:00:36. > :00:40.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:46.Can Ed Politics.
:00:47. > :00:50.the investment our energy market badly needs? We'll be asking the
:00:51. > :00:53.Energy Secretary. Why has the anti-independence Better
:00:54. > :00:58.Together campaign suddenly got the jitters? We'll be quizzing Scottish
:00:59. > :01:00.Secretary Alistair Carmichael. And whatever happened to the BNP?
:01:01. > :01:08.They could be heading for Hello, I'm Arif Ansari ` coling up
:01:09. > :01:11.in the North West. My kingdom for a horse 500 xears
:01:12. > :01:16.after the War of the Roses, why one In London, changes to the authority
:01:17. > :01:18.which runs the capital's Fire Service. The Mayor has a political
:01:19. > :01:25.move designed to silence his critics.
:01:26. > :01:29.And with me, as always, the most useless political panel in the
:01:30. > :01:34.business, who we're contractually obliged to insult on a weekly basis.
:01:35. > :01:38.But not today, because they are our chosen ones. They are the brightest
:01:39. > :01:45.and the best, we've even hired a plane to prove it: Helen Lewis,
:01:46. > :01:52.Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:53. > :01:54.Right, left and centre of the Westminster Establishment have been
:01:55. > :01:58.unanimous in saying there would be no chance of monetary union with the
:01:59. > :02:02.rest of the UK for an independent Scotland. Then an unnamed minister
:02:03. > :02:08.spoke to our Nick saying that wasn't necessarily so, and that made the
:02:09. > :02:09.Guardian's front page. The SNP were delighted and the anti-independence
:02:10. > :02:13.campaign rushed to limit the damage. delighted and the anti-independence
:02:14. > :02:17.The faux pas has come at delighted and the anti-independence
:02:18. > :02:23.beginning to worry that things were going the Nationalists' way. Let's
:02:24. > :02:25.speak to a leading light in that campaign, Scottish Secretary
:02:26. > :02:34.Alistair Carmichael, who's in Aberdeen at the Scottish Liberal
:02:35. > :02:38.Democrat spring conference. Alistair Carmichael, why is there a
:02:39. > :02:49.sense of crisis now engulfing the no campaign? I think that is something
:02:50. > :02:53.of an overstatement. What you have got is, I am getting my own voice
:02:54. > :02:59.played back in my ear. What you have got here is one story from an
:03:00. > :03:04.unnamed source, a minister who we are told, we do not know for
:03:05. > :03:07.certain, who has speculated on the possibility of a currency union
:03:08. > :03:11.actually happening. I do not think that is helpful but it is not any
:03:12. > :03:16.big deal. You have to measure it against what we have got publicly
:03:17. > :03:19.named on the record. We have got a detailed intervention of the
:03:20. > :03:22.Governor of the Bank of England Mark Carney, outlining all the
:03:23. > :03:27.reasons why a currency union would not be a good idea. And then you
:03:28. > :03:31.have got independent advice from the permanent Secretary of the Treasury
:03:32. > :03:35.himself saying actually, this is such a bad idea, that I would never
:03:36. > :03:42.advise a chancellor to go ahead with it. You set one against the other
:03:43. > :03:42.and you see that pretty much the force of
:03:43. > :03:47.and you see that pretty much the against those of us who want to
:03:48. > :03:50.remain in the United Kingdom. All the
:03:51. > :03:53.remain in the United Kingdom. All day, if Westminster is negotiating
:03:54. > :03:57.with a new independent Scotland a deal is to be done, Faslane where
:03:58. > :04:03.the nuclear deterrent is, there is nowhere else in the UK to put that
:04:04. > :04:07.is, certainly not for the next 0 years, a deal would be done, the
:04:08. > :04:10.nuclear weapons would stay in Faslane and Scotland would get a
:04:11. > :04:15.monetary union with the rest of the UK. That is perfectly plausible
:04:16. > :04:20.isn't it? No, I'm sorry, it is simply not plausible. The economy is
:04:21. > :04:24.more important than anything else. What you have had here is very clear
:04:25. > :04:28.advice from the treasury officials saying it is not in the economic
:04:29. > :04:32.best interests of the people of England Wales, Northern Ireland any
:04:33. > :04:40.more than it is in the interests of people in Scotland. Where do you put
:04:41. > :04:49.the nukes? The outcome will not change. Where do you put the nukes
:04:50. > :04:52.when the Nationalists kick you out? I do not believe that will be a
:04:53. > :04:56.problem because I do not believe Scotland will vote for independence.
:04:57. > :05:00.But you might be asking the Scottish Nationalists, who are apparently
:05:01. > :05:04.promoting this, are they then not sincere when they say they want to
:05:05. > :05:10.remove nuclear weapons from Scotland? It seems to be a curious
:05:11. > :05:14.mixed message. As you know, I have not got the Nationalists, I have got
:05:15. > :05:17.you, so let me ask you the questions. You are widely seen as
:05:18. > :05:27.you, so let me ask you the running a campaign which is too
:05:28. > :05:30.negative. The Nationalists are narrowing the gap in the poll found
:05:31. > :05:34.you are squabbling among yourselves. This campaign is going pear shaped,
:05:35. > :05:38.isn't it? No, let's deal with the polls. All the polls show that the
:05:39. > :05:44.people of Scotland want to stay as part of the United Kingdom. Yes
:05:45. > :05:49.there were a couple of polls last week that said the gap was narrowing
:05:50. > :05:56.a little. The most recent poll of all, the poll on Wednesday which
:05:57. > :06:00.actually polled people's voting intentions on the question come
:06:01. > :06:03.September showed that only 28% of people in Scotland were prepared to
:06:04. > :06:07.say they were voting yes, as opposed to the 42% who were on our side of
:06:08. > :06:13.the argument saying they wish to remain part of the UK. That poll
:06:14. > :06:19.said women were skewing towards a yes vote and it showed that the
:06:20. > :06:24.don't knows were beginning to skew towards a yes vote. That is why you
:06:25. > :06:28.yourself wrote this morning that if your campaign does not get its act
:06:29. > :06:34.together, you would be sleepwalking into a split to quote yourself. No,
:06:35. > :06:38.to quote myself I said it was not impossible that the Nationalists
:06:39. > :06:41.could win that. That is absolutely the case. The biggest danger for the
:06:42. > :06:46.United Kingdom camp in this whole argument is people will look at the
:06:47. > :06:48.polls. They show us with a healthy lead consistently. As a consequence,
:06:49. > :07:04.they think this will lead consistently. As a consequence,
:07:05. > :07:07.can happen. I have got to tell everybody that it could, not least
:07:08. > :07:09.because the Nationalists have an enormous advantage in terms of the
:07:10. > :07:11.amount of money they have at their disposal to buy momentum. They will
:07:12. > :07:15.be advertising in cinemas, in football matches and on social
:07:16. > :07:20.media. We have got to realise what is coming and as a consequence, we
:07:21. > :07:27.have got to get our arguments in place and our campaign as sharp as
:07:28. > :07:31.theirs. Thank you for joining us. Nick, this unnamed minister who gave
:07:32. > :07:39.you the story, did he or she know what they were doing? I do not think
:07:40. > :07:43.they were sitting there wanting to blast this out there, because the
:07:44. > :07:48.agreed government position was there will not be a currency union, if
:07:49. > :07:55.there is a vote for independence. But what I was managing to get hold
:07:56. > :07:59.of whether thoughts that are in the deeper recesses of people's minds,
:08:00. > :08:03.when they are looking at the polls which have been narrowing, or there
:08:04. > :08:06.was Alistair Carmichael quite rightly says, the pro-UK vote is
:08:07. > :08:12.still ahead. People are looking down the line, what would happen after
:08:13. > :08:15.the 18th of September this year not just the next day but the next
:08:16. > :08:17.year, in those very lengthy negotiations that would take place,
:08:18. > :08:21.when there would be a lot of moving negotiations that would take place,
:08:22. > :08:25.places on the table. negotiations that would take place,
:08:26. > :08:29.then and that is what I managed to get hold of, that there are thoughts
:08:30. > :08:33.about all those pieces that would be on the table. It is not surprising
:08:34. > :08:37.that some in Westminster think that. Let's take the Shadow
:08:38. > :08:44.Chancellor Danny Alexander at his word, they do not want a monetary
:08:45. > :08:48.union. But if they are faced with giving the Scots a monetary union in
:08:49. > :08:51.a post-independent Scotland, or having to remove the nuclear
:08:52. > :08:57.submarines from Faslane, where they have nowhere else to put them,
:08:58. > :09:00.probably except North America, there is a deal to be done. I think
:09:01. > :09:05.whatever minister gave Nick his story is probably onto something. If
:09:06. > :09:09.the Scots vote for independence of course a deal will be done about the
:09:10. > :09:13.currency because it is not in London's interests to have a
:09:14. > :09:17.rancorous relationship with Edinburgh. Even if the deal is not
:09:18. > :09:28.done, how does one country stop another country using its. That is
:09:29. > :09:30.different. All London can really do is prevent Scottish intervention on
:09:31. > :09:34.the monetary policy committee. The interest rate would be set without
:09:35. > :09:39.any regard to the Scottish interest. Even that is only a fatal problem if
:09:40. > :09:44.the Scottish economy becomes so out of sync with the UK economy. Except
:09:45. > :09:47.it is a problem for Scotland's financial system because if you go
:09:48. > :09:53.down that route there is no means of down that route there is no means of
:09:54. > :09:55.financial system in the financial crisis. That is
:09:56. > :09:58.financial system in the financial rather have a monetary union. Is it
:09:59. > :10:01.not remarkable to hear the Secretary of State for Scotland here that the
:10:02. > :10:05.Nationalists are spending too much money, when he represents a campaign
:10:06. > :10:09.which brings together all the major parties in the UK and all the
:10:10. > :10:13.resources of the UK and he is bleating about the Nationalists
:10:14. > :10:18.having more to spend? I did think that was a funny line and it was in
:10:19. > :10:21.the Observer. It lays into Alex Salmond's plucky upstart idea that
:10:22. > :10:28.he's taking on this big establishment. I thought it was a
:10:29. > :10:33.bizarre open goal, I am losing my football metaphors, forgive me. The
:10:34. > :10:41.polls are so in favour of a no vote. But the trend has been going
:10:42. > :10:44.their way. We have six months left which is not enough to close the
:10:45. > :10:52.gap. They always tell you Alex Salmond is a strong finisher. The
:10:53. > :10:55.plucky upstarts have this funding from a millionaire. The Better
:10:56. > :10:59.Together campaign are being incredibly cautious about where they
:11:00. > :11:03.get their money from. They do not want to go to the City of London
:11:04. > :11:06.Police say, give us a couple of million.
:11:07. > :11:09.Being Energy Secretary used to be a bit of a dawdle, especially when
:11:10. > :11:17.North Sea oil was flowing. Now it's very much a hot potato as Ed Davey
:11:18. > :11:25.has been finding out the hard way. High household energy bills have
:11:26. > :11:31.energy companies account for 95 of energy companies account for 95 of
:11:32. > :11:35.the market. Off Johnson -- Ofgem said there had been possible tacit
:11:36. > :11:40.coordination in the timing of price rises and ordered an investigation
:11:41. > :11:43.by the competition and markets authorities which will look at
:11:44. > :11:47.whether the big six should be broken up. Where does that leave
:11:48. > :11:52.investment? The boss of Centrica made the point that you would not
:11:53. > :11:56.spend money building an extension if you knew in two years time your home
:11:57. > :12:01.might be bulldozed. The spare margin, that is what is left in the
:12:02. > :12:06.generating system to cope with a surge in demand on a cold winter's
:12:07. > :12:11.night, is due to drop to historically low levels in 2016
:12:12. > :12:16.according to Ofgem. Normally at around 15%, capacity could drop to
:12:17. > :12:22.2% after the next election and that could lead to a surge in the sale of
:12:23. > :12:24.candles. Now where is that light switch?
:12:25. > :12:33.Energy Secretary Ed Davey, joins me now. Oh, we have found the light
:12:34. > :12:38.switch! The gap between a peak winter demand and generating
:12:39. > :12:45.capacity could possibly reach 2 next winter or the winter after We
:12:46. > :12:49.will keep the lights on, that is for clear. When we came to power, energy
:12:50. > :12:54.investment had been relatively low. The Labour Party had failed to deal
:12:55. > :12:57.with the energy deficit. From day one we have
:12:58. > :13:03.with the energy deficit. From day massively. Investment has been
:13:04. > :13:07.billion a year. Last year was a record. Spare capacity is now
:13:08. > :13:12.heading to 2%. Why are you allowing it to get that no? Because we have
:13:13. > :13:17.been increasing investment massively, last was a record level,
:13:18. > :13:20.we will be able to keep the lights on. Some of the figures you are
:13:21. > :13:25.showing suggests we are not doing anything. We have not only done
:13:26. > :13:30.enough in our last three years, we have put in measures to stimulate
:13:31. > :13:34.huge amounts of extra investment. We have the healthiest pipeline
:13:35. > :13:38.investment in our history. We will come onto investment in a minute.
:13:39. > :13:43.None of that change is the fact that we will be close to 2% next winter
:13:44. > :13:50.or the winter after that. We have one major power station shut down,
:13:51. > :13:58.or a cold winter away from having major problems with energy supply.
:13:59. > :14:02.It is still 2%. Let me explain. The figures assume we are not doing
:14:03. > :14:06.anything but we are doing something. Look at the National Grid. They are
:14:07. > :14:10.able to bring in energy from interconnector is because we are
:14:11. > :14:17.connected up to Europe. They are able to create a reserve so if we
:14:18. > :14:23.get to problems, they will have a mothballed plant they can bring on.
:14:24. > :14:26.You have not agreed with anybody on that. The decision was taken last
:14:27. > :14:32.July. But no that. The decision was taken last
:14:33. > :14:38.under mothball its plant. We would not expect them to do that yet. Our
:14:39. > :14:43.plan is in place. On time, on schedule, as we already thought it
:14:44. > :14:49.would be. But you have not got a single agreement with a power supply
:14:50. > :14:56.who has mothballed plant to on the ball it. We did not expect to. Our
:14:57. > :15:00.plan is in me National Grid will do an election to allow those plants to
:15:01. > :15:03.come on. There is a huge amount of interest. There are gigawatts of
:15:04. > :15:06.power that can come in to come on. There is a huge amount of interest.
:15:07. > :15:11.There are gigawatts of power that can come into that auction and we
:15:12. > :15:15.are not other measures we can take and that is just in the short term.
:15:16. > :15:20.We have a plan for the medium-term. We will be running the first auction
:15:21. > :15:35.for new capacity. The final decision will be taken and we have learned
:15:36. > :15:37.lessons from what they do in North America and other European countries
:15:38. > :15:40.so we can stay minute mothballed plants and new plants to be built. I
:15:41. > :15:50.am absolutely clear there is not a problem. You only build 9000
:15:51. > :15:56.megawatts of new capacity from 2011-13. You have closed almost
:15:57. > :16:03.22,000 megawatts. Why would you be so
:16:04. > :16:06.22,000 megawatts. Why would you be figures are happening because we've
:16:07. > :16:10.known for a long time a lot of power plants were coming to the end of
:16:11. > :16:13.their life, coal power plants, nuclear power plants, and we had to
:16:14. > :16:21.increase the rate of investment but we... That shows clearly you are
:16:22. > :16:24.closing twice as much, you have to date, closed twice as much as you
:16:25. > :16:28.have opened, hence the lack of spare capacity. We knew a lot of them are
:16:29. > :16:32.coming back for the last Labour Government knew. We have increased
:16:33. > :16:35.the new so that's increasing significantly, far faster than under
:16:36. > :16:39.the last Government but also remember, you were very wrong at the
:16:40. > :16:47.beginning of your clip, margins at 15% are very own usual. They are
:16:48. > :16:51.historically high. The average margin was 25%. That was wasting a
:16:52. > :16:57.huge amount of money. But since privatisation, we've had margins
:16:58. > :17:03.between 5% and 10%. Normally, high margins historically, which is
:17:04. > :17:07.costly. Now we will have historically low margins. People
:17:08. > :17:10.have to pay for that, so we make sure the lights stay on, we have a
:17:11. > :17:14.short-term policy I have described to you, and medium-term policy and a
:17:15. > :17:16.long-term policy. The long-term policy comes huge investment between
:17:17. > :17:40.nuclear and optional, policy comes huge investment between
:17:41. > :17:48.on. Ofgem, Independent, says the chance of blackouts by 2016 has
:17:49. > :17:56.increased fourfold under your watch. What they say, if you read the
:17:57. > :18:00.report, if we did nothing, they would be problems. But we have been
:18:01. > :18:05.working with Ofgem. We have been working with National Grid, and we
:18:06. > :18:09.have agreed that there will be a reserve capacity which can come on
:18:10. > :18:15.if we get to the peak for the Best not just on the supply side but
:18:16. > :18:19.demand and into connectors. You talk about industry having to move to
:18:20. > :18:23.off-peak times. We say, they are prepared to that you paid for it,
:18:24. > :18:27.and it makes commercial sense for them, it's a sensible thing for the
:18:28. > :18:31.Wii will pay them to move to off-peak. You have huge diesel parks
:18:32. > :18:34.for the you talk as if that something new but it's been around
:18:35. > :18:40.for a long time for the 200 these contracts out there. We want to
:18:41. > :18:43.expand that. You have hundreds of diesel generators to click into
:18:44. > :18:51.haven't you? There's a whole range of generators. Diesel generation,
:18:52. > :18:55.dirty fuel. There's a of mothballed gas which can come. If you look at
:18:56. > :19:06.the increase of the independent generators, many companies,
:19:07. > :19:10.of power companies who are building a new power station and want to
:19:11. > :19:14.build new ones. This is a healthy situation. You say you made over 100
:19:15. > :19:18.billion new investment between now and the end of the decade to restore
:19:19. > :19:22.capacity and meet renewable targets. Now you have referred the
:19:23. > :19:27.Big Six to the competition commission, how much of that to
:19:28. > :19:32.expect to come from them? We will see what the market delivers. We
:19:33. > :19:37.have always expected independent generators to do a lot more than is
:19:38. > :19:42.happening in the past. How much from the Big Six? It's not for me to say
:19:43. > :19:46.it's going to be best from that company. The real interest is we
:19:47. > :19:51.have huge amounts of companies wanting to invest. If you look at
:19:52. > :19:55.independent analysis, they say Britain is one of the best places to
:19:56. > :19:58.invest in energy in the world. We are the worldly do in offshore
:19:59. > :20:01.wind, one of the best for renewables, one of the only
:20:02. > :20:06.countries getting nuclear power stations. Rather than the bleaker
:20:07. > :20:11.picture you're painting, the reverse is the case. We are seeing an
:20:12. > :20:16.investment renaissance. You say that. Let me give you some facts.
:20:17. > :20:21.Under this Government, only one gas plant has been under construction,
:20:22. > :20:24.only one started under your watch for the others were done under
:20:25. > :20:29.Labour. You have none in the pipeline. The Big Six has pulled
:20:30. > :20:31.back from further investment including new offshore wind
:20:32. > :20:33.investment and none of what you re talking about will come before 020
:20:34. > :20:39.anyway. That's simply not true. talking about will come before 020
:20:40. > :20:43.balance reserves I've talked about, the reserve planned: Making sure the
:20:44. > :20:47.mothballed plant could come on, I capacity market incentivising new
:20:48. > :20:53.power, will happen way before 2 20, so that's not true. But doesn't
:20:54. > :20:57.answer the extra capacity. You have no answer between now and the end of
:20:58. > :21:03.this decade. We have three answers. Let me repeat them for you. I said
:21:04. > :21:07.permanent, not the short-term ones you are putting in place to try to
:21:08. > :21:11.do with spare capacity. We have a short-term plan, of course, that's
:21:12. > :21:15.very sensible. Medium-term plan auctioning for new power stations.
:21:16. > :21:18.That can lead to both mothballed plant and when you plant, permanent
:21:19. > :21:25.plant being built, and the long term plan, to stimulator long-term
:21:26. > :21:29.investment, some of which will be built and come online way before the
:21:30. > :21:33.end of the decade. I'm afraid, it's a far rosier picture than your
:21:34. > :21:38.painting. It's also far more expensive, too. Let's look at how
:21:39. > :21:42.you are replacing relatively cheap energy with much more expensive
:21:43. > :21:49.sources of energy. Wholesale prices is ?50 per megawatt. You have done a
:21:50. > :21:52.deal with EDF, nuclear, ?92 50. You have indexed it for 30 years at 2012
:21:53. > :22:09.prices. All of that puts up our bills. First
:22:10. > :22:14.of all, the support of the low Carbon is just 4% on bills. What has
:22:15. > :22:18.been driving peoples bills over the last decade has been wholesale gas
:22:19. > :22:23.prices. No one knows what guys prices are going to be in the future
:22:24. > :22:27.-- gas prices. When you look at the Ukraine and other market indicators,
:22:28. > :22:31.many people are worried that by the time nuclear power stations come
:22:32. > :22:34.online for example, the price of gas could be significantly higher. You
:22:35. > :22:40.have indexed linked that for them by the time you get any power from
:22:41. > :22:48.this, it'll be up to ?125 per megawatt hour. The price of gas been
:22:49. > :22:52.going up far higher. Not recently. Despite Iran, Ukraine, Libya, not
:22:53. > :22:56.recently. The long-term forecast, Andrew, it's going to go higher but
:22:57. > :22:59.more importantly than that, this is an area we could disagree on but
:23:00. > :23:05.it's very important that power plants pay the cost of pollution. In
:23:06. > :23:08.those prizes, all of those prices except the wholesale out a steep
:23:09. > :23:13.price, you have those power stations paying the cost of air pollution. If
:23:14. > :23:19.gas and coal where paying the proper carbon price, you would see nuclear
:23:20. > :23:23.and renewables as competitive. It's very important that we ensure that
:23:24. > :23:28.power plants pay the cost of the pollution. When you were last on
:23:29. > :23:32.this programme to talk about this in May 2012, you said that the price of
:23:33. > :23:39.offshore wind was coming down fast. You told me it would be down by 30%
:23:40. > :23:42.offshore wind was coming down fast. is 155, and for the deeper stuff,
:23:43. > :23:46.offshore wind was coming down fast. it's going to be ?165. That's the
:23:47. > :23:53.first year of a limit control framework which had it coming down.
:23:54. > :23:59.If you talk to many companies, Siemens had invested with their
:24:00. > :24:05.partners, ?310 million with two new factories. They are talking about
:24:06. > :24:11.lower prices because what they are saying to me is that, rather than
:24:12. > :24:16.the 30% cost reductions I talked about, I was wrong, they are
:24:17. > :24:20.targeting 40%. You said prices would come down 30% in two years for that
:24:21. > :24:25.that was 2012 and they have gone higher. I absolutely did not say
:24:26. > :24:29.that. Your exact quote was 30% in the next few years. Your exact few
:24:30. > :24:34.years. You said two years, I sell a few years. I haven't changed a
:24:35. > :24:39.single moment that you said two years, I said a few years. That s
:24:40. > :24:44.what we are projecting. They will come down. You have to invest in
:24:45. > :24:47.technology. Let me give you this example. When people invest in
:24:48. > :24:56.mobile phones to start off with they were expensive, and they were
:24:57. > :25:01.clunky and the costs were going down for the one final question. You put
:25:02. > :25:05.the Big Six into investigation because they made a 5% return on
:25:06. > :25:06.investment and you're done a deal with EDF, nuclear power, which will
:25:07. > :25:12.guarantee them with EDF, nuclear power, which will
:25:13. > :25:15.every year for 30 with EDF, nuclear power, which will
:25:16. > :25:20.that underline the shambles of your energy policy? You have mixed up two
:25:21. > :25:24.separate things. The 5% Ofgem are talking about is on the supply
:25:25. > :25:29.retail side. The percentage you quoted for EDF is in the wholesale
:25:30. > :25:32.side of two different markets. It's the same return. It's not. You are
:25:33. > :25:39.comparing apples and pears, dangerous thing to do. You have to
:25:40. > :25:42.do have a high return but in the retail market, with a 5% stake,
:25:43. > :25:50.there is less risk, says a low return. Ed Davey, I'm sorry we
:25:51. > :25:55.haven't got more time. Thank you. Have me back. We will. Whatever
:25:56. > :25:59.happened to the BNP? The far right party looked as if it was on the
:26:00. > :26:02.verge of a major breakthrough not so long ago. Now it seems to be going
:26:03. > :26:05.nowhere. In a moment we'll be speaking to the party's press
:26:06. > :26:08.officer, Simon Derby. But first here's Giles. His report contains
:26:09. > :26:11.some flash photography. For a moment in 2009 Nick Griffin and the BNP had
:26:12. > :26:15.a spring in their step, smiling at their success of winning two seats
:26:16. > :26:18.in the European Parliament. They already were the second largest
:26:19. > :26:21.party in a London council and had a London Assembly seat. Despite
:26:22. > :26:33.concerns from mainstream parties their vote was up. Our vote
:26:34. > :26:36.increased up to 943,000. Savouring success was brief that morning as
:26:37. > :26:39.anti-far right protestors invaded and egged the press conference and
:26:40. > :26:40.forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty retreat.
:26:41. > :26:43.forced the BNP MEPs into a hasty that, in the years since, that
:26:44. > :26:46.retreat has that, in the years since, that
:26:47. > :26:57.electorally and in the minds of those who had given them that vote.
:26:58. > :26:59.For a number of years they were performing better than the UK
:27:00. > :27:03.Independence Party and other smaller parties like the Greens and respect.
:27:04. > :27:06.The problem for the BNP if they didn't make any inroads into other
:27:07. > :27:10.groups, they didn't go into the middle class, the young, they didn't
:27:11. > :27:14.go into women and ethnic minorities for obvious reasons. So the party
:27:15. > :27:20.was quickly handicapped from the outset. Not that you would have
:27:21. > :27:23.known that at the outset. In 20 6 in Barking and Dagenham, the party won
:27:24. > :27:26.12 council seats against a back drop of discontent with the ruling Labour
:27:27. > :27:35.council and Government and picking up on immigration and housing
:27:36. > :27:37.concerns in the borough. It's because of all the different
:27:38. > :27:41.nationality people moving in the area, they are taking over
:27:42. > :27:48.everything. My Nan and grandad lived there all their lives. I thought I
:27:49. > :27:54.would vote for BNP. Hopefully, yeah, they will get elected over here
:27:55. > :27:58.When I came to Barking, Dagenham and Redbridge in 2006, the BNP with a
:27:59. > :28:02.second largest party in one of the local councils. You can even find
:28:03. > :28:06.non-white people who voted BNP. Now they have no counsellors, and even
:28:07. > :28:10.though can when you talk to people, you will find among the older white
:28:11. > :28:17.working-class population concerned that the BNP claim to represent
:28:18. > :28:22.working-class population concerned what happened to that about? On
:28:23. > :28:26.behalf of all the people in Britain, we in Barking have not just beaten,
:28:27. > :28:31.that we have smashed the attempt of extremist outsiders. The local
:28:32. > :28:38.Labour MP was as clear in 2010 as she is now. I always knew if we
:28:39. > :28:42.could manage to ensure that wasn't a single BNP councillor left on the
:28:43. > :28:45.council and I won my seat, it would stop the process of disintegration.
:28:46. > :28:49.But what beat the BNP here in 2 10 was a mobilisation of the Labour
:28:50. > :28:53.vote. And today it is not hard to find the same discontent over the
:28:54. > :29:00.same issues. It's just finding a new political home. A couple of years
:29:01. > :29:05.ago, I used to vote Labour. Obviously, they haven't done nothing
:29:06. > :29:09.around here as much now, with jobs and unemployment, and housing and
:29:10. > :29:13.stuff like that about, basically, BNP ain't around here no more. Now
:29:14. > :29:18.it's more about UKIP and I believe that these UKIP are saying are true.
:29:19. > :29:22.If I thought BNP would make the difference, I would vote but is not
:29:23. > :29:26.in the people behind them. They all get bandaged with the same brush.
:29:27. > :29:31.I'm going to vote UKIP because BNP didn't get anywhere. What they say
:29:32. > :29:35.in UKIP, with a bit of luck, they will get somewhere. It's not racist
:29:36. > :29:40.but it's just that our kids haven't got jobs. Nick Griffin's dislike of
:29:41. > :29:42.UKIP is mutual but his once fellow MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the
:29:43. > :29:44.party issued a MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the
:29:45. > :29:52.programme saying BNP failure is MEP Andrew Brons who's now left the
:29:53. > :29:53.closer to home post 2010. It was after that election discontent arose
:29:54. > :30:11.amongst sections of the membership. Those members who left or were
:30:12. > :30:15.thrown out by Nick Griffin had already felt let down by his
:30:16. > :30:18.appearance on Question Time. It was a national platform for the BNP
:30:19. > :30:28.something they felt they had the right to through electoral success.
:30:29. > :30:34.This was no big breakthrough moment for Griffin, unlike it was for John
:30:35. > :30:38.Marina pen when he appeared on national television in France. He
:30:39. > :30:41.went on to mobilise a national force. Despite there being some
:30:42. > :30:45.voters tuned to their message, for the BNP, becoming such a force here
:30:46. > :30:52.has never looked quite so difficult. And Simon Derby from the BNP joins
:30:53. > :30:57.me now. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It was not long ago you
:30:58. > :31:03.had 55 councillors up and down the land, you now have two. You are on
:31:04. > :31:09.the brink of extinction. That is not true. I have watched the film. It is
:31:10. > :31:13.very negative as I would expect The party has faced a few problems. The
:31:14. > :31:19.main thing to bear in mind is that the issues, the problems the
:31:20. > :31:22.main thing to bear in mind is that faces have gone away. We won nearly
:31:23. > :31:26.a million votes in the European elections. We brought that mandate
:31:27. > :31:38.to the establishment and we were denied. Let's face it, we would --
:31:39. > :31:42.were denied any opportunity to take place in the political apparatus.
:31:43. > :31:49.You have been destroyed by a pincer movement. UKIP has taken away or
:31:50. > :31:55.more respectable voters and the EDL is better at anti-Muslim protests
:31:56. > :32:00.and street thuggery. The EDL is not a political party. I take your point
:32:01. > :32:05.about UKIP. The power structure took a look at us and so we were a threat
:32:06. > :32:11.to power. We were not making this stuff up, we meant it and they have
:32:12. > :32:16.co-opted our message. This shameless promotion of UKIP, you have evenly
:32:17. > :32:20.had him presenting the weather on this programme. That is
:32:21. > :32:26.unbelievable. That was a joke. Across Europe, in France, your
:32:27. > :32:30.sister party the National front will probably do very well. You can see
:32:31. > :32:35.the rise of the far right across Western Europe so why are you in
:32:36. > :32:46.decline? We are not far right, I reject that label. How would you
:32:47. > :32:59.describe yourselves nationalists and Patriots. Why are you in decline and
:33:00. > :33:03.other similar parties to yours are on the rise? You mentioned Barking
:33:04. > :33:08.and it is very interesting because I was involved in that campaign. What
:33:09. > :33:13.Margaret Hodge and her Labour Party did, they replaced the white
:33:14. > :33:17.indigenous population in Barking and Dagenham with Africans, that is how
:33:18. > :33:22.they won that election. For that was true, you would be doing well
:33:23. > :33:26.elsewhere. You have now got a leader who is declared bankrupt and your
:33:27. > :33:34.party is heading for bankruptcy No, it is not. It is over. You would
:33:35. > :33:38.like that. What I would like is irrelevant. Your membership is in
:33:39. > :33:44.deep decline. All parties have highs and lows. In 2009 they said it is no
:33:45. > :33:53.way you will win any seats in the European election. We did. And then
:33:54. > :33:58.you lost them. Parties win and lose seats. The Lib Dems will be
:33:59. > :34:06.annihilated. You deny you are far right. People used to say the BNP
:34:07. > :34:13.were neo-Nazis. Then Nick Griffin appeared with Golden Dawn. They are
:34:14. > :34:17.not neo-Nazis, they are Nazis. It is part and parcel of being in
:34:18. > :34:26.politics. You have to them? Of course we do, we have to
:34:27. > :34:31.speak to ordinary people. I am perfectly happy speaking to you at
:34:32. > :34:35.the BBC, the BBC have a terrible reputation but I am happy to be
:34:36. > :34:40.here. Mr Griffin has asked me, when will the BBC apologised for trying
:34:41. > :34:45.to put him in prison twice, merely for exposing a Muslim scandal. Why
:34:46. > :34:53.can't Nick Griffin appear on TV and self? He would not appear. He was in
:34:54. > :35:01.Syria. He literally flew out to Damascus and prevented a war. We
:35:02. > :35:06.decided we would not interfere in Syria. The BBC never covered that.
:35:07. > :35:09.Please do not make out we are just an ordinary political party you
:35:10. > :35:16.cover like everybody else. It is completely different. All the signs
:35:17. > :35:20.are, membership, performance at the polls, performance at elections the
:35:21. > :35:25.problem with your leadership is you are now going the way of the
:35:26. > :35:30.National front, heading for oblivion. As I said to you before,
:35:31. > :35:34.that may be the case, if all the problems we had not highlighted and
:35:35. > :35:40.how we got a huge vote so many years ago, six years ago now, five years
:35:41. > :35:45.ago, in 2009, if they were not around. These things are only going
:35:46. > :35:48.to get worse. We are looking at a prototype Islamic republic that is
:35:49. > :35:52.going to be set up in this country. That will
:35:53. > :35:56.Only the British National Party are prepared
:35:57. > :35:59.Only the British National Party are it. Word leaked out that I was doing
:36:00. > :36:04.this interview with you before the weekend. Isn't it a sign of how
:36:05. > :36:09.irrelevant you now are that not a single person has turned up at New
:36:10. > :36:14.Broadcasting House this morning to protest? Used to be hundreds would
:36:15. > :36:18.turn up when we said the BNP were on. That is the left for you, they
:36:19. > :36:22.put the clocks forward and they could not be bothered to get out of
:36:23. > :36:25.bed. I think they are still in bed. Thank you.
:36:26. > :36:28.You're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in
:36:29. > :36:39.Scotland who leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in
:36:40. > :36:53.Hello, I'm Arif Ansari. My kingdom for a horse. Coming up in the North
:36:54. > :36:56.West ` 500 years after the War of the Roses, why one town's still at
:36:57. > :37:00.the centre of a York`Lancaster feud. We'll be looking at the annhversary
:37:01. > :37:03.of the 1974 boundary changes that left some of our towns feelhng a
:37:04. > :37:06.little lost. But ready for battle in the studio this week, the L`bour MP
:37:07. > :37:12.for Liverpool Riverside, Lotise Ellman. And John Pugh, the Liberal
:37:13. > :37:18.Democrat MP for Southport. Do these boundary changes still
:37:19. > :37:31.resonate? They were partly based on economic geography, and that is
:37:32. > :37:34.sensible, but also a bit of gerrymandering. There has bden a
:37:35. > :37:40.strong movement to take Southport away in the past. You have
:37:41. > :37:43.experience of two tier authorities because you were a leader of
:37:44. > :37:50.Lancaster county council. Which works better? I think both can work
:37:51. > :37:57.and it depends on the naturd of the area. In Lancashire, the cotnty has
:37:58. > :38:01.worked very well indeed and has even helped to set up a National Fire and
:38:02. > :38:07.rescue service for internathonal disasters, so that worked vdry well.
:38:08. > :38:09.In Liverpool, the Liverpool county council has done well and also the
:38:10. > :38:13.Metropolitan setup. More on that later, but first, it's
:38:14. > :38:16.been another damaging week for one of the region's biggest brands, The
:38:17. > :38:20.Co`Op, with the discovery of a 400 million black hole in the fhnances
:38:21. > :38:23.of the group's bank and an `dmission of sin from its disgraced former
:38:24. > :38:35.chairman, the reverend Paul Flowers. How has it come to this?
:38:36. > :38:39.The group was formed more than 50 years ago when the Rochdale Pioneers
:38:40. > :38:46.decided it would be cheaper to buy things together. The organisation
:38:47. > :38:50.has 7 million members, 4800 shops and 90,000 staff. Among its staff ``
:38:51. > :39:03.services, a bank, pharmacy, but the problems began
:39:04. > :39:07.when it merged with the Britannia building society. An attempt to buy
:39:08. > :39:11.it revealed a ?1.5 billion black hole and then last year Paul Flowers
:39:12. > :39:17.resigned after being filmed buying class a drugs. The bank also had to
:39:18. > :39:19.accept private investment for the first time.
:39:20. > :39:22.So what's the future for thd Co`Op and organisations like it, that are
:39:23. > :39:25.run by and for their members? Here's Euan Doak.
:39:26. > :39:28.Building a new future at a new stadium. When some fans broke away
:39:29. > :39:32.from Manchester United after the Glazer family takeover, thex wanted
:39:33. > :39:40.their new club to be as far away from that form of ownership as
:39:41. > :39:43.possible. There are lots of models of football clubs and what was
:39:44. > :39:48.important to us was making sure about supporters was at the heart of
:39:49. > :39:52.everything we did. Supporters have to have a greater say in how things
:39:53. > :39:55.are done and we believe this gives them that opportunity. But that idea
:39:56. > :39:58.of a club, being owned by its members, mirrors a business model
:39:59. > :40:01.that has floundered recentlx at the Co`Op. The Co`Op bank was albitious
:40:02. > :40:04.and became very big very quhckly. Its former Chairman Paul Flowers
:40:05. > :40:14.says that was something encouraged by the government. There was
:40:15. > :40:20.pressure but I believe and know it originated higher up with the
:40:21. > :40:26.Chancellor himself. Shortly after they open their new headquarters,
:40:27. > :40:30.more problems emerged and P`ul Flowers became the poster boy for
:40:31. > :40:33.everything that went wrong. The chief executive resigned saxing it
:40:34. > :40:38.was unworkable but does this mean this is the end of the coopdrative
:40:39. > :40:41.model? The complex nature of the Co`Op's structure meant the board
:40:42. > :40:45.struggled to keep up with the ambitions of the executive. It is
:40:46. > :40:48.always very difficult to hold the executive to account. The
:40:49. > :40:55.co`operative group was blessed with this unusual structure. Thex had
:40:56. > :41:00.some professional managers but it also had things like a Methodist
:41:01. > :41:03.minister, a plasterer, a herbalist, lecturers and tutors. This week the
:41:04. > :41:06.Co`Op ended a public consultation. And as the group debates its future
:41:07. > :41:14.direction, other Cooperativds are having more success. Meanwhhle other
:41:15. > :41:17.cooperatives are proving successful. One thing they do well is to have a
:41:18. > :41:23.simple business and democratic model. One member, one vote. No
:41:24. > :41:26.complicated committees and ht is very accessible. A clear vision and
:41:27. > :41:30.clear goals means the co`opdrative model can bear fruit. Something they
:41:31. > :41:39.need to hang on to as they continue to grow.
:41:40. > :41:43.What has gone wrong? Cooper`tives are very successful right across the
:41:44. > :41:49.country and thousands work on them very successfully indeed. What has
:41:50. > :41:53.happened to the Co`op bank hs sad but it is challenging. They led the
:41:54. > :41:54.way on ethical banking but the current crisis is something that has
:41:55. > :42:04.to be resolved. management to account and that is
:42:05. > :42:11.why the various studies takhng place now have two sure how the Co`op s
:42:12. > :42:15.ethos of mutuality has been combined with problem business acumen with
:42:16. > :42:22.that democratic structure f`iling to bring them to account. Do you agree
:42:23. > :42:25.with Paul Flowers that therd are questions for George Osbornd on
:42:26. > :42:30.whether or not the government put them under pressure to go for that
:42:31. > :42:36.financial deal which ultimately did not work out? The Treasury select
:42:37. > :42:39.committee is currently lookhng at that issue and they will be
:42:40. > :42:45.following up points made in the allegations, so that is somdthing
:42:46. > :42:50.pursue. The minister has sahd the Treasury Minister only had
:42:51. > :42:56.discussions long after the court decided to go down that road. I am
:42:57. > :43:04.disappointed, I am a loyal supporter and I have my Co`op card here, and I
:43:05. > :43:08.follow a model of complete probity. Had we known that a former Labour
:43:09. > :43:14.councillor was no banking experience was running the show, we wotld have
:43:15. > :43:17.been much more concerned, not to say they are not many decent and able
:43:18. > :43:22.people working at the Co`op. The atmosphere was too cosy. Thdy are
:43:23. > :43:28.reviewing their structure and have to find a way of combining hts ethos
:43:29. > :43:35.and structure was running a business properly. That has happened
:43:36. > :43:41.effectively for many years `nd it has to be put right. Do you think it
:43:42. > :43:46.can be put right? It is dam`ging and it has to be put right. It has a
:43:47. > :43:49.protest at the end has to h`ve a proud future. The has to have a
:43:50. > :43:52.proud future. The Hess delax will stand them strong and many people
:43:53. > :43:59.have an allegiance that goes back generations. You are Labour
:44:00. > :44:06.co`operative MP but that br`nd has been somewhat tarnished? Wh`t has
:44:07. > :44:10.happened at the Co`op bank has put question marks over how it was
:44:11. > :44:17.managed and held to account. But Paul Flowers was not just that the
:44:18. > :44:21.bank? Those are things that Paul Flowers has two answer but the
:44:22. > :44:30.co`operative group are lookhng again at the structures and how they
:44:31. > :44:32.operate and have to get it right. 40 years ago this week, loc`l
:44:33. > :44:35.government was dramatically remodelled and the maps redrawn A
:44:36. > :44:38.new two`tier council system was created and not without controversy.
:44:39. > :44:41.Furnace for example finding itself in the new shire county of Cumbria.
:44:42. > :44:44.Merseyside County Council and Greater Manchester County Council
:44:45. > :44:47.were born, only to be abolished by the Thatcher government. But now
:44:48. > :44:55.with a new Merseyside combined authority, are we turning ftll
:44:56. > :44:58.circle? Elaine Dunkley reports. Saddleworth, known for its dramatic
:44:59. > :45:11.moors and mills, but it's a place where boundary lines and political
:45:12. > :45:16.battle lines are drawn. Bec`use this district known as Saddleworth is on
:45:17. > :45:20.the western side of the Pennines it becomes part of Greater Manchester,
:45:21. > :45:27.a curious future body bunch of country villages and not ond most of
:45:28. > :45:30.its inhabitants would vote for. He has the White Rose of Yorkshire
:45:31. > :45:33.which is very important to lany people and Saddleworth. The local
:45:34. > :45:36.Government Act of 1974 made the historic Yorkshire villages and
:45:37. > :45:45.towns of Saddleworth part of a new Greater Manchester. The ide` was to
:45:46. > :45:49.create larger than the effects of powers local labour and Saddleworth
:45:50. > :45:54.that caused an identity crisis. There was a lot of bad feelhng and
:45:55. > :46:02.people saying, they have taken us over. That is how many people felt.
:46:03. > :46:09.Many people think that is a justifiable position to havd taken.
:46:10. > :46:16.We feel old on gets the lions share of all the funding. The villagers
:46:17. > :46:20.have some common characteristics. The changes made by the Conservative
:46:21. > :46:27.government still leave some feeling a line has been crossed. Wh`t was
:46:28. > :46:30.lost was the heritage and hhstoric connections that went with the
:46:31. > :46:37.linkage to church and the of County Association. Ideally I
:46:38. > :46:41.would like to see a constittency based on the South Pennines, alias
:46:42. > :46:44.of similarity to Saddleworth. The Lancashire Yorkshire border is
:46:45. > :46:47.no stranger to territorial, political battles. During the War of
:46:48. > :46:56.the Roses, thousands lost their lives. Known as the winter of our
:46:57. > :47:01.discontent... The Local Govdrnment Act of 1974 Act was less bloody but
:47:02. > :47:02.local pride is still bruised. Over in Southport it's not horses but
:47:03. > :47:40.trains causing concern. rail to the north and east. What is
:47:41. > :47:45.important is four`hour tone to flourish and for unemployment to
:47:46. > :47:47.good, we have to have better communications, and the impddiment
:47:48. > :47:49.of the boundary. In 1986 thd mainly Labour`controlled councils of
:47:50. > :47:58.Greater Manchester and Greater Merseyside were abolished under
:47:59. > :48:01.Margret Thatcher. In 2011 the Greater Manchester Combined
:48:02. > :48:03.Authority came into effect `nd from the 1st of April a super cotncil
:48:04. > :48:08.consisting of Halton, Knowsley, Liverpool, St Helens Sefton and
:48:09. > :48:10.Wirral will be formed in Merseyside to boost economic growth. Btt are
:48:11. > :48:18.combined authorities working for a greater good? The opportunity that
:48:19. > :48:21.the combined authority gave this is for local authorities to cole
:48:22. > :48:26.together to create a structtre in which they can collaborate hn terms
:48:27. > :48:33.of economic development and planning. I would also like to
:48:34. > :48:36.accept some powers from nathonal governments. And here's an dxample
:48:37. > :48:39.of bigger is better. The Grdater Manchester Waste Authority recycles
:48:40. > :48:45.waste from nine boroughs, 40 years on from the creation of the North
:48:46. > :48:51.West's Metropolitan County Councils. It deals with over 1 million tonnes
:48:52. > :48:56.of rubbish. You get benefits of economies of scale so we ard able to
:48:57. > :49:02.deal with things on a one off basis and everyone else can use that. We
:49:03. > :49:10.believe we have the most sustainable scheme anywhere in Europe. 40 years
:49:11. > :49:13.on from the creation of the north`west metropolitan county
:49:14. > :49:18.councils, it is back to the future in the latest attempt to give local
:49:19. > :49:21.government more authority. And we're also joined now bx Ron
:49:22. > :49:29.Round, the leader of Knowsldy Council, one of the six that makes
:49:30. > :49:34.up Merseyside's Combined Authority. Would Southport be better off as
:49:35. > :49:36.part of Lincolnshire? It has economic and transport links with
:49:37. > :49:43.both the Merseyside area, so we `re on
:49:44. > :49:51.the edge and not well served by the current boundaries. We look to the
:49:52. > :49:56.east and see East Lancs and we cannot understand why they `re not
:49:57. > :50:00.part of the picture, left ott of the region, because what happens there
:50:01. > :50:08.in the way all railways and roads is very important to Southport. It
:50:09. > :50:14.benefits them to join you r`ther than you joining them? We h`ve no
:50:15. > :50:19.desire to be a district inshde Lancashire. We like the degree of
:50:20. > :50:25.autonomy we currently have, limited as it is in Sefton, and we do not
:50:26. > :50:28.want to end up a district council. We want a coherent boundary and we
:50:29. > :50:35.have not got that at the molent When you were reading though leading
:50:36. > :50:41.the council, did you think `bout boundaries and places just outside
:50:42. > :50:43.it? There are always issues with boundaries and Southport usdd to
:50:44. > :50:48.approach Lancashire and say they wanted to join the county council.
:50:49. > :50:59.Would they have been better off if they had? That is something for them
:51:00. > :51:06.to decide. Is your view... @re you happy with the boundaries as they
:51:07. > :51:13.are now in general, the fact you have a one tier system in
:51:14. > :51:17.Merseyside? Setting up the combined authority is a very good development
:51:18. > :51:19.and recognising the need for more regional involvement in cre`ting
:51:20. > :51:28.more jobs and developing tr`nsport systems, and it is the Liverpool
:51:29. > :51:34.city region, 35,000 people from within the city travel on to
:51:35. > :51:43.Liverpool, so I think it will help everybody in that area to gdt more
:51:44. > :51:46.jobs. The combined authoritx is certainly not the old countx council
:51:47. > :51:55.but do you think it is a stdp back towards it? I do not and nothing
:51:56. > :52:04.could be further from the truth The old county council had a different
:52:05. > :52:08.set of executive powers. We will be operating as a combined authority in
:52:09. > :52:16.a very different way to the old county council. I really want to
:52:17. > :52:19.firmly nailed that to the m`st. It is about the council is abott the
:52:20. > :52:24.councils working more stratdgically together and making joint ddcisions
:52:25. > :52:30.better? That is absolutely true and we will do that but we will not be
:52:31. > :52:35.saying we are some super cotncil or a county council mark two, ht is
:52:36. > :52:43.nothing further from the trtth. This is a totally new concept and all the
:52:44. > :52:47.leaders of the six districts that make up the Liverpool city region
:52:48. > :52:53.have worked tirelessly to achieve this. What are the advantagds of it
:52:54. > :53:03.because at the moment your councils want to cooperate can if thdy wish.
:53:04. > :53:09.We can cooperate but not on a very strategic level because the
:53:10. > :53:12.districts will still have the alone autonomy to deal with things inside
:53:13. > :53:19.their own districts, but wh`t we need to do is focus on things that
:53:20. > :53:25.benefit the Liverpool city region from a strategic point of vhew. Can
:53:26. > :53:30.I take you back, if we had had a combined authority when the
:53:31. > :53:42.ill`fated mirrors a tram was on the agenda, which I fully supported ``
:53:43. > :53:49.Mersey tram. I worked my fingers to the board to try to achieve it, had
:53:50. > :53:54.we had a combined authority, that Mersey tram would have been
:53:55. > :54:02.successfully achieved because the six districts would have supported
:54:03. > :54:05.it. Maybe you will be able to get that in place but let me ask you
:54:06. > :54:08.something else. Councillor Round, the first job when you meet on
:54:09. > :54:14.Tuesday is presumably going to involve the name? Let's havd
:54:15. > :54:20.Helens, Sefton and Wirral combined authority.
:54:21. > :54:26.That's hardly snappy, is it? I am getting sick and tired of hdaring
:54:27. > :54:30.that comment. That was the Secretary of State who came up with that idea,
:54:31. > :54:38.not the six districts who m`ke up the city region. The Liverpool city
:54:39. > :54:42.region are firmly behind and unanimous that it will be c`lled the
:54:43. > :54:49.Liverpool city region combined authority. I have to say th`t in a
:54:50. > :54:54.very strong way because it has been reported daily in the Liverpool Echo
:54:55. > :55:03.from professors of Liverpool University and other people that it
:55:04. > :55:09.is this tongue twister that everybody is talking about. You can
:55:10. > :55:13.take it from me, it will be called the Liverpool city region combined
:55:14. > :55:23.authority. And who will be running it? That will be decided by
:55:24. > :55:34.democratic process on Tuesd`y morning. That'll be the first item
:55:35. > :55:38.the agenda, after the chief executive goes through some
:55:39. > :55:48.housekeeping operations. Th`nk you very much indeed.
:55:49. > :55:51.What do you think? Liverpool should be chairing it, that is the brand
:55:52. > :55:54.name and they have all agredd the Liverpool city region as a name that
:55:55. > :55:59.will be understood outside of the country. That is part of wh`t this
:56:00. > :56:05.is about and it makes it much clearer. The city region will work
:56:06. > :56:11.together and all are fully committed to this and that is the right way to
:56:12. > :56:19.proceed now. Do you agree. The Manchester authority is led by
:56:20. > :56:23.Wigan. It is ironic that thhs combined authority is supposed to
:56:24. > :56:31.take powers from central government and is now left alone to choose its
:56:32. > :56:33.own name! Is not a good start. The Manchester example is that they have
:56:34. > :56:39.all rallied round and understood Manchester is the brand. Manchester
:56:40. > :56:42.has shown what can be done `nd the great developments they havd had in
:56:43. > :56:51.transport and business are not much to do with the authorities working
:56:52. > :56:55.together. They have also recognised the necessity the centre dods not
:56:56. > :56:58.dominate everything so Manchester does not throw its weight around. I
:56:59. > :57:01.agree with that and they have to work together.
:57:02. > :57:08.At least we have sorted the name out. Here's Ian Haslam with 60
:57:09. > :57:12.Seconds. Conservative MP Mark Menzies has
:57:13. > :57:22.resigned as a ministerial ahde He says the man paid him for sex and
:57:23. > :57:24.asked him to buy an illegal drug and he says a number of the alldgations
:57:25. > :57:27.are not true. The Halton MP Derek Twigg told
:57:28. > :57:30.Parliament that some police officers on duty during the Hillsborough
:57:31. > :57:32.disaster weren't co`operating with an IPCC investigation. The Prime
:57:33. > :57:36.Minister said police chiefs have been told to make sure they do.
:57:37. > :57:38.The cost of policing the anti`fracking protests at B`rton
:57:39. > :57:41.Moss reached more than ?1.5 million. The Police and Crime Commissioner
:57:42. > :57:44.Tony Lloyd has asked the Government for help to pay.
:57:45. > :57:46.Cumbria's Police and Crime Commissioner described the prison
:57:47. > :57:56.system as 'broken'. Richard Rhodes reckons huge reforms are nedded to
:57:57. > :57:59.prevent a cycle of re`offending We all know that the vast majority of
:58:00. > :58:02.people coming out of prison reoffend again. Meanwhile Cumbrian councils
:58:03. > :58:10.and businesses are looking hnto the electrification of the Furndss
:58:11. > :58:17.railway line. Very significant on Monday with the
:58:18. > :58:21.new Hillsborough developments. The inquest is about to start, `
:58:22. > :58:24.significant development, but we are still a long way from establishing
:58:25. > :58:32.the truth of what happened on that day. You have confidence thdy will
:58:33. > :58:37.come to the truth? I have confidence the truth will be exposed. People
:58:38. > :58:40.are very determined to do that and the campaigners have brought us to
:58:41. > :58:49.this point and now the judiciary and police are ready to find thd truth,
:58:50. > :58:53.and they will do it. What are your hopes? Fresh evidence has come
:58:54. > :58:57.forward which has enlightendd everyone and the country as a whole,
:58:58. > :59:01.but they are still police pocket books which have not been h`nded
:59:02. > :59:10.over. We will never get absolutely to the bottom of this. Unless they
:59:11. > :59:13.are handed in, still possible? I am sure people know where they are but
:59:14. > :59:19.some people may be unwilling to hand women. A big day for the falilies? A
:59:20. > :59:24.very big day and shows all the efforts are starting to show
:59:25. > :59:27.results. Still a long way to go but this is a significant development
:59:28. > :59:31.and was one of the major delands. Thank you very much indeed. We had
:59:32. > :59:35.you boundaries. Sorry, run out of time.
:59:36. > :59:43.Thanks very much indeed. Andrew back to you.
:59:44. > :59:53.Now let's get more from our political panel. If the BNP
:59:54. > :59:56.finished? They were never spectacularly successful to begin
:59:57. > :59:59.with but one of my childhood memories was a huge fuss in London
:00:00. > :00:03.about the fact that they won a few council seat on the Isle of dogs
:00:04. > :00:06.back in 1993. That was enough to cause a panic. As if they are
:00:07. > :00:10.falling from a great tit and I think the big difference with the National
:00:11. > :00:13.front in France is that they are building on decades of successful
:00:14. > :00:15.that they finished second in the presence of elections in 2002, I
:00:16. > :00:17.think. And, presence of elections in 2002, I
:00:18. > :00:23.were versions of presence of elections in 2002, I
:00:24. > :00:32.they are building on a lot whereas the BNP are working with incredibly
:00:33. > :00:35.few raw materials in this country. It is interesting that the BNP does
:00:36. > :00:42.seem to be in decline in terms of its membership and financially, but
:00:43. > :00:47.in France, the far right party, not as far right as the BNP, but pretty
:00:48. > :00:53.far right, will probably do well in the second round of the French local
:00:54. > :00:58.elections. You could say the same about Golden Dawn in Greece. Parties
:00:59. > :01:03.prosper when the picture is pre-rolled for them. If mainstream
:01:04. > :01:07.parties talk endlessly about immigration, saying you cannot get a
:01:08. > :01:09.council house because it has gone to an immigrant instead of saying it is
:01:10. > :01:13.because there are not enough council houses, that creates the conditions
:01:14. > :01:19.in which the far right can thrive. We are lucky that all the members of
:01:20. > :01:26.the BNP fell out with each other. As extreme members of the far right and
:01:27. > :01:31.left do. You can see that with the comedian in France, he has got a lot
:01:32. > :01:39.of support from people on the left as well. I asked Simon Derby was
:01:40. > :01:47.here victim of a pincer movement that UKIP were taken away voters and
:01:48. > :01:50.EDL has captured the Street protest. Yes, and
:01:51. > :01:59.EDL has captured the Street protest. act together. They got the act
:02:00. > :02:05.together in Dagenham. Margaret Hodge and Jon Cruddas did a very good job.
:02:06. > :02:09.I think UKIP would say, not a racist party but they are picking up votes
:02:10. > :02:12.from people who would once have voted BNP. But it is interesting the
:02:13. > :02:19.difference between Britain and France. Why is it that the Front
:02:20. > :02:27.Nationale came second in 2002 when they are not far right? I think they
:02:28. > :02:34.were on a five-year cycle because the next election was 2007. 200
:02:35. > :02:47.they came second when Jean-Marie Le Pen came second. They are not as far
:02:48. > :02:52.right as the BNP. Marine has put them -- cleaned them up a bit.
:02:53. > :02:56.Diplomatically there is a much harder vote which spreads further
:02:57. > :03:08.across the electorate in France than there is in this country. This is a
:03:09. > :03:15.much more tolerant country. If Marine Le Pen does well today, she
:03:16. > :03:18.will not win that many because the centre-right and centre-left will
:03:19. > :03:21.always gang up against terror in the second round, but it sets the tone
:03:22. > :03:27.for the European elections. second round, but it sets the tone
:03:28. > :03:31.and for the next French presidential election as well. I think what she's
:03:32. > :03:36.doing masterfully is combining a far right politics with what you might
:03:37. > :03:41.call a far left economic politics. She's not just picking up votes from
:03:42. > :03:46.xenophobes, she is picking up votes from who feel victimised from
:03:47. > :03:50.globalisation. They are people who would be voting for socialists but
:03:51. > :03:53.are put off by the current president. That is what I do not
:03:54. > :03:58.think the British far right parties have been able to do. You sort Simon
:03:59. > :04:03.Derby try to tell you that the BNP are not far right party. I think he
:04:04. > :04:06.was going to say if you look at issues of protectionism, standing up
:04:07. > :04:13.against globalisation, they are quite statist. That is where the
:04:14. > :04:17.phrase National Socialist comes from. That is why a little bit of
:04:18. > :04:22.electoral success is often a killer for far right parties. They get a
:04:23. > :04:25.few council seats and then they are rubbish. They are not getting
:04:26. > :04:29.people's bins collected so they become part of the system that
:04:30. > :04:35.people were voting against in the first place. Lets go on to the
:04:36. > :04:39.Labour Party. If you are a Labour Party supporter and you want to be
:04:40. > :04:44.cheered up, you pick up the Sunday Times where you see a poll where the
:04:45. > :04:48.leader is up to seven points. If you are Tory Lib Dem and you want to be
:04:49. > :04:51.cheered up, you pick up the Observer, the left-wing paper, where
:04:52. > :04:56.the Labour leader Observer, the left-wing paper, where
:04:57. > :05:00.have read in the paper that there is quite a lot of of the record
:05:01. > :05:06.briefings going on at the top of the Labour Party. Give us a sense of the
:05:07. > :05:13.mood. Clearly, they are unsettled. One pol looks OK but there has been
:05:14. > :05:20.a run of polls where there is a lead over the Tories which is closing.
:05:21. > :05:27.There are worrying number of people who are what are called the 35s and
:05:28. > :05:31.they are people who thought all the Labour Party needs to do is sit
:05:32. > :05:34.still because there are a number of Liberal Democrat voters who hate the
:05:35. > :05:39.coalition. Because the Conservatives did not get through the boundary
:05:40. > :05:43.changes they needed to win, we can sit tight and it will all be fine.
:05:44. > :05:50.What a few wise old heads are concerned about is they feel this
:05:51. > :05:54.has a feel of 1987 about it when the Labour Party was united. They had a
:05:55. > :05:59.very good leader. The leader was impressive, the party was united and
:06:00. > :06:04.then what happened? They met the British people and an election. The
:06:05. > :06:07.British people said, terribly sorry, you are not occupying the party
:06:08. > :06:13.political territory where we will vote for you. There are some people
:06:14. > :06:16.from the Blair era who say it feels a bit complacent and there may be a
:06:17. > :06:22.bit of a shock when they meet the voters. We talk about people being
:06:23. > :06:25.unsettled but Ed Miliband is not unsettled. His defining
:06:26. > :06:29.characteristic is you unsettled. His defining
:06:30. > :06:32.steadiness or you might call it a lack of agility. He could not
:06:33. > :06:36.respond to the pension stuff in the budget which was thrown at him. But
:06:37. > :06:40.he's very good at separating the signal from the noise. They may
:06:41. > :06:45.think this will all change in me. The Tories may be on the back foot
:06:46. > :06:49.after the European elections. He has the ability to set the political
:06:50. > :06:57.weather. He did it with the price freeze. There is no doubt that Mr
:06:58. > :07:00.Davey would not be referring these energy companies to the competition
:07:01. > :07:04.authorities if it had not been for that speech by the Labour leader.
:07:05. > :07:08.And we read today he has come up with another policy which will be
:07:09. > :07:13.attention grabbing to cut student tuition fees. It is easy to forget
:07:14. > :07:18.that before he announced the price freeze he was in as much vertical
:07:19. > :07:25.trouble as he is now. I think the Labour poll lead will expand up to
:07:26. > :07:31.five or 6% by the summer, assuming the Tories do badly. The question
:07:32. > :07:37.is, is five or 6% enough? Nick through the analogy with 1987. This
:07:38. > :07:41.reminds me of the Conservatives in 2009/10. You have a steadily sinking
:07:42. > :07:45.poll lead, differences in what campaign they should be running and
:07:46. > :07:50.personal animosity behind the scenes. It led to them throwing away
:07:51. > :07:54.an election which seemed to be winnable. There is an important
:07:55. > :08:04.difference with the 1980s winnable. There is an important
:08:05. > :08:07.or 88? They do not need to make up their mind until next year. What
:08:08. > :08:11.they are telling the pollsters now, we do not like this government
:08:12. > :08:15.because of course, you do not like the government. But next January or
:08:16. > :08:19.February they will be making up their minds. Is there a lot of
:08:20. > :08:25.animosity among the leading Labour figures behind-the-scenes? It must
:08:26. > :08:29.be personal or tactical because there are not big ideological
:08:30. > :08:35.differences between them, is there? Yes and no. What is striking is how
:08:36. > :08:40.little support Miliband gets from the shadow cabinet. He does not have
:08:41. > :08:45.outriders. That has been a continuous theme. Said he feels he
:08:46. > :08:50.is on his own? That they feel they do not get support from him. There
:08:51. > :08:56.was a column by Jenni Russell saying he is distant and detached. And
:08:57. > :09:04.Andrew Walmsley touched on this in the Observer. One of the divisions
:09:05. > :09:08.is Ed versus Ed. There is a terrible structural problem between those
:09:09. > :09:12.two. It is a real problem. Ed Miliband believes Ed Balls has not
:09:13. > :09:17.done enough to get economic red ability. Ed Balls believes Ed
:09:18. > :09:22.Miliband is making airy fairy speeches and it will not cut with
:09:23. > :09:26.the electorate. Neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miller band took part in the
:09:27. > :09:28.debate which happened earlier this week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.
:09:29. > :09:34.We have week between the Lib Dems and UKIP.
:09:35. > :09:39.the BBC on Wednesday night. Let s remind ourselves of what happened in
:09:40. > :09:47.last week's debate. I will ask Nick to open the batting.
:09:48. > :09:52.We are better off in Europe... Frankly not working any more. A
:09:53. > :09:59.referendum on Europe. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you can
:10:00. > :10:09.read the small print. Pull up the drawbridge, pool drawbridge up. . We
:10:10. > :10:15.have 485 million people... It is simply not true! Not true. Not true.
:10:16. > :10:23.Not true. Identical with Nick. I don't agree with Nick. Based on
:10:24. > :10:29.facts, facts, the facts, facts, the facts... Thank God we did not listen
:10:30. > :10:37.to you. The food is getting better here. Jobs, jobs, jobs, jobs. You
:10:38. > :10:44.have never had a proper job. Great not little England. Good night.
:10:45. > :10:48.I think it is seven o'clock BBC Two. Helen, what was the outcome of that
:10:49. > :10:54.and how do we mark our card for this week? It was not a great time for
:10:55. > :10:59.pundits. Everybody called the debate for Nick and then they said
:11:00. > :11:06.actually, we think it has gone the other way. Consensus emerged
:11:07. > :11:08.actually, we think it has gone the on that Nick Clegg made a difficult
:11:09. > :11:12.argument. I think the most important thing Nigel Farage said was he
:11:13. > :11:16.distinguished out the immigration policy by saying we're not just
:11:17. > :11:20.closing day over, we want people to come, we just do not want mass EU
:11:21. > :11:25.immigration. That is an important thing for him to say to get away
:11:26. > :11:30.from the echoes of the far right. I suspect Nick Clegg will not ask us
:11:31. > :11:36.to read the small print. That was 11 turn he took. It compounded his
:11:37. > :11:40.reputation for being sneaky. I slightly disagree about the pundits.
:11:41. > :11:46.I say this as someone who thought far it would win. -- Nigel Farage
:11:47. > :11:50.would win. The fact that the public disagree with you and the public
:11:51. > :11:58.favoured Nigel Farage does not mean the public were wrong. The question
:11:59. > :12:05.is, who is going to tune in for the second one? What is the answer to
:12:06. > :12:11.that? Phil Collins argument is a man who is on 8% is fantastic. It is a
:12:12. > :12:15.binary choice in this debate. Clearly they need to brush up on
:12:16. > :12:18.opposite areas. Nigel Farage needs to brush up on facts and Nick Clegg
:12:19. > :12:23.needs to brush up on the motions because he did not connect very
:12:24. > :12:29.well. Where Nick Clegg may go after Nigel Farage is when the -- when he
:12:30. > :12:30.said the EU has blood on its hands with Ukraine. He then came back to
:12:31. > :12:36.talk with Ukraine. He then came back to
:12:37. > :12:42.made what was going on in Syria worse. It is one thing to say I do
:12:43. > :12:45.not think the UK should be part of the joint European foreign policy,
:12:46. > :12:49.it is part of another thing to say that Europe which will act with or
:12:50. > :12:52.without the UK is responsible for blood on the streets of Kiev and
:12:53. > :12:58.also responsible for exacerbating the Civil War in Syria. Maybe an
:12:59. > :13:05.hour is too long for Nigel Farage's shtick? That may be the case but
:13:06. > :13:09.Nick Clegg has precedence. He does that show and he has had to deal
:13:10. > :13:14.with the worst thing with dealing with what is thrown at him so he has
:13:15. > :13:18.honed his view consistently. We will see what happens in part two.
:13:19. > :13:21.That's all for this week. The Daily Politics is on BBC Two at lunchtime
:13:22. > :13:25.every day this week. I'll be here next week at the usual time of 1
:13:26. > :13:33.o'clock. Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.