:00:33. > :00:37.Aternoon folks, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. As MPs head off for
:00:38. > :00:42.their Easter break, campaigning for the European elections in six weeks'
:00:43. > :00:46.time gets underway. In a Sunday Politics special, we'll debate the
:00:47. > :00:47.issues at stake on May 22nd with senior party figures from the
:00:48. > :00:58.Conservatives, Labour, Liberal Democrats, and UKIP. And as ever
:00:59. > :00:59.we'll be discussing the week ahead with our panel of top political
:01:00. > :01:13.commentators. And in the North West: We'rd live in
:01:14. > :01:14.the Ribble Valley as Nigel Dvans tries to put his career back on
:01:15. > :01:18.track. newspapers which some claim are
:01:19. > :01:23.politically slanted and not impartial about informing people of
:01:24. > :01:27.local services. So all that to come between now and
:01:28. > :01:30.quarter to four and for the next thirty minutes or so we'll be
:01:31. > :01:33.debating the European elections Here in the studio we have Syed
:01:34. > :01:35.Kamall, leader of the Conservatives in the European Parliament, Richard
:01:36. > :01:38.Howitt, chair of the Labour group of MEPs, Sarah Ludford, deputy leader
:01:39. > :01:48.of the Lib Dems in Europe, and Patrick O'Flynn, UKIP's director of
:01:49. > :01:52.communications. Welcome to you all. In a moment, all four will give us
:01:53. > :02:01.their opening pitch for the elections. A little earlier they
:02:02. > :02:04.drew lots to decide who'll go first. And that privilege goes to Syed
:02:05. > :02:09.Before that, though, here's a quick reminder of what all the fuss is
:02:10. > :02:13.about. The vote to choose members of the
:02:14. > :02:18.European Parliament takes place on Thursday the 22nd of May. The same
:02:19. > :02:20.day as local elections are held in England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:21. > :02:24.sends 73 England and Northern Ireland. The UK
:02:25. > :02:28.sends NTP is to Brussels. And the vote is a form of proportional
:02:29. > :02:36.representation. In total, there are 751 MEPs from the 28 member states.
:02:37. > :02:40.What do they do all day? The European Parliament's power has
:02:41. > :02:44.grown. A vet of the EU commissioners and they can amend, approve or
:02:45. > :02:50.reject nearly all EU legislation and the EU budget. Some laws MEPs have
:02:51. > :02:57.been responsible for include price caps on mobile phone chargers,
:02:58. > :03:03.banking regulation and cover food regulation two -- labelling.
:03:04. > :03:08.Syed Kamall, you have 30 seconds. Europe cannot go on as it is. Europe
:03:09. > :03:12.needs to change. And our relationship with Europe needs to
:03:13. > :03:15.change. Only the Conservatives have a plan to deliver that change and of
:03:16. > :03:20.the British people and in-out referendum. Labour and the Lib Dems
:03:21. > :03:26.will not and UKIP simply cannot Only the Conservatives will offer
:03:27. > :03:30.the three yards, with Conservative MEPs working alongside a
:03:31. > :03:36.conservative Prime Minister. For, really is and above all a
:03:37. > :03:41.referendum. Sarah Ludford is next. Your choice is simple. If you think
:03:42. > :03:45.Britain is better off in Europe vote for the Liberal Democrats. The
:03:46. > :03:49.Lib Dems are the only party of Ian, fighting to keep Britain in Europe
:03:50. > :03:53.and in work. There is nothing patriotic about UKIP's desire to
:03:54. > :03:57.pull-out. That is playing Russian roulette with Britain's economy and
:03:58. > :04:02.jobs. The Conservatives are flirting with exit and Labour lacks the
:04:03. > :04:08.courage to speak up. Thought Liberal Democrat on May the 22nd to say in
:04:09. > :04:14.Europe for jobs and security. Sarah Ludford. Next, Richard Howitt from
:04:15. > :04:18.Labour. The European elections are about who represents you. They are
:04:19. > :04:23.not a referendum on a referendum. Labour MEPs believe in putting jobs
:04:24. > :04:26.and growth first. A guarantee to help young people into work,
:04:27. > :04:30.reforming energy markets so that bills are brought down for good
:04:31. > :04:36.Labour believes in reform in Europe, but within. It is David Cameron who
:04:37. > :04:40.is risking your job and Britain s prosperity because of divisions in
:04:41. > :04:45.his own party. Labour MEPs put British interests first. Our fourth
:04:46. > :04:53.opening statement from Patrick O'Flynn. The EU is old hat. It is a
:04:54. > :04:55.declining regional trade bloc in an era of global trade. It is a
:04:56. > :05:01.20th-century political project designed to prevent conflict in
:05:02. > :05:05.Europe that is now reawakening old hostilities. It is an attempt to
:05:06. > :05:13.force on the European people European this as their primary
:05:14. > :05:16.collective identity. It has hollowed out British democracy and now we do
:05:17. > :05:22.not even control our own borders. That is why you should vote UKIP.
:05:23. > :05:25.That is the opening statements. Let's get on with the debate. Why
:05:26. > :05:31.should people vote in the selections? If you vote UKIP, we can
:05:32. > :05:35.deliver an earthquake that will rock the foundations of British politics
:05:36. > :05:40.and the European political class. We can send a signal to Europe that
:05:41. > :05:46.Britain has had enough, that Britain wants to retain its nation state
:05:47. > :05:50.status and regain political power and the ability to forge trading
:05:51. > :05:56.deals across the world. Britain leading Europe to freedom twice in
:05:57. > :05:59.the last century through bloodshed. We feel that a UKIP win in those
:06:00. > :06:06.elections could help Britain set an example to lead European nation
:06:07. > :06:10.states back to free assembly again. Syed Kamall, isn't it the case that
:06:11. > :06:16.many Tory voters will vote you clip to keep you honest, to keep your
:06:17. > :06:18.feet to the fire? Whatever you think of the European Parliament or the
:06:19. > :06:24.EU, the fact is that the European Parliament as equal power with the
:06:25. > :06:29.28 governments of the EU. When David Cameron delivered the first cut to
:06:30. > :06:32.the EU budget, the first ever cut, he needed a strong team of
:06:33. > :06:39.Conservative MEPs working alongside him. But many of your supporters
:06:40. > :06:48.will vote for UKIP for the reasons I gave. Many will vote Liberal
:06:49. > :06:51.Democrat. Not very many. Many of our supporters will vote for us because
:06:52. > :06:54.we are the only party trying to change the EU and offer reform. We
:06:55. > :07:00.have offered renegotiation and a referendum. And how would you vote
:07:01. > :07:05.in such a referendum? We have no idea whether he would vote yes or
:07:06. > :07:12.no. Let him answer. I will answer that question. If the EU continues
:07:13. > :07:15.on this road, towards a United States of Europe, and if there was
:07:16. > :07:20.no change at the time of the referendum, then I would probably
:07:21. > :07:24.vote to leave. You have no confidence in David Cameron? We
:07:25. > :07:26.Javier Culson opportunity to read negotiate our relationship with
:07:27. > :07:30.Europe and the Conservatives are at the forefront of that agenda. David
:07:31. > :07:38.Cameron have not given a list of demands. He said that if things do
:07:39. > :07:43.not change, he will probably vote to leave, is that right? If at the time
:07:44. > :07:46.of the referendum, things had not changed, I would vote to leave and
:07:47. > :07:53.we have a golden opportunity to perform the agenda. Richard, the
:07:54. > :08:01.last time the British people had a say on this was over 40 years ago.
:08:02. > :08:07.Under a Labour government. Which was deeply divided on the issue. And
:08:08. > :08:12.that was a say on the common market. Today's EU is a very different
:08:13. > :08:17.animal from the common market. Why can we not, under another Labour
:08:18. > :08:23.government, have another vote? First of all, we want it to be more than a
:08:24. > :08:27.free trading area. We make no apologies about that. But in the
:08:28. > :08:31.elections because this is half of Britain's exports and investment. If
:08:32. > :08:34.you care about your job and business, you cannot hear from the
:08:35. > :08:39.party of government that they probably want you to leave because
:08:40. > :08:42.the CBI, the engineering employees in Federation and the chimp of
:08:43. > :08:48.commerce, 80% of them say it is necessary to stay in. So why not
:08:49. > :08:52.give us a vote? When David Cameron says he wants to repatriate social
:08:53. > :08:58.powers, he means takeaway maternity rights and holidays. If the case is
:08:59. > :09:04.so strong, why not give us an in-out vote? David Miliband has said that
:09:05. > :09:09.there will be a referendum if there was a proposal to change powers Why
:09:10. > :09:13.wait? This is based on a series of reforms. Labour has a set of
:09:14. > :09:17.reforms. David Cameron is silent about what they would be. That is
:09:18. > :09:21.because he knows that if he put them forward, they would either be
:09:22. > :09:25.unsatisfactory to his Eurosceptic backbenchers and he would be out of
:09:26. > :09:31.a job, or they would be unacceptable to European leaders. Why is your
:09:32. > :09:35.leader missing in action? Ed Miliband is unable to say even the
:09:36. > :09:42.positive things that you are saying. He has run away from the argument.
:09:43. > :09:47.He actually said there would not be a referendum in his time.
:09:48. > :09:55.For a conservative to say they will have a referendum but not give the
:09:56. > :10:01.reforms, it is a mistake. Nick Clegg gave Nigel Farage a huge opportunity
:10:02. > :10:04.in that debate. He said that the Eurosceptic view was to leave
:10:05. > :10:10.Britain like Billy no mates. I can say that he is the best qualified
:10:11. > :10:14.person to say that. Sarah Ludford, you have said that lots of people
:10:15. > :10:18.are going to vote Lib Dem but that is not what the polls are saying.
:10:19. > :10:22.You are 7% in two polls this morning. Eclectic's decision to
:10:23. > :10:27.champion Europe has been a disaster for you. You face wet out. We swayed
:10:28. > :10:32.a lot of people our way with Nick Clegg's debate. Where is the
:10:33. > :10:38.evidence? We are the only party that is completely united, saying that we
:10:39. > :10:41.are wanting to stay in. It is essential because formally and jobs
:10:42. > :10:46.are supported by our trade with the EU. Linked to the EU. We are finding
:10:47. > :10:50.a lot of moderate conservative voters are actually fed up with the
:10:51. > :10:59.Tories being split and divided all over the place. Syed Kamall saying
:11:00. > :11:03.that we might vote in rout. -- in or out. We are consistent. A poll in
:11:04. > :11:08.London showed that 18% would vote for us. I am delighted about that.
:11:09. > :11:14.London is not the whole country it may surprise you. We need to move on
:11:15. > :11:17.to immigration, an important issue. We are a member of the EU and the
:11:18. > :11:23.rules say that with a few caveats, our fellow EU citizens are free to
:11:24. > :11:28.come here if they want. Why can we not just accept that? Britain has a
:11:29. > :11:31.proud record when it comes to immigration. We have been open to
:11:32. > :11:35.people across the world for centuries. But we welcome people who
:11:36. > :11:40.come to our country to contribute to pay taxes and two wards are a
:11:41. > :11:44.society positively. But there are three real concerns that we have to
:11:45. > :11:48.address. The first one is numbers, and secondly people who may come
:11:49. > :11:53.here not to work but for benefits, and thirdly, getting a hang of the
:11:54. > :11:56.numbers. I think it is shameful that only this week the office for
:11:57. > :12:01.National said that they did not collect sufficient figures under a
:12:02. > :12:05.Labour government. 350,000 extra people came in and they did not
:12:06. > :12:11.count the numbers. That is the size of a city like Cardiff. That is
:12:12. > :12:16.shameful. 350,000 came from all over the place. Do you accept the free
:12:17. > :12:20.movement of peoples within the EU? I accept and am open to people who
:12:21. > :12:26.want to come here and contribute. In the same way... Do you accept the
:12:27. > :12:32.free movement of peoples within the EU? In our manifesto, we have said
:12:33. > :12:36.it is an issue for reform. We have to make sure that people are coming
:12:37. > :12:43.here to work and contribute positively, not simply to come here
:12:44. > :12:47.and take advantage of the system. I will tell you what else is
:12:48. > :12:50.shameful. What is shameful is David Cameron making a pledge to the
:12:51. > :12:54.British people on an issue that they really care about, to bring net
:12:55. > :12:58.immigration down to the tens of thousands a year, having no means of
:12:59. > :13:03.fulfilling that pledge. And we see now it is back up to 212,000 a year
:13:04. > :13:08.because we have no volume control and no quality control from
:13:09. > :13:11.immigration from our neighbours And that is a disgrace. How could UKIP
:13:12. > :13:17.address that issue? Because we would leave the EU. How? Tell me how. You
:13:18. > :13:21.do not have a single member of Parliament. He will not get a single
:13:22. > :13:30.member of Parliament. How are you... ? TUC are hoping to get an
:13:31. > :13:41.MEP. What do you say? -- he is here today hoping to get an MEP. All of
:13:42. > :13:47.-- almost 2 million Brits live and work in the rest of the EU. Is that
:13:48. > :13:54.worth having? The majority are wealthy, retired people. Why do not
:13:55. > :13:56.object to bilateral agreements with countries with similar living
:13:57. > :14:01.standards to us. France, the Netherlands, that works fine. But
:14:02. > :14:04.these three people want Turkey to join the EU, 75 Na Li and people
:14:05. > :14:18.running our country, only 10% of which... Syed Kamall is Michael year
:14:19. > :14:21.to say whether they are in favour of free movement for work, not for
:14:22. > :14:30.benefits... That is what I'm saying. You said you were unable to
:14:31. > :14:32.be clear. That leaves 2 million British people absolutely unsure as
:14:33. > :14:36.to whether they would have a right to continue to live in other
:14:37. > :14:40.countries. It is a two-way street. You are putting those people in a
:14:41. > :14:43.state of uncertainty. EU migrants have been good for the British
:14:44. > :14:46.economy and contribute far more than they take out in services and
:14:47. > :14:54.benefits. One in seven businesses were founded in -- by migrants. And
:14:55. > :15:00.they cannot just turn up and claim benefits. The coalition government
:15:01. > :15:04.has legislated to make sure that they cannot claim for three months.
:15:05. > :15:12.They will not be able to claim for more than six months. Richard
:15:13. > :15:19.Howitt, Jack Straw said it was A spectacular mistake for Labour to
:15:20. > :15:24.allow EU migrants from Poland and Hungary to work in the UK from
:15:25. > :15:29.2004." Why should we trust a party that makes spectacular mistakes and
:15:30. > :15:34.hasn't apologised for it? We accept it is a mistake and I apologise We
:15:35. > :15:38.make a firm commitment for new EU states we will put down transitional
:15:39. > :15:41.controls. When I listen to the Conservatives and UKIP trying to
:15:42. > :15:45.re-write history, saying immigration was out of control, uncontrolled,
:15:46. > :15:51.open door, we hear it over and over again. It is not true. Anyone who
:15:52. > :15:57.was around at the time... Come on, Richard. Hold on, you undercounted
:15:58. > :16:02.by 350,000. You were letting 2 million in over the years, an
:16:03. > :16:08.under-counted by 350,000 people you didn't know came in. You should have
:16:09. > :16:14.tightened the benefit rules. The Conservative MEP today has, in four
:16:15. > :16:19.years in government in Britain, is trying it blame the previous Labour
:16:20. > :16:24.Government over the fact they won't count people in or people out.
:16:25. > :16:31.Yvette Cooper - it is not easy for people to come to the country and
:16:32. > :16:36.benefits are changing, changing the habitual residence test and we are
:16:37. > :16:39.going to say that migrants can't come and claim child benefit if
:16:40. > :16:42.their children are outside the country. Labour a has shown they
:16:43. > :16:48.have listened to concerns but we say it is a stronger, better, country
:16:49. > :16:51.because it is diverse and multicultural snoo.d this is fantasy
:16:52. > :16:55.politics from all the Peters. They are committed to a system with no
:16:56. > :16:59.volume control and no quality control. You talk about benefits as
:17:00. > :17:04.if it is only out of work benefits. In work benefits cost a lot of money
:17:05. > :17:13.for the British taxpayer. Big businesses bring in minimum wage
:17:14. > :17:18.workers. It is ?5,000 per perschool place What are you going to do? Have
:17:19. > :17:24.all the pensioners come back to Britain? How will will you fund the
:17:25. > :17:28.health care? Do you really think Spain and pour tu ghal their current
:17:29. > :17:33.situation, are going to turn their backs on British property owners
:17:34. > :17:39.with wealth? -- Portugal. They might not wanting pensioners to use their
:17:40. > :17:45.health service. Pensioners often come back to Britain to use the
:17:46. > :17:48.health service. You have shown it represents wealthy people's
:17:49. > :17:53.interests. A second Conservative Party. Hang on a minute... Blue
:17:54. > :17:57.collar wages were down. They want it character for the National Health
:17:58. > :18:01.Service, have cuts that go farther and comprehensive education. This is
:18:02. > :18:04.a debate on the wider politics between Conservatives and UKIP and
:18:05. > :18:10.Labour will... You can't both talk time. UKIP - they haven't thought it
:18:11. > :18:14.through, thousand they will have trade access in the EU, hasn't
:18:15. > :18:16.thought how they will have trade deals that the Liberal Democrats
:18:17. > :18:21.support, like with the United States: Would you have a cap on
:18:22. > :18:26.non-EU immigrants? We are not in favour of a cap. No cap on either.
:18:27. > :18:31.No. Well it is a target. It is a moving feast, as it were. Would you
:18:32. > :18:34.have a limit on non-EU limits? We have limits on quality. We have
:18:35. > :18:39.people who are skilled migrants coming in. Lip its? . By quality,
:18:40. > :18:47.not by quantity. -- Limits. How do you do that? We need to move
:18:48. > :18:51.on to foreign affairs. Should we pool more sovereignty to
:18:52. > :18:56.give the European Union more clout in foreign and defence matters? I'm
:18:57. > :19:00.Labour's defence and foreign affairs spokesperson. No we don't need to
:19:01. > :19:04.pull more powers into Europe. As we undertake this live debate there are
:19:05. > :19:10.guns being fired in Ukraine as we speak. Europe is facing, for the
:19:11. > :19:14.first time, since the end of the Second World War, Armies crossing
:19:15. > :19:18.national borders and floatening peace. Doesn't it -- threatening
:19:19. > :19:23.peace. Doesn't it need to come together of the We don't need more
:19:24. > :19:30.powers. We need political will. With Vladimir Putin, in my view, he has
:19:31. > :19:34.-- we have fallen short in the sanctions. But it is Europe, not
:19:35. > :19:38.Britain. Remember Putin calling Britain little England a small
:19:39. > :19:42.island with no influence. Labour doesn't agree with that. But if
:19:43. > :19:45.that's the mindset that allows someone like Vladimir Putin to send
:19:46. > :19:50.troops across borders threatening peace, it is worrying. And when we
:19:51. > :19:54.have, in UKIP a party that say they admire Putin and support his
:19:55. > :19:59.policies, that is no recipe for how Europe should be wrong. I was
:20:00. > :20:06.waiting for that. Let me ask him. We don't admire Putin as a leader. .
:20:07. > :20:10.Oh. No we don't. What Nigel Farage said, was he admired him as a
:20:11. > :20:15.political operator. Testifies Franklin D Roosevelt who said a good
:20:16. > :20:21.foreign policy was speaking softly but carrying a big stick. The EU
:20:22. > :20:25.shouts its mouthed off while carrying a matchstick. It is fantasy
:20:26. > :20:29.that you wiebl it stand up to Putin over the Ukraine. -- that you would
:20:30. > :20:33.be able to stand up. Do you admire what Putin is doing in the Ukraine?
:20:34. > :20:38.No. What matters in foreign policy is the outcould. We have a terrible
:20:39. > :20:43.outcome in the Ukraine, like Syria, and Georgia... What would UKIP do?
:20:44. > :20:49.What u skip would do, would be to keep our people safe -- UKIP.
:20:50. > :20:55.How? And not commit our Foreign Office and troops Foreign wars.
:20:56. > :21:00.Patrick O'Flynn. You brought up this issue of foreign wars. Now Nigel
:21:01. > :21:04.Farage said in previous debates that Britain should leave the EU because,
:21:05. > :21:10."We have had enough of endless foreign wars." Which wars has the EU
:21:11. > :21:14.taken us into? The EU has ban very important factor in the push towards
:21:15. > :21:23.trying to get military intervention in Syria, for example. What wars has
:21:24. > :21:28.the etch U taken us into it -- EU. Fortunately the EU doesn't have its
:21:29. > :21:35.own army yet. It has wanted to sign up to an expansionist agenda. Did it
:21:36. > :21:40.want Iraq? No, that was Labour. UKIP opposed Iraq, so did most of the
:21:41. > :21:46.mainline Europeans. Germany was against Syria and Libya. No EU
:21:47. > :21:52.policy. We had an Anglo French deal on Syria. A by lateral deal. A
:21:53. > :21:57.European dimension. No, buy lateral. We have a European Union that wants
:21:58. > :22:02.to expand ever-more into other people's spheres of influence. If we
:22:03. > :22:07.are going to stand up to what Putin is do, which obviously Nigel Farage
:22:08. > :22:11.has no intentions of doing, you have to get your act together on economic
:22:12. > :22:15.sanctions and diplomatic force and in trade matters, in supporting
:22:16. > :22:21.eastern European countries. Sayeria, who and whose army? And NATO and
:22:22. > :22:26.working transatlanticically, is important through NATO. I will come
:22:27. > :22:32.to you in a moment. Nick Clegg said that the idea of an EU Army was "A
:22:33. > :22:37.dangerous fantasy that is simply not true ""Why then, are we already
:22:38. > :22:41.working on etch U-owned and controlled drones -- EU-owned and
:22:42. > :22:47.the President of the European Parliament has said that the
:22:48. > :22:50.majority of MEPs want the EU to have "deployable troops." He is not
:22:51. > :22:55.speaking for me or Liberal Democrats. The EU does not and will
:22:56. > :22:58.not have an army. Our defence is mainly shaped through NATO. He is
:22:59. > :23:02.President of the Parliament What we must do is to get equipment which
:23:03. > :23:06.can operate together. We waste an awful lot of our spending in Europe
:23:07. > :23:11.because we duplicate equipment. We don't get the bang for our bucks
:23:12. > :23:16.that we should. It is a useful role for the EU, to get equipment working
:23:17. > :23:21.together. That doesn't make sense. You say military equipment, a NATO
:23:22. > :23:26.job. No, the EU, there is a kind of dimension of the EU members of NATO,
:23:27. > :23:31.in working together on a common quument o o so they can talk to each
:23:32. > :23:36.other -- on common equipment, so they can talk to each other. The EU
:23:37. > :23:40.has a role but not an army. So a European defence agency, that helps
:23:41. > :23:43.our defence industries and those jobs are extremely important and
:23:44. > :23:48.would be threatened if the Conservatives and UKIP took us out
:23:49. > :23:52.of Europe but it is 100 years since the start of the fist world war
:23:53. > :23:56.Remember that Europe was set up to try to get a secure peace within
:23:57. > :24:00.Europe T succeeded. Now look on Ukraine but also on the southern
:24:01. > :24:05.borders to the Arab Spring countries in North Africa. It is more
:24:06. > :24:10.important than ever that we work to keep keep peace and stability on our
:24:11. > :24:14.borders. Can I say to Syed and the Conservative MEPs. You talk about
:24:15. > :24:18.the three Rs, I have a fourth, retreat. If you take us out of the
:24:19. > :24:25.European Union, it will be the worse retreat by Britain since Gallipoli.
:24:26. > :24:28.Let him answer If he wants answers -- the British Parliament is the
:24:29. > :24:32.right place with a British Foreign Secretary to decide our foreign
:24:33. > :24:37.policy. You say that, but can I quote David Cameron, this is germain
:24:38. > :24:43.to what you are saying, David Cameron said "There is no doubt that
:24:44. > :24:46.we are more powerful than Washington, Beijing and Delhi,
:24:47. > :24:49.because we are a powerful player in the European Union." Do you agree?
:24:50. > :24:53.He is saying that there are times when it comes to international
:24:54. > :24:57.foreign affairs when you have to cooperate with partners. Often they
:24:58. > :25:01.are EU partners but often they are not. The problem we have...
:25:02. > :25:08.Washington have made it very clear that it wants Britain to talk
:25:09. > :25:12.through Brussels. No, not at all. Talk through the French and
:25:13. > :25:17.Italians, come on, wake up? Through the EU collective. I'm vice chair of
:25:18. > :25:20.the EU delegation. I hear it from the American counterparts. They want
:25:21. > :25:26.the EU to get itself together and not least on Ukraine. Why should our
:25:27. > :25:29.sovereignty be at the behest of .. ? I want to hear from Syed calm
:25:30. > :25:33.amplgts the British Parliament is the right place to decide our
:25:34. > :25:37.foreign poll sinchts sometimes we work with our European partners
:25:38. > :25:41.sometimes we work with our non-European partners. It is our
:25:42. > :25:47.choice to pull sovereign trito work together. G, we move on to our foirt
:25:48. > :25:55.area. We hear a lot in this country about MPs expenses. Snted the real
:25:56. > :26:01.scan dalt MEPs gravy train. -- isn't the real scandal, the MEPs gravy
:26:02. > :26:07.train? You all have your snouts The trough? I don't think so. There is
:26:08. > :26:11.transpancy. The way we use our expenses is online and anyone can
:26:12. > :26:17.ask to examine those. We have actually voted to reform MEPs'
:26:18. > :26:20.allowances. We regularly vote but unfortunately the majority in
:26:21. > :26:26.Parliament don't. Have you voted to cut them? Yes. By how much? About
:26:27. > :26:30.5%. A 5% We hoped to have economies I never fly except across the
:26:31. > :26:38.Atlantic. Difficult to do it any other way. I didn't swim.
:26:39. > :26:43.But we voted for economy flutes We voted for European Parliament policy
:26:44. > :26:48.of transparency which other groups haven't. UKIP don't turn up to vote.
:26:49. > :26:53.They don't earn their salaries. Dhoent do anything. They should hand
:26:54. > :26:57.their salaries and allowances back. You can't ause UKIP of being on the
:26:58. > :27:03.gravy train and the other that we don't claim our attendance allowance
:27:04. > :27:06.because our MEPs are not there. Your attendance allowance is if you are
:27:07. > :27:10.there, you are saying we don't turn up You are in the building and claim
:27:11. > :27:14.the allowances. You are not an MEP, UKIP are so ashamed of what their
:27:15. > :27:19.MEPs have done in Brussels, they didn't field a sitting MEP for
:27:20. > :27:24.today's debate. I think each party decides who it wishes to field. I
:27:25. > :27:29.have the honour of being the UKIP representative. I would say by going
:27:30. > :27:36.in the past few weeks, xeeming to me saying - we are sick of the others.
:27:37. > :27:41.-- people saying to me. : We are quite excited. Can I ask Patrick
:27:42. > :27:46.O'Flynn. He says he touched a chord and his party is strong in the polls
:27:47. > :27:51.today, between 18% and 20%. Haven't you also struck a chord with hip
:27:52. > :27:56.crasscy. Two of your MEPs were jailed for expenses and benefits'
:27:57. > :28:01.fraud. Two more asked to pay back ?37,000 for using European funds.
:28:02. > :28:06.Nigel Farage has boosted about getting ?2 million in expenses and
:28:07. > :28:08.he went on to employ his wife as a secretarial allowance after telling
:28:09. > :28:15.other members not to People who do wrong and break the law, go to ja. I
:28:16. > :28:18.have no time. -- go to jail. People who spend money they are not
:28:19. > :28:24.entitled to should pay it back and that's right. But what UKIP does and
:28:25. > :28:28.the good UKIP MEPs do, is use the allowances they are given to pursue
:28:29. > :28:31.the political agenda they put up when elected which is to get Britain
:28:32. > :28:37.out of this superstate. Instead of using it for parliamentary work
:28:38. > :28:42.Very interesting. Richard Howitt. We were the first British political
:28:43. > :28:47.party to have independent audits of our MEPs' expenses, from 1990, way
:28:48. > :28:52.before the expenses crisis blew up. The Maria Miller scandal has of
:28:53. > :28:56.course hit David Cameron and the Conservative Party hard as it should
:28:57. > :29:00.do. But you are right, even in my own region you have UKIP candidates
:29:01. > :29:03.and councillors who have been charged with fraudulently filling
:29:04. > :29:09.out election papers and other shot lifting. Another independent inquiry
:29:10. > :29:12.found he made racist comments. We had a European candidate last week
:29:13. > :29:17.in Hertfordshire who got a parking ticket from the police and called
:29:18. > :29:23.the police fascists. These people aren't here.
:29:24. > :29:28.I'll let you have a quick reply We can bring up parochial cases. Let
:29:29. > :29:31.him answer. Not so long ago a Liberal Democrat councillor was sent
:29:32. > :29:37.down for firebombing, I don't say they are a bunch of arsonists, but
:29:38. > :29:44.now I think, Nick Clegg might have burnt some cactuses, once. I'm glad
:29:45. > :29:49.you pronounced that word carefully. Syed Kemal, the EU's auditors, they
:29:50. > :29:54.are strongly critical of the EU s financials saying "Errors permist in
:29:55. > :30:00.all main spending areas", the financials are poorly managed. It is
:30:01. > :30:06.a shambles And that's something that all parties agree on. As we agree on
:30:07. > :30:10.expenses, the British parties are at the forefront of transpancy. Every
:30:11. > :30:13.year when we vote for the discharge of the budget, the Conservatives
:30:14. > :30:17.also vote for it but we don't get enough MEPs from other countries to
:30:18. > :30:20.investigate in favour. The Liberal Democrats have put forward to make
:30:21. > :30:25.each Finance Minister, George Osborne and his counterpart to sign
:30:26. > :30:29.a declaration to say all EU money is properly spent in my country.
:30:30. > :30:34.Funnily enough they don't want to do that but I look forward to you
:30:35. > :30:39.confirming that George Osborne will sign it. All the time we hear it is
:30:40. > :30:44.about the money we pay in, about ?150 per family per year. What about
:30:45. > :30:49.the money that comes back? ?1. billion that comes to Britain's
:30:50. > :30:53.regions because of being in Europe. I myself helped to negotiate a fund
:30:54. > :30:58.to help Britain's food banks to ensure so. Poorest and most
:30:59. > :31:01.destitute people... Isn't it our money that went there first. Can I
:31:02. > :31:05.tell you the Conservative-led Government have blocked us from
:31:06. > :31:08.claiming that money. If you want to have the clearest choice at these
:31:09. > :31:18.European elections, it is between... Tell us why. It affects our rebate.
:31:19. > :31:26.Tony Blair gave away our rebate He is quite right. Lib Dems fought to
:31:27. > :31:30.make sure that we apply for money to help with flooding. That is what the
:31:31. > :31:34.Tories were blocking. If you want the clearest example at the European
:31:35. > :31:39.elections, the Conservative Party and MEPs blocked the cap on bankers
:31:40. > :31:45.bonuses, and then blocked a Labour victory to get money for free
:31:46. > :31:51.banks. We need to move on to the future. It is important and people
:31:52. > :31:54.are watching. The EU's Justice Minister says that we need to build
:31:55. > :32:02.a United States of Europe with the commission as its government. Is she
:32:03. > :32:07.right? Not at all. But the future, if we take the next ten years,
:32:08. > :32:10.thinks about climate change and the fact that we are not going to hit of
:32:11. > :32:15.the two degrees target. Europe has led and needs to lead towards
:32:16. > :32:19.getting a new sustainable world It is the political will to use these
:32:20. > :32:24.powers, so she is wrong. It is about the threats from abroad. Labour
:32:25. > :32:27.reforms like getting a commissioner for growth and rebalancing the
:32:28. > :32:31.budget, reforming the common agricultural policy, all of those
:32:32. > :32:38.things will need to happen to make Europe more democratic and open But
:32:39. > :32:43.against the rise of Brazil and China... We do not need more
:32:44. > :32:48.treaties and powers. We need more action with more Labour MEPs. Sarah
:32:49. > :32:53.Ludford, you would sign up to that? No. Unless they do not think that
:32:54. > :32:59.should concentrate on institutional matters. What we need to do is
:33:00. > :33:03.concentrate on making Europe progrowth and competitive and create
:33:04. > :33:10.more jobs in a competitive world. We need more trade deals to open up our
:33:11. > :33:15.exports, we need to streamline the EU. We need less red tape and
:33:16. > :33:18.Liberal Democrats have done a lot on that. We need better scrutiny of EU
:33:19. > :33:27.legislation at West Munster because the national parties... More powers
:33:28. > :33:35.or less for the EU government? In some areas, I would like to see it
:33:36. > :33:38.slimmed down. Including, I am not sure whether the EU should be
:33:39. > :33:44.funding food banks. I think that is a national responsibility. Dearie
:33:45. > :33:50.me. The EU have to concentrate on the economy and climate change. This
:33:51. > :33:53.is the coalition talking. If we want to fritter away political capital on
:33:54. > :33:58.things which are interfering in national matters, then we do not
:33:59. > :34:03.have the support to tackle those big challenges. Would you still want to
:34:04. > :34:12.join the Euro one-day? Now is not a good idea. We wanted the Eurozone to
:34:13. > :34:15.still be sound, which is why... Did not ask you that. Do you want to
:34:16. > :34:20.join the Euro one-day? If it is a success and it did the economy. Now
:34:21. > :34:27.is not the time but in principle, the idea of a single currency has
:34:28. > :34:31.advantages. That was a yes. We are not ruling it out for ever but not
:34:32. > :34:36.in the foreseeable future. It is not on the horizon. What would our
:34:37. > :34:41.relationship be with Europe in the future if UKIP got its way and we
:34:42. > :34:45.left? We would be trading partners with Europe and we would seek
:34:46. > :34:50.partnership in specific serious I'd tell you what, can I just say..
:34:51. > :34:53.Would we be Norway? We would be stronger than Norway because we are
:34:54. > :34:58.the biggest export market in the Eurozone. We can negotiate a bespoke
:34:59. > :35:03.trading agreement reflecting our enormous importance. Not on
:35:04. > :35:08.services, which make up 80% of the economy. We are the biggest export
:35:09. > :35:12.market in the Eurozone. Our biggest exports are services and they would
:35:13. > :35:17.have to agree to free trade and services. They still have not. Can I
:35:18. > :35:22.read you something? Let me read you something. There would be a free
:35:23. > :35:28.trade agreement in place the day after our exit. Germany would demand
:35:29. > :35:33.no less. Who said that? Not somebody from UKIP, but Digby Jones. Mr
:35:34. > :35:37.business. He is talking about goods, not services. Norway has that
:35:38. > :35:43.and they have no say. You would have to accept the EU rules without any
:35:44. > :35:47.say. No MEPs are commissioners. Let me give you another. Enough. One is
:35:48. > :35:55.enough. Syed Kamall, is it not looking forward pretty much Mission:
:35:56. > :36:01.Impossible for Mr Cameron to get anything like the repatriations of
:36:02. > :36:09.powers that would satisfy your irreconcilables? My father was a bus
:36:10. > :36:12.driver in the 50s and one of the reasons I am here today is because
:36:13. > :36:14.he told me that you can achieve anything if you work hard. He said
:36:15. > :36:19.to me, do not listen to the doubters. When people tell you that
:36:20. > :36:22.something cannot be done, it is a sign of their limitations, not
:36:23. > :36:25.yours. They said that we could not pull Britain out of the bailout
:36:26. > :36:31.mechanism but we did it. He said we could not be to a -- veto European
:36:32. > :36:36.treaty and we did that. They said we would never cut the budget and we
:36:37. > :36:41.did that. The first ever. But overall, we are paying more into the
:36:42. > :36:46.European budget. And they are not sticking to it. More, not less. They
:36:47. > :36:48.say that we cannot achieve reform but we have achieved reform and we
:36:49. > :36:54.are at the forefront of that. Science's father came to Britain
:36:55. > :37:04.because Britain was open and looking outward. What the Conservatives now
:37:05. > :37:10.have, with leaderless Cameron, is an inward looking attitude. They are
:37:11. > :37:15.allowing the rise of UKIP. They are putting so much at risk. People
:37:16. > :37:20.should vote Labour. We are going to have to stop now. No point talking
:37:21. > :37:25.because we are about to finish. I think you all for a spirited debate.
:37:26. > :37:28.I'm sure Nigel Fries and Mr Clegg will have learned a lot about how to
:37:29. > :37:31.debate. -- Nigel Farage. It's just gone 3pm, and you're
:37:32. > :37:34.watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who
:37:35. > :37:36.leave us now for Sunday Politics Scotland. Coming up here in twenty
:37:37. > :37:49.minutes, the Hello, I'm Arif Ansari. Comhng up in
:37:50. > :37:55.the North West: After an 11`month investigation, a five`week trial.
:37:56. > :38:03.The Ribble Valley MP Nigel Dvans now cleared of nine sex charges
:38:04. > :38:08.including rape. As many of xou know, I've been through 11 lonths of
:38:09. > :38:13.hell. All I can say is that after the last 11 months that I'vd gone
:38:14. > :38:16.through, nothing will ever be the same again.
:38:17. > :38:19.We have an in`depth look at the legal and political issues flowing
:38:20. > :38:22.from the case. In the studio the former Conservative minister Edwina
:38:23. > :38:25.Currie, who's a friend of Nhgel Evans. The Labour MP for Rochdale,
:38:26. > :38:37.Simon Danczuk, who's campaigned to expose abuse. And Stuart Pollitt is
:38:38. > :38:41.live in Mr Evans's constitudncy No sign of Nigel Evans at hhs home
:38:42. > :38:45.today but in the front window of the House behind me, plenty of cards
:38:46. > :38:50.from his supporters. But how much support does he have at amongst his
:38:51. > :38:52.constituency party and the voters in the Ribble Valley? I'll be
:38:53. > :38:58.investigating. We'll find out in a second but Nigel
:38:59. > :39:03.Evans is on the front of thd Sunday papers. We see from this th`t at one
:39:04. > :39:07.point, he even contemplated suicide. I wouldn't be in the least
:39:08. > :39:13.surprised. He is a gentle, sensitive soul. I've known him the best part
:39:14. > :39:17.of 30 years. He was a parli`mentary candidate first in 1985 when I was
:39:18. > :39:22.NUM peak. I've always thought very highly of him. He comes frol a
:39:23. > :39:26.background in south Wales, hn Swansea. There aren't many Tories in
:39:27. > :39:30.Swansea and they certainly `ren t many Tories who grew up in
:39:31. > :39:33.newsagents'. He comes from `n ordinary background and has done
:39:34. > :39:39.extremely well. That's wherd you start from. In those circumstances,
:39:40. > :39:43.the kind of hell that he's been put through by people that he s`ys he
:39:44. > :39:48.believes where his friends, I think that makes you question whether it
:39:49. > :39:53.is worth going on. We will find out. Simon, are the questions here
:39:54. > :39:57.relating to the Westminster culture? I don't think they are parthcularly.
:39:58. > :40:01.I have complete sympathy for Nigel and what he's had to go through
:40:02. > :40:07.He's been to hell and back, as he quite rightly says. His repttation
:40:08. > :40:11.has been damaged. He's ?130,000 in debt in terms of legal costs so he's
:40:12. > :40:15.been through the mill and I thing we should have much sympathy. But in
:40:16. > :40:19.terms of the culture in Westminster, I don't see sole of the
:40:20. > :40:23.culture that has been identhfied in this trial so I'm not familhar with
:40:24. > :40:26.that, but I'm not a Conserv`tive MP or researcher. But I'm not familiar
:40:27. > :40:29.with some other things that been identified.
:40:30. > :40:33.The trial lasted five weeks, and it took the jury just six hours to
:40:34. > :40:36.clear him of all nine chargds. This morning Nigel Evans has told the
:40:37. > :40:40.Sunday papers that he wants to continue as the Ribble Valldy MP `
:40:41. > :40:43.that's a decision for the local party. And he's attacked thd Crown
:40:44. > :40:47.Prosecution Service for pursuing the case at all. Euan Doak reports on
:40:48. > :40:56.the legal process that left the MP fighting to survive. Order! Do you
:40:57. > :41:00.understand? Nigel Evans has been a fixttre of
:41:01. > :41:05.the Ribble Valley political scene for many years and, for the past
:41:06. > :41:08.year, has felt under siege. All I can say is that after the l`st 1
:41:09. > :41:15.months that I've gone through, nothing will ever be the sale again.
:41:16. > :41:21.He'd been supported during the case by friends from across the political
:41:22. > :41:28.divide, and by his own local party. What's your reaction to what
:41:29. > :41:31.happened over the last year? I think very disappointing, really,
:41:32. > :41:35.that the case was brought. H do feel, having been there for much of
:41:36. > :41:38.the trial, I thought the evhdence was very flimsy. Nigel expl`ined to
:41:39. > :41:42.me right at the outset that the evidence that he'd seen, yot know,
:41:43. > :41:46.didn't really amount to anything. The jury at Preston Crown Court took
:41:47. > :41:50.just six hours to dismiss one charge of rape, five of sexual ass`ult one
:41:51. > :41:54.of attempted sexual assault and two of indecent assault. Headlines then
:41:55. > :41:59.focused on the legal process that brought him there. Here in the heart
:42:00. > :42:02.of the Ribble Valley, Nigel Evans has been supported by both his
:42:03. > :42:05.Conservative association and his constituents. Now attention is
:42:06. > :42:10.turning to whether the prosdcution should have been brought in the
:42:11. > :42:13.first place. The case against Mr Evans was based on the rape charge
:42:14. > :42:16.and then supported by historic allegations. His lawyer argtes his
:42:17. > :42:22.public profile influenced the decision to prosecute. I thhnk
:42:23. > :42:25.there's been a culture recently of not wanting to be seen to sweep
:42:26. > :42:29.things under the carpet and sometimes the brave decision is to
:42:30. > :42:33.actually not prosecute. And I think in this case, it was obvious from a
:42:34. > :42:36.fairly early stage, even at the police station, that the rape
:42:37. > :42:40.complaint was weak. The CPS say the case was treated on merit, not on
:42:41. > :42:43.personality. Across the board, we don't care who the complain`nt is,
:42:44. > :42:47.we don't care who has been complained against. We look at the
:42:48. > :42:51.evidence. The evidence is what drives us. The evidence is what we
:42:52. > :42:55.respect and scrutinise and we allow only those cases where therd is a
:42:56. > :43:00.realistic prospect to go to court. Nigel Evans says nobody wins after a
:43:01. > :43:02.case like this. As the cracks appear in the trust for the Crown
:43:03. > :43:06.Prosecution Service, support for Nigel Evans still appears to be
:43:07. > :43:09.holding. To help us better understand some of
:43:10. > :43:16.those issues, we're joined by the legal affairs analyst Joshu`
:43:17. > :43:22.Rozenberg. Joshua, good to have you back on the programme. Did the CPS
:43:23. > :43:26.do anything wrong? Well, thdy certainly don't think so. Alison
:43:27. > :43:30.Saunders, who heads the CPS, said that the test, as you heard in that
:43:31. > :43:34.report, is whether there is a realistic chance of a conviction.
:43:35. > :43:39.She says there was. Of course there are many reasons why there lay be
:43:40. > :43:42.enough evidence on paper to support a conviction. But the jury has to be
:43:43. > :43:47.sure that cases proved beyond reasonable doubt. They were not so
:43:48. > :43:50.convinced in this case and that s why they acquitted. But that doesn't
:43:51. > :43:54.necessarily mean that the ddcision to bring the prosecution was wrong.
:43:55. > :43:57.On the other hand, there is something to be said for thd
:43:58. > :44:00.argument that these days thd prosecution service lean perhaps too
:44:01. > :44:10.heavily, especially in sexu`l cases, in favour of bringing across the
:44:11. > :44:15.kitchen. `` bringing a prosdcution. Nigel Evans clearly feels that they
:44:16. > :44:18.were wrong. What do you think? I think they're trying to makd amends.
:44:19. > :44:22.I think this CPS is trying to make amends for the times when they have
:44:23. > :44:25.prosecuted high profile people who have been involved in sexual
:44:26. > :44:33.assaults. We're in the BBC. Jimmy Savile is an obvious one and Cyril
:44:34. > :44:39.Smith is another. But you c`n't try, almost by copying a case. You have
:44:40. > :44:43.to try each case on its merhts but they did do it on its merits and
:44:44. > :44:48.they came to the conclusion that it was right to prosecute. I fdel sorry
:44:49. > :44:51.for the police officers that investigate this case. They are done
:44:52. > :44:57.that they do and damned if they don't. But to portray Nigel Evans,
:44:58. > :45:01.as a 57`year`old male in a senior position as a sexual predator, it
:45:02. > :45:05.just became laughable if yot knew Nigel Evans. That was the
:45:06. > :45:08.difference. Sometimes the allegations look obvious and you
:45:09. > :45:15.think, "yes, that person has been..." You don't always know
:45:16. > :45:20.people. Part of the evidencd has to be, how have they behaved up to that
:45:21. > :45:24.point? What kind of impresshon do they make? What kind of character do
:45:25. > :45:28.they have? If you haven't got friends at evidence and you only
:45:29. > :45:32.have complained that may be made through anger, through jealousy
:45:33. > :45:35.that may have been attempts of blackmail. There are whole host of
:45:36. > :45:40.other possible emotions and motives that can bring a case to cotrt.
:45:41. > :45:44.Simon, the role of the CPS? I think they've had a difficult job to do.
:45:45. > :45:48.I'm the first to criticise `ny agency that is failing but hn this
:45:49. > :45:52.instance, I think they prob`bly did what they thought to be the right
:45:53. > :45:55.thing. It's not for the CPS to determine whether this guy hs guilty
:45:56. > :46:00.or not but for the jury and that's why they pushed it forward to
:46:01. > :46:05.court. That's ultimately whdre it belongs so we don't want to throw
:46:06. > :46:10.the baby out with the bath water. Joshua, did the CPS undermined their
:46:11. > :46:14.own case by bringing forward three so`called victims who came to court
:46:15. > :46:20.and said, "we don't think wd are victims and we don't know why this
:46:21. > :46:23.is being prosecuted" ? It isn't up to witnesses, even alleged victims,
:46:24. > :46:27.to decide whether a cases proved. It's their job to give eviddnce and
:46:28. > :46:32.if the case is made out, thd court decides. I don't see why it
:46:33. > :46:37.undermines one charge to brhng a separate charge. These are separate
:46:38. > :46:41.charges and it's possible that any defendant could be convicted of one
:46:42. > :46:46.of several charges they facd and it doesn't weaken one charge shmply to
:46:47. > :46:49.bring others. But, Joshua, these aren't battered wives who c`n't make
:46:50. > :46:53.decisions for themselves. These are adult men who look back on this
:46:54. > :46:59.incident and basically said they had lasted off by the following week.
:47:00. > :47:03.Well, that was not how it looks to the CPS from the statements that
:47:04. > :47:06.they gave to the police. Thdy may well say in court that what they
:47:07. > :47:10.said to the police doesn't necessarily represent the ftll truth
:47:11. > :47:15.but the CPS has to go on police statements and they judged ht on
:47:16. > :47:21.that basis. One final point. Nigel Evans is saying today that he feels
:47:22. > :47:26.the CPS should pick up his ?130 000 legal bill. What do you makd of
:47:27. > :47:32.that? Well, he was elected to Parliament as a Conservativd MP and
:47:33. > :47:37.it's the present Conservative led Coalition that abolished thd ability
:47:38. > :47:42.of people facing criminal charges to get anything back. Even now they can
:47:43. > :47:45.only get back what they would have got if they paid for legal `id
:47:46. > :47:50.lawyer so it's really up to Parliament. I do think it is unfair.
:47:51. > :47:53.I think he's right about th`t but it is Parliament that decided that
:47:54. > :47:55.acquitted defendants wouldn't get their costs back. Thank you very
:47:56. > :47:58.much. Well, it was an extraordinary trial.
:47:59. > :48:02.The most serious criminal charges facing a sitting MP in living
:48:03. > :48:06.memory. Nigel Evans had his personal life picked over in public. "Nothing
:48:07. > :48:10.will ever be the same again," he said. I've been looking back over
:48:11. > :48:20.his political career and trxing to assess the impact of this trial
:48:21. > :48:26.Order! Order! Nigel Evans w`s Deputy Speaker of the House of Comlons
:48:27. > :48:29.Witty, popular and respected. But one evening last May, his office
:48:30. > :48:36.warned him detectives were on their way. Allegations of rape and sexual
:48:37. > :48:41.assault filled the newspapers. But he began life modestly. Not in the
:48:42. > :48:48.headlines but behind the cotnter, working at the family newsagent in
:48:49. > :48:51.Swansea. His passion, though, was politics and by 1987, he was already
:48:52. > :49:00.addressing the Conservative party conference in Blackpool. Out will go
:49:01. > :49:04.left wing bias. Out will go pro`gay teaching. Sexuality would play a
:49:05. > :49:10.major role in his story but first, he fought the 1991 Ribble V`lley
:49:11. > :49:16.by`election with celebrity support. A very friendly looking chap! But it
:49:17. > :49:25.wasn't enough to overcome the poll tax. I'm an ex`Tory voter and I
:49:26. > :49:30.wouldn't vote for them again. The Tories are in trouble tonight in the
:49:31. > :49:34.Ribble Valley by`election. Ht was a crushing defeat but Nigel Evans
:49:35. > :49:41.bounced back the following xear Nigel Evans goes in. Michael Carr
:49:42. > :49:46.had a brief tenure in Ribbld Valley. The new MP was promoted, johning the
:49:47. > :49:49.shadow cabinet in 2001. But some of the allegations of inappropriate
:49:50. > :49:54.behaviour stemmed from around this period, and all were lubric`ted by
:49:55. > :50:01.drink. Very drunk, very heavily intoxicated, a high functioning
:50:02. > :50:07.alcoholic. But his friend who runs a pub next door says that was unfair.
:50:08. > :50:11.He does live next to a pub but that doesn't mean to say that he spent
:50:12. > :50:15.all his time in the pub. He comes for breakfast but he doesn't have a
:50:16. > :50:19.pint. He comes for a coffee. In no way does he have a drink problem.
:50:20. > :50:23.But drink was a factor in 2009. A 22`year`old Westminster worker was
:50:24. > :50:28.staying in the constituency. One night, Mr Evans made an unw`nted
:50:29. > :50:32.pass. The man complained to the Chief Whip. What happened at that
:50:33. > :50:37.meeting is disputed but certainly it had the potential to end thd MP s
:50:38. > :50:44.career. The whips ordered Mr Evans to curb his drinking and urged him
:50:45. > :50:48.to come out publicly as gay. You only came out of hiding when the
:50:49. > :50:53.guns started to train on yot instead of what you planned. By now Nigel
:50:54. > :50:56.Evans had left the Shadow C`binet and was serving on Commons
:50:57. > :51:06.committees. In 2010, he was elected Commons Deputy Speaker. Orddr! Do
:51:07. > :51:11.you understand? And later that year he publicly announced he was gay.
:51:12. > :51:15.Any regrets at all? Yeah. I should have made this announcement a long
:51:16. > :51:19.time ago. Some of this case revolved around his informal attitudd to
:51:20. > :51:22.Westminster staff. Among thd many who did work experience with him was
:51:23. > :51:28.Georgina Phillips, now at Lhverpool University. Nigel was reallx lovely.
:51:29. > :51:31.He was really encouraging to get me involved, making sure I saw
:51:32. > :51:41.different offices, making stre I wasn't on my own at any point. He
:51:42. > :51:44.was really great. Back at Westminster, the Conservative MP Dr
:51:45. > :51:47.Sarah Wollaston had heard about the 2009 incident in Pendleton `nd
:51:48. > :51:50.pressed the man to speak to her The Westminster researcher refused to
:51:51. > :51:55.confirm the details but aftdr he heard about the alleged rapd, he
:51:56. > :51:59.changed his mind. Dr Wollaston took him to see the Commons Speaker John
:52:00. > :52:03.Bercow. Mr Bercow took legal advice and refused to get involved but his
:52:04. > :52:09.secretary sent a message to Dr Wollaston. "the Speaker intdnds the
:52:10. > :52:14.police are informed and it's for you to encourage the men to comd
:52:15. > :52:19.forward". Nigel Evans didn't know it but a discreet police inquiry was
:52:20. > :52:25.going on. That inquiry led to Mr Evans's life being intimately
:52:26. > :52:34.exposed. The Clitheroe news`gent who stood against him in 1991 s`ys his
:52:35. > :52:37.customers have been disgustdd. We've got a lot of older customers.
:52:38. > :52:42.There's a lot of families around here. It's quite an affluent area.
:52:43. > :52:46.People are pretty much appalled The jury took just six hours to dismiss
:52:47. > :52:50.all nine charges but Nigel Dvans said he knows the rape allegation
:52:51. > :52:52.will live with him for the rest of his life.
:52:53. > :52:57.And we're also joined now bx Christine Hamilton, the wifd of
:52:58. > :53:01.former Tatton MP Neil Hamilton. Christine, thanks for joining us.
:53:02. > :53:05.What did Nigel Evans mean when he said life would never be thd same
:53:06. > :53:08.again? Exactly that. And thd idea that he can just pick himself up and
:53:09. > :53:11.go on with his life as if nothing has happened is completely
:53:12. > :53:16.ridiculous. This is the hugd damage that something like this dods to an
:53:17. > :53:20.innocent man. And of course the CPS has to investigate any complaints
:53:21. > :53:24.that they get but there has to be a certain amount of balance. They ve
:53:25. > :53:27.said that they don't make any difference between a normal person
:53:28. > :53:30.and a member of Parliament or a celebrity but I do not think that
:53:31. > :53:35.there are any circumstances in which this case would have been brought if
:53:36. > :53:40.Nigel had not been an MP and in the public eye. In your case, there were
:53:41. > :53:47.complaints made against you which the CPS dismissed and said that they
:53:48. > :53:51.were groundless. If that was happening today, do you think it
:53:52. > :53:56.might have been different? Well what happened in our case in 20 1,
:53:57. > :54:01.there was one person who sahd that my husband and I had taken part in a
:54:02. > :54:05.break of serve. We'd never let her in our lives and one of the people
:54:06. > :54:10.who was in the shadows who sold her story to the News of the World was
:54:11. > :54:15.Max Clifford. She sold her `nonymity for ?50,000, which brings md to this
:54:16. > :54:18.business of anonymity, which I feel very strongly about. Our nales
:54:19. > :54:21.should never have been in the newspaper. We were never ch`rged and
:54:22. > :54:25.there's no reason why our n`mes should have been out there. And you
:54:26. > :54:30.feel that that has hung over you, do you? I wouldn't in a million years
:54:31. > :54:35.compare what we went to, whhch was very short ` a matter of wedks `
:54:36. > :54:42.with the sheer living hell that Nigel and people like Bill Roache
:54:43. > :54:45.have been through. I do not compare it at all but life will nevdr be the
:54:46. > :54:50.same again. The point is th`t we all want the same thing. We all want no
:54:51. > :54:53.guilty person to go unpunished but we all want not a single innocent
:54:54. > :54:58.person to have to go through what Nigel has gone through. The
:54:59. > :55:03.difficulty is finding the b`lance. Thank you, Christine. Edwin`, did
:55:04. > :55:07.Nigel Evans behaved inappropriately? Well, that in the end, was ` matter
:55:08. > :55:12.of opinion and the jury took the view that whatever he did w`sn't
:55:13. > :55:16.criminal for top absolutely. We can all be judged on whether we behaved
:55:17. > :55:20.appropriately or inappropri`tely, especially at a Christmas p`rty
:55:21. > :55:25.especially if we've had a drink especially if you are slightly
:55:26. > :55:29.vulnerable person, as anyond who is gay or has perhaps come out... They
:55:30. > :55:33.are quite shy about it and not very sure about it. It's also quhte clear
:55:34. > :55:36.that the jury took very serhously the defence point that you lay
:55:37. > :55:42.regret afterwards what has happened. In Christine and Neil s
:55:43. > :55:49.case, nothing happened. In this case, something happened. You may
:55:50. > :55:53.regret it. Mr Evans slept whth a 21`year`old student who he knew
:55:54. > :55:56.professionally. Which the student afterwards regretted but, as the
:55:57. > :56:01.defence put it, and I think it's total common`sense for the jury to
:56:02. > :56:08.have taken on board, regret is not rape. Justice has been done and we
:56:09. > :56:13.should have some relief frol that but my concern is that the CPS in
:56:14. > :56:17.months and years gone by, h`ve not suggested prosecution when clearly
:56:18. > :56:21.should have done. That's wh`t I mean by, we shouldn't throw the baby out
:56:22. > :56:25.with the bath water. Public figures in years gone by have got away with
:56:26. > :56:29.committing abuse when they shouldn't have done because the CPS wouldn't
:56:30. > :56:34.encourage prosecution. I don't want us to take a step backwards so that
:56:35. > :56:38.the CPS are reluctant to take cases forward. You mentioned Jimmx
:56:39. > :56:45.Savile, quite rightly, and Cyril Smith. You mention in your lemoirs
:56:46. > :56:49.Peter Morrison, the former LP for Chester and suggest he was `
:56:50. > :56:53.paedophile. Never prosecuted. A Conservative MP, very close to
:56:54. > :56:57.Margaret Thatcher, never prosecuted. How did he get away with th`t?
:56:58. > :57:01.You've got to remember that the law was different at the age of consent
:57:02. > :57:05.was 21, so that if somebody was sleeping with somebody who was 8,
:57:06. > :57:11.which would now be Beagle, ht would have been a crime at the tile. So
:57:12. > :57:15.how do people get away with it? Sometimes because the peopld who are
:57:16. > :57:19.their victims don't see thelselves as victims and, again, are content
:57:20. > :57:23.to continue. Not everything results in a complaint or stop it doesn t,
:57:24. > :57:27.of course stop Christine Halilton, thank you very for your timd.
:57:28. > :57:29.Let's get some reaction frol the constituency now. Our reporter
:57:30. > :57:33.Stuart Pollitt is in the Ribble Valley. Stuart, have you bedn able
:57:34. > :57:37.to gauge reaction among Mr Dvans's voters?
:57:38. > :57:43.It is pretty quiet this aftdrnoon. No sign of Nigel Evans himsdlf. But
:57:44. > :57:48.he's been the MP here since 199 and said this morning that he does want
:57:49. > :57:50.to carry on as MP but as he said on the steps Preston Crown Court,
:57:51. > :57:55.nothing will ever be the sale again after this trial. So how much
:57:56. > :58:00.support does he retain amongst the voters? This is a selection of what
:58:01. > :58:03.some of them think. He's a great local MP. He works really h`rd for
:58:04. > :58:08.the people of the Ribble Valley and I'd like to see him continud.
:58:09. > :58:14.Obviously, it does throw up a few concerns as to his character. But at
:58:15. > :58:17.the end of the day, the justice system in this country has found him
:58:18. > :58:23.not guilty so the guy is innocent. He handed in his resignation as the
:58:24. > :58:29.Speaker, didn't he? I said then that he should have resigned. I don't
:58:30. > :58:33.think is entirely blameless from some of the behaviour that H've
:58:34. > :58:39.read, but, then again, none of us are white as snow, are we? Lixed
:58:40. > :58:43.opinions there and I'm joindd by the Conservative leader on Lanc`shire
:58:44. > :58:48.county council. How much support does Nigel Evans have amongst the
:58:49. > :58:54.constituency party? From my point of view, lots. The support has never
:58:55. > :58:57.waned at all. Anybody who knows Nigel knows absolutely that these
:58:58. > :59:01.charges were a fabrication `nd, obviously, we were concerned but it
:59:02. > :59:05.really came as no surprise to us that they were all thrown ott. He
:59:06. > :59:09.was found innocent of the charges but what about some of the behaviour
:59:10. > :59:13.that came out in this trial? I'm thinking about heavy drinking at
:59:14. > :59:17.Westminster, for example. Whll that be damaging amongst voters? I was in
:59:18. > :59:20.the court on most days and heard much of that evidence and to me it
:59:21. > :59:29.wasn't so much exaggeration, it wasn't true. The chief whip felt the
:59:30. > :59:33.need to get involved at one point. I've no Nigel Evans for over 20
:59:34. > :59:36.years and been in his company many, many times, both here in thd
:59:37. > :59:39.village, elsewhere in the constituency and in the House of
:59:40. > :59:43.Commons. I can honestly tell you I've never seen him drunk so it s an
:59:44. > :59:48.exaggeration and the things that were being said are not the Nigel
:59:49. > :59:51.Evans I know. Thank you verx much for joining us. It remains to be
:59:52. > :59:55.seen whether Nigel Evans dods get the backing of his constitudncy
:59:56. > :59:59.party and then win the seat at the election.
:00:00. > :00:04.Thank you for that. Simon, what lessons do we draw from all this? I
:00:05. > :00:08.think the CPS need to stay firm but in terms of Westminster, perhaps
:00:09. > :00:12.there is a need for more pastoral care around staff and MPs. Ddwina,
:00:13. > :00:18.can Nigel Evans pick up where he left off? Oh, yes. He came hnto
:00:19. > :00:22.court with an excellent repttation amongst his constituents and his
:00:23. > :00:28.party, his local people. We're very solid up north. We say it as we find
:00:29. > :00:31.it and he is a very good MP. I've no doubt his colleagues in the Commons
:00:32. > :00:37.will agree. Thank you both very much indeed. We know that Nigel Dvans
:00:38. > :00:37.wishes to continue as the MP for the Ribble Valley.
:00:38. > :00:47.risk. We have run out of time. - particular candidates. Back to you,
:00:48. > :00:51.Andrew. The sun's out, Ed Balls has run the
:00:52. > :00:53.London Marathon, and MPs leave Westminster for their Easter break.
:00:54. > :01:04.Let's discuss what's coming up in the Week Ahead.
:01:05. > :01:08.We will get more of what we have just seen. Let's look back on the
:01:09. > :01:13.debate. What did we learn from the argument is? That it is going to
:01:14. > :01:18.bore and irritate whole lot of people, this election campaign. Four
:01:19. > :01:22.parties shouting at each other about things that most people do not know
:01:23. > :01:26.much about. They know very little about how the European Parliament
:01:27. > :01:35.works, what an MEP is supposed to do. A lot of heat and not a lot of
:01:36. > :01:38.light. I've updated well, all of them, but the net effect is not
:01:39. > :01:45.going to encourage people to go out and vote and not many do. One thing
:01:46. > :01:50.that struck me was that on Europe, the Labour and Lib Dem positions are
:01:51. > :01:55.not that far apart. They are pretty much the same. And yet the knocks
:01:56. > :01:58.lots of each other. I suppose they feel that they had to do that
:01:59. > :02:04.because that is the format. I'd agree with Polly. Their word UKIP
:02:05. > :02:11.and the Tories to attack two we try to make it exciting, and we know the
:02:12. > :02:14.issues are important. But people out there have not heard of these
:02:15. > :02:18.individuals. It is not very exciting. That is worrying because
:02:19. > :02:22.these are huge national questions for us. We need to find a way of
:02:23. > :02:29.making it more fun. People may not know these MEPs, they may not know
:02:30. > :02:32.the detail of the debate, but it is an issue on which people have strong
:02:33. > :02:37.opinions. It is a visceral thing for many people. Especially on the
:02:38. > :02:43.immigration issue. The debate took off and became more vociferous at
:02:44. > :02:47.that point. To a large extent, you wonder whether not only this
:02:48. > :02:50.European election but the eventual referendum will be a referendum on
:02:51. > :02:54.the issue of immigration and free movement. If we did not learn much
:02:55. > :02:57.from the argument, the thing we did learn is that the structure of these
:02:58. > :03:05.televised debate influences the outcome. One of the reasons that
:03:06. > :03:11.Nigel Farage did well in the debate is that in a two-man debate, each
:03:12. > :03:15.man has as good a chance as the other. If it is four people, one man
:03:16. > :03:21.can be ganged up on. Patrick O'Flynn did well for a man who is not an
:03:22. > :03:24.elected politician yet. At times, 40 came under attack and did not hold
:03:25. > :03:28.the line as well as you would expect. Does that create a perverse
:03:29. > :03:33.incentive for the main parties to agree to a four way debate before
:03:34. > :03:36.the general election? I do not think the David Cameron has nearly as much
:03:37. > :03:40.to worry about from a televised debate in the run-up to the
:03:41. > :03:44.elections than his spin doctors believe. When you put him up against
:03:45. > :03:47.Ed Miliband, and we have not actually seen Ed Miliband in that
:03:48. > :03:56.format, I think he will come off all right. This is an election which the
:03:57. > :04:01.polls would have us believe that the battle for first place is between
:04:02. > :04:04.UKIP and labour. It certainly is. Obviously, it is neck and neck and
:04:05. > :04:10.we will not know until we are closer. And it matters a lot to both
:04:11. > :04:13.of them. If Mr Miliband does not come first, that is not good news
:04:14. > :04:20.for the main opposition at this stage. Except to some extent all of
:04:21. > :04:26.the people will put it to one side and say that this is a bizarre
:04:27. > :04:29.election. A plague on both your houses, let's vote UKIP. It is not
:04:30. > :04:34.clear how much that translates into the next election. It is not too
:04:35. > :04:41.disastrous for Labour. It would be better if they came first. If Mr
:04:42. > :04:48.Miliband comes first, not a problem, but it becomes second and UKIP soars
:04:49. > :04:50.away, what are the consequences I think there is a widespread
:04:51. > :04:56.expectation already at Westminster that UKIP is very likely to come
:04:57. > :04:59.first. If Ed Miliband fails to come first, there will not be a great
:05:00. > :05:03.deal of shock in the West Mr village. Else think what is
:05:04. > :05:08.remarkable about Ed Miliband is that despite consistently poor personal
:05:09. > :05:15.leadership approval ratings, the overall Labour poll is consistently
:05:16. > :05:18.very high. We have seen that budget blip, it seems to have taken us back
:05:19. > :05:23.to where we were before. Leadership is not everything. Mrs Thatcher was
:05:24. > :05:29.miles behind James Callaghan but in the end, it was the party politics
:05:30. > :05:35.that mattered more. If Mr Cameron comes third and the Tories come
:05:36. > :05:39.third, maybe a poor third, is it headless chicken time on the Tory
:05:40. > :05:42.backbenchers? It has often been said that the Tory Party has two modes,
:05:43. > :05:51.complacency and panic. You will see them shift into panic mode. By June,
:05:52. > :05:54.I think. Many of the stories in the sun will be about David Cameron s
:05:55. > :05:58.personal leadership and his grip on the party. There will be pressure on
:05:59. > :06:03.conference by the time that comes around. It is a natural consequence
:06:04. > :06:10.of being the incumbent party. The Lib Dems are 7% in two of the polls
:06:11. > :06:15.today. It was widely thought that in the first and second debates, Nigel
:06:16. > :06:22.Farage won both. In retrospect, was the challenge strategy a disaster
:06:23. > :06:26.for Mr Clegg? I do not think it was because he had nothing to lose. But
:06:27. > :06:32.he is lower in the polls than when he started. He has not lost a great
:06:33. > :06:38.deal. The polls were quite often that low. I think it was a good
:06:39. > :06:43.thing to do. It raised his profile. It made him the leading party in.
:06:44. > :06:50.That may be a difficult place to be. That is how you end up with 7%
:06:51. > :06:53.in the polls. The reason he is fighting with Labour is that he
:06:54. > :06:57.knows very well that all he has to do is to get his votes back that
:06:58. > :07:03.have gone to Labour and labour have to fight hard to make sure that they
:07:04. > :07:07.do not go back. Every party looks to where it is going to get it
:07:08. > :07:11.support. If it is a wipe-out for the Lib Dems, and they lose all their
:07:12. > :07:19.MEPs, not saying that is going to happen but you could not rule it out
:07:20. > :07:21.for, are we back in Nick Clegg leadership crisis territory? One of
:07:22. > :07:25.the astonishing things about this Parliament is the relative absence
:07:26. > :07:29.of leadership speculation about Nick Clegg will stop at the first couple
:07:30. > :07:33.of years, his position seems tricky, but maybe that is because
:07:34. > :07:37.Chris Hughton is gone and he was the only plausible candidate. This cable
:07:38. > :07:41.is not getting any younger, to put it delicately. That was not delegate
:07:42. > :07:44.at all! And we have reached a desperate stage where Danny
:07:45. > :07:48.Alexander is talked about as a candidate. That was not delegate
:07:49. > :07:53.either! Maybe he is holding onto power the lack of alternatives. If
:07:54. > :08:00.they ended up with no MEPs at all, and a less than double digits
:08:01. > :08:04.score... With Danny Alexander, it is clear that Scotland, one way or
:08:05. > :08:10.another, will be moving further away. You could not have the leader
:08:11. > :08:14.of a national party be a Scot. But he does not have the following in
:08:15. > :08:17.the party. I'm glad you're liberal attitudes to immigration extends to
:08:18. > :08:23.me. I would not have been here for 43 years. There will be leadership
:08:24. > :08:28.talk after that holes. It has been bubbling in the background, but you
:08:29. > :08:34.have to talk to the grass roots activists. -- after the polls. The
:08:35. > :08:38.grass roots activists are despairing. If things are bad, they
:08:39. > :08:42.lose their network of activists who they need to fight the next
:08:43. > :08:45.election. I think you mean, not that you could have a Scot, but that it
:08:46. > :08:52.would be more difficult to have a Scot from a Scottish constituency.
:08:53. > :08:57.Absolutely. I think a Scottish constituency, so many things will be
:08:58. > :09:01.different. Or to hold the great offices of state. Let's come onto
:09:02. > :09:06.the Crown Prosecution Service is. It is an English institution. Where
:09:07. > :09:10.does the CPS and after losing yet another high-profile case come this
:09:11. > :09:14.time Nigel Evans? They had nine counts against him and they did not
:09:15. > :09:21.win on one. It is obviously very embarrassing. They will have a bit
:09:22. > :09:24.of explain to do but I guess the threshold for bringing these cases
:09:25. > :09:30.is high. There has to be considered at least a 50-50 chance of actually
:09:31. > :09:33.winning the case. We do not know what went on behind the scenes when
:09:34. > :09:36.they weighed up whether to bring the case. Nigel Evans makes an
:09:37. > :09:40.interesting point about whether it is legitimate to bundle together a
:09:41. > :09:46.number of stand-alone relatively weak accusations, and when you put
:09:47. > :09:52.them together to militantly, the CPS uses that to make a case. Is that a
:09:53. > :09:55.legitimate thing to do? He was a high-profile figure, not just
:09:56. > :10:03.because he was a Tory MP. He was the deputy speaker of the House. And yet
:10:04. > :10:08.the CPS are certainly the police, to begin with they did not have that
:10:09. > :10:12.many people to testify against him. And then they trawled for more. You
:10:13. > :10:15.wonder if they would have done that if it was not for the fact that he
:10:16. > :10:19.was a public figure. The trouble is, they are dammed if they do and
:10:20. > :10:22.dammed if they do not. Particularly with politicians and the reputation
:10:23. > :10:25.they have these days, if there is any suggestion that they let
:10:26. > :10:29.somebody off because they are a high-profile politician, and they
:10:30. > :10:35.are saying that about Cyril Smith, that is the accusation. A strange
:10:36. > :10:39.story. Most unlikely and very bizarre. But that is the accusation.
:10:40. > :10:45.If there is any with of that, I can see why the CPS says, we better let
:10:46. > :10:48.the courts try this one. Also, they are in trouble overrated cases
:10:49. > :10:56.because their success rate on bringing people to court for rape is
:10:57. > :10:58.so thin. When it looked as if his accusers were not really accusing
:10:59. > :11:04.him, it looks quite weak. You cannot help but feeling that they are
:11:05. > :11:07.falling over backwards now in high-profile cases because of their
:11:08. > :11:11.abject and total failure over Jimmy Savile. I think this is exactly the
:11:12. > :11:16.kind of case that happens when you are trying to make a point or redeem
:11:17. > :11:20.a reputation or change a culture. All of these big things. As opposed
:11:21. > :11:23.to what criminal justice is supposed to be about, which is specific
:11:24. > :11:27.crimes and specific evidence matching those crimes. The CPS has
:11:28. > :11:31.no copper a fleet joined in this list of public and situations that
:11:32. > :11:34.has taken a fall over the past five or six years. We have had
:11:35. > :11:37.Parliament, the newspapers, the police will stop I think this is as
:11:38. > :11:41.bad a humiliation as any of those because it is Innocent people
:11:42. > :11:44.suffering. You are the most recent, being a lobby correspondent in
:11:45. > :11:48.Westminster, and we now see on Channel 4 News that basically,
:11:49. > :11:56.Westminster is twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah. Yes. I know. Is this
:11:57. > :11:59.true? It is all rather the red. I do not move in those circles. And you
:12:00. > :12:05.were in the lobby at one stage? Not that long ago. Is it right. Is it
:12:06. > :12:09.right to be twinned with Sodom and Gomorrah? I'll ask him for his
:12:10. > :12:16.opinion. Being technically a member of the lobby, I can observe some of
:12:17. > :12:21.this stuff. And what surprises me is that journalists, when the complain
:12:22. > :12:25.about Sodom and Gomorrah, write themselves out of it. It is as if it
:12:26. > :12:30.is just MPs. We are unalloyed and unvarnished. Actually, the fact is
:12:31. > :12:34.it has always been a bit like Sodom and tomorrow. Of course it has.
:12:35. > :12:38.Think about how we have had wave after wave of stories and scandals.
:12:39. > :12:43.But less of it recently. It was I think that attitudes have slightly
:12:44. > :12:50.changed. I'll also think that if you get 650 people in any organisation
:12:51. > :12:53.and you put that much scrutiny on them, you will find an awful lot
:12:54. > :12:58.going on in most people's officers of a scurrilous nature. Even in the
:12:59. > :14:01.BBC In 2013, the public voted for
:14:02. > :14:03.a portrait of At times he's interesting,
:14:04. > :14:13.at times he's very funny,