:00:37. > :00:42.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:43. > :00:45.Ed Balls has gone socialist and fiscal Conservative in one speech.
:00:46. > :00:50.He promises to balance the biggest bit of the budget. And to bring back
:00:51. > :00:54.the 50p top tax rate. Political masterstroke, or a return to old
:00:55. > :00:57.Labour? If you go to work by public
:00:58. > :01:00.transport, chances are the price of your ticket has just gone up -
:01:01. > :01:04.again. We'll speak to Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin. He's
:01:05. > :01:07.our Sunday Interview. And it's been another wet week
:01:08. > :01:12.across much of the UK, but what s the outlook according to this man?
:01:13. > :01:40.This morning.This morning. Held in recent years by party veterans like
:01:41. > :01:44.And with me - as always - the political panel so fresh-faced,
:01:45. > :01:47.entertaining and downright popular they make Justin Bieber look like a
:01:48. > :01:50.boring old has-been just desperate to get your attention. Nick Watt,
:01:51. > :01:53.Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, and they'll be tweeting quicker than a
:01:54. > :02:10.yellow Lamborghini racing down Miami Beach. Being political nerds, they
:02:11. > :02:14.have no idea what I'm talking about. Ed Balls sprung a surprise on us all
:02:15. > :02:17.yesterday. We kinda thought Labour would head for the election with a
:02:18. > :02:21.return to the 50p top rate of tax. But we didn't think he'd do it now.
:02:22. > :02:25.He did! The polls say it's popular, Labour activists now have a spring
:02:26. > :02:28.in their step. The Tories say it's a return to the bad old days of the
:02:29. > :02:30.'70s, and bosses now think Labour is anti-business. Here's the Shadow
:02:31. > :02:33.Chancellor speaking earlier this morning. I was part of a Government
:02:34. > :02:36.which did very many things to open up markets, to make the Bank of
:02:37. > :02:38.England independent, to work closely with business, but the reality is we
:02:39. > :02:40.are in very difficult circumstances and because if I'm honest you,
:02:41. > :02:44.George Osborne's failure in the last few years, those difficult
:02:45. > :02:54.circumstances will last into the next Parliament. Business people
:02:55. > :03:00.have said to me they want to get the deficit down, of course they do But
:03:01. > :03:03.to cut the top rate... It is foolish and feeds resentment I want to do
:03:04. > :03:08.the opposite and say look, pro-business, pro investment, pro
:03:09. > :03:12.market, but pro fairness. Let's get this deficit down in a fairway and
:03:13. > :03:18.make the reforms to make our economy work for the long term. What are the
:03:19. > :03:25.political implications of Labour now in favour of a 50%, in practise 352%
:03:26. > :03:28.top rate of tax? One of the political implications I don't think
:03:29. > :03:32.exist is that they'll win new voters. I'm not sure many people out
:03:33. > :03:37.there would think, I would love to vote for Ed Miliband but I'm not
:03:38. > :03:43.sure if he wants to tax rich people enough. It will con Dale their
:03:44. > :03:51.existing vote but I don't think it is the kind of, in the 1990s we
:03:52. > :03:54.talked about triangulation, moving beyond your core vote, I don't think
:03:55. > :03:58.it is a policy like that. If there has been a policy like that this
:03:59. > :04:01.year, this month, it has been the Tories' move on minimum wage. I
:04:02. > :04:06.thought Labour would come back with their own version, a centre-right
:04:07. > :04:11.policy, and instead they have done this. I think we talk about the 35%
:04:12. > :04:17.strategy that Labour supposed will have, I think it is a policy in that
:04:18. > :04:24.direction rather than the thing Tony Blair or Gordon Brown would have
:04:25. > :04:30.done. Where he was not clear is on how much it would raise. We know the
:04:31. > :04:35.sum in the grand scheme of things isn't much, the bedroom tax was
:04:36. > :04:42.about sending a message. What we are going to see is George Osborne and
:04:43. > :04:48.Ed Balls lock as they try to push the other one into saying things
:04:49. > :04:56.that are unpopular. The Tories, ?150,000 a year, that's exactly
:04:57. > :05:01.where Ed Balls want them to be. All three main parties have roughly the
:05:02. > :05:04.same plan, to run a current budget surplus by the end of the next
:05:05. > :05:10.Parliament. George Osborne said ?12 billion of welfare cuts, hasn't said
:05:11. > :05:15.how he is going to do it. Ed Balls is giving an idea that he is going
:05:16. > :05:19.to restore this 50 persons rate The contribution of that will be
:05:20. > :05:24.deminimus. It is not much, but what does it say about your values.
:05:25. > :05:28.Because it is that package, it is cleverer than people think. Where
:05:29. > :05:31.the challenge is is the question that Peter Mandelson posed at the
:05:32. > :05:37.last election, which is can the Labour Party win a general election
:05:38. > :05:40.if it doesn't have business on its side? That's the big challenge and
:05:41. > :05:44.that's the question looking difficult for them this morning
:05:45. > :05:50.Does it matter if Labour has business on its side. I thought the
:05:51. > :05:54.most fascinating thing about this announcement is it came from the guy
:05:55. > :05:59.mindful of business support, Ed Balls. When in opposition and when a
:06:00. > :06:05.Minister and as a shadow as a result, he's been far more conscious
:06:06. > :06:09.than Ed Miliband about the need not to alienate the CB Bill. In the
:06:10. > :06:14.run-up of an election. This is a measure of Ed Miliband's strength in
:06:15. > :06:19.the Labour Party, that his view of things can prevail so easily over a
:06:20. > :06:25.guy who for the last 15 years has taken a different view. Eight out of
:06:26. > :06:30.ten businesses according to the CBI don't want us to leave business
:06:31. > :06:35.Business is in a bit of a cleft stick. Ed Miliband would like to see
:06:36. > :06:38.businesses squealing, and Ed Balls is clearly not so comfortable on
:06:39. > :06:43.that one. There's a difference on that. Mind you, they were squealing
:06:44. > :06:47.this morning from Davos. They probably had hangovers as well. The
:06:48. > :06:52.other thing they would say is this is not like Ed Balls thinks that 50p
:06:53. > :06:56.is the optimal rate forever, it what go eventually. Isn't that what
:06:57. > :07:01.politicians said when income tax was introduced? Yeah, in '97 Labour
:07:02. > :07:06.regarded 40 persons as the rate where it would stay.
:07:07. > :07:11.It's been a bad week for the Lib Dems. Again. Actually, it's been one
:07:12. > :07:14.of the worst weeks yet for Nick Clegg and his party in recent
:07:15. > :07:17.memory, as they've gone from talking confidently about their role in
:07:18. > :07:19.Government to facing a storm of criticism over claims of
:07:20. > :07:23.inappropriate sexual behaviour by a Lib Dem peer, Chris Rennard, and a
:07:24. > :07:27.Lib Dem MP, Mike Hancock. Here's Giles with the story of the week. A
:07:28. > :07:33.challenge to Nick Clegg's authority as he face as growing row over the
:07:34. > :07:37.Liberal Democrat... I want everyone to be treated with respect by the
:07:38. > :07:43.Liberal Democrats. We are expecting him to show moral leadership on our
:07:44. > :07:49.behalf. A good man has been publicly destroyed by the media with the
:07:50. > :07:53.apparent support of Nick Clegg. I would like Nick Clegg to show
:07:54. > :08:00.leadership and say, this has got to stop. When Nick Clegg woke up on
:08:01. > :08:06.Monday morning he knew he was in trouble, staring down the barrel of
:08:07. > :08:11.a stand justify with Lord Rennard over allegations that the peer had
:08:12. > :08:15.inappropriately touched a number of women. Chris Rennard thought he was
:08:16. > :08:20.cleared. Nick Clegg wanted more I said if he doesn't apologise, he
:08:21. > :08:25.should withdraw from the House of Lords. If he does that today, what
:08:26. > :08:32.do you do then? I hope he doesn t. I think no apology, no whip. 2014 was
:08:33. > :08:37.starting badly for the Liberal Democrats. Chris Rennard refused to
:08:38. > :08:42.apologise, saying you can't say sorry for something you haven't
:08:43. > :08:46.done. The and he was leaning towards legal action. Butch us friends
:08:47. > :08:50.better defending Pym and publicly. This is a good, decent man, who has
:08:51. > :08:54.been punished by the party, with the leadership of the party that seems
:08:55. > :09:01.to be showing scant regard for due process. But his accusers felt very
:09:02. > :09:05.differently. It is untenable for the Lib Dems to have a credible voice on
:09:06. > :09:10.qualities and women's issues in the future if Lord Rennard was allowed
:09:11. > :09:16.to be back on the Lib Dem benches in the House of Lords. Therein lay the
:09:17. > :09:20.problem that exposed the weaknesses of the Lib Dem leaders. The party's
:09:21. > :09:27.internal structures have all the simplicity of a circuit diagram for
:09:28. > :09:32.a supercomputer, exposing the complexity of who runs the Liberal
:09:33. > :09:36.Democrats? The simple question that arose of that was can the leader of
:09:37. > :09:41.the Lib Dems remove a Lib Dem peer? The simple answer is no. The Lib Dem
:09:42. > :09:48.whips in the Lords could do it but if enough Lib Dem peers disagreed,
:09:49. > :09:51.they could overrule it. Some long-stand ng friends of roar
:09:52. > :09:55.Rennard think he is either the innocent victim of a media
:09:56. > :10:00.witch-hunt or at the least due process has been ridden over rough
:10:01. > :10:04.shot by the leadership. Nobody ever did spot Lord Rennard as he didn't
:10:05. > :10:09.turn up to the Lords, will citing ill health. But issued a statement
:10:10. > :10:13.that ruled out an apology. He refused to do so and refused to
:10:14. > :10:17.comply with the outcome of that report, so there was no alternative
:10:18. > :10:21.but for the party to suspend his membership today. On Wednesday Nick
:10:22. > :10:25.Clegg met Lib Dem peers, not for a crunch decision, but to discuss the
:10:26. > :10:28.extraordinary prospect of legal action against the party by the man
:10:29. > :10:33.long credited with building its success. The situation was making
:10:34. > :10:37.the party look like a joke. One Tory MP said to one of my colleagues this
:10:38. > :10:40.morning, the funny thing about the Liberal Democrats, you managed to
:10:41. > :10:44.create a whole sex scandal without any sex. And we can laugh at
:10:45. > :10:49.ourselves but actually it is rather serious. And it got more serious,
:10:50. > :10:54.when an MP who had resigned the Lib Dem whip last year was expanded from
:10:55. > :10:57.the party over a report into allegations of serious and unwelcome
:10:58. > :11:02.sexual behaviour towards a constituent. All of this leaves the
:11:03. > :11:07.Lib Dems desperately wishing these sagas had been dealt with long ago
:11:08. > :11:13.and would now go away. Nick Clegg ended the week still party leader.
:11:14. > :11:20.Lord Rennard, once one of their most powerful players, ended the week,
:11:21. > :11:23.for now, no longer even in it. Giles on the Lib Dems' disastrous
:11:24. > :11:29.week. Now, as you doubtless already know, on Tuesday Lib Dem MPs will
:11:30. > :11:34.vote to choose a new deputy leader. You didn't know that? You do now.
:11:35. > :11:37.The job of Nick Clegg's number two is to speak with a genuine Lib Dem
:11:38. > :11:41.voice, untainted by the demands of coalition Government. At this point
:11:42. > :11:44.in the show we had expected to speak to all three candidates for the
:11:45. > :11:52.post, held in recent years by party veterans like Vince Cable and Simon
:11:53. > :11:55.Hughes. We thought it being quite a significant week for the party, they
:11:56. > :12:01.might have something to say. And here they are. Well that's their
:12:02. > :12:05.pictures. For various reasons, all three are now unavailable. Malcolm
:12:06. > :12:09.Bruce, he's reckoned to be the outsider. His office said he had a
:12:10. > :12:11."family commitment". Gordon Birtwistle, the Burnley MP, was
:12:12. > :12:15.booked to appear but then told us, "I was at an event last night with
:12:16. > :12:21.Lorely Burt" - she's one of the candidates - "and she told me it was
:12:22. > :12:25.off". And Lorely Burt herself, seen by many as the red hot favourite,
:12:26. > :12:28.told us: "Because of the Rennard thing we don't want to put ourselves
:12:29. > :12:40.in a position where we have to answer difficult questions." How
:12:41. > :12:44.refreshingly honest. Helen, how bad politically is all this for the Lib
:12:45. > :12:47.Dems? What I think is the tragic irony of the Lib Dems is they've
:12:48. > :12:52.been revealed as being too democratic. In the same way that
:12:53. > :12:57.their party conference embarrassed Nick Clegg by voting sings that he
:12:58. > :13:03.signed up to, and now everything has to be run past various
:13:04. > :13:15.sub-committees first. Is it democratic or chaotic? It is
:13:16. > :13:21.Byzantine. Mike Hancock was voluntarily suspended, and this week
:13:22. > :13:26.he was properly suspended. It was new information into the public
:13:27. > :13:33.domain that forced that. I'm already hearing Labour and Conservative
:13:34. > :13:36.Party musing that if it is a long Parliament, we will form a minority
:13:37. > :13:40.Government. It is a disaster for them. Voters like parties that
:13:41. > :13:45.reflect and are interested this their concerns. Parties that are
:13:46. > :13:48.self obsessed turn them off. The third party, if they carry on like
:13:49. > :13:52.this, they'll be the fifth party in the European elections, so they have
:13:53. > :13:57.got to draw a line under this. They do that, if they do, through
:13:58. > :14:02.mediation. As I understand it, Chris Rennard,s who has go devoted his
:14:03. > :14:05.entire life to the Liberal Democrats, and previously the
:14:06. > :14:09.Liberal Party, is keen to draw a line under this. He is up for
:14:10. > :14:13.mediation but he needs to know that the women that he has clearly
:14:14. > :14:17.invaded their personal space, that there wouldn't be a possible legal a
:14:18. > :14:21.action from them. The it is very difficult to see how you could
:14:22. > :14:25.resolve that. Except he is threatening through his friends
:14:26. > :14:30.these famous friends, to spill all the beans about all the party's sex
:14:31. > :14:34.secrets. Isn't the danger for the Lib Dems, this haunts them through
:14:35. > :14:37.to the European elections, where they'll get thumped in the European
:14:38. > :14:41.elections? They'll get destroyed in the European elections, which keeps
:14:42. > :14:46.it salient as a story over the summer. And it has implications for
:14:47. > :14:50.Nick Clegg's leadership. He's done a good job until now, perhaps better
:14:51. > :14:54.than David Cameron, of exercising authority over his party. He had a
:14:55. > :14:58.good conference in September. Absolutely, and now the Lib Dems
:14:59. > :15:03.have looked like a party without a leader or a leadership structure.
:15:04. > :15:07.Part of that is down to the chaotic or Byzantine organisational
:15:08. > :15:10.structure of the party. Part of it is Nick Clegg's failure to assert
:15:11. > :15:19.himself and impose himself over events. Is it Byzantine or
:15:20. > :15:30.Byzantine. It is labyrinthine. You don't get these words on the Today
:15:31. > :15:33.programme. The cost of living has been back on the agenda this week as
:15:34. > :15:37.Labour and the Tories argue over whether the value of money in your
:15:38. > :15:40.pocket is going up or down. Well there's one cost which has been
:15:41. > :15:44.racing ahead of inflation and that's the amount you have to pay to travel
:15:45. > :15:46.by train, by bus and by air. Rail commuters have been hard hit over
:15:47. > :15:50.the last four years, with the cost of the average season ticket going
:15:51. > :15:56.up by 18% since January 2010, while wages have gone up by just 3.6% over
:15:57. > :16:02.the same period. It means some rail users are paying high prices with
:16:03. > :16:07.commuters from Kent shelling out more than ?5,000 per year from the
:16:08. > :16:12.beginning of this month just to get to work in London. It doesn't
:16:13. > :16:17.compare well with our European counterparts. In the UK the average
:16:18. > :16:26.rail user spends 14% of their average income on trains. It is just
:16:27. > :16:31.1.5% in Italy. Regulated fares like season tickets went up 3.1% at the
:16:32. > :16:35.beginning of this month, and with ministers keen to make passengers
:16:36. > :16:38.fought more of the bills, there are more fare rises coming down the
:16:39. > :16:52.track. And Patrick McLoughlin joins me now for the Sunday Interview
:16:53. > :16:56.Welcome. You claim to be in the party of hard-working people, so why
:16:57. > :17:00.is it that since you came to power rail commuters have seen the cost of
:17:01. > :17:09.their average season ticket going up in money terms by over 18% while
:17:10. > :17:15.their pay has gone up in money terms by less than four? I would point out
:17:16. > :17:21.that this is the first year in ten years that we have not had an above
:17:22. > :17:26.inflation increase on fares. The Government accepts we have got to do
:17:27. > :17:34.as much as we can to help the passengers. A big inflation increase
:17:35. > :17:41.since 2010. This is the first year in ten years that it has not been
:17:42. > :17:46.above RPI, but we are also investing huge amounts of money into the
:17:47. > :17:51.railways, building new trains for the East Coast Main Line and the
:17:52. > :17:58.great Western. We are spending 500 million at Birmingham station, this
:17:59. > :18:01.is all increasing capacity, so we are seeing investments. Over the
:18:02. > :18:11.next five years Network Rail will invest over ?38 billion in the
:18:12. > :18:16.network structure. We also have an expensive railway and it is ordinary
:18:17. > :18:22.people paying for it. A season ticket from Woking in Surrey,
:18:23. > :18:28.commuter belt land in London, let's look at the figures. This is a
:18:29. > :18:37.distance of over 25 miles, it cost over ?3000 per year. We have picked
:18:38. > :18:46.similar distances to international cities.
:18:47. > :18:54.The British commuter is being ripped off. The British commuter is seeing
:18:55. > :18:59.record levels of investment in our railways. The investment has to be
:19:00. > :19:03.paid for. We are investing huge amounts of money and I don't know
:19:04. > :19:20.whether the figures you have got here... I'm sure they are likewise,
:19:21. > :19:29.as you have managed to do... White -- ten times more than the Italian
:19:30. > :19:33.equivalent. We have seen transformational changes in our
:19:34. > :19:38.railway services and we need to carry on investing. We were paying
:19:39. > :19:43.these prices even before you started investing. We have always paid a lot
:19:44. > :19:52.more to commute in this country than our European equivalents. I'm not
:19:53. > :19:58.quite sure I want to take on Italy is a great example. You would if you
:19:59. > :20:04.were a commuter. You is a great example. You would if you
:20:05. > :20:10.the other rates of taxation has to be paid as well. Isn't it the case
:20:11. > :20:14.they are making profits out of these figures and using them to subsidise
:20:15. > :20:23.cheaper fares back in their homeland? The overall profit margin
:20:24. > :20:26.train companies make is 3%, a reasonable amount, and we have seen
:20:27. > :20:31.a revolution as far as the railway industry is concerned.
:20:32. > :20:36.a revolution as far as the railway 20 years we have seen passenger
:20:37. > :20:41.journeys going from 750 million to 1.5 billion. That is a massive
:20:42. > :20:45.revolution in rail. Let me look 1.5 billion. That is a massive
:20:46. > :20:46.spokesperson for the German government, the Ministry of
:20:47. > :21:03.transport. They are charging huge fares in
:21:04. > :21:09.Britain to take that money back to subsidise fares in Germany. What do
:21:10. > :21:13.you say to that? We are seeing British companies winning contracts
:21:14. > :21:18.in Germany. The National Express are winning contracts to the railways.
:21:19. > :21:23.What about the ordinary commuter? They are paying through the nose so
:21:24. > :21:29.German commuters can travel more cheaply. We are still subsidising
:21:30. > :21:33.the railways in this country, but overall we want to reduce the
:21:34. > :21:40.subsidy we are giving. We are still seeing growth in our railways and I
:21:41. > :21:48.want to see more people using them. Why do you increase rail fares at
:21:49. > :21:53.the higher RPI measure than the lower CPI measurement? That is what
:21:54. > :21:57.has always been done, and we have stopped. This is the first time in
:21:58. > :22:08.ten years that we have not raised the rail figures above RPI. You
:22:09. > :22:13.still link fares to RPI. You use the lower CPI figure when it suits you,
:22:14. > :22:18.to keep pension payments down for example, but the higher one when it
:22:19. > :22:22.comes to increasing rail fares. We are still putting a huge subsidy
:22:23. > :22:27.into the rail industry, there is still a huge amount of money going
:22:28. > :22:33.from the taxpayer to support the rail industry. I am not asking you
:22:34. > :22:41.about that, I am asking you why you link the figures to the higher RPI
:22:42. > :22:47.vesture Mark if we are going to pay for the levels of investment, so all
:22:48. > :22:52.the new trains being built at Newton Aycliffe for the East Coast Main
:22:53. > :22:56.Line and the great Western, ?3. billion of investment, new rolling
:22:57. > :23:00.stock coming online, then yes, we have to pay for it, and it is a
:23:01. > :23:14.question of the taxpayer paying for it all the -- or the passenger.
:23:15. > :23:17.You have capped parking fines until the next election, rail commuters we
:23:18. > :23:27.have seen the cost of their ticket has gone up by nearly 20%, you are
:23:28. > :23:34.the party of the drivers, not the passengers, aren't you?
:23:35. > :23:48.We are trying to help everybody who has been struggling. I think we are
:23:49. > :23:52.setting out long-term plans for our railways, investing heavily in them
:23:53. > :23:58.and it is getting that balance right. But you have done more for
:23:59. > :24:05.the driver than you have for the user of public transport. I don t
:24:06. > :24:11.accept that. They are paying the same petrol prices as 2011. This is
:24:12. > :24:18.the first time in ten years that there has not been an RPI plus
:24:19. > :24:25.rise. We are investing record amounts. Bus fares are also rising,
:24:26. > :24:31.4.2% in real terms in 2010, at a time when real take-home pay has
:24:32. > :24:37.been falling. This hits commuters particularly workers who use buses
:24:38. > :24:41.on low incomes, another cost of living squeeze. I was with
:24:42. > :24:55.Stagecoach in Manchester on Friday, and I saw a bus company investing in
:24:56. > :25:01.new buses. Last week First ordered new buses. Part of your hard-working
:25:02. > :25:07.families you are always on about, they are the ones going to work
:25:08. > :25:11.early in the morning, and yet you are making them pay more for their
:25:12. > :25:18.buses in real terms than they did before. They would be happier if
:25:19. > :25:23.they could travel more cheaply. It is about getting investment in
:25:24. > :25:32.services, it has to be paid for Why not run the old buses for five more
:25:33. > :25:36.years? Because then there is more pollution in the atmosphere, modern
:25:37. > :25:40.buses have lower emissions, and we are still giving huge support
:25:41. > :25:43.overall to the bus industry and that is very important because I fully
:25:44. > :25:53.accept that the number of people, yes, use the train but a lot of
:25:54. > :25:59.people use buses as well. High-speed two, it has been delayed because 877
:26:00. > :26:06.pages of key evidence from your department were left on a computer
:26:07. > :26:09.memory stick, part of the submission to environmental consultation. Your
:26:10. > :26:17.department's economic case is now widely regarded as a joke, now you
:26:18. > :26:23.do this. Is your department fit for purpose? Yes, and as far as what
:26:24. > :26:26.happened with the memory stick, it is an acceptable and shouldn't have
:26:27. > :26:32.happened, and therefore we have extended the time. There has been an
:26:33. > :26:42.extension in the time for people to make representation, the bill for
:26:43. > :26:55.this goes through Parliament in a different way to a normal bill. It
:26:56. > :27:00.is vital HS2 provides what we want. What I am very pleased about is when
:27:01. > :27:05.the paving bill was passed by Parliament just a few months ago,
:27:06. > :27:11.there was overwhelming support, and I kept reading there was going to be
:27:12. > :27:15.70 people voting against it, in the end 30 people voted against it and
:27:16. > :27:20.there was a good majority in the House of Commons. So can you give a
:27:21. > :27:28.guarantee that this legislation will get onto the statute books? I will
:27:29. > :27:32.do all I can. I cannot tell you the exact Parliamentary time scale. The
:27:33. > :27:40.bill will have started its progress through the House of Commons by
:27:41. > :27:46.2015, and it may well have concluded. The new chairman of HS2
:27:47. > :27:57.said he can bring the cost of the line substantially under the budget,
:27:58. > :28:02.do you agree with that? The figure is ?42 billion with a large
:28:03. > :28:07.contingency, and David Higgins, as chairman of HS2, is looking at the
:28:08. > :28:12.whole cast and seeing if there are ways in which it can be built
:28:13. > :28:17.faster. At the moment across London we are building Crossrail, ?14.
:28:18. > :28:24.billion investment. There was a report last week saying what an
:28:25. > :28:30.excellent job has been done. Crossrail started under Labour.
:28:31. > :28:38.Actually it was Cecil Parkinson in the 1990 party conference. You may
:28:39. > :28:44.get HS2 cheaper if you didn't pay people so much, why is the
:28:45. > :28:53.nonexecutive chairman of HS2 on ?600,000? And the new chief
:28:54. > :28:56.executive on ?750,000. These are very big projects and we need to
:28:57. > :29:02.attract the best people become so we are going for the best engineers in
:29:03. > :29:07.the world to engineer this project. It is a large salary, there is no
:29:08. > :29:11.question about it, but I'm rather pleased that engineers rather than
:29:12. > :29:16.bankers can be seen to get big rewards for delivering what will be
:29:17. > :29:20.very important pieces of national infrastructure. I didn't have time
:29:21. > :29:26.to ask you about your passenger duty so perhaps another time. We are
:29:27. > :29:30.about to speak to Nigel Mills and all of these MPs on your side who
:29:31. > :29:35.are rebelling against the Government, how would you handle
:29:36. > :29:40.them? We have got to listen to what our colleagues are talking about and
:29:41. > :29:45.try to respond it. Would you take them for a long walk off a short
:29:46. > :29:58.pier? I'm sure I would have many conversations with them. An
:29:59. > :30:04.immigration bill to tack the immigration into the UK. When limits
:30:05. > :30:10.on migration from Bulgaria and Romania were lifted this year there
:30:11. > :30:13.were warnings of a large influx of migrant workerses from the two new
:30:14. > :30:19.European countries. So far it's been more of a dribble than a flood. Who
:30:20. > :30:24.can forget Labour MP Keith Vaz greeting a handful of arrivals at
:30:25. > :30:28.Luton Airport. But it is early days and it is one of the reasons the
:30:29. > :30:32.Government's introduced a new Immigration Bill. The Prime Minister
:30:33. > :30:38.is facing rebellion from backbenchers who want tougher action
:30:39. > :30:47.on immigration from abroad. Nigel Mills would reimpose restrictions on
:30:48. > :30:54.how many Romanians and Bulgarians can come here. Joining me is Nigel
:30:55. > :30:58.Mills, Conservative MP behind the amendment and Labour MP Diane
:30:59. > :31:06.Abbott. Welcome. Nigel Mills, there hasn't been an influx of Romanians
:31:07. > :31:10.and Bulgarians. Why do you want to restore these, kick these
:31:11. > :31:15.transitional controls way forward to 2019? I don't think any of us were
:31:16. > :31:20.expecting a rush on January 1st Andrew. I think we were talking
:31:21. > :31:25.about a range of 250,000 to 350 000 people over five years. That's
:31:26. > :31:30.obviously a large amount of people, especially when you think net
:31:31. > :31:33.migration to the UK was well in excess of the Government's target of
:31:34. > :31:39.tens of thousands last year. The real concern is that it would be
:31:40. > :31:45.ever increasing our population, attracting lots of low-skilled,
:31:46. > :31:49.low-wage people, which keeps our people out of work and wages down.
:31:50. > :31:54.Did you accept that if you were to accept this, it would be in breach
:31:55. > :31:59.of the Treaty of Rome, the founding principle of the European Union We
:32:00. > :32:03.were trying to keep the restrictions that Bulgaria and Romania accepted
:32:04. > :32:06.for their first seven years of EU membership, on the basis that when
:32:07. > :32:11.we signed the treaty we weren't aware that we would have a huge and
:32:12. > :32:16.catastrophic recession we are still recovering from. But you would be in
:32:17. > :32:20.breach of the law, correct? The UK Parliament has a right to say we
:32:21. > :32:25.signed this deal before the terrible recession, and we need a bit longer
:32:26. > :32:32.in our national interest. It is worth noting that Bulgaria and
:32:33. > :32:36.Romania haven't met all their accession requirements. The
:32:37. > :32:41.Bulgarian requirement passed a law... So if they break the law it
:32:42. > :32:47.is alright for us to break the law? Is we should be focusing on trying
:32:48. > :32:52.to get 2. 4 million of our own in work, and 1 million people not in
:32:53. > :32:58.work... Let me bring in Diane Abbott. Will you vote for this
:32:59. > :33:03.amendment and why? It is in breach of the treaty. While I deplore MPs
:33:04. > :33:06.that try to cause trouble, these MPs have been particularly mindless
:33:07. > :33:12.because what they want to do wouldn't be legal. However, it is a
:33:13. > :33:16.Tory internal brief, if I might say so. Maybe you can cause trouble by
:33:17. > :33:23.voting for it. No, that would be going too far. Underlying it is a
:33:24. > :33:27.real antagonism for David Cameron. They have had to hold off on this
:33:28. > :33:31.bill until January. It was supposed to be debating before Christmas As
:33:32. > :33:39.we speak they've not cut a deal so it could be pretty grus om. Nigel
:33:40. > :33:44.Mills, what do you say to that I think there is a recognition that
:33:45. > :33:48.there is a problem with the amount of migration from EU countries that
:33:49. > :33:52.we need to tackle. We could try to achieve an annual cap perhaps,
:33:53. > :33:55.longer limits on when countries get free movement. I think the debate is
:33:56. > :33:59.moving in the right direction, but I think those people who are trapped
:34:00. > :34:04.out of work and desperately looking for work want something to be done
:34:05. > :34:09.now and not wait a few more years while we have more assessments
:34:10. > :34:14.Andrews. People are worried about the level of immigration. They I it
:34:15. > :34:20.is too high. That's the consensus in the country. We spoke to to
:34:21. > :34:23.migration centre in Hackney and they said they are struggling to cope
:34:24. > :34:27.with the number of people using their services. These are people
:34:28. > :34:32.with problems with the law. In the past years EU migrants put in more
:34:33. > :34:37.to the economy in taxation than they take out in benefits. When it comes
:34:38. > :34:42.to free movement, which is agitating Nige em, that horse has bolted. We
:34:43. > :34:47.signed a treaty. There is nothing people like Nigel Mills can do,
:34:48. > :34:51.unless they want to rip their party apart, God forbid. Will you go as
:34:52. > :34:56.far as to rip your party apart, Nigel Mills? Are you going to take
:34:57. > :35:01.this all the way? Would you rather see this bill go down than your
:35:02. > :35:07.amendment not be accepted? This is a very important bill. I think we all
:35:08. > :35:11.want to see measures on the statute book, so the last thing we want to
:35:12. > :35:16.see is this bill go down. We do need to set out clearly that we have real
:35:17. > :35:23.concerns about the level of EU migration and something needs to be
:35:24. > :35:28.done. Would you rather have the bill without your amendment or no bill at
:35:29. > :35:33.all? I am hoping we can have the bill with the amendment. I know
:35:34. > :35:39.that, but if you can't? Is that will depend on what the Labour Party
:35:40. > :35:44.decide to do. They are talking tougher on immigration but will they
:35:45. > :35:48.take action on it? Your party has been talking tough on immigration
:35:49. > :35:52.but I will be surprised if an Ed Miliband Labour Party would vote for
:35:53. > :35:57.egg in direct cameravention of the Treaty of Rome. It would make no
:35:58. > :36:04.sense. Nigel Mills is wishing for the impossible. If I was a Tory I
:36:05. > :36:09.would be wringing high hands. He hasn't ruled out crashing the bill.
:36:10. > :36:15.That's incredible. Where will this end, Nigel Mills? We'll end with a
:36:16. > :36:20.vote on Thursday. There's a lot of amendments people can use to show
:36:21. > :36:23.their concern about migration. We want limited and proportionate
:36:24. > :36:28.action, and that's what I am proposing. I want to see the bill on
:36:29. > :36:33.the statute book, I want the restrictions on people who shouldn't
:36:34. > :36:37.be here getting bank accounts and driving licences. I don't want to
:36:38. > :36:43.crash this bill but there's more measures we need in it. Nigel Mills
:36:44. > :36:48.thank you. You are going to be - popping up I think on the Sunday
:36:49. > :36:55.Politics East Midlands. Diane Abbott, thank you as well.
:36:56. > :36:58.We're in for more heavy rain and high winds across the UK today. You
:36:59. > :37:00.may remember that one UKIP councillor - he's since been
:37:01. > :37:03.suspended - caused controversy last weekend by blaming the recent
:37:04. > :37:07.flooding on the legalisation of gay marriage. Why didn't I think of
:37:08. > :37:10.that? So who better than this man to bring you the unofficial forecast.
:37:11. > :37:15.I'll be bringing you the late least UKIP weather from your area.
:37:16. > :37:22.You're watching Sunday Politics Also coming up in just over 20
:37:23. > :37:35.minutes, I'll be looking at the week ahead with our political panel.
:37:36. > :37:42.Hello. Coming up in the north`west, we made the landlords who say they
:37:43. > :37:48.will be forced to slam the door and tenants on benefits. People on
:37:49. > :37:52.benefit are going to be the last choice for landlords if they feel
:37:53. > :37:58.they can get other tenants who are less risky. Through our studio
:37:59. > :38:02.door, we welcome Alison McGovern, the Labour MP for Wirral South and
:38:03. > :38:08.David Rutley, the Conservative MP for Macclesfield. We start with the
:38:09. > :38:11.news that unemployment in the north`west was down between
:38:12. > :38:17.September and November. The number of people without jobs fell to
:38:18. > :38:25.270,000, a rate of 7.9%, down from 8.6%. That means 24,000 fewer people
:38:26. > :38:32.are out of work. The Clement Minister Esther McVey says it is
:38:33. > :38:36.welcome news. What we are seeing since 2010 is that private`sector
:38:37. > :38:39.jobs have gone up by 49,000. It is an area that is highly dependent on
:38:40. > :38:45.the public sector, and we are rebalancing that, getting private
:38:46. > :38:48.enterprise. What I see on the ground is things like jaguar Land Rover,
:38:49. > :38:55.and they have apprenticeships there and really high`end IT stop, so you
:38:56. > :39:00.see a mix. This is what you wanted, Alison, a drop in unemployment. You
:39:01. > :39:04.must be pleased. I am, of course, and it is really encouraging to see
:39:05. > :39:09.anyone moving to work. What Esther should have mentioned there is that
:39:10. > :39:13.some of the people moving into the private sector as a result of
:39:14. > :39:16.reclassification, so it does not mean anything on the ground. The
:39:17. > :39:22.other big worry for me is two things `` firstly, how many of these jobs
:39:23. > :39:26.are zero hours contract or part time where people want to be full`time.
:39:27. > :39:30.People are not going to be feeling the benefit as much as they should
:39:31. > :39:35.be. And secondly, we have a huge number of young people, 250,000 in
:39:36. > :39:39.our country, that are long`term unemployed. That is really bad for
:39:40. > :39:43.our future, so we must see more action on that. But both the
:39:44. > :39:49.part`time and long`term unemployment numbers have improved. I think the
:39:50. > :39:54.key issue is that unemployment hasn't just fallen, it's fallen by
:39:55. > :39:59.0.7%. That is a big drop, much more than the national drop. Yes, it is
:40:00. > :40:06.absolutely right that is a good thing. Liverpool city region, my
:40:07. > :40:09.home, has fared through this recession much better than the
:40:10. > :40:15.naysayers that we would, and I am proud about that. The issue we have
:40:16. > :40:18.got, though, is that it has taken as a long time to recover from the
:40:19. > :40:23.global financial crisis that we saw in 2008. We have effectively had
:40:24. > :40:26.three years where we should have been recovering, and other countries
:40:27. > :40:32.around the world were recovering and we were not. Let's ask David. You
:40:33. > :40:37.raise issues there. What do you say to the criticisms Alison raises I
:40:38. > :40:40.think you answered them in your statistics. We're seeing
:40:41. > :40:43.improvements across the board. We want to make sure youth unemployment
:40:44. > :40:48.falls further, but if you look at what is going on in Alison and my
:40:49. > :40:52.constituency, it is dropping staggeringly across the north`west,
:40:53. > :40:56.by the order of 20 or 30%. We need to go further, because this must be
:40:57. > :41:01.sustained by private`sector led growth. That is what is happening.
:41:02. > :41:04.The naysayers, including Ed Miliband and Ed Balls, were saying this was
:41:05. > :41:10.impossible, and if there was an Academy Awards for forecasting
:41:11. > :41:17.failure, it would be with them, because they did not see what was
:41:18. > :41:21.happening with growth of jobs. I'm sorry... Let me finish. It is to
:41:22. > :41:25.local businesses we have seen growth, and we have unleashed their
:41:26. > :41:28.potential. George Osborne said he would close the deficit by the end
:41:29. > :41:32.of this Parliament. He has failed. He said he would protect our
:41:33. > :41:35.triple`A rating, and he has failed. I can't possibly think that the
:41:36. > :41:43.Chancellor must feel that he has succeeded on every measure. The fact
:41:44. > :41:46.is, he has not. Your leaders said listen to the IMF, and this week,
:41:47. > :41:51.they have increased their broadcast for our growth trajectory, and so,
:41:52. > :41:54.enough said. We are moving forward in the right direction. We have to
:41:55. > :41:59.leave that there. We have heard much about how the cuts affected councils
:42:00. > :42:02.in places like Liverpool, but this week, ministers were in the city to
:42:03. > :42:08.launch a pilot scheme which might help. The local impact fund aims to
:42:09. > :42:10.hand out ?100 million to charities and social enterprises across
:42:11. > :42:16.England, creating and improving services.
:42:17. > :42:22.Founded and managed by local parents, this nursery in Liverpool
:42:23. > :42:29.is a community hub which, with more money, believes it could do much
:42:30. > :42:33.more. We are based on a series of 29 cabins from which we deliver 10
:42:34. > :42:39.places of childcare everyday. It is not ideal. We are currently bidding
:42:40. > :42:44.to refurbish a grade two listed building, which would be absolutely
:42:45. > :42:48.ideal. It would be fantastic power community and the children. This set
:42:49. > :42:53.of buildings was meant to be temporary. After ten years, the
:42:54. > :42:56.nursery is still here. Down the road, this is the listed building
:42:57. > :43:00.that Local Impact Fund cash could help bring back to life. So where is
:43:01. > :43:04.the fund coming from? ?1 million comes from Europe, which is matched
:43:05. > :43:10.by another million from a charitable investment fund. The Local Impact
:43:11. > :43:14.Fund could provide unsecured loans of between 50000 and ?250,000 to
:43:15. > :43:19.local social enterprises or charities. Last year, Liverpool so
:43:20. > :43:23.its European funding cut in line with other English cities. The mayor
:43:24. > :43:28.is happy to pilot the Local Impact Fund in Liverpool, but he says it is
:43:29. > :43:33.hardly redressing the balance for lost funds. It is not simple to get
:43:34. > :43:42.carried away. We have lost a, so I don't think it really balances that
:43:43. > :43:44.out. `` hundred and ?30,000. But it will still help those companies
:43:45. > :43:48.deliver more in communities like ours. This room full of charity and
:43:49. > :43:52.social enterprise bosses know the bottom line is what counts. Many
:43:53. > :43:56.have been turned down by traditional lenders, according to the manager of
:43:57. > :43:59.the charitable fund. We are interested in the outcomes. We have
:44:00. > :44:06.a track record of ten years of making loans to organisations in the
:44:07. > :44:08.local that have been hugely successful and grown, and they have
:44:09. > :44:14.grown in terms of what they have been able to do for local
:44:15. > :44:16.communities. If Liverpool's pilot succeeds, community nurseries and
:44:17. > :44:20.other groups like this across the north`west will get their chance to
:44:21. > :44:27.bid for funds of their own. Is this the elusive big society I
:44:28. > :44:32.think it is the big society at work. It is community work, the right way
:44:33. > :44:36.to go. Talking with Alison beforehand, we both work in our
:44:37. > :44:40.communities. If you can engage with the business community and community
:44:41. > :44:44.groups and local authorities and provide a vehicle you can channel
:44:45. > :44:46.funding in from Europe and from central government and local
:44:47. > :44:51.enterprise partnerships, you have a vehicle that will make a big
:44:52. > :44:56.difference. Do you agree? The point I agree on, and we definitely do
:44:57. > :44:59.agree, some of the most worthwhile things you get involved in as an MP
:45:00. > :45:02.are in your constituency at the grassroots, bringing people
:45:03. > :45:07.together. I would not be doing my job as an opposition member of
:45:08. > :45:10.Parliament if I didn't point out what more councils like Liverpool
:45:11. > :45:14.and Wales could be leading on it they had had a similar level of cuts
:45:15. > :45:20.as Surrey and other places that don't have half the deprivation we
:45:21. > :45:24.do. I think he is right on that It is a good thing in and of itself,
:45:25. > :45:28.but let's not get carried away. The amount of struggle local authorities
:45:29. > :45:32.are still facing is still highly significant. The ferocity of the
:45:33. > :45:36.cuts they face undermines their ability to collaborate with others.
:45:37. > :45:41.It is good news. It is innovative and will help a lot different
:45:42. > :45:47.charities get involved. All I would say yes, yes, and let's have a fair
:45:48. > :45:51.deal for cities in the north so we can do even more of those and have
:45:52. > :45:56.even more good news. Not just cities, the area 's roundabout. I
:45:57. > :45:59.want the north`west to succeed. The point Alison is making is this is a
:46:00. > :46:03.sticking plaster to bring in little projects which actually, councils
:46:04. > :46:07.should have the power to be doing themselves. It is not all about the
:46:08. > :46:11.council. If you try and bring about social change just with the council,
:46:12. > :46:16.you will not succeed. You must involve local businesses, community
:46:17. > :46:21.groups. We both know that. This is the first Liverpool. Alison does not
:46:22. > :46:28.know that. What I see on the ground is my local authority, Wirral,
:46:29. > :46:37.trying to underpin things that want to do things in the community. But
:46:38. > :46:41.they're constantly drawn away from that by having to manage horrific
:46:42. > :46:45.cuts. Council officers cannot possibly do what they need to do if
:46:46. > :46:48.they are focused internally. If you leveraged the funding that comes in
:46:49. > :46:51.through bigger community engagement and match funding from businesses
:46:52. > :46:56.and Europe, you will have better results. It is a first for Liverpool
:46:57. > :46:58.and the north`west. We have other local enterprise partnerships coming
:46:59. > :47:03.in from Cheshire, Warrington, Lancashire and Cumbria. This will
:47:04. > :47:10.roll out across the region. Is it also an example of how good Europe
:47:11. > :47:14.can be for people? No, I think there are funds. There are European
:47:15. > :47:18.structural funds. We can have a separate debate about how useful
:47:19. > :47:21.they are and how best they could be allocated, but while they exist
:47:22. > :47:25.let's use them for our region. These vehicles are the way to do it. Thank
:47:26. > :47:29.you. According to one survey this week,
:47:30. > :47:32.landlords are closing the doors to tenants on benefits. They are
:47:33. > :47:35.concerned about them not paying rent on time when universal credit is
:47:36. > :47:41.eventually roll that across the region. That is because it is paid
:47:42. > :47:49.to tenants rather than directly to landlords. That could lead to a
:47:50. > :47:53.shortage of homes. The way in which housing benefits
:47:54. > :47:57.are paid is changing, and for landlords, there is no room for risk
:47:58. > :48:08.all for tenants who could end up in arrears. It was awful. It was the
:48:09. > :48:12.lowest point. Joanne is a single mother on benefits. Her rent is paid
:48:13. > :48:16.directly to the landlord. Under universal credit, she will get the
:48:17. > :48:21.money and will have to budget for rent. In the past, she has been
:48:22. > :48:29.evicted, and fears the same could happen again. Day`to`day living now
:48:30. > :48:37.is a nightmare, to be honest. Sometimes, we can't eat, and
:48:38. > :48:41.basically, it is just a struggle. It is one less thing to worry about
:48:42. > :48:46.while it is going straight to the landlord. If it came to me, I would
:48:47. > :48:52.debate whether to give it all to him or to chop up anything that I need.
:48:53. > :48:55.Private sector tenants already have their housing benefit paid to them,
:48:56. > :49:00.unless special arrangements have been made with the council. But with
:49:01. > :49:07.plans to change benefit payments from fortnightly to monthly, some
:49:08. > :49:10.landlords are reluctant to take on tenants on benefits. The actual
:49:11. > :49:13.concept of universal credit is very good, apart from the fact may want
:49:14. > :49:18.to include housing benefit and pay this directly to the tenant. At the
:49:19. > :49:21.moment, we take a of housing benefit tenants who are vulnerable, and the
:49:22. > :49:29.benefit comes to us. When this doesn't happen, that is going be a
:49:30. > :49:32.serious problem. This is why many landlords are veering away and
:49:33. > :49:35.evicting tenants. The government says there has been no fall in the
:49:36. > :49:40.number of claimants in the private rented sector.
:49:41. > :49:47.According to a recent survey, four out of five landlords are unwilling
:49:48. > :49:51.to let properties to people who received housing benefit. In the
:49:52. > :49:55.last 12 months, seven in ten landlords letting to tenants on
:49:56. > :50:01.benefits are owed around ?3000. There are huge pressures on housing
:50:02. > :50:04.and the welfare system, so what is the solution? Really what the
:50:05. > :50:10.government needs to do is have a good, clear fallback, that if there
:50:11. > :50:15.is a problem, the rent will be paid directly to the landlord. Many
:50:16. > :50:19.people on benefits can manage their finances, but unfortunately, the
:50:20. > :50:24.experience of landlords letting to benefit tenants in the last year is
:50:25. > :50:28.that 70% of them have had arrears from those tenants. So people on
:50:29. > :50:31.benefits are going to be the last choice for landlords if they feel
:50:32. > :50:38.they can get other tenants who are less risky. The Citizens Advice
:50:39. > :50:44.Bureau in Manchester deals with hundreds of calls every day to with
:50:45. > :50:48.housing benefit. With a shortage of social housing, more people needing
:50:49. > :50:51.to rent, and changes to the welfare system, there are major concerns
:50:52. > :50:56.that many could end up on the streets. People in social housing
:50:57. > :51:00.are subject to what is called the spare room subsidy, better known as
:51:01. > :51:06.the bedroom tax, meaning if they have one spare room, they have a 14%
:51:07. > :51:09.benefit cut. If there are two rooms, that is 25%. Many people simply
:51:10. > :51:17.cannot afford to stay in their social housing, so they are having
:51:18. > :51:19.to look for properties in the private rented sector. It is putting
:51:20. > :51:22.up competition for those rented properties, and we have found in our
:51:23. > :51:26.research that if you are on benefits, you cannot afford many of
:51:27. > :51:30.the properties in that sector. The government says its reforms are
:51:31. > :51:34.about restoring fairness to a welfare system that has spiralled
:51:35. > :51:38.out of control. But landlords are yet to be convinced that they won't
:51:39. > :51:44.be out of pocket. We are joined from London by Kate
:51:45. > :51:48.Webb from Shelter, the homelessness charity. Thank you for being here.
:51:49. > :51:53.Please explain what these changes are. Very little is actually
:51:54. > :51:57.changing. At the moment, most private tenants on housing benefit
:51:58. > :52:01.to help pay rent received the money to themselves, and they are
:52:02. > :52:04.responsible for paying it onto their landlord. That is also what will
:52:05. > :52:07.happen under universal credit. There are rules that protect landlords, so
:52:08. > :52:10.if someone has a lot of problems which mean they might struggle to
:52:11. > :52:16.manage their finances or if they go into arrears, protection kicks in to
:52:17. > :52:20.make sure landlords get the money. But in the broad scheme of things,
:52:21. > :52:24.it is business as usual, which is why we are slightly confused by the
:52:25. > :52:30.reaction from some landlords. As we saw in our film, landlords do seem
:52:31. > :52:33.to be worried. They are, and I think the government hasn't done a good
:52:34. > :52:37.enough job at explaining to landlords what is changing, and more
:52:38. > :52:40.importantly, what is not changing. We can tell from talking to them
:52:41. > :52:45.that lots of them seem to think the protection it disappearing, or that
:52:46. > :52:48.it will be a confusing situation. We are seeing to the government they
:52:49. > :52:53.must do better at reassuring landlords that the risk is not
:52:54. > :53:01.really there. Kate, overall, for tenants on benefits, how difficult
:53:02. > :53:05.might this get? We are very worried. Housing benefit is not an an usual
:53:06. > :53:10.situation to be in. Lots of us find that our income drops a while and we
:53:11. > :53:13.need support to pay the rent, but we are worried that because landlords
:53:14. > :53:17.are evidently very nervous at the moment, more of them will say, we
:53:18. > :53:23.will not take anyone who is even a risk, someone even with an insecure
:53:24. > :53:26.job for changing job in the near future. We are worried people will
:53:27. > :53:31.find it very hard to find somewhere to rent. We are already seeing that.
:53:32. > :53:35.The number of people made homeless because their landlord has withdrawn
:53:36. > :53:38.the tenancy is at an all`time high, and we are concerned about how
:53:39. > :53:45.ordinary families will keep a roof over their head. Thank you very
:53:46. > :53:47.much. David, you must be worried? I don't quite understand why the
:53:48. > :53:52.landlords are coming to the conclusions they have come to. She
:53:53. > :53:55.is saying because you have not explained it properly. But there are
:53:56. > :53:59.protections in place. There where one or two people who said they
:54:00. > :54:04.might do this, and it was reported if you weeks ago. But when I was in
:54:05. > :54:08.business 20 years before I came into Parliament, I always found that the
:54:09. > :54:13.creditworthiness of potential clients or customers, and if they
:54:14. > :54:16.were able to be supported by the product we are offering, we would
:54:17. > :54:19.take them on board. The issue was giving confidence to landlords that
:54:20. > :54:25.this does not apply to everyone on housing benefit. Why did you need to
:54:26. > :54:31.change the system at all? The point is, when people get into work, 5%
:54:32. > :54:37.of them get paid on a monthly basis. What we want to do is to get people
:54:38. > :54:41.ready for returning to work, so at the moment, benefits are paid every
:54:42. > :54:44.two weeks. The idea here is give people the responsibility to pay
:54:45. > :54:48.their own rent. They get paid on a monthly basis, and they can pay it
:54:49. > :54:54.to the landlord. That is all that has changed. We're making sure there
:54:55. > :54:57.are protections that landlords, if a tenant gets into arrears over eight
:54:58. > :55:00.weeks, they can make sure those payments get paid back to the
:55:01. > :55:07.landlord rather than the tenant Allison, what do you think? This is
:55:08. > :55:14.another DWP special. A bit more of a mess from Iain Duncan Smith and go.
:55:15. > :55:19.Universal credit all sounds lovely. You support the idea, then? Well,
:55:20. > :55:23.but you have to deliver things. It is not enough on government to have
:55:24. > :55:28.nice ideas. You must do things. Iain Duncan Smith will have had a whole
:55:29. > :55:32.five years to get this done, and it is absolute chaos. This is another
:55:33. > :55:36.example of the department being in a bit of a shambles, and unable to get
:55:37. > :55:41.anything done. Clearly, landlords are confused about something here,
:55:42. > :55:46.and they have issues and concerns, and if you look at the many reports
:55:47. > :55:49.there have been into the process of universal credit, and the things we
:55:50. > :55:53.have heard in Parliament about the inability of the department to
:55:54. > :55:56.manage this change, it makes me surprised that ministers are still
:55:57. > :56:02.talking about it as of everything is fine. They must be totally
:56:03. > :56:06.disconnected from the reality. There is a huge culture we need to
:56:07. > :56:10.change, the way that welfare is delivered. We have done it for ages.
:56:11. > :56:15.I think Tony Blair wanted to do it in his first Parliament. We have had
:56:16. > :56:24.three years. There are fundamental changes in direction. It is a ? 0
:56:25. > :56:26.billion saving. How many times have ministers come back to parliament
:56:27. > :56:31.Otello is yet more delays in these changes? I am not surprised people
:56:32. > :56:35.are confused about what is happening here. Kate Webb from Shelter who we
:56:36. > :56:41.heard from did not seem to have a problem in principle, it was just
:56:42. > :56:46.the communication. Yes. As I say, it seems to be another DWP special of
:56:47. > :56:50.confusing people, saying this is a timeline of what will happen, and
:56:51. > :56:54.then saying actually, no, we don't know. It is no surprise people are
:56:55. > :56:59.confused, given the chaos they ceded to be in. It is true, isn't it, that
:57:00. > :57:03.landlords seem to be worried about having to deal with the DWP as
:57:04. > :57:07.opposed to councils at the moment? From your place it seems so. I had
:57:08. > :57:12.not had communication from landlords in my area. But look at the
:57:13. > :57:16.statistics in the last two years. The number of people in the private
:57:17. > :57:19.rented sector has increased. So I understand there are concerns, and
:57:20. > :57:23.this is a big chunk of that sector. One third of people in it are on
:57:24. > :57:26.housing benefit. I don't think landlords will be changing
:57:27. > :57:30.significantly, and we must address the concerns of those who have
:57:31. > :57:39.raised it. Do you agree that if the report was delivered, competently,
:57:40. > :57:42.if you like? I think, given the housing market and the lack of
:57:43. > :57:47.supply and need to build more houses, you need to look at the way
:57:48. > :57:51.housing benefit is delivered. The big underlying problem is the lack
:57:52. > :57:56.of support that would supply, and we need to do more on that as a
:57:57. > :58:00.country. We need to have good houses available for all families. We are
:58:01. > :58:07.working through those issues on the supply side. And now, 60 seconds.
:58:08. > :58:11.The Ribble Valley MP Nigel Evans has pleaded not guilty to charges of
:58:12. > :58:17.sexual offences against seven men. His trial is due to start in March.
:58:18. > :58:20.Preston's Guildhall could close if a buyer could not be found. The
:58:21. > :58:25.council is ending a ?1 million subsidy to save money. Cumbria and
:58:26. > :58:29.Wigan councils also announced further cuts. Ricky Tomlinson's
:58:30. > :58:31.campaign to overturn a 40`year`old conviction was debated in the
:58:32. > :58:35.Commons. He was jailed for conspiracy to
:58:36. > :58:41.intimidate following the builders' strike in 1972. Conditions were
:58:42. > :58:45.absolutely appalling. Rather than bashing bankers, the
:58:46. > :58:48.mayor of Salford wants in on the act. He thinks a council run bank
:58:49. > :58:53.could rid the market of payday lenders and loan sharks. Will try to
:58:54. > :58:56.make the best use of the interest we get on that money for the benefit of
:58:57. > :59:02.the people of Salford. And the Labour Euro MP and Elaine McCarthy
:59:03. > :59:05.is stepping down after 20 years in Brussels. She says it has been an
:59:06. > :59:11.enormous privilege and honour to serve the north`west.
:59:12. > :59:13.Let me ask you briefly about fracking, because your council
:59:14. > :59:20.leader in Cheshire East has said that they will not be any at all. Do
:59:21. > :59:24.you agree? Said that he won't be giving any permissions, I think In
:59:25. > :59:28.principle, I think there are economic benefits for fracking. We
:59:29. > :59:34.need to make sure the safety and environmental issues are understood
:59:35. > :59:37.completely. What he is saying is, there are actually other
:59:38. > :59:42.opportunities around. So you are against the idea of a blanket ban,
:59:43. > :59:46.as he once? I think there are issues on the environmental and safety
:59:47. > :59:52.front, but on principle, you can see there are benefits. What he is
:59:53. > :59:55.saying is, there are more immediate opportunities in geothermal around
:59:56. > :00:05.the crew area. Let's see what comes from that. Alison, goodbye to Arlene
:00:06. > :00:09.McCarthy. Yes. She has been a phenomenal MEP. She is someone I
:00:10. > :00:12.have worked with, and she has served us so well. I hope she goes on to do
:00:13. > :00:20.more than things, which I'm sure she will, but I'm sorry about politics
:00:21. > :00:24.and the north`west. Thank you both coming in. Next week, look at all
:00:25. > :00:26.women short lists with Esther McVey and Stephen Twigg. For now back to
:00:27. > :00:43.London. back to you.
:00:44. > :00:46.UKIP leader Nigel Farage is never far away from controversy, but this
:00:47. > :00:49.week he's been outdoing himself He was hit over the head with a placard
:00:50. > :00:52.by a protester in Kent, provoked outrage by saying women with
:00:53. > :00:59.children are worth less to city firms, and said the ban on owning
:01:00. > :01:02.handguns was 'crackers'. He also seemed less than sure of his party's
:01:03. > :01:06.own policies when I interviewed him on the Daily Politics. And the story
:01:07. > :01:11.that got everyone talking was the suggestion by a UKIP councillor that
:01:12. > :01:14.flooding is linked to gay marriage. We'll talk about all of that in a
:01:15. > :01:23.moment, but first, over to Nigel with the weather. Weather for all
:01:24. > :01:26.areas of the British Isles but definitely not "Bongo Bongo Land."
:01:27. > :01:33.You may have heard about a storm in a tea cup developed when you kip
:01:34. > :01:39.councillor in Oxfordshire blamed the floods on the gay marriage Bill The
:01:40. > :01:44.old party is focusing on the view of UKIP members like him, even though
:01:45. > :01:51.he had said a sell yuj of things before when a Tory councillor. How
:01:52. > :01:59.quickly things change depending on when the blouse. There are
:02:00. > :02:04.occasional barmy views by people of all persuasions. In Whitby a Labour
:02:05. > :02:10.councillor claimed of fathered a child with an extra terrorist ral,
:02:11. > :02:18.and said his real mother was a foot green alien. And in Wales a
:02:19. > :02:26.councillor thinking about heading off for the
:02:27. > :02:35.slopes, there were flurries of embarrassment for the Tories after
:02:36. > :02:41.Aidan Burly organised a Nazi skiing party in a resort.
:02:42. > :02:46.Anyone heading to Brussels, perhaps on the gravy train, watch out for
:02:47. > :02:50.hot air. In Britain temperatures are rising
:02:51. > :02:58.ahead of the European elections in May. It could get stormy, so advise
:02:59. > :03:02.light aircraft. Watch out for outbreaks of common sense, and no
:03:03. > :03:07.chance of cyclonic fruit cakes. Back to you, Andrew, with the rest of the
:03:08. > :03:12.Sunday Politics. Nick, if it was any other party that
:03:13. > :03:17.had bon through the past week it would be in meltdown. And maybe it
:03:18. > :03:22.is harming UKIP and maybe it isn't. What do you think? That just shows,
:03:23. > :03:28.that great weather forecast, Prince Charles now has a rival to be an
:03:29. > :03:34.excellent weather forecaster, as does the Duchess of Cornwall. It
:03:35. > :03:38.shows why Nigel Farage is the fefr candidate to the European elections.
:03:39. > :03:42.Our invitation to the British people to kick the establishment. The
:03:43. > :03:46.establishment have spent five years that the European Parliament is a
:03:47. > :03:53.waste of time, so who are you going to vote for? A Nigel Farage type of
:03:54. > :03:57.person. What was important about your eadviceration of Nigel Farage
:03:58. > :04:01.on Daily Politics is that when it came to the substance, they
:04:02. > :04:04.flounder. But the point about that party is they may have the thinnest
:04:05. > :04:11.set of policies, but people know what they stand for more than any
:04:12. > :04:17.other parties - get out of Europe, a grammar school in every town. If any
:04:18. > :04:22.other leading politician called for an end to the ban on handguns, at a
:04:23. > :04:25.time when we've seen these appalling gun deaths in the United States now
:04:26. > :04:31.almost one every week in some terrible siege in a school. It would
:04:32. > :04:40.be a crisis. It seems to wash off him. He's got congenital
:04:41. > :04:45.foot-and-mouthitis. Straight into another wild nothing to do with why
:04:46. > :04:50.people might vote UKIP. I don't think people are desperate to have
:04:51. > :04:55.handgun licences back in this country. It is such an unusual
:04:56. > :05:02.phenomenon, UKIP, that if this was a Tory or a Labour or a Lib Dem saying
:05:03. > :05:07.it, we've seen the damage done to the Lib Dems on a much more serious
:05:08. > :05:11.manner, we would say this is terminal. But maybe it adds to this
:05:12. > :05:17.image that we are not like the other parties. I think that is it. We keep
:05:18. > :05:22.waiting for these scandals and embarrassments to do damage to
:05:23. > :05:28.UKIP's poll ratings, but it's not working. It is ultimately because if
:05:29. > :05:34.you are an antiestablishment party, if you are an anti-system party the
:05:35. > :05:39.rules of the game which apply to the establishment parties don't apply to
:05:40. > :05:43.you. And the more ramshackle and embarrassing you are, the more
:05:44. > :05:50.authentic you seem. It what be take something for them not to finish
:05:51. > :05:54.second in May. Do they spend the following 12 months sinking in the
:05:55. > :05:58.poll snoos And George Osborne's strategy is fame everything as
:05:59. > :06:02.Labour versus the Conservatives The electorate will have their fun in
:06:03. > :06:08.May. Maybe the Tories will be beat into third place but in thejection
:06:09. > :06:16.is that -- but in the general election it is Labour versus the
:06:17. > :06:21.Tories. The Conservative Party will run around, 46 letters to Graham
:06:22. > :06:25.Brady, a leadership contest. That sort of scenario. UKIP, if it rules
:06:26. > :06:29.well in the European elections, could cause big trouble for Mr
:06:30. > :06:36.Cameron and Mr Clegg couldn't it? The big point about this, David
:06:37. > :06:41.Cameron said this is not a political party but a pressure group. This is
:06:42. > :06:47.the way to look at UKIP, and the way it is used by people in the right of
:06:48. > :06:54.the party, who say we have to do this. I like the policy of painting
:06:55. > :07:05.the trains in their old liveries. It would be like my old train set. I
:07:06. > :07:15.like the bigger passports. Pre-GNER... And London and Midland.
:07:16. > :07:18.I used to be a train spotter. Gordon Birtwhistle has been on the
:07:19. > :07:24.phone. Good to know you are watching but pity you are not here. He wanted
:07:25. > :07:29.to clarify he had constituency commitments to prevent him coming on
:07:30. > :07:32.the show to talk about becoming leader of the party, but he didn't
:07:33. > :07:35.dispute anything we said on the show.
:07:36. > :07:38.Yesterday, Ed Balls said that housing investment will be a central
:07:39. > :07:42.priority for the next Labour Government. It's a big issue, as the
:07:43. > :07:45.lack of new homes pushes up the the price of owning or renting. Well,
:07:46. > :07:47.tomorrow the Tories will announce what they say is the most ambitious
:07:48. > :07:55.programme of affordable housebuilding for 20 years. The
:07:56. > :08:01.Government sees housing as a really important part of the economy.
:08:02. > :08:06.That's why we are announcing a 23 billion package for 165,000 new
:08:07. > :08:10.affordable homes. So individual builders, councils, housing
:08:11. > :08:15.associations can bid for that money. Phase one, which we are halfway
:08:16. > :08:19.through at the moment, we've built 170,000 houses. 99,000 already
:08:20. > :08:27.coming out of the ground, so we ve made real progress on that. So,
:08:28. > :08:32.165,000 new, affordable homes. It is a lot. Let me add three more words.
:08:33. > :08:36.Over three years. It is not such a lot. It is not, and Labour's
:08:37. > :08:41.commitment is 200,000 homes a year and even that isn't enough. The
:08:42. > :08:46.problem here is that the vest interest is with people who already
:08:47. > :08:49.have homes. They have a vote in the system through the planning
:08:50. > :08:53.regulations. In London there is a gap in the hedge through Richmond
:08:54. > :08:58.Park through which you should be able to see St Paul's Cathedral
:08:59. > :09:03.That's why you cannot build homes where you want them. I don't think
:09:04. > :09:11.we want to build homes over Richmond Park. He wasn't saying that. That's
:09:12. > :09:15.dies an Tyne -- that's Byzantine. You've got to deal with supply,
:09:16. > :09:21.which is why Labour is talking about 200,000 a year, and what George
:09:22. > :09:25.Osborne has done with supply is helping with demand. We know the
:09:26. > :09:32.Help to Buy Scheme is pretty dangerous, and Mark Carney is keen
:09:33. > :09:37.to put the break on that. If you are to deal with supply, you have to do
:09:38. > :09:41.radical things. Chris Huhne talked about on brownfield sites you can
:09:42. > :09:45.tax people who are holding the land as if the development has taken
:09:46. > :09:49.place. Then if you are really going to deal with it you have to talk
:09:50. > :09:53.about the greenfield sites, and you have to deal with the garden cities
:09:54. > :09:57.argument, which is too much for the Tories. All the parties seem to
:09:58. > :10:01.agree building new houses is a political winner. I hope that they
:10:02. > :10:07.are right. I'm not sure they are. The housing market is the example of
:10:08. > :10:12.what economists call the insider in-outsider problem. People who are
:10:13. > :10:18.already homeowners have no rational incentive to vote for more housing
:10:19. > :10:21.stock. Even if you leave aside the Conservative arable objections, if
:10:22. > :10:25.you are a homeowner there is an interest to stick with the planning
:10:26. > :10:29.promise that we have. So then we are stuck between a rock and a hard
:10:30. > :10:35.place. Not only are we growing at the moment but our population is
:10:36. > :10:39.growing. I've seen projects that in quite quickly we will overtake
:10:40. > :10:42.Germany and become the largest populated country in Europe. If
:10:43. > :10:48.that's the case we've got to build homes. We have. If you look at Tower
:10:49. > :10:53.Hamlets in London, the population is r ging higher than the number of
:10:54. > :10:58.dwelling. Classically the theory's been young people are most affected
:10:59. > :11:04.by this and they don't vote much. But when their parents have young
:11:05. > :11:09.Johnny stuck at home at 37, that's an electoral issue. That's why the
:11:10. > :11:13.garden cities project is interesting, because they finance
:11:14. > :11:18.themselves. You zone it for development, it is worth ?2 million
:11:19. > :11:24.an acre and then you can build on it. But who is going to want the
:11:25. > :11:30.greenfield sites gone. And how quickly can we build garden cities
:11:31. > :11:35.today? Some were started before the Town and Country Planning Act. I've
:11:36. > :11:39.read stats about the way Chinese and Japanese are building houses and
:11:40. > :11:43.they were slower than that. Here's a thought, sticking on the housing
:11:44. > :11:47.theme. Ed Miliband came up with the energy freeze, a populist
:11:48. > :11:53.interventionist move. Then the use it or lose it to land developers.
:11:54. > :11:58.Then breaking up the banks. Now the 50p tax rate. How much would you put
:11:59. > :12:03.on Labour coming up for rent controls? That's already a big
:12:04. > :12:07.split. They are split already on it. They have. In London it is a popular
:12:08. > :12:12.policy. It might not play well in the rest of the country. I would say
:12:13. > :12:15.50-50 on that. I think Labour supporting rent controls like the
:12:16. > :12:20.Tories having a go at welfare. The policy may be individually popular
:12:21. > :12:24.but it sends an impression about the party which might be less attract
:12:25. > :12:28.active. It confirms underlying suspicions that vote these guys into
:12:29. > :12:33.power and suddenly they are tampering with the private economy.
:12:34. > :12:37.The memories of the '70s when Governments tried and failed to do
:12:38. > :12:41.that. It is riskier than a superficial reading of the polls
:12:42. > :12:46.would suggest. One to watch? I think they are looking at it. That was the
:12:47. > :12:51.key message of the Ed Balls speech on housing, is looking at supply and
:12:52. > :12:55.how you get to that 200,000 figure a year, which is substantially more
:12:56. > :13:00.than what Kris Hopkins is talking about. What we didn't get to talk
:13:01. > :13:04.about, remember we had Michael Wilshaw on, the Chief Inspector of
:13:05. > :13:08.Schools. We all consumed was Mr Gove's man, the Education
:13:09. > :13:12.Secretary's man. Now according to the Sunday Times he is spitting
:13:13. > :13:16.blood about the way Mr Gove and his office are speaking about him behind
:13:17. > :13:20.the scenes. We've checked the quotes and he stands by them, so I think
:13:21. > :13:24.we'll have to have the head of Ofsted back on the programme. If you
:13:25. > :13:28.are watching, we're here. All that to the Lib Dems who didn't come on
:13:29. > :13:31.today. That's all for today. Thanks to all
:13:32. > :13:35.my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday on BBC Two,
:13:36. > :13:36.and I'll be here again next week. Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the
:13:37. > :14:14.Sunday Politics. Britain, with 120,000 soldiers
:14:15. > :14:23.is now at war with Germany This would be the first
:14:24. > :14:31.truly modern war.