea. They get a lot
:37:59. > :38:03.of money to doing very little, very likely.
:38:04. > :38:05.We have not one but two police commissioners this week.
:38:06. > :38:12.Merseyside's Jane Kennedy and Cheshire's John Dwyer.
:38:13. > :38:17.One year on now, almost, what has been the big challenge for you?
:38:18. > :38:20.Working with the budget. For the first time we have been able to
:38:21. > :38:29.begin recruiting but that is because I have been able to reduce the cost
:38:30. > :38:34.of oversight. I have taken about ?700,000 in a year out of that cost.
:38:35. > :38:40.All of that money goes straight back into the police budget. The police
:38:41. > :38:47.force has been able to feel recruit again because of that. What has been
:38:48. > :38:52.the big challenge in Cheshire? Exactly the same. We had a ten week
:38:53. > :38:57.window to prepare our police and crime plan and a budget to go with
:38:58. > :39:03.it, and I had to find ?8.3 million savings. We did that by looking at
:39:04. > :39:07.ways to deliver policing slightly differently and those challenges
:39:08. > :39:13.still go on because it is fair to say we are facing challenges in
:39:14. > :39:17.budget cuts again this year. Those challenges are still there and we
:39:18. > :39:23.are trying to get the best value for money by delivering the service in a
:39:24. > :39:26.better way. Well this week, their counterpart in
:39:27. > :39:32.Greater Manchester, Tony Lloyd, supported a scheme to reduce
:39:33. > :39:35.domestic violence. Specialists are employed in hospitals where they can
:39:36. > :39:39.keep an eye open for possible victims. It follows a rise in the
:39:40. > :39:41.number of cases last year, as Claire Hamilton reports. Arriving at
:39:42. > :39:45.hospital can be traumatic, especially if you have been abused
:39:46. > :39:51.by your partner. I didn't quite know what hell I could or should have, I
:39:52. > :39:56.just knew I had to speak to somebody. This pilot scheme is
:39:57. > :40:01.offering practical help. Trained staff can spot the signs of domestic
:40:02. > :40:06.abuse and refer patients to other services. It is about giving them
:40:07. > :40:12.the training and the tools to identify patients that might be more
:40:13. > :40:18.subtle than they would be in an A department. This is part of the
:40:19. > :40:33.range of schemes to improve the experience for victims of domestic
:40:34. > :40:42.abuse. This is where they come to have treatment, and to help them to
:40:43. > :40:47.come from domestic abuse in their own life I think is a very good
:40:48. > :40:53.approach. Part of the remit of the PCC is to put victims of crime at
:40:54. > :40:57.the centre of their plans. Tony Lloyd has done what he said he would
:40:58. > :41:08.do, which is to set up a forum for witnesses and victims. If it
:41:09. > :41:11.succeeds, this scheme will be rolled out to other hospitals in greater
:41:12. > :41:17.Manchester. John, one of the big roles for you
:41:18. > :41:25.is to set the priorities of the force. Have you changed them for
:41:26. > :41:29.Cheshire at all? I have. This is certainly a priority for me, in fact
:41:30. > :41:35.victims across the board are priority for me. We represent the
:41:36. > :41:39.population, we are the public on the inside of the police service. We
:41:40. > :41:46.need to make sure the plan reflects the needs of the public we
:41:47. > :41:50.represent. I have invested ?100 000 in a holistic approach to dealing
:41:51. > :41:53.with domestic violence, where we are dealing with families and these
:41:54. > :41:59.families have implications not just for the police but for the health
:42:00. > :42:04.service and indeed other agencies so we hope that we can impact on that
:42:05. > :42:07.working together. These are the programmes we are developing across
:42:08. > :42:14.the board for the people of Cheshire. Have you changed
:42:15. > :42:21.priorities, Jane? Not dramatically, but I have changed the priority
:42:22. > :42:28.given to hate crime. We have units focusing on hate crime within
:42:29. > :42:32.Merseyside, but broadly working along the same priorities which is
:42:33. > :42:38.what the people of Merseyside wanted. When you choose priorities,
:42:39. > :42:43.are you guided by what the chief constable says? No, I think the
:42:44. > :42:48.greatest influence comes from the public. When you listen to them and
:42:49. > :42:53.their priorities, expressed through the various forms of communication
:42:54. > :42:59.we have, whether it be public meetings or social media, the focus
:43:00. > :43:07.has been on tackling serious and violent crime, none of it is rocket
:43:08. > :43:10.science and it is not broadly different to other areas of the
:43:11. > :43:20.region. Commissioners look after the finances. So let's take a look at
:43:21. > :43:21.recent budget cuts. According to Her Majesty's Inspectorate of
:43:22. > :43:25.Constabulary, Greater Manchester Police has to make cuts of ?141
:43:26. > :43:28.million by 2015 and will have more than 1,500 fewer officers compared
:43:29. > :43:31.with 2010. Merseyside Police will have saved ?62 million and lost 516
:43:32. > :43:34.officers. Elsewhere in the region, Cumbria's budget will be down by ?17
:43:35. > :43:42.million, reducing officer numbers by 104. Lancashire expects its total to
:43:43. > :43:48.reach ?43 million and 525 officers and in Cheshire, it's ?37 million
:43:49. > :43:52.and 241 officers. And those budget cuts will grow by 2017. To help fill
:43:53. > :43:58.the shortfall, all the forces recently increased their bit of your
:43:59. > :44:08.council tax bill. Eric Pickles was not very pleased with you for
:44:09. > :44:12.putting council tax up, was he? I was not going to toe the party line,
:44:13. > :44:22.I thought I would do what was best for the people of Cheshire. He said
:44:23. > :44:31.that you were a democracy dodger, putting it up by 1.99% to avoid a
:44:32. > :44:34.referendum. I have a lot of time for Eric but on this week deferred and
:44:35. > :44:40.since then we have been working hard to make sure the budget in Cheshire
:44:41. > :44:47.delivers the things the people in Cheshire want. You put up council
:44:48. > :44:54.tax by the same amount. I did, we have a responsibility not to
:44:55. > :44:58.overburden people with council tax rises which are either unnecessary
:44:59. > :45:04.or not spent efficiently. Secondary to the force itself to make sure
:45:05. > :45:15.they have the resources they need to deliver what the public expect. We
:45:16. > :45:19.also have a responsibility, as he said, two responsibilities. Do you
:45:20. > :45:28.think there is a distinction between being a Labour emission and a
:45:29. > :45:32.conservative Commissioner? I am not finding differences, we are
:45:33. > :45:36.wrestling with very similar problems. The scale of the problems
:45:37. > :45:43.might be different. In Merseyside I know we are facing a greater scale
:45:44. > :45:49.of cuts. When a flat rate percentage reduction is made, it hits
:45:50. > :45:55.Merseyside harder than Cheshire simply because of the structure of
:45:56. > :46:01.the grants. And you are considering sharing resources, tell me about
:46:02. > :46:08.that. We are discussing collaboration. Some of the backrooms
:46:09. > :46:13.like HR and finance, you don't need to do it 43 ways across the country
:46:14. > :46:17.so we are looking at ways we can work together and actually make
:46:18. > :46:25.savings which can be reinvesting in the sharp end. So you are keen to
:46:26. > :46:33.push that through? Absolutely, we are already doing this and it is
:46:34. > :46:40.working very well. Jane, is that something you are keen on as well? I
:46:41. > :46:43.am looking at it. I will not have collaboration just for the sake of
:46:44. > :46:47.it because it happens to be the flavour of the month. It is about
:46:48. > :46:54.the quality of service we can get for the money we are investing in
:46:55. > :46:59.it, and when our constituents are hard pressed facing cuts in their
:47:00. > :47:04.benefits or increases in the cost of living, it is our responsibility to
:47:05. > :47:09.get it as sensibly funded and well spent as possible. The important
:47:10. > :47:17.message is that we are talking about it and party politics has not raised
:47:18. > :47:21.its head at all. Let's talk about Cumbria's Police Commissioner next.
:47:22. > :47:25.Richard Rhodes had a tricky moment this year when he was forced to
:47:26. > :47:28.apologise for spending ?700 on two chauffeured car journeys. Police
:47:29. > :47:30.investigated the leak which led to concern about protecting
:47:31. > :47:33.whistle`blowers. Our reporter Stuart Pollitt has been on his trail
:47:34. > :47:43.finding out more about what police commissioners actually do. The first
:47:44. > :47:48.elections appear to have been marked by indifference... Police
:47:49. > :47:54.commissioners will be responsible for holding police forces to
:47:55. > :47:59.account. They have been in place for a year now but how much do you know
:48:00. > :48:03.about what your police and crime commission does? After all, less
:48:04. > :48:09.than two out of every ten people bothered to vote for them. I have
:48:10. > :48:18.come to Cumbria police's headquarters to find out more. Thank
:48:19. > :48:24.you for having us today. Welcome. Retired headmaster, Richard Rhodes,
:48:25. > :48:34.the Conservative candidate, was elected as Cumbria's PCC last year.
:48:35. > :48:39.His first task today is to hold a monthly public meeting questioning
:48:40. > :48:42.Cumbria's chief constable. We seem to be experiencing fairly
:48:43. > :48:48.significant levels of absence. I wonder if you would like to comment
:48:49. > :48:53.on that... What is the purpose of what we have seen this morning? The
:48:54. > :48:58.police and crime Commissioner should be the voice of the people in
:48:59. > :49:02.determining constabulary policy I don't have any influence over
:49:03. > :49:08.operational matters but of course the police and crime Commissioner
:49:09. > :49:12.does have the power of the purse. So are you confident you can maintain
:49:13. > :49:21.resources in the light of further cuts in funding? Insofar as knowing
:49:22. > :49:25.what they are likely to be, yes What is your biggest challenge in
:49:26. > :49:38.this role? Finding out what is going on in Cumbria. Do the people around
:49:39. > :49:49.Kendall's market know much about him? Do you know who yours is? No
:49:50. > :49:56.idea. Do you know what he does? Getting a lot of money is doing very
:49:57. > :50:05.little, likely. Have you heard of police crime Commissioner? Yes. Do
:50:06. > :50:12.you know much about Richard Rhodes? No, but there has been a lot of
:50:13. > :50:22.huffing and puffing about his expenses. Famous for claiming ? 00,
:50:23. > :50:26.which he later paid back, for two chauffeur`driven trips to meetings
:50:27. > :50:35.in Ambleside and Bassenthwaite. Do you think it has done damage to
:50:36. > :50:44.yourself? It was a genuine mistake but I have put it right and in that
:50:45. > :50:56.context, yes I think it has been overplayed. The residents are
:50:57. > :51:01.reluctant to phone the 101 number. There is also an issue of youngsters
:51:02. > :51:07.raising concerns. Hopefully there is an outlet where Richard can do
:51:08. > :51:13.things about it and I hope that is the case. Are you still convinced
:51:14. > :51:18.his role as a good idea? There is a long way to go but potentially, yes,
:51:19. > :51:24.his job could be extremely significant.
:51:25. > :51:26.And we're joined now by Mick Gradwell, a former Detective
:51:27. > :51:35.Superintendent with Lancashire Police. How well are these police
:51:36. > :51:41.commissioners working? There are concerns it has politicised the
:51:42. > :51:44.police. That worries people, it disinfects some people. You have
:51:45. > :51:50.also got the feeling from police officers that may be the
:51:51. > :51:55.commissioners are not standing up to fight the austerity cuts. There is a
:51:56. > :51:59.great worry about the level of response policing out there. If the
:52:00. > :52:06.public knew about how many officers there are out at particular times of
:52:07. > :52:11.the day, they would be terrified. What about commissioners getting
:52:12. > :52:16.involved in operational issues? Basically, they come with their
:52:17. > :52:22.party colours and they can turn off certain communities. In terms of
:52:23. > :52:27.operational policing, I have heard things from divisional commanders
:52:28. > :52:30.who have some of the main goals as the police and crime commissioners
:52:31. > :52:37.and they feel they have an ally in going from their resources and for
:52:38. > :52:42.the first time they feel they have support to get the right priorities
:52:43. > :52:51.to help them. It has been a very difficult year for your former force
:52:52. > :52:56.in Lancashire. In a way, the police and crime Commissioner has become a
:52:57. > :53:03.lame duck. Because of questions about his expenses occurred before
:53:04. > :53:18.he became a Commissioner? Yes, that is what he is known for and it takes
:53:19. > :53:26.away from the vital job he is doing. He would say, hang on, I haven't
:53:27. > :53:32.been charged with anything yet. It is just one of those things, years
:53:33. > :53:38.in this position and it appears he cannot do his own expenses. Do you
:53:39. > :53:44.think he should resign? No, we don't know what the outcome will be. Let's
:53:45. > :53:50.give him a chance. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Let's
:53:51. > :53:55.see what the response is to the outcome of the investigation. When
:53:56. > :54:01.you look at the commissioners who have got into trouble, neither of
:54:02. > :54:08.those were former politicians. Do you think being a former politician
:54:09. > :54:14.helps? In some respects. It has given me an idea of public
:54:15. > :54:20.expectation. I am more cautious and aware of areas of likely public
:54:21. > :54:27.criticism. The pressure is on all of us. I think it has been a much more
:54:28. > :54:33.time pressured job than I expected. At the same time, it is hugely
:54:34. > :54:38.rewarding to do, as Richard has been doing, meeting people on the
:54:39. > :54:42.streets, sitting with the police in their meetings, listening to them
:54:43. > :54:47.engaging with the public. It is fantastic work they are doing and it
:54:48. > :54:55.gives us a chance to listen to the public and have the police response.
:54:56. > :55:01.You are former police constable yourself, has that been a positive
:55:02. > :55:05.or a hindrance? I think it is a positive because I understand how
:55:06. > :55:10.the police think and there has been no attempt to pull the wool over my
:55:11. > :55:16.eyes. It has allowed me to articulate the point in terms of
:55:17. > :55:25.detection rates for burglary, for example. They have risen to the
:55:26. > :55:44.challenge of increasing the rate of detection for burglary. My weeks
:55:45. > :55:49.consist of five 12`hour days. Let's look at how much our commissioners
:55:50. > :55:55.are costing compared with the police authorities they replaced. In each
:55:56. > :55:59.county the cost has dropped, ranging from more than 30% in Merseyside,
:56:00. > :56:03.20% in Greater Manchester and 1 % in Cumbria to five in Cheshire and
:56:04. > :56:06.Lancashire. And the commissioners' salaries also vary quite widely
:56:07. > :56:09.Tony Lloyd in Manchester is the best paid ` he's on ?100,000 a year,
:56:10. > :56:14.compared with Richard Rhodes in Cumbria, who earns ?65,000 by
:56:15. > :56:18.comparison. Jane, I remember you saying that one
:56:19. > :56:27.of your main targets was to reduce the cost of the office. You have
:56:28. > :56:33.achieved that. I have done that we now have a clear agenda, we are
:56:34. > :56:40.well`established, but we have saved the force year on year, the police
:56:41. > :56:45.budget will have less money taken out of it for the cost of oversight
:56:46. > :56:50.but I believe get better oversight as a result. Your critics say you
:56:51. > :56:59.have reduced the cost but the expense of being able to do your
:57:00. > :57:03.job, at the expense of that. Interestingly, from what Nick was
:57:04. > :57:10.saying earlier, having been a politician, I can have meetings as
:57:11. > :57:14.you saw Richard Rhodes having with the whole senior team, going in
:57:15. > :57:18.detail through the performance of the force which the police authority
:57:19. > :57:22.used to take several committees over a long period of time with mountains
:57:23. > :57:33.of paperwork to achieve the same result. You are getting just as
:57:34. > :57:38.incisive and detailed scrutiny now. In my force you had to persuade 17
:57:39. > :57:47.members, and now it is only me that has to be persuaded, and equally I
:57:48. > :57:50.am producing initiatives, saying to them this is what the people of
:57:51. > :57:54.Cheshire want you to do. I want people to understand that our job is
:57:55. > :58:00.not the same as the old police authority. We are not just
:58:01. > :58:04.overseeing the police, we have other responsibilities as well. Are you
:58:05. > :58:12.more reassured about the way this has gone the you were before? No, I
:58:13. > :58:18.think it is too big a job and you need somebody with ideally political
:58:19. > :58:25.and policing experience. All in one person. The better the experience,
:58:26. > :58:30.the better it is, but it is too much power in one person. Time for the
:58:31. > :58:36.rest of the week's news now. Here's Euan Doak with 60 seconds.
:58:37. > :58:39.Calls this week for a Lancashire councillor to resign after attending
:58:40. > :58:43.a Downing Street party while wanted for questioning over a murder in
:58:44. > :58:47.Pakistan. Abdul Aziz couldn't be reached but has previously said he
:58:48. > :58:51.was in England at the time of the killing.
:58:52. > :58:54.More controversy at Lancashire county council ` this time a damning
:58:55. > :58:58.report into the procurement of a telecoms contract involving a
:58:59. > :59:01."fundamental lack of transparency". Liverpool is asking the Government
:59:02. > :59:08.to ban fixed`odds betting terminals or give councils powers to take
:59:09. > :59:14.action. The council is the first in the country to vote for a ban. It is
:59:15. > :59:21.not good for Liverpool and it is a huge amount taken out of the
:59:22. > :59:33.economy. Sean Woods has said he will be stepping down.
:59:34. > :59:36.And a petition against plans to build flats on the Summerland site
:59:37. > :59:39.was handed in to the Manx Government. The leisure complex
:59:40. > :59:43.burnt to the ground in 1973, killing 50 people.
:59:44. > :59:48.Jane, what do you make of the idea about tighter controls of gambling?
:59:49. > :59:52.I think it is a good idea and I hope the Government will listen to what
:59:53. > :59:58.the councillors are saying. Very strongly supported across the
:59:59. > :00:06.county. I think it will help to cut crime. I go with that as well. Any
:00:07. > :00:10.tightening up of the regulations is fine, and equally tightening up of
:00:11. > :00:15.money lending is important because we know that in the main it is
:00:16. > :00:21.disadvantaged families getting subjected to excessive borrowing. It
:00:22. > :00:25.is bad news so if we can do something to help, that would be
:00:26. > :00:27.great. Just time to thank Jane and John for joining me this week.
:00:28. > :00:38.more equipment so they can see cyclists. Back to you, Andrew.
:00:39. > :00:43.We learned this week that no more warships will be built at
:00:44. > :00:46.Portsmouth, the home of the Royal Navy since the days of the Mary Rose
:00:47. > :00:50.and Francis Drake. But has the city been sacrificed to save jobs on the
:00:51. > :00:54.Clyde in Scotland? Is England the loser in an effort to keep the
:00:55. > :01:04.United Kingdom intact? Let's speak to Eddie Bone, he leads the campaign
:01:05. > :01:08.for an English Parliament. Is England the loser in this attempt to
:01:09. > :01:16.doubt, Andrew. We would look at it from the campaign for the English
:01:17. > :01:21.Parliament that the British governance is bribing the Scots to
:01:22. > :01:27.stay with the union at the cost of English jobs. What is the best
:01:28. > :01:31.outcome for England when Scotland votes in the referendum next year?
:01:32. > :01:34.We have got to have an English parliament. What I mean by that is
:01:35. > :01:41.an endless governor and with a first minister speaking on behalf of the
:01:42. > :01:45.people of England. -- and English government. If Scotland votes for
:01:46. > :01:52.independence, that is the union coming to an end. It will be
:01:53. > :01:59.dissolved legally. England would be going to negotiating table without
:02:00. > :02:04.true representation. The union continues but it continues without
:02:05. > :02:09.Scotland. I want to come back to my... That is the constitutional
:02:10. > :02:14.position. You may not agree with me but that is the constitutional
:02:15. > :02:20.position. Do you want Scotland to vote for independence next year We
:02:21. > :02:26.want a fair deal with equality for England. If that can be maintained
:02:27. > :02:30.or England can have a fair deal within the union, that is brilliant.
:02:31. > :02:34.Let's have a federal system are all the nations are treated equally If
:02:35. > :02:43.that cannot happen and Scotland decides to stay, if Scotland goes,
:02:44. > :02:48.it is an independent England, isn't it? If Scotland votes to leave the
:02:49. > :02:52.union, what is left of the United Kingdom would be so dominated by
:02:53. > :02:57.England at Westminster would, in effect, Beale English Parliament,
:02:58. > :03:04.wouldn't it? I do not agree with you. I think that is a British, deny
:03:05. > :03:09.list approach. The act of union was a fusion with the King of England to
:03:10. > :03:13.the King of Scotland. That would come to an end. The Welsh are very
:03:14. > :03:18.concerned. They are a very small nation. If you have a botched
:03:19. > :03:23.British come English Parliament the Welsh would be in a very vulnerable
:03:24. > :03:28.situation. They would not be listened to. Also a situation with
:03:29. > :03:31.Northern Ireland. There are voices in Northern Ireland talking about
:03:32. > :03:36.trying to reunite Northern Ireland. It would be a very volatile
:03:37. > :03:41.situation. Would you prefer England to become an independent nation
:03:42. > :03:45.separate from what was left of the UK, which would be Wales and
:03:46. > :03:51.Northern Ireland? Would you like to see England have a seat in the UN? I
:03:52. > :03:58.want their representation for the people of England. English jobs were
:03:59. > :04:05.sacrificed because the British government wanted Scotland to
:04:06. > :04:14.remain... You have answered that very quickly. I am -- very clearly.
:04:15. > :04:20.Would you want England, without Northern Ireland and Wales to become
:04:21. > :04:24.a separate nation state? If that is what it takes for people of England
:04:25. > :04:28.to have their representation - representation that looks at
:04:29. > :04:32.policies of the NHS, education very different from Wales and Northern
:04:33. > :04:36.Ireland - then so be it. Independence will need to be the way
:04:37. > :04:48.forward. We have a small window of opportunity that the federal system
:04:49. > :04:56.might still work. D1 indenting have a system like Scotland? -- do you
:04:57. > :05:02.want England to have a system like Scotland? What we need to do now is
:05:03. > :05:08.implement the process is to get their representation for England. I
:05:09. > :05:13.would urge your viewers to join our campaign because it is the only way
:05:14. > :05:18.to protect jobs in England, protect the NHS, protect education.
:05:19. > :05:21.Otherwise we will see the people in England continually penalised by the
:05:22. > :05:27.British government is trying desperately to save the union by
:05:28. > :05:32.giving more to Scotland and Wales. Nice to talk to you. Helen, on this
:05:33. > :05:37.business of the Clyde versus Portsmouth, it would have been
:05:38. > :05:41.pretty inconceivable of the British government that believes in the
:05:42. > :05:46.union to have allowed the Clyde to close. That would have been a
:05:47. > :05:51.disaster. It would have been. It's dumped Nicola Sturgeon. Hang on a
:05:52. > :05:54.minute, if there was Scottish independence, England were not allow
:05:55. > :05:59.its warships to be built in a foreign country. She was unable to
:06:00. > :06:04.admit there were any downsides to Scottish independence. It would be
:06:05. > :06:08.dangerous for Scotland to talk about this. You have a Lib Dem and a
:06:09. > :06:13.Conservative MP with reasonable majorities. They will find that a
:06:14. > :06:19.killer on their doorstep in the next election. There are no results in
:06:20. > :06:24.this for Mr Cameron. He has one MP and he will be lucky to have two.
:06:25. > :06:30.And the South of England, I know Portsmouth is quite an industrial
:06:31. > :06:34.area, but the South of England is overall Tory territory. He has
:06:35. > :06:38.backed the Clyde where there are no Tory votes. The Tory problem in
:06:39. > :06:42.Scotland is crucial. The trend to look out for is the rise of English
:06:43. > :06:47.nationalism within the Conservative Party. They have the word Unionist
:06:48. > :06:51.in their official title. If, in election after election, they failed
:06:52. > :06:54.to win a significant presence in Scotland, and they are failing to
:06:55. > :07:01.win a majority in Westminster because of that, it is not hard to
:07:02. > :07:09.imagine that in ten years time that would be a party which has more
:07:10. > :07:14.autonomy. One person we know who does not sign up to that. David
:07:15. > :07:18.Cameron is a romantic Unionist at heart he may say that are not any
:07:19. > :07:25.vote in Scotland but he want to keep the union together. With the Clyde,
:07:26. > :07:29.you saw a rival together of economic and political interests. It is
:07:30. > :07:32.economic or the case the greatest shipbuilding capability in the
:07:33. > :07:36.United Kingdom is in the Clyde. It is politically very helpful for this
:07:37. > :07:40.government to say to people in Scotland, look at the benefits of
:07:41. > :07:44.being in the United Kingdom and under their breath, or in the case
:07:45. > :07:51.of Alistair Carmichael to a camera, look what might go if you leave
:07:52. > :07:55.That came together very conveniently to the government. Now, how do you
:07:56. > :07:58.like your politicians? Squeaky clean with an impeccable past? Or are you
:07:59. > :08:01.happy for them to have a few skeletons in the closet? Well, last
:08:02. > :08:04.week the Toronto Mayor Rob Ford admitted smoking crack cocaine. He
:08:05. > :08:08.said he took the drug about a year ago whilst in a drunken stupor. So,
:08:09. > :08:12.what impact do confessions have on a political career? In a moment, we'll
:08:13. > :08:20.hear what our panel has to say, but first, take a look at this. Yes I
:08:21. > :08:26.have smoked crack cocaine. Am I an addict? No. Have I tried it?
:08:27. > :08:32.Probably one of my drunken stupor is, about a year ago. I have used
:08:33. > :08:39.drugs in the past. I have used class a drugs in the past. About 30 years
:08:40. > :08:45.ago at university, I did smoke cannabis. I took cannabis is a few
:08:46. > :08:51.times at university and it was wrong. Have you snorted cocaine I
:08:52. > :09:17.tried to but unsuccessfully years ago. I sneezed. The people around
:09:18. > :09:24.you who took cocaine, they went .. Is it better to confess or the that
:09:25. > :09:30.get you into even more hot water? It is absolutely better. The confession
:09:31. > :09:36.by Jacqui Smith was without glamour. Finding a Labour politician who once
:09:37. > :09:42.smoked cannabis 25 years ago... I do not think it makes you think that
:09:43. > :09:46.she cannot be a serious politician. Politicians should brace thing about
:09:47. > :09:52.them which everyone knows. In the case of Ed Miliband, he should not
:09:53. > :10:03.deny being geeky. That would reek of in authenticity. The Tory MP meant
:10:04. > :10:08.to be regarded as a rising star turns out he was claiming to heat
:10:09. > :10:14.his horses stables at the expense of the tax payer. He had made a
:10:15. > :10:17.generous claim for energy bills in his constituency home. He went
:10:18. > :10:21.through the papers and found he had been using it to heat the stables
:10:22. > :10:27.and he laid it all out and did the right thing. He was completely
:10:28. > :10:35.honest. Is that the end of it? It will still haunt in because energy
:10:36. > :10:40.is such a big issue. He was right to be honest about it. Helen was
:10:41. > :10:44.saying, absolutely, you need to be honest about your past. Harriet
:10:45. > :10:49.Harman said she smoked pot at university. If you have smoked pot,
:10:50. > :10:57.you can have a front line career. If you have taken class a drugs, you
:10:58. > :10:59.cannot have a front line career There is the politician confessing
:11:00. > :11:04.and the remarkable willingness of the public to forgive. It is
:11:05. > :11:09.enlightened and progressive to forgive a politician for an affair
:11:10. > :11:14.or taking soft drugs at university. To smoke crack cocaine and demand be
:11:15. > :11:19.mad of following the Mayor of Toronto does astonishes me. There
:11:20. > :11:25.was an example in America a few years ago. It was crack cocaine He
:11:26. > :11:32.was elected having confessed to smoking crack cocaine. I draw the
:11:33. > :11:38.line around class a drugs. We will put the team on to investigate him.
:11:39. > :11:41.Help to Bible come back into the headlines again. Mr Cameron will
:11:42. > :11:45.surroundings by the people who are benefiting from buying their homes
:11:46. > :11:51.on this scheme in the same way that this is that you used to visit those
:11:52. > :11:55.who had bought their council houses. It will become hugely politicised.
:11:56. > :12:03.The Bank of England thinks that unemployment will drop late 201 ,
:12:04. > :12:08.early 2015. They will put interest rates up. Those with 95% mortgages
:12:09. > :12:13.will have two find an extra ?40 a month to pay them off. I would not
:12:14. > :12:25.be surprised if David Cameron is setting up himself with this
:12:26. > :12:34.trouble. They will not want to raise interest rates. Mark Carney was very
:12:35. > :12:38.careful to give himself three get out clauses. If unemployment hits a
:12:39. > :12:42.certain level, Key has three measures which have to be fulfilled
:12:43. > :12:46.before he goes ahead and raises interest rates. As a Tory
:12:47. > :12:51.strategist, would you rather go into the election with low and implement
:12:52. > :13:00.or low interest rates? I think they would stick to low interest rates.
:13:01. > :13:04.-- low unemployment. It is not just panellists who are raising questions
:13:05. > :13:11.about it, it is senior figures people in senior economic positions.
:13:12. > :13:15.They are saying the scheme is fine at the moment. David Cameron will be
:13:16. > :13:20.surrounded by people who have taken mortgages out at low levels and it
:13:21. > :13:26.is all fine right now but if interest rates go up, it will not be
:13:27. > :13:29.cosy. That's all folks. The Daily Politics is back tomorrow on BBC Two
:13:30. > :13:32.at midday. I'll be back next Sunday at the normal time of 11am.
:13:33. > :13:43.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.