:00:35. > :00:39.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:40. > :00:42.Labour's been hit hard by scandals at the Co-op. Ed Miliband says the
:00:43. > :00:45.Tories are mudslinging. We'll speak to Conservative Chairman Grant
:00:46. > :00:48.Shapps. Five years on from the financial
:00:49. > :00:51.crisis, and we're still talking about banks in trouble. Why haven't
:00:52. > :00:56.the regulators got the message? We'll ask the man who runs the
:00:57. > :01:00.City's new financial watchdog. And he used to have a windmill on
:01:01. > :01:04.his roof and talked about giving hugs to hoodies and huskies. These
:01:05. > :01:07.days, not so much. Has the plan to make the Conservative Party
:01:08. > :01:13.In the North West: The fallout here from the Co`op bank scandal.
:01:14. > :01:15.And ` fuelling the local economy or heading for meltdown? What's the
:01:16. > :01:18.future for our nuclear warned that benefit falls will be to
:01:19. > :01:25.homelessness and population ships. What is the evidence?
:01:26. > :01:30.And as always, the political panel that reaches the parts other shows
:01:31. > :01:34.can only dream of. Janan Ganesh Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. They ll
:01:35. > :01:38.be tweeting faster than England loses wickets to Australia. Yes
:01:39. > :01:41.they're really that fast. First, some big news overnight from
:01:42. > :01:44.Geneva, where Iran has agreed to curb some of its nuclear activities
:01:45. > :01:49.in return for the partial easing of sanctions. Iran will pause the
:01:50. > :01:59.enrichment of uranium to weapons grade and America will free up some
:02:00. > :02:02.funds for Iran to spend. May be up to $10 billion. A more comprehensive
:02:03. > :02:05.deal is supposed to be done in six months. Here's what President Obama
:02:06. > :02:13.had to say about this interim agreement. We have pursued intensive
:02:14. > :02:18.diplomacy, bilaterally with the Iranians, and together with our
:02:19. > :02:22.partners, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Russia and China,
:02:23. > :02:28.as well as the European Union. Today, that diplomacy opened up a
:02:29. > :02:34.new path towards a world that is more secure, a future in which we
:02:35. > :02:40.can verify that Iraq and's nuclear programme is peaceful, and that it
:02:41. > :02:44.cannot build a nuclear weapon. President Obama spoke from the White
:02:45. > :02:50.House last night. Now the difficulty begins. This is meant to lead to a
:02:51. > :02:56.full-scale agreement which will effectively end all sanctions, and
:02:57. > :02:59.end Iran's ability to have a bomb. The early signs are pretty good The
:03:00. > :03:05.Iranian currency strengthened overnight, which is exactly what the
:03:06. > :03:13.Iranians wanted. Inflation in Iraq is 40%, so they need a stronger
:03:14. > :03:17.currency. -- information in Iran. France has played a blinder. It was
:03:18. > :03:21.there intransigence that led to this. Otherwise, I think the West
:03:22. > :03:26.would have led to a much softer deal. The question now becomes
:03:27. > :03:32.implementation. Here, everything hinges on two questions. First, who
:03:33. > :03:37.is Hassan Rouhani? Is he the Iranians Gorbachev, a serious
:03:38. > :03:43.reformer, or he's here much more tactical and cynical figure? Or
:03:44. > :03:46.within Iran, how powerful is he There are military men and
:03:47. > :03:53.intelligence officials within Iran who may stymie the process. The
:03:54. > :03:58.Western media concentrate on the fact that Mr Netanyahu and the
:03:59. > :04:03.Israelis are not happy about this. They don't often mention that the
:04:04. > :04:08.Arab Gulf states are also very apprehensive about this deal. I read
:04:09. > :04:19.this morning that the enemies of Qatar and Kuwait went to Saudi king.
:04:20. > :04:24.-- the MAs row. That is the key thing to watch in the next couple of
:04:25. > :04:29.weeks. There was a response from Saudi Arabia, but it came from the
:04:30. > :04:33.Prime Minister of Israel, who said this was a historic mistake. The
:04:34. > :04:37.United States said there would be no enrichment of uranium to weapons
:04:38. > :04:41.grade. In the last few minutes, the Iranian Foreign Minister has tweeted
:04:42. > :04:51.to say that there is an inalienable right -- right to enrich. The key
:04:52. > :04:55.thing is the most important thing that President Obama said in his
:04:56. > :04:59.inaugural speech. He reached out to Iran. It failed under President
:05:00. > :05:06.McKenna jab. Under President Rouhani, there seems to be progress.
:05:07. > :05:10.There is potentially now what he talked about in that first inaugural
:05:11. > :05:17.address potentially coming through. In the end, the key issue - and we
:05:18. > :05:21.don't know the answer - is the supreme leader, not the president.
:05:22. > :05:26.Will the supreme leader agreed to Iran giving up its ability to create
:05:27. > :05:31.nuclear weapons? This is the huge ambiguity. Ayatollah Khamenei
:05:32. > :05:37.authorise the position that President Rouhani took to Geneva.
:05:38. > :05:43.That doesn't mean he will sign off on every bit of implementation over
:05:44. > :05:48.the next six months. Even when President Ahmadinejad was president,
:05:49. > :05:54.he wasn't really President. We in the West have to resort to a kind of
:05:55. > :06:04.Iranians version of the study of the Kremlin, to work out what is going
:06:05. > :06:11.on. And the problem the president faces is that if there is any
:06:12. > :06:15.sign... He can unlock these funds by executive order at the moment, but
:06:16. > :06:20.if he needs any more, he has to go to Congress. Both the Democrat and
:06:21. > :06:27.the Republican side have huge scepticism about this. And he has
:06:28. > :06:31.very low credibility now. There s already been angry noises coming
:06:32. > :06:36.from quite a lot of senators. It was quite strange to see that photo of
:06:37. > :06:40.John Kerry hugging Cathy Ashton as if they had survived a ship great
:06:41. > :06:50.together. John Kerry is clearly feeling very happy. We will keep an
:06:51. > :06:52.eye on this. It is a fascinating development.
:06:53. > :06:55.More lurid details about the personal life of the Co-op Bank s
:06:56. > :07:00.disgraced former chairman, the Reverend Paul Flowers. The links
:07:01. > :07:03.between Labour, the bank and the wider Co-op movement have caused big
:07:04. > :07:08.problems for Ed Miliband this week, and the Conservatives have been
:07:09. > :07:11.revelling in it. But do the Tory allegations - Ed Miliband calls them
:07:12. > :07:21."smears" - stack up? Party Chairman Grant Shapps joins us from Hatfield.
:07:22. > :07:30.Welcome to the programme. When it comes to the Co-op, what are you
:07:31. > :07:34.accusing Labour of knowing and when? I think the simple thing to say here
:07:35. > :07:40.is that the Co-op is an important bank. They have obviously got into
:07:41. > :07:44.difficulty with Reverend flowers, and our primary concern is making
:07:45. > :07:47.sure that that is properly investigated, and that we understand
:07:48. > :07:50.what happened at the bank and how somebody like Paul Flowers could
:07:51. > :07:56.have ended up thing appointed chairman. You wrote to edge Miliband
:07:57. > :08:03.on Tuesday and asked him what he knew and when. -- you wrote to Ed
:08:04. > :08:06.Miliband. But by Prime Minister s Questions on Wednesday, David
:08:07. > :08:13.Cameron claims that you knew that Labour knew about his past all
:08:14. > :08:20.along. What is the evidence for that? We found out by Wednesday that
:08:21. > :08:26.he had been a Labour councillor Reverend Flowers, and had been made
:08:27. > :08:29.to stand down. Certainly, Labour knew about that, but somehow didn't
:08:30. > :08:36.seem to think that that made him less appropriate to be the chairman
:08:37. > :08:42.of the Co-op bank. There was no evidence that Mr Miliband or Mr
:08:43. > :08:47.Balls knew about that. I ask you again, what are you accusing the
:08:48. > :08:57.Labour leadership of knowing? We know now that he stood down for very
:08:58. > :08:59.inappropriate images on his computer, apparently. You are
:09:00. > :09:04.telling me that they didn't know. I am not sure that is clear at all. I
:09:05. > :09:08.have heard conflicting reports. There is a much bigger argument
:09:09. > :09:14.about what they knew and when. There was a much bigger issue here. This
:09:15. > :09:18.morning, Ed Miliband has said that they don't have to answer these
:09:19. > :09:21.questions and that these smears This is ludicrous. These are
:09:22. > :09:25.important questions about an important bank, how it ended up
:09:26. > :09:32.getting into this position, and how a disastrous Britannia -- Italia
:09:33. > :09:39.deal happen. -- Britannia deal happened. And we need to know how
:09:40. > :09:42.the bank came off the rails. To be accused of smears for asking the
:09:43. > :09:47.questions is ridiculous. I am just trying to find out what you are
:09:48. > :09:53.accusing Labour of. You saying that the Labour leadership knew about the
:09:54. > :10:02.drug-taking? Sorry, there was some noise here. I don't know what was
:10:03. > :10:06.known and when. We do know that Labour, the party, certainly knew
:10:07. > :10:11.about these very difficult circumstances in which he resigned
:10:12. > :10:16.as a councillor. I think that the Labour Party knew about it. We knew
:10:17. > :10:20.that Bradford did, but not London. Are you saying that Ed Miliband knew
:10:21. > :10:25.about the inappropriate material on the Reverend's laptop? It is
:10:26. > :10:32.certainly the case that Labour knew about it. But did Mr Miliband know
:10:33. > :10:39.about it, and his predilection for rent boys? He will need to answer
:10:40. > :10:44.those questions. It is quite proper to ask those questions. Surely,
:10:45. > :10:48.asking a perfectly legitimate set of questions, not just about that but
:10:49. > :10:52.about how we have ended up in a situation where this bank has made
:10:53. > :10:58.loans to Labour for millions of pounds, that bank and the Unite
:10:59. > :11:05.bank, who is connected to it. And how they made a ?50,000 donation to
:11:06. > :11:10.Ed Balls' office. Ed Balls says that was nothing to do with Reverend
:11:11. > :11:15.Flowers, and yet Reverend Flowers said that he personally signed that
:11:16. > :11:19.off. Lots of questions to answer. David Cameron has already answered
:11:20. > :11:25.them on Wednesday. He said that you now know that Labour knew about his
:11:26. > :11:28.past all along. You have not been able to present evidence that
:11:29. > :11:34.involve Mr Miliband or Mr Balls in that. So until you get that, surely
:11:35. > :11:38.you should apologise? Hang on. He said that Labour knew about this,
:11:39. > :11:44.and they did, because he stood down as a councillor. If Ed Miliband
:11:45. > :11:49.didn't know about that, then why not? This was quite a serious thing
:11:50. > :11:53.that happened. The wider point is about why it is that when you ask
:11:54. > :11:57.perfectly legitimate questions about this bank, about the Britannia deal,
:11:58. > :12:07.and about the background of Mr flowers, why is the response, it is
:12:08. > :12:10.all smears? There are questions about how Labour failed to deal with
:12:11. > :12:14.the deficit and how it hasn't done anything to support the welfare
:12:15. > :12:23.changes, but there is nothing about that. Let us -- lets: To the wider
:12:24. > :12:31.picture of the Co-operative Bank. Labour wanted the Co-op to take over
:12:32. > :12:36.the Britannia Building Society, and it was a disaster. Do you accept
:12:37. > :12:43.that? The government of the day has to be a part of these discussions
:12:44. > :12:48.for regulatory reason. The government in 2009 - Ed Balls was
:12:49. > :12:55.very pleased... But you supported that decision. There was a later
:12:56. > :12:59.deal, potentially, for the Co-op to buy those Lloyds branches. There was
:13:00. > :13:07.a proper process and it didn't go through just recently. If there had
:13:08. > :13:13.been a proper process back in 2 09, would the Britannia deal have gone
:13:14. > :13:18.through? First, you accept that the Tories were in favour of the
:13:19. > :13:22.Britannia take over. Then your Chancellor Osborne went out of his
:13:23. > :13:25.way to facilitate the purchase of the Lloyds branches, even though you
:13:26. > :13:33.had no idea that the Co-op had the management expertise to become a
:13:34. > :13:39.super medium. Correct? The difference is that that deal didn't
:13:40. > :13:46.go through. There was a proper process that took place. Let's look
:13:47. > :13:52.at the process. There was long indications as far back as January
:13:53. > :13:57.2012 that the Co-op, as a direct result of the Britannia take over
:13:58. > :14:01.which you will party supported, was unfit to acquire the Lloyds
:14:02. > :14:08.branches. By January 2012, the Chancellor and the Treasury ignored
:14:09. > :14:11.the warnings. Wide? In 2009, there was political pressure for the
:14:12. > :14:16.Britannia to be brought together. Based on the information available,
:14:17. > :14:19.this was supported, but that process ended up with a very, very
:14:20. > :14:25.problematic takeover of the Britannia. Wind forward to this
:14:26. > :14:28.year, and when the same types of issues were being looked at for the
:14:29. > :14:33.purchase of the Lloyds deal, the proper process was followed, this
:14:34. > :14:37.time with us in government, and that purchase didn't go through. It is
:14:38. > :14:40.important that the proper process is followed, and when it was, it
:14:41. > :14:50.transpired that the deal wasn't going to be done. But it was the
:14:51. > :14:55.Treasury and the Chancellor who were the cheerleaders for the acquisition
:14:56. > :14:59.of the Lloyds branches. But there was a warning that the Co-op did not
:15:00. > :15:02.have enough capital on its balance sheet to make those acquisitions,
:15:03. > :15:08.but instead of heeding those warnings, your people went to
:15:09. > :15:13.Brussels to lobby for the requirements to be relaxed - why on
:15:14. > :15:17.earth did you do that? Our Chancellor went to argue for all of
:15:18. > :15:22.Rajesh banking, not specifically for the Co-op. He was arguing for the
:15:23. > :15:28.mutuals to be given a special ruling. The idea was to make sure
:15:29. > :15:33.that every bank in Britain could have a better deal, particularly the
:15:34. > :15:36.mutuals, as you say. That is a proper thing for the Chancellor to
:15:37. > :15:40.be doing. We could go round in circles here, but in the end, there
:15:41. > :15:44.was not a takeover of the Lloyds branches, that is because we
:15:45. > :15:49.followed a proper process. Had that same rigorous process been followed
:15:50. > :15:53.in 2009, the legitimate question to ask is whether the Co-op would have
:15:54. > :15:57.been -- would have taken over the Britannia. That is a proper question
:15:58. > :16:01.to ask. It is no good to have the leader of the opposition say, as
:16:02. > :16:04.soon as you ask any of these questions about anything where there
:16:05. > :16:09.is a problem for them, they come back with, oh, this is all smears.
:16:10. > :16:13.There are questions to ask about what the Labour government did, the
:16:14. > :16:18.debt and the deficit they left the country with, the way they stopped
:16:19. > :16:22.work from paying in this country. The big question your government has
:16:23. > :16:26.two answer is, why, by July 201 , when it was clear there was a black
:16:27. > :16:31.hole in the Co-op's balance sheet, your government re-confirmed the
:16:32. > :16:36.Co-op as the preferred bidder for Lloyds - why would you do that?
:16:37. > :16:40.Well, look, the good thing is, we can discuss this until the cows come
:16:41. > :16:44.home, but there is going to be a proper, full investigation, so we
:16:45. > :16:49.will find out what happened, all the way back. So, we will be able to get
:16:50. > :16:53.to the bottom of all of this. Grant Shapps, the only reason the Lloyds
:16:54. > :16:59.deal did not go ahead was, despite the Treasury cheerleading, when
:17:00. > :17:02.Lloyds began its due diligence, it found that there was indeed a huge
:17:03. > :17:07.black hole in the balance sheet and that the Co-op was not fit to take
:17:08. > :17:12.over its branches. That wasn't you, it wasn't the Government, it was not
:17:13. > :17:18.the Chancellor, it was Lloyds. You were still cheerleading for the deal
:17:19. > :17:22.to go ahead... Well, as I say, a proper process was followed, which
:17:23. > :17:26.did not result in the purchase of the Lloyds branches. At that proper
:17:27. > :17:31.process been followed with the purchase of the Britannia, under the
:17:32. > :17:36.previous government... Which you supported. Yes, but it may well be
:17:37. > :17:40.that under that previous deal, there was a excess political pressure
:17:41. > :17:48.perhaps put on in order to create that merger, which proved so
:17:49. > :17:53.disastrous. The Tories facilitated it, Grant Shapps, they allowed it to
:17:54. > :17:57.go ahead. I have said, we are going to have a proper, independent
:17:58. > :18:01.review. What I cannot understand is, when you announce a robber,
:18:02. > :18:08.independent review, the response you get to these serious questions. The
:18:09. > :18:13.response is, oh, this is a smear. It is crazy. We are trying to answer
:18:14. > :18:23.the big questions for this country. We have done all of that, and we are
:18:24. > :18:25.out of time. The Reverend Flowers' chairmanship of the Co-op bank was
:18:26. > :18:31.approved by the regulator at the time, which no longer exists. It was
:18:32. > :18:35.swept away by the coalition government in a supposed revolution
:18:36. > :18:38.in regulation. But will its replacement, the Financial Conduct
:18:39. > :18:47.Authority, be different? Adam has been to find out. Come with me for a
:18:48. > :18:52.spin around the Square mile to find out how we regulate our financial
:18:53. > :18:57.sector, which is almost five times bigger than the country's entire
:18:58. > :19:02.annual income. First, let's pick up our guide, journalist Iain Martin,
:19:03. > :19:08.who has just written a book about what went so wrong during the
:19:09. > :19:10.financial crisis. The FSA was an agency which was established to
:19:11. > :19:15.supervise the banks on a day-to day basis. The Bank of England was
:19:16. > :19:18.supposed to have overall responsible at for this to Bolivia the financial
:19:19. > :19:23.system and the Treasury was supposed to take an interest in all of these
:19:24. > :19:29.things. The disaster was that it was not anyone's call responsibility, or
:19:30. > :19:33.main day job, to stay alert as to whether or not the banking system as
:19:34. > :19:36.a whole was being run in a safe manner. And so this April, a new
:19:37. > :19:46.system was set up to police the City. Most of the responsibly delays
:19:47. > :19:49.here, with the Bank of England, and its new Prudential Regulation
:19:50. > :19:53.Authority. And the Financial Services Authority has been replaced
:19:54. > :19:59.with the new Financial Conduct Authority. Can we go to the
:20:00. > :20:04.financial conduct authority, please? Canary Wharf, thank you. Here, it is
:20:05. > :20:07.all about whether the people in financial services are playing by
:20:08. > :20:13.the rules, in particular, how they treat their customers. This place
:20:14. > :20:16.has got new powers, like the ability to ban products it does not like, a
:20:17. > :20:20.new mandate to promote competition in the market, the concept being,
:20:21. > :20:25.more competition means a better market, plus the idea that a new
:20:26. > :20:32.organisation rings a whole new culture. Although these are the old
:20:33. > :20:37.offices of the FSA, so maybe not quite so new after all. It has also
:20:38. > :20:41.inherited the case of the Co-op bank and its disgraced former chairman
:20:42. > :20:44.the Reverend Paul Flowers. The SCA will be part of the investigation
:20:45. > :20:49.into what happened, which will probably involve looking at its own
:20:50. > :20:53.conduct. One member of the Parliamentary commission into
:20:54. > :20:59.banking wonders whether the new regulator, and its new boss, are up
:21:00. > :21:03.to it. I have always said, it is not the architecture which is the issue,
:21:04. > :21:07.it is the powers that the regulator has, and today, it does not seem to
:21:08. > :21:13.me as if there is any increase in that. And with the unfolding scandal
:21:14. > :21:20.at the Co-op, it feels like the new architecture for regulating the City
:21:21. > :21:23.is now facing its first big test. And the chief executive of the
:21:24. > :21:29.Financial Conduct Authority, the SCA, Martin Wheatley, joins me now.
:21:30. > :21:32.Welcome to The Sunday Politics. The failure of bank regulation was one
:21:33. > :21:38.of the clearest lessons of the crash in 2008, and yet two years later, in
:21:39. > :21:44.2010, Paul Flowers is allowed to become chairman of the Co-op - why
:21:45. > :21:48.have we still not got the regulation right? We have made a lot of changes
:21:49. > :21:52.since then. We have created a new regulator, as you know. At the time,
:21:53. > :21:56.we still had a process which allowed somebody to be appointed to a bank
:21:57. > :22:00.and they would go through a challenge, but in the case of Paul
:22:01. > :22:02.Flowers, there was no need for an additional challenge when he was
:22:03. > :22:09.appointed to chairman, because he was already on the board. But going
:22:10. > :22:14.from being on the board to becoming chairman, that is a big jump, and he
:22:15. > :22:18.only had one interview? That is why today, it would be different. But
:22:19. > :22:23.the truth is, that was the system at the time, the system which the FSA
:22:24. > :22:27.operated. He was challenged, we did challenge him, and we said, you do
:22:28. > :22:31.not have the right experience, but at the time, we would not have
:22:32. > :22:34.opposed the appointment. What we needed was additional representation
:22:35. > :22:39.of the board of people who did have banking experience. You can say that
:22:40. > :22:44.that was then and this is now, but up until April of this year, it was
:22:45. > :22:47.still the plan for the Co-op, under Mr Flowers, and despite being
:22:48. > :22:53.seriously wounded by the Britannia takeover, to take on 632 Lloyds
:22:54. > :22:57.branches. That was the Co-op's plan. They needed to pass our test
:22:58. > :23:01.as to whether we thought they were fit to do that, and frankly, they
:23:02. > :23:06.never passed that test. It was not the regulator that stopped them It
:23:07. > :23:10.was. We were constantly pushing back, saying, you have not got the
:23:11. > :23:12.capital, you have no got the systems, and ultimately, they
:23:13. > :23:18.withdrew, when they could not answer our questions. You were asking the
:23:19. > :23:23.right questions, I accept that, but all of the time, the politicians on
:23:24. > :23:27.all sides, they were pushing for it to happen, and I cannot find
:23:28. > :23:33.anywhere where the regulator said, look, this is just not going to
:23:34. > :23:36.happen. I cannot comment on what the politicians were doing, but I
:23:37. > :23:39.continue what we were doing, which was constantly asking the Co-op
:23:40. > :23:44.have you got the systems in place, have you got the people, have you
:23:45. > :23:48.got the capital? And they didn't. But it only came to a head when
:23:49. > :23:51.Lloyds started its own due diligence on the bank, and they discovered
:23:52. > :23:56.that it was impossible for them to take over the branches, it was not
:23:57. > :24:01.the regulator... In fairness, what we do is ask the questions, can you
:24:02. > :24:05.do this deal? And we kept pushing back, and we never frankly got
:24:06. > :24:12.delivered a business plan which we were happy to approve. Is the SCA
:24:13. > :24:23.going to launch its own inquiry into what happened? -- the FCA. The
:24:24. > :24:28.Chancellor has announced what will be a very broad inquiry. There are a
:24:29. > :24:33.number of specifics which we will be able to look at, relating to events
:24:34. > :24:37.over the last five years. Could there be a police investigation I
:24:38. > :24:41.think the police have already announced an investigation. I am
:24:42. > :24:45.talking about into the handling of the bank. It depends. There might
:24:46. > :24:54.be, if there is grim low activity, which we do not know yet. You worked
:24:55. > :25:01.at the FS eight, didn't you? I did. Some of those people who were signed
:25:02. > :25:07.off on the speedy promotion of Mr Flowers, are they now working
:25:08. > :25:10.there? Yes, we have some. I came to join the Financial Services
:25:11. > :25:16.Authority, to lead it into the creation of the new body, the SCA.
:25:17. > :25:27.We had people who were challenging and they did the job. There was not
:25:28. > :25:30.a requirement to approve the role as chairman. There was not even a
:25:31. > :25:35.requirement to interview at that stage. What we did do was to require
:25:36. > :25:47.that he was interviewed, and that the Co-op should get additional
:25:48. > :25:52.experience. One of the people from the old organisation, who signed up
:25:53. > :25:55.on the promotion of Mr Flowers to become chairman is now a
:25:56. > :26:02.nonexecutive director of the Co op, so how does that work? Welcome he
:26:03. > :26:05.was a senior adviser to our organisation, one of the people who
:26:06. > :26:10.made the challenges, and who said, you need more experience on your
:26:11. > :26:14.board. Subsequently he then went and joined the board. Surely that should
:26:15. > :26:19.not be allowed, the regulator and the regulated should not be like
:26:20. > :26:24.that. Well clearly, you need protection, but we have got to get
:26:25. > :26:27.good people in, and frankly, we want the industry to have good people in
:26:28. > :26:32.the industry, so there will be some movement between the regulator and
:26:33. > :26:35.industry. We all wonder whether you have the power or even the
:26:36. > :26:39.confidence to stand up if you look at all of the really bad bank
:26:40. > :26:43.decisions recently, politicians were behind them. It was Gordon Brown who
:26:44. > :26:48.pushed the disastrous merger of Lloyds and RBS. It was Alex Salmond
:26:49. > :26:53.who egged on RBS to buy the world. All three main parties wanted the
:26:54. > :26:57.Co-op to buy Britannia, even though they did not know the debt it would
:26:58. > :27:00.inherit, and all three wanted the Co-op to buy the Lloyds branches -
:27:01. > :27:06.how do you as a regulator stand up to that little concert party? Well,
:27:07. > :27:10.that political pressure exists, our job at the end of the day is to do a
:27:11. > :27:15.relatively technical job and say, does it stack up? And it didn't and
:27:16. > :27:18.we made that point time and time again to the Co-op board. They did
:27:19. > :27:22.not have a business case that we could approve. The bodies on left
:27:23. > :27:29.and right -- the politicians on left and right gave the Co-op special
:27:30. > :27:36.support. They may have done, but that was not you have made a warning
:27:37. > :27:40.about these payday lenders, but I think what most people would like to
:27:41. > :27:44.see is a limit put on the interest they can charge over a period of
:27:45. > :27:49.time - will you do that? We have got a whole set of powers for payday
:27:50. > :27:53.lenders. We will bring in some changes from April next year, and we
:27:54. > :27:56.will bring in further changes as we see necessary. Will you put a limit
:27:57. > :28:02.on the interest they can charge That is something we can study. You
:28:03. > :28:07.do not sound too keen on it? Well, there are a lot of changes we need
:28:08. > :28:10.to make. One change is limiting rollovers, limiting the use of
:28:11. > :28:15.continuous payment authorities. Simply jumping to one trigger would
:28:16. > :28:20.be a mistake. Finally, an issue which I think is becoming a growing
:28:21. > :28:24.concern, because the Government is thinking of subsidising them, 9 %
:28:25. > :28:29.mortgages are back - should we not be worried about that? I think we
:28:30. > :28:33.should if the market has the same experiences that we had back in 2007
:28:34. > :28:38.- oh wait. We are bringing a comprehensive package in under our
:28:39. > :28:42.mortgage market review, which will change how people lend and will put
:28:43. > :28:53.affordability back at the heart of lending decisions. -- 2007-08. You
:28:54. > :28:55.have not had your first big challenge yet, have you? We have
:28:56. > :29:04.many challenges. It was once called the battle of the
:29:05. > :29:06.mods and the rockers - the fight between David Cameron-style
:29:07. > :29:09.modernisers and old-style traditional Tories for the direction
:29:10. > :29:16.and soul of the Conservative Party. But have the mods given up on
:29:17. > :29:21.changing the brand? When David Cameron took over in 2005, he
:29:22. > :29:25.promoted himself as a new Tory leader. He said that hoodies need
:29:26. > :29:32.more love. He was talking about something called the big society. He
:29:33. > :29:36.told his party conference that it was time to that sunshine win the
:29:37. > :29:41.day. There was new emphasis on the environment, and an eye-catching
:29:42. > :29:46.trip to a Norwegian glacier to see first-hand, supposedly, the effects
:29:47. > :29:50.of global warming. This week, party modernise and Nick bone has said
:29:51. > :29:54.that the party is still seen as an old-fashioned monolith and hasn t
:29:55. > :30:03.done enough to improve its appeal. The Tories have put some reforms
:30:04. > :30:08.into practice, such as gay marriage, but they have put more into welfare
:30:09. > :30:12.reform band compassionate conservatism. David Cameron wants
:30:13. > :30:20.talked about leading the greenest government ever. Downing Street says
:30:21. > :30:27.that the quote in the Son is not recognised, get rid of the green
:30:28. > :30:30.crap. At this point in the programme we were expecting to hear from the
:30:31. > :30:32.Energy and Climate Change Minister, Greg Barker. Unfortunately, he has
:30:33. > :30:39.pulled out, with Downing Street saying it's for ""family reasons"".
:30:40. > :30:44.Make of that what you will. However, we won't be deterred. We're still
:30:45. > :30:47.doing the story, and we're joined by our very own mod and rocker - David
:30:48. > :30:53.Skelton of the think-tank Renewal, and Conservative MP Peter Bone.
:30:54. > :30:58.Welcome to you both. I'm glad your family is allowed you to come? David
:30:59. > :31:03.Skelton, getting rid of all the green crap, or words to that effect,
:31:04. > :31:06.that David Cameron has been saying. It is just a sign that Tory
:31:07. > :31:12.modernisation has been quietly buried. I do think that's right
:31:13. > :31:17.Modernisation is about reaching out to the voters, and the work to do
:31:18. > :31:23.that is now more relevant than ever. We got the biggest swing since 931,
:31:24. > :31:27.and the thing is we need to do more to reach out to voters in the North.
:31:28. > :31:36.We need to reach out to non-white voters, and show that the concerns
:31:37. > :31:40.of modern Britain and the concerns of ordinary people is something that
:31:41. > :31:44.we share. And what way will racking up electricity bills with green
:31:45. > :31:50.levies get you more votes in the North of England? We have to look at
:31:51. > :31:53.ways to reduce energy bills. The renewable energy directive doesn't
:31:54. > :32:00.do anything to help cut our emissions, but does decrease energy
:32:01. > :32:03.bills by ?45 a year. We should renegotiate that. That is a part of
:32:04. > :32:10.modernisation and doing what ordinarily people want. And old
:32:11. > :32:15.dinosaurs like you are just holding this modernisation process back I
:32:16. > :32:20.am very appreciative of covering on this programme. The Tory party has
:32:21. > :32:25.been reforming itself for more than 150 years. This idea of modern eyes
:32:26. > :32:32.a is just some invention. We are changing all the time. I'm nice and
:32:33. > :32:37.cuddly! So you are happy that the party made gay marriage almost a
:32:38. > :32:45.kind of symbol of its modernisation? Fine Mac the gay marriage was a free
:32:46. > :32:49.vote. David Cameron was recorded as a rebel there because more Tories
:32:50. > :32:53.voted against his position than ever before. It was said that this was a
:32:54. > :32:57.split between the old and young but it actually was a split between
:32:58. > :33:01.those who were religious and nonreligious. It is a
:33:02. > :33:09.misinterpretation of what happened. Is a modernisation in retreat? I
:33:10. > :33:14.think modernisation is an invention. Seven years ago, in my
:33:15. > :33:20.part of the world, we got three councillors elected, two were 8 and
:33:21. > :33:24.one was 21. A few months ago, a 25-year-old was chosen to fight
:33:25. > :33:30.Corby for the Conservative Party. He came from a comprehensive School. He
:33:31. > :33:36.was one of the youngest. The Tory party is moving on. So you found
:33:37. > :33:45.three young people? Hang on a minute. You can't get away with
:33:46. > :33:50.that. Three in one batch. Does modernisation exist? Modernisation
:33:51. > :33:53.is about watering our appeal and sharing our values are relevant to
:33:54. > :33:58.voters who haven't really thought about voting for us for decades now.
:33:59. > :34:02.Modernisation is about more than windmills and stuff, it is about
:34:03. > :34:09.boosting the life chances of the poorest, it is about putting better
:34:10. > :34:14.schools in poorer areas. It is also saying that modernisation and the
:34:15. > :34:19.Tory party... When has the Tory party been against making poorer
:34:20. > :34:23.people better off? Or against better schools? Do you think Mrs Thatcher
:34:24. > :34:27.was a moderniser when she won all those elections? The problem we have
:34:28. > :34:32.at the moment is that UKIP has grown-up. If we could get all of
:34:33. > :34:37.those people who vote UKIP to vote for us, we would get 47% of the
:34:38. > :34:42.vote. We don't need to worry about voters on the left. We need to worry
:34:43. > :34:50.about the voters in the north, those people who haven't voted for us for
:34:51. > :34:56.decades. Having an EU Referendum Bill is going to get people to
:34:57. > :35:00.vote. We have to reach out to voters, but not by some sort of
:35:01. > :35:06.London based in need. You have to broaden your base. I agree with you
:35:07. > :35:09.on that. We have to broaden our appeal, but this back to the future
:35:10. > :35:14.concept is not going to work. We need something that generally
:35:15. > :35:18.appeals to low and middle-income voters, and something that shows we
:35:19. > :35:25.genuinely care about the life chances of the poorest. Do you think
:35:26. > :35:31.that the people who vote UKIP don't support those aspirations? We are
:35:32. > :35:35.not doing enough to cut immigration. We don't have an EU Referendum Bill
:35:36. > :35:42.stop we have to get the centre right to vote for us again. Do that, and
:35:43. > :35:46.we have it. Tom Pursglove, the 5 euros, will be returned in Corby
:35:47. > :35:59.because we cannot win an election there. -- the 25-year-old. Whether
:36:00. > :36:05.you are moderniser or traditionalist, people, particularly
:36:06. > :36:14.in the North, see you as a bunch of rich men. And rich southerners. You
:36:15. > :36:17.are bunch of rich southerners. We need to do more to show that we are
:36:18. > :36:25.building on lifting the poorest out of the tax. We need to build more
:36:26. > :36:30.houses. There is a perception that the leadership at the moment is
:36:31. > :36:34.rich, and public school educated. What we have to do is get more
:36:35. > :36:40.people from state education into the top. You are going the other way at
:36:41. > :36:49.the moment. That is a fair criticism. Modernisers also say
:36:50. > :36:55.that. I went to a combo hedge of school as well. -- do a
:36:56. > :37:04.comprehensive school. We need to show that we are standing up for low
:37:05. > :37:08.income. Thank Q, both of you. You are watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:09. > :37:24.Coming up in just under 20 minutes, I
:37:25. > :37:28.Fuelling the local economy or heading for meltdown? What is the
:37:29. > :37:34.future for our nuclear power industry? With me this week Tom two
:37:35. > :37:39.electrifying politicians, Lisa Nandy, Labour MP for Wigan, and
:37:40. > :37:42.Baroness Susan Williams, newly appointed to the House of Lords and
:37:43. > :37:47.the former Conservative leader of Trafford Council. Lisa, let me pick
:37:48. > :37:54.up with you because you are shadow charities minister, which means you
:37:55. > :38:00.have some responsibility for Co`op as well. On the issue of Paul
:38:01. > :38:05.Flowers and Co`op how has it gone so badly wrong? It has been astonishing
:38:06. > :38:08.in the last few weeks. You have a Prime Minister who has presided over
:38:09. > :38:14.the near collapse of one of our those important financial
:38:15. > :38:19.institutions. Instead of answering questions about why his Chancellor
:38:20. > :38:25.was pushing so hard for the Co`op to take over 630 Lloyds TSB branches,
:38:26. > :38:29.which it fail to do, he is trying to smear the Labour Party with
:38:30. > :38:32.allegations about this bank. This is a Prime Minister focused on his
:38:33. > :38:37.party and not focused on the country. I think that is not worthy
:38:38. > :38:41.of that office. Why didn't Labour flag up concerns about Paul Flowers?
:38:42. > :38:47.Actually, the mail on Sunday revealed in its investigation back
:38:48. > :38:52.Paul Flowers had illegally been buying illegal drugs on the 17th of
:38:53. > :39:01.November. Paul Flowers was suspended from the Labour Party 24 hours
:39:02. > :39:05.later. The first time we heard about the allegations was before that
:39:06. > :39:09.because Mr Flowers had already been stopped from being in a Manchester
:39:10. > :39:14.'s charity because of questions over his expenses, and then he goes on to
:39:15. > :39:21.run a bank. Ed Miliband met with Paul Flowers just once at all, and
:39:22. > :39:26.as soon as those allegations... This is a Labour councillor. Paul Flowers
:39:27. > :39:30.resigned from Bradford Council previously, so this was not a Labour
:39:31. > :39:33.councillor at the time at which the mail on Sunday investigation came
:39:34. > :39:37.out, and as soon as it allegations came out he was suspended from the
:39:38. > :39:42.Labour Party. David Cameron, by contrast, has failed to answer
:39:43. > :39:48.questions about his Government's involvement in the near collapse of
:39:49. > :39:51.this financial institution. I want to have a look at what the Prime
:39:52. > :39:54.Minister said a prime ministers questions.
:39:55. > :39:59.Now we know all along they knew about his past. Why did they do
:40:00. > :40:05.nothing to bring to the attention of the authorities this man who has
:40:06. > :40:08.broken a bank? He has taken millions from tax exiles and tax avoidance.
:40:09. > :40:14.His party has never paid back.. Susan, pick up what Lisa has been
:40:15. > :40:19.saying, the allegation that David Cameron is playing politics with
:40:20. > :40:24.this. There is clearly a pattern of not only incompetence from Paul
:40:25. > :40:29.Flowers, but also questionable lifestyle as well, which has
:40:30. > :40:33.compounded the issue. So the Government clearly have a duty to
:40:34. > :40:39.investigate what has gone on with this man. That Lisa is saying that
:40:40. > :40:49.the Government is not looking at its own actions here. I think the
:40:50. > :40:52.Government's attempt to keep the cooperative going, last year or the
:40:53. > :40:59.year before, was the right thing to do, to keep a bank going. So I am
:41:00. > :41:03.trying to look at this from the point of view of the man, rather
:41:04. > :41:06.than the politics, and I just think there is a job to do here and any
:41:07. > :41:13.Government would have to do this job, to investigate what has clearly
:41:14. > :41:16.been a catalogue of incompetence and bad management along the way.
:41:17. > :41:24.Coupled with a drug album. Allegedly. Allegedly. Lisa, do you
:41:25. > :41:30.think the Co`op has been damaged? It is a Manchester organisation. That
:41:31. > :41:34.is the worst thing about this political smearing tactic that David
:41:35. > :41:39.Cameron has used. The Co`op is able the institution founded in Rochdale
:41:40. > :41:45.150 years ago. In the last year they have given thousands of people
:41:46. > :41:49.financial literacy skills and turned down financial investment that is
:41:50. > :41:52.unethical. It should be supported. We will move on because this week a
:41:53. > :41:58.report came out saying child poverty in Greater Manchester is as bad as
:41:59. > :42:01.at any time in the last 120 years. The Children's Society says it is
:42:02. > :42:05.among the worst in the country and this week launched a scheme to help
:42:06. > :42:12.former but teenagers with the help of a former X factor star.
:42:13. > :42:17.Thanks to the Ex`factor, she has made it into the charts. Now she is
:42:18. > :42:23.campaigning to help children in poverty. I saw how they are
:42:24. > :42:27.suffering, had they come to school with a dozen things going on back
:42:28. > :42:33.home... According to the children Society, 150,000 children in Greater
:42:34. > :42:37.Manchester live in poverty. 450 of them ran away. The school was
:42:38. > :42:45.sleeping rough until the charity stepped in. It helped my confidence
:42:46. > :42:50.loads. It was there for me. I can ring them up. This boy left home
:42:51. > :42:53.feeling unwanted. My dad's girlfriend was planning to move in
:42:54. > :42:58.and they were spending more time together. I was not spending that
:42:59. > :43:01.much time with my dad. The statistics highlight concerns and
:43:02. > :43:05.questions. An initiative is under way helping children who live in
:43:06. > :43:12.more full rubble areas. Local councils also have a role to play.
:43:13. > :43:16.For me it is one of the priorities. We have got to eradicate child
:43:17. > :43:23.poverty, to help people. To get young people on track, give them
:43:24. > :43:26.apprenticeships. Support them. And that kind of encouragement is what
:43:27. > :43:34.the children Society badly needs. This is about parenting, about
:43:35. > :43:36.families as a whole unit as well. We cannot necessarily all do that
:43:37. > :43:41.ourselves. It is about collaboration. Hope is that this new
:43:42. > :43:48.initiative will help change children's lives.
:43:49. > :43:55.And we are now joined from London. How much of your personal experience
:43:56. > :43:58.is inspiring you to get involved in this? Being from Manchester myself,
:43:59. > :44:04.I have witnessed the struggle amongst the young people. A lot of
:44:05. > :44:08.my peers growing up. So now I feel like I am in a position to raise
:44:09. > :44:13.awareness and do all that I can to help. That is what I am doing. The
:44:14. > :44:16.children are the future. Speaking of raising awareness, what are the
:44:17. > :44:22.challenges that you and the people who you were trying to help actually
:44:23. > :44:32.face? A lot of them face being alone, being neglected, just feeling
:44:33. > :44:36.almost like there is nobody there. And having the Children's Society
:44:37. > :44:44.help, you have got people to talk to, allowing their voices to be
:44:45. > :44:50.heard, almost been united. Can you put these problems down to poverty?
:44:51. > :44:55.That is the root cause? Definitely. If we all come together and join
:44:56. > :45:00.forces, I would feel like these are the top of issues that we will not
:45:01. > :45:08.have to deal with. So what would you most like to change? The key thing,
:45:09. > :45:11.I think, is allowing our young people to believe in themselves
:45:12. > :45:18.Giving them the support and the drive and just the extra power for
:45:19. > :45:22.them to feel comfortable in their environment to believe in
:45:23. > :45:29.themselves. You have been helping launch the Children's Hub. Will that
:45:30. > :45:35.make a difference? Definitely. I got a chance to meet the young people
:45:36. > :45:40.and see how the Children's Society Hub is helping them. A lot of them
:45:41. > :45:45.have said they do not feel alone any more. When they need somebody they
:45:46. > :45:50.can pick up the phone. Thank you for joining us and giving us a bit of
:45:51. > :45:54.the X Factor star power this week. Susan, if I can pick up with you.
:45:55. > :46:00.The Child poverty action group, the Institute for financial studies
:46:01. > :46:05.fiscal studies, says that the Government's cuts are making child
:46:06. > :46:09.poverty worse. How worried are you? When you talk about child poverty, I
:46:10. > :46:15.always think about child poverty in the sense of poverty of the whole
:46:16. > :46:20.family, that is affected by it. So it is things like warm homes, things
:46:21. > :46:25.like what your guest was talking about, giving children aspiration.
:46:26. > :46:31.It is also helping those families with the cost of living. All of
:46:32. > :46:35.which do not happen, these transformations do not happen
:46:36. > :46:44.overnight, and I think that some of the measures like taking people out
:46:45. > :46:49.of income tax, some of the free schools, and I know it is quite
:46:50. > :46:54.general, but I do think these things are a multitude of factors. Do you
:46:55. > :46:58.believe the reports that child poverty in Manchester is at its
:46:59. > :47:05.worst for 120 years? I do not dispute it, but I can understand it.
:47:06. > :47:11.We have had a tough few years, but I know now that doing things around
:47:12. > :47:15.income tax, about education, around fuel poverty, that is the weak topic
:47:16. > :47:23.of the week... Do you agree with that? I agree with a lot of that. I
:47:24. > :47:26.agree certainly that there are multiple factors causing children to
:47:27. > :47:30.have the stress and anxiety and typical livestock market but also it
:47:31. > :47:38.is how the Government is handling it? Where I disagree is that this is
:47:39. > :47:43.entirely avoidable. It is not just a disgrace. It is completely
:47:44. > :47:46.avoidable. So if this Government, for example, had chosen not to cut
:47:47. > :47:54.tax credits for working families in its recent budget, and chosen not to
:47:55. > :47:57.give a tax cut worth ?2000 a week to the country's millionaires, we would
:47:58. > :48:01.have been able to detect some of the poorer families. The other
:48:02. > :48:04.interesting thing happening in Greater Manchester is that if you
:48:05. > :48:08.look at child poverty rates in different parts of Greater
:48:09. > :48:15.Manchester, in areas like Moss side and we can, child poverty is going
:48:16. > :48:18.up. In areas like Trafford, child poverty has remained relatively
:48:19. > :48:23.stable. What that tells you is this Government is not just making unfair
:48:24. > :48:27.decisions about individual families, it is pursuing an economic strategy
:48:28. > :48:32.that has a disproportionate impact on areas that already suffer from
:48:33. > :48:36.deprivation. We are not only this together. I completely accept that
:48:37. > :48:41.there parts of Trafford that are very affluent, but also there are
:48:42. > :48:46.parts of Trafford that are amongst the purest communities in Greater
:48:47. > :48:52.Manchester, so... But my point is this, there are areas... Local
:48:53. > :49:01.authority... THEY TALK OVER EACH OTHER
:49:02. > :49:05.They have been hit hard by this Government's economic strategy of
:49:06. > :49:10.cutting the private sector... Season, respond quickly because I
:49:11. > :49:14.have to move on. There are not Government funding and policy
:49:15. > :49:20.decisions that have disproportionately disadvantaged
:49:21. > :49:23.Trafford. We do need to move on Did you know more people work in nuclear
:49:24. > :49:27.energy in the North West than any other part of the UK? It is
:49:28. > :49:31.increasingly on the agenda after ministers gave the go`ahead for the
:49:32. > :49:36.country's first new nuclear reactor in a generation at Hinkley Point in
:49:37. > :49:40.Somerset. Stuart Pollard has been investigating the future for the
:49:41. > :49:46.industry here. At Windscale, a new milestone nears
:49:47. > :49:51.completion, the first nuclear power station in the world... In the days
:49:52. > :49:55.when being green meant you were inexperienced or seasick, the
:49:56. > :49:59.Northwest pioneered a new world of nuclear power. 60 years on and this
:50:00. > :50:03.remains the nuclear industry's heartland. That is because half the
:50:04. > :50:07.jobs in the industry are in this region, so 25,000 people relying on
:50:08. > :50:11.nuclear to keep a roof over their heads as well as the rest of us
:50:12. > :50:15.relying on power stations like these to keep our lights on. But with
:50:16. > :50:20.plenty of other energy options including, as you can probably tell,
:50:21. > :50:27.wind power, is nuclear the future? Alan, we are deep inside the power
:50:28. > :50:31.station. How big is this site? It is the largest in the UK. 1200
:50:32. > :50:37.full`time people work on the site and we supply around 2.5 million
:50:38. > :50:42.homes. The future he is guaranteed Kindle 2023, when its second power
:50:43. > :50:47.plant is due to close. We are looking for at least a seven`year
:50:48. > :50:52.extension so we are looking towards 2030 and beyond. Is it was able to
:50:53. > :50:57.beyond that to any new buildings? There is a proposal that a power
:50:58. > :51:02.station can be built on the Heysham side. It will not happen in the near
:51:03. > :51:08.future but it is a possibility. That is good news for these graduates who
:51:09. > :51:12.are the future workforce. Is part of your training would likely to spend
:51:13. > :51:18.some time... When you were looking for a skilled job after university
:51:19. > :51:21.were there many options? Not really. There are not many options,
:51:22. > :51:26.especially for chemistry graduates. Without patient, I would rob the
:51:27. > :51:34.bleep be a long way from home in order to put my degree to good use.
:51:35. > :51:40.`` I would robber Bibi. But according to some, the risks of
:51:41. > :51:46.nuclear power remain and skilled graduates could be put to good use
:51:47. > :51:50.elsewhere. It is a dirty technology and whilst we appreciate the jobs it
:51:51. > :51:54.provides and it will for many years to come because decommissioning will
:51:55. > :52:00.take a long time, we think there are more jobs to be had in the
:52:01. > :52:03.renewables industry. It is not just about power stations like Heysham
:52:04. > :52:06.and Sellafield, it is also about places like this on the edge of
:52:07. > :52:13.Preston, the oldest producer in the world of nuclear fuels. From the
:52:14. > :52:17.Belgian Congo or containing uranium reaches the sprinkle factory... This
:52:18. > :52:26.week the modern buses were held to account with those `` by those with
:52:27. > :52:34.an interest in the site's work. Of future is based on fuel in this
:52:35. > :52:39.nuclear reactors. They will be closed in ten or 15 years. We need
:52:40. > :52:43.something else to take over. In Cumbria, the debate has moved to
:52:44. > :52:50.what to do with nuclear waste. Sid should it be buried under here? The
:52:51. > :52:53.county council said no and criticised when the Government
:52:54. > :53:05.afterwards gave the power to decide back to the two district councils.
:53:06. > :53:11.You cannot put the waste in this areas. It is unsafe. So from its
:53:12. > :53:14.creation to its disposal, the heated arguments around nuclear power are
:53:15. > :53:20.not going to run out of steam any time soon.
:53:21. > :53:26.We are joined by Peter Cranie, standing in next year's European
:53:27. > :53:31.elections for the Green Party. Nuclear power is popular in parts of
:53:32. > :53:35.the region. Why are you against it? It is an industry from the past and
:53:36. > :53:41.we need to look to the future. There are more jobs to be created and a
:53:42. > :53:44.more sustainable energy industry in the future. But what we have to
:53:45. > :53:47.start right now is with the energy hierarchy looking at saving people
:53:48. > :53:52.money on their bills by insulate homes. We are talking about... But I
:53:53. > :53:58.am asking what is wrong with nuclear? If we stop this cost, the
:53:59. > :54:03.guaranteed price the Government is looking at for the forthcoming years
:54:04. > :54:07.is effectively another subsidy of a building plant on top of the 2.
:54:08. > :54:13.you'll think that nuclear has already received. The second reason
:54:14. > :54:17.is we still have not found a way to deal with all of the waste that has
:54:18. > :54:20.already been produced. What you are doing is you need to look towards
:54:21. > :54:24.the future and right now, people's priority is affordable energy to
:54:25. > :54:29.heat their homes and our priority have to be getting those homes
:54:30. > :54:39.insulate it, cutting people's fuel bills, and reducing our total energy
:54:40. > :54:46.demand. But you do not think that nuclear produces carbon? It is not
:54:47. > :54:50.carbon free technology but what we need to do is get back to the
:54:51. > :54:54.emphasis, which is let's make people 's homes more affordable to heat,
:54:55. > :54:58.make sure that is where we focus our energy efficiency. And you are not
:54:59. > :55:03.happy with either the Conservative all the labour policies on this Is
:55:04. > :55:07.that right? The two are very similar in that they are backing nuclear
:55:08. > :55:10.option over the long term and if you want the genuine choice and
:55:11. > :55:15.difference there is only the Green Party that will stand against that,
:55:16. > :55:21.and after a recent conference the Liberal Democrats have backed it.
:55:22. > :55:27.David Cameron seems to be ditching his green credentials. Is not
:55:28. > :55:31.ditching them. Watering them down. We have just talked about child
:55:32. > :55:35.poverty and something very much linked to that is the cost of
:55:36. > :55:38.heating homes. I totally agree with you about insulating homes but if
:55:39. > :55:44.you are suggesting that the way around our energy crisis is to
:55:45. > :55:50.insulate homes, it really is quite naive. My view is that we need a
:55:51. > :55:55.broad range of energy sources, first to be more self`sufficient in this
:55:56. > :56:02.country, and secondly to stop the reliance on other sources of energy
:56:03. > :56:10.from foreign sources. And nuclear is one of them. If you want to call the
:56:11. > :56:13.IPPR naive and various other organisations that have said this is
:56:14. > :56:18.the way to do it, with green energy, then you may do so. We need to
:56:19. > :56:22.reduce energy demand because that will make bills more affordable I
:56:23. > :56:27.need to bring Lisa in. Labour did not do very much here, did they
:56:28. > :56:32.They did not commission any nuclear power. But they seem to be in favour
:56:33. > :56:37.of it. We did a huge amount on home insulation. We did a huge amount as
:56:38. > :56:45.well to open up different sorts of energy, like wind technology, for
:56:46. > :56:49.example. But nothing on nuclear We saw Portis `` we are supportive of
:56:50. > :56:53.what the Government has tried to do by striking a deal over nuclear
:56:54. > :56:56.power stations so there is a mix of sources of energy in this country
:56:57. > :57:01.but where we really are struggling to understand the Government is
:57:02. > :57:05.doing is that they, as Peter said, have negotiated a deal to fix the
:57:06. > :57:09.price of that energy cost with those energy companies. If they can do a
:57:10. > :57:13.deal with the energy companies of the cost of energy, why can't they
:57:14. > :57:18.do a deal that benefits consumers over the cost of their bills? But
:57:19. > :57:22.when you were in Government, why didn't you commission a new nuclear
:57:23. > :57:27.power station and get that right. I came into Parliament in 2010. I m
:57:28. > :57:31.talking about the Labour Party. Shore, and there were discussions
:57:32. > :57:38.with the energy companies. That isn't think I know from being
:57:39. > :57:41.outside the Government. I was working for the Children's Society
:57:42. > :57:45.at the time. There were negotiations with the power companies but there
:57:46. > :57:49.was strong focus on opening up new forms of technology like wind power.
:57:50. > :57:56.It is right to enslave people 's homes. But we are not opposing
:57:57. > :58:02.nuclear. We would like to see a mix. `` it is right to insulating people
:58:03. > :58:05.assess my poems. Lisa is saying a problem with the Government is you
:58:06. > :58:11.do not have a decent deal for taxpayers. Reducing energy bills is
:58:12. > :58:15.something that everybody is agreed on because they are becoming
:58:16. > :58:20.swingeing and the more that we ourselves sufficient in our energy
:58:21. > :58:24.sources, the less reliant we will be on other sources of energy. I wish,
:58:25. > :58:31.and you will go green over this that we had done this years ago It
:58:32. > :58:36.is not before time. To finish off, we also need to realise we are
:58:37. > :58:41.dealing with a privatised industry that has had ?4 billion of profit
:58:42. > :58:47.per year. Until we can get an energy system that is sustainable, then we
:58:48. > :58:53.need to... Thank you for giving us that. Time for the rest of the
:58:54. > :58:57.week's news with 60 Seconds. The mother of a Merseyside musician
:58:58. > :59:00.killed in a coach crash met the Transport Secretary this week.
:59:01. > :59:02.Frances Molloy wants the use of old tyres banned after her son died when
:59:03. > :59:05.one burst. Could you balance the books?
:59:06. > :59:13.Liverpool City Council created a computer app to ask how you'd make
:59:14. > :59:19.cuts of ?156 million. I started by trying to be fair and I have cut 10%
:59:20. > :59:22.of every service. We are still in budget.
:59:23. > :59:26.Child benefit on the Isle of Man is to be stopped for higher earners.
:59:27. > :59:28.The Manx Parliament voted in favour of scrapping payments to people
:59:29. > :59:31.earning ?90,000 and means`testing those on more than 60.
:59:32. > :59:35.Campaigners opposed to the fracking for shale gas set up camp in
:59:36. > :59:42.Salford. The Energy company IGas wants to start drilling there.
:59:43. > :59:46.People really care about this. And what's the the biggest town in
:59:47. > :59:49.the country without a train station? It's Skelmersdale ` but it might
:59:50. > :59:50.happily lose that distinction after the county council unveiled plans to
:59:51. > :00:03.upgrade its transport system. Next week we'll be hearing from the
:00:04. > :00:05.prize`winning six former who reckons his generation is being hit hardest
:00:06. > :00:13.the cuts. Time to thanks those people who want to cycle. We
:00:14. > :00:21.will be returning to this one. Thank you.
:00:22. > :00:27.A little bit of history was made at Prime Minister's Questions this
:00:28. > :00:30.week. A teensy tiny bit. It wasn't David Cameron accusing one MP of
:00:31. > :00:33.taking "mind-altering substances" - they're always accusing each other
:00:34. > :00:36.of doing that. No, it was the first time a Prime Minister used a live
:00:37. > :00:46.tweet sent from someone watching the session as ammunition at the
:00:47. > :00:50.dispatch box. Let's have a look We have had some interesting
:00:51. > :00:54.interventions from front edges past and present. I hope I can break
:00:55. > :00:59.records by explaining that a tweet has just come in from Tony McNulty,
:01:00. > :01:03.the former Labour security minister, saying that the public are
:01:04. > :01:08.desperate for a PM in waiting who speaks for them, not a Leader of the
:01:09. > :01:13.Opposition in dodging in partisan Westminster Village knock about So
:01:14. > :01:18.I would stay up with the tweets if you want to get on the right side of
:01:19. > :01:22.this one! We are working on how the Prime Minister managed to get that
:01:23. > :01:28.wheat in the first place. What did you think when you saw it being read
:01:29. > :01:33.out? I was certainly watching the Daily Politics. I almost fell off my
:01:34. > :01:38.chair! It was quite astonishing He didn't answer the question - he
:01:39. > :01:42.didn't do that the whole time. But I stand by what the tweets said. I
:01:43. > :01:48.have tweeted for a long time on PMQs. Normally I am praising Ed
:01:49. > :01:52.Miliband to the hilt, but no one announces that in Parliament!
:01:53. > :01:58.Because the Prime Minister picked up on what you said, it unleashed some
:01:59. > :02:02.attacks on you from the Labour side. It did, minor attacks from some very
:02:03. > :02:06.junior people. Most people were supportive of what I said. They took
:02:07. > :02:14.issue with the notion of not doing it until 12:30pm, when it wasn't
:02:15. > :02:18.available for the other side to use. Instant history, and instantly
:02:19. > :02:23.forgettable, I would say. Do you think you have started a bit of a
:02:24. > :02:29.trend? I hope not, because the dumbing down of PMQs is already on
:02:30. > :02:37.its way. Most people tweet like mad through PMQs! Is a measure of how
:02:38. > :02:41.post-modern we have become, we have journalists tweeting about someone
:02:42. > :02:45.talking about a tweet. That is the level of British politics. I am
:02:46. > :02:49.horrified by this development. The whole of modern life has become
:02:50. > :02:57.about observing people -- people observing themselves doing things.
:02:58. > :03:01.Do we know what happened? Somebody is monitoring the tweets on behalf
:03:02. > :03:06.of the Prime Minister or the Tory party. They see Tony's tweet. They
:03:07. > :03:10.then print it out and give it to him? There was a suggestion that
:03:11. > :03:20.Michael Goves had spotted it, but Craig Oliver from the BBC had this
:03:21. > :03:25.great sort of... Craig Oliver was holding up his iPad to take pictures
:03:26. > :03:29.of the Prime Minister, which he then tweeted, from the Prime Minister.
:03:30. > :03:33.People will now be tweeting in the hope that they will be quoted by the
:03:34. > :03:39.Prime Minister, or the Leader of the Opposition. I wasn't doing that I'm
:03:40. > :03:46.just talking about the monster you have unleashed! I hope it dies a
:03:47. > :03:51.miserable death. I think Tony is a good analysis -- a good analyst of
:03:52. > :04:03.PMQs on Twitter. Moving onto the Co-op. You were a Co-op-backed MP,
:04:04. > :04:08.white you? I was a Co-op party member. There are two issues here
:04:09. > :04:13.about the Co-op and the Labour Party. All the new music suggests
:04:14. > :04:18.that the Co-op will now have to start pulling back from lending or
:04:19. > :04:21.donating to the Labour Party, which, at a time when Mr Miliband is going
:04:22. > :04:26.through changes that are going to cut of the union funds, it seems
:04:27. > :04:30.quite dangerous. There are three things going on. There's the
:04:31. > :04:34.relationship that the party has politically with the Co-op party,
:04:35. > :04:41.there is the commercial relationship you referred to, and then there is
:04:42. > :04:45.this enquiry into the comings and goings of Flowers and everybody
:04:46. > :04:51.else. The Tories, at their peril, will mix the three up. There's a lot
:04:52. > :04:57.of things going on with a bang. Labour has some issues around
:04:58. > :05:03.funding generally, and they are potentially exacerbated by the Co-op
:05:04. > :05:10.issue. The Labour Party gets soft loans from the Co-op bank, and it
:05:11. > :05:15.gets donations. ?800,000 last year. Ed Balls got about ?50,000 for his
:05:16. > :05:18.private office. You get the feeling, given the state of the Co-operative
:05:19. > :05:25.Bank now, that that money could dry up. We will see. There's lots of
:05:26. > :05:28.speculation in the papers today At the core, the relationship between
:05:29. > :05:33.the Co-op party and the Labour Party is a proud one, and a legitimate
:05:34. > :05:39.one. I don't think others always understand that. Here is an even
:05:40. > :05:46.bigger issue. Is it not possible that the Co-op bank will cease to
:05:47. > :05:56.exist in any meaningful way as a Co-op bank? Is the bane out means it
:05:57. > :06:03.is 70% owned -- the bail out means that it is 70% owned, or 35% going
:06:04. > :06:08.to a hedge fund, I think I read Yes, there is a move from the
:06:09. > :06:15.mutualism of the Co-op. But don t confuse the Co-op bank with the
:06:16. > :06:22.Co-op Group. Others have done that. I haven't. Here's the rub. The soft
:06:23. > :06:35.loans that Labour gets. They got ?1.2 million from this. And 2.4
:06:36. > :06:39.million. They are secured against future union membership fees of the
:06:40. > :06:44.party. What is Mr Miliband doing? He is trying to end that? You have this
:06:45. > :06:51.very difficult confluence of events, which is, could these wonderful soft
:06:52. > :06:55.loans that Labour has had from the Co-op, could they be going? And
:06:56. > :07:00.these union reforms, where Ed Miliband is trying to create a link
:07:01. > :07:04.between individuals and donations to the Labour Party... Clearly, there
:07:05. > :07:08.could be real financial difficulties here. The government needs to be
:07:09. > :07:11.careful, because George Osborne launched one of his classic
:07:12. > :07:16.blunderbuss operations this week, which is that the Labour Party is to
:07:17. > :07:25.blame for Paul Flowers' private life. No, it's not. And that all the
:07:26. > :07:30.problems, essentially... Look at what George Osborne was doing in
:07:31. > :07:33.Europe. He was trying to change the capital requirement rules that would
:07:34. > :07:37.make it easier for the Co-op to take over Lloyd's. If there is to be a
:07:38. > :07:43.big investigation, George Osborne needs to be careful of what he
:07:44. > :07:46.wishes for. This is another example of the Westminster consensus. All of
:07:47. > :07:50.the Westminster parties were in favour of the Britannia takeover.
:07:51. > :07:55.This is how the Co-op ended up with all this toxic rubbish on its
:07:56. > :08:00.balance sheet. All the major parties were in favour of going to get the
:08:01. > :08:07.Lloyds branches. The Tories tried to outdo Labour in being more
:08:08. > :08:13.pro-Co-op. There was nobody in Westminster saying, hold on, this
:08:14. > :08:16.doesn't work. It is like the financial bubble all over again
:08:17. > :08:21.Everyone was in favour of that at the time. I think there is no
:08:22. > :08:25.evidence so far that the storm is cutting through to the average
:08:26. > :08:30.voter. If I were Ed Miliband, I would let it die a natural death. I
:08:31. > :08:35.would not write to an editorial column for a national newspaper on a
:08:36. > :08:39.Sunday. That keeps the issue alive, and it makes him look oversensitive
:08:40. > :08:47.and much better at dishing it out than taking it. I agree about that.
:08:48. > :08:55.The Labour press team tweeted this week saying that it was a new low
:08:56. > :09:03.for the times. And this was re-tweeted by Ed Miliband. It isn't
:09:04. > :09:08.a great press attitude. It is very Moni. Bill Clinton went out there
:09:09. > :09:13.and fought and made the case. So did Tony Blair. If you just say, they
:09:14. > :09:18.are being horrible to us, it looks pathetic. And it will cut through on
:09:19. > :09:25.Osborne and the financial dimensional is, not political. I
:09:26. > :09:33.shall tweet that later! While we have been talking, Mr Miliband has
:09:34. > :09:37.been on Desert Island Discs. He might still be on it. Let's have a
:09:38. > :09:55.listen to what he had to say. # Take on me, take me on.
:09:56. > :09:59.# And threw it all, she offers me protection.
:10:00. > :10:22.# A lot of love and affection. # Whether I'm right or wrong #.
:10:23. > :10:27.# Je Ne Regrette Rien. #. Obviously, that was the music that
:10:28. > :10:32.Ed Miliband chose. Who thought - you would have thought he would
:10:33. > :10:43.choose Norman Lamont's theme tune! He chose Jerusalem... He has no
:10:44. > :10:54.classical background at all. He had no Beethoven, no Elgar. David
:10:55. > :11:05.Cameron had Mendelssohn. And Ernie, the fastest Notman in the West. --
:11:06. > :11:11.fastest milkman. Tony Blair chose the theme tune to a movie. Tony
:11:12. > :11:20.Blair's list was chosen by young staffers in his office. It
:11:21. > :11:25.absolutely was. Tony Blair's list was chosen by staff. The Ed Miliband
:11:26. > :11:31.this was clearly chosen by himself, because who would allow politician
:11:32. > :11:39.to go out there and say that they like Aha. I am the same age as Ed
:11:40. > :11:50.Miliband, and of course he likes Aha. That was the tumour was played
:11:51. > :11:58.in the 80s. Sweet Caroline. It is Angels by Robbie Williams. I was
:11:59. > :12:02.14-year-old girl when that came out. I thought Angels was the staple of
:12:03. > :12:09.hen nights and chucking out time in pubs. The really good thing about
:12:10. > :12:15.his list is that the Smiths to not appear. The Smiths were all over
:12:16. > :12:20.David Cameron's list. The absolutely miserable music of Morris he was not
:12:21. > :12:28.there. What was his luxury? And Indian takeaway! Again, chosen for
:12:29. > :12:37.political reasons. I would agree with the panel about Aha, but I
:12:38. > :12:42.would expect -- I would respect his right to choose. Have you been on
:12:43. > :12:46.Desert Island Discs? I have. It took me three weeks to choose the music.
:12:47. > :12:51.It was the most difficult decision in my life. What was the most
:12:52. > :12:56.embarrassing thing you chose? I didn't choose anything embarrassing.
:12:57. > :13:09.I chose Beethoven, Elgar, and some proper modern jazz. Anything from
:13:10. > :13:14.the modern era? Pet Shop Boys. That's all for today. The Daily
:13:15. > :13:17.Politics will be on BBC Two at lunchtime every day next week, and
:13:18. > :13:20.we'll be back here on BBC One at 11am next week. My luxury, by the
:13:21. > :13:22.way, was a wind-up radio! Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday
:13:23. > :13:29.Politics.