:00:36. > :00:44.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. George Osborne
:00:45. > :00:48.announces a ?50 cut to annual household energy bills. We'll talk
:00:49. > :00:51.to Lib Dem president Tim Farron ahead of the Chancellor's mini
:00:52. > :00:55.budget this week. Net immigration is up for the first
:00:56. > :01:00.time in two years. Labour and the Tories say they want to bring it
:01:01. > :01:10.down, but how? Shadow Home Secretary Yvette Cooper joins us for the
:01:11. > :01:13.Sunday Interview. The harder you shake the pack, the easier it will
:01:14. > :01:17.be for some cornflakes to get to the top. The Mayor of London says
:01:18. > :01:18.inequality and greed are essential to spur economic activity. The
:01:19. > :01:28.speech And in the north`west, the face`off
:01:29. > :01:30.over fracking. In the last generation,
:01:31. > :01:32.accepts the housing situation in the capital is now a crisis. Another
:01:33. > :01:44.week, another strategy? Can this one deliver?
:01:45. > :01:47.And with me throughout today's programme, well, we've shaken the
:01:48. > :01:53.packet and look who's risen to the top. Or did we open it at the
:01:54. > :01:56.bottom? Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates. All three will be
:01:57. > :02:06.tweeting throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. So, after
:02:07. > :02:08.weeks in which Ed Miliband's promise to freeze energy prices has set the
:02:09. > :02:11.Westminster agenda, the Coalition Government is finally coming up with
:02:12. > :02:14.its answer. This morning the Chancellor George Osborne explained
:02:15. > :02:17.how he plans to cut household energy bills by an average of fifty quid.
:02:18. > :02:21.What we're going to do is roll back the levees that are placed by
:02:22. > :02:27.government on people's electricity bills. This will mean that for the
:02:28. > :02:32.average bill payer, they will have ?50 of those electricity and gas
:02:33. > :02:37.bills. That will help families. We are doing it in the way that
:02:38. > :02:40.government can do it. We are controlling the cost that families
:02:41. > :02:44.incurred because of government policies. We are doing it in a way
:02:45. > :02:48.that will not damage the environment or reduce our commitment to dealing
:02:49. > :02:53.with climate change. We will not produce commit men to helping
:02:54. > :02:59.low-income families with the cost of living. Janan, we are finally seeing
:03:00. > :03:04.the coalition begin to play its hand in response to the Ed Miliband
:03:05. > :03:06.freeze? They have been trying to respond for almost ten weeks and
:03:07. > :03:13.older responses have been quite fiddly. We are going to take a bit
:03:14. > :03:17.of tax year, put it onto general taxation, have a conversation with
:03:18. > :03:22.the energy companies, engineered a rebate of some kind, this is not
:03:23. > :03:27.very vivid. The advantage of the idea that they have announced
:03:28. > :03:33.overnight is that it is clear and it has a nice round figure attached to
:03:34. > :03:39.it, ?50. The chief of staff of President Obama, he said, if you are
:03:40. > :03:46.explaining, you're losing. The genius of this idea is that it does
:03:47. > :03:50.not require explanation. He would not drawn this morning on what
:03:51. > :03:53.agreement he had with the energy companies, and whether this would
:03:54. > :03:58.fall through to the bottom of the bill, but the way he spoke, saying,
:03:59. > :04:02.I am not going to pre-empt what the energy companies say, that suggests
:04:03. > :04:09.he has something up his sleeve. Yes, I thought so. The energy companies
:04:10. > :04:14.have made this so badly for so long. It would be awful if he announced
:04:15. > :04:18.this and the energy companies said, we are going to keep this money for
:04:19. > :04:22.ourselves. I do not think he is that stupid. The energy companies have an
:04:23. > :04:28.incentive to go along with this don't they? My worry is that I am
:04:29. > :04:34.not sure how much it will be within the opinion polls. I think people
:04:35. > :04:39.might expect this now, it is not a new thing, it is not an exciting
:04:40. > :04:45.thing. Say in the markets, they may have priced the ten already. If by
:04:46. > :04:51.Thursday of this week, he is able to say, I have a ?50 cut coming to your
:04:52. > :04:54.bill. The energy companies have guaranteed that this will fall
:04:55. > :04:59.through onto your energy bill, and they have indicated to me that they
:05:00. > :05:06.themselves will not put up energy prices through 2014, has he shot the
:05:07. > :05:10.Ed Miliband Fox? I think he has a couple of challenges. It is still
:05:11. > :05:14.very hard. This is an answer for the next 12 months but did is no chance
:05:15. > :05:18.announced that Labour will stop saying they are going to freeze
:05:19. > :05:23.prices in the next Parliament. He will say, I have not just frozen
:05:24. > :05:28.them, I have done that as well and I have cut them. When people look at
:05:29. > :05:32.their energy bills, they are going up by more than ?50. This is a
:05:33. > :05:40.reduction in the amount that they are going up overall. Year on 0
:05:41. > :05:47.will be for George Osborne. He will have to come up with something this
:05:48. > :05:50.time next year. The detail in the Sunday papers reveals that George
:05:51. > :05:55.Osborne is trying to get the energy companies to put on bills that 50
:05:56. > :06:00.has been knocked off your bill because of a reduction by the
:06:01. > :06:05.government. He is trying to get the energy companies to do his political
:06:06. > :06:08.bidding for him. It will be interesting to see if they go along
:06:09. > :06:13.with that, because then we will know how cross the arm with Ed Miliband.
:06:14. > :06:17.Let's get another perspective. Joining me now from Kendal in the
:06:18. > :06:23.Lake District is the president of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.
:06:24. > :06:30.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Good morning. Let me ask you this, the
:06:31. > :06:34.coalition is rowing back on green taxes, I do comfortable with that or
:06:35. > :06:39.is it something else you will rebel against? I am very comfortable with
:06:40. > :06:45.the fact we are protecting for the money is going. I am open to where
:06:46. > :06:50.the money comes from. The notion that we should stop insulating the
:06:51. > :06:54.homes of elderly people or stop investing in British manufacturing
:06:55. > :06:58.in terms of green industry, that is something that I resolutely oppose,
:06:59. > :07:02.but I am pleased that the funding will be made available for all that.
:07:03. > :07:07.You cannot ignore the fact that for a whole range of reasons, mostly
:07:08. > :07:12.down to the actions of the energy companies, you have prices that are
:07:13. > :07:18.shooting up and affecting lots of people, making life hard. You cannot
:07:19. > :07:23.ignore that. If we fund the installation of homes for older
:07:24. > :07:27.people and others, if we protect British manufacturing jobs, and
:07:28. > :07:33.raise the money through general taxation, I am comfortable with
:07:34. > :07:38.that. It is not clear that is going to happen. It looks like the
:07:39. > :07:41.eco-scheme, whereby the energy companies pay for the installation
:07:42. > :07:45.of those on below-average incomes, they will spin that out over four
:07:46. > :07:51.years, not two years, and one estimate is that that will cost
:07:52. > :07:56.10,000 jobs. You're always boasting about your commitment to green jobs,
:07:57. > :08:03.how do square that? I do not believe that. The roll-out will be longer.
:08:04. > :08:06.The number of houses reached will be greater and that is a good thing. My
:08:07. > :08:15.take is that it will not affect the number of jobs. People talk about
:08:16. > :08:18.green levies. There has been disparaging language about that sort
:08:19. > :08:25.of thing. There are 2 million people in this country in the lowest income
:08:26. > :08:33.families and they get ?230 off their energy bills because of what isn't
:08:34. > :08:39.-- because of what is disparaging the refer to as green stuff, shall
:08:40. > :08:45.we call it. There will be more properties covered. We both know
:08:46. > :08:51.that your party is being pushed into this by the Tories. You would not be
:08:52. > :08:54.doing this off your own bad. You are in coalition with people who have
:08:55. > :09:08.jettisoned their green Prudential is? -- credentials. You have made my
:09:09. > :09:11.point quite well. David Cameron s panicked response to this over the
:09:12. > :09:17.last few months was to ditch all the green stuff. It has been a job to
:09:18. > :09:22.make sure that we hold him to his pledges and the green cord of this
:09:23. > :09:24.government. That is why we are not scrapping the investment, we are
:09:25. > :09:33.making sure it is funded from general taxation. I am talking to
:09:34. > :09:37.you from Kendal. Lots of people struggle to pay their energy bills.
:09:38. > :09:40.But all these things pale into insignificance compared to the
:09:41. > :09:45.threat of climate change and we must hold the Prime Minister to account
:09:46. > :09:49.on this issue. Argue reconciled to the idea that as long as you're in
:09:50. > :09:57.coalition with the Tories you will never get a mansion tax? I am not
:09:58. > :10:00.reconciled to it. We are trying to give off other tax cut to the lowest
:10:01. > :10:06.income people. What about the mansion tax? That would be
:10:07. > :10:11.potentially paid for by another view source of finance. That would be
:10:12. > :10:15.that the wealthy... We know that is what you want, but you're not going
:10:16. > :10:21.to get that? We will keep fighting for it. It is extremely important.
:10:22. > :10:31.We can show where we will get the money from. I know that is the
:10:32. > :10:37.adamant. That is not what I asked you. Ed Balls and Labour run in
:10:38. > :10:41.favour of a mansion tax, have you talked to them about it? The honest
:10:42. > :10:45.answer is I have not. It is interesting that they have come
:10:46. > :10:55.round to supporting our policy having rejected it in power. So if
:10:56. > :10:59.Labour was the largest party in parliament but not in power, you
:11:00. > :11:04.would have no problem agreeing with a mansion tax as part of the deal?
:11:05. > :11:08.If the arithmetic falls in that way and that is the will of the British
:11:09. > :11:15.people, fear taxes on those who are wealthiest, stuff that is fear,
:11:16. > :11:18.which includes wealth taxes, in order to fund more reductions for
:11:19. > :11:24.those people on lowest incomes, that is the sort of thing that we might
:11:25. > :11:31.reach agreement on. You voted with Labour on the spare room subsidy.
:11:32. > :11:38.Again, that would be job done in any future coalition talks with Labour,
:11:39. > :11:42.correct? I take the view that the spare room subsidy, whilst entirely
:11:43. > :11:48.fail in principle, in practice it has caused immense hardship. I want
:11:49. > :11:53.to see that changed. There are many people in government to share my
:11:54. > :11:57.view on that. So does Labour. The problem was largely caused Labour
:11:58. > :12:04.because they oversaw an increase in housing costs both 3.5 times while
:12:05. > :12:08.they were in power. The government was forced into a position to tidy
:12:09. > :12:20.up an appalling mess that Labour left. You voted with Labour against
:12:21. > :12:25.it, and also, you want... No, I voted with the party conference
:12:26. > :12:37.Let's not dance on the head of the ten. Maybe they voted with me. - on
:12:38. > :12:43.the head of a pin. You are also in favour of a 50% top rate of income
:12:44. > :12:47.tax, so you and Labour are that one there as well? No, I take the view
:12:48. > :12:54.that the top rate of income tax is a fluid thing. All taxation levels are
:12:55. > :13:00.temporary. Nick Clegg said that when the 50p rate came down to 45, that
:13:01. > :13:05.was a rather foolish price tag George Osborne asked for in return
:13:06. > :13:09.for as increasing the threshold and letting several million people out
:13:10. > :13:16.of paying income tax at the bottom. So you agree with Labour? In favour
:13:17. > :13:20.of rising the tax to 50p. I take the view that we should keep our minds
:13:21. > :13:24.open on that. It is not the income tax level that bothers me, it is
:13:25. > :13:30.whether the wealthy pay their fresh air. If that can be done through
:13:31. > :13:41.other taxes, then that is something that I am happy with. -- their fair
:13:42. > :13:46.share. Given your position on the top rate of tax, on the spare room
:13:47. > :13:51.subsidy, how does the prospect of another five years of coalition with
:13:52. > :13:57.the Tories strike you? The answer is, you react with whatever you have
:13:58. > :14:02.about you to what the electorate hand you. Whatever happens after the
:14:03. > :14:10.next election, you have got to respect the will of the people. Yes,
:14:11. > :14:15.but how do you feel about it? We know about this, I am asking for
:14:16. > :14:18.your feeling. Does your heart left or does your heart fall at the
:14:19. > :14:24.prospect of another five years with the Tories? My heart would always
:14:25. > :14:29.follow the prospect of anything other than a majority of Liberal
:14:30. > :14:33.Democrat government. Your heart must be permanently in your shoes then.
:14:34. > :14:38.Something like that, but when all is said and done, we accept the will of
:14:39. > :14:44.the electorate. When you stand for election, you have got to put up
:14:45. > :14:49.with what the electorate say. I have not found coalition as difficult as
:14:50. > :14:53.you might suggest. It is about people who have to disagree and
:14:54. > :14:56.agree to differ. You work with people in your daily life that you
:14:57. > :15:02.disagree with. It is what grown ups do. A lot of people in your party
:15:03. > :15:07.think that your positioning yourself to be the left-wing candidate in a
:15:08. > :15:14.post-Nick Clegg leadership contest. They think it is blatant
:15:15. > :15:27.manoeuvring. One senior figure says, this is about you. Which bit of the
:15:28. > :15:34.sanctimonious, treacherous little man is there not to like? What can I
:15:35. > :15:37.see in response to that. My job is to promote the Liberal Democrats. I
:15:38. > :15:48.have to do my best to consider what I'd defend to be right. By and
:15:49. > :15:52.large, my position as an MP in the Lake District, but also as the
:15:53. > :15:57.president of the party, is to reflect the will of people outside
:15:58. > :16:03.the Westminster village. That is the important thing to do. Thank you for
:16:04. > :16:07.joining us. David Cameron has said he wants to get it down to the tens
:16:08. > :16:10.of thousands, Ed Miliband has admitted New Labour "got it wrong",
:16:11. > :16:14.and Nick Clegg wants to be "zero-tolerant towards abuse". Yes,
:16:15. > :16:16.immigration is back on the political agenda, with figures released
:16:17. > :16:20.earlier this week showing that net migration is on the rise for the
:16:21. > :16:23.first time in two years. And that's not the only reason politicians are
:16:24. > :16:28.talking about it again. The issue of immigration has come
:16:29. > :16:32.into sharp focus because of concerns about the number of remaining ins
:16:33. > :16:37.and Bulgarians that can come to the UK next year. EU citizenship grants
:16:38. > :16:43.the right to free movement within the EU. But when Bulgaria and
:16:44. > :16:46.Romania joined in 2007, the government took up its right to
:16:47. > :16:56.apply temporary restrictions on movement. They must be lifted
:16:57. > :16:56.apply temporary restrictions on end of this year. According to the
:16:57. > :17:01.2011 census, about one eyed 1 million of the population in England
:17:02. > :17:06.and Wales is made up of people from countries who joined the EU in 004.
:17:07. > :17:12.The government has played down expectations that the skill of
:17:13. > :17:15.migration could be repeated. This week David Cameron announced new
:17:16. > :17:19.restrictions on the ability of EU migrants to claim benefits. That was
:17:20. > :17:30.two, send a message. That prompted criticism is that the UK risks being
:17:31. > :17:37.seen as a nasty country. Yvette Cooper joins me now for the Sunday
:17:38. > :17:40.interview. Welcome to the Sunday Politics, Yvette Cooper. You
:17:41. > :17:45.criticised the coalition for not acting sooner on immigration from
:17:46. > :17:49.Romania and Bulgaria but the timetable for the unrestricted
:17:50. > :17:53.arrival in January was agreed under Labour many years ago, and given the
:17:54. > :17:56.battle that you had with the Polish and the Hungarians, what
:17:57. > :18:00.preparations did you make in power? We think that we should learn from
:18:01. > :18:06.some of the things that happened with migration. It would have been
:18:07. > :18:10.better to have transitional controls in place and look at the impact of
:18:11. > :18:14.what happened. But what preparations did you make in power? We set out a
:18:15. > :18:20.series of measures that the Government still had time to bring
:18:21. > :18:24.in. It is important that this should be a calm and measured debate. There
:18:25. > :18:29.was time to bring in measures around benefit restrictions, for example,
:18:30. > :18:32.and looking at the impact on the labour market, to make sure you do
:18:33. > :18:38.not have exploitation of cheap migrant Labour which is bad for
:18:39. > :18:42.everyone. I know that but I have asked you before and I am asking
:18:43. > :18:46.again, what did you do? We got things wrong in Government. I
:18:47. > :18:53.understand that I am not arguing. You are criticising them not
:18:54. > :18:59.preparing, a legitimate criticism, but what did you do in power? Well,
:19:00. > :19:04.I did think we did enough. Did you do anything? We signed the agency
:19:05. > :19:10.workers directive but too slowly. We needed measures like that. We did
:19:11. > :19:14.support things like the social chapter and the minimum wage, but I
:19:15. > :19:19.have said before that we did not do enough and that is why we
:19:20. > :19:23.recommended the measures in March. I understand that is what you did in
:19:24. > :19:28.opposition and I take that. I put the general point to you that given
:19:29. > :19:33.your failure to introduce controls on the countries that joined in
:19:34. > :19:37.2004, alone among the major EU economies we did that, should we not
:19:38. > :19:42.keep an embarrassed silence on these matters? You have no credibility. I
:19:43. > :19:45.think you have got to talk about immigration. One of the things we
:19:46. > :19:48.did not do in Government was discussed immigration and the
:19:49. > :19:56.concerns people have and the long-term benefits that we know have
:19:57. > :19:58.come from people who have come to Britain over many generations
:19:59. > :20:01.contributing to Britain and having a big impact. I think we recognise
:20:02. > :20:05.that there are things that we did wrong, but it would be irresponsible
:20:06. > :20:10.for us not to join the debate and suggest sensible, practical measures
:20:11. > :20:14.that you can introduce now to address the concerns that people
:20:15. > :20:17.have, but also make sure that the system is fair and managed.
:20:18. > :20:21.Immigration is important to Britain but it does have to be controlled
:20:22. > :20:25.and managed in the right way. Let's remind ourselves of your record on
:20:26. > :20:31.immigration. The chart you did not consult when in power. This is total
:20:32. > :20:34.net migration per year under Labour. 2.2 million of net rise in
:20:35. > :20:46.migration, more than the population of Birmingham, you proud of that? --
:20:47. > :20:49.twice the population. Are you proud of that or apologising for it? We
:20:50. > :20:55.set the pace of immigration was too fat and the level was too high and
:20:56. > :21:00.it is right to bring migration down. So you think that was wrong?
:21:01. > :21:04.Overruled have been huge benefits from people that have come to
:21:05. > :21:10.Britain and built our biggest businesses. -- overall. They have
:21:11. > :21:14.become Olympic medal winners. But because the pace was too fast, that
:21:15. > :21:18.has had an impact. That was because of the lack of transitional controls
:21:19. > :21:22.from Eastern Europe and it is why we should learn from that and have
:21:23. > :21:28.sensible measures in place now, as part of what has got to be a calm
:21:29. > :21:33.debate. These are net migration figures. They don't often show the
:21:34. > :21:37.full figure. These are the immigration figures coming in. What
:21:38. > :21:42.that chart shows is that in terms of the gross number coming into this
:21:43. > :21:48.country, from the year 2000, it was half a million a year under Labour.
:21:49. > :21:53.Rising to 600,000 by the time you were out of power. A lot of people
:21:54. > :21:58.coming into these crowded islands, particularly since most of them come
:21:59. > :22:03.to London and the South East. Was that intentional? Was that out of
:22:04. > :22:09.control? Is that what you are now apologising for? What we said was
:22:10. > :22:12.that the Government got the figures wrong on the migration from Eastern
:22:13. > :22:16.Europe. If you remember particularly there was the issue of what happened
:22:17. > :22:21.with not having transitional controls in place. The Government
:22:22. > :22:26.didn't expect the number of people coming to the country to be the way
:22:27. > :22:30.it was. And so obviously mistakes were made. We have recognised that.
:22:31. > :22:34.We have also got to recognise that this is something that has happened
:22:35. > :22:39.in countries all over the world We travel and trade far more than ever.
:22:40. > :22:43.We have an increasingly globalised economy. Other European countries
:22:44. > :22:47.have been affected in the same way, and America, and other developing
:22:48. > :22:52.countries affected in the same way by the scale of migration. I am
:22:53. > :22:57.trying to work out whether the numbers were intentional or if you
:22:58. > :23:00.lost control. The key thing that we have said many times and I have
:23:01. > :23:04.already said it to you many times, Andrew, that we should have a
:23:05. > :23:07.transitional controls in place on Eastern Europe. I think that would
:23:08. > :23:13.have had an impact on them level of migration. We also should have
:23:14. > :23:16.brought in the points -based system earlier. We did bring that in
:23:17. > :23:21.towards the end and it did restrict the level of low skilled migration
:23:22. > :23:24.because there are different kinds of migration. University students
:23:25. > :23:28.coming to Britain brings in billions of pounds of investment. On the
:23:29. > :23:32.other hand, low skilled migration can have a serious impact on the
:23:33. > :23:38.jobs market, pay levels and so on at the low skilled end of the labour
:23:39. > :23:41.market. We have to distinguish between different kinds of
:23:42. > :23:45.migration. You keep trying to excuse the figures by talking about the
:23:46. > :23:51.lack of transitional controls. Can we skip the chart I was going to go
:23:52. > :23:56.to? The next one. Under Labour, this is the source of where migrants came
:23:57. > :24:00.from. The main source was not the accession countries or the remainder
:24:01. > :24:05.of Europe. Overwhelmingly they were from the African Commonwealth, and
:24:06. > :24:10.the Indian subcontinent. Overwhelmingly, these numbers are
:24:11. > :24:13.nothing to do with transitional controls. You can control that
:24:14. > :24:19.immigration entirely because they are not part of the EU. Was that a
:24:20. > :24:24.mistake? First of all, the big increase was in the accession
:24:25. > :24:28.groups. Not according to the chart. In terms of the increase, the
:24:29. > :24:32.changes that happened. Secondly in answer to the question that you just
:24:33. > :24:36.asked me, we should also have introduced the points -based system
:24:37. > :24:39.at an earlier stage. Thirdly there has been a big increase in the
:24:40. > :24:43.number of university students coming to Britain and they have brought
:24:44. > :24:47.billions of pounds of investment. At the moment the Government is not
:24:48. > :24:51.distinguishing, it is just using the figure of net migration. And that is
:24:52. > :24:55.starting to go up again, as you said in the introduction, but the problem
:24:56. > :24:59.is that it treats all kinds of migration is aimed. It does not
:25:00. > :25:04.address illegal immigration, which is a problem, but it treats
:25:05. > :25:08.university graduates coming to Britain in the same way as low
:25:09. > :25:13.skilled workers. If Labour get back into power, is it your ambition to
:25:14. > :25:17.bring down immigration? We have already said it is too high and we
:25:18. > :25:22.would support measures to bring it down. You would bring it down? There
:25:23. > :25:26.is something called student visas, which is not included in the
:25:27. > :25:30.figures, and it does not include university graduates, and it is a
:25:31. > :25:40.figure that has increased substantially in recent years. They
:25:41. > :25:43.come for short-term study but they do not even have to prove that they
:25:44. > :25:46.come for a college course. They do not even have to have a place to
:25:47. > :25:49.come. Those visas should be restricted to prevent abuse of the
:25:50. > :25:51.system and that is in line with a recommendation from the Inspectorate
:25:52. > :25:54.and that is the kind of practical thing that we could do. Can you give
:25:55. > :25:59.us a ballpark figure of how much immigration would fall? You have
:26:00. > :26:04.seen the mess that Theresa May has got into with her figures. She made
:26:05. > :26:27.a target that it is clear to me that she will not meet. I think that is
:26:28. > :26:30.right. She will not meet it. Can you give as a ballpark figure by which
:26:31. > :26:33.we can judge you? If she had been more sensible and taken more time to
:26:34. > :26:36.listen to experts and decide what measures should be targeted, then
:26:37. > :26:38.she would not be in this mess. You cannot give me a figure? She has
:26:39. > :26:41.chosen net migration. She has set a target, without ifs and buts. I
:26:42. > :26:43.think it is important not to have a massive gap between the rhetoric and
:26:44. > :26:47.reality. Not to make promises on numbers which are not responsible.
:26:48. > :26:51.OK, you won't give me a figure. Fine. Moving on to crime. 10,00
:26:52. > :26:56.front line police jobs have gone since 2010 but crime continues to
:26:57. > :27:00.fall. 7% down last year alone. When you told the Labour conference that
:27:01. > :27:05.you do not cut crime by cutting the police, you were wrong. I think the
:27:06. > :27:10.Government is being very complacent about what is happening to crime.
:27:11. > :27:13.Crime patterns are changing. There has been an exponential increase,
:27:14. > :27:22.and that is in the words of the police, in online crime. We have
:27:23. > :27:27.also seen, for example, domestic violence going up, but prosecutions
:27:28. > :27:32.dropping dramatically. There is a serious impact as a result of not
:27:33. > :27:35.having 10,000 police in place. You have talked about the exponential
:27:36. > :27:40.increase in online and economic crime. If those are the big growth
:27:41. > :27:46.areas, why have bobbies on the beat? That would make no difference. It is
:27:47. > :27:49.about an approach to policing that has been incredibly successful over
:27:50. > :27:53.many years, which Labour introduced, which is neighbourhood policing in
:27:54. > :27:57.the community is working hard with communities to prevent crime. People
:27:58. > :28:02.like to see bobbies on the beat but have you got any evidence that it
:28:03. > :28:06.leads to a reduction in crime? Interestingly, the Lords Stevens
:28:07. > :28:10.commission that we set up, they have reported this week and it has been
:28:11. > :28:16.the equivalent of a Royal commission, looking at the number of
:28:17. > :28:18.people involved in it. Their strong recommendation was that this is
:28:19. > :28:21.about preventing crime but also respectful law and order, working
:28:22. > :28:25.with communities, and so they strongly took the view with all of
:28:26. > :28:29.their expertise and the 30 different universities that they have involved
:28:30. > :28:33.with it, that on the basis of all that analysis, the right thing was
:28:34. > :28:39.to keep bobbies on the beat and not push them cars. Instinctively you
:28:40. > :28:44.would think it was true. More visible policing, less crime. But in
:28:45. > :28:47.all the criminology work, I cannot find the evidence. There is
:28:48. > :28:52.competing work about why there has been a 20 year drop in overall crime
:28:53. > :28:55.and everybody has different opinions on why that has happened. The point
:28:56. > :29:00.about neighbourhood policing is that it is broader than crime-fighting.
:29:01. > :29:07.It is about prevention and community safety. Improving the well-being of
:29:08. > :29:13.communities as well. Will you keep the elected Police Commissioners?
:29:14. > :29:18.Big sigh! What the report said was that the system is flawed. We raised
:29:19. > :29:23.concern about this at the beginning. You will remember at the elections,
:29:24. > :29:29.Theresa May's flagship policy, at the elections they cost ?100 million
:29:30. > :29:34.and there was 15% turnout. You have to have a system of accountability
:29:35. > :29:39.at the police. Three options were presented, all of which are forms.
:29:40. > :29:43.So you have to have reform. It is not whether to have reformed, it is
:29:44. > :29:54.which of those options is the best way to do it. The commission set out
:29:55. > :29:59.a series of options, and I thought that the preferable approach would
:30:00. > :30:03.be collaboration and voluntary mergers. We know they won't
:30:04. > :30:07.volunteer. There have been some collaboration is taking place. I
:30:08. > :30:13.think the issues with police and crime commissioners have fragmented
:30:14. > :30:16.things and made it harder to get collaboration between police
:30:17. > :30:22.forces. Everybody is asking this question, just before you go. What
:30:23. > :30:28.is it like living with a nightmare? Who does all the cooking, so I can't
:30:29. > :30:37.complain! Says Miliband people are wrong, he is a dream cook? He is!
:30:38. > :30:41.In a speech this week, Boris Johnson praised greed and envy as essential
:30:42. > :30:45.for economic progress, and that has got tongues wagging. What is the
:30:46. > :30:51.Mayor of London up to? What is his game plan? Does he even have a game
:30:52. > :31:00.plan and does he know if he has one? Flash photography coming up. Boris.
:31:01. > :31:03.In many ways I can leave it there. You'd know who I meant. And if you
:31:04. > :31:14.didn't, the unruly mop of blonde hair would tell you, the language.
:31:15. > :31:31.Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England. Somehow pulling
:31:32. > :31:34.off the ridiculous to the sublime. It is going to go zoink off the
:31:35. > :31:40.scale! But often having to speed away from the whiff-whaff of
:31:41. > :31:42.scandal. Boris, are you going to save your manage?
:31:43. > :31:45.There's always been a question about him and his as role as mayor and
:31:46. > :31:48.another prized position, as hinted to the Tory faithful this year at
:31:49. > :32:00.conference, discussing former French Prime Minister Alan Juppe. -- Alain
:32:01. > :32:04.Juppe. He told me he was going to be the mayor of Bordeaux. I think he
:32:05. > :32:09.may have been mayor well he was Prime Minister, it is the kind of
:32:10. > :32:17.thing they do in funds -- AvD in France. It is a good idea, if you
:32:18. > :32:22.ask me. But is it a joke? He is much more ambitious. Boris wants to be
:32:23. > :32:28.Prime Minister more than anything else. Perhaps more than he wants to
:32:29. > :32:36.be made of London. The ball came loose from the back of the scrum. Of
:32:37. > :32:42.course it would give great thing to have a crack at, but it is not going
:32:43. > :32:44.to happen. He might be right. First, the Conservatives have a leader
:32:45. > :32:49.another Old Etonian, Oxford, Bullingdon chap and he has the job
:32:50. > :32:55.Boris might like a crack at. What do you do with a problem like Boris? It
:32:56. > :33:02.is one of the great paradoxes of Tory politics that for Boris Johnson
:33:03. > :33:05.to succeed, David Cameron must feel. Boris needs David Cameron to lose so
:33:06. > :33:09.that he can stand a chance of becoming loser. -- becoming leader.
:33:10. > :33:11.And disloyalty is punished by Conservatives. Boris knows the man
:33:12. > :33:14.who brought down Margaret Thatcher. Michael Heseltine, who Boris
:33:15. > :33:20.replaced as MP for Henley, never got her job. In 1986, she took on the
:33:21. > :33:31.member for Henley, always a risky venture. And why might he make such
:33:32. > :33:36.a jibe, because he's won two more elections than the PM. Conservatives
:33:37. > :33:50.like a winner. Boris, against Robert expectations, has won the Mayor of
:33:51. > :33:53.London job twice. -- public. He might've built a following with the
:33:54. > :33:57.grassroots but he's on shakier ground with many Tory MPs, who see
:33:58. > :34:04.him as a selfish clown, unfit for high office. And besides, he's not
:34:05. > :34:07.the only one with king-sized ambition, and Boris and George are
:34:08. > :34:16.not close, however much they may profess unity. There is probably
:34:17. > :34:20.some Chinese expression for a complete and perfect harmony. Ying
:34:21. > :34:24.and yang. But in plain black and white, if Boris has a plan, it's one
:34:25. > :34:29.he can't instigate, and if David Cameron is PM in 2016, it may not be
:34:30. > :34:36.implementable. He'd need a seat and it wouldn't be plain sailing if he
:34:37. > :34:40.did make a leadership bid. My leadership chances, I think I may
:34:41. > :34:44.have told you before, or about as good as my chances of ying
:34:45. > :34:49.reincarnated as a baked bean. Which is probably quite high. So if the
:34:50. > :34:55.job you want with Brown-esque desire is potentially never to be yours
:34:56. > :35:01.what do you do? He is, of course, an American citizen by birth. He was
:35:02. > :35:06.born in New York public hospital, and so he is qualified to be
:35:07. > :35:10.President of the United States. And you don't need an IQ over 16 to find
:35:11. > :35:16.that the tiniest bit scary. Giles Dilnot reporting. Helen Lewis,
:35:17. > :35:23.Janan Ganesh and Sam Coates are here. Is there a plan for Boris and
:35:24. > :35:27.if so, what is it? I think the plan is for him to say what he thinks the
:35:28. > :35:33.Tory activist base wants to hear just now. He knows that in 18 months
:35:34. > :35:37.time they can disown it. I think he is wrong, the way the speech has
:35:38. > :35:44.played has a limited number of people. He has cross-party appeal.
:35:45. > :35:47.He has now reconfirmed to people that the Tories are the nasty party
:35:48. > :35:55.and they have been pretending to be modernised. Is it not the truth that
:35:56. > :36:00.he needs David Cameron to lose the 2015 election to become leader in
:36:01. > :36:06.this decade? It is very interesting watching his fortunes wax and wane.
:36:07. > :36:10.It always seems to happen in inverse proportion to how well David Cameron
:36:11. > :36:13.is doing in front of his own party. There is no small element of
:36:14. > :36:19.strategy about what we are doing here. The problem with Boris is that
:36:20. > :36:25.he's popular with the country, but not with the party's MPs and its
:36:26. > :36:29.hard-core supporters. This was an appeal to the grassroots this week.
:36:30. > :36:37.He is not the only potential candidate. If we were in some kind
:36:38. > :36:42.of circumstance where Boris was a runner to replace Mr Cameron, who
:36:43. > :36:51.with the other front the? I think it will skip a generation. The recent
:36:52. > :36:56.intake was ideological assertive. I do not buy the idea that it will be
:36:57. > :37:04.Jeremy Hunt against Michael Gove. I then, that generation will be
:37:05. > :37:11.tainted by being in government. It is interesting, what is he trying to
:37:12. > :37:14.pull? He is ideological. He does not believe in many things, but he
:37:15. > :37:19.believes in a few things quite deeply, and one is the idea of
:37:20. > :37:23.competition, both in business and academic selection. He has never
:37:24. > :37:33.been squeamish about expressing that. We do make mistakes sometimes,
:37:34. > :37:37.assuming he is entirely political. Look at all the Northern voters who
:37:38. > :37:44.will not vote for the Tories even though they are socially or economic
:37:45. > :37:50.the Conservatives. I do not think he helps. Who in the Tories would
:37:51. > :37:59.help? That is a tough question. To reason me has also been speaking to
:38:00. > :38:04.the hard right. -- Theresa May. I have been out with him at night It
:38:05. > :38:09.is like dining with a film star People are queueing up to speak to
:38:10. > :38:14.him. Educational selection is one of the few areas that he can offer He
:38:15. > :38:31.has gone liberal on immigration as are made of London would have to.
:38:32. > :38:36.Hello I'm Arif Ansari, coming up in the North West: Face`off over
:38:37. > :38:43.fracking ` the row over shale gas hots up. My guests this week are
:38:44. > :38:46.Andrew Gwynne, the Labour MP for Denton and Reddish. And Sajj Karim,
:38:47. > :38:59.one of our three Conservative members of the European Parliament.
:39:00. > :39:04.Andrew, Labour has been setting out its energy policies this week, where
:39:05. > :39:09.do you stand on fracking? The extraction of gas is an important
:39:10. > :39:12.part of equal energy mix, but that can't be at the expense of nuclear
:39:13. > :39:20.power, it can't be at the expense of renewables, or of carbon capture and
:39:21. > :39:26.storage. We do have some concerns about shale gas extraction, and we
:39:27. > :39:29.think there needs to be put in place a proper regulatory framework and
:39:30. > :39:34.proper testing done so that we have the assurances that if and when
:39:35. > :39:38.shale gas extraction is done on an industrial scale that those
:39:39. > :39:43.communities affected by that can have the full assurance that it is
:39:44. > :39:48.safe and secure. Sajj Karim, where do you stand? I have been receiving
:39:49. > :39:52.representation of your constituents across the board, particularly from
:39:53. > :39:57.the area is likely to be affected. There must be an evidence `based
:39:58. > :40:00.approach to this, and we must make sure that as part of that approach
:40:01. > :40:05.health and safety issues that are being raised by constituents, which
:40:06. > :40:09.regularly in relation to how their localities are being affected, our
:40:10. > :40:16.break at the top. Knows our fears, would they? Fears rather than
:40:17. > :40:19.evidence. That is why I say we must make sure that we take an evidence
:40:20. > :40:24.`based approach. One that brings in the fears that constituents are
:40:25. > :40:28.raising and we deal with those fears on an evidence base rather than a
:40:29. > :40:33.speculative base. Those against fracking face of gigs police in
:40:34. > :40:36.Salford this week as pensions rose over the possible of shale gas. Igas
:40:37. > :40:39.was preparing for test drilling not fracking, but protesters say they'll
:40:40. > :40:45.fight the company every step of the way because of environmental
:40:46. > :40:48.concerns. Euan Doak has more. Barton Moss in Salford. The latest
:40:49. > :40:51.stand by protestors opposed to fracking and the most
:40:52. > :41:00.confrontational so far in the North West. No one what fracking in the
:41:01. > :41:03.UK! The nature of this protest is different. Seasoned campaigners from
:41:04. > :41:06.Balcombe in Sussex have set up camp near the site and they are being
:41:07. > :41:11.supported by a cross section of local people. I am quite surprised
:41:12. > :41:16.to find a wide range of people that are here, from all age groups, for
:41:17. > :41:19.instance in our first meeting we fed a wide range of environmental groups
:41:20. > :41:25.coming down. Lay people, people from the local area, people from all
:41:26. > :41:28.across Manchester. Though small in number, the determination of the
:41:29. > :41:31.protestors to stop the lorries from getting led to tussles with police
:41:32. > :41:39.and there were five arrests this week. The site itself is bordered by
:41:40. > :41:44.the airport on one side and the M6 two behind it. Three quarters of a
:41:45. > :41:47.mile to the east a housing estate and two schools. And its from there
:41:48. > :41:53.that local people have come to support the protestors. I am very
:41:54. > :41:57.worried about the health impact The impact in a general sense on people
:41:58. > :42:00.'s lives from the noise, but more than anything else the possibility
:42:01. > :42:05.of emissions from the process that will affect their quality. We have
:42:06. > :42:08.the quality down there already and this will make it worse and some of
:42:09. > :42:10.the chemicals are toxic and make the dangers.
:42:11. > :42:14.The company Igas already operates in the North West and say the drilling
:42:15. > :42:20.at Barton Moss is to understand the geology of the area more and whether
:42:21. > :42:24.they may find methane or shale gas. This is about trying to reassure the
:42:25. > :42:27.public that we as an industry are behaving in a safe and
:42:28. > :42:33.environmentally responsible manner. We recognise the concerns about the
:42:34. > :42:36.water resource. A point of building and constructing the well is to
:42:37. > :42:42.ensure that we do not in any way introduce foreign bodies into those
:42:43. > :42:47.aquifers. Campaigners are worrying test drilling could lead to
:42:48. > :42:52.fracking. As the lorries over more women in the coming weeks, the
:42:53. > :42:55.protests are likely to continue Sajj Karim, what is your view of the
:42:56. > :43:02.protests question mark as long as the protester within the agreement
:43:03. > :43:06.of the war, that is absolutely fine. It is essential that as part of any
:43:07. > :43:11.democratic says people are able to raise their concerns. Oliver, having
:43:12. > :43:14.said all that, it is absolutely essential that we do concentrate our
:43:15. > :43:20.efforts on the evidence that is coming forward and if we allow the
:43:21. > :43:24.environmental impact studies to be studied in great detail, and then
:43:25. > :43:29.take an approach, keep in Parliament health and safety concerns. I do not
:43:30. > :43:34.understand what you're worried about, all of the major studies have
:43:35. > :43:37.said that it is safe. I can only repeat what I have said before, that
:43:38. > :43:41.we must make sure that all the studies and the evidence that is
:43:42. > :43:45.coming forward from them are taken into account, will be making
:43:46. > :43:50.decisions as to whether we will proceed with this or not. Is the
:43:51. > :43:54.Coalition government to keen on fracking in your view? I don't think
:43:55. > :44:00.it is at all, we are taking the right approach. We are being very
:44:01. > :44:03.cautious and saying, let's have the environment studies, let's make sure
:44:04. > :44:05.we take an evidence `based approach in the, it would be quite
:44:06. > :44:10.irresponsible to give the green light or a red light without having
:44:11. > :44:17.considered all of the facts that exist here. I am not sure what the
:44:18. > :44:24.safety issues are. Part of the problem is that there has not been
:44:25. > :44:30.any major testing. But of course, people's experiences from elsewhere
:44:31. > :44:33.around the globe sure that there have been concerns. Firstly the
:44:34. > :44:37.pollution of ground water is a concern,
:44:38. > :44:40.pollution of ground water is a but there are the regulatory system
:44:41. > :44:46.is quite different. Absolutely but there it is chicken and egg. We must
:44:47. > :44:53.have UK regulatory system in place in this country and we do not have
:44:54. > :44:55.that yet. That is one of the reasons why Barbara Keenan is absolutely
:44:56. > :44:59.correct in raising her constituent's concerns, because this
:45:00. > :45:03.site in Salford is very closely heavily built`up area. Many of the
:45:04. > :45:07.areas in the United States where there has been shale gas extraction
:45:08. > :45:12.are in parts of the country that are nowhere near two major centres of
:45:13. > :45:16.population. Of course when you are looking at doing this in a country
:45:17. > :45:19.like the latest kingdom, you have to be absolutely correct that you do
:45:20. > :45:24.not have polluted water courses you do not have meeting leaking out and
:45:25. > :45:27.you do not create the tremors. It could potentially be quite good for
:45:28. > :45:31.the people of Salford, couldn't it? If they go ahead with fracking and
:45:32. > :45:35.the plan is that local people benefit financially from that, it
:45:36. > :45:39.could be good for the community There is a lot of it's there, and we
:45:40. > :45:43.have got to get through the first set of hurdles and that is to have a
:45:44. > :45:47.proper regulatory system in voice in order to understand exactly what
:45:48. > :45:53.fracking means for the communities, whether it is a routine duties or
:45:54. > :45:57.rural communities. But I do think there is one important point. And
:45:58. > :46:02.that is that unless we have the regulatory system in place this is
:46:03. > :46:05.not going to be a game changer for the cost of living prices for gas
:46:06. > :46:12.and electricity bills in this country. Not in any sense of the way
:46:13. > :46:17.that I think this government thinks it might be. We have got to have a
:46:18. > :46:24.proper mix of renewable energy, nuclear energy and the proper mix.
:46:25. > :46:30.Sajj Karim, briefly, is there a possibility that we will not be able
:46:31. > :46:33.to start fracking because the campaigns will keep destructing
:46:34. > :46:36.every time they try to make a start? It is important that we realise that
:46:37. > :46:43.this is one of the better decisions that there's going to be having an
:46:44. > :46:49.impact not only on our economy but for the latest kingdom as a whole
:46:50. > :46:51.and we must keep everything in perspective on that basis.
:46:52. > :46:55.And there'll be a series of special reports on fracking on North West
:46:56. > :46:58.Tonight this week, including from Ohio, where Peter Marshall's been to
:46:59. > :47:06.assess the impact there. That's this week at half past six on BBC One.
:47:07. > :47:10."Has Britain Robbed its Children?" Strange question you might think.
:47:11. > :47:13.But that's the view of one sixth former from Blackburn who reckons
:47:14. > :47:16.his generation are suffering most from austerity and has won an essay
:47:17. > :47:20.competition run by the New Statesman magazine. So on Lancashire Day Conor
:47:21. > :47:33.Hamilton took us on a tour of the county to make his case.
:47:34. > :47:42.Indymedia, young people are often portrayed as being selfish and
:47:43. > :47:47.irresponsible. Although generations must pick up the pieces. I think it
:47:48. > :47:49.is the other way around. I think the older generations have left too
:47:50. > :47:55.little for those who have come later. Let's see what waggish
:47:56. > :48:01.effects. You are invited on the flag is ready to partake of a waggish
:48:02. > :48:05.hotpot. Did you think young people are at a disadvantage? I think they
:48:06. > :48:09.are at a disadvantage because there aren't the same jobs that there once
:48:10. > :48:13.was. It would be nice to see young and old mix more freely together.
:48:14. > :48:20.Young people are missing out completely. They don't have the same
:48:21. > :48:24.sort of life as we have. That life, according to the mayor of the Ribble
:48:25. > :48:30.Valley, has just as many challenges. I have lived through the war, we had
:48:31. > :48:37.things like rationing. They have it easier in some ways, immaterial
:48:38. > :48:41.goods which are much more available. But the challenges we have our
:48:42. > :48:46.different. So what are the challenges? First of all we have the
:48:47. > :48:53.increasing cost of housing. Then we have the cost of education. Finally,
:48:54. > :48:57.we have the impact of austerity and the national debt. All these things
:48:58. > :49:06.together are combining to affect my generation's outlook. The immediate
:49:07. > :49:15.outlook for these GCSEs students at a local school led them to prepare a
:49:16. > :49:19.meal for added that to get as part of the course. I would like to think
:49:20. > :49:25.that I will go to university, but obviously the fees that exist are so
:49:26. > :49:30.high. They're always worries about getting a job. I want to go to
:49:31. > :49:34.university and I have my future planned out. I am looking forward to
:49:35. > :49:38.it. Not everyone is optimistic and that worries the Bishop of
:49:39. > :49:44.Blackburn. The government can do more than that at the moment to help
:49:45. > :49:47.young people, especially. How effective is the church to help
:49:48. > :49:52.young people? I do not think we are very effective at all. We have much
:49:53. > :49:54.to learn. If you look at the number of churches who do things for young
:49:55. > :50:03.people it is smaller than it should be. I have heard from young people
:50:04. > :50:08.and all people alike, and one thing that struck me is that everyone has
:50:09. > :50:13.expressed concern over my generation's future in one form or
:50:14. > :50:18.another. The question remains, what our politicians going to do to make
:50:19. > :50:25.my generation's future more secure? We are also joined by Angus Hansen
:50:26. > :50:28.from the intergenerational foundation, a charity that promotes
:50:29. > :50:32.the interests of young people. Thank you for joining us. How are young
:50:33. > :50:36.people doing in this region? The other generational foundation did a
:50:37. > :50:41.study of different regions and find that the north`west was the fourth
:50:42. > :50:44.worst out of the 12 regions in the UK. They had been particularly badly
:50:45. > :50:49.when it comes to housing costs, as Connor said, there being cruelly in
:50:50. > :50:54.relation to democracy, the average age of a councillor in the
:50:55. > :50:57.north`west is over 60. They are doing cruelly English into
:50:58. > :51:00.unemployment, it is very high on employment rates. It is not just
:51:01. > :51:04.about how badly young people are doing, it is about, as Conor said,
:51:05. > :51:07.the relationship between how badly they are doing and how well the
:51:08. > :51:12.older generation of being relatively. It really is about
:51:13. > :51:16.fairness between generations. Is there a wider gap in the north`west
:51:17. > :51:20.and is in other parts of the country? Yes, there is. And housing
:51:21. > :51:25.is one example. Any increase in house values is unequivocally a
:51:26. > :51:30.transfer from young to all. The north`west has been very pure at the
:51:31. > :51:34.building of new housing and housing costs are particularly expensive in
:51:35. > :51:37.the north`west. You think that most of this comes down to the fact that
:51:38. > :51:43.the north`west has certain economic and social factors, which we often
:51:44. > :51:48.hear about, or is there something specific that is facing young people
:51:49. > :51:51.in this region? It is a combination of things. We have looked at all
:51:52. > :51:55.sorts of things, environmental damage and so on, and fill some
:51:56. > :52:00.areas where the north`west does particularly well. In GCSE results
:52:01. > :52:03.does better than average, spending on research and development, it is
:52:04. > :52:08.doing better than most of the rest of the country. So it is not all
:52:09. > :52:12.bad, it has a better dependency ratio, that is to say that there are
:52:13. > :52:16.fewer older people to support in the north`west in relation to
:52:17. > :52:21.population, so it is not bad. Andrew, do you agree that younger
:52:22. > :52:26.people are being harder hit? I think that Conor's pieces very pertinent,
:52:27. > :52:31.because there is an issue about young people and their role in
:52:32. > :52:34.society and the highlight some very broad points. I think as politicians
:52:35. > :52:40.we have got to give that generation a vision of hope for the future and
:52:41. > :52:43.that is why I am very proud that we will be standing at the next
:52:44. > :52:48.election on the ticket of having a new job guarantee. Youth
:52:49. > :52:50.unemployment is a huge issue in my constituency and in many other
:52:51. > :52:57.communities in the north`west. We have got to give young people more
:52:58. > :53:00.training opportunities, obscure the population but also, he is
:53:01. > :53:05.absolutely right, it is things like housing and living costs. The affect
:53:06. > :53:09.all generations but the disproportionately hit the youngest
:53:10. > :53:11.the hardest. Do you feel that the government austerity programme has
:53:12. > :53:16.hit them harder than you would have liked them to? There is an issue
:53:17. > :53:21.here because it was a very easy target in many respects to hit the
:53:22. > :53:26.students with university the tuition fees being able, it was a very easy
:53:27. > :53:31.hit to take away the education maintenance allowance. Do you think
:53:32. > :53:35.they were deliberately targeted In a way that no government would be
:53:36. > :53:39.able to remove the free bus pass or remove the winter fuel allowance to
:53:40. > :53:43.the same extent as the young people have been hit. To put it crudely, it
:53:44. > :53:46.is because young people is proportionately do not fought in the
:53:47. > :53:51.same numbers as elderly people, so as a political hit it as much easier
:53:52. > :53:56.to take things away from the young people, unfurling, because of course
:53:57. > :54:01.we are our society for tomorrow They will be the taxpayer of
:54:02. > :54:05.tomorrow. Do you agree, Sajj Karim, that young people have been unfairly
:54:06. > :54:08.targeted? I think Conor is a fine example of a young person getting
:54:09. > :54:11.involved with a view to try and improve things, I actually spent the
:54:12. > :54:18.whole morning that Conor's School and indeed quite some time sat with
:54:19. > :54:20.him and his colleagues from his class discussing a number of
:54:21. > :54:25.issues, including participation from young people. I think it is
:54:26. > :54:29.important. I see things across the European Union. I see the effect
:54:30. > :54:36.that the current crisis is having on young people and places like Spain,
:54:37. > :54:39.in Greece in Italy, where we have 50% unemployment among the years. I
:54:40. > :54:42.look at what is happening in the UK and the numbers of extra jobs that
:54:43. > :54:46.we have been able to create for young people. What did you see the
:54:47. > :54:51.Conor when he said to you that the conservative and Lib Dem government
:54:52. > :54:57.as head of harder and more unfairly than the older generation? Actually,
:54:58. > :55:00.Conor did not say that to me at all. Conor was making some very powerful
:55:01. > :55:05.point in the work that he has done. And in the discussions he has had
:55:06. > :55:08.with me. About making sure that we have a greater engagement with young
:55:09. > :55:13.people in the political processes. And he was being polite to you but
:55:14. > :55:16.clearly he does believe... I don't think he was. That is the thrust of
:55:17. > :55:20.his argument, I have read his essay. It is the point that Andrew is
:55:21. > :55:22.making no, that politically it is too difficult to hit the older
:55:23. > :55:28.generation because they are more likely to vote. That is not the
:55:29. > :55:34.sense that I had it all. They were a very bright bunch of kids. The fact
:55:35. > :55:37.of the matter is, we have got to ensure that our young children have
:55:38. > :55:42.the opportunities to get ahead in life, whether that is the education
:55:43. > :55:47.and whether that is to training Why would you answer the question that
:55:48. > :55:50.I'm putting to you? I'm trying to. What we have got to do is make sure
:55:51. > :55:54.that our young people have that opportunity, and what we're seeing
:55:55. > :55:59.is that young people have got to carry on either in education or
:56:00. > :56:02.training until the age of 18 as either a minimum. That is the
:56:03. > :56:06.responsibility, that is a contract that we're getting to young and
:56:07. > :56:09.seeing, we are willing to work with you. Let's work together on this. We
:56:10. > :56:14.have far too many young people who have dropped out of the education
:56:15. > :56:17.system simply because the government of the day has said to them that it
:56:18. > :56:24.is right for you to sit back and do nothing to improve your condition.
:56:25. > :56:28.Let me go back to Angus. Is there a solution to this? Is there anyway
:56:29. > :56:33.that younger people 's voices will be heard for a locally? It is not
:56:34. > :56:37.true that patronising approach. The younger people have clearly been
:56:38. > :56:43.shattered by the baby boomers, fiscally. By taxes and benefits and
:56:44. > :56:49.so on. We need to look again at things, not through a class or lens,
:56:50. > :56:53.the lens of intergenerational fairness, to see that it is not just
:56:54. > :56:56.young people losing out because things are tough, they are losing
:56:57. > :57:00.out because we, and I am one of them, we need baby boomers have
:57:01. > :57:04.taken too much. Too much in pensions and national debt and so on. There
:57:05. > :57:06.really is an intergenerational conflict here. Thank you very much
:57:07. > :57:10.indeed. Time for the rest of the week's news
:57:11. > :57:16.now, here's Elaine Dunkley with 60 seconds. Rochdale Council's
:57:17. > :57:19.investigating former Co`op Bank chairman Paul Flower's period as a
:57:20. > :57:21.councillor there. Mr Flowers was Vice Chairman of Social Services
:57:22. > :57:26.during an alleged Satanic abuse scandal.
:57:27. > :57:29.The father of a woman murdered by her ex`boyfriend welcomed the
:57:30. > :57:32.expansion of a scheme to tackle domestic abuse. Clare's Law allows
:57:33. > :57:37.people to check if their partners have a history of violence. It's
:57:38. > :57:45.being rolled out nationally after a pilot in Greater Manchester. There
:57:46. > :57:50.was no reason that these lads should have anonymity. Especially at a cost
:57:51. > :57:53.of someone's life. They can move from one partner to the next.
:57:54. > :57:56.An independent review's started into the Isle of Man's health service.
:57:57. > :57:58.Senior consultants raised concerns over standards at Noble's Hospital.
:57:59. > :58:01.A record`breaking turnaround ` Wirral council's been taken out of
:58:02. > :58:05.special measures after making improvements in double`quick time.
:58:06. > :58:08.And Blackpool's received more than ?300,000 for a new visitor centre,
:58:09. > :58:17.bird hides and other work at Marton Mere Nature Reserve.
:58:18. > :58:20.You might remember in the past we've covered the campaign to keep open
:58:21. > :58:29.the A and E department at Trafford General Hospital. Well this week it
:58:30. > :58:33.was officially downgraded. Andrew, you still believe that is a mistake?
:58:34. > :58:36.It is a mistake because we are currently going through process of
:58:37. > :58:41.looking at hospital services across the whole of greater Manchester and
:58:42. > :58:44.actually as we enter this winter, which many people are suggesting is
:58:45. > :58:48.going to be a very difficult time for them in the National Health
:58:49. > :58:53.Service, in the departments across the country are frankly at crisis
:58:54. > :58:57.point, I worry that this downgrade at Trafford General Hospital is very
:58:58. > :59:00.short`sighted because I think that many of the hospitals surrounding
:59:01. > :59:05.the area are really going to struggle to pick up the pieces of an
:59:06. > :59:09.AMD crisis that has David Cameron's fingerprint all over it. Has the
:59:10. > :59:13.government made a mistake? These particles will point and not really
:59:14. > :59:18.faded when it comes to dealing with the issues of peoples lives. We have
:59:19. > :59:21.disputed ?250 million extra in the NHS in order to cater for the very
:59:22. > :59:27.severe winter that we are to have. This will lead to 3000 extra jobs,
:59:28. > :59:30.2500 extra beds. If you're talking about the travel Hospital in
:59:31. > :59:33.particular the actual change of status started a the actual change
:59:34. > :59:36.of status started another Labour government in the maternity units
:59:37. > :59:38.were taken away. I had other local councillors were extreme hard to try
:59:39. > :59:42.and preserve it as best as we possibly could and eventually it had
:59:43. > :59:47.decayed `` take a decision that they could not pursue legal actions. Well
:59:48. > :59:51.an inquiry was launched last month into the finances at Arrowe Park
:59:52. > :59:56.Hospital in Wirral. Here's what the Chief Executive there had to say
:59:57. > :00:00.this week about balancing the books. The whole of the NHS is facing a
:00:01. > :00:05.huge challenge and we are having, the hospital does not work in
:00:06. > :00:07.isolation and we are having to work with health care colleagues across
:00:08. > :00:12.the whole of the will health economy when looking at how we do things
:00:13. > :00:17.very differently. Given that we have rising demand for health care and
:00:18. > :00:24.less resources available. How worried are you when you hear about
:00:25. > :00:28.things like that? It is absolutely imperative that of all the areas
:00:29. > :00:33.that we have we make sure that the NHS is operating. In a manner that
:00:34. > :00:40.actually delivers a service for which we expect it to be working in
:00:41. > :00:45.an absolutely a star basis. Andrew? It has taken all year for this
:00:46. > :00:50.government to recognise they have had a summer AMD crisis and I fear
:00:51. > :00:53.for the NHS in the winter. And is listed on the government making
:00:54. > :00:56.mistakes and the pressure the NHS is under? Yell at the pressures the NHS
:00:57. > :01:01.is under our guide to adult social care, ?2 billion to get out of the
:01:02. > :01:04.adult social care budget, and this is now finding its way to the front
:01:05. > :01:12.door of accident and emergency departments. Thank you very much. To
:01:13. > :01:15.Andrew Quinn and Sajj Karim. And next week's the last programme
:01:16. > :01:17.before Christmas. We'll be looking at the government's troubled
:01:18. > :01:19.families programme. Join me then, but for now I'll hand you back to
:01:20. > :01:25.Andrew Neil. picked out. People thought he was
:01:26. > :01:40.touching on eugenics and things like that. That is all we have time for.
:01:41. > :01:46.Thank you. What rabbit has George Osborne got up his sleeve? And
:01:47. > :01:53.what's David Cameron up to in China? All questions for The Week Ahead. To
:01:54. > :02:01.help the panel led, we are joined by Kwasi Kwarteng, Tory MP. Welcome to
:02:02. > :02:05.the Sunday Politics. Why has the government been unable to move the
:02:06. > :02:09.agenda and to the broad economic recovery, and allowed the agenda to
:02:10. > :02:15.stay on Labour's ground of energy prices and living standards? Energy
:02:16. > :02:19.has been a big issue over the last few months but the autumn state and
:02:20. > :02:22.will be a wonderful opportunity to readdress where we are fighting the
:02:23. > :02:28.ground, the good economic news that we delivered. If you look at where
:02:29. > :02:32.Labour were earlier this year, people were saying they would they 5
:02:33. > :02:42.million people unemployed. They were saying that there should be a plan
:02:43. > :02:46.B. He is not in the Labour Party? Elements of the left were suggesting
:02:47. > :02:51.it. Peter Hain told me it would be up to 3 million people. Danny
:02:52. > :02:57.Blanchflower said it would be 5 million people. So we have got to
:02:58. > :03:02.get the economy back to the centre of the debate? Yes, the game we were
:03:03. > :03:05.playing was about the economy. That was the central fighting ground of
:03:06. > :03:11.the political debate. We were winning that battle. Labour have
:03:12. > :03:15.cleverly shifted it onto the cost of living. It is essential that the
:03:16. > :03:26.government, that George, talks about the economy. That has been its great
:03:27. > :03:29.success. I do not think this has been a week of admitting that Labour
:03:30. > :03:37.was right, plain cigarettes packaging, other issues. If you look
:03:38. > :03:43.at the big picture, where we are with the economy, we have the
:03:44. > :03:46.fastest growing economy in the G-7. Despite Labour's predictions, none
:03:47. > :03:52.of this has happened, none of the triple dip has happened. The British
:03:53. > :03:58.economy is on a good fitting. That is a good story for the government
:03:59. > :04:01.to bat on. You say that people have stopped talking about the economic
:04:02. > :04:07.recovery, but it is worse than that, people have stopped talking about
:04:08. > :04:11.the deficit? As long as people were talking about the deficit, the
:04:12. > :04:17.Tories were trusted. But people have forgotten about it. This country
:04:18. > :04:23.still spends ?100 billion more than it raises. Yes, I am of the view
:04:24. > :04:28.that the deficit, the national debt, is the biggest question facing
:04:29. > :04:31.this generation of politicians. You are right to suggest that the
:04:32. > :04:38.Conservative Party was strong on this. That head, not deficit, is not
:04:39. > :04:43.going to come down in the foreseeable future? It is rising.
:04:44. > :04:48.This is a test that George Osborne is not going to pass. We know what
:04:49. > :04:52.is coming in the Autumn Statement, it is lots of giveaways, paying for
:04:53. > :04:57.free school meals, paying for fuel duty subsidies. We are still talking
:04:58. > :05:04.about the cost of living, not changing it actively wider economy.
:05:05. > :05:10.There might be extra money for growth but it is not clear what will
:05:11. > :05:14.happen to that. If it is time for giveaways, let's speak about Labour.
:05:15. > :05:22.I have never been a fan of giveaways. Fiscal prudence is what
:05:23. > :05:27.our watchword should be. Look at the headlines. Each time, the deficit
:05:28. > :05:32.figures, the debt figures, were always worse than predicted. This
:05:33. > :05:38.year it will be significantly better. I think that is significant.
:05:39. > :05:43.Any kind of recovery is probably better than no recovery at all. When
:05:44. > :05:49.you look at this recovery, it is basically a consumer spending boom.
:05:50. > :05:56.Consumer spending is up, business investment is way down compared with
:05:57. > :06:02.2008, and exports, despite a 20 devaluation, our flat. Let's get one
:06:03. > :06:08.thing straight, it is a recovery. Any recovery is better than no
:06:09. > :06:13.recovery. Now we can have a debate about, technical debate about the
:06:14. > :06:19.elements of the recovery. It is not technical, it is a fact. There is
:06:20. > :06:25.evidence that there is optimism in terms of what are thinking...
:06:26. > :06:31.Optimism? If I am optimistic about the economy, I am more likely to
:06:32. > :06:37.spend money and invest in business. So far you have not managed that?
:06:38. > :06:41.Exports have not done well either? Exports are not a big section of the
:06:42. > :06:47.British economy. But of course, they are important. But given where we
:06:48. > :06:52.were at the end of last year, no economist was saying that we would
:06:53. > :07:00.be in this robust position today. That is true, in terms of the
:07:01. > :07:03.overall recovery. Now the PM loves to "bang the drum abroad for British
:07:04. > :07:06.business" and he's off to China this evening with a plane-load of British
:07:07. > :07:37.business leaders. And it's not the first time. Take a look at this
:07:38. > :08:03.Well, you might not think exports unimportant, but clearly the Prime
:08:04. > :08:08.Minister and the Chancellor do. They are important, but they are not what
:08:09. > :08:13.is driving the growth at the moment. We used to talk about the need for
:08:14. > :08:17.export led recovery is, that is why the Prime Minister is going to
:08:18. > :08:22.China. Absolutely, and he's doing the right thing. Do we have any
:08:23. > :08:28.evidence that these tend of trips produce business? The main example
:08:29. > :08:34.so far is the right to trade the Chinese currency offshore. London
:08:35. > :08:39.has a kind of global primacy. London will be the offshore centre. Is that
:08:40. > :08:43.a good thing? I have no problem at all with this sort of policy. I do
:08:44. > :08:47.not think that Britain has been doing this enough compared with
:08:48. > :08:53.France and Germany in recent years. I am optimistic in the long term
:08:54. > :09:00.about this dish -- about British exports to China. China need machine
:09:01. > :09:04.tools and manufacturing products. In 20 years time, China will be buying
:09:05. > :09:10.professional groups, educational services, the things we excel at.
:09:11. > :09:15.All we need to do is consolidate our strengths, stand still and we will
:09:16. > :09:18.move forward. The worst thing we can do is reengineer the economy towards
:09:19. > :09:25.those services and away from something else. We have a lot of
:09:26. > :09:30.ground to make up, Helen? At one stage, it is no longer true, but at
:09:31. > :09:34.one stage you could say that we exported more to Ireland, a country
:09:35. > :09:42.of 4 million people, than we did to Russia, China, India, Brazil, all
:09:43. > :09:49.combined. I believe we form 1% of Chinese imports now. The problem is
:09:50. > :09:54.what you have to give up in exchange for that. It is a big problem for
:09:55. > :10:01.David Cameron's credibility that he has had to row back on his meeting
:10:02. > :10:05.with the Dalai llama. This trip we have been in the deep freeze with
:10:06. > :10:11.China for a couple of years. This trip has come at a high cost. We
:10:12. > :10:14.have had to open up the City of London to Chinese banks without much
:10:15. > :10:19.scrutiny, we have had to move the date of the Autumn Statement, and
:10:20. > :10:23.there is no mention of human rights. It is awkward to deal with that all
:10:24. > :10:31.in the name of getting up to where we were a few years ago. A month
:10:32. > :10:34.after strong anchor -- one month after Sri Lanka, where he apologised
:10:35. > :10:41.three human rights abuses, this is difficult to take. Do we have any
:10:42. > :10:45.idea what the Prime Minister hopes to do in China this time? I am not
:10:46. > :10:50.sure there is anything specific but when you go to these countries,
:10:51. > :10:54.certainly in the Middle East China, they complain, why has the Prime
:10:55. > :10:59.Minister not come to see us? That is very important. High-level
:11:00. > :11:04.delegations from other countries go to these places because the addict
:11:05. > :11:16.-- because they are important export markets. You might look at the Prime
:11:17. > :11:20.Minister playing cricket over there, and wonder, what is that for? I do
:11:21. > :11:25.not mind the Prime Minister Rajoy cricket. This is a high visibility
:11:26. > :11:31.mission, chose that politicians in Britain care. You are part of the
:11:32. > :11:35.free enterprise group. It had all sorts of things on it like tax cuts
:11:36. > :11:43.for those on middle incomes or above the 40% bracket, tax cuts worth 16
:11:44. > :11:49.billion. You will get none of that on Thursday, we are agreed? No. But
:11:50. > :11:57.he does have two budgets between now and the election and if the fiscal
:11:58. > :12:00.position is using a little bit, he may have more leeway than it looked
:12:01. > :12:06.like a couple of months ago. Yes, from a free enter prise point of
:12:07. > :12:11.view, we have looked at the tax cuts that should be looked at. The 4 p
:12:12. > :12:17.rate comes in at quite a low level for people who, in the south-east,
:12:18. > :12:24.do not feel particularly wealthy. They are spending a lot of money on
:12:25. > :12:28.commuting, energy bills. The Chancellor has been very open about
:12:29. > :12:33.championing this. He says that the 40p rate will kick in at a slightly
:12:34. > :12:37.higher rate. Labour had a bad summer and the opinion polls seem to be
:12:38. > :12:43.narrowing. Then they had a good hearty conference season. The best.
:12:44. > :12:48.Has the Labour lead solidified or increased the little, maybe up to
:12:49. > :12:51.eight points? If it is a good Autumn Statement, or the Tories start to
:12:52. > :12:58.narrow that lead by the end of the year? If they go into 2014 trailing
:12:59. > :13:03.by single digits, they cannot complain too much. That gives them
:13:04. > :13:08.18 months to chip away at Labour's lead. But do they do that chipping
:13:09. > :13:13.away by eight bidding Labour or do they let time take its course and
:13:14. > :13:17.let the economic recovery continue, maybe business investment joins
:13:18. > :13:21.consumer spending as a source of that recovery, and a year from now,
:13:22. > :13:29.household disposable income begins to rise? That is a better hope than
:13:30. > :13:31.engaging in a bidding war. Be assured, they will be highly
:13:32. > :13:35.political budgets. That's all for today. The Daily Politics is on BBC
:13:36. > :13:38.Two at midday all this week, except on Thursday when we'll start at
:13:39. > :13:41.10:45 to bring you live coverage and analysis of the Chancellor's Autumn
:13:42. > :13:45.Statement in a Daily Politics special for BBC Two and the BBC News
:13:46. > :13:48.Channel. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.