:00:37. > :00:42.Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay
:00:43. > :00:45.As the campaign heads for the final furlong,
:00:46. > :00:49.what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result?
:00:50. > :00:53.The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live.
:00:54. > :00:56.David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday.
:00:57. > :00:58.Many of those tipped for promotion are women.
:00:59. > :01:03.So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or
:01:04. > :01:12.And don't know whether to support Germany or
:01:13. > :01:18.Fear not, we'll bring you our political guide to the World Cup.
:01:19. > :01:22.Reaction in this region to the public sector strikes.
:01:23. > :01:24.And university challenge ` the Muslim families facing a dilemma
:01:25. > :01:41.It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the
:01:42. > :01:46.Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis
:01:47. > :01:50.we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer.
:01:51. > :01:52.And for top political analysis you may
:01:53. > :01:56.as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick
:01:57. > :02:06.David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday.
:02:07. > :02:09.The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be
:02:10. > :02:12.in and who'll be out, though they don't really know.
:02:13. > :02:14.The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines,
:02:15. > :02:16.reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox
:02:17. > :02:20.is in line for a return to the political front line.
:02:21. > :02:27.But there's general agreement that women will do well and some
:02:28. > :02:30.of the old men in suits guard will do badly.
:02:31. > :02:40.Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme.
:02:41. > :02:46.It's good to make parliament more representative.
:02:47. > :02:50.But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create
:02:51. > :02:53.injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job.
:02:54. > :03:23.I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is
:03:24. > :03:31.going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not
:03:32. > :03:36.be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It
:03:37. > :03:39.is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a
:03:40. > :03:43.great interest in talking it up. media and the government have a
:03:44. > :03:47.great interest in talking it up The government says, haven't we
:03:48. > :05:18.refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't
:05:19. > :05:22.refreshed ourselves? Generally it about. I do not think he has allowed
:05:23. > :05:26.it to be all-male since that embarrassing image. I can understand
:05:27. > :05:29.the criticism made of this approach if it was the case that all the
:05:30. > :05:36.women being promoted by talentless but you have to be very harsh to
:05:37. > :05:50.look at them and say that they would have much less to offer than the
:05:51. > :05:55.likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be pro-feminist. The tests for David
:05:56. > :05:59.Cameron is that having raised expectations he has to give them
:06:00. > :06:04.substantial jobs. They have to be given departments to run or big
:06:05. > :06:06.portfolios to carry. If they are given media campaign positions in
:06:07. > :06:14.the run-up to the election it looks perfunctorily. He is under some
:06:15. > :06:20.trouble to perhaps suggest a female commissioner to the European Union
:06:21. > :06:26.Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has made clear that if he proposes a
:06:27. > :06:35.woman candidate they will get a better job. Saying they would like
:06:36. > :06:39.ten out of the 28 to be women. We are going to get the name of the
:06:40. > :06:47.British candidate at the same time as the reshuffle. The first
:06:48. > :06:52.face-to-face meeting, he will be able to put a name. There are other
:06:53. > :07:03.names in the frame. People like Archie Norman. That come from? His
:07:04. > :07:07.name is in the frame. There would be great scepticism of giving it to
:07:08. > :07:11.Andrew Lansley. People would think he was the man who mucked up the
:07:12. > :07:19.reform of the NHS. Who is it going to be? Either a woman or a man. I
:07:20. > :07:25.would not be surprised if they go for someone believe dynamic. Someone
:07:26. > :07:32.who would square the party. Would that not mean a by-election? It
:07:33. > :07:37.might. She is a high profile Eurosceptic. She is a very competent
:07:38. > :07:42.former banker. It would be the smart choice. I have no idea but my
:07:43. > :07:51.favourite rumour is Michael Howard. That had some legs for a while.
:07:52. > :07:55.The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street predict with confidence that the PM
:07:56. > :07:56.is going to promote more women in his cabinet reshuffle.
:07:57. > :08:00.The move can be seen as part of a move across British public life
:08:01. > :08:03.to do more to make our institutions less male and less white.
:08:04. > :08:05.But as the list of schemes to encourage diversity
:08:06. > :08:16.grows ever-longer, have we abandoned the idea of appointment by merit?
:08:17. > :08:24.Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for new trains. It does not get more
:08:25. > :08:27.macho than the Crossrail project. When Crossrail looked at the
:08:28. > :08:38.construction industry they realise that less than 20% was made up
:08:39. > :08:38.construction industry they realise women and they asked, can we fix it?
:08:39. > :08:44.They are trying with a recruitment drive that has brought in female
:08:45. > :08:49.engineers like this woman. She even has a tunnel named after her. Having
:08:50. > :08:52.more female engineers and construction brings a bigger range
:08:53. > :08:57.of opinions, a bigger range of ideas, more diversity, into the
:08:58. > :09:02.industry, and makes it better as a whole. It is the issue being
:09:03. > :09:06.grappled in another male dominated workplace, the Cabinet. There is
:09:07. > :09:10.about to be a reach shuffle and the rumour is David Cameron is going to
:09:11. > :09:15.promote a lot of female ministers. It was a lack of promotion that
:09:16. > :09:19.annoyed Harriet Harman this week. She claimed Gordon Brown did not
:09:20. > :09:24.make her Deputy Prime Minister because she was a woman. It was
:09:25. > :09:28.strange that in a hard-fought highly contested election to be deputy
:09:29. > :09:33.leader of the Labour Party, and having won against men in the
:09:34. > :09:36.Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy leader of the Labour Party I
:09:37. > :09:40.discovered that I was not to be appointed as Deputy Prime Minister.
:09:41. > :09:48.For women in this country, no matter how able they are, the matter how
:09:49. > :09:51.hard they might work, they are still not equal. There are initiatives to
:09:52. > :09:57.make the world feel more equal. In the City the EU wants a quarter for
:09:58. > :10:03.women in the boardroom but that goal of making 40% of the top floor
:10:04. > :10:09.female. At the BBC the boss of the TV division says no panel show
:10:10. > :10:13.should ever be all-male. In the ever glamorous movie business the British
:10:14. > :10:18.film Institute announced their new thematic system to get lottery
:10:19. > :10:25.funding projects improving diversity on screen and off and helping social
:10:26. > :10:30.mobility. Employers like Crossrail are not allowed to positively
:10:31. > :10:35.discriminate but under the quality act of 2010 if two candidate for a
:10:36. > :10:37.job are just as good you are allowed to base your decision on
:10:38. > :10:44.characteristics like race, sexuality and gender. Some worry it has
:10:45. > :10:51.chipped away at the idea of hiring on merit. A woman and three men
:10:52. > :10:55.going for a job, two of the men are really good and the woman is not
:10:56. > :11:02.quite as good but she gets the job anyway. That will create injustice,
:11:03. > :11:09.a feeling that she did not deserve the job, resentment. It does not
:11:10. > :11:16.advance equality in society at all. On this project they want to leave a
:11:17. > :11:20.concrete legacy of a more diverse construction industry. The question
:11:21. > :11:31.is, what tools do you use when it comes to the rest of society?
:11:32. > :11:33.I'm joined now by Yasmin Alibhai-Brown,
:11:34. > :11:35.a columnist for the Independent and by Munira Mirza, the deputy
:11:36. > :11:43.mayor of London responsible for education and culture.
:11:44. > :11:51.Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches though. Should David Cameron be
:11:52. > :11:58.promoting women? He is going to do it anyway. He should have a long
:11:59. > :12:02.time ago. It does not feel quite right that a few months before the
:12:03. > :12:07.election it would do the party a lot of good to be seen as a party
:12:08. > :12:14.properly reflective of the entire population. He should promote women
:12:15. > :12:17.because they are women? I think he should think about lots of different
:12:18. > :12:23.factors, whether the people he wants promote have proven themselves in
:12:24. > :12:26.their current reefs, whether they are good performers in the media,
:12:27. > :12:32.whether they represent different parts of the party, but the main
:12:33. > :12:37.principle is to promote on basis of merit. There are many talented women
:12:38. > :12:43.who fill that description. It should be that merit is the important thing
:12:44. > :12:44.rather than what you were born with. The thing about positive
:12:45. > :12:51.discrimination as it flies in the face of that kind of principle. You
:12:52. > :12:53.are shaking your head. We have always had positive discrimination.
:12:54. > :13:01.Men of a certain class have appointed in their own image because
:13:02. > :13:06.they feel most comfortable with that. We have had unspoken positive
:13:07. > :13:11.discrimination in this country and every other country throughout
:13:12. > :13:17.history. We are asking as women, all minorities, let us get into the same
:13:18. > :13:21.game. What do you say? You cannot solve the racism or the sexism of
:13:22. > :13:27.the past by more racism and sexism. It is not the past. There are
:13:28. > :13:32.complex reasons why a smaller number of women will appear in certain
:13:33. > :13:37.industries. It has a lot to do with childcare, education, expected. You
:13:38. > :13:42.cannot short cut that by setting a target. That is not how you achieve
:13:43. > :13:45.equality. Things are changing and more women are appearing in
:13:46. > :13:49.engineering and so on but it will take time. My worry is that these
:13:50. > :13:52.kinds of measures are counter-productive and undermine the
:13:53. > :13:53.perception that women can do it on their own merit rather
:13:54. > :13:58.counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it than
:13:59. > :14:02.because they need a helping hand. It is not a helping hand. It is to say,
:14:03. > :14:13.we are as good as men and these hidden barriers. Dot. Either they
:14:14. > :14:15.are not as good or they do not want it, which is just how we persuade
:14:16. > :14:20.are not as good or they do not want it, which ourselves that it is not
:14:21. > :14:26.happening, or there are barriers. How we judge meritocracy is at the
:14:27. > :14:33.heart of it. Are lots of industries won there are not that many women,
:14:34. > :14:38.such as engineering. We need more engineers generally. I think it is
:14:39. > :14:46.fine to try to encourage more women to study that subject. By setting a
:14:47. > :14:54.target you put pressure on an organisation. You tried to ignore
:14:55. > :15:17.the complex reasons why women do not go into those sectors. I think an
:15:18. > :15:23.all-female short list achieved miracle in Parliament. This is
:15:24. > :15:27.following up from having an injection of women coming up because
:15:28. > :15:34.the system was changed and a large percentage of women went into
:15:35. > :15:41.Parliament under the all-female short list were brilliant, so why
:15:42. > :15:47.not? So if the Prime Minister is mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has
:15:48. > :15:56.to be female and vice versa? Yes, absolutely, 50-50. We need to
:15:57. > :16:03.reflect the population. If we want to play this as a symbolic gesture,
:16:04. > :16:07.ideally we should have one of each. Why should a man get the job if you
:16:08. > :16:16.have a great female prime minister and a great female Deputy Prime
:16:17. > :16:24.Minister? I personally wouldn't mind this. I hear the disgruntled man and
:16:25. > :16:30.I want to come -- them to come with us. You're choosing people on the
:16:31. > :16:36.basis of traits they were born with. Are there too many Indian
:16:37. > :16:41.doctors in the NHS? I would argue not. Given that we tend to have male
:16:42. > :16:45.prime ministers rather than female ones, and we don't see another
:16:46. > :16:55.female one coming down the pipe very quickly... In the time before women
:16:56. > :16:59.short lists by the way. If you had a male prime minister with a female
:17:00. > :17:06.Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that give some balance? Why women? Why
:17:07. > :17:11.not working class person, which group do you prioritise? I would go
:17:12. > :17:15.with you that we need something fundamental to change. This idea
:17:16. > :17:19.that what we have now is a reflection of a genuine meritocracy
:17:20. > :17:22.is highly questionable. I would argue that when you look at the
:17:23. > :17:24.statistics things are changing. argue that when you look at the
:17:25. > :17:29.statistics things There are more women appearing in parts of public
:17:30. > :17:36.life, that is a long-term trend, but if you are trying to appoint people
:17:37. > :17:40.on what they were born with... That is not the only reason but it is an
:17:41. > :17:46.additional reason. She has to be able to do the job, obviously. I am
:17:47. > :17:50.saying the policy of hazard to discrimination explicitly state that
:17:51. > :17:55.you should choose somebody who is female because they are female. At
:17:56. > :18:00.the moment there is already enough suspicion about women who are
:18:01. > :18:05.successful to get to the senior position and if you institutionalise
:18:06. > :18:11.it you reinforce that suspicion. Harriet Harman is still complaining
:18:12. > :18:15.women are not being treated fairly. I think the policy reinforces the
:18:16. > :18:21.prejudice that women are not getting there because they are treated on
:18:22. > :18:25.the same basis. Although you may not want to have the all-female short
:18:26. > :18:30.list forever, wasn't it the kind of shock to the system that made a
:18:31. > :18:38.visible change in female representation, which the Tory side
:18:39. > :18:43.hasn't got? Of course it will work short-term but longer term it has a
:18:44. > :18:47.very degrading effect on the principle of equality and the fact
:18:48. > :18:51.Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't treated equally, whether it is true
:18:52. > :19:00.or not, the perception is still there. A number of women find this
:19:01. > :19:05.position must be reserved for a woman lying patronising, and
:19:06. > :19:13.speaking of patronising women, you spoken your Independent column, she
:19:14. > :19:18.presses all of the buttons for white people... Was that patronising and
:19:19. > :19:24.offensive? Probably. I wrote it because I felt that at the time but
:19:25. > :19:30.the point is that I was a token when I was appointed. The paper brought
:19:31. > :19:35.me in because I was a woman and I was a muslin or whatever. You are
:19:36. > :19:49.not writing about yourself. I was writing... It doesn't mean you don't
:19:50. > :19:57.criticise other women. We absolutely have to be tough, Manira is tough
:19:58. > :20:02.and so am I. Do you want to take back what you wrote? No. Do you
:20:03. > :20:10.really think positive discrimination has gone too far? I think there is
:20:11. > :20:15.already a suspicion out there that in certain sectors women are being
:20:16. > :20:19.promoted for the wrong reasons or ethnic minorities are being promoted
:20:20. > :20:24.for the wrong reasons. That is a shame and my worry is that by tying
:20:25. > :20:27.funding to your ethnicity or your gender, by saying you will get a
:20:28. > :20:29.promotion if you check that box, gender, by saying you will get a
:20:30. > :20:31.promotion if you check that box but promotion if you check that box, but
:20:32. > :20:42.you feel that resentment and prejudice and undermine the case for
:20:43. > :20:48.inequality. I wanted to be treated equally, because I am capable of
:20:49. > :20:56.doing that job. Only two months to go before Scotland takes its biggest
:20:57. > :21:01.constitutional decision in 300 years - should it quit or stay with the
:21:02. > :21:06.UK? For some in Scotland campaign has been going on forever. What has
:21:07. > :21:12.been the impact on the campaign to date?
:21:13. > :21:17.Alex Salmond says Scotland would remain part of the European Union
:21:18. > :21:22.with sterling as its currency in a monetary union with the rest of the
:21:23. > :21:28.UK, but he has also promised more public spending, increased child
:21:29. > :21:35.care provision and free personal care for the elderly. The SNP claims
:21:36. > :21:41.it would leave people better off by ?1000 though that partly depends on
:21:42. > :21:47.the price of oil. With the Better Together arguing against
:21:48. > :21:51.independence, it has naturally been attacking the SNP on all fronts.
:21:52. > :21:58.George Osborne says there will be no monetary union. President Barroso
:21:59. > :22:03.told the BBC it would be extremely difficult for Scotland to join the
:22:04. > :22:17.EU after a yes vote. His successor this week said he agreed. Unions
:22:18. > :22:24.claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by being part of the UK. A poll this
:22:25. > :22:31.morning shows a significant lead of 57% for the no campaign, leaving the
:22:32. > :22:36.SNP to claim it will go their way in the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon,
:22:37. > :22:40.the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, joins me now. You want an
:22:41. > :22:47.independent Scotland to keep the pound, stay in NATO, stay in the
:22:48. > :22:52.EU, Scotland already has all of that but you cannot guarantee it would
:22:53. > :22:59.have any of it in an independent Scotland, why take the risk? All of
:23:00. > :23:02.these things should be the case because they are in the best
:23:03. > :23:08.interests of Scotland and the rest of the UK but we want the powers to
:23:09. > :23:14.enable us to grow our economy faster, to be productive, and
:23:15. > :23:19.overtime increased the prosperity of people living in Scotland. We also
:23:20. > :23:25.want powers over our social security system so that we can create a
:23:26. > :23:29.system that meets our needs, one that also has a safety net for the
:23:30. > :23:36.most vulnerable people in our society. Independence is about
:23:37. > :23:40.letting us decide our own priorities. You didn't answer my
:23:41. > :23:44.question, you cannot guarantee you would be able to keep the pound
:23:45. > :23:50.within a monetary union, stay in NATO and the EU, you cannot
:23:51. > :23:55.guarantee you could produce any of these things, correct? I would argue
:23:56. > :24:00.that we can because these things are also in the interest of the rest of
:24:01. > :24:05.the UK. No country can be prevented from using the pound, I suggest we
:24:06. > :24:10.use that within a formal monetary union. We have had the UK minister
:24:11. > :24:15.quoted in the Guardian saying the position of the UK Government right
:24:16. > :24:19.now is one based on campaign rhetoric and following a yes vote,
:24:20. > :24:27.of course there would be a currency union. Who is that minister? The
:24:28. > :24:32.Minister is unnamed, but nevertheless that story in the
:24:33. > :24:37.Guardian was a solid one and not substantially denied. So you are
:24:38. > :24:46.basing your monetary policy on one on named minister in one story?
:24:47. > :24:51.Basing it on Common sense because monetary union would be in the best
:24:52. > :24:55.interests for Scotland but also overwhelmingly in the interests of
:24:56. > :25:00.the rest of the UK, given their trading relationship with Scotland
:25:01. > :25:08.and the contribution Scotland's exports make. We are having a very
:25:09. > :25:19.good debate and the UK Government and the no campaign, and this is not
:25:20. > :25:25.a criticism, want to talk up in -- uncertainty to make people feel
:25:26. > :25:29.scared, but after independence there will be constructed process of
:25:30. > :25:31.negotiation. Let's stick with the monetary union because most
:25:32. > :25:36.economists agree it would be very good for an independent Scotland to
:25:37. > :25:41.have a monetary union but George Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander
:25:42. > :25:47.are unequivocal, they say you won't get it. You claim they are bluffing
:25:48. > :25:51.but again you cannot guarantee that so why the risk? I would say the
:25:52. > :25:55.benefits of independence are substantial but I would also say to
:25:56. > :25:59.George Osborne and his counterparts in the other parties that it would
:26:00. > :26:05.be a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK
:26:06. > :26:07.that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of half
:26:08. > :26:52.a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of
:26:53. > :26:55.a very brave Chancellor that says to and one said it could even be
:26:56. > :27:52.impossible, you dismissed him because he was standing down, but
:27:53. > :27:57.impossible, you dismissed him still says it will be anything but a
:27:58. > :28:02.seamless transition. He said you could not join the European Union by
:28:03. > :28:16.sending a letter, that is not our proposal. We set down a robust
:28:17. > :28:20.proposal and the timescale we think is reasonable under these
:28:21. > :28:26.circumstances. There are many nationals of other states living in
:28:27. > :28:29.Scotland right now, if we were to be outside of the European Union for
:28:30. > :28:34.any period of time, something the current treaty doesn't even provide
:28:35. > :28:38.for, they would lose their right to stay here. The interests of Scotland
:28:39. > :28:43.and the interests of European Union are in favour of a seamless
:28:44. > :28:45.transition. It comes down to common sense and people in Scotland will
:28:46. > :28:48.make sense and people in Scotland will
:28:49. > :28:54.their own judgement on who is talking the common-sense. What about
:28:55. > :29:00.NATO, two years ago you told Newsnight the SNP's position is that
:29:01. > :29:05.we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a democratic debate, we looked at
:29:06. > :29:08.whether it would be in the interests of an independent Scotland, which
:29:09. > :29:17.forms a significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic and
:29:18. > :29:19.the party changed its mind. It did so in a thoroughly democratic way.
:29:20. > :29:28.That is the nature of democracy. That is the nature of democracy
:29:29. > :29:39.Would you accept the protection of the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is
:29:40. > :29:47.no doubt the SNP's position is that we do not want nuclear weapons in
:29:48. > :29:50.Scotland. That is not what I asked. The world rid themselves of nuclear
:29:51. > :29:55.weapons. One of the interesting point is of the 28 member countries
:29:56. > :30:00.of Natal 25 do not have nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland...
:30:01. > :30:11.I asked if you would accept the nuclear umbrella. The key feature of
:30:12. > :30:18.NATO's military dog train is now clear shrike. We would accept the
:30:19. > :30:24.basis of which NATO is founded but we would argue two things. We want
:30:25. > :30:28.Trident removed from Scotland rather than have a situation where might we
:30:29. > :30:33.are spending ?100 billion over the next generation replacing Trident
:30:34. > :30:38.and we would argue within the international community that the
:30:39. > :30:42.world should move much more quickly to rid itself of nuclear weapons.
:30:43. > :30:46.That is the principal position and won the SNP has held consistently
:30:47. > :30:52.for many years. You would get rid of one of the key parts of the NATO
:30:53. > :30:57.deterrent based in Scotland. You would kick that out. You would not
:30:58. > :31:02.accept all of the club rules because you do not like the idea of nuclear.
:31:03. > :31:07.Why would they like a member like you in? Because Scotland is a
:31:08. > :31:13.significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic. You do not
:31:14. > :31:18.subscribe to the rules. 25 of the member states of NATO are
:31:19. > :31:26.non-nuclear members. You are saying you do not follow the doctrine. NATO
:31:27. > :31:29.has said it wants to move away from reliance on nuclear weapons. An
:31:30. > :31:34.independent Scotland would be entering the majority mainstream of
:31:35. > :31:40.NATO as a country that did not have nuclear weapons. By leading by
:31:41. > :31:44.example our moral authority and encouraging others to do likewise
:31:45. > :31:49.would be increased. Money and oil, the finance minister has said that
:31:50. > :31:52.an independent Scotland would increase public spending by 3% a
:31:53. > :31:57.year. He would pay for that by borrowing. Your First Minister says
:31:58. > :32:03.he is going to stash money in an oil fund. You're going to borrow and
:32:04. > :32:10.save. How does that work? There are two points. Firstly in terms of the
:32:11. > :32:15.outlook for finances and what is one of the central debates of this
:32:16. > :32:19.referendum campaign, austerity that we know will continue if we stay as
:32:20. > :32:24.part of the Westminster system versus prosperity. The economy can
:32:25. > :32:28.afford a higher level of increase in public spending while we continue to
:32:29. > :32:34.have deficit levels at a sustainable level. What is the point of
:32:35. > :32:39.borrowing and saving at the same time? People who have a mortgage and
:32:40. > :32:45.the savings account would not themselves what the wisdom of that
:32:46. > :32:48.is. This is based on recommendations of our expert fiscal Commission that
:32:49. > :32:54.as borrowing reduces to sustainable levels it makes sense to start
:32:55. > :33:01.saving a proportion of our oil wealth. In Norway, which has many
:33:02. > :33:06.similarities to Scotland, they have an oil fund worth ?500 billion.
:33:07. > :33:11.Scotland is part of the Westminster system is sitting on a share of UK
:33:12. > :33:15.debt. We can continue to allow our oil wealth, our vast oil wealth,
:33:16. > :33:17.debt. We can continue to allow our oil wealth, our vast oil wealth to
:33:18. > :33:21.be mismanaged or we can decide we are going to manage that resource
:33:22. > :33:28.better in the years to come. Your figures do not add up unless you are
:33:29. > :33:31.about oil prices and revenue and you have been consistently wrong in your
:33:32. > :33:38.predictions. Last year you forecast that revenues would be the .7
:33:39. > :33:46.billion more than they actually work -- 3.7 billion. The cost of the
:33:47. > :33:50.Scottish school system gone. There were particular reasons for that in
:33:51. > :33:54.terms of interruption to production and bigger levels of investment.
:33:55. > :34:01.Used ill have to find the money Let me explain. They are based on robust
:34:02. > :34:04.assumptions, firstly a production estimates that is in line with the
:34:05. > :34:08.estimates of the oil and gas industry. Use of figures that are
:34:09. > :34:16.based on production of 10 billion barrels of oil. Oil and gas has been
:34:17. > :34:22.wrong as well. It is 24 billion left to be recovered. That is what is in
:34:23. > :34:28.the UK Government's oil and gas strategy so production in line with
:34:29. > :34:31.industry estimates and an oil price of $110 per barrel which is flat in
:34:32. > :34:39.cash terms would be a real terms reduction. The Department of energy
:34:40. > :34:43.is estimating $128 per barrel so our estimate compared to that is
:34:44. > :34:50.cautious. These are robust estimates based on robust assumptions. Except
:34:51. > :34:55.they have been wrong. Finally, we hear a lot from you and your fellow
:34:56. > :35:00.nationalists, you want a Scandinavian style social democracy,
:35:01. > :35:04.you know how to spend the money but you never tell us about social
:35:05. > :35:08.democratic levels of taxation. Also should grizzlies have higher levels
:35:09. > :35:15.of tax in Scotland does at the moment -- all social grizzlies. I
:35:16. > :35:21.want a Scottish style of social democracy. Free education, free
:35:22. > :35:26.medicines and balancing the books every single year. We want to get
:35:27. > :35:31.more people into work in Scotland, raise the level of distribution in
:35:32. > :35:33.the Labour market and make the economy more productive so we are
:35:34. > :35:39.raising the overall tax revenue Over the last 33 years we have
:35:40. > :35:47.generated more taxpayer head of population than is the case and the
:35:48. > :35:51.rest of the UK. Those last 33 years, some of those years oil prices would
:35:52. > :35:55.have been high and in others they would have been law but we take
:35:56. > :35:59.different decisions. A report showed that if we go as part of the
:36:00. > :36:06.Westminster system down the plate -- route of replacing Trident then the
:36:07. > :36:12.cost will be as high as ?4 billion every year. Our share of that is the
:36:13. > :36:16.hundred million pounds a year. Let us get access to our own resources
:36:17. > :36:20.so we can make different and better decisions about how to spend the
:36:21. > :36:25.resources we have. You are promising Scandinavian style social democratic
:36:26. > :36:30.levels of public spending but you say you will not need a top rate of
:36:31. > :36:39.tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia has, that all 25%, which is what
:36:40. > :36:43.Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You are going to have the spending but
:36:44. > :36:49.none of the taxes that make it possible in Scandinavia. For
:36:50. > :36:55.mischievous reasons you are met -- misrepresenting what I am saying.
:36:56. > :36:59.The Scottish economy can afford it and we want to generate more wealth
:37:00. > :37:04.in our economy. We want to use the existing resources Scotland has. We
:37:05. > :37:09.are the 14th richest country in the world in terms of what we produce.
:37:10. > :37:13.We do not want to be wasting resources. We want to be spending
:37:14. > :37:17.resources on the things that other priority for the people of Scotland.
:37:18. > :37:21.These are the benefits and the opportunities really get if we take
:37:22. > :37:33.the opportunity of voting yes and becoming independent.
:37:34. > :38:17.This is a week in which we have had public sector strikes. Andrdw, how
:38:18. > :38:20.This is a week in which we have had public sector strikes.
:38:21. > :38:22.Andrew, how disruptive were they in your constituency?
:38:23. > :38:24.I've had very few constituents claiming disruption to
:38:25. > :38:26.There is a lot of discussion nationally about
:38:27. > :38:31.Unions are claiming one figure but I think the actual number was
:38:32. > :38:34.Are they running out of steam do you think, Bill?
:38:35. > :38:38.I think that the people who went on strike on Thursday feel thex have
:38:39. > :38:41.absolutely no choice but to protest against what the Government is doing
:38:42. > :38:45.to them and they have had enough of the way they've been tre`ted
:38:46. > :38:47.Many schools, libraries and leisure centres were
:38:48. > :38:51.closed this week as thousands of public sector workers across
:38:52. > :38:56.Unions say millions of workers are worse off under this Governlent
:38:57. > :39:03.They gathered together to protest here in Preston.
:39:04. > :39:07.In Liverpool, Chester, Manchester and across the region,
:39:08. > :39:13.council staff, health workers, civil servants,
:39:14. > :39:16.teachers and firefighters picketing outside their places of work,
:39:17. > :39:21.marching outside their high streets, unhappy with their places of work.
:39:22. > :39:26.After years of a pay freeze, the Government's latest offer is 1%
:39:27. > :39:30.I am very committed to my job and helping the children learn
:39:31. > :39:38.and yet I do not feel this hs reflected in my pay.
:39:39. > :39:41.The worst of the cuts in local Government are going to
:39:42. > :39:44.come in the next two or three years and it is going to absolutely
:39:45. > :39:50.For the low`paid workers that represent
:39:51. > :39:54.the council, the canteen workers, the cleaners and also women.
:39:55. > :39:57.These are the biggest strikes we've seen
:39:58. > :40:04.And for the workers here in Preston, marching through the city cdntre,
:40:05. > :40:08.It is a message to the Government but also to the Labour leader
:40:09. > :40:11.Ed Miliband who, in the past, has been reluctant to discuss
:40:12. > :40:14.Do you think the strike acthon will make any difference?
:40:15. > :40:18.We want to get the Government to listen.
:40:19. > :40:22.At the end of the day, there are hundreds of people here who are all
:40:23. > :40:25.protesting about the fact that the Government aren't engaging hn talks.
:40:26. > :40:28.Talks we've been trying to negotiate with someone who is not prepared to
:40:29. > :40:31.negotiate, so I want the Government to listen.
:40:32. > :40:36.We are not paying for the mhstakes of the rich in the city of London.
:40:37. > :40:40.But these strikes have divided public opinion.
:40:41. > :40:42.The economic climate being what it is,
:40:43. > :40:50.I think people should be not totally subservient but grateful for a job.
:40:51. > :40:52.They're not getting enough pay for the job that they do
:40:53. > :40:59.They've done it once before and didn't get anywhere.
:41:00. > :41:02.Are they going to get anywhere this time?
:41:03. > :41:06.A local Conservative is sympathetic to concerns over low pay but says
:41:07. > :41:12.There is an assumption now we get an annual rise which
:41:13. > :41:16.That doesn't happen and can't always happen.
:41:17. > :41:18.All I'm saying is what?s affordable and, in certain circumstances,
:41:19. > :41:24.For those involved in the strikes, there is great frustration.
:41:25. > :41:28.They may want a better wage, but the Government is standing firm.
:41:29. > :41:34.This will be a hot topic in the run`up to the general election.
:41:35. > :41:35.And we're also joined by Avis Gilmore,
:41:36. > :41:38.the North West Regional Secretary for the National Union of Tdachers.
:41:39. > :41:41.What was the objective of the strikes?
:41:42. > :41:47.They were sheer frustration from workers across the public sector to
:41:48. > :41:52.the fact that this Government is importing some horrendous pay
:41:53. > :42:02.freezes and caps, trying to decimate the working conditions of people in
:42:03. > :42:05.the public sector and, in otr view, destroy our services as well.
:42:06. > :42:08.The people who work in those services aren't prepared to
:42:09. > :42:10.What are you trying to get out of striking?
:42:11. > :42:13.Some sensible dialogue with the Government.
:42:14. > :42:19.We have had some talks with some officials from the National Union
:42:20. > :42:22.of Teachers' point of view with officials
:42:23. > :42:25.in the Department of Educathon, but they have only been allowed to talk
:42:26. > :42:28.to us about how the Government's policies are implemented.
:42:29. > :42:31.We want to talk to Michael Gove himself about the policies.
:42:32. > :42:35.In terms of the impact of the strikes,
:42:36. > :42:38.in no way are you any closer to getting more pay as a result.
:42:39. > :42:47.That's how strongly our members feel, that they are
:42:48. > :42:52.It's how strongly some of them feel, isn't it?
:42:53. > :42:54.Because your strike mandate was two years ago and, in fact,
:42:55. > :43:03.In fact, when we balloted two years ago, we got 40% responding
:43:04. > :43:05.and that is significantly more than the Government's mandate
:43:06. > :43:18.It is significantly more th`n the ballots for the Mayor of London
:43:19. > :43:21.and the Police Commission, so we think it is quite accdptable.
:43:22. > :43:43.The Prime Minister is saying they are considering for the legislation
:43:44. > :43:46.`` further legislation, so it may be impossible to hold a strike unless
:43:47. > :43:50.In a way, you are in a worse position.
:43:51. > :43:54.I think it would be very difficult for the Government to bring that in.
:43:55. > :43:56.I think the working people of this country know that
:43:57. > :43:59.the only power they have is that when they are so frustrated they are
:44:00. > :44:03.If that legislation comes in for trade union ballots,
:44:04. > :44:06.surely it has to come in for other ballots as well.
:44:07. > :44:08.Andrew Bingham, how much more pay do you want public
:44:09. > :44:12.It's a question of what is affordable.
:44:13. > :44:13.We inherited a dreadful financial situathon
:44:14. > :44:17.and we have to cut, we can't afford to keep giving big pay rises.
:44:18. > :44:20.I looked at the strikes and what struck me, and I come from `
:44:21. > :44:24.background in the private sector and I've had to go a month with no pay
:44:25. > :44:27.sometimes, I look at people who have had to make childcare arrangements
:44:28. > :44:29.and take the day off themselves because teachers have
:44:30. > :44:37.Yet these people are having to make childcare arrangements for people
:44:38. > :44:45.The reality is that, since you guys came into Government,
:44:46. > :44:52.public pay, taking inflation into account, is down by 9%, and you're
:44:53. > :45:00.No, what I'm saying is that we can only afford to pay what we've got.
:45:01. > :45:05.Tax`free threshold has risen, so people can take more
:45:06. > :45:13.I'm sorry to be harsh about it but the Government inherited
:45:14. > :45:18.a huge deficit and it has to be brought under control.
:45:19. > :45:22.It might be better if your economic plans were on target.
:45:23. > :45:26.You said you were going to balance books by the end of this Parliament.
:45:27. > :45:28.That hasn't happened so public sector workers are going to have
:45:29. > :45:43.Many private`sector workers in my constituency have had waged
:45:44. > :45:48.To come back to another point, if we get everyone 5% or 6%,
:45:49. > :46:11.I think people would have more sympathy for what Andrew is saying
:46:12. > :46:14.if the Government hadn't looked after some of the wealthiest people
:46:15. > :46:17.society by giving a tax cut to the people earning over ?150,000 a year.
:46:18. > :46:20.Not just 9%, some have seen their paid for
:46:21. > :46:23.by 15% or more, especially with the changes in pension arrangemdnts
:46:24. > :46:26.Public sector workers think they have been under attack and not
:46:27. > :46:33.Teachers tell me that their working day has becomd longer
:46:34. > :46:37.and longer in the last four years because of the changes.
:46:38. > :46:46.I think it is very understandable why people go on strike
:46:47. > :46:49.when they feel they have no other choice and the Government will not
:46:50. > :46:54.There are changes constantlx going on so I think it is
:46:55. > :46:56.entirely understandable people choose to go on strike.
:46:57. > :47:11.I actually think the people on strike don't want to be
:47:12. > :47:16.The only people who want to see strikes are the Government because
:47:17. > :47:18.they think it puts hard`working people in the public sector...
:47:19. > :47:31.Ed Miliband has said nobody wants to see strikes,
:47:32. > :47:40.He quite clearly said that nobody wants to see strikes,
:47:41. > :47:43.but what is important is that we understand why they are happening.
:47:44. > :47:53.They are happening because people feel they have no choice
:47:54. > :47:57.Avis, would you be better off under Labour?
:47:58. > :47:59.We would like to see which of the Government is in powdr
:48:00. > :48:07.talking to us on a reasonable level and listening to the people.
:48:08. > :48:10.Where public sector workers are in the position where the lowest paid
:48:11. > :48:18.are having to go to food banks and the salary isn't reaching n`tional
:48:19. > :49:01.18 year`old Saffiyah wants to study medicine at university, inctrring
:49:02. > :49:09.With family unable to find the fees, she's resigned to being charged
:49:10. > :50:33.It's agains Sharia law, interest and stuff.
:50:34. > :50:39.If there was another option, I would have taken it.
:50:40. > :50:40.Yusuf hopes to study philosophy and economics
:50:41. > :50:45.He thinks pragmatism must whn over dogma if young Muslims are to get
:50:46. > :50:52.I come from a family of practicing Muslims, but it?s something we had
:50:53. > :50:56.to think twice about, purelx because the need for education is equally as
:50:57. > :51:00.important if not more important than following something that might be
:51:01. > :51:05.dogmatic or constraining to our education. Sharia law tdaches
:51:06. > :51:08.that interest makes the rich richer and the poor poorer.
:51:09. > :51:13.The Government is considering a loan system that would solve
:51:14. > :51:17.the conflict between Sharia law and the current student loan system
:51:18. > :51:20.But according to one Islamic finance expert, the solution is simple.
:51:21. > :51:26.The Government, they should be looking to the future
:51:27. > :51:32.of a society who are educated and they are willing to pay for it.
:51:33. > :51:35.That could be done by just giving simple interest`free loans,
:51:36. > :51:40.Until a solution is agreed, many practicing Muslim teenagers face
:51:41. > :51:47.And I spoke to Professor Mohammed Abdel`Haq,
:51:48. > :51:49.an expert in Islamic Finance at the University of Bolton and I
:51:50. > :52:07.There is nothing against Islamic finance. I don't think Islalic
:52:08. > :52:09.finance would be an alternative. finance. I don't think Islamic
:52:10. > :52:12.finance would be an alternative I finance would be an alternative. I
:52:13. > :52:18.think it would be part of the offering. If you want a conventional
:52:19. > :52:19.loan, you should take it. If you feel the only barrier betwedn
:52:20. > :52:19.loan, you should take it. If you feel the only barrier between you
:52:20. > :52:23.feel the only barrier betwedn you and further education at University
:52:24. > :52:30.is that you don't have an Islamic loan, I think, why not? There are
:52:31. > :52:32.two ways of looking at it. One is that it is good for integration
:52:33. > :52:37.because it allows more Muslhms to go because it allows more Muslhms to go
:52:38. > :52:44.to university. The other is that it promotes separatism because you're
:52:45. > :52:50.creating two systems. I don't want to support two different systems.
:52:51. > :52:54.Given what we are witnessing and facing the challenges of Islamic
:52:55. > :53:02.extremism, I think this is one of the good ways. To integrate the
:53:03. > :53:12.Islamic finance for Islamic youngsters. If you want to further
:53:13. > :53:16.your education through an Islamic loan, yes, we have nothing against
:53:17. > :53:19.loan, yes, we have nothing `gainst Islam because if we don't do this,
:53:20. > :53:24.guess what? Someone else might provide it. Where we are telling
:53:25. > :53:26.them to come and study and hn provide it. Where we are telling
:53:27. > :53:33.them to come and study and in return we want you to be a good citizen,
:53:34. > :53:39.someone else might provide this and make promote them going to Syria. As
:53:40. > :53:43.as long we don't compromise on our values, I don't think we should be
:53:44. > :53:52.worried. Andrew, what do you think worried. Andrew, what do yot think
:53:53. > :53:58.of this idea. I don't want anyone to of this idea. I don't want `nyone to
:53:59. > :54:01.be excluded from university for their faith. If they met it can be
:54:02. > :54:07.found to comply with sharia law, I found to comply with sharia law, I
:54:08. > :54:09.would support it. It is there as an option for people who feel they have
:54:10. > :54:12.to go that way. It doesn't impose option for people who feel they have
:54:13. > :54:15.to go that way. It doesn't hmpose it to go that way. It doesn't hmpose it
:54:16. > :54:21.on other students, they just broadens choice, so I'm find with
:54:22. > :54:23.it. I agree. I think we need to find more ways of encouraging yotng
:54:24. > :54:25.more ways of encouraging young people to go to further education
:54:26. > :54:31.which have seen fees go frol ?3 00 which have seen fees go from ?3000
:54:32. > :54:36.to ?9,000. It has become incredibly difficult for young people,
:54:37. > :54:42.particularly from poorer backgrounds and working`class backgrounds, to
:54:43. > :54:43.get into higher education. So a scheme like this has to be a
:54:44. > :54:48.get into higher education. So a scheme like this has to be ` good
:54:49. > :54:51.thing. Is there a danger of us moving towards a world of greater
:54:52. > :54:55.separatism were Muslims have to go through a different type of loan? We
:54:56. > :54:58.are only talking about the need to go to university and there are
:54:59. > :54:59.are only talking about the need to go to university and there `re loads
:55:00. > :55:04.go to university and there are loads of Muslims who just get on with it.
:55:05. > :55:09.It depends on each individual It depends on each individual
:55:10. > :55:11.person, whatever their faces. I think it would be very easy to turn
:55:12. > :55:15.the argument into separatism, but I the argument into separatisl, but I
:55:16. > :55:16.don't think it does, I think it is just a different option for
:55:17. > :55:23.different people. There havd always different people. There have always
:55:24. > :55:24.been various things on the market. You can get energy from companies
:55:25. > :55:30.that operate certain policids, this that operate certain policids, this
:55:31. > :55:34.is just like that. Professor Abdul Hakim ancient integration.
:55:35. > :55:37.and it emerged this week th`t twin sisters from Manchester may have
:55:38. > :55:41.Counter terrorism officers say they're concerned about the safety
:55:42. > :55:44.of Salma and Zahra Hullarnie but also believe they could pose
:55:45. > :55:47.One organisation that works with Muslim women says they
:55:48. > :55:51.Maybe their brothers encouraged them, I don?t know.
:55:52. > :56:01.But the term I would use is religious grooming.
:56:02. > :56:08.Bill, how concerned should we be about security implications? I think
:56:09. > :56:12.that if the story is true, it is that if the story is true, it is
:56:13. > :56:13.extremely worrying. I am worried about what is happening to young
:56:14. > :56:18.people. When we have childrdn who people. When we have children who
:56:19. > :56:21.are ending up going to a war zone, it is something we should bd
:56:22. > :56:22.extremely worried about and something that we all have a
:56:23. > :56:26.responsibility to do somethhng responsibility to do somethhng
:56:27. > :56:30.about. We should be putting resources into schools and colleges
:56:31. > :56:39.to make sure that children are to make sure that children `re
:56:40. > :56:43.supported. To stop radicalisation? Yes. I think it is something that
:56:44. > :56:53.has to be handled a very sensitive way. Coverage and some popular
:56:54. > :56:57.newspapers hasn't helped. Is it worrying that people who are brought
:56:58. > :56:58.up in mainstream education here in Manchester suddenly feel thd
:56:59. > :56:58.up in mainstream education here in Manchester suddenly feel the need to
:56:59. > :57:07.Manchester suddenly feel thd need to go to a foreign country and start
:57:08. > :57:11.fighting? It's very worrying. We all remember being young and
:57:12. > :57:14.impressionable and you might adopt your own political ethos at school
:57:15. > :57:18.or later, and I think there is a real danger that this vulnerability
:57:19. > :57:24.can be exploited by different groups. There is no sign so far that
:57:25. > :57:33.there has been a huge amount of success in preventing it. It's how
:57:34. > :57:42.do you prevent it. What mothvates people? Is it a belief or a lack of
:57:43. > :57:43.belief? I don't know. I think you have to find the cause to deal
:57:44. > :57:43.belief? I don't know. I think you have to find the cause to ddal with
:57:44. > :57:45.have to find the cause to deal with it.
:57:46. > :57:48.Let's have a look at the rest of the week's news now.
:57:49. > :57:49.Here's Stuart Pollitt with 60 Seconds.
:57:50. > :57:52.Rochdale Council suspended its inquiry into a possible covdr`up up
:57:53. > :57:54.of abuse at Knowl View residential school after Greater Manchester
:57:55. > :57:59.Police said it had enough evidence for a criminal investigation.
:58:00. > :58:01.The North West was promised ?1 billion pounds
:58:02. > :58:04.in the latest round of Government Growth Fund investment.
:58:05. > :58:12.Labour says London's still getting too much.
:58:13. > :58:19.This is a continuing problel and it is vitally important to correct the
:58:20. > :58:22.balance. Greater Manchester's health service
:58:23. > :58:23.is preparing A public consultation got underway
:58:24. > :58:27.into plans for as many Critics say it will cost too much
:58:28. > :58:31.and others will have to close. Backing for fracking `
:58:32. > :58:33.Blackpool hoteliers came out in support of drilling
:58:34. > :58:36.for shale gas on the Fylde coast. Opponents say it damages
:58:37. > :58:37.the environment And open Government `
:58:38. > :58:44.the Manx Parliament was held outside for the annual national celdbration
:58:45. > :59:04.of Tynwald Day. As we head into the summer recess,
:59:05. > :59:07.where do they stand in terms of political parties? How confident
:59:08. > :59:08.where do they stand in terms of political parties? How confhdent are
:59:09. > :59:10.political parties? How confident are you that Labour is on the rhght path
:59:11. > :59:15.you that Labour is on the right path for a factory next year? I think
:59:16. > :59:20.Labour has the right offer for the electorate next year. We have
:59:21. > :59:26.National policy Forum announcements next weekend with the conference in
:59:27. > :59:34.autumn. We already have some strong policies including the energy price
:59:35. > :59:38.freeze changes, national investment and the support for small
:59:39. > :59:39.businesses. Ed Miliband is the leader with those policies and
:59:40. > :59:41.businesses. Ed Miliband is the leader with those policies `nd I
:59:42. > :59:44.think he is the one who will put them into practice. They ard his
:59:45. > :59:49.policies, that's the important policies, that's the import`nt
:59:50. > :59:57.point. We were a consistent lead in the opinion polls. Andrew? The
:59:58. > :00:02.economy is on the up. There is growth and people can see that. It
:00:03. > :00:04.is beginning to filter into people's pockets, slowly. We
:00:05. > :00:05.is beginning to filter into people's pockets, slowly. Wd had a
:00:06. > :00:10.people's pockets, slowly. We had a dreadful inheritance. Do yot think
:00:11. > :00:15.you are in a better place than Labour? I think so because the
:00:16. > :00:22.economy is moving in the right direction. It has been tough and
:00:23. > :00:28.people have understood that. My constituents aren't seeing that
:00:29. > :00:31.improvement. Most of my constituents have not seen any improvement.
:00:32. > :00:34.Just time to thanks my guests, Bill Esterson and Andrew Bingham.
:00:35. > :00:35.Now I'll hand you back to Andrew Neil in London.
:00:36. > :00:48.will keep a bit safer. That is all the time we have.
:00:49. > :00:50.So, plenty happening in Parliament this coming week, including
:00:51. > :00:53.a controversial bill to make so-called assisted dying legal and
:00:54. > :01:14.Lord Carey has intervened in the assisted dying debate. Will it make
:01:15. > :01:20.a difference? It will make a difference because we have
:01:21. > :01:26.established in the House of Lords, I am not sure who they speak for and
:01:27. > :01:33.why they should have a privileged position, but he was a big opponent
:01:34. > :01:36.and has made a change of heart. The fact that the Daily Mail has printed
:01:37. > :01:48.this shows this is a big intervention. The Bill being pushed
:01:49. > :01:54.through, is it now on the agenda? I think it is. There are international
:01:55. > :01:59.examples of assisted dying elsewhere. The state of Oregon
:02:00. > :02:05.passed a Bill similar to this in the 1990s and things have not got out of
:02:06. > :02:07.control. That has not been an expansion or abuse. It has settled
:02:08. > :02:16.down and become part of the furniture. That makes it easier for
:02:17. > :02:20.this Bill, to make the case for it. Religious people may still have a
:02:21. > :02:24.principled objection but most other people have a practical objection,
:02:25. > :02:27.which is how to put in place safeguards to deal with unscrupulous
:02:28. > :02:31.relatives or anyone else who wants to abuse this right? Once a
:02:32. > :02:37.controversial issue is only being opposed for practical reasons it is
:02:38. > :02:40.on its way to getting its way. What is the division, is it the Church
:02:41. > :02:48.against everybody else? Is it a right and left division? What is
:02:49. > :02:54.stopping it? It is a very difficult moral issue and there are people who
:02:55. > :02:59.can have genuinely held Christian beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who
:03:00. > :03:03.can be on both sides. I think that the Lord Carey intervention is
:03:04. > :03:07.potentially a game changer not just because he is a former Archbishop of
:03:08. > :03:11.Canterbury but because he was on the Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of
:03:12. > :03:18.England. That is quite a big move. The response was to say, please
:03:19. > :03:23.withdraw your bell and let us have a royal Commission. The Supreme Court
:03:24. > :03:28.kicked the ball back to Parliament when they rejected the cases of
:03:29. > :03:34.three people who had been taking the case and said, we could say that
:03:35. > :03:38.banning the right to life is against the European Court of Human Rights,
:03:39. > :03:47.but it is a moral issue and an issue for Parliament. Parliament needs to
:03:48. > :03:52.decide. The data act that is going to be pushed through Parliament. In
:03:53. > :04:01.record time. To comply with a European court judgement. Tom Watson
:04:02. > :04:05.and David Davis, some dissent. Are you so prized with how united the
:04:06. > :04:13.establishment, left, right and centre is? No. There is a great
:04:14. > :04:17.quote saying this has been enacted under the something must be done act
:04:18. > :04:24.and that captures it exactly. Even Cameron says he does not want to
:04:25. > :04:27.look people in the eye and say that he did not do everything he could.
:04:28. > :04:32.There is no end to the power of surveillance. It is all was about
:04:33. > :04:35.drawing a distinction. I am always suspicious when politicians look
:04:36. > :04:42.something up and said, we have all agreed. Are there at the centre is
:04:43. > :04:51.right or is the political establishment right? I think the
:04:52. > :04:57.establishment is right. I think it is stronger than other issues. We
:04:58. > :04:59.are in a unique position where all three political parties have
:05:00. > :05:04.relatively recent experience of government so they now that security
:05:05. > :05:11.threats are not made up by unscrupulous people. The legislation
:05:12. > :05:17.being proposed is not dramatic, it is to fill a gap that was created. I
:05:18. > :05:23.do not see the political controversy. All three political
:05:24. > :05:31.parties support it. David Davis and Liberty are against that, and always
:05:32. > :05:35.are. Would you not have expected... The Lib Dems are in government, but
:05:36. > :05:42.a bit more rebellion on the Labour backbenches? There is no political
:05:43. > :05:48.controversy put outside parliament there's quite a lot of controversy
:05:49. > :05:55.about this. My paper has taken an interest in this. It is interesting,
:05:56. > :06:03.it does not feel, it is not a 1950s, three public school boys
:06:04. > :06:07.setting, let us have this deal. The Liberal Democrats and Labour have
:06:08. > :06:14.serious questions. There's going to be a sunset clause that will run out
:06:15. > :06:20.in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who asked pretty tough questions, have
:06:21. > :06:22.said there are assurances. Ed Miliband did not go to public
:06:23. > :06:25.school. For many English football fans,
:06:26. > :06:28.tonight's World Cup final presents How do you pick
:06:29. > :06:31.between two traditional foes Well, if you're
:06:32. > :06:34.a political obsessive, like these three, you could always back the
:06:35. > :06:37.nation according to how it votes. The website LabourList has produced
:06:38. > :06:52.a political guide to the tournament. At the beginning of the tournament,
:06:53. > :06:57.it was a fairly balanced playing field politically with 15 left wing
:06:58. > :07:01.and 17 right-wing countries. England found themselves isolated in a group
:07:02. > :07:07.with three left-wing countries. That was the least of their problems.
:07:08. > :07:10.There was a clear domination of democratic regimes over
:07:11. > :07:13.authoritarian with only six of oratory and countries making it
:07:14. > :07:23.through to the finals and the only all authoritarian tie was dubbed the
:07:24. > :07:26.worst match of the World Cup. By the second round 16 teams remained. The
:07:27. > :07:31.left had a clear advantage with nine, seven from the right and
:07:32. > :07:36.authoritarian countries all but wiped out. Two representatives
:07:37. > :07:45.remained. Both were beaten by European democracies. By the
:07:46. > :07:51.semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A right-wing Protestant Europe taking
:07:52. > :07:56.on Catholics South America. With one victory apiece, Germany knocking out
:07:57. > :08:01.Brazil and Argentina beating the Dutch, tonight's final repeats that
:08:02. > :08:11.pattern. Who will win? Angela Merkel's Germany or Argentina?
:08:12. > :08:13.We're joined now by Britain's only Labour adviser
:08:14. > :08:27.Should we read political significance in to the fact that the
:08:28. > :08:32.only time England has won the World Cup was under a Labour government?
:08:33. > :08:38.Of course. The problem is we did not qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a
:08:39. > :08:43.Labour government. We have had some pretty shoddy results under a Labour
:08:44. > :08:48.government. As someone under the left, are you backing Argentina?
:08:49. > :08:53.Absolutely not. I do not think it has anything to do with politics. It
:08:54. > :09:01.is a bit of fun. People should choose it is Don Hoop plays the best
:09:02. > :09:04.football and the Germans have been fantastic. They were great in 2010
:09:05. > :09:09.fantastic. They were great in 2 10 as well. They started this model in
:09:10. > :09:15.2008 and that is the sort of thing people should be supporting. Who
:09:16. > :09:20.should a Eurosceptic support? I would not say Argentina because that
:09:21. > :09:25.is the country that has tried to seize British sovereign territory
:09:26. > :09:31.within my lifetime. You were not around for the Blitz. Believe it or
:09:32. > :09:35.not, I was not. There is a strong political case to support Germany.
:09:36. > :09:48.They are probably going to win the World Cup with a clear of -- with
:09:49. > :09:52.players of Polish origin. That sort of cultural change they have forced
:09:53. > :09:59.themselves to go through... You talk about them being right wing, but in
:10:00. > :10:07.fact the way that the German league is structured, and I am an expert,
:10:08. > :10:11.is based on ownership. It is very different from the Premier League.
:10:12. > :10:19.It is about football as a usual good. The ticket prices are lower.
:10:20. > :10:26.The fans are involved in running the club. It is a model that all English
:10:27. > :10:32.football clubs should emulate. Germany had a strong football team
:10:33. > :10:39.under centre right governments and centre left governments and a
:10:40. > :10:46.coalition. A strong football team and a strong economy.
:10:47. > :10:57.coalition. A strong football team Conservative MP who is the
:10:58. > :11:01.coalition. A strong football team was outraged and said you should not
:11:02. > :11:07.do that, so he could happily support Germany. What was interesting about
:11:08. > :11:12.the authoritarian and democratic regimes, what is great is that the
:11:13. > :11:24.World Cup is run by this open and democratic organisation Fifa. It is
:11:25. > :11:27.similar to the EU in many regards. Two countries led by women. Maybe
:11:28. > :13:00.gender is the thing. We did not Two countries led by women. Maybe
:13:01. > :13:03.watching? Absolutely. Thank you This is the last Sunday Politics
:13:04. > :13:08.for the summer. But we'll be back in early autumn
:13:09. > :13:11.and our first programme will be live from Scotland,
:13:12. > :13:17.the weekend before the referendum The Daily Politics is back tomorrow
:13:18. > :13:22.at noon and we'll bring you the last PMQs before the summer
:13:23. > :13:25.on Wednesday morning from 11:30am. Remember, if it's Sunday,
:13:26. > :13:28.it's the Sunday Politics, unless