:00:39. > :00:44.The morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. First, some Sunday
:00:45. > :00:49.morning cheer, if you are an MP that is. You are set to get an 1%
:00:50. > :00:55.pay rise. The Chancellor has gone from zero to hero for some, who
:00:56. > :01:00.credit him for turning the economy around. We will be taking a fine
:01:01. > :01:06.tooth comb to his Autumn Statement. Should this man get a pay rise?
:01:07. > :01:12.Complete denial about the central facts... And 11% pay rise for Ed
:01:13. > :01:16.Balls? He was certainly working hard to be heard last Thursday. We will
:01:17. > :01:20.be reviewing his performance. What about this man? We will be joined by
:01:21. > :01:24.England's And in the North West.
:01:25. > :01:27.Balancing the books by stopping us reading them. Critics round on the
:01:28. > :01:29.latest council to close its libraries. I'll be speaking to its
:01:30. > :01:31.leader. had on the capital, its politics and
:01:32. > :01:48.those who met him. With me, three scruffy eternal
:01:49. > :01:51.students. They would celebrate if they achieved a C+. But they are all
:01:52. > :01:54.we could afford and there will be no pay rise for them. They will be
:01:55. > :01:58.glued to an electronic device throughout the programme and if we
:01:59. > :02:03.are lucky they might stop there internet shopping and tweet
:02:04. > :02:08.something intelligent. But don't hold your breath. Janan Ganesh,
:02:09. > :02:12.Helen Lewis and Nick Watt. Last week, storms were battering Britain,
:02:13. > :02:16.the East Coast was hit by the worst tidal surge in more than a century,
:02:17. > :02:20.thousands of people had to be evacuated and Nelson Mandela died.
:02:21. > :02:27.The downed the news agenda was the small matter of George Osborne's
:02:28. > :02:29.Autumn Statement. His giveaways his takeaways and his first opportunity
:02:30. > :02:42.to announce some economic cheer It might be winter outside, but in
:02:43. > :02:51.the studios it is awesome. Autumn Statement time. -- autumn. This is a
:02:52. > :02:54.moment of TV history. Normally when the Chancellor delivers these
:02:55. > :02:57.statements, he has to say the economy is actually a lot worse than
:02:58. > :03:01.everyone predicted. This time, he can stand up and say the economy is
:03:02. > :03:07.better than everybody predicted A lot better.
:03:08. > :03:16.Britain is currently growing faster than any other major advanced
:03:17. > :03:20.economy. Faster than France, which is contracting, faster than Germany,
:03:21. > :03:24.faster even than America. At this Autumn Statement last year, there
:03:25. > :03:29.were repeated predictions that borrowing would go up. Instead,
:03:30. > :03:33.borrowing is down, and down significantly more than forecast.
:03:34. > :03:38.But George Osborne said the good numbers still mean more tough
:03:39. > :03:42.decisions. We will not give up in giving in our country's debts. We
:03:43. > :03:46.will not spend the money from lower borrowing. We will not squander the
:03:47. > :03:54.harder and games of the British people. -- hard earned gains. In
:03:55. > :04:00.other news, further cuts to government departments. The state
:04:01. > :04:04.pension age will increase in the 2040s, affecting people in their 40s
:04:05. > :04:08.now. There were some goodies, like discounted business rates for small
:04:09. > :04:12.businesses, free school meals for infants, favoured by the Lib Dems,
:04:13. > :04:17.and those marriage tax breaks below that by the Tories. But, as with all
:04:18. > :04:21.big fiscal events, it takes a while for the details to sink in.
:04:22. > :04:27.The marriage tax allowance is a long-standing commitment that he
:04:28. > :04:33.could not abandon. It does help those families were only one goes
:04:34. > :04:36.out to work. It does not go to higher rate taxpayers, I don't
:04:37. > :04:40.think. Perhaps it does, I can't remember. It makes me feel guilty, I
:04:41. > :04:46.am taking them very seriously, but... Shall I give you them? There
:04:47. > :04:51.is the Autumn Statement. Have that, a free gift from the Sunday
:04:52. > :04:56.Politics. Is there no limit to the generosity of the BBC?
:04:57. > :05:02.In the meantime, Twitter was awash with unflattering pictures of a
:05:03. > :05:09.red-faced Ed Balls giving his response. Some pictures were more
:05:10. > :05:14.than flattering than others. Is Ed Balls OK? Should we be worrying
:05:15. > :05:18.about him? He looks very stressed. There is nothing to worry about in
:05:19. > :05:21.terms of Ed balls and his analysis. He and Ed Miliband have been setting
:05:22. > :05:29.the pace in terms of the focus on the living standards crisis. It was
:05:30. > :05:33.very telling that there was not a mention of living standards last
:05:34. > :05:37.time, we got 12 mentions this time. Never mind what he was saying, by
:05:38. > :05:43.now everybody has a copy of the all-important paperwork. Time to
:05:44. > :05:48.hand over to number cruncher extraordinaire Paul Johnson from the
:05:49. > :05:50.Institute for Fiscal Studies. Of course it means that things are
:05:51. > :05:54.significantly better this year and next than we thought they would be
:05:55. > :05:58.just nine months ago. That has got to be good news. But it is also
:05:59. > :06:02.worth looking at the growth figures a few years out. They have been
:06:03. > :06:10.revised down a little bit. The reason is, the view of the office of
:06:11. > :06:13.budget response ability is that the long run has not really changed very
:06:14. > :06:17.much. We are getting a bit more growth now, but their view is that
:06:18. > :06:20.it is at the cost of a little bit of the growth we will expect in the
:06:21. > :06:24.years after the next general election. As the day draws to a
:06:25. > :06:28.close, the one place there has definitely been no growth is the
:06:29. > :06:37.graphics budget of my colleague Robert Preston. It's as good as it
:06:38. > :06:41.gets these days, I don't think the viewers will mind. It's very Sunday
:06:42. > :06:50.Politics, if I might say. That is very worrying.
:06:51. > :06:54.Was this a watershed for George Osborne? Was it a watershed for Ed
:06:55. > :06:59.Balls? We can all make the case that it is the wrong sort of recovery, a
:07:00. > :07:03.consumer led recovery. People are spending money they don't have. At
:07:04. > :07:07.the end of the day, it for George Osborne, it is growth, the first
:07:08. > :07:11.time he has been able to talk about growth. It allows him to control the
:07:12. > :07:15.baseline, the fiscal debate for the next generation. For Ed Balls,
:07:16. > :07:19.nearly not a good performance. But don't write this man off. Judging by
:07:20. > :07:27.Twitter, Iain Dale, no friend of it all is, said he did a good interview
:07:28. > :07:32.this morning on a rival TV channel. I feel the fact that the Tories hate
:07:33. > :07:38.Ed Balls so passionately is probably a good reason that they should hang
:07:39. > :07:42.onto him, in that Labour sends his effectiveness. May be the Tories
:07:43. > :07:48.hope that they hold on to him as well? A lot of people shouting at
:07:49. > :07:51.someone and mocking their speech impediment, that is politics that
:07:52. > :07:54.doesn't make me want to engage. The takeaway will be lots of people
:07:55. > :07:59.thinking that none of these people are people they like. Who is the
:08:00. > :08:04.main heckler on the Labour front bench West remarked I suppose he
:08:05. > :08:07.can't cast any stones. It would be easier to sympathise with him, if it
:08:08. > :08:14.were not that David Cameron went through a similar situation and John
:08:15. > :08:22.Bercow did not step in to stop the wall of noise. It was guaranteed a
:08:23. > :08:25.good happen to a Labour politician. It's painful to remove him because
:08:26. > :08:32.he had a Parliamentary following and he will kick up a fuss. I think he's
:08:33. > :08:37.much more pragmatic on issues like business than Ed Miliband. I'm told
:08:38. > :08:43.he wasn't keen on the energy price freeze. The problem with Ed Balls,
:08:44. > :08:47.to have the first words that you say, the Chancellor is in denial,
:08:48. > :08:52.after he is presiding over growth, it means nobody is listening to you.
:08:53. > :08:56.Who would replace him? Certainly not Alistair Darling, the side of the
:08:57. > :09:00.referendum and even afterwards. Ed Balls did get a roasting in the
:09:01. > :09:04.press and on Twitter. He seemed to disappear from public view following
:09:05. > :09:06.the Autumn Statement. But a little bird tells me he managed one
:09:07. > :09:11.interview this morning before he went off to an all-important piano
:09:12. > :09:15.recital this afternoon. Watch out, Jools Holland, he could be after
:09:16. > :09:20.your job. How bad was his performance on Thursday? Here is the
:09:21. > :09:27.Shadow Chancellor in action. The Chancellor is incomplete denial
:09:28. > :09:31.about the central facts that are defining this government in office.
:09:32. > :09:41.He used to say he would balance the books in 2015. Now he wants us to
:09:42. > :09:49.congratulate him for saying he will do it in 2019, Mr Speaker. With this
:09:50. > :09:52.government, it is clearly not just the badgers that move the goalposts.
:09:53. > :10:06.No mention of the universal credit in the statement. IDS, in deep
:10:07. > :10:09.shambles, Mr Speaker. Chris Leslie is the Shadow Chief Secretary to the
:10:10. > :10:17.Treasury. He is Ed Balls's deputy, in other words. Why do more and more
:10:18. > :10:22.of your Labour colleagues think that your boss is below the water line?
:10:23. > :10:26.I'm not sure I accept the premise of your suggestion. I don't think my
:10:27. > :10:30.colleagues believe that George Osborne has a superior argument I
:10:31. > :10:34.think Ed Balls will certainly trying his best, loud and clear, to make
:10:35. > :10:38.the case there is a cost of living crisis in this country and the
:10:39. > :10:42.Chancellor doesn't understand this. That was essentially the heat of the
:10:43. > :10:46.debate on the Autumn Statement day. One leading Labour MPs said to me
:10:47. > :10:50.that Ed Balls is always looking back, fixated with the rear-view
:10:51. > :10:55.mirror, that was the exact quote. A Labour MP told Sky News, Labour has
:10:56. > :11:00.a strong argument to make, unfortunately it was not made well
:11:01. > :11:09.in the chamber today. Quoting the Daily Mail, this is two poor
:11:10. > :11:15.performances. A quote that I can't use because it uses too many four
:11:16. > :11:19.letter words. Baroness Armstrong, speaking at Progress, a former
:11:20. > :11:22.Labour Cabinet minister, we are not sufficiently concerned about public
:11:23. > :11:27.spending, how we would pay for what we are talking about. Quite a
:11:28. > :11:33.battering? There were two sets of quotes you were giving. The couple
:11:34. > :11:36.were about the strategy for tackling public expenditure. I think it's
:11:37. > :11:42.fair that we talk about that. The rest were pretty unattributed,
:11:43. > :11:54.nameless sources. You have never given and of the record briefing? We
:11:55. > :11:57.have conversations off camera, but I don't think you have a wealth of
:11:58. > :12:02.evidence to say that somehow Ed Balls's arguments were wrong. He was
:12:03. > :12:06.making the point that, ultimately, it is a government that does not
:12:07. > :12:11.have its finger on the pulse about what most of your viewers are
:12:12. > :12:15.concerned about, that wages are being squeezed and prices are
:12:16. > :12:18.getting higher and higher. You have had time to study the Autumn
:12:19. > :12:27.Statement. What part of it does Labour disagree with? It is a very
:12:28. > :12:30.big question. I think the overall strategy the Autumn Statement is
:12:31. > :12:35.setting out does not deal with the fundamental problems in the economy.
:12:36. > :12:39.What measures do you disagree with? A lot of it is the absence of
:12:40. > :12:42.measures we would have put in if we were doing the Autumn Statement If
:12:43. > :12:45.you are going to deal with the cost of living crisis, you have got to
:12:46. > :12:51.get productivity levels up in our society. One of the best ways of
:12:52. > :12:54.doing that is on infrastructure We believe in bringing forward 's
:12:55. > :12:59.investment and housing, getting some of the fundamentals right in our
:13:00. > :13:11.economy. By planting, the business lending we have to do. We have seen
:13:12. > :13:14.a lamentable failing. There are big structural reforms that we need
:13:15. > :13:20.Ultimately, the public are concerned about the cost of living crisis
:13:21. > :13:24.That has got to be childcare help, a 10p starting rate of tax. Above
:13:25. > :13:29.all, and energy price freeze, which still this government are refusing
:13:30. > :13:35.to do. On Friday, you told me you supported the principle of a welfare
:13:36. > :13:38.cap. But you change bling claim the Chancellor's cap included pensions.
:13:39. > :13:43.You have now seen the figures, and it does not include pensions,
:13:44. > :13:48.correct? We do want a welfare cap. The government have said they are
:13:49. > :13:52.going to put more detail on this in the March budget. But it does not
:13:53. > :13:59.include pensions? We think they have a short term approach to the welfare
:14:00. > :14:03.cap. They put in some pension benefits. The state pension is not
:14:04. > :14:08.in the short-term plan because, as we believe, a triple lock is a good
:14:09. > :14:11.idea. In the longer term, if you are talking about structural welfare
:14:12. > :14:14.issues, you do have to think about pensions because they have to be
:14:15. > :14:19.sustainable if we are living longer. I think that is about the
:14:20. > :14:25.careful management. Let me show you what Ed Balls said on this programme
:14:26. > :14:28.at the start of the summer. As for pensioners, I think this is a real
:14:29. > :14:32.question. George Osborne is going to announce his cap in two weeks time.
:14:33. > :14:37.I don't know if he will exclude pension spending or including. Our
:14:38. > :14:42.plan is to include it. Pension spending would be included in the
:14:43. > :14:46.welfare cap? That is our plan, exactly what I just said. Over the
:14:47. > :14:51.long-term, if you have a serious welfare cap structural welfare
:14:52. > :14:54.issues, over 20, 30, 40 year period, you can't say that we will
:14:55. > :15:02.not work and pensions as part of that. Pensions would be part of the
:15:03. > :15:09.Labour cap? In the longer term. What is the longer term? If you win 015?
:15:10. > :15:13.We want to stick with the triple lock on the pension, that is the
:15:14. > :15:17.Government approach to their short-term welfare cap. In the
:15:18. > :15:23.longer term, for example, on the winter fuel allowance, we should not
:15:24. > :15:26.necessarily be... There are lots of benefits... I understand that, I am
:15:27. > :15:32.talking about the basic state pension, is that part of your
:15:33. > :15:42.welfare cap or not? In a 20, 30 40 year frame... Even you will not be
:15:43. > :15:47.around in government, then. You are writing me off already. You have to
:15:48. > :15:50.focus on welfare changes, pensions have to be affordable as part of
:15:51. > :15:54.that. It's dangerous to say, well, if you are going to have a serious
:15:55. > :16:00.welfare cap, we should not look at pensions cost. It would be
:16:01. > :16:06.irresponsible. Will pensions be part of the cap from 2015 until 2020 if
:16:07. > :16:14.Labour is in power? In our long term cap we have to make sure... I'm
:16:15. > :16:15.talking about 2015-16. We haven t seen the proposition the Government
:16:16. > :16:29.has put before us. You claim people of ?1600 worse off
:16:30. > :16:33.under the coalition. That is true when you compare to pay and prices.
:16:34. > :16:39.Can you confirm that calculation does not include the ?700 tax cut
:16:40. > :16:44.from raising the income tax threshold, huge savings on mortgages
:16:45. > :16:48.because of low interest or the freezing of council tax? It doesn't
:16:49. > :16:53.include the tax and benefit changes. If you do want to look at
:16:54. > :16:59.those, last year, the ISS said they could be making people worse off. It
:17:00. > :17:09.might not include those factors The VAT increase, tax credit cuts, child
:17:10. > :17:13.benefit cuts, they all add up. My understanding is that the ISS
:17:14. > :17:19.figures have said people are ?8 1 worse off if you look at the tax and
:17:20. > :17:24.benefit changes since 2010. You have to look at wages and prices. The ISS
:17:25. > :17:28.confirmed our approach was broadly the right way of assessing what is
:17:29. > :17:36.happening. The Chancellor was saying, real household disposable
:17:37. > :17:42.incomes are rising. He is completely out of touch. Can you sum up the
:17:43. > :17:46.macro economic policy for Labour? Invest in the future, make sure we
:17:47. > :17:49.have the right approach for the long-term politicking. Tackle the
:17:50. > :17:53.cost of living crisis people are facing.
:17:54. > :17:59.Now, let's talk to the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Sajid
:18:00. > :18:06.Javid. Discovery, underpinned by rising
:18:07. > :18:11.house prices, increasing personal debt, do you accept that is
:18:12. > :18:16.unsustainable? I accept the OBE are also said the
:18:17. > :18:24.reason why this country is facing more these challenges -- OBR.
:18:25. > :18:30.That is because we went through a Labour recession, the worst we have
:18:31. > :18:37.seen in 100 years. But do you accept that a recovery underpinned by these
:18:38. > :18:42.things I have just read out isn t sustainable? We set out a long-term
:18:43. > :18:48.plan for recovery, and again this week. We have shown with the tough
:18:49. > :18:52.decisions we have made already, the country can enjoy a recovery. There
:18:53. > :18:58.are still a lot of difficult decisions. The biggest risk are
:18:59. > :19:07.Labour's plans. The March projections work at for those - for
:19:08. > :19:13.both business investment and exports. Suddenly it is expected to
:19:14. > :19:18.rise 5% next year, a 10% turnaround in investment. How is it credible? I
:19:19. > :19:22.have been in business before politics. Any business person
:19:23. > :19:27.listening will know, when you have gone through a recession, the
:19:28. > :19:33.deepest in 100 years, it will hit investment, profits, you can't make
:19:34. > :19:35.plans again until you have confidence in the economy. That is
:19:36. > :19:46.what this country is seeing now under this government. This is an
:19:47. > :19:51.assumption made independently. The fall in business investment is
:19:52. > :19:57.because of the recession. The forecast increases, 5% next year,
:19:58. > :20:03.and so on, it is based on the independent forecast. Based on fact.
:20:04. > :20:11.If you look at the investment plans of companies, this week, the
:20:12. > :20:16.Chancellor went to JCB, Jaguar Land Rover has plans to create more
:20:17. > :20:20.jobs, these investment plans are coming through now because of the
:20:21. > :20:24.confidence generated by this government, such as the cut in
:20:25. > :20:32.corporation tax which Labour would increase. Are the export forecasts
:20:33. > :20:38.more credible? The 15 years, our share of world trade decline.
:20:39. > :20:44.Suddenly starting next year, it stops falling. That's not credible.
:20:45. > :20:52.I worked in finance the 20 years. I have yet to find any forecast which
:20:53. > :20:57.is fully right. Under Labour, we would have forecasts made by Gordon
:20:58. > :21:01.Brown who would announce he would hit all his targets. Now we have an
:21:02. > :21:08.independent system. Do you accept, if exports or
:21:09. > :21:14.business investment do not pick up, then a purely consumer led recovery
:21:15. > :21:18.is not sustainable? We need more than a consumer led recovery. We
:21:19. > :21:25.need consumer investment to go up. On Xbox, it is noticeable that
:21:26. > :21:30.experts are primarily down because the markets we trade with, the
:21:31. > :21:34.eurozone markets, are depressed Many have just come out of
:21:35. > :21:42.recession. Or they are still in recession. If you look at exports to
:21:43. > :21:49.non-EU countries, they are up 3 %. 120% to China. 100% to Russia.
:21:50. > :21:56.Will you keep the triple lock for the state pension beyond 2015? Yes,
:21:57. > :22:00.long term. That's why it is not part of our welfare cap. Chris Leslie
:22:01. > :22:10.cannot answer that question. It is straightforward.
:22:11. > :22:16.House prices are now rising ten times faster than average earnings.
:22:17. > :22:21.That's not good. House prices are rising, partly reflecting recovery.
:22:22. > :22:25.Ten times faster than average earnings, how can people afford to
:22:26. > :22:31.buy homes if it carries on? What you would hope, this is the evidence, if
:22:32. > :22:37.you look at the plans of the month companies, they are planning new
:22:38. > :22:41.homes which will mean that, as this demand spurs that investment, more
:22:42. > :22:45.homes will come about. We need to give people the means to buy those
:22:46. > :23:34.homes. We have introduced the help to buy scheme. I accept the OBR says
:23:35. > :23:50.it will start rising again but as household debt rises again Petr Cech
:23:51. > :23:55.reduces, -- as household debt reduces, we need to make sure there
:23:56. > :23:59.are checks in place. Wages have not been rising in real terms for quite
:24:00. > :24:15.some time. Over the next five years, even as the economy grows, by about
:24:16. > :24:21.15% according the OBR to the OBR -- but people will not benefit. These
:24:22. > :24:27.hard-working families will not share in the recovery. What is the best
:24:28. > :24:31.way to help those families? The government doesn't set wages. What
:24:32. > :24:41.we can do is influence the overall economy. We don't have a magic
:24:42. > :24:45.lever. Wages have been stagnating for five years. When will people get
:24:46. > :24:51.a proper salary? The best way for wage growth is a growing economy,
:24:52. > :24:57.more jobs. We have more people employed in Britain today than at
:24:58. > :25:02.any time in our history. The biggest risk to recovery is if we let Labour
:25:03. > :25:06.into the Treasury with more spending and more debt. Which got us into
:25:07. > :25:14.this trouble. By whatever measure you care to choose, would people be
:25:15. > :25:21.better off come the 20 15th election than they were in 2010? Yes, they
:25:22. > :25:25.will be. Look at jobs. Already more people employed than at any other
:25:26. > :25:29.time in history. Will they be better off? The best way for anyone to
:25:30. > :25:37.raise their living standards is access to a growing job market. But
:25:38. > :25:45.will they be better off? I believe people will be. Compared to 201 .
:25:46. > :25:48.Yes. In terms of take-home pay. This is a credible measure.
:25:49. > :25:53.Now, what do you think the Education Secretary, Michael Gove, was like at
:25:54. > :25:56.school? Hard-working? Hand always up? Top of the class? Well, if he
:25:57. > :25:59.wasn't passionate about education then, he is now. In fact, since he
:26:00. > :26:07.took office, it seems he hasn't stopped working very hard indeed.
:26:08. > :26:10.When the coalition came to power, Michael Gove evoked Mao, saying they
:26:11. > :26:13.were on a long march to reform education. Just like Mao, they faced
:26:14. > :26:19.a baby boom, so pledged ?5 billion for new school places. They extended
:26:20. > :26:24.Labour's academy programme. There's now about 3,000 in England. But
:26:25. > :26:27.then, they marched even further creating free schools run by
:26:28. > :26:34.parents, funded by taxpayers. 1 4 have opened so far. The schools
:26:35. > :26:36.admission code was changed, to give parents more choice.
:26:37. > :26:40.And a pupil premium was introduced, currently, an extra ?900 funding for
:26:41. > :26:44.each disadvantaged child. An overhaul of the national
:26:45. > :26:49.curriculum provoked criticism. Chairman Gove mocked detractors as
:26:50. > :26:54."bad academia". But exam reforms didn't quite go to plan. Although
:26:55. > :26:58.GCSEs got harder, plans to replace A-levels had to be abandoned.
:26:59. > :27:04.Ultimately, the true test of these reforms will be what happens in the
:27:05. > :27:07.classroom. The person in charge of making sure those classrooms are up
:27:08. > :27:10.to scratch in England is the Chief Inspector Of Schools, head of
:27:11. > :27:16.Ofsted, Michael Wilshaw, who joins me now.
:27:17. > :27:20.Over the past 15 years, we have doubled spending on schools even
:27:21. > :27:26.allowing for inflation. By international standards, we are
:27:27. > :27:30.stagnating, why? I said last year that mediocrity had settled into the
:27:31. > :27:42.system. Too many children were coasting in schools, which is why we
:27:43. > :27:47.changed the grading structure, we removed that awful word,
:27:48. > :27:50.satisfactory. Saying that good is now the only acceptable standard and
:27:51. > :27:54.schools had a limited time in which to get to that. We are seeing
:27:55. > :27:59.gradually, it is difficult to say this in the week we have had the
:28:00. > :28:06.OECD report. Things have gradually improved. I will come onto that in a
:28:07. > :28:11.minute. Explain this. International comparisons show us flat-lining or
:28:12. > :28:16.even falling in some subjects, including science. For 20 years our
:28:17. > :28:21.domestic exam results just got better and better. Was this a piece
:28:22. > :28:25.of fiction fed to us by the educational establishment, was there
:28:26. > :28:31.a cover-up? There is no question there has grade inflation. I speak
:28:32. > :28:36.as an ex-headteacher who saw that in examinations. Perceptual state is
:28:37. > :28:46.actually doing something about that. Most good heads will say that is
:28:47. > :28:51.about time. We have to be credible. Do politicians and educationalists
:28:52. > :28:55.conspire in this grade inflation? It might suit politicians to say things
:28:56. > :29:00.are going up every year. As a head, I knew a lot of the exams youngsters
:29:01. > :29:09.were sitting were not up to scratch. The latest OECD study places us 36th
:29:10. > :29:14.for maths, 23rd reading, slipping down to 21st in science. Yet,
:29:15. > :29:19.Ofsted, your organisation, designates 80% of schools as good or
:29:20. > :29:24.outstanding. That's another fiction. This year, we have. If we see this
:29:25. > :29:27.level of progress, it has been a remarkable progress over the last
:29:28. > :29:34.years since we changed our grading structure, then... In a year,
:29:35. > :29:39.absolutely. We have better teachers coming into our school system.
:29:40. > :29:43.Better leaders. Better schools. The big challenge for our country is
:29:44. > :29:44.making sure that progress is maintained which will eventually
:29:45. > :29:55.translate into better outcomes. These figures are pretty much
:29:56. > :29:59.up-to-date. Are you saying within a year 80% of the schools are good
:30:00. > :30:04.enough? All of the schools we upgraded have had better grades in
:30:05. > :30:09.GCSE and grade 2. We have to make sure that is maintained. The
:30:10. > :30:13.Government has based its reforms on similar reforms in Sweden. In
:30:14. > :30:16.opposition they were endlessly going to Stockholm to find out how it was
:30:17. > :30:24.done. Swedish schools are doing even worse than ours in the tables. Why
:30:25. > :30:28.are we copying failure? The secretary of state believes, and I
:30:29. > :30:33.actually believe, as somebody who has come from an academy model, that
:30:34. > :30:36.if you hand power and resources you hand autonomy to the people on the
:30:37. > :30:42.ground, to the people in the classroom, in the corridors, in the
:30:43. > :30:46.playgrounds, things work. If you allow the great monoliths that used
:30:47. > :30:51.to have responsibility for education in the past to take control again,
:30:52. > :30:54.you will see a reverse in standards. You have got to actually empower
:30:55. > :31:00.those people that make the difference. That is why autonomy and
:31:01. > :31:03.freedom is important. We spent a lot of money moving what were local
:31:04. > :31:07.authority schools to become academies and new free school czar
:31:08. > :31:10.being set up as well. When the academies are pretty much the same
:31:11. > :31:14.level of autonomy, the free school is maybe a little bit more, the
:31:15. > :31:19.evidence we have had so far is that they don't really perform any better
:31:20. > :31:25.than local authority schools? Indeed, Encore GCSE subjects, they
:31:26. > :31:28.might even be doing worse? These are early days. We will say more about
:31:29. > :31:32.this on weapons they when we produce the annual report. The sponsored
:31:33. > :31:36.academies that took over the worst schools in the country, in the most
:31:37. > :31:41.difficult circumstances, in the most disadvantaged communities, are doing
:31:42. > :31:49.much better now. What about GCSE? They are doing GCSE equivalents the
:31:50. > :31:53.lass academic subjects question my cull OK, but they are doing better
:31:54. > :31:59.than previous schools. If you look at the top performing nations in the
:32:00. > :32:09.world, they focus on the quality of teaching. The best graduates coming
:32:10. > :32:12.to education. They professionally develop them. They make sure they
:32:13. > :32:16.spot the brightest talents and get them into positions as soon as
:32:17. > :32:22.possible. We have got to do the same if we are going to catch up with
:32:23. > :32:26.those jurisdictions. This isn't just a British problem. It seems to be a
:32:27. > :32:30.European problem. The East Asian countries now dominate the top of
:32:31. > :32:35.the tables. What's the most important lesson we should learn
:32:36. > :32:39.from East Asia? Attitudes to work. We need to make sure that we invest
:32:40. > :32:45.in good teachers, good leaders. We have to make sure that students have
:32:46. > :32:49.the right attitudes to work. It s no good getting good people into the
:32:50. > :32:53.classroom and then seeing them part of teaching by bad behaviour,
:32:54. > :33:00.disaffected youngsters and poor leadership. We see young teachers
:33:01. > :33:05.doing well for a time and then being put off teaching and leaving from
:33:06. > :33:08.that sort of culture in our schools. Are you a cheerleader for government
:33:09. > :33:13.education policy rather than independent inspectors? I am
:33:14. > :33:19.independent, Ofsted is independent. I believe we are saying the right
:33:20. > :33:23.things on standards. The Association of teachers and lecturers say you
:33:24. > :33:27.are an arm of government. The NUT has called for your resignation
:33:28. > :33:31.Another wants to abolish or Inspectorate. Have you become a
:33:32. > :33:36.pariah amongst teaching unions? If we are challenging schools to become
:33:37. > :33:42.better, that is our job, we will carry on doing that. I am not going
:33:43. > :33:45.to preside over the status quo. We will challenge the system to do
:33:46. > :33:48.better, we will challenge schools and colleges to do better. We will
:33:49. > :33:52.also challenge government when we think they are going wrong. Many
:33:53. > :33:56.people in the education establishment think your primary
:33:57. > :34:03.purpose is to do the Government s bidding by shepherding schools into
:34:04. > :34:07.becoming academies. Not true at all. You are a big supporter of
:34:08. > :34:11.academies? Yes, I believe the people that do the business in schools are
:34:12. > :34:15.the people that are free to do what is necessary to raise standards I
:34:16. > :34:23.am a big supporter of autonomy in the school system. But where we see
:34:24. > :34:29.academies Vale, where we see free schools fail, we will say so. The
:34:30. > :34:35.study does not find much evidence that competition and choice raise
:34:36. > :34:38.standards, but it does go with you and say that strong school
:34:39. > :34:42.leadership, coupled with autonomy, can make a difference. Can somebody
:34:43. > :34:46.with no experience in education be in charge of a school? A lot of hot
:34:47. > :34:50.air has been expounded on the issue of whether teachers should be
:34:51. > :34:53.qualified or not. If qualified teacher status was the gold
:34:54. > :35:01.standard, why is it that one in three teachers, one in three lessons
:35:02. > :35:05.that will observe are not good enough. Taught by qualified
:35:06. > :35:10.teachers. I've not yet met a headteacher that has not appointed
:35:11. > :35:14.by qualified staff when they cannot get qualified teachers. Their job is
:35:15. > :35:17.to make sure they get accredited as soon as possible and come up to
:35:18. > :35:22.scratch in the classroom. Do you support the use of unqualified
:35:23. > :35:26.teachers? I do. I have done it. If I could not get a maths, physics or
:35:27. > :35:29.modern languages teacher and I thought somebody straight from
:35:30. > :35:32.university, without qualified teachers start this, that they could
:35:33. > :35:36.communicate well with youngsters, I would get that person into the
:35:37. > :35:41.classroom and get them accredited if they delivered the goods. If we are
:35:42. > :35:43.going to allow schools to have more autonomy and not be accountable to
:35:44. > :35:50.local authorities, free schools academies, don't you have to do ..
:35:51. > :35:54.New entrants will be coming into the market, the educational marketplace.
:35:55. > :36:02.Do you not have to act more quickly when it is clear, and there has been
:36:03. > :36:06.examined recently, where it is clearly going badly wrong and
:36:07. > :36:10.children's education at risk? Absolutely. I made a point to the
:36:11. > :36:12.secretary of state and it is something I will talk more about
:36:13. > :36:16.over the coming year. We need to be in school is much more often. If a
:36:17. > :36:21.school fails at the moment, or underperforms, goes into this new
:36:22. > :36:26.category, Her Majesty 's inspectors stay with that institution until it
:36:27. > :36:30.improves. Sometimes we don't see a school for five or seven years. That
:36:31. > :36:33.is wrong. My argument is that Ofsted should pay a much greater part in
:36:34. > :36:39.monitoring the performance of schools between those inspections.
:36:40. > :36:45.Are you enjoying it? It is a tough job. Are you enjoying it? This is a
:36:46. > :36:50.tough job, but I enjoy it. Sometimes.
:36:51. > :36:54.You are watching Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes,
:36:55. > :37:02.Diane Abbott will be joining us And we will
:37:03. > :37:06.Hello, I'm Arif Ansari. Coming up in the North West: Thanks for the help,
:37:07. > :37:14.but not the label. We get a rare look at the work being
:37:15. > :37:19.done with our "troubled families". The Mac I did not think that was my
:37:20. > :37:22.category, I just thought I was someone in need of help.
:37:23. > :37:25.And joining me this week, the Liberal Democrat MP for Manchester
:37:26. > :37:33.Withington, John Leech and the Labour MP for Bolton South East
:37:34. > :37:37.Yasmin Qureshi. Welcome. John, an important week because we had the
:37:38. > :37:42.mini budget, the Autumn statement. The government seems to be saying,
:37:43. > :37:46.the economy is recovering but at a much slower rate than the word
:37:47. > :37:50.previously promised. That is absolutely true, but at the same
:37:51. > :37:54.time the forecasts are now improving again in the right direction. There
:37:55. > :38:00.are some great things that came out of the Autumn statement, whether it
:38:01. > :38:07.be to do with the young unemployed or small and medium`sized businesses
:38:08. > :38:11.on this rates, and helping support young people with national insurance
:38:12. > :38:15.contributions. A lot of great news on Thursday. Yasmin, does Labour now
:38:16. > :38:25.accept that the government's economic plan is cutting the deficit
:38:26. > :38:30.very hard was the right thing to do? The Autumn statement did nothing in
:38:31. > :38:33.terms of generating in climate, it cut the business rate but that is
:38:34. > :38:37.something that Labour has been arguing for 40 very long time, to
:38:38. > :38:44.even freeze the business rate. You like that bit, at least. No more
:38:45. > :38:50.than 2%, but we set fees it completely and create around one
:38:51. > :38:57.million new start`up jobs. We set the agenda on this side the agenda
:38:58. > :39:00.on their Sibelius and partly to say. There was nothing about the building
:39:01. > :39:04.of homes in creating new jobs. The thing about families being able to
:39:05. > :39:10.go back to work, in terms of having more free care. Let's have a quick
:39:11. > :39:17.look at what the Chancellor had to say about the north`west. This week
:39:18. > :39:20.we are announcing ?1 billion of loans to unblock large housing
:39:21. > :39:25.developments on sites in Manchester and Leeds and across the country.
:39:26. > :39:30.The new tax allowance to encourage investment in shale gas, that
:39:31. > :39:36.harvest tax rate on early puppets. Will the government's popularity and
:39:37. > :39:42.your own party's popularity pick`up by the economy recovers? I would
:39:43. > :39:47.hope so. We have taken a hat in popularity as a result of going into
:39:48. > :39:50.coalition with the Conservatives, in the north`west the Conservatives are
:39:51. > :39:53.unpopular but people are beginning to recognise that we went into
:39:54. > :39:57.coalition for the rate reasons, to try and sort out the economy, and
:39:58. > :40:03.hopefully the economy is now reaping the Billiton 's. `` reaping the
:40:04. > :40:08.benefits. I think there's Autumn statement has done a lot to help
:40:09. > :40:14.employment, whether it be a reduction in business rates for
:40:15. > :40:19.small businesses, whether it be half rates for an empty shop being
:40:20. > :40:22.occupied by a new retail outlet or whether it be cutting national
:40:23. > :40:24.insurance contributions for young people because there are still too
:40:25. > :40:30.many young people unemployed. Yasmin, how much has it changed
:40:31. > :40:34.things politically? I do not think it has changed things at all
:40:35. > :40:39.politically, they talk about economic recovery but actually it is
:40:40. > :40:42.a number crunchers recover, he recovered on paper but not in
:40:43. > :40:49.reality. You cannot just dismiss that, because if the economy goes
:40:50. > :40:54.from 0.6% growth to 2.4% growth that means more jobs. It does, but they
:40:55. > :40:59.have created more zero`hour contracts, more passing jobs, very
:41:00. > :41:05.low paid jobs, the average working family has lost around ?1600 per
:41:06. > :41:09.year. Many low paid jobs. Let's move on. As we know, councils are
:41:10. > :41:12.struggling to balance the books But it's the books themselves which have
:41:13. > :41:15.toppled over in Sefton. The council's closed six of its 13
:41:16. > :41:18.libraries. And this week rejected offers from community groups to take
:41:19. > :41:22.over two of them. In a moment I ll be asking the leader of the council
:41:23. > :41:25.whatever happened to the Big Society? But first, our very own
:41:26. > :41:30.bookworm Claire Hamilton has the story.
:41:31. > :41:35.This library in Crosby has been lending books for over 100 years,
:41:36. > :41:39.funded by American philanthropist Andrew Carnegie, described as the
:41:40. > :41:43.wretched man in the world that the time, the council provided the land
:41:44. > :41:48.and local merchants bought the books. This week when its last. To
:41:49. > :41:53.the left was the magazine room. . Beginning of the group hopes to take
:41:54. > :41:58.over running it but they have been turned down. Throughout the process
:41:59. > :42:02.it has been an adversarial nature, the council has been throwing
:42:03. > :42:04.obstacles in our way every time and changing your opinion of what was
:42:05. > :42:11.required that what was being promised. The council say plans to
:42:12. > :42:15.keep this grade two listed building running as a library were based on
:42:16. > :42:20.hopes and expectations, with no confirmation of financial support.
:42:21. > :42:24.Finances have meant that since 011 19 libraries and 12 mobile libraries
:42:25. > :42:29.have closed across the north`west, amenity groups have successfully
:42:30. > :42:35.taken over 12 facilities but the pressure is not. Eating libraries
:42:36. > :42:37.plus ten mobile libraries are under threat. The council are still going
:42:38. > :42:42.to put insignificant amounts of money to make the own survival, and
:42:43. > :42:46.if that goes wrong the council will end up spending more money, not less
:42:47. > :42:51.if it goes ahead with the transfer. The council must be very careful.
:42:52. > :42:56.Immunity plans to run in the library in Sefton were also rejected. They
:42:57. > :42:59.are not getting as any credit for our experience of running businesses
:43:00. > :43:04.where anybody setting up a new business would start with capital
:43:05. > :43:08.cash amount and then move forward. Good news for one charity, their
:43:09. > :43:12.plan to take over the Ainsdale building will move forward but it is
:43:13. > :43:14.not clear how big a part in a lending library will play in the new
:43:15. > :43:17.project. And we're joined from Liverpool by
:43:18. > :43:24.the leader of Sefton Council, Peter Dowd. Thank you for being on the
:43:25. > :43:31.programme. Why did you detect the two community bids? We had the
:43:32. > :43:34.process starting early this year to, to gateways they were called in
:43:35. > :43:39.some groups got the first date and others didn't. The second time the
:43:40. > :43:43.groups did not get through the gateway. We have clear criteria
:43:44. > :43:47.They were based on a number of factors and regrettably some of the
:43:48. > :43:53.groups that not get through that process. There were only two in it,
:43:54. > :43:57.what was the problem? There were four originally, 12, one got through
:43:58. > :44:02.and to did not. We did not get through because they did not fulfil
:44:03. > :44:07.the criteria in terms of primarily the finance, to begin with, and
:44:08. > :44:11.there were other factors that came into it, staffing and
:44:12. > :44:15.sustainability, so there was an objective assessment set`up and
:44:16. > :44:19.regrettably he did not get through. Surely it is better to have given
:44:20. > :44:23.them a chance that you have shut down the libraries completely? I
:44:24. > :44:29.think what we have a responsibility to do is to ensure that when
:44:30. > :44:33.organisations do take over public buildings that they are in the
:44:34. > :44:37.position to sustain that. What we wanted them to be able to do is have
:44:38. > :44:41.a sustainable and feasible alternative. It was not sustainable
:44:42. > :44:46.as it was because you have shut them down, so with them at least there
:44:47. > :44:49.was a chance of them staying open. I disagree and that is what the
:44:50. > :44:53.criteria and assessment shows, that this would not be practical. One got
:44:54. > :44:57.through so that proves and shows that the council was quite prepared.
:44:58. > :45:03.If it was a sustainable and feasible, we would have allowed it
:45:04. > :45:06.to happen. The idea that we actually rejected it out of hand or that we
:45:07. > :45:10.have not given groups the opportunity is not correct.
:45:11. > :45:15.Unfortunately that is what they feel because both groups have said that
:45:16. > :45:19.Sefton Council, returning I presume to Sefton council officers, were
:45:20. > :45:25.obstructive rather than helpful Is that concerning? I disagree that
:45:26. > :45:29.they were obstructive, the disc `` the discussions went on for many
:45:30. > :45:32.months, and the council was prepared to set aside money towards these
:45:33. > :45:40.groups carrying on, so I disagree that it was obstructive. In the case
:45:41. > :45:46.of the entry library, the parish council there was offering ?20, 00.
:45:47. > :45:51.`` in tree library. That parish council is particularly angry that
:45:52. > :45:53.the offer was not taken up. That was one of the factors taken into
:45:54. > :45:56.account, they could not guarantee that one of the factors taken into
:45:57. > :45:58.account, they could not guarantee that ongoing guarantee that the
:45:59. > :46:02.funding would be there, we made the decision, taking all of the factors
:46:03. > :46:07.into account including their offer, that it was not sustainable. The
:46:08. > :46:10.ability for them to run it also was predicated on the fact that the
:46:11. > :46:14.council would have given them over ?50,000 capital. The tag and
:46:15. > :46:19.assessment, we did it as objectively as he possibly could and two of the
:46:20. > :46:24.groups did not succeed. Let me pick up with John Leech. In my own
:46:25. > :46:30.constituency, Bernard library was threatened with closure. It is
:46:31. > :46:33.closed but it is now being run by local people and hopefully it will
:46:34. > :46:40.be a great success. The council has agreed to let local people... Should
:46:41. > :46:43.Sefton have allowed them to have a go? I would have thought that it
:46:44. > :46:47.would have been reasonable to at least give local people a chance to
:46:48. > :46:51.prove that they could do it is and prove that they could keep it open.
:46:52. > :46:56.Because an open library, even if it is open for another 12 months or
:46:57. > :46:58.another two years, is better than a close lightly. The main point that
:46:59. > :47:03.Councillor don't would make is that they would not be closing any
:47:04. > :47:08.libraries were not `` will it not for your government cutting funds to
:47:09. > :47:13.local government. I cannot speak specific witty Sefton but in the
:47:14. > :47:17.case of Manchester I would argue very strongly that Manchester could
:47:18. > :47:21.have found ?42,000 to keep in its library open and it is about the
:47:22. > :47:25.council's priorities. The famed money when they want to find money,
:47:26. > :47:29.whether it is ?2 million from land in the city centre. We although that
:47:30. > :47:38.local government budgets are being squeezed. Absolutely, budgets are
:47:39. > :47:42.tight but it is about priorities. Manchester has plenty of resellers
:47:43. > :47:45.`` plenty of reserves but the famed money for their pet projects.
:47:46. > :47:50.Yasmin, should local community groups be allowed to have the
:47:51. > :47:53.opportunity to run libraries? Of course they should be but only if
:47:54. > :47:57.they can make a proper economic case for running it. As has been
:47:58. > :48:03.mentioned by the leader of Sefton Council, I do not at the end and out
:48:04. > :48:07.of the bed they have but we saw that it was not financially possible to
:48:08. > :48:12.do so. Someone has been monies or the capacity and ability to run it
:48:13. > :48:15.then they should be given the chance but I do not understand that the
:48:16. > :48:18.council refused to do that, they just said that in the case of the
:48:19. > :48:23.groups that its bid for it, they were not able to do the job. You
:48:24. > :48:29.feel comfortable with that? I am not from Sefton. But from the council
:48:30. > :48:33.are seeing here, they seem to have made a rational decision and they
:48:34. > :48:37.have decided what is right for their particular banner. They have not
:48:38. > :48:40.given them a chance. Let me pick up on that issue of Councillor Peter
:48:41. > :48:47.Dowd. I am sure you have John Leech saying that, what was the problem
:48:48. > :48:51.with at least giving them a chance? Even if it failed later, at least
:48:52. > :48:56.they would have tried. We would not be here in the first place as
:48:57. > :48:59.government had not cut the council by millions of pounds. It is
:49:00. > :49:03.important to get this into context. The bottom line is we have to make
:49:04. > :49:07.difficult decisions because his government cut us by millions of
:49:08. > :49:09.pounds. We have had to make difficult decisions in that context
:49:10. > :49:14.that one of those decisions is to close libraries. However, we have
:49:15. > :49:17.given those clips the capacity and opportunity to bid to continue to
:49:18. > :49:23.run and unfortunately they were not able to do that. I need to ASCII
:49:24. > :49:27.again because I am not clear as to what would be the problem of
:49:28. > :49:33.offering them the opportunity to go for it. If it feels it feels but at
:49:34. > :49:37.least they tried. At the end of the day the council passes over public
:49:38. > :49:41.property and public assets to groups who may or may not be able to run it
:49:42. > :49:46.must be done in a rational way. It has to be done in an objective way.
:49:47. > :49:50.If we did have the building over and it closed down in six or 12 months
:49:51. > :49:55.and it was, it did not succeed, we would be criticised for not making
:49:56. > :49:59.sure that this was a robust process. That is what we have tried to do.
:50:00. > :50:02.One of those good has been able to show that they have a robust process
:50:03. > :50:06.in the bin given the opportunity to do it. Where we can give local
:50:07. > :50:10.organisations the opportunity, we will. In the very much indeed.
:50:11. > :50:12.After the riots in 2011 the government started an ambitious
:50:13. > :50:15.scheme to help 120,000 so`called "troubled families". Since then lots
:50:16. > :50:18.of work has been done mainly supporting parents. But of course
:50:19. > :50:21.it's sensitive and not done in public. But we've been able to
:50:22. > :50:25.follow the team working in Cheshire West. Stuart Pollitt's been finding
:50:26. > :50:26.out who the families are and whether they really do fall under one
:50:27. > :50:45.umbrella. The phrase troubled families, one of
:50:46. > :50:49.those sayings that politicians love, applies a something vague that you
:50:50. > :50:55.cannot quite put your finger on You know the phrase I mean. These
:50:56. > :51:00.hard`working people. We hold the liberal centre. High stakes for
:51:01. > :51:02.working people. Those are the ones. As for troubled families, who are
:51:03. > :51:05.they? Now the only trouble for Amiee and
:51:06. > :51:09.her daughters is deciding who gets to do the dishes. A few years ago
:51:10. > :51:16.she had a good job and strong family but had also become a victim of
:51:17. > :51:20.domestic abuse. I was not coping. I thought I was but my functioning
:51:21. > :51:24.mechanisms were slowly shutting down, really. I was not being a good
:51:25. > :51:32.mother to the children. That's where someone like Gill steps in. We see
:51:33. > :51:37.dozens of families so my job is to be the length person to make sure
:51:38. > :51:40.they get irate agencies involved. The parents does not have to go
:51:41. > :51:45.through problems over and over again to different agencies, she only has
:51:46. > :51:49.to see it once. Help jumped on me, I did not know where to begin. I would
:51:50. > :51:51.not be the person I am today if I did not receive the help. The
:51:52. > :51:54.Government originally defined troubled families as those with all
:51:55. > :51:56.of these problems. An involvement in youth crime or anti`social
:51:57. > :52:00.behaviour. Children excluded or playing truant from school. An adult
:52:01. > :52:04.on out`of`work benefits. And costing the public sector large sums in
:52:05. > :52:07.responding to their problem. That criteria has been extended to others
:52:08. > :52:18.like Amiee but it's a label she doesn't like. As soon as I feared
:52:19. > :52:23.that troubled person, I think, maybe alcohol or drugs or abuse, I did not
:52:24. > :52:27.think that was my category, I just thought I was someone in need of
:52:28. > :52:32.help. There are those who believe that the scheme must take into
:52:33. > :52:36.account wider issues. We must look at housing problems, questions about
:52:37. > :52:41.poverty, questions of disability and mental health problems. The trouble
:52:42. > :52:44.families agenda that the government puts forward does little to do that.
:52:45. > :52:47.So how many so called troubled families are there in the region? In
:52:48. > :52:51.total around 10,000, just 300 in Cheshire West and Chester but 1 500
:52:52. > :53:01.in Manchester and more than 3,0 0 in Liverpool. To try and help some of
:53:02. > :53:04.those 3,000 and more they're hiring workers to carry out early
:53:05. > :53:14.intervention in partnership with primary schools. We know our
:53:15. > :53:17.families and at the grassroots level we can target that intervention we
:53:18. > :53:22.can use that resource flexibly when it is needed rather than waiting for
:53:23. > :53:25.that we source to come along. A bit of Christmas spirit's broken out in
:53:26. > :53:28.Manchester where the Labour council's been praised by Eric
:53:29. > :53:32.Pickles for its work with 1,500 families but, with the scheme due to
:53:33. > :53:41.end in 2016, there are concerns about the future. This is not a
:53:42. > :53:47.problem we will have eliminated by 2016, so I think we do need to have
:53:48. > :53:50.an agreement from government for an ongoing programme. You would expect
:53:51. > :53:55.it to be smaller but it will be needed. Have you been getting the
:53:56. > :53:58.resources you need? In the short term, yes, the long`term, no. And
:53:59. > :54:01.with the figures showing only a quarter of those identified have had
:54:02. > :54:09.their fortunes turned around will this scheme get the time, as well as
:54:10. > :54:15.the money, to finish the job. Yasmin, what is your experience of
:54:16. > :54:22.this programme? Bolton has around 850 families who need assistance in
:54:23. > :54:25.the council has actually been doing really good work with the families.
:54:26. > :54:29.They have been able to help many families with the issues of for
:54:30. > :54:35.example, truancy, children committing crimes or parental issues
:54:36. > :54:39.and things like that. Where they have been less successful has been
:54:40. > :54:44.in terms of being able to find jobs for the adult members, there have
:54:45. > :54:47.been cases where they have been unable to do that successfully. That
:54:48. > :54:51.is not the councils fault, it is more to do with the economy
:54:52. > :54:54.generally and issues of jobs. You think it is a shortcoming of the
:54:55. > :54:59.programme, that it is not helping of people into employment? That is a
:55:00. > :55:02.shortcoming of the programme, not helping people into employment, and
:55:03. > :55:09.there are issues they have not addressed. As your eight showed
:55:10. > :55:13.issues with mental health and poverty and things like that which
:55:14. > :55:20.this does not really address. The do need to be tackled. What he is doing
:55:21. > :55:24.is not bad. One of the problems is that with these so`called problem
:55:25. > :55:27.families and I have surprised the family that was focused on was
:55:28. > :55:33.described as a problem, as a troubled family, the problem is that
:55:34. > :55:39.no two cases are exactly the same. In each family will meet individual
:55:40. > :55:43.intervention. I find myself in a fairly uncommon position of
:55:44. > :55:47.absolutely agreeing with the leader of Manchester City Council. This
:55:48. > :55:53.scheme has been successful as far as it goes, and needs to be funded for
:55:54. > :55:57.the long`term. In the even longer term, this will save a lot of money
:55:58. > :56:03.for local authorities and national government. The criticisms that
:56:04. > :56:06.Yasmin has picked up, that it has not been delivering in terms of
:56:07. > :56:11.getting people into jobs? It needs better coordination between the work
:56:12. > :56:16.done by local authorities and the work done by Jobcentre plus, and the
:56:17. > :56:19.work programme. Because clearly there needs to be better interaction
:56:20. > :56:26.between those two different agencies. So that once the get the
:56:27. > :56:32.support from local authority also get the support he needs to get the
:56:33. > :56:35.job. Have you found that this is something that is very much needed
:56:36. > :56:42.in your constituency? Dot`mac it is, we have families with the
:56:43. > :56:45.circumstances, children having difficulties and family members as
:56:46. > :56:50.well, so any programmes, anything that helps to actually get the
:56:51. > :56:55.family together, to deal with issues and the difficulties, is a good
:56:56. > :56:59.thing. Don't you feel that the issues revolving around the fact
:57:00. > :57:02.that sure start schemes are being closed, the fuel that this is the
:57:03. > :57:07.best... They should that have been closed, because sure start helped
:57:08. > :57:12.many families, especially with young children. We are fighting out
:57:13. > :57:19.campaigning for them to be kept open. One of the problems is that
:57:20. > :57:24.sure start schemes never focused on the families that we are referring
:57:25. > :57:28.to, because it tended to be, people using sure start tended to be
:57:29. > :57:31.families who actually want to be involved in things that are
:57:32. > :57:38.happening in the local area, whereas the troubled families and problem
:57:39. > :57:40.families it is more people who are not engaging with those facilities.
:57:41. > :57:43.So, what else has been happening this week? Here's a round`up in 60
:57:44. > :57:47.Seconds. Tributes were paid across the region
:57:48. > :57:56.to Nelson Mandela. Flags flew at half mast at Liverpool Town Hall and
:57:57. > :57:59.a book of condolence was opened Wonderful man. He has changed people
:58:00. > :58:01.'s lives, change the world. Lancashire's Chief Constable Steve
:58:02. > :58:06.Finnigan says rising poverty and police cuts are leading to a rise in
:58:07. > :58:10.crime. Police statistics are expected to show increases in theft
:58:11. > :58:14.and burglary. The Labour MP for Barrow and Furness
:58:15. > :58:19.John Woodcock has gone public about his struggle to overcome depression.
:58:20. > :58:22.Proud past, uncertain future. More than a hundred historic buildings
:58:23. > :58:27.across the region are at risk, according to English heritage. More
:58:28. > :58:31.than a third of council Conservation Officers have lost their jobs in the
:58:32. > :58:34.last few years. And plans to improve slipways on
:58:35. > :58:38.Windermere have been thrown out by planners. South Lakeland council
:58:39. > :58:52.wanted longer jetties and better facilities at Ferry Nab, but the
:58:53. > :58:55.National Park Authority said no We can't let the weak goal without
:58:56. > :59:00.mentioning the death of President Nelson Mandela. Yasmin, I'm at the
:59:01. > :59:06.inspiration was he to you? A great inspiration, he taught us all how to
:59:07. > :59:13.forgive and forget and how to bring peace and harmony. And how people
:59:14. > :59:17.can forget things and try to move on and that is something that perhaps
:59:18. > :59:23.all world leaders should take note of. John? My main memory is the
:59:24. > :59:30.beginning to five Rugby World Cup and in celebrating with the South
:59:31. > :59:34.African rugby team and he used the sport as a way of really reuniting
:59:35. > :59:37.the country. As you only have to listen to the sort of tributes that
:59:38. > :59:43.have come in from people who knew him personally to realise what an
:59:44. > :59:46.impact he had on individual slides, but also the international
:59:47. > :59:49.community. Much to live up to. Thank you both.
:59:50. > :59:53.That's it for us until after Christmas. I'll be back on the 2th
:59:54. > :59:57.of January. For now, I'll hand you back to Andrew Neil in London.
:59:58. > :00:22.Tomorrow, the House of Commons will pay its tributes to Nelson Mandela.
:00:23. > :00:42.Our nation has lost its greatest son. Our people have lost a father.
:00:43. > :00:49.The first thing I ever did that involved an issue or policy, or
:00:50. > :00:56.politics, was protest against apartheid.
:00:57. > :01:06.I think his greatest legacy, to South Africa and to the world, is
:01:07. > :01:17.the emphasis which he has always put on the need for a conciliation, on
:01:18. > :01:22.the importance of human rights. He also made us understand that we can
:01:23. > :01:26.change the world. We can change the world by changing attitudes, by
:01:27. > :01:31.changing perceptions. For this reason, I would like to pay him
:01:32. > :01:43.tribute as a great human being, who raised the standard of humanity
:01:44. > :01:48.Thank you for the gift of Madiba. Thank you for what he has enabled us
:01:49. > :02:05.to know we can become. We are joined now by the Labour MP
:02:06. > :02:10.Diane Abbott. You met Mr Mandela not one after he was released from
:02:11. > :02:15.prison in 1990. He went as an election observer for the first one
:02:16. > :02:19.person, one-vote in South Africa. I would guess, of all the people you
:02:20. > :02:23.met in your life, you must have been the most impressive and biggest
:02:24. > :02:28.influence? He was extraordinary He had just come out of prison, 28
:02:29. > :02:35.years in reason. He had seen a lot of his colleagues tortured, blown up
:02:36. > :02:37.and killed. He was entirely without bitterness. That is what came
:02:38. > :02:43.across. That was key to his achievement, to achieve a peaceful
:02:44. > :02:47.transition. Everybody thought that if you have black majority rule you
:02:48. > :02:52.might have a bloodbath. It's down to Nelson Mandela but didn't happen. I
:02:53. > :02:58.remember FW de Klerk saying that Mandela was the key to getting a
:02:59. > :03:05.peaceful transition. Absolutely the key, an amazing man. London was one
:03:06. > :03:09.of the centres, people talked about it as being the other centre of the
:03:10. > :03:13.anti-apartheid struggle. That anti-apartheid struggle in London,
:03:14. > :03:18.it had an effect on black politics in Britain? Oh, yes. If you were
:03:19. > :03:24.black and politically active at the time, the apartheid struggle, the
:03:25. > :03:28.struggle against white supremacy in South Africa, was very important.
:03:29. > :03:30.Whatever your colour, the anti-apartheid struggle, for our
:03:31. > :03:37.generation, was the political campaign. We have the 50th
:03:38. > :03:40.anniversary of Kennedy's assassination. Mr Mandela's death.
:03:41. > :03:45.We are kind of running out of people that inspired us? I will never
:03:46. > :03:50.forget where I was when I saw him come out of prison, hand-in-hand
:03:51. > :03:53.with the women, I might add. If you have spent your whole teenage years
:03:54. > :03:58.and 20 is boycotting, marching, picketing, to see him actually come
:03:59. > :04:06.out was amazing. Do you think it was more exciting to meet you or the
:04:07. > :04:14.Spice Girls? I think the Spice Girls. What did the Labour
:04:15. > :04:17.backbenchers think about Ed Balls's performance after the Autumn
:04:18. > :04:22.Statement? Luck, Ed Balls is a brilliant man, but I think even he
:04:23. > :04:25.would say that it was not his best performance. But if you look at the
:04:26. > :04:30.polls, the public liked the points he made. The backbenchers were
:04:31. > :04:37.quiet, there was something wrong? I noticed that. It was like a wall of
:04:38. > :04:40.sound, deliberately. They know that under pressure his stamina might
:04:41. > :04:45.come back and it is difficult for him. That is what they were trying
:04:46. > :04:48.to incite. I have had experience first hand, a look at all of these
:04:49. > :04:55.anonymous and sometimes not anonymous quotes in the media. The
:04:56. > :05:04.spinning has begun against him? This is the party of brotherly love, no
:05:05. > :05:10.matter what the Tories say, we can say worse about each other. How
:05:11. > :05:15.could it be that two former aides to Gordon Brown do not like each other?
:05:16. > :05:20.Far be it from me to say. If he wanted to do it, and I'm not saying
:05:21. > :05:25.he does, is Mr Miliband ruthless enough to get rid of Ed Balls? I
:05:26. > :05:30.mean, he got rid of you, he got rid of his brother? One thing you should
:05:31. > :05:33.not do is under estimate Ed Miliband's capacity for
:05:34. > :05:39.ruthlessness. If he feels it is the right thing to do, he will do it.
:05:40. > :05:43.It's not just a matter of... Ed Balls is a big, powerful
:05:44. > :05:46.personality. He's great to interview because he is across his subject,
:05:47. > :05:50.you can have a really good argument with him, a man that knows his
:05:51. > :05:57.brief, his facts. But it's not just about the personality. There is a
:05:58. > :06:02.kind of sense that Labour needs to look forwards more on economic
:06:03. > :06:05.policy. Of course, the standard of living has been hugely successful
:06:06. > :06:10.for Labour. But it needs more than that on economic policy? I think he
:06:11. > :06:15.has been one of the most effective member 's Shadow Cabinet, and he's
:06:16. > :06:19.always associated with the Brown years, where there is always an
:06:20. > :06:23.element about, you were the guys that got it wrong. I think Ed
:06:24. > :06:27.Miliband will be very tempted to replace him with Alistair Darling.
:06:28. > :06:30.The scenario goes like this, Alistair Darling saves the union and
:06:31. > :06:34.then in September he saves the Labour Party. Ultimately, I don t
:06:35. > :06:38.think he would do it. Talk about shifting tectonic plates, it would,
:06:39. > :06:45.wouldn't it? But it is a step too far. Ed Balls would not be too
:06:46. > :06:56.happy. It is not something you would want to do lightly. That sounds a
:06:57. > :07:00.bit of a threat. Not from you. I can't see Ed Balls magnanimously
:07:01. > :07:04.retreating and say, go on, Alistair Darling, take the job I have been
:07:05. > :07:07.after all career. Where do you put him? Do you make him a middle
:07:08. > :07:13.ranking business or welfare secretary? He wouldn't do that. If
:07:14. > :07:18.you sack him, he would retreat to the backbenchers. He might take up
:07:19. > :07:22.knitting and practices piano scales, or he might have a blood feud with
:07:23. > :07:28.Ed Miliband. I don't know which could be. You look back to when he
:07:29. > :07:31.was schools Secretary, you could feel he was constantly fuming. I
:07:32. > :07:36.think he is better inside the tent, looking out, than the other way
:07:37. > :07:39.around. The thing one Labour strategist said to me was that he is
:07:40. > :07:43.too much looking into the rear-view mirror, when it comes to economic
:07:44. > :07:50.policy. He needs to look ahead through the windscreen. That had
:07:51. > :07:53.some resonance? He was at the centre of Labour's economic policy-making
:07:54. > :07:58.from the mid-90s. So it's hard for him but he has to look forward.
:07:59. > :08:02.There is an interesting comparison with 2009. Gordon Brown got in
:08:03. > :08:05.trouble when he said the choice is between Labour investment and Tory
:08:06. > :08:10.cuts. Everybody knew it was between Labour cuts and Tory cuts. In other
:08:11. > :08:13.words, he was not acknowledging reality. With Ed Balls, OK, we can
:08:14. > :08:17.say it is the wrong sort of recovery, but there is a recovery.
:08:18. > :08:20.Does he not need to absorb that punch and say there is a recovery,
:08:21. > :08:27.then people will listen to him? Possibly. We know that the
:08:28. > :08:31.macroeconomics are looking better. We also know people are not
:08:32. > :08:37.experiencing it as a recovery in living standards. No one, not even
:08:38. > :08:40.Tories, really believe that David Cameron knows what it is like for
:08:41. > :08:44.middle-income people to live normal lives. Living standards is
:08:45. > :08:48.particularly powerful because of the composition of the government? Don't
:08:49. > :08:53.go away. This time last year we ambushed our political panel with a
:08:54. > :08:56.quiz. They didn't come out of it smelling of roses, but they did come
:08:57. > :09:02.out rather smelly. Will the coalition still be in place
:09:03. > :09:10.a year from now? Yes. Definitely. I say definitely as well. From now,
:09:11. > :09:17.one year, will we know the date of the European referendum? Yes. No. I
:09:18. > :09:23.say no as well. How much growth will there be? Less than 1%. Father
:09:24. > :09:31.Christmas is less qualified than me, but I will go for one. I will go for
:09:32. > :09:38.a quarter of that. 0.4%. Sorry, a third of that. I am with you, and
:09:39. > :09:42.1%. We didn't do too badly. What will growth be next year? I will
:09:43. > :09:50.remind you, the OBR has upgraded to 2.4%. Better stick with the OBR got
:09:51. > :09:55.it wrong last year. Well, they went down in March and then went back in
:09:56. > :09:58.December. I'm going to go under and claim credit where it's higher. I'm
:09:59. > :10:05.going to say 1%. Deliberately get it wrong. Given our record, if we say
:10:06. > :10:09.there is going to be spectacular growth, does it mean we're going to
:10:10. > :10:15.go into recession? There is incentive to be cautious. 2%. 2 4%,
:10:16. > :10:23.because the housing market in London is rocketing. It would be closer to
:10:24. > :10:30.3% and 2.4, mark my words. We'll Ed Balls be Shadow Chancellor by this
:10:31. > :10:37.time next year? Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes, I value my life. Will UKIP mean the
:10:38. > :10:45.European elections, by which I mean have the highest percentage of the
:10:46. > :10:51.vote? Yes. Second behind Labour Second behind Labour. Will Alex
:10:52. > :10:57.Salmond win the independence referendum? No, but it will be
:10:58. > :11:01.closer than we think. No, unless they do something catastrophic like
:11:02. > :11:08.let Cameron debate him. Too close to call. Controversial. How many
:11:09. > :11:18.Romanians and Bulgarians will come to Britain in 2014? Far fewer than
:11:19. > :11:21.anyone thinks. The entire population of Romania and Bulgaria, like Nigel
:11:22. > :11:27.Farage thanks. I'll go with that, I'm confident. A change of tone for
:11:28. > :11:31.your magazine. Not many will come, but a lot here already will
:11:32. > :11:38.normalise and be counted into figures. Too many for most
:11:39. > :11:41.right-wing commentators. I think quite a few will come, but not the
:11:42. > :11:51.kind of numbers that made such a huge difference. This time,
:11:52. > :11:55.everybody is open. They do like to speak English, that is the reason
:11:56. > :12:02.they want to come. We'll all three of you still be here by this time
:12:03. > :12:09.next year? Yes. Would you recommend that? Yes, keep them. And he has
:12:10. > :12:15.lovely boots. Shiny red boots. If you can keep affording me, I will be
:12:16. > :12:21.here. I hope so, it sounds like you have a firing squad outside. I hope
:12:22. > :12:29.so, maybe you will find some true talent. Very pragmatic, aren't they?
:12:30. > :12:33.Let me put this to you, I think you will agree. The coalition will not
:12:34. > :12:39.break now, this side of the election next year? There will not be... They
:12:40. > :12:46.will not go their own ways by this time next year? Of next year, maybe
:12:47. > :12:53.just after. Early 2015. This side of the election? What is the UKIP view?
:12:54. > :12:58.I don't think there is an advantage to either of them. If the Lib Dems
:12:59. > :13:01.pulled out, they would look like there were a lodger in the Tory
:13:02. > :13:05.house of government. I think it would suit the Lib Dems to break
:13:06. > :13:10.just before the election. I think that is what Vince Cable wants to
:13:11. > :13:17.do. I don't think it is what Nick Clegg would like to do. The Tories
:13:18. > :13:20.would love it. They would have all of the toys to themselves. Yellow
:13:21. > :13:23.marker they would look like the grown-ups. The problem for Vince
:13:24. > :13:25.Cable is that he's not the force that used to be after his temper
:13:26. > :13:34.tantrum at the Conference. I will be back with the Daily
:13:35. > :13:39.Politics next week. If Santer gives you a diary in your stocking, pencil
:13:40. > :13:47.in Sunday the 20th of January, the first Sunday Politics of 2014.
:13:48. > :13:49.Remember, if it is Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. Unless it is
:13:50. > :13:51.Christmas. And New Year.