:00:38. > :00:43.Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.
:00:44. > :00:45.Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out
:00:46. > :00:54.their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.
:00:55. > :00:57.They released a video late last night, showing a masked man
:00:58. > :01:03.beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.
:01:04. > :01:05.The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.
:01:06. > :01:07.Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.
:01:08. > :01:10.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.
:01:11. > :01:12.As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA
:01:13. > :01:16.President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder
:01:17. > :01:24.Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as
:01:25. > :01:26.he predicts a historic and substantial victory in
:01:27. > :01:34.As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,
:01:35. > :01:36.I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his
:01:37. > :01:44.And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown
:01:45. > :01:46.David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask
:01:47. > :01:51.pro-unionist George Galloway whether it's enough to win over waverers.
:01:52. > :01:55.When should a misbehaving councillor call it a day?
:01:56. > :01:57.And sweeping changes north of the border, but what will
:01:58. > :02:13.step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?
:02:14. > :02:16.Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that
:02:17. > :02:19.Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the
:02:20. > :02:23.The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American
:02:24. > :02:25.journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently
:02:26. > :02:29.beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.
:02:30. > :02:32.The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,
:02:33. > :02:36.also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK
:02:37. > :02:38.Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed
:02:39. > :02:43.His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he
:02:44. > :02:50.David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said
:02:51. > :02:53.his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary
:02:54. > :03:02.Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power
:03:03. > :03:05.to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,
:03:06. > :03:09.Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.
:03:10. > :03:13.Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr
:03:14. > :03:28.Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.
:03:29. > :03:33.Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who
:03:34. > :03:40.have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David
:03:41. > :03:42.Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action
:03:43. > :03:55.Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or
:03:56. > :03:59.any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a
:04:00. > :04:03.will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in
:04:04. > :04:09.that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a
:04:10. > :04:11.collective response to what is a threat to humanity.
:04:12. > :04:12.Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now
:04:13. > :04:25.Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet
:04:26. > :04:30.again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options
:04:31. > :04:34.facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I
:04:35. > :04:40.think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these
:04:41. > :04:43.hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government
:04:44. > :04:48.policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states
:04:49. > :04:53.are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to
:04:54. > :04:58.make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might
:04:59. > :05:01.be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the
:05:02. > :05:10.past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the
:05:11. > :05:13.hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one
:05:14. > :05:17.there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the
:05:18. > :05:26.difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.
:05:27. > :05:29.Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction
:05:30. > :05:36.the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in
:05:37. > :05:41.perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not
:05:42. > :05:45.just in Iraq, but also in Syria We heard from President Obama outlining
:05:46. > :05:47.his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about
:05:48. > :05:53.building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And
:05:54. > :05:58.training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the
:05:59. > :06:09.UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been
:06:10. > :06:13.arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually
:06:14. > :06:18.conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We
:06:19. > :06:30.have not got a clear answer from government and that is something
:06:31. > :06:33.where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible
:06:34. > :06:36.we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I
:06:37. > :06:41.think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to
:06:42. > :06:46.a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however
:06:47. > :06:48.terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play
:06:49. > :06:54.more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait
:06:55. > :07:01.see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would
:07:02. > :07:04.like to see would be British and American special forces going in and
:07:05. > :07:10.getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is
:07:11. > :07:14.very difficult, isn't it? It is As you saw with a rescue mission a few
:07:15. > :07:17.months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the
:07:18. > :07:19.ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of
:07:20. > :07:24.kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so
:07:25. > :07:29.you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get
:07:30. > :07:32.the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a
:07:33. > :07:35.possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly
:07:36. > :07:41.challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating
:07:42. > :07:44.within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are
:07:45. > :07:49.looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,
:07:50. > :07:51.thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed
:07:52. > :07:55.to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever
:07:56. > :08:02.lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked
:08:03. > :08:05.like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,
:08:06. > :08:07.though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO
:08:08. > :08:10.would carry the day. The new consensus is that
:08:11. > :08:23.it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of
:08:24. > :08:27.the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign
:08:28. > :08:30.had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the
:08:31. > :08:37.undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of
:08:38. > :08:42.63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move
:08:43. > :08:47.into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as
:08:48. > :08:50.the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the
:08:51. > :08:54.average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.
:08:55. > :08:59.There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the
:09:00. > :09:04.first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the
:09:05. > :09:13.other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by
:09:14. > :09:20.Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and
:09:21. > :09:24.there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have
:09:25. > :09:30.the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but
:09:31. > :09:35.their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another
:09:36. > :09:46.suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against
:09:47. > :09:52.50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with
:09:53. > :09:56.yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %. But some people think 18% are
:09:57. > :09:59.undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling
:10:00. > :10:01.booths that could make all the difference.
:10:02. > :10:05.campaigner and Respect Party MP George Galloway.
:10:06. > :10:13.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the
:10:14. > :10:18.Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You
:10:19. > :10:20.sure you are on right side? Yes because the interests of working
:10:21. > :10:23.people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,
:10:24. > :10:30.a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been
:10:31. > :10:33.achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being
:10:34. > :10:37.thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the
:10:38. > :10:40.underlying interests of working people are on working on the
:10:41. > :10:44.relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very
:10:45. > :10:48.messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the
:10:49. > :10:53.children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,
:10:54. > :10:56.and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded
:10:57. > :11:01.that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK
:11:02. > :11:07.context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the
:11:08. > :11:11.opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in
:11:12. > :11:16.taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on
:11:17. > :11:21.companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest
:11:22. > :11:27.of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,
:11:28. > :11:31.country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public
:11:32. > :11:37.expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have
:11:38. > :11:40.Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The
:11:41. > :11:45.British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex
:11:46. > :11:52.Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.
:11:53. > :11:56.And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,
:11:57. > :12:00.the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be
:12:01. > :12:03.gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working
:12:04. > :12:06.people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in
:12:07. > :12:11.fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,
:12:12. > :12:15.Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely
:12:16. > :12:22.if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the
:12:23. > :12:25.way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But
:12:26. > :12:33.Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May The
:12:34. > :12:38.polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the
:12:39. > :12:42.average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip
:12:43. > :12:46.and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as
:12:47. > :12:49.Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour
:12:50. > :12:56.government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a
:12:57. > :12:59.stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.
:13:00. > :13:04.That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the
:13:05. > :13:08.people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on
:13:09. > :13:13.your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my
:13:14. > :13:17.feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the
:13:18. > :13:21.house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not
:13:22. > :13:30.only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy
:13:31. > :13:36.-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will
:13:37. > :13:44.mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The
:13:45. > :13:49.cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the
:13:50. > :13:54.financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry
:13:55. > :14:01.of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or
:14:02. > :14:05.less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in
:14:06. > :14:08.an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about
:14:09. > :14:12.nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are
:14:13. > :14:17.against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by
:14:18. > :14:23.independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.
:14:24. > :14:27.The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The
:14:28. > :14:31.danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex
:14:32. > :14:37.Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately
:14:38. > :14:40.joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --
:14:41. > :14:46.involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a
:14:47. > :14:50.peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole
:14:51. > :14:52.that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military
:14:53. > :14:58.entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,
:14:59. > :15:03.till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the
:15:04. > :15:09.grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines
:15:10. > :15:14.and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other
:15:15. > :15:18.hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British
:15:19. > :15:23.nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it
:15:24. > :15:32.showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely
:15:33. > :15:37.riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to
:15:38. > :15:44.be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises
:15:45. > :15:49.of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for
:15:50. > :15:53.the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told
:15:54. > :16:05.us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?
:16:06. > :16:12.I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result
:16:13. > :16:20.This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation
:16:21. > :16:27.of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The
:16:28. > :16:43.country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And
:16:44. > :16:48.the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a
:16:49. > :16:54.300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour
:16:55. > :17:00.leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer
:17:01. > :17:04.one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this
:17:05. > :17:10.deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side it
:17:11. > :17:13.will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,
:17:14. > :17:18.particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and
:17:19. > :17:24.decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of
:17:25. > :17:29.Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just
:17:30. > :17:34.months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of
:17:35. > :17:39.people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a
:17:40. > :17:46.grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which
:17:47. > :17:51.history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get
:17:52. > :17:57.out of its deathbed in Scotland it will have to become Labour again.
:17:58. > :18:05.Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,
:18:06. > :18:11.they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in
:18:12. > :18:15.Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the
:18:16. > :18:20.Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the
:18:21. > :18:25.chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly
:18:26. > :18:32.right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty
:18:33. > :18:36.and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many
:18:37. > :18:42.but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,
:18:43. > :18:48.but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the
:18:49. > :18:53.situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It
:18:54. > :19:00.is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the
:19:01. > :19:03.roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she
:19:04. > :19:08.pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would
:19:09. > :19:13.not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.
:19:14. > :19:16.If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it
:19:17. > :19:21.would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another
:19:22. > :19:26.issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the
:19:27. > :19:33.Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering
:19:34. > :19:38.home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had
:19:39. > :19:43.signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble
:19:44. > :19:49.for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of
:19:50. > :19:55.all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to
:19:56. > :20:00.risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win
:20:01. > :20:06.on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe
:20:07. > :20:11.fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already
:20:12. > :20:18.aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with
:20:19. > :20:22.death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday
:20:23. > :20:29.if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this
:20:30. > :20:34.home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on
:20:35. > :20:41.this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland
:20:42. > :20:49.getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole
:20:50. > :20:54.procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home
:20:55. > :21:01.rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to
:21:02. > :21:05.introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional
:21:06. > :21:11.monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England It
:21:12. > :21:17.was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James
:21:18. > :21:23.Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not
:21:24. > :21:29.rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.
:21:30. > :21:32.It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns
:21:33. > :21:35.in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum
:21:36. > :21:46.Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign
:21:47. > :21:53.It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new
:21:54. > :21:59.great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,
:22:00. > :22:03.Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous
:22:04. > :22:10.Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.
:22:11. > :22:14.Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the
:22:15. > :22:19.referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron
:22:20. > :22:24.did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set
:22:25. > :22:30.out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,
:22:31. > :22:37.a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed
:22:38. > :22:41.improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a
:22:42. > :22:47.basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called
:22:48. > :22:53.Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the
:22:54. > :22:57.leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded
:22:58. > :23:01.with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of
:23:02. > :23:06.campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a
:23:07. > :23:10.break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes
:23:11. > :23:16.campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they
:23:17. > :23:24.accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when
:23:25. > :23:30.the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one
:23:31. > :23:35.week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the
:23:36. > :23:39.first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to
:23:40. > :23:44.head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that
:23:45. > :23:47.you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision
:23:48. > :23:56.if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally
:23:57. > :24:01.different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex
:24:02. > :24:06.Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the
:24:07. > :24:15.NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden
:24:16. > :24:22.-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex
:24:23. > :24:29.Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were
:24:30. > :24:32.other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like
:24:33. > :24:39.Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join
:24:40. > :24:42.the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?
:24:43. > :24:50.This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,
:24:51. > :24:54.Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are
:24:55. > :25:00.proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to
:25:01. > :25:04.stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and
:25:05. > :25:08.centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more
:25:09. > :25:13.devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the
:25:14. > :25:17.parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster
:25:18. > :25:21.some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister
:25:22. > :25:26.if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a
:25:27. > :25:32.good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'
:25:33. > :25:41.views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I
:25:42. > :25:44.am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from
:25:45. > :25:48.Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and
:25:49. > :25:53.I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly
:25:54. > :25:58.inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it
:25:59. > :26:03.would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30
:26:04. > :26:06.hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more
:26:07. > :26:10.about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.
:26:11. > :26:13.And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor
:26:14. > :26:15.of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.
:26:16. > :26:27.An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership
:26:28. > :26:33.of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations is
:26:34. > :26:43.that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's
:26:44. > :26:48.prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is
:26:49. > :26:54.not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two
:26:55. > :26:58.years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting
:26:59. > :27:04.for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes
:27:05. > :27:09.on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom
:27:10. > :27:13.because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free
:27:14. > :27:18.prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not
:27:19. > :27:23.in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the
:27:24. > :27:27.price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry
:27:28. > :27:35.about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing
:27:36. > :27:44.stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power
:27:45. > :27:49.generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,
:27:50. > :27:55.natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class
:27:56. > :27:59.universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the
:28:00. > :28:02.world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the
:28:03. > :28:06.revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but
:28:07. > :28:10.it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand
:28:11. > :28:14.still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections
:28:15. > :28:22.of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to
:28:23. > :28:27.keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and
:28:28. > :28:33.you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.
:28:34. > :28:38.That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the
:28:39. > :28:45.most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic
:28:46. > :28:48.stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee
:28:49. > :28:54.employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking
:28:55. > :29:00.about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to
:29:01. > :29:05.continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the
:29:06. > :29:15.minimum survival of the oil is 0 years. Please get your viewers to go
:29:16. > :29:27.onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The
:29:28. > :29:32.West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done
:29:33. > :29:38.because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil
:29:39. > :29:47.because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident
:29:48. > :29:53.and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn
:29:54. > :29:58.his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions
:29:59. > :30:03.and change are not just single event. What will happen here on
:30:04. > :30:08.Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being
:30:09. > :30:13.patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and
:30:14. > :30:19.abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice
:30:20. > :30:28.What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you
:30:29. > :30:32.against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes
:30:33. > :30:36.campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we
:30:37. > :30:44.are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a
:30:45. > :30:50.scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay
:30:51. > :30:53.on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be
:30:54. > :31:03.lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave
:31:04. > :31:09.the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your
:31:10. > :31:14.way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of
:31:15. > :31:17.business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be
:31:18. > :31:28.clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,
:31:29. > :31:34.because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England
:31:35. > :31:39.want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in
:31:40. > :31:42.Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the
:31:43. > :31:46.jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent
:31:47. > :31:50.and investing in social housing the people of England will say, we can
:31:51. > :31:55.do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In
:31:56. > :31:58.wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are
:31:59. > :32:03.fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the
:32:04. > :32:10.socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it
:32:11. > :32:14.work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in
:32:15. > :32:18.Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters
:32:19. > :32:22.in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can
:32:23. > :32:26.reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three
:32:27. > :32:31.Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,
:32:32. > :32:34.austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election he
:32:35. > :32:39.said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed
:32:40. > :32:44.Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see
:32:45. > :32:48.if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last
:32:49. > :32:51.Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The
:32:52. > :32:57.Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in
:32:58. > :33:02.Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do
:33:03. > :33:17.you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish
:33:18. > :33:20.general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you
:33:21. > :33:26.went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won
:33:27. > :33:30.a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why
:33:31. > :33:34.they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has
:33:35. > :33:40.thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and
:33:41. > :33:45.protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP
:33:46. > :33:49.who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the
:33:50. > :33:53.NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale
:33:54. > :33:57.people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public
:33:58. > :34:01.ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George
:34:02. > :34:06.Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish
:34:07. > :34:10.Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right
:34:11. > :34:14.in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,
:34:15. > :34:17.Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent
:34:18. > :34:23.Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an
:34:24. > :34:28.independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir
:34:29. > :34:33.Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the
:34:34. > :34:38.right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist
:34:39. > :34:45.vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence
:34:46. > :34:51.people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who
:34:52. > :34:55.fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.
:34:56. > :35:02.Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who
:35:03. > :35:04.engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I m
:35:05. > :35:11.still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,
:35:12. > :35:15.Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,
:35:16. > :35:19.I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,
:35:20. > :35:25.it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any
:35:26. > :35:29.young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't
:35:30. > :35:34.care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the
:35:35. > :35:41.unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who
:35:42. > :35:45.support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the
:35:46. > :35:49.campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the
:35:50. > :35:53.establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what
:35:54. > :35:57.they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your
:35:58. > :36:02.coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial
:36:03. > :36:07.control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and
:36:08. > :36:11.the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.
:36:12. > :36:14.Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.
:36:15. > :36:20.Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses
:36:21. > :36:25.if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking
:36:26. > :36:32.to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that
:36:33. > :36:35.you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.
:36:36. > :36:41.Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with
:36:42. > :36:48.the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.
:36:49. > :36:52.They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for
:36:53. > :36:57.freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So
:36:58. > :37:01.far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might
:37:02. > :37:03.happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to
:37:04. > :37:20.you later with George Galloway. Sweeping changes North
:37:21. > :37:27.of the border, but what will Will we have to tax
:37:28. > :37:36.our car to go across the border Will they stop us bringing
:37:37. > :37:38.out haggis and shortbread? You never know, so we?ve had
:37:39. > :37:40.to look at contingency plans. Kicking things
:37:41. > :37:44.off this week we have Ann Coffey, And we don't want to leave the Welsh
:37:45. > :37:49.out, so we also welcome Nigdl Evans, the Conservative MP for
:37:50. > :37:50.Ribble Valley. Ann, why do you think the polls
:37:51. > :38:00.now, are so close in terms I was campaigning in Scotland
:38:01. > :38:07.yesterday. It's an issue that is deeplx
:38:08. > :38:09.dividing a nation and I think It's dividing families,
:38:10. > :38:13.it's dividing neighbourhoods, passionate feeling on either side
:38:14. > :38:14.and that's what' being refldcted. Yes, I'll agree with what Ann has
:38:15. > :38:19.just said, but also the fact that the electorate ? not only those in
:38:20. > :38:22.Scotland, there are lots of Scottish people living in England and Wales ?
:38:23. > :38:25.who feel very angry that thdy're disenfranchised
:38:26. > :38:26.and I think that has skewed it Well, regardless of the restlt,
:38:27. > :38:30.Thursday's referendum vote will be And it's likely to mean big changes
:38:31. > :38:35.not just in Scotland, but also for Calls for greater powers
:38:36. > :38:41.from Westminster are growing and our reporter Stuart Pollitt s
:38:42. > :38:45.been listening. I'm Gonna Be
:38:46. > :38:55.(500 Miles) ? The Proclaimers. There's little more traditionally
:38:56. > :38:57.Scottish than curling. Yet the sport has more than
:38:58. > :39:00.a brush with this region, too. These are some
:39:01. > :39:01.of the traditional curling trophies We've had curlers here in the
:39:02. > :39:06.North West for over 150 years. As long as there's been curling
:39:07. > :39:09.in Scotland, we've curled hdre. But until Fylde Ice Arena opened
:39:10. > :39:11.recently, Lockerbie ` 150 mhles That meant fortnightly journeys to
:39:12. > :39:16.Scotland and that means, to these It has serious
:39:17. > :39:20.practical implications. It's not going to happen ovdrnight,
:39:21. > :39:22.we understand that, Will we have to tax
:39:23. > :39:28.our car to go across the border Will they stop us bringing
:39:29. > :39:30.out haggis and shortbread? So we've had to look
:39:31. > :39:37.at contingency plans. I once asked them, when we get
:39:38. > :39:40.there, whether we'll need a passport next year and they all laughed
:39:41. > :39:43.and so, Oh, it won't go through It will make a subtle difference
:39:44. > :39:49.but I hope it's only a subtle So that's the English view
:39:50. > :39:54.of those who play So let's play a traditional English
:39:55. > :39:58.sport with Scot. Hi, Jackie. Do you fancy
:39:59. > :40:01.a quick game of bowls with le? Poet and novelist Jackie Kax can
:40:02. > :40:15.see the case for independence. I've been in Peebles,
:40:16. > :40:22.Edinburgh and Glasgow and the energy and excitement of the possibility
:40:23. > :40:25.of change in the air is palpable. And she's detected excitement here,
:40:26. > :40:29.too. I was at the Manchester Eye Hospital
:40:30. > :40:31.today and the man that was putting drops in my eyes said to me,
:40:32. > :40:35.I'm green with envy for Scotland. But he said,
:40:36. > :40:37.why don't we have the same kind And I do think that there mhght be
:40:38. > :40:43.a knock`on effect in a positive way Peter thinks the English devolution
:40:44. > :40:49.ball is gathering momentum. Whatever happens
:40:50. > :40:51.on September the 18th, therd has to The constitutional status qto is now
:40:52. > :40:56.unsustainable for the rest Our group is committed to
:40:57. > :41:02.the idea of bringing process of government closer to the people
:41:03. > :41:05.that are impacted by decisions. So that means devolved government
:41:06. > :41:10.in some form or another. Liverpool's mayor, wrapping himself
:41:11. > :41:13.in the saltire this week, doesn t want an independent Scotland but he
:41:14. > :41:17.does want more devolved powdrs. We want a better focus on otr cities
:41:18. > :41:21.rather than just the capital. I think we're now winning that
:41:22. > :41:24.argument and I think we can win it better with a united argument with
:41:25. > :41:26.Scotland, England and Wales As the curlers wonder whethdr
:41:27. > :41:33.when they are next in Scotl`nd they'll fellow countrymen or
:41:34. > :41:36.foreign visitors, the result of the Scottish referendum has the
:41:37. > :41:38.potential to knock the political And meanwhile I've been talking to
:41:39. > :41:48.Professor David Denver, an expert in elections and Scotland
:41:49. > :41:51.at the University of Lancaster. I asked him how a vote
:41:52. > :41:54.for independence could affect In Scotland, at the moment,
:41:55. > :42:00.there are 40`odd Labour MPs In future Labour, therefore,
:42:01. > :42:06.are going to start, as it where minus 40`odd as compared to
:42:07. > :42:11.the current situation. By and large, the system will
:42:12. > :42:16.be favouring the Conservatives. So we could end up with
:42:17. > :42:20.a position where the North West is returning loads of Labour MPs
:42:21. > :42:24.but the governments are Torx? Whether this will annoy people
:42:25. > :42:32.in the North West so much that they'll say, m`ybe we
:42:33. > :42:35.should have devolution, that would There's certainly no immedi`te
:42:36. > :42:42.demand for devolution. But there's been a lot
:42:43. > :42:44.of government pressure in tdrms of devolving more powers, economic
:42:45. > :42:51.powers and that kind of thing.. All governments,
:42:52. > :42:55.since the 70s certainly, all governments have taken lore and
:42:56. > :42:59.more power into their own h`nds Personally, I'm quite in favour
:43:00. > :43:04.of devolving a lot of these things. But central government
:43:05. > :43:09.and politicians at the centre really prefer to hold on to their
:43:10. > :43:13.power because they're frightened that, say, politicians in Lhverpool
:43:14. > :43:16.will spend money like water and then And they want to control
:43:17. > :43:22.the finances. Professor David Denver,
:43:23. > :43:25.thank you very much indeed. And we're joined by Gina Dowding,
:43:26. > :43:29.a Green Party councillor on Lancashire County Council, `nd Paul
:43:30. > :43:31.Salveson from the Hannah Mitchell Foundation, which campaigns for more
:43:32. > :43:36.power for the North of Engl`nd. Gina, why is the Green Partx
:43:37. > :43:40.in favour of Scottish indepdndence? I'm a member of the Green P`rty of
:43:41. > :43:47.England and Wales and the Scottish Greens had their own independence
:43:48. > :43:50.vote in the Green Party in 0990 And we are supporting the
:43:51. > :43:56.Scottish Greens. Basically,
:43:57. > :43:59.this is a chance for huge change. It's a chance to challenge
:44:00. > :44:02.the status quo. It's not just the SNP Show
:44:03. > :44:06.in Scotland. What we are seeing is
:44:07. > :44:09.a whole range of community groups and progressive campaigns w`nting
:44:10. > :44:14.constitutional change. And this is
:44:15. > :44:17.the nearest they are getting to it? They seem to want to take control
:44:18. > :44:23.of their own affairs and th`t's Well, there's been quite a lot
:44:24. > :44:29.of devolution to Scotland over The Labour government did introduce
:44:30. > :44:35.that devolution recognising the argument that Scotland was different
:44:36. > :44:40.in many ways, culturally, and needed I just think we can get to `
:44:41. > :44:46.situation where there is th`t level of devolution which is of bdnefit to
:44:47. > :44:50.Scotland but at the same tile we keep those things that give us
:44:51. > :44:54.strength as a country, as a United Kingdom, a common economy,
:44:55. > :44:58.a common currency, and the value of that in terms
:44:59. > :45:04.of the wealth that we gener`te. I just think we can reach
:45:05. > :45:07.something that benefits us `ll and well, first of all, what is your
:45:08. > :45:14.position on Scottish independence? We say it is for the people
:45:15. > :45:20.of Scotland to decide. I?ve got a daughter who livds
:45:21. > :45:27.in Scotland. She's Lancashire born and bred
:45:28. > :45:30.like me. I don't think it will make `ny
:45:31. > :45:32.difference, but I'd like to see my four grandchildren growing up
:45:33. > :45:36.in a strong, democratic Scotland with some of that enthusiasl
:45:37. > :45:40.and involvement translating down Yes, because the real issue
:45:41. > :45:45.for you is that this could lead to, well, what for the north
:45:46. > :45:49.of England, for the North Wdst? I think it's stimulating a debate,
:45:50. > :45:51.which is what we're doing now, It's the start
:45:52. > :45:56.of a very long conversation. We want to see devolution to
:45:57. > :45:58.the north of England. Meaning directly elected regional
:45:59. > :46:03.government rather than unaccountable combined authorities,
:46:04. > :46:06.which is all that the established parties are offering
:46:07. > :46:09.us, I'm afraid, at the moment. So, we want to have some
:46:10. > :46:12.of the democracy that Scotl`nd and Wales, and also London,
:46:13. > :46:16.let's not forget there is a directly elected London Assembly,
:46:17. > :46:18.which has got huge resources. Well, number one,
:46:19. > :46:28.I love Scotland and I hope they stay part of the United Kingdom of
:46:29. > :46:31.Great Britain and Northern Hreland. Number two,
:46:32. > :46:34.the only people who are not being asked about this, about devolved
:46:35. > :46:38.government, seem to be the Dnglish. I know Tony Blair once famotsly said
:46:39. > :46:41.the best thing to do about the West Well, I've got say, after Thursday,
:46:42. > :46:47.irrespective of whether it's a Yes or No, we know that there are going
:46:48. > :46:51.to be extra powers given to Scotland, then the question needs,
:46:52. > :46:53.not only to be asked, but it needs to be answered
:46:54. > :46:55.by all the political parties. What's What should happen in the North West
:46:56. > :47:00.of England? I think the best form
:47:01. > :47:10.of devolution is to the indhvidual. Let's put taxation back
:47:11. > :47:13.in people's pockets, so lowdr taxes, put money back
:47:14. > :47:15.in people's pockets and then let But, as far as the other thhngs are
:47:16. > :47:23.concerned, I think it's wholly and completely wrong that Scotthsh MPs
:47:24. > :47:26.now come to Westminster and they vote on our hospitals, our dducation
:47:27. > :47:30.and we can't do that in Scotland. Do you support region assembly
:47:31. > :47:33.for the north of England? There's a lot of confusion
:47:34. > :47:38.about all of this as far as the constitutional settldment
:47:39. > :47:42.that we are going through. I find it amazing that Alex Salmond
:47:43. > :47:45.is horrified by the prospect that if they vote Yes then Scotl`nd
:47:46. > :47:48.comes out of the European Union He wants to go straight back
:47:49. > :47:51.into the European Union. Ask the Scottish people
:47:52. > :47:55.if they want to go into the European It's getting the power
:47:56. > :48:05.at the right level and, for me, Would Labour do
:48:06. > :48:13.anything differently? I think we do recognise
:48:14. > :48:16.the argument that was put forward by the city leader in Liverpool
:48:17. > :48:19.that cities are a great gendrator I think we would like to sed much
:48:20. > :48:31.more of the decisions about transport and much more of the
:48:32. > :48:33.budget being transferred to those Yes, but what Paul's saying is,
:48:34. > :48:41.the trouble with that is, they are not directly answerable to
:48:42. > :48:45.voters because there isn't a regional assembly as such or
:48:46. > :48:51.something similar to go with it Well, I?m not terribly
:48:52. > :48:53.convinced with that argument. We had a referendum in the
:48:54. > :48:56.North East a few years ago, which people very clearly dhd not
:48:57. > :48:58.want any more government. Now, in local elections,
:48:59. > :49:02.what you do is get a tendency not for accountability for
:49:03. > :49:04.the local councillors but that tends to be a referendum on what people
:49:05. > :49:07.feel about the national govdrnment. This idea that, somehow, if you have
:49:08. > :49:14.a regional government that there A quick reaction,
:49:15. > :49:20.Paul I think that the argumdnts for I totally agree with what Nhgel s
:49:21. > :49:24.saying. Let's devolve power to
:49:25. > :49:26.the most appropriate level. Some things work well
:49:27. > :49:29.on a local level. Some things work far better
:49:30. > :49:32.on a regional level. Most of the developed countries
:49:33. > :49:34.across Europe, Germany in particular, has got very
:49:35. > :49:38.strong regional government, which we Maybe, partly, we thought that
:49:39. > :49:42.might make Germany weaker. It?s getting power to
:49:43. > :49:47.the right level. Certain things like strateghc
:49:48. > :49:49.transport, the railways, police I think it's strange that
:49:50. > :49:59.Nigel is talking about... well,
:50:00. > :50:01.the Tories have resisted Scottish independence and yet they'rd talking
:50:02. > :50:04.about wanting to get out of Europe so the argument suits them when they
:50:05. > :50:07.like, but not in terms of... You can't believe the internal
:50:08. > :50:11.torture I am going through. I'm better off together at one level
:50:12. > :50:14.and I'm better of out on thd other. I can't believe the torture that I
:50:15. > :50:16.feel. If Scotland goes and all those MPs
:50:17. > :50:22.disappear, then as Professor David Denver said,
:50:23. > :50:25.chances are we will get much more in I can't imagine you are
:50:26. > :50:31.comfortable with that. Definitely not comfortable with
:50:32. > :50:33.that, but the point is the genie hs out of
:50:34. > :50:36.the bottle and things are changing. People aren't necessarily
:50:37. > :50:38.going to vote the same. We'll see huge changes
:50:39. > :50:42.in the way people look We are going to have to look
:50:43. > :50:49.at our constitution, reinstating democracy in England and
:50:50. > :50:53.an English parliament in sole way, That kind of scaremongering before,
:50:54. > :51:03.that people would lose their votes, Gina Dowding, Paul Salveson ,
:51:04. > :51:11.thank you both very much indeed Now,
:51:12. > :51:12.the tabloids have dubbed ond Wigan Possibly that's
:51:13. > :51:18.for spending taxpayers' mondy on premium rate sex chat lines, maybe
:51:19. > :51:20.it was for watching pornogr`phy on a work laptop or perhaps it was
:51:21. > :51:24.the sexist texts and abuse. Whichever, he's not resigning and,
:51:25. > :51:27.as Chris Rider reports, there's no easy way for opponents to
:51:28. > :51:31.get rid of him either. You wouldn't put up with it
:51:32. > :51:36.in any other job, would you? There's no excuse for that kind
:51:37. > :51:44.of thing and I don't think he should They can sack someone
:51:45. > :51:48.from a normal working place for that In Wigan town centre
:51:49. > :51:51.the behaviour of one councillor has This a man who has caused
:51:52. > :51:55.a great deal of upset And Emma Barton has put up
:51:56. > :52:00.with years of sexist abuse. It almost makes you self dotbt
:52:01. > :52:06.the way you've been working, It's very, very emotional,
:52:07. > :52:12.it really is. He's been suspended
:52:13. > :52:14.from the council twice for his Now, he's been using
:52:15. > :52:19.his council laptop to access pornographic material and using his
:52:20. > :52:21.mobile phone to call sex ch`t lines All this leaving a phone bill
:52:22. > :52:29.of almost ?2,400. The key point about all this is that
:52:30. > :52:32.Robert Bleakley is still a sitting councillor yet thd council
:52:33. > :52:35.here can't do anything about it The standards board set up
:52:36. > :52:38.by the government was scrapped in 2011 leaving the council without
:52:39. > :52:42.any powers to remove Mr Ble`kley. In fact, only the voters can
:52:43. > :52:46.do that at an election. In the meantime the council are
:52:47. > :52:48.telling Mr Bleakley not to talk I think it is an extraordin`ry
:52:49. > :52:56.measure and one that we are not really happy to introduce, but we
:52:57. > :52:59.are at our wits end as to what we But for all the criticism,
:53:00. > :53:03.Robert Bleakley has These remarks, or text mess`ges
:53:04. > :53:13.were made after the death of my mother and, I have to say
:53:14. > :53:18.in the early stages of a brdakdown. The local Labour MP says new
:53:19. > :53:27.measures might be required. I think this might be a timd, now,
:53:28. > :53:30.to look at whether recall of elected representatives to
:53:31. > :53:33.include councillors is something we But whatever the outcry and concerns
:53:34. > :53:40.of female council staff, Robert Bleakley remains a councillor
:53:41. > :53:43.and is, in fact, thinking of Nigel, I think a lot of people
:53:44. > :53:48.would be quite shocked that it Was it a mistake to scrap
:53:49. > :53:56.the Standards Board back in 201 ? Well, I think a lot of councillors
:53:57. > :53:59.were unhappy with the Stand`rds Board too because even on trivial
:54:00. > :54:02.things people were being suspended. I think we have to get
:54:03. > :54:04.the right balance. It's members of Parliament `nd it
:54:05. > :54:11.is police and crime commisshoners. The whole thing needs to be looked
:54:12. > :54:14.at when Ann and I get back from recess to Parliament one
:54:15. > :54:18.of the first bills will be looking I understand your point
:54:19. > :54:26.about the Standards Board because there was a great ddal
:54:27. > :54:29.of unhappiness about it, but wasn't the mistake not to replace ht with
:54:30. > :54:31.something more effective rather than Yes, clearly people are unh`ppy and
:54:32. > :54:39.the failure of the legislathon we introduced was that we didn't even
:54:40. > :54:43.consider what could happen hn the Now we've got Keith Vaz thrdatening
:54:44. > :54:50.to introduce legislation hilself in order to be able to remove
:54:51. > :54:54.people like Shawn. Ultimately, the power has to
:54:55. > :54:58.rest with the people themselves Certainly, at our level we will be
:54:59. > :55:01.looking in October at the possibility of legislation coming
:55:02. > :55:06.into an act before the next general election whereby when peopld vote
:55:07. > :55:09.for us in 2015, if they are not happy with us
:55:10. > :55:12.because something goes wrong think we have to have a rec`ll
:55:13. > :55:21.mechanism and we have to have it across the board for all eldcted
:55:22. > :55:24.representatives not just MPs. The only people who should be able
:55:25. > :55:28.to recall an elected represdntative I don't think it should be
:55:29. > :55:33.an unelected board What we need to find is a mdchanism
:55:34. > :55:41.for doing that, that on the one hand doesn't get you into a situ`tion
:55:42. > :55:45.where someone has been elected the year before and they have
:55:46. > :55:48.25,000 people who voted thel in and We have to find a method th`t goes
:55:49. > :55:57.back to asking the people who elected that person, do thex want
:55:58. > :56:00.to recall them, and we have to find I think that's what this Recall Bill
:56:01. > :56:11.will be about. Time for the rest of
:56:12. > :56:18.the week's news now in 60 Sdconds. Liverpool City Council's party
:56:19. > :56:20.leaders met this week to discuss the Ged Fitzgerald spent two ye`rs
:56:21. > :56:27.in charge of Rotherham Council, where leaders were criticisdd for
:56:28. > :56:31.failing to act over child abuse Scrap us ` the leader of
:56:32. > :56:35.Cheshire East Council wants his authority to merge with neighbouring
:56:36. > :56:38.Cheshire West and Chester. The County Council was split
:56:39. > :56:40.into two unitary authorities five Wirral Council blamed centr`l
:56:41. > :56:53.government cuts for 500 job losses. The authority needs to save a
:56:54. > :56:58.further ?45 million in thred years. The High court will review Salford
:56:59. > :57:01.Council's decision to cut transport Council wants to slash its fleet
:57:02. > :57:09.of minibuses to save ?0.5 mhllion. And the Chancellor and MP
:57:10. > :57:11.for Tatton, George Osborne, was in Manchester to announce plans for
:57:12. > :57:15.a new ?60 million research centre Well, also this week the sad news
:57:16. > :57:26.of the death of the Labour LP for Heywood and Middleton,
:57:27. > :57:27.Jim Dobbin, who was on the Mr Dobbin, who was 73, had served
:57:28. > :57:33.the constituency for 17 years. He died
:57:34. > :57:36.on a business trip to Poland. Ed Miliband was
:57:37. > :57:42.among those paying tribute. He was a warm man, he was a
:57:43. > :57:47.principled man, he was a decent man. He was a man who devoted
:57:48. > :57:53.his life to public service. And he was someone who was respected
:57:54. > :58:13.and, indeed, loved by colle`gues And, do you have good memorhes of
:58:14. > :58:22.Jim? I have fantastic memorhes of Jim. He was persistent and kept on
:58:23. > :58:28.campaigning. He was never one to seek publicity for what
:58:29. > :58:35.did things quietly and calmly on behalf of his constituents. Nigel.
:58:36. > :58:43.Yes, he was a good friend. He was a gentleman and
:58:44. > :58:51.very strong beliefs but he did it in such
:58:52. > :59:02.In fact, I agreed with most of them.
:59:03. > :59:18.remember once I sat next to him in the House of
:59:19. > :59:25.difference between sitting on your side and being on your side.
:59:26. > :59:29.And, basically he's right isn't it? that UKIP is getting at the moment.
:59:30. > :59:38.And, basically he's right isn't it? I think people will have vidws about
:59:39. > :59:45.that but this is not the first time a by`election has been
:59:46. > :59:53.is unusual but it's not the first time. I think that we need to
:59:54. > :00:00.making sure that the constituents are
:00:01. > :00:07.and dedicated MP. Nigel, wh`t do you think?
:00:08. > :00:13.think it is right that if the Labour Party
:00:14. > :00:18.The last time a sewer was built in London was 150 years ago, otherwise
:00:19. > :00:24.we would have a dirty River Thames. Andrew, back to you.
:00:25. > :00:29.Can the No campaign still pull it off?
:00:30. > :00:32.And even if they do is the whole of the UK now on the brink
:00:33. > :00:49.I'm joined now by John McTernan former adviser to Gordon Brown
:00:50. > :00:52.and Tony Blair, Alex Bell, former Head of Policy for the SNP
:00:53. > :00:55.and Lindsay McIntosh, the Times Scottish Political Editor
:00:56. > :01:01.And I'm delighted that Tommy and George have stayed too.
:01:02. > :01:09.No fighting has broken out either. Where
:01:10. > :01:09.No fighting has broken out either. have three full days to go
:01:10. > :01:12.No fighting has broken out either. polling day. What is the state of
:01:13. > :01:20.play? I think the poll of polls is accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital
:01:21. > :01:25.is to bring the undecided voters in, and they properly have about
:01:26. > :01:28.500,000. I think there are a lot of undecided people. I think they know
:01:29. > :01:33.which way they are leaning, but they haven't jumped. The hope of the no
:01:34. > :01:39.campaign is that they will go for the status quo on Thursday. How do
:01:40. > :01:43.you assess the state of the campaign now? The crucial thing is the big
:01:44. > :01:52.swing. The swing has come towards yes, so will the momentum carry it
:01:53. > :01:56.over the line? I will think it does, because it is an antiestablishment
:01:57. > :02:01.swell, and its people responding to standard Western as the politicians
:02:02. > :02:06.and saying that they want a new way -- Westminster politicians. I think
:02:07. > :02:10.that yes will sneak it. A referendum can be more important than a general
:02:11. > :02:15.election, and the Yes campaign have had the momentum. This was the week
:02:16. > :02:19.the momentum stopped. We started the week looking as though yes were
:02:20. > :02:22.going into the lead and then it stopped and most of the recent polls
:02:23. > :02:28.show a distinct lead for the no campaign. A distinct lead? It is one
:02:29. > :02:34.or two points. It is six in one poll, two in another, aiding
:02:35. > :02:37.another. The poll of polls is a good way of measuring, and is it
:02:38. > :02:42.statistically Nick -- nip and tuck? It is the week the momentum stopped.
:02:43. > :02:45.About a fifth of the electorate That will be a quarter of the
:02:46. > :02:49.turnout have voted already, by postal vote, and they are running
:02:50. > :02:55.very strongly towards no, so there is a whole bank of votes there. The
:02:56. > :02:58.postal votes are skewed to the over 60s, and that is the demographic
:02:59. > :03:04.that the Yes campaign have had the biggest trouble with. Absolutely,
:03:05. > :03:08.the Yes campaign faced a challenge amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and
:03:09. > :03:14.always based challenge with the older voters. Trust me, I was the
:03:15. > :03:18.decision the day the civil servants made it possible for the 16 to
:03:19. > :03:22.18-year-olds to vote, and we said there was a victory for the no
:03:23. > :03:28.campaign in that alone. The young tend to be conservative by nature. I
:03:29. > :03:36.think again that to say that the momentum has stopped when you had a
:03:37. > :03:40.20 point lead, this is a referendum whether people will speak and they
:03:41. > :03:46.will be heard. Except for the one poll which needs a huge health
:03:47. > :03:48.warning because of the size of the sample, the momentum is
:03:49. > :03:53.unquestionably all the way through August is going in the direction of
:03:54. > :03:59.yes. It hasn't quite continue to get to the 55/45 four yes that Alex
:04:00. > :04:03.Salmond thinks will be the result. I would agree with John. This was the
:04:04. > :04:10.momentum stalled. We saw the three leaders coming up, and that kept
:04:11. > :04:13.Alex Salmond off the front pages on the television and we had a raft of
:04:14. > :04:16.economic warnings which, although they were dismissed as
:04:17. > :04:20.scaremongering, they will have had a lot of traction with voters. What
:04:21. > :04:26.does the no campaign have to do in the final three days? It has to
:04:27. > :04:31.focus on the undecided, relentlessly. It has to do stick to
:04:32. > :04:34.the question of risk and keep pushing back on Alex Salmond to say
:04:35. > :04:39.it doesn't matter if the banks leave, it will all be all right on
:04:40. > :04:42.the night. The huge question amongst the undecided voters is about the
:04:43. > :04:47.economy. It is about jobs and currency, about business. That risk
:04:48. > :04:50.is what will crystallise in the ballot box on Thursday and that has
:04:51. > :04:55.to be the focus. What does the Yes campaign have to do? It has to drive
:04:56. > :04:59.home that the swing to the Yes campaign is motivated by people who
:05:00. > :05:02.want a different politics. They have decided amongst themselves that they
:05:03. > :05:08.want to change Scotland. The unfortunate thing is, even though
:05:09. > :05:11.the no campaign has had the chance to put up after proposals, they have
:05:12. > :05:14.failed. The Scottish people want their powers were a purpose and they
:05:15. > :05:18.say that only the Yes campaign can deliver that. There will be two days
:05:19. > :05:22.of relentless campaigning from today, Monday and Tuesday, then the
:05:23. > :05:28.media, the newspapers, including your own, will come out with the
:05:29. > :05:32.final poll, the ones that will be the closest to the day that the
:05:33. > :05:36.Scots actually go and vote. I think we will see more polling this week,
:05:37. > :05:39.but what is interesting is the extent to which the pollsters are
:05:40. > :05:42.picking up what is going on in the street. We know we have a huge
:05:43. > :05:48.number of voters who have never voted before and are not engage with
:05:49. > :05:51.politics, so what will they do? The third candidate in the election if
:05:52. > :05:54.I can would in this way, are the polls. They might have a lot of
:05:55. > :05:59.questions to answer on Friday morning. We were talking earlier
:06:00. > :06:03.with George and Tommy about the Labour Party's consequences in all
:06:04. > :06:07.of this. Gordon Brown, of course, has had a bit of a second coming as
:06:08. > :06:10.a result of this referendum. I just want to play a clip of Gordon Brown
:06:11. > :06:21.during the campaign and get a reaction. And I say this to Alex
:06:22. > :06:24.Salmond himself. Up until today I am outside front line politics. If he
:06:25. > :06:29.continues to peddle this deception, that the Scottish Parliament under
:06:30. > :06:32.his leadership, and he cannot do anything to improve the health
:06:33. > :06:39.service until he has a separate state, then I will want to join Joe
:06:40. > :06:43.Hanlon want in and securing the return of a Labour government as
:06:44. > :06:50.quickly as possible -- Johann Lamont. That was seen by some people
:06:51. > :06:53.as Gordon Brown implying he might stand for the Scottish Parliament.
:06:54. > :07:00.Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon Brown the saviour of Scottish
:07:01. > :07:03.Labour? I did a double black the other night -- double act with him
:07:04. > :07:08.the other night, and I must say he was a big beast all over again. He
:07:09. > :07:13.crossed the stage Meli dealt with the audience brilliantly. He has a
:07:14. > :07:18.certain presence, Gordon Brown, but he would really have to reinvent
:07:19. > :07:23.himself quite considerably. He is capable of doing, but the man who
:07:24. > :07:27.was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton, who pulled together the original red
:07:28. > :07:32.paper on Scotland, he would have to be that Gordon Brown rather than the
:07:33. > :07:35.Gordon Brown of some more melancholy events later. Tommy, you have both
:07:36. > :07:39.been critical of the state of the Scottish Labour Party. Rather than
:07:40. > :07:42.looking to Gordon Brown, which might be an interim solution, doesn't
:07:43. > :07:47.Scottish Labour have to find a new generation of people to reignite it?
:07:48. > :07:53.What George and I are agreed on and you have to remember this question
:07:54. > :07:55.of independence see us disagreeing passionately, and in most other
:07:56. > :07:59.things we find ourselves in agreement, one thing is clear,
:08:00. > :08:05.Scottish Labour is finished. They have lost the heart and soul of
:08:06. > :08:08.Scotland. The fact that we are discussing with four days to go an
:08:09. > :08:13.independence referendum that is neck and neck, Labour have failed
:08:14. > :08:16.miserably, absolutely miserably because they have given up
:08:17. > :08:21.everything they stood for. The SNP has picked it up. They have just
:08:22. > :08:25.taken on the bank -- mantle of a left of centre party and are picking
:08:26. > :08:29.up support. Gordon and the rest in my opinion, they represent the past.
:08:30. > :08:32.The yes vote on the Yes campaign represents the future. What do you
:08:33. > :08:39.say to that? There is nothing socialist about an SNP that wants to
:08:40. > :08:42.cut business tax by 3% in the pan. There is nothing socialist about an
:08:43. > :08:47.SNP destroying further education so they can give middle-class people
:08:48. > :08:51.free education. The Labour Party is alive and kicking. You can see if it
:08:52. > :08:58.is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to
:08:59. > :09:01.use this word, but they are kind of privatised from the Scottish Labour
:09:02. > :09:06.Party. They have rode their own fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump
:09:07. > :09:11.because official Scottish Labour did not want him leading their campaign.
:09:12. > :09:15.Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off the stage until it became so
:09:16. > :09:21.critical that he had to be brought back. I agree with John, the SNP
:09:22. > :09:26.talks left but acts right. That is before they get state powers. That
:09:27. > :09:30.is what is exciting about the referendum, it's not about the SNP,
:09:31. > :09:33.it's about the people deciding. What we have heard so far in the
:09:34. > :09:37.referendum campaign is that there is a desperate yearning in the
:09:38. > :09:41.electorate for real politics, purposeful politics and for the
:09:42. > :09:44.people to be represented. It is probably to the eternal shame of
:09:45. > :09:48.labour that they gave up that role and other people are now taking it
:09:49. > :09:52.upon themselves. How would you assess the state of the Labour
:09:53. > :09:56.Party? The problem is that it was demolished by the SNP in 2011 and
:09:57. > :09:59.what they should have done since then and in other circumstances is
:10:00. > :10:03.take a real look within themselves and brought forward new talent and
:10:04. > :10:06.policies and watch out what they stood for. They've been unable to do
:10:07. > :10:13.that because they are locked in a constitutional row. It is the plan
:10:14. > :10:16.of the Nationalists to fight the first Scottish general election as
:10:17. > :10:19.an independent nation as a nationalist party with its own
:10:20. > :10:25.programme. You don't all go your own way. Why don't you do that? You have
:10:26. > :10:30.more on your main reason to be, so why not go, left, right and centre
:10:31. > :10:34.question you are presuming you don't go the one-way. I do not see the
:10:35. > :10:38.function of the SNP after the yes vote. I think it is clear that there
:10:39. > :10:42.is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an SNP which attracts votes from the
:10:43. > :10:45.left and that is the one for me Whether that is called the SNP or
:10:46. > :10:50.something else, I don't know. I think the assumption that we are
:10:51. > :10:58.going into a mirror of old politics in a new world is just fundamentally
:10:59. > :11:01.flawed. That is interesting. Let's just bring in the English
:11:02. > :11:06.dimensional. In many ways, England has not spoken in this referendum
:11:07. > :11:10.campaign. Whether it is yes or no, it will, and to give you a flavour
:11:11. > :11:14.of what some in England might be thinking was saying, here is a clip
:11:15. > :11:20.from John Redwood. We are fed up with this lopsided devolution, this
:11:21. > :11:22.unfair devolution. Scotland gets first-class Devolution, Wales gets
:11:23. > :11:25.second-class devolution and England gets nothing. If Wales wants the
:11:26. > :11:30.same as us, they should have it and then there would be commonality so
:11:31. > :11:33.we could discuss and decide in our own countries, in our own assemblies
:11:34. > :11:41.in Parliament, all those things that are devolved. George, it was clear
:11:42. > :11:43.that if Scotland voted yes for independence it has huge
:11:44. > :11:48.implications for England than the UK, but it's also clear particularly
:11:49. > :11:52.after Gordon Brown's intervention, even if it is no, it has huge
:11:53. > :11:56.applications. You are, I suggest, agreeing with John Redwood that
:11:57. > :12:02.there should be an English boys It would be a step too far for me to
:12:03. > :12:06.agree with him -- English voice I appreciate I might have gone out on
:12:07. > :12:12.a limb. He is the voice of Mars the Balkan from Mars. My own
:12:13. > :12:16.constituents in Bradford are asking, what about us? All these things
:12:17. > :12:21.being done, all the extra mile is being travel to Scotland, what about
:12:22. > :12:26.us? Labour would be well advised to adjust quickly on this so that the
:12:27. > :12:33.John Redwood types do not steal the show. England has yes to use -- yet
:12:34. > :12:36.to speak. It's interesting when you hear a Labour backbencher in
:12:37. > :12:42.Scotland talk about a command paper. He is not in government. Gordon
:12:43. > :12:45.Brown is going round Scotland promising things and he has
:12:46. > :12:50.absolutely no chance of delivering them. The MPs in England will say,
:12:51. > :12:54.hey, what are you talking about We have never been discussed with that?
:12:55. > :12:59.We have not agreed with that. The only way people in Scotland will get
:13:00. > :13:04.the powers they deserve is by voting yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you
:13:05. > :13:09.think it is 60/40. I will stick with it, because we have an unprecedented
:13:10. > :13:12.election. 97% of Scotland is registered to vote. The working
:13:13. > :13:21.class will vote in numbers never voted before. George? 55/45 for our
:13:22. > :13:24.side. And if there is a rogue poll, the tek Levesley polled --
:13:25. > :13:29.technically flawed poll, which should not be published because it
:13:30. > :13:32.is so flawed, then we would be stretching towards what I am
:13:33. > :13:38.predicting already. I think in the last few days we will reach that.
:13:39. > :13:41.Come on. If the no campaign can get the silent majority out, they will
:13:42. > :13:48.edge it. You think they will win, but how much? They cannot give up in
:13:49. > :13:53.a second, a moment or a mile. It is that close. It will be won by the
:13:54. > :14:01.passionate view. I will go for a narrow yes victory. I'm the George,
:14:02. > :14:06.53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- I am with
:14:07. > :14:09.53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. -- to argue about that later. Thank you
:14:10. > :14:11.for being with us on the special Sunday politics from Edinburgh.
:14:12. > :14:13.That's all from us today in Scotland.
:14:14. > :14:15.Don't forget the Daily Politics will have continuing coverage
:14:16. > :14:18.of the referendum campaign all this week on BBC2 at midday.
:14:19. > :14:21.On Thursday night Huw Edwards will be in Glasgow and I will be
:14:22. > :14:25.in London to bring you live coverage of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm
:14:26. > :14:28.on a historic night for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.
:14:29. > :14:31.And I'll be back next Sunday when we're live from the Labour
:14:32. > :14:39.Unless, of course, the referendum result is so tumultuous even the
:14:40. > :14:44.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.