:00:38. > :00:48.No surprise that Mr Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit.
:00:49. > :00:51.But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit?
:00:52. > :00:54.Doctors want to ban smoking outright.
:00:55. > :00:57.A sensible health measure or the health lobby's secret plan all
:00:58. > :01:10.And in the North West: Should we build on the Green Belt?
:01:11. > :01:14.And the Conservative blueprhnt for a global northern powerhouse,
:01:15. > :01:31.And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political
:01:32. > :01:42.panel in the business Nick Watt Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh.
:01:43. > :01:44.They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in
:01:45. > :01:47.Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence
:01:48. > :01:49.He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made
:01:50. > :01:51.it big in the world of European politic.
:01:52. > :01:55.I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg
:01:56. > :01:59.He'll soon be President of the European Commission,
:02:00. > :02:05.He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course.
:02:06. > :02:09.But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up
:02:10. > :02:24.on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker.
:02:25. > :02:27.-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist
:02:28. > :02:29.So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes
:02:30. > :02:32.of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK?
:02:33. > :02:37.Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington
:02:38. > :02:43.Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr
:02:44. > :02:46.Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got
:02:47. > :02:51.harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The
:02:52. > :02:57.majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts
:02:58. > :03:01.power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right
:03:02. > :03:09.cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European
:03:10. > :03:18.Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European
:03:19. > :03:21.countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of
:03:22. > :03:24.Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on
:03:25. > :03:26.how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the
:03:27. > :03:32.mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming
:03:33. > :03:37.European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The
:03:38. > :03:43.Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to
:03:44. > :03:49.integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you.
:03:50. > :03:53.What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at
:03:54. > :04:02.different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new
:04:03. > :04:12.Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the
:04:13. > :04:17.approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime
:04:18. > :04:20.Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general
:04:21. > :04:25.acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to
:04:26. > :04:28.the single currency will want to press forward with closer
:04:29. > :04:33.integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country
:04:34. > :04:38.in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern
:04:39. > :04:42.that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with
:04:43. > :04:48.28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the
:04:49. > :04:53.extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and
:04:54. > :04:56.integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable
:04:57. > :05:01.geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is
:05:02. > :05:04.that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the
:05:05. > :05:10.slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which
:05:11. > :05:23.backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that
:05:24. > :05:26.there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to
:05:27. > :05:29.seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the
:05:30. > :05:33.election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the
:05:34. > :05:37.British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the
:05:38. > :05:39.British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will
:05:40. > :05:43.take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron
:05:44. > :05:48.secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance,
:05:49. > :05:53.not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with
:05:54. > :05:59.Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't
:06:00. > :06:03.think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of
:06:04. > :06:11.reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do
:06:12. > :06:23.put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission
:06:24. > :06:28.to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers
:06:29. > :06:32.around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things
:06:33. > :06:35.cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger
:06:36. > :06:40.of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of
:06:41. > :06:43.work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of
:06:44. > :06:46.countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election
:06:47. > :06:50.results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing
:06:51. > :06:53.parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing
:06:54. > :07:01.real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch
:07:02. > :07:05.decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the
:07:06. > :07:10.condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would
:07:11. > :07:17.have to put that question to some of the heads of European government.
:07:18. > :07:20.Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role
:07:21. > :07:28.in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed
:07:29. > :07:32.up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from
:07:33. > :07:36.that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I
:07:37. > :07:40.think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and
:07:41. > :07:45.it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament
:07:46. > :07:50.to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce.
:07:51. > :07:55.They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are
:07:56. > :08:01.the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms
:08:02. > :08:08.of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The
:08:09. > :08:15.current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The
:08:16. > :08:19.Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are?
:08:20. > :08:25.We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at
:08:26. > :08:27.the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on
:08:28. > :08:38.whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you
:08:39. > :08:41.think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest but
:08:42. > :08:46.also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't
:08:47. > :08:50.challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform.
:08:51. > :08:55.Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of
:08:56. > :08:58.State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the
:08:59. > :09:02.existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He
:09:03. > :09:06.doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is
:09:07. > :09:09.the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the
:09:10. > :09:16.position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a
:09:17. > :09:22.distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government
:09:23. > :09:24.now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and
:09:25. > :09:28.the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that
:09:29. > :09:33.important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and
:09:34. > :09:37.that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a
:09:38. > :09:44.whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going
:09:45. > :09:49.to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in
:09:50. > :09:53.2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today For
:09:54. > :09:56.one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press
:09:57. > :10:00.ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done
:10:01. > :10:06.in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain
:10:07. > :10:10.outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of
:10:11. > :10:13.migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this
:10:14. > :10:17.week and we should welcome that Very briefly, finally, when will
:10:18. > :10:20.you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the
:10:21. > :10:24.government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the
:10:25. > :10:31.election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg
:10:32. > :10:36.speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable,
:10:37. > :10:39.more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is
:10:40. > :10:43.all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's
:10:44. > :10:48.not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in
:10:49. > :10:54.the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries
:10:55. > :10:58.those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories
:10:59. > :11:02.and I'm sure the Prime Minister as we get towards the general election,
:11:03. > :11:04.will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and
:11:05. > :11:12.perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank
:11:13. > :11:17.you for joining us this morning The harsh reality of this is that there
:11:18. > :11:20.is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring
:11:21. > :11:25.back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I
:11:26. > :11:29.think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts,
:11:30. > :11:33.those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay
:11:34. > :11:36.regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on
:11:37. > :11:41.renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would
:11:42. > :11:45.vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20
:11:46. > :11:49.years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only
:11:50. > :11:53.stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be
:11:54. > :12:00.re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the
:12:01. > :12:03.referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single
:12:04. > :12:08.biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not
:12:09. > :12:13.what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure
:12:14. > :12:17.to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against
:12:18. > :12:21.Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr
:12:22. > :12:25.Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only
:12:26. > :12:30.because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these
:12:31. > :12:33.changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that
:12:34. > :12:39.would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the
:12:40. > :12:44.biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of
:12:45. > :12:51.coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of
:12:52. > :12:54.benefits, and he might get that He wants to restrict freedom of
:12:55. > :12:57.movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is
:12:58. > :13:02.a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is
:13:03. > :13:05.also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was
:13:06. > :13:10.encouraged because it said, let s look at closer union, but it did not
:13:11. > :13:14.say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted
:13:15. > :13:17.in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The
:13:18. > :13:28.fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when
:13:29. > :13:31.he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling
:13:32. > :13:33.to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela
:13:34. > :13:36.Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the
:13:37. > :13:40.European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it,
:13:41. > :13:43.he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this
:13:44. > :13:47.basic stitch up by the European Parliament that meant he was
:13:48. > :13:50.presented, and when Angela Merkel put the question over his head there
:13:51. > :13:55.was a huge backlash in Germany and she was unable to deliver. I
:13:56. > :13:59.understand that, but I'm looking forward to Mr Cameron's predicament.
:14:00. > :14:05.I don't know how he squares the circle. It seems inconceivable that
:14:06. > :14:10.he can bring back enough from Brussels to satisfy his
:14:11. > :14:14.backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of them fundamentally want out. They
:14:15. > :14:17.don't want to be persuaded by renegotiations. Where it's hard to
:14:18. > :14:21.draw conclusions from the polling is that if you ask people question that
:14:22. > :14:24.sounds like, do you like the fact that our Prime Minister has gone to
:14:25. > :14:28.Brussels and stuck it to the man, they say yes, but how many people
:14:29. > :14:33.will go to the voting booths and put their cross in the box based on
:14:34. > :14:40.Europe? We know mostly voters care about Europe as a proxy for
:14:41. > :14:42.immigration fears. In ten people in this country could not tell you who
:14:43. > :14:44.John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir is replacing. -- and who he is
:14:45. > :14:48.replacing. And I'm joined in the studio now by
:14:49. > :14:50.arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by
:14:51. > :15:12.staunch European and former Liberal war? His declared objectives would
:15:13. > :15:15.leave Britain still in the common agricultural policy, the common
:15:16. > :15:23.foreign policy, the European arrest warrant, so the negotiating aims
:15:24. > :15:26.which we just heard Nick setting out wouldn't fundamentally change
:15:27. > :15:34.anything. It would be easy for the Government to declare war on any of
:15:35. > :15:40.these things. The danger from your point of view as someone who wants
:15:41. > :15:44.to stay in is that if David Cameron only gets cosmetic changes, the
:15:45. > :15:49.chance of getting the vote to leave the European Union increases,
:15:50. > :15:57.doesn't it? Hypothetically it probably does but we have two big
:15:58. > :16:03.things to get through first in domestic politics before we even
:16:04. > :16:07.reach a negotiation. One is are we going to have the United Kingdom
:16:08. > :16:13.this time next year following the referendum in Scotland? Secondly,
:16:14. > :16:40.are the Conservatives after the general election
:16:41. > :16:42.are the Conservatives after the after the election. There is a
:16:43. > :16:49.danger, if he doesn't bring much back, that people will vote yes
:16:50. > :16:54.correct? There is that danger and I see a lot of the British press
:16:55. > :16:59.comment this morning saying this could be a rerun of the Harold
:17:00. > :17:04.Wilson like negotiation of the 1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to
:17:05. > :17:08.say we have got new terms and you should go with it. I think what is
:17:09. > :18:44.different however, and this is really an appeal if you
:18:45. > :18:48.different however, and this is about. I am very proud of being part
:18:49. > :18:54.of the party that is trusting people to offer this. If he only gets
:18:55. > :18:59.cosmetic changes he cannot carry his party. But ultimately it will not be
:19:00. > :19:04.his party, it is the electorate as a whole that has to decide whether the
:19:05. > :19:08.changes are substantive. Everything we have been hearing just now is
:19:09. > :19:12.about staying out of future integration, protecting the role of
:19:13. > :19:18.the non-euro countries. People are upset about what is going on today
:19:19. > :19:23.with the EU. They can see laws being passed by people they cannot vote
:19:24. > :19:27.for, friendships overseas are prejudiced, and they conceive that
:19:28. > :19:32.the European Union has just put in charge in the top slot somebody who
:19:33. > :19:37.wants a United States of Europe into which we will eventually be dragged
:19:38. > :19:43.into as some kind of Providence Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist,
:19:44. > :19:52.you are Federalist, why did the Lib Dems oppose him? We shared the view
:19:53. > :19:55.that whilst you take account of what the members of the European
:19:56. > :20:00.Parliament say, ultimately the choice of the presidency in the
:20:01. > :20:04.commission should be the political leaders, the governmental leaders at
:20:05. > :20:10.a national level, and that's why we went down the route we did. It was
:20:11. > :20:14.more to do with the system than the individual. Although I would say
:20:15. > :20:19.that you need to bear in mind, I mean Daniel, I respect him
:20:20. > :20:25.personally and the integrity of his views, as I think he does mine, but
:20:26. > :20:31.to dismiss the European Union as a small trading block globally, when
:20:32. > :20:35.you have got the United States of America, China and other countries
:20:36. > :20:54.acknowledging its importance, it is really Walter Mitty land. Are we
:20:55. > :21:00.closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we closer to an exit after what
:21:01. > :21:04.happened last week? Yes, because the idea that we could get substantive
:21:05. > :21:13.reforms, gets a mythic and powers back and be within a looser, more
:21:14. > :21:22.flexible European Union has plainly been closed off. We have to face up
:21:23. > :21:27.to the actual European Union that has taken shape on our doorstep Are
:21:28. > :21:31.we going to be part of that or are we going to have a much more
:21:32. > :21:42.semidetached, looser relationship with it which we can either achieve
:21:43. > :21:49.via a unilateral system of power or another way. This debate is
:21:50. > :21:52.never-ending, it is going on and on and has bedevilled British prime
:21:53. > :21:55.ministers for as long as I can remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems
:21:56. > :22:00.change their stance on the referendum yet again let's just have
:22:01. > :22:08.this in-out referendum and have it sided one way or another? Our
:22:09. > :22:14.position remains clear. If there is a constitutional issue put before us
:22:15. > :22:23.in terms of treaty changes then we will have a referendum. Why not now?
:22:24. > :22:30.I am probably the wrong person to ask because I argued and voted for a
:22:31. > :22:34.referendum on Maastricht because I thought that was a constitutional
:22:35. > :22:40.treaty. Anything that makes the Queen a citizen of the European
:22:41. > :22:46.Union surely has constitutional implications. Anyway, 20 years on we
:22:47. > :22:52.are where we are and we need to established common vocabulary. You
:22:53. > :22:56.talk about federalism. What do we mean? Most of the people operating
:22:57. > :23:03.in the European Parliament and the institution across the road, the
:23:04. > :23:08.Council of Europe, they mean by federalism decentralisation of
:23:09. > :23:13.powers, not a Brussels superstate but actually the kind of
:23:14. > :23:15.decentralisation that maintains national characteristics and pools
:23:16. > :23:25.resources and sovereignty where it makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now
:23:26. > :23:34.going to be in charge of the Brussels commission, he believes in
:23:35. > :23:40.a single EU reform policy, an EU wide minimum wage and EU wide
:23:41. > :23:44.taxes. You said this week that you liked the sound of Juncker
:23:45. > :23:50.federalism. Does that sound good to you? No, and I think the new
:23:51. > :23:54.president of the commission will be disappointed if he puts forward
:23:55. > :24:01.these views because although we only had Hungary voting with us, I think
:24:02. > :24:06.if you go to other countries, France, Poland, Scandinavia, they
:24:07. > :24:11.are not going to buy that kind of menu. What they mean by federalism
:24:12. > :24:21.is the continental concept, also the North American concept, that we can
:24:22. > :24:32.sit very happily... They have an army, a federal police force,
:24:33. > :24:34.federal taxation. Yes, but in terms of the political institutions which
:24:35. > :24:39.is what we are discussing here, you can have the supranational, the
:24:40. > :24:42.European level, whilst still having the very vibrant national, and
:24:43. > :24:48.indeed as we are practising in the United Kingdom the subnational. A
:24:49. > :24:55.very brief final word from you, Daniel. That is ultimately going to
:24:56. > :25:00.be the choice. The European Union is an evolving dynamic, we can see the
:25:01. > :25:05.direction it is going in. Do we want to be part of that? I suspect
:25:06. > :25:10.Charles Kennedy would have loved a referendum. I cannot help but notice
:25:11. > :25:26.his party is going downhill since he was running it. It is illegal to
:25:27. > :25:29.light up in the workplace, pubs and restaurants. Now the British Medical
:25:30. > :25:34.Association has voted to outlaw everywhere but not everybody at
:25:35. > :25:38.once. It would apply to anyone born after the year 2000. In a moment we
:25:39. > :25:43.will debate the merits of those plans but first he is Adam.
:25:44. > :25:51.There was a time when to be British was to be a smoker. 1948 was the
:25:52. > :25:55.year off peak fag with 82% of men smoking mainly cigarettes but it was
:25:56. > :26:00.a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a political prop to help with the
:26:01. > :26:04.hard-hitting interviews they did in those days. The advertisements make
:26:05. > :26:14.out pipe smokers to be more virile, more fascinating men than anybody
:26:15. > :26:25.else. Do you thought -- have that thought anywhere in your mind? No.
:26:26. > :26:30.It changed in 2006 when smoking in enclosed places was banned. I would
:26:31. > :26:35.rather be inside but unfortunately we have got to do what this
:26:36. > :26:41.Government tells us to do. I think it is good, it is calm and you can
:26:42. > :26:45.breathe. Research suggests it has improved the health of bar workers
:26:46. > :26:52.no end and reduced childhood asthma. Now just one in five adults is a
:26:53. > :26:56.smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on those newfangled e-cigarettes,
:26:57. > :27:01.smoking in cars and possibly the introduction of plain packaging
:27:02. > :27:05.There is still those who take pride in smoking and see it as a war on
:27:06. > :27:20.freedom. We're joined now by
:27:21. > :27:23.Dr Vivienne Nathanson from the British Medical Association
:27:24. > :27:28.who voted for a graduated ban on smoking at their conference last
:27:29. > :27:33.week, and Simon Clark They're here to go head-to-head
:27:34. > :27:41.There are plenty of things which are bad for our health, why single out
:27:42. > :27:50.cigarettes? We need some sugar in our diets but the fact is that we
:27:51. > :27:54.need to stop people smoking as children because if we can do that,
:27:55. > :27:59.the likelihood that they will start smoking is very small. In no
:28:00. > :28:04.circumstances is smoking good for you. There are lots of smokers who
:28:05. > :28:08.live long, healthy lives but we totally accept smoking is a risk to
:28:09. > :28:13.your health and adults have to make that decision, just as you make the
:28:14. > :28:18.decision about drinking alcohol eating fatty foods and drinking
:28:19. > :28:22.sugary drinks. This proposal is totally impractical. It will create
:28:23. > :28:27.a huge black market in cigarettes which will get bigger every year.
:28:28. > :28:31.They say this is about stopping children smoking but there is
:28:32. > :28:36.already a law in place that stops shopkeepers from selling cigarettes
:28:37. > :28:42.to children. This target adults so you could have the bizarre situation
:28:43. > :28:47.in the year 3035 for example where a 36-year-old can go into shops to buy
:28:48. > :28:52.cigarettes but if you are 35 you will be denied that, which is
:28:53. > :28:55.ludicrous. The point is that the younger you start smoking the more
:28:56. > :29:01.likely you will become heavily addicted. I take the point, but the
:29:02. > :29:07.point he is saying is that if this becomes law, down the road, if you
:29:08. > :29:11.go into shops to buy cigarettes you would have to take your birth
:29:12. > :29:15.certificate, wouldn't you? We have no idea how the legislation would be
:29:16. > :29:20.written but the key point is that if we can stop young people from
:29:21. > :29:25.starting to smoke, we will in 2 years have a whole group of people
:29:26. > :29:29.who have never smoked so you won't have that problem of people who are
:29:30. > :29:33.smokers and they are now in their 20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot
:29:34. > :29:38.of younger people who get cigarettes the way they currently get illegal
:29:39. > :29:43.drugs now. They are already getting cigarettes illegally and we have to
:29:44. > :29:50.deal with that. We have got to get better. The Government has not been
:29:51. > :29:58.able to stop it. We know this is going to kill 50%... When you are 15
:29:59. > :30:02.you think you will live for ever. Indeed but they also do it as
:30:03. > :30:07.rebellion and because they see adults and it is remarkably easy to
:30:08. > :30:11.buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is for individual choice, won't most
:30:12. > :30:16.people agree that if you could stop young people smoking, so that
:30:17. > :30:26.through the rest of their lives they never smoked, that would be worth
:30:27. > :30:30.doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds who already do that. Is it worth
:30:31. > :30:34.trying? When the government increased the age at which
:30:35. > :30:41.shopkeepers could sell from 16 to 18, we supported it. We don't
:30:42. > :30:44.support a ban on proxy purchasing, we support reasonable measures, but
:30:45. > :30:50.this is unreasonable. This proposal says a lot about the BMA, because
:30:51. > :30:54.this week the BMA also passed a motion to ban the use of E
:30:55. > :30:56.cigarettes in public places. There is no evidence that they are
:30:57. > :31:01.dangerous to health, so why are they doing that? They are becoming a
:31:02. > :31:04.temperance society. This is not about public health, it's an
:31:05. > :31:07.old-fashioned temperance society and they have to get their act together
:31:08. > :31:13.because they are bringing the medical profession into disrepute.
:31:14. > :31:17.We were having argument is about things that people buy large accept,
:31:18. > :31:21.smoking in bars or public places, but the real aim of the BMA was the
:31:22. > :31:27.total banning of cigarettes altogether. This would suggest that
:31:28. > :31:30.that was true to claim that. It s not about a ban, it's about a move
:31:31. > :31:35.to a country where nobody wants to smoke and no one is a smoker. But it
:31:36. > :31:39.would be illegal to smoke. It would be illegal to buy, not smoke, and
:31:40. > :31:45.there's a difference between two. So even if I am born in the year 2 00,
:31:46. > :31:52.it would still be illegal to smoke, just illegal to buy the cigarettes?
:31:53. > :31:55.Indeed. The point being that the habit of smoking is very strongly
:31:56. > :31:59.linked to your ability to buy, so that is why things like Price and
:32:00. > :32:05.availability and marketing are so important. People will flood across
:32:06. > :32:07.the Channel with the cigarettes One thing you will find is that
:32:08. > :32:10.throughout the world people is looking at -- people are looking at
:32:11. > :32:15.the same kind of measures, and different countries like Australia,
:32:16. > :32:18.they were the first with a standardised packaging. Other
:32:19. > :32:21.countries will follow, because all of us are facing the fact that we
:32:22. > :32:28.can't afford to pay for the tragedy. There will be people
:32:29. > :32:33.waiting to flood the market with cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks
:32:34. > :32:35.for both coming and going head-to-head.
:32:36. > :32:39."Unless we have more equal representation, our politics won't
:32:40. > :32:41.be half as good as it should be " So said David Cameron back in 2 09.
:32:42. > :32:44.So how's it going? Well, you can judge the quality
:32:45. > :32:47.of the politics for yourself, but we've been crunching
:32:48. > :32:49.the numbers to find out what parliament might look like after
:32:50. > :32:54.the next year's general election. Here's Giles.
:32:55. > :32:58.Politicians are elected to Parliament to represent their
:32:59. > :33:03.constituents, but the make-up of Parliament does not reflect society
:33:04. > :33:06.well at all the parties it. In 010 more women and ethnic minority
:33:07. > :33:15.candidates entered Westminster but not significantly more inner chamber
:33:16. > :33:21.still dominated by white males. Looking at the current make-up of
:33:22. > :33:26.the Commons, Labour has 83 female MPs, the Conservative have 47 women
:33:27. > :33:32.MPs, which is just over 47% -- and the Lib Dems have 12% of the
:33:33. > :33:35.parties. All of the parties have selected parliaments in those seats
:33:36. > :33:38.where existing MPs are retiring and to fight seats at the next
:33:39. > :33:41.election, and they've all been trying to up the number of women and
:33:42. > :33:46.ethnic minorities because discounts and can be capitalised on. A picture
:33:47. > :33:52.tells a thousand words. Look at the all-male front bench before us. And
:33:53. > :33:57.he says he wants to represent the whole country. Despite the jibe the
:33:58. > :33:58.Labour Party know they have a long way to go on the issue of being
:33:59. > :34:10.representative. So we way to go on the issue of being
:34:11. > :34:11.look at this particular area of lack of women and ethnic minorities.
:34:12. > :34:43.In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they
:34:44. > :34:49.got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 1%
:34:50. > :34:51.The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy
:34:52. > :34:53.at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most
:34:54. > :34:56.marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn
:34:57. > :34:59.In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected
:35:00. > :35:05.If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones
:35:06. > :35:09.they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time.
:35:10. > :35:12.The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won
:35:13. > :35:15.at the last election, if they manage that, they would have
:35:16. > :35:20.However all the indications are it could be
:35:21. > :35:24.a bad night for the Lib Dems, if they lost 20 seats, on a uniform
:35:25. > :35:29.swing it would leave them with just four women, 11% of the party.
:35:30. > :35:33.One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all
:35:34. > :35:36.options if it's female numbers go down in 2015, says Parliament is
:35:37. > :35:50.The bottom line is, if 50% of our population is not being looked at
:35:51. > :35:57.evenly, are we really using the best of our talent? And yes, women's life
:35:58. > :36:01.experiences are different. They are not superior, they are not inferior.
:36:02. > :36:03.They are different. But surely those life experiences need to be
:36:04. > :36:07.represented here at Westminster So that's the Parliamentary
:36:08. > :36:09.projection for gender, According to the last census
:36:10. > :36:14.in 2011, 13% of people in the UK Labour currently has 16 MPs from
:36:15. > :36:20.black, Asian or minority ethnic backgrounds or just over 6%, if they
:36:21. > :36:23.get their extra 68 seats that figure would go up to 26, 8% of their party
:36:24. > :36:28.were from BAME backgrounds. The Tories currently have 11 BAME
:36:29. > :36:34.candidates, or 4% of the party. If they get an extra 29 seats,
:36:35. > :36:38.that would mean 14 BAME MPs, The Liberal Democrats
:36:39. > :36:46.don't have any BAME MPs. If they manage to cling
:36:47. > :36:52.on to their current number of seats they would have two,
:36:53. > :36:55.giving them a proportion of 4%. If they lost
:36:56. > :36:57.their 20 most vulnerable seats, But even if you changed the mix
:36:58. > :37:07.of gender and ethnicity in Parliament would that solve
:37:08. > :37:09.the problem? Probably not. Only 10% of us have gone to
:37:10. > :37:13.a private fee paid school. A Quarter of all Mps went to Oxford
:37:14. > :37:21.or Cambridge. Only a fifth
:37:22. > :37:29.of us went to any university. There is a huge disillusionment with
:37:30. > :37:33.the political elite due to the fact that these people don't look like
:37:34. > :37:36.us. They don't speak like us, they don't have our experiences and they
:37:37. > :37:41.cannot communicate in a way we relate to. If you look at the
:37:42. > :37:44.turnout, at the moment, if you are an unskilled worker, you are 20
:37:45. > :37:47.points less likely to turn and vote than a middle-class professional and
:37:48. > :37:49.that is getting worse with single election.
:37:50. > :37:52.And that's the key, evidence does suggest that if a
:37:53. > :37:55.Party reflects the society it exists within, it is more likely to get
:37:56. > :38:04.It's just gone 11.35pm, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:38:05. > :38:07.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:08. > :38:11.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll have more from the panel.
:38:12. > :38:20.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:21. > :38:29.The Conservative blueprint for a northern global powerhouse,
:38:30. > :38:36.The announcement today, there is a certain amount of nervousness
:38:37. > :38:41.You can't immediately point to things which have helped restore the
:38:42. > :38:49.Joining us, the Labour MP for West Lancashire, Rosie Cooper,
:38:50. > :38:51.and the Conservative MP for Ribble Valley, Nigel Evans.
:38:52. > :38:56.Nigel, we haven't seen you since the court case which cleared
:38:57. > :39:02.How has it changed your lifd as an MP and as a politician?
:39:03. > :39:06.I thought I was caring before, but I am far more compassionate
:39:07. > :39:10.and understanding to anybodx and everybody who comes and sees me
:39:11. > :39:15.I'm far more patient than I ever was.
:39:16. > :39:20.What I've gone through I wotld not wish on my worst enemy, and
:39:21. > :39:27.I was looking, and when you go through one of these things,
:39:28. > :39:32.I was looking at Rebekah Brooks the other day and the look on hdr face.
:39:33. > :39:38.Going through a trial for whatever reason, it does have a huge impact,
:39:39. > :39:45.At the end of it, you can't just flip a switch
:39:46. > :39:50.It has emerged this week, Nigel,
:39:51. > :39:53.that some in your local party would like to deselect you.
:39:54. > :39:58.Why? I haven't the faintest idea.
:39:59. > :40:01.It would only be a small nulber if that is the case.
:40:02. > :40:04.Even if you have not gone through what I've gone throtgh,
:40:05. > :40:09.now and again, MPs find we're not flavour of the month with everybody.
:40:10. > :40:12.So I guess following what I have gone through,
:40:13. > :40:15.there would be one or two who may use that as an excuse, but
:40:16. > :40:22.The vast majority of people are giving me support
:40:23. > :40:29.One is Ribble Valley after the next election ` Tory.
:40:30. > :40:36.Number three, Prime Minister ` David Cameron.
:40:37. > :40:40.Some of this depends of course on your constituents.
:40:41. > :40:44.Let's have a listen to what some of them have to say.
:40:45. > :40:46.Personal life shouldn't come into it.
:40:47. > :40:50.He's a local MP, and he's not giving us a good name.
:40:51. > :40:54.I'm not judging him on his personal life.
:40:55. > :40:58.Mixed views, and it is true there is a lot of support for you
:40:59. > :41:05.Isn't it the reality that the trial showed issues in relation to
:41:06. > :41:11.alcohol, in relation to havhng sex with very young Westminster workers,
:41:12. > :41:16.and some of your constituents and party workers do feel that is
:41:17. > :41:21.But the vast majority of people as we have seen and you heard xourself,
:41:22. > :41:25.when I have been around Clitheroe, the vast majority believe that
:41:26. > :41:32.woe betide anybody who has their private life not just looked over
:41:33. > :41:35.with a microscope, but things thrown at you th`t you
:41:36. > :41:41.All I know is that 12 peopld looked at all of the evidence that was
:41:42. > :41:48.shown before them, and very quickly decided that I was not guilty.
:41:49. > :41:51.In fact, the vast majority of people I speak to who took an interest in
:41:52. > :41:55.the case said it should nevdr have come to court in the first place.
:41:56. > :41:59.The response I'm getting when I go around
:42:00. > :42:05.Rosie, you didn't get caught up in this, but how important hs it to
:42:06. > :42:11.It is a difficult job, and the local party will decide who
:42:12. > :42:14.the MP is, but as long as you have done a good job for your
:42:15. > :42:19.local constituents, they ard the ones who will elect you.
:42:20. > :42:23.This week, the Conservatives displayed their
:42:24. > :42:29.The Chancellor, George Osborne, visited the Manchester Science
:42:30. > :42:33.Museum to outline plans which could transform the rdgion
:42:34. > :43:11.The northern powerhouse will include high`speed rail between Leeds
:43:12. > :43:13.It takes around one hour to travel from Manchester to Ldeds
:43:14. > :43:19.But commuters welcome it, and business leaders in Manchester
:43:20. > :43:24.and Liverpool should not be shunted off the map.
:43:25. > :43:26.It is Manchester and Leeds, but you have Liverpool.
:43:27. > :43:29.It is a fascinating city whhch has an awful lot of regeneration
:43:30. > :44:59.and growth, so if you're gohng to do it, do it with Liverpool.
:45:00. > :45:01.money and more things for the regions.
:45:02. > :45:05.These will be set out in our manifesto.
:45:06. > :45:08.What we are putting on the table today is a big shift
:45:09. > :45:12.in terms of political power, in terms of science and universities,
:45:13. > :45:15.and in terms of transport to create a great northern powerhouse
:45:16. > :45:22.I'm glad you mentioned it, because some people will very much
:45:23. > :45:26.welcome the idea of the fast train, but still no timetable.
:45:27. > :45:31.What I would say is over the last four years, we havd put
:45:32. > :45:34.in place a long`term economhc plan that means this country is getting
:45:35. > :45:38.off its knees and can now afford to make these sort of investments.
:45:39. > :45:42.If you look at what we have done over the last four years, wd have
:45:43. > :45:44.put money into electrificathon, into building new motorways, and
:45:45. > :45:48.here we are with this great station in Manchester, ?44 million going
:45:49. > :45:56.Yes, all of these things will happen
:45:57. > :46:02.This great vision for better east`west links to link up our great
:46:03. > :46:07.cities, I think it could help to create a real economic powerhouse.
:46:08. > :46:10.It is a great vision we havd set out today, and very much supported
:46:11. > :46:13.by the city leaders, many of them different parties to me
:46:14. > :46:18.This is a cross`party, cross`country initiative that I think will make
:46:19. > :46:24.We are also joined by the L`bour leader of Manchester City Council.
:46:25. > :46:34.People have been talking for years about the economic benefits
:46:35. > :46:37.of making travel distances between our great northern cities a lot
:46:38. > :46:45.Indeed, I have been meeting with Northern leaders over sever`l
:46:46. > :46:51.months to draw together transport investment plans for the North.
:46:52. > :46:53.From now until 2030, the whole
:46:54. > :46:58.If we do that, that will be a step forward.
:46:59. > :47:05.It is making sure that in tdrms of any sort of work that yot have,
:47:06. > :47:08.a bigger available workforcd that can get close to market,
:47:09. > :47:12.businesses are able to conndct with each other, and it does havd to be
:47:13. > :47:18.Leeds has to take the whole corridor across from Liverpool to Hull, the
:47:19. > :47:22.two ports at either end, and has to go from Newcastle down to Sheffield.
:47:23. > :47:29.Do you think it will happen this time?
:47:30. > :47:32.The plan we put together, and it will take six months before
:47:33. > :47:35.we have it entirely costed with all of the economic evidence, btt we
:47:36. > :47:38.believe that it is affordable within the sorts of sums of money the
:47:39. > :47:42.government will have available over that period of time,
:47:43. > :47:46.and certainly compared to other schemes like Crossrail 2,
:47:47. > :47:55.I think it is a nod to northerners before the election
:47:56. > :48:06.Cameron and Osborne will not be around at the time.
:48:07. > :48:09.To be honest, really, how does it make a difference to us hn my
:48:10. > :48:14.We're talking about the North. We have no station.
:48:15. > :48:21.We are in the middle with diesel trains chugging around.
:48:22. > :48:25.Very soon, they will be going nowhere.
:48:26. > :48:29.It is all talking about it taking 30 minutes to go
:48:30. > :48:33.from Manchester to Liverpool, but the reality is if you lhve in
:48:34. > :48:43.one area and you were to go to the A, it is 20 minutes on thd bus.
:48:44. > :48:50.This is not about the big powerhouses, it has to be
:48:51. > :48:53.She is partly right, but a bit too negative.
:48:54. > :48:57.We know there is an issue, that London sucks in all of the loney,
:48:58. > :49:00.and I have always seen Manchester as Britain's second city `
:49:01. > :49:02.a magnet for the money coming into the North.
:49:03. > :49:05.Look at the transformation of this area.
:49:06. > :49:09.We just have to have the political will to do it.
:49:10. > :49:13.We need to join the dots as far as the northern great cities are
:49:14. > :49:16.concerned, but we have to m`ke absolutely certain we have `ccess to
:49:17. > :49:18.high`speed ourselves from M`nchester all the way into London, and through
:49:19. > :49:23.to the rest of Europe, and that is where the money is.
:49:24. > :49:26.It took a long time to come up with this plan.
:49:27. > :49:34.We also had to take over thd problem in 2010 of a massive deficit,
:49:35. > :49:43.There are equally difficult problems with finance.
:49:44. > :49:47.The economics are looking bdtter than they were in 2010, so let's
:49:48. > :49:52.make sure now that we don't forget the northern great cities, `nd the
:49:53. > :49:56.other thing which David Camdron was intimating is that we need to look
:49:57. > :49:59.at proper devolution to the cities as well,
:50:00. > :50:02.and that means money has to follow to ensure people like Richard have
:50:03. > :50:06.got the access to the funds himself in order to spend it in the way
:50:07. > :50:13.George Osborne and David Caleron won't be around, and I cert`inly
:50:14. > :50:21.We need long`distance transport High Speed 2, we need intercity
:50:22. > :50:24.transport between the northdrn cities, and we need local transport
:50:25. > :50:34.We need all of those, and they are all doable.
:50:35. > :50:37.Let's not give George Osborne and the Tories too much credit
:50:38. > :50:43.It is not a new plan, and what it is talking about is work that hs being
:50:44. > :50:45.done by local authorities in the north, and principally
:50:46. > :50:53.The truth is that the North West and the North is more than just
:50:54. > :50:58.My constituents have a right to be part of it.
:50:59. > :51:02.They worry about how they get to work.
:51:03. > :51:06.If the North of England becomes more prosperous, they will be part of it.
:51:07. > :51:18.How do they do it if they are excluded?
:51:19. > :51:20.The people of Clitheroe sometimes feel left out.
:51:21. > :51:22.We need to ensure that therd is proper roll`outs to Clitheroe
:51:23. > :51:30.Let me ask about the idea of regional mayors.
:51:31. > :51:41.I'm against imposing a London`style mayor on any city
:51:42. > :51:46.outside London because it is fundamentally a flawed systdm.
:51:47. > :51:50.There is a disconnect between the mayor's office
:51:51. > :51:55.What Cameron is talking about is greater powers
:51:56. > :52:02.We have developed, in Greatdr Manchester, a different moddl.
:52:03. > :52:06.Through the growth of Manchdster, we have a combined authority
:52:07. > :52:11.which brings all of the districts together around a common agdnda
:52:12. > :52:16.Unlike the London model, fotr different areas including Lhverpool
:52:17. > :52:22.I think we need to build on that, rather than have some imposdd
:52:23. > :52:26.solution on localities from Westminster.
:52:27. > :52:35.If I said "Fragoff", you cotld be offended, or head for thd polling
:52:36. > :52:39.In fact, Fragoff became one of our newest political parties
:52:40. > :52:43.when they won their first council seat last month near Southport.
:52:44. > :52:59.They are all about protecting the green belt
:53:00. > :53:02.Like cream teas and summer fairs, the green belt conjures up
:53:03. > :53:11.Here in Thornaby, which is lore green and more Middle England
:53:12. > :53:14.than most places, it has become a political hot topic, and created
:53:15. > :53:25.These are members of the Thornaby residents action group
:53:26. > :53:33.We decided to do green for the green belt, and white for concretd.
:53:34. > :53:39.Has this become your version of the Labour rosette?
:53:40. > :53:44.Maria is the group's councillor, elected
:53:45. > :53:50.I never wanted to be a politician or involved in politics.
:53:51. > :53:54.Green belt is so important to stop urban sprawl.
:53:55. > :53:56.A lot of the green belt is agricultural land, so
:53:57. > :54:02.Member Jan thought her views were permanent, thanks to the
:54:03. > :54:07.Until developers proposed building on these fields.
:54:08. > :54:14.We went around the whole pl`ce and the support was tremendous.
:54:15. > :54:17.They did not want building on green belt,
:54:18. > :54:26.They have an application to build herd, but
:54:27. > :54:31.a document all councils havd to draw up to say where futtre
:54:32. > :54:39.What is needed is affordable housing.
:54:40. > :54:43.The leader of the council stresses that is what they are trying to do
:54:44. > :54:48.In the last ten years, 90% of the houses we have btilt have
:54:49. > :54:53.The other 10% have been on non`green belt sites.
:54:54. > :54:55.Not one house has been built on the green belt.
:54:56. > :55:00.We have tried to build as mtch as we possibly can on non`green shtes
:55:01. > :55:02.But available brown field spots are running out
:55:03. > :55:08.The reality is there has to be some building on green belts bec`use we
:55:09. > :55:13.haven't got the land in the brown field areas we wotld like.
:55:14. > :55:16.They need to decide whether the most sustainable solution
:55:17. > :55:21.in their area is actually a rolling back of the green belt.
:55:22. > :55:25.They can replace that green belt on the outer boundary.
:55:26. > :55:28.The green belt is a something for the long`term
:55:29. > :55:31.rather than just nibbling away little bits of it here and there.
:55:32. > :55:34.But any attempts to shift the green belt could, Maria says,
:55:35. > :55:40.I think people across the country could do the sale,
:55:41. > :55:43.and stand up for their rights really, and stand up for thd
:55:44. > :55:49.Whether you view green belt land like this as holding back
:55:50. > :55:52.much`needed development or as a vital barrier holding back
:55:53. > :55:56.the concreting over of the countryside, it seems certahn that
:55:57. > :56:03.this issue will continue to have a growing hold on local polhtics.
:56:04. > :56:06.Stuart Pollock wading through some expensive crops there.
:56:07. > :56:10.Rosie, you have more green belt in your constituency than anywhere
:56:11. > :56:14.Where is the balance between keeping that and building homes
:56:15. > :56:18.The balance, I believe, will be in reflecting the whshes
:56:19. > :56:24.What you have now is a lot of people who are very very angry,
:56:25. > :56:27.because they have been promhsed localism, promised a voice.
:56:28. > :56:30.They have been promised their view will be heard.
:56:31. > :56:34.Yet, what we actually have, is a planning framework which is almost
:56:35. > :56:39.allowing aggressive developdrs to come in purely for financial
:56:40. > :56:44.profit who want to build in the green belt because it is easier
:56:45. > :56:47.According to the council, they have run out of brown field options.
:56:48. > :56:51.In West Lancs, the council completely
:56:52. > :56:54.in the consultation ignored the views of people for elector`l
:56:55. > :57:00.Councillors decided to take a whole area out
:57:01. > :57:04.of the consultation for electoral reasons, and people were very angry
:57:05. > :57:11.Is it your position they shouldn't build on the green belt?
:57:12. > :57:19.when you have exhausted the brown field sites, but you have to
:57:20. > :57:27.Let me tell you, people took part in that consultation.
:57:28. > :57:37.You will see more people eldcted on the basis that the government
:57:38. > :57:51.OK, Rosie, but I need to bring Nigel in.
:57:52. > :57:53.You have a big consultation coming up on similar issues.
:57:54. > :57:58.I understand the anger of everybody in the Ribble Valley
:57:59. > :58:02.who look at some of their villages and small towns and
:58:03. > :58:10.I was at a public meeting in Longridge, and I know
:58:11. > :58:14.the anger and frustration of people there who are not saying no to extra
:58:15. > :58:17.housing, but they are saying no to the amount of extra housing that is
:58:18. > :58:21.We have to ensure that as Rosie says,
:58:22. > :58:24.we are the guardians of this green belt land for future generations.
:58:25. > :58:30.Yet, Nigel, at the same timd, people are finding it difficult to
:58:31. > :58:38.That is why we have to get the right balance.
:58:39. > :58:48.People have to be more imaghnative about
:58:49. > :58:51.where housing has to go eventually , and that must be the decision
:58:52. > :59:00.What I got angry about in B`rrow, the local council said no to
:59:01. > :59:03.405 houses, it went to appe`l, and it was signed off on appeal
:59:04. > :59:06.Localism should mean that the decision rests with
:59:07. > :59:22.Let's look at what else has been going on. Standards of care and
:59:23. > :59:25.staff recruitment were among concerns as Morecambe Bay NHS Trust
:59:26. > :59:35.was placed into special measures. The care at Lancaster and B`rrow
:59:36. > :59:38.Inverness is not good enough. Plans for shale gas fracking were
:59:39. > :59:45.introduced. It amended its planning application. A review is underway
:59:46. > :59:48.into a ?6 million budget shortfall at traffic council after thd
:59:49. > :59:54.authorities underestimated the cost of caring for the elderly and
:59:55. > :59:57.honourable. Holmes on this hsland will be lost to the sea within 0
:59:58. > :00:02.years will stop the chief executive of borough council forecast that a
:00:03. > :00:07.report recommended nature should be left to take its course. And a
:00:08. > :00:11.country rented is on her wax to West Bank issue. Dolly Parton is helping
:00:12. > :00:16.to raise money for a librarx there in her skin to get children
:00:17. > :00:27.reading. Local MP Rosie Cooper met her to get the ball rolling. `` in
:00:28. > :00:32.her scheme. Dolly. How exciting Indeed. What is more exciting is the
:00:33. > :00:36.fact that children of West Bank issue will have the opportunity to
:00:37. > :00:40.get an age`appropriate book livid through their door from when they
:00:41. > :00:46.are born until five years of age so they literacy and ability to read,
:00:47. > :00:50.the opportunities they will have, we will increase aspiration and make a
:00:51. > :00:59.difference. They can sing along as well. Nigel, you met somebody as
:01:00. > :01:04.well. Yes, from simply red. I'm singly blue. But we can still raise
:01:05. > :01:08.a glass and chat about common interests, including Manchester
:01:09. > :01:12.United. Good to see you both enjoying yourselves and doing
:01:13. > :01:13.important work. Thank you vdry much. Now it is back to Italy.
:01:14. > :01:17.been problems elsewhere in Europe, but I take your point. Thanks to
:01:18. > :01:23.both of you today. Back to you, Andrew.
:01:24. > :01:25.Now, there have been some less-than-helpful remarks
:01:26. > :01:27.about the way the Labour party makes policy, and they've come
:01:28. > :01:32.from the man who is heading Labour's Policy Review, Jon Cruddas.
:01:33. > :01:36.In a speech to party activists he was recorded saying that,
:01:37. > :01:39."instrumentalised, cynical nuggets of policy to chime with our focus
:01:40. > :01:42.groups and our press strategies and our desire for a topline in terms of
:01:43. > :01:44.the 24 hour media cycle, dominate and crowd out any
:01:45. > :01:55.He added that Labour's election strategy was being hampered by a
:01:56. > :02:08.The shadow chancellor, Ed Balls was asked about what Mr Cruddas had
:02:09. > :02:17.I talked to him a couple of days ago, and he's not frustrated, he is
:02:18. > :02:24.excited about his policy agenda He is frustrated that one report of 250
:02:25. > :02:30.pages gets reduced down. So it's our fault? That is the way we live in
:02:31. > :02:34.the world in which we live, but we have big ideas about devolution
:02:35. > :02:38.long term infrastructure spending and new manufacturing policy, new
:02:39. > :02:44.investment in skills, big changes which, let's be honest, I'm really
:02:45. > :02:50.on George Osborne's agenda. How serious is this? It is Wimbledon, so
:02:51. > :02:54.let's call it an unforced error You go to the party speeches, and you
:02:55. > :02:58.don't know who is in the audience. There is no need for something as
:02:59. > :03:01.serious as this to happen. It's hugely serious because it speaks
:03:02. > :03:05.about something people have felt for a long time, that they have doled
:03:06. > :03:09.out little nuggets of policy but no overarching story. There was a quite
:03:10. > :03:13.saying the Ed Miliband has given as a shopping list, not a narrative.
:03:14. > :03:18.When people in the party say things that are true, it's very difficult
:03:19. > :03:21.for people to explain it away. Not sure Mr Miliband can win here. He
:03:22. > :03:25.was recently criticised for not having policies. Now he's being
:03:26. > :03:28.criticised for having too many. I think this line of attack is
:03:29. > :03:32.particularly wounding because he prides himself on being a politician
:03:33. > :03:38.of ideas. That is his unique selling point, and the weight that David
:03:39. > :03:43.Cameron's prime ministerial nature is his selling point. So it is
:03:44. > :03:48.wounding. If I was the Labour Party, before announcing any policy, I
:03:49. > :03:51.would ask can help fix us on the economy? It might be radicalised
:03:52. > :03:58.immolating on its own terms, but it's politically useless. -- radical
:03:59. > :04:01.and innovative on its own terms I don't think any member of the public
:04:02. > :04:04.does not think they are not radical enough or creative enough. If
:04:05. > :04:08.anything, it's the opposite. They are a bit nervous about what a
:04:09. > :04:11.Labour government could do and nervous about the economic
:04:12. > :04:16.reputation. Reassurance, caution, maybe a bit of timidity might be the
:04:17. > :04:21.notions that inform their policies or should inform their policies in
:04:22. > :04:25.night -- my view, not the opposite. I am worried for Jon Cruddas,
:04:26. > :04:29.because anyone who questions the Labour Party are part of the nexus
:04:30. > :04:33.of the banking industry who are terrified of a Labour victory. It's
:04:34. > :04:36.interesting that this goes to the heart of the debate in the Labour
:04:37. > :04:40.Party, at the highest levels, do they put a big offer to the British
:04:41. > :04:45.people, or a little off, John Cruddas offer, or Douglas Alexander
:04:46. > :04:51.offer? Ed Miliband says that his ideas about freezing energy prices
:04:52. > :04:53.and rent controls are a big offer, but his policy chief clearly has
:04:54. > :05:00.real concerns that they don't go far enough. How important a figure is
:05:01. > :05:04.John Cruddas in the project? He is hell of the -- head of the policy
:05:05. > :05:08.review and has a huge amount of power, and so him slagging off the
:05:09. > :05:13.policy review is a bad moment. He is trusted in that inner circle and the
:05:14. > :05:17.problem for Ed Miliband from the odd is that he has people with strong
:05:18. > :05:21.opinions, Maurice clasping is another, big thinkers, but they
:05:22. > :05:24.maybe don't have a precaution that a professional politician might have
:05:25. > :05:29.in terms of giving bland answers. So, David Cameron had to apologise
:05:30. > :05:31.after his former director of communications was convicted
:05:32. > :05:33.of phone hacking. David Cameron's other former friend,
:05:34. > :05:37.Rebekah Brooks, had a better day. At the same trial, she was cleared
:05:38. > :05:46.of all the charges against her. I take full responsibility for
:05:47. > :05:50.employing Andy Coulson. I did some on the basis of undertakings I was
:05:51. > :05:54.given by him about phone hacking and those turned out not to be the case.
:05:55. > :05:58.I always said that if they turned out to be wrong, I would make a full
:05:59. > :06:03.and frank apology, and I do that today. I am extremely sorry that I
:06:04. > :06:08.employed him. It was the wrong decision. I'm clear about that. When
:06:09. > :06:12.I was arrested it was in the middle of a maelstrom of controversy,
:06:13. > :06:18.politics and of comment. Some of that was there, but much of it was
:06:19. > :06:25.not, so I'm grateful to the jury for coming to that decision. Not been a
:06:26. > :06:30.great week for David Cameron. Andy Coulson found guilty, and another
:06:31. > :06:35.person who had worked in Downing Street is also charged on an
:06:36. > :06:39.unrelated issue. And he was 26- on the wrong end in Brussels, and there
:06:40. > :06:43.is a poll this morning which no one seems to be talking about which puts
:06:44. > :06:45.Labour nine points ahead. Before all that there was Dominic Cummings
:06:46. > :06:51.criticising the Downing Street operation is being shambolic. Is Mr
:06:52. > :06:54.Cameron's judgement becoming an issue? Yes, what often happens when
:06:55. > :06:58.one leader is under pressure for long enough, as Ed Miliband has been
:06:59. > :07:02.the six months, we get bored. We then switch the Gatling gun to the
:07:03. > :07:05.other guy. So David Cameron going into the Conference season might be
:07:06. > :07:08.the man under pressure. The whole Andy Coulson saga has raised
:07:09. > :07:12.questions about his judgement and those around him, but any political
:07:13. > :07:16.damage she was going to sustain over Andy Coulson and phone hacking was
:07:17. > :07:18.sustained years ago -- he was going. It was Brother beyond the
:07:19. > :07:24.date the News of the World was closed down three summers ago - it
:07:25. > :07:31.was probably on the date. As the hacking trial cut through to the
:07:32. > :07:34.general public? Or is it just as media and political obsessives? I am
:07:35. > :07:37.sure it has cut through in some way but it didn't necessarily happen in
:07:38. > :07:41.recent days, more likely in recent years. It was some time ago that
:07:42. > :07:45.Andy Coulson resigned in high profile circumstances. It has had a
:07:46. > :07:50.slow burning effect over a few years, and the Prime Minister fears
:07:51. > :07:55.the Big Bang. But there is one theme and words that unites this week with
:07:56. > :07:59.Juncker and Andy Coulson, and that is that the Prime Minister can be
:08:00. > :08:02.lackadaisical. He was lackadaisical in not asking big question is when
:08:03. > :08:05.there was a lot in the public domain about what had happened that the
:08:06. > :08:09.News of the World. And he was lackadaisical with Juncker. He made
:08:10. > :08:13.a calculation that Angela Merkel would support him and it turned out
:08:14. > :08:17.she couldn't. Maybe he needs to change. He was late in understanding
:08:18. > :08:24.what was happening in Germany when both the Christian Democrats, her
:08:25. > :08:27.party, wanted Juncker, and when the actual Murdoch press of Germany said
:08:28. > :08:32.that they wanted him as well. He never saw that. He only looks at one
:08:33. > :08:37.person in Germany, Angela Merkel, and it is a grand coalition, and the
:08:38. > :08:41.SDP felt strongly about it. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime
:08:42. > :08:44.Minister. He is, in a sense, an essay crisis Prime Minister. He s
:08:45. > :08:52.very good in an essay, and the SA gets a double first the essay. Is Ed
:08:53. > :08:54.Miliband right to be angry? He has John Cruddas attacking him, and that
:08:55. > :08:59.is the news leading in the Sunday Times, and has not been a good week
:09:00. > :09:00.the Prime Minister and in which Mr Miliband has a bigger lead in
:09:01. > :09:04.the Prime Minister and in which Mr polls than he has had some time so
:09:05. > :09:44.he must be wondering why they are having a go at him. He
:09:45. > :09:46.a radio four documentary to be broadcast this lunchtime.
:09:47. > :09:51.Here's former Education Secretary, David Blunkett on how the Prince
:09:52. > :11:11.had once attempted to influence his policy on schools.
:11:12. > :11:13.had once attempted to influence a speech. Prince Charles's views are
:11:14. > :11:17.interesting. He's not a straight down the light reactionary. He makes
:11:18. > :11:20.a left-wing case for rammer schools. There is an interview with him in
:11:21. > :11:24.the Financial Times in which his argument in favour for architectural
:11:25. > :11:29.development takes into account affordable housing in the wake which
:11:30. > :11:31.no one would have suspected. He has interesting views, but I'm not
:11:32. > :11:37.convinced on the point of principle whether someone is dashing his
:11:38. > :11:44.position should be speaking. Your former employer 's famously
:11:45. > :11:50.described him as the SDP king. You slightly feel sorry for him. He s 66
:11:51. > :11:55.and still an apprentice. He's in a difficult position. We know what the
:11:56. > :11:58.powers of the monarch are. They are to advise in courage and warned the
:11:59. > :12:01.Prime Minister of the day. These in the difficult position where the
:12:02. > :12:05.problem for him is that there is a line that isn't really defined, but
:12:06. > :12:10.you slightly feel he just gets a bit too close to it and possibly crosses
:12:11. > :12:15.that line with the lobbying that goes on. I think the worrying thing
:12:16. > :12:20.is that at some point he will become King and will he know that he has
:12:21. > :12:24.got to work within that framework? He is somebody that cannot win
:12:25. > :12:27.either. If he doesn't take an interest in public policy, he will
:12:28. > :12:31.be thought to be a bit of a waster, going round opening town halls, and
:12:32. > :12:36.when he does have an interest we think, hey, you are in the monarchy,
:12:37. > :12:41.stay out. There's an interesting parallel with first ladies who are
:12:42. > :12:45.encouraged to find a controversial charitable project. Michelle Obama
:12:46. > :12:49.has bought childhood obesity, and that is the standard thing.
:12:50. > :12:53.Everybody knows that that is a bad thing, but you are not offering
:12:54. > :12:57.solutions that are party political. I feel there must be a middle way
:12:58. > :12:59.with what he should be able to do about finding big causes he can
:13:00. > :13:04.complain about without getting stuck into lobbying ministers. Which can
:13:05. > :13:07.become a party political issue. He has had some influence on
:13:08. > :13:09.architecture, because the buildings we are putting up to date are better
:13:10. > :13:11.than the ones we used to put up The Daily Politics is on BBC 2
:13:12. > :13:16.at 11:00am We'll be back here
:13:17. > :13:20.at the same time next week. Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:21. > :13:25.it's the Sunday Politics.