:00:08. > :00:11.Good morning from Manchester, where the Labour Party are gathering
:00:12. > :00:14.for their annual conference as British politics adjusts to what
:00:15. > :00:52.the rest of the UK. in Scotland might mean for
:00:53. > :00:58.Scotland's decision to vote 'no means more powers heading north
:00:59. > :01:05.But what about Home Rule for England?
:01:06. > :01:10.Independence for Scotland has been his life's work. Alex Salmond tells
:01:11. > :01:16.us why he is stepping down after losing Thursday's vote. And we've
:01:17. > :01:25.got an exclusive survey of what the people who want to be Labour
:01:26. > :01:27.And we're at the Labour Party Conference in Manchester asking how
:01:28. > :01:31.Ed Miliband can win back lost voters in the North West and what
:01:32. > :01:45.powers and more freedom to spend. But what is the next devolution step
:01:46. > :01:48.for the capital? With me, the best and brightest political panel in the
:01:49. > :01:52.business, at least that is what they pay me to say every week. Nick Watt,
:01:53. > :01:58.Helen Lewis and, this week, we have done some devolution ourselves to
:01:59. > :02:04.other areas, and we have Sam Coates from the times. The union survived,
:02:05. > :02:06.but only at the cost of more powers for the Scottish parliament and
:02:07. > :02:10.enshrining the formula that gives Scotland a privileged position when
:02:11. > :02:13.it comes to public spending, which has MPs on both sides of the Commons
:02:14. > :02:19.of in arms. The Scottish has MPs on both sides of the Commons
:02:20. > :02:25.has been answered for now. Suddenly, the English question takes centre
:02:26. > :02:32.stage, doesn't it? Absolutely. It has a grubby feel, when that vow was
:02:33. > :02:35.put to the Scottish people, that they hoped would swing the vote
:02:36. > :02:43.there was nothing about English only votes. It was unconditional? The
:02:44. > :02:46.Tory proposal did talk very core justly about looking at the
:02:47. > :02:52.proposals by a former clerk of the House of Commons that looked at this
:02:53. > :02:58.issue. That was very cautious. - cautiously. These proposals will not
:02:59. > :03:01.get through Westminster unless David Cameron addresses the English-only
:03:02. > :03:05.issue. You look at people like Chris Grayling in the Sunday Telegraph.
:03:06. > :03:08.Alistair Darling on the Andrew Marr Show said you could not have a link
:03:09. > :03:10.between what you are giving Holyrood and English-only MPs. Back on says,
:03:11. > :03:27.is welshing on the deal. -- comic he They were furious that he gave away
:03:28. > :03:34.these tax powers and inscribed the Barnett formula. They said they
:03:35. > :03:38.weren't going to vote for it. It is a shameless piece of opportunism.
:03:39. > :03:41.Now they can say that Labour are the ones that don't trust you and don't
:03:42. > :03:46.want to give you more powers. He knows it is going to be a tight
:03:47. > :03:49.timetable. The idea of getting a draft of this out by Burns Night,
:03:50. > :03:53.most people would say, given they had six years to set up Scottish
:03:54. > :04:01.parliament, the idea we will solve these huge constitutional questions
:04:02. > :04:04.in four months is absurd. But they don't care about the constitutional
:04:05. > :04:10.questions, the one they care about is English votes? There is a simple
:04:11. > :04:13.reason they won that. If you look at the MPs in England alone, the Tories
:04:14. > :04:18.have a majority of 59, an overwhelming bias, and if you strip
:04:19. > :04:22.out Wales Scotland and Northern Ireland, so this has become a
:04:23. > :04:25.partisan issue. The question is whether David Cameron can follow
:04:26. > :04:31.through on the promise. He said he would link the two Scottish powers,
:04:32. > :04:37.but it's not clear you will get either before the general election.
:04:38. > :04:40.It's not but the purpose is to cause Labour Party discomfort, and it is.
:04:41. > :04:46.You can see with date -- Ed Miliband this morning, they find it very hard
:04:47. > :04:51.to answer the question, why shouldn't there be English votes for
:04:52. > :04:56.English laws? Ed Miliband this morning was saying how London MPs
:04:57. > :05:00.get to vote on London transport and English MPs don't outside of London
:05:01. > :05:04.and it is confusing, but Labour is in a difficult position. They were
:05:05. > :05:09.before the Prime Minister made his announcement. The yes side triumphed
:05:10. > :05:12.in Glasgow, the largest city in Scotland, a Labour heartland, and
:05:13. > :05:16.the Prime Minister is saying that if Labour don't agree to this by the
:05:17. > :05:20.time of the general election, he is handing a gift to the SNP, that that
:05:21. > :05:25.would be the party that the natural Labour voters would vote for to see
:05:26. > :05:28.off the plan. It's not just Tory backbenchers. There are Labour
:05:29. > :05:31.backbenchers saying there should be in which bodes for English laws
:05:32. > :05:37.Even people in the Shadow Cabinet think it is right. The cases
:05:38. > :05:41.unarguable. If you say her chewing a partisan way, you can't sell it to
:05:42. > :05:45.the country. Ed Miliband is on course to have a majority of about
:05:46. > :05:50.20, and you take the 40 English MPs, and he hasn't got it. This is a
:05:51. > :05:56.coalition government where the Conservatives haven't got really to
:05:57. > :05:58.be in charge, they have put in sweeping laws. Labour should
:05:59. > :06:05.probably take the bullet on this one. Let's leave it for the moment.
:06:06. > :06:10.But don't go away. As they struggle to keep the United Kingdom in one
:06:11. > :06:12.piece, David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg promised to keep
:06:13. > :06:15.something called the Barnett Formula.
:06:16. > :06:18.It wasn't invented in Barnet, but by man called Joel Barnett.
:06:19. > :06:20.And it's how the UK government decides how much
:06:21. > :06:23.public money to spend in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
:06:24. > :06:24.It's controversial, because it's led to public spending
:06:25. > :06:27.being typically 20% higher in Scotland than in England.
:06:28. > :06:29.Well, some English MPs aren't happy about that.
:06:30. > :06:35.I'm joined now by the Tory MP Dominic Raab.
:06:36. > :06:43.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. How can the Prime Minister scrap the
:06:44. > :06:49.Barnett Formula when he has just about to keep it on the front page
:06:50. > :06:54.of a major Scottish newspaper? If we are going to see financial
:06:55. > :06:56.devolution to Scotland, more powers of tax and spend, it's impossible
:06:57. > :07:00.not to look at the impact on the wider union, and there have been
:07:01. > :07:04.promises made to the Scottish and we should do our best to deliver them,
:07:05. > :07:07.but there have been promises made to the English, Welsh and Northern
:07:08. > :07:11.Irish. If you look at the Barnett Formula which allocates revenue
:07:12. > :07:16.across the UK, it is massively prejudicial to those other parts. We
:07:17. > :07:19.have double the number of ambulance staff and nurses compared to
:07:20. > :07:22.England. The regional breakdown is more stark with double the amount
:07:23. > :07:27.spent on social housing in Scotland than in Yorkshire and the North West
:07:28. > :07:31.and the Midlands. The Welsh do very poorly on social services for the
:07:32. > :07:35.elderly. What are we saying? That they need our children, patients and
:07:36. > :07:41.the elderly are worth less than the Scots? That's not the way to have a
:07:42. > :07:45.sustainable solution. I understand the distribution impact of the
:07:46. > :07:49.Barnett Formula, but Westminster politicians are already held in
:07:50. > :07:56.contempt by a lot of people and to rat on such a public pledge would
:07:57. > :08:00.confirm their worst fears. Your leader would have secured the union
:08:01. > :08:05.on a false prospectus. First of all, it's clear from the Ashcroft
:08:06. > :08:08.poll that the offer made in the Scottish newspaper had zero effect
:08:09. > :08:10.and if anything was counter-productive to the overall
:08:11. > :08:16.result because two thirds of swing voters in the last few days voted
:08:17. > :08:20.for independence. But we can't keep proceeding without looking at the
:08:21. > :08:24.promises made to the English. We said in the referendum that we would
:08:25. > :08:27.have English laws -- English votes on English issues. The Liberal
:08:28. > :08:31.Democrats, in their manifesto, pledged to scrap the Barnett
:08:32. > :08:36.Formula. We have to reconcile all of the promises to all parts of the UK,
:08:37. > :08:41.and Alex Salmond talks about a Westminster stitch up, but what he's
:08:42. > :08:44.trying to do is, with gross double standards, is in French stitch up in
:08:45. > :08:53.rapid time, which would be grossly unfair to the rest of the rest of UK
:08:54. > :08:56.-- is contrive stitch up. What is unfair about the current spending
:08:57. > :09:04.formula? The extra money Scotland gets from Barnet, is covered by the
:09:05. > :09:07.oil revenues it sends to London Scotland is only getting back on
:09:08. > :09:09.spending what it pays in tax. There is no analysis out there that
:09:10. > :09:18.suggests it is the same amount. Having voted to stay in the UK. Let
:09:19. > :09:23.me give you the figures. Last year revenues were 4.5 billion, and the
:09:24. > :09:30.Barnett Formula was worth 4.5 billion to Scotland. It is awash. A
:09:31. > :09:34.huge amount of British taxpayer investment has gone into extracting
:09:35. > :09:37.North Sea oil, and if we move to a more federal system, we would need
:09:38. > :09:40.to look at things like the allocation of resources, but the
:09:41. > :09:45.Barnett Formula has been lambasted as a national embarrassment and
:09:46. > :09:49.grossly unfair by its Labour Party architect, Lord Barnett. So what we
:09:50. > :09:55.need is to change this mechanism so it is based on need. The irony is,
:09:56. > :09:57.when the Scots allocate Avenue to the -- revenue to their local
:09:58. > :10:01.authorities, it's done on a needs basis, and what is good for Scotland
:10:02. > :10:07.must be good for the rest of Britain. One final question. The
:10:08. > :10:11.Prime Minister is now making his promise of more home rule for
:10:12. > :10:14.Scotland conditional on English votes for English laws. Why didn't
:10:15. > :10:17.he spell out the condition when he made his bow to the Scottish people?
:10:18. > :10:22.Why has this condition been tacked on by the Prime Minister? In the
:10:23. > :10:28.heat of the referendum debate lots of things were said, but the truth
:10:29. > :10:33.is that Parliament must also look at this and make its views known, and
:10:34. > :10:37.English MPs as well. You will find that conservative as well as a lot
:10:38. > :10:42.of Labour MPs would say, we cannot just rush through a deal that is
:10:43. > :10:46.unsustainable. It has to be good for all parts of Britain. Yes, we should
:10:47. > :10:48.deliver on our promises for more devolution to Scotland, but let s
:10:49. > :10:54.deliver on promises to be English, and Northern Irish. Why are they
:10:55. > :10:55.locked out of the debate? Let's leave it there. Thank you for
:10:56. > :10:57.joining us. The man responsible
:10:58. > :10:59.for taking Scottish nationalism from the political fringes to within
:11:00. > :11:02.touching distance of victory, Alex Salmond, has a flair for dramatic
:11:03. > :11:04.announcements, and he gave us another on Friday
:11:05. > :11:07.when he revealed he's to stand Friends and foes have paid tribute
:11:08. > :11:11.to his extraordinary career. In a moment I'll be speaking to
:11:12. > :11:13.Alex Salmond, but first here's Adam Fleming with
:11:14. > :11:37.the story of the vote that broke The BBC's HQ on the Clyde, the whole
:11:38. > :11:40.place converted into a studio for Scotland's big night. You know what
:11:41. > :11:44.you need for big events, big screens, and there are loads of them
:11:45. > :11:47.here. That one is three stories high, and this is the one Jeremy
:11:48. > :11:51.Vine uses for his graphics. The other thing that is massive is the
:11:52. > :11:56.turnout in the referendum, it is enormous. It was around 85% of the
:11:57. > :12:08.electorate, that is 4 million ballot papers. First to declare
:12:09. > :12:14.Clackmannanshire. No, 19,000. 1 ,000 and 36. The first Noel of the night,
:12:15. > :12:19.and there were plenty more. -- the first no vote. The better together
:12:20. > :12:25.campaigners were over the moon, like Jim Murphy, who had campaigned in
:12:26. > :12:28.100 different towns. I don't want to sound schmaltzy, but it makes you
:12:29. > :12:38.think more of Scotland. It makes you small tree. Yes, 194,779. Around
:12:39. > :12:42.five a.m., the Yes campaign applauded as they won Scotland's
:12:43. > :12:47.biggest city, Glasgow. Dundee went their way as well, but just for
:12:48. > :12:52.areas out of 32 opted for independence. How many copies have
:12:53. > :12:55.you had? This is my second cup of tea on the morning -- how many
:12:56. > :12:59.copies. He was enjoying the refreshments on offer, but the yes
:13:00. > :13:05.campaigners were not in a happy place. We are in the bowels of one
:13:06. > :13:10.of the parts of the British establishment that, I've got to say,
:13:11. > :13:14.has probably done its job in this referendum, because I think the BBC
:13:15. > :13:20.has been critical in shoring up the establishment and have supported the
:13:21. > :13:24.no campaign as best as they could. But there was no arguing with the
:13:25. > :13:31.numbers, and by sunrise, the BBC called it. Scotland has voted no in
:13:32. > :13:35.this referendum on independence The result, in Fife, has taken the no
:13:36. > :13:40.campaign over the line and the official result of this referendum
:13:41. > :13:46.is a no. There we go, on a screen three stories high, Scotland has
:13:47. > :13:50.said no to independence. As soon as the newsprint was driving north of
:13:51. > :13:53.the border, the focus shifted south as the Prime Minister pledged more
:13:54. > :13:57.devolution for Scotland but only if it happened everywhere else as well.
:13:58. > :14:01.Just as Scotland will vote separately in the Scottish
:14:02. > :14:06.Parliament on their issues of tax, spending on welfare, so to England,
:14:07. > :14:09.as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to vote on
:14:10. > :14:16.these issues, and all this must take place in tandem with and at the same
:14:17. > :14:21.pace as the settlement for Scotland. It began to dawn on us all that we
:14:22. > :14:27.might end up doing this again. See you for an English referendum soon?
:14:28. > :14:35.Northern Ireland. There could be another one in Scotland. But not
:14:36. > :14:38.next weekend? Give me a break. There was no break for Nick, because Alex
:14:39. > :14:45.Salmond came up with one last twist, his resignation was as leader, my
:14:46. > :14:52.time is nearly over. But the Scotland, the campaign continues,
:14:53. > :14:56.and the dream shall never die. So, the referendum settled, the
:14:57. > :15:01.Constitution in flux, and a leader gone. All in a night work.
:15:02. > :15:08.Alex Salmond is to stand down as First Minister of Scotland. He shows
:15:09. > :15:12.no signs of going quietly. Last night, I spoke to the SNP leader in
:15:13. > :15:18.Aberdeen and began by asking him if it was always his intention to
:15:19. > :15:22.resign if he lost the referendum. I certainly have thought about it
:15:23. > :15:27.Andrew. But for most of the referendum campaign I thought we
:15:28. > :15:31.were going to win. So, I was... Yeah, maybe a few months back I
:15:32. > :15:37.considered it. But I only finally made up my mind on Friday lunch
:15:38. > :15:46.time. Did you agonise over the decision to stand down? I'm not
:15:47. > :15:52.really an agonising person. When you get beaten in a referendum, you have
:15:53. > :15:57.to consider standing down as a real possibility. Taking responsibility
:15:58. > :16:02.and politics has gone out of fashion but there is an aspect, if you need
:16:03. > :16:05.a campaign, and I was the leader of the Yes Campaign, and you don't win,
:16:06. > :16:10.you have to contemplate if you are the best person to lead future
:16:11. > :16:15.political campaigns. In my judgement, it was time for the SNP
:16:16. > :16:19.and the broader yes movement, the National movement of Scotland, they
:16:20. > :16:23.would benefit from new leadership. In your heart of hearts, through the
:16:24. > :16:29.campaign, as referendum on day approached, you did think you were
:16:30. > :16:35.going to win? Yes, I did. I thought for most of the last month of the
:16:36. > :16:40.campaign, we were in with a real chance. In the last week I thought
:16:41. > :16:45.we had pulled ahead. I thought the decisive aspect wasn't so much the
:16:46. > :16:48.fear mongering, the scaremongering, the kitchen sink being thrown at
:16:49. > :16:53.Scotland by orchestration from Downing Street, I thought the real
:16:54. > :16:58.thing was the pledge, the vow, the offer of something else. A lot of
:16:59. > :17:02.people that had been moving across to independence saw within that a
:17:03. > :17:07.reason to say, well, we can get something anyway without the
:17:08. > :17:12.perceived risks that were being festooned upon them. You were only
:17:13. > :17:19.five points away from your dream. You won Scotland's largest city
:17:20. > :17:24.There is now the prospect of more power. Why not stay and be an
:17:25. > :17:30.enhanced First Minister? Well, it is a good phrase. I'm not going away,
:17:31. > :17:35.though. I'm still going to be part of the political process. In
:17:36. > :17:39.Scotland, if people in Aberdeenshire wish to keep electing me, that is
:17:40. > :17:43.what I will do. But I don't have to be First Minister of Scotland,
:17:44. > :17:49.leader of the Yes Campaign, to see that achieved. The SNP is a strong
:17:50. > :17:54.and powerful leadership team. There are a number of people that would do
:17:55. > :17:59.a fantastic job as leader of the party and First Minister. I've been
:18:00. > :18:03.leader of the party for the last 24 years, I think it is time to give
:18:04. > :18:07.somebody else a shot. There are many able-bodied people that will do that
:18:08. > :18:13.well. -- many able people that will do that well. I'm still part of the
:18:14. > :18:19.national movement, arguing to take this forward. I think you are right,
:18:20. > :18:21.the question, one of the irony is developing so quickly after the
:18:22. > :18:25.referendum, it might be those that lost on Thursday end up as the
:18:26. > :18:32.political winners and those that won end up as the losers. When we met
:18:33. > :18:35.just for the vote, a couple of days before the vote, you said to me that
:18:36. > :18:42.there was very little you would change about the campaign strategy.
:18:43. > :18:46.Is that still your view? Yes. There are one or two things, like any
:18:47. > :18:52.campaign, there is no such thing as a pitcher campaign. I would refer
:18:53. > :18:57.not to dwell on such things. I will leave of my book, which will be
:18:58. > :19:01.called 100 Days, coming out before Christmas. Once you read that, I
:19:02. > :19:05.will probably reveal the things I would have changed. Basically,
:19:06. > :19:09.broadly, this was an extraordinary campaign. Not just a political
:19:10. > :19:13.campaign, but a campaign involving the grassroots of Scotland in an
:19:14. > :19:17.energising, empowering way, the like of which in on of us have witnessed.
:19:18. > :19:22.It was an extraordinary phenomenon of grassroots campaigning, which
:19:23. > :19:30.carried the Yes Campaign so far almost to victory. If Rupert Murdoch
:19:31. > :19:39.put his Scottish Sun behind you would have that made the difference?
:19:40. > :19:46.If ifs and ands were pots and pans... Why did he not? I would not
:19:47. > :19:51.say that, you have form with him that I do not have. I'm not sure
:19:52. > :19:58.about that. I was very encouraged. The coverage, not in the other
:19:59. > :20:00.papers, The Times, which was extremely hostile to Scottish
:20:01. > :20:05.independence, but the coverage in the Scottish Sun was fair, balanced
:20:06. > :20:14.and we certainly got a very fair kick of the ball. In newspapers I
:20:15. > :20:18.would settle for no editorial line and just balanced coverage. We
:20:19. > :20:22.certainly got that from the Scottish Sun and that was an encouragement. I
:20:23. > :20:28.think you saw from his tweets, certainly in his heart he would have
:20:29. > :20:39.liked to have seen a move forward in Scotland and I like that. He said if
:20:40. > :20:43.you lost, that was it, referendum wise, for a generation, which he
:20:44. > :20:48.defined as about 20 years. Is that still your view? Yes, it is. It has
:20:49. > :20:53.always been my view. It's a personal view. There are always things that
:20:54. > :20:57.can change in politics. If the UK moved out of the European Union for
:20:58. > :21:01.example, that would be the sort of circumstance. Some people would
:21:02. > :21:06.argue with Westminster parties, and I'm actually not surprised that they
:21:07. > :21:10.are reneging on commitments, I am just surprised by the speed they are
:21:11. > :21:16.doing it. They seem to be totally shameless in these matters. You
:21:17. > :21:20.don't think they will meet the vow? You don't think there will keep to
:21:21. > :21:23.their vow? They are not, for that essential reason you saw developing
:21:24. > :21:28.on Friday. The Prime Minister wants to link change in Scotland to change
:21:29. > :21:32.in England. He wants to do that because he has difficulty in
:21:33. > :21:36.carrying his backbenchers on this and they are under pressure from
:21:37. > :21:39.UKIP. The Labour leadership are frightened of any changes in England
:21:40. > :21:44.which leave them without a majority in the House of Commons on English
:21:45. > :21:48.matters. I would not call it an irresistible force and immovable
:21:49. > :21:54.object, one is resistible and one is movable. They are at loggerheads.
:21:55. > :21:56.The vow, I think, was something cooked up in desperation for the
:21:57. > :22:02.last few days of the campaign. I think everybody in Scotland now
:22:03. > :22:07.engines that. -- recognises that. It was the people that were persuaded
:22:08. > :22:14.to vote no that word tricked, effectively. They are the ones that
:22:15. > :22:17.are really angry. Ed Miliband and David Cameron, if they are watching
:22:18. > :22:24.this, I would be more worried about the anger of the no voters than the
:22:25. > :22:30.opinion of the Yes Vote on that matter. If independence is on the
:22:31. > :22:37.back burner for now, what would you advise your successor's strategy for
:22:38. > :22:45.the SNP to be? I would advise him or her not to listen to advice from
:22:46. > :22:51.their predecessor. A new leader brings forward a new strategy. I
:22:52. > :22:55.think this is, for the SNP, a very favourable political time. There
:22:56. > :23:00.have been 5000 new members joined since Thursday. That is about a 25%
:23:01. > :23:05.increase in the party membership in the space of a few days. More than
:23:06. > :23:16.that, I think this is an opportunity for the SNP. But my goal is the
:23:17. > :23:19.opportunity for Scotland. I would repeat I am not retiring from
:23:20. > :23:26.politics. I'm standing down as First Minister of Scotland. On Friday
:23:27. > :23:32.coming back to the north-east of Scotland, I passed through Dundee,
:23:33. > :23:36.which voted yes by a stud -- substantial margin. There was a line
:23:37. > :23:41.of a song I couldn't get out of my head, and old Jacobite song,
:23:42. > :23:48.rewritten by Robert Burns, the last line is, so, tremble falls wakes, in
:23:49. > :23:56.the midst of your glee, you've not seen the last of my bonnets and me.
:23:57. > :23:59.So you are staying a member of the Scottish Parliament, shall we see
:24:00. > :24:07.you again in the House of Commons? What does the future hold for you?
:24:08. > :24:11.Membership of Scottish Parliament is dependent on the good folk of
:24:12. > :24:15.Aberdeenshire east. If they choose to elect me, I will be delighted to
:24:16. > :24:19.serve. I've always loved being a constituency member of Parliament, I
:24:20. > :24:23.have known some front line politicians that regarded that as a
:24:24. > :24:30.chore. I'm not saying they didn t do it properly, I am sure they did But
:24:31. > :24:33.I love it. You get distilled wisdom from being a constituency member of
:24:34. > :24:36.Parliament that helps you keep your feet on the ground and have a good
:24:37. > :24:39.observation as to what matters to people. I have no difficulty with
:24:40. > :24:51.being a constituent member of Parliament. Can you promise me it
:24:52. > :25:01.will never be Lord Salmond? Yes Thanks for joining us. Great
:25:02. > :25:04.pleasure, thank you. Now, the independence referendum is over the
:25:05. > :25:08.next big electoral test is a general election. It is just over seven
:25:09. > :25:15.months away. In a moment I will be talking to Chuka Umunna, but what
:25:16. > :25:20.are the political views of the men and women fighting to win seats for
:25:21. > :25:22.the Labour Party? The Sunday Politics has commissioned an
:25:23. > :25:27.exclusive survey of the Parliamentary candidates.
:25:28. > :25:31.Six out of seven Labour candidates say that the level of public
:25:32. > :25:34.spending during their last period of office was about right. 40% of them
:25:35. > :25:40.want a Labour government to raise taxes to reduce the budget deficit.
:25:41. > :25:44.18% favour cutting spending. On immigration, just 15% think that the
:25:45. > :25:50.number coming to Britain is too high. Only 7% say we generous to
:25:51. > :25:53.immigrants. Three in ten candidates believe the party relationship with
:25:54. > :25:57.trade unions is not close enough. Not that we spoke to think it is too
:25:58. > :26:03.close. Or than half of the candidates say want to scrap the
:26:04. > :26:08.nuclear deterrent, Trident. Four in five want to nationalise the
:26:09. > :26:15.railways. If they are after a change of leader, Yvette Cooper was their
:26:16. > :26:21.preferred choice. Chuka Umunna came in fourth. And he joins me now for
:26:22. > :26:28.the Sunday interview. Why is Labour choosing so many
:26:29. > :26:31.left-wing candidates? I don't think I accept the characterisation of
:26:32. > :26:35.candidates being left wing. I don't think your viewers see politics in
:26:36. > :26:39.terms of what is left and right I think they see it in terms of what
:26:40. > :26:43.is right and wrong. Obviously, many of the things we have been talking
:26:44. > :26:46.about, how we ensure that the next generation can do better than the
:26:47. > :26:50.last, how we raise the wages of your viewers, who are currently working
:26:51. > :26:53.very hard but not making a wage they can live off, that is what they are
:26:54. > :26:58.talking about and that is what the public will judge them on. But they
:26:59. > :27:01.want to raise taxes, they don't want to cut public spending, they want to
:27:02. > :27:05.re-nationalise the railways, they don't think there is too much
:27:06. > :27:08.immigration, they want to scrap Trident. These are all positions
:27:09. > :27:12.clearly to the left of current party policy. But that is your
:27:13. > :27:17.characterisation. If you look at our policy to increase the top rate of
:27:18. > :27:20.tax to 50% for people earning over ?150,000, that is a central
:27:21. > :27:27.position. It is something that enjoys the support of the majority
:27:28. > :27:31.of the public. Trident? If you talk to the British public about
:27:32. > :27:36.immigration, yes, there are concerns about the numbers coming in and out,
:27:37. > :27:39.yes people want to see integration, yes, people want to see people
:27:40. > :27:43.putting a contribution before they take out, the people recognise, if
:27:44. > :27:46.you look at our multicultural nation, we have derived a lot of
:27:47. > :27:50.benefits from immigration. I don't think your characterisation of those
:27:51. > :27:57.positions, that is your view... It's not, it is their view. They are
:27:58. > :28:02.saying... You describe it... You described those positions as left
:28:03. > :28:07.wing positions. I am saying to you that I actually think a lot of those
:28:08. > :28:11.positions are centrist positions that would enjoy the support of the
:28:12. > :28:15.majority of your viewers. I don t think your viewers think the idea of
:28:16. > :28:19.the broadest shoulders bearing the heaviest burden in forms of tax are
:28:20. > :28:24.going to see it as a way out, radical principle. They want to
:28:25. > :28:29.scrap Trident, not party policy It isn't.
:28:30. > :28:35.I think that 73... Well, we will have 400 Parliamentary candidates at
:28:36. > :28:41.the time of the next general election, not including current MPs.
:28:42. > :28:47.This is 73 out of over 400 of them. I think we also need to treat the
:28:48. > :28:52.survey with a bit of caution. They are not representative? You are
:28:53. > :28:54.basically quoting the results of a small percentage of our
:28:55. > :28:58.Parliamentary candidates. It's pretty safe to say when you look at
:28:59. > :29:03.their views, they might be right or wrong, that's not my point, it's
:29:04. > :29:11.fairly safe to say that new Labour is dead? Again, I don't think people
:29:12. > :29:14.see things in terms of gold -- old or new Labour. We are standing at a
:29:15. > :29:20.Labour Party. We are a great country, but we have big challenges.
:29:21. > :29:23.We want to make sure that people can achieve their dreams and aspirations
:29:24. > :29:27.in this country. Too many people are not in that position. Too many
:29:28. > :29:31.people worry about the prospects of their children. Too many people do
:29:32. > :29:34.not earn a wage they can live off. Too many people are worried about
:29:35. > :29:38.the change. We have to make sure we are giving people a stake in the
:29:39. > :29:41.future. That is a Labour thing, you want to call it old or new come I
:29:42. > :29:52.don't care. It's a choice between Labour and the Conservatives in
:29:53. > :29:54.terms of who runs the next government. That one of your
:29:55. > :29:56.candidate we spoke to things that the party's relationship with the
:29:57. > :30:01.unions is to close. 30% of them think it should be closer. You have
:30:02. > :30:07.spoken to 73 out of 400 candidates. Why should the others be any
:30:08. > :30:10.different? It's a fairly representative Sample. Many people
:30:11. > :30:13.working on this set are the member of the union, the National union of
:30:14. > :30:17.journalists. People that came here to this Conference would have been
:30:18. > :30:22.brought here by trade union members. Do you think the relationship should
:30:23. > :30:26.be closer? I think it is where it should be. It should not be closer?
:30:27. > :30:30.I think that trade unions help create wealth in our country. If you
:30:31. > :30:35.look at some other success stories we are in the north-west, GM
:30:36. > :30:39.Vauxhall is there because you have trade unions working in partnership
:30:40. > :30:44.with government and local employees to make sure we kept producing cars.
:30:45. > :30:49.I'm not asking if unions are good or bad, I'm asking if Labour should be
:30:50. > :30:56.closer. You are presupposing, by the tone of your question, that our
:30:57. > :31:00.relationship is a problem. Let's turn to the English question. Why do
:31:01. > :31:03.you need a constitutional conversation where you have to
:31:04. > :31:07.discuss whether English people voting on English matters is
:31:08. > :31:10.unfair? We want to give the regions and cities in England more voice,
:31:11. > :31:17.but let's get it into perspective, we have had a situation where the
:31:18. > :31:23.Scottish people, as desired buying rich people, have to remain part of
:31:24. > :31:27.the UK -- by English people. What is the answer to the question? I don't
:31:28. > :31:30.want to get to a situation where people have voted for solidarity
:31:31. > :31:35.where you have a prime ministers talking about dividing up the UK
:31:36. > :31:40.Parliament. Let me put this point you. Most Scottish voters think it
:31:41. > :31:44.is unfair that Scottish MPs get to vote on English matters. That comes
:31:45. > :31:50.out in Scottish polls. Why don't you see it as unfair? If the Scots see
:31:51. > :31:53.it as unfair, why don't you? This is an age-old conundrum that has been
:31:54. > :31:56.around for 100 years and it's not so simple. You're talking about making
:31:57. > :32:01.a fundamental change to the British constitution on a whim. It's not
:32:02. > :32:08.just an issue, in respect of Scottish MPs. As a London MP, I can
:32:09. > :32:12.vote on matters relating to the transport of England and transport
:32:13. > :32:15.is a devolved matter in London. In Wales, there are a number of
:32:16. > :32:19.competencies that Welsh MPs can vote on and they've been devolved to
:32:20. > :32:23.them. So with all of these different votes, you will exclude different
:32:24. > :32:26.MPs? I think the solution is not necessarily to obsess about what is
:32:27. > :32:31.happening between MPs in Westminster. That turns people
:32:32. > :32:34.politics. We need to devolve more. I think we should be giving the cities
:32:35. > :32:39.and regions of England more autonomy in the way that we are doing in
:32:40. > :32:43.Scotland, but I've got to say, Andrew, it's dishonourable and in
:32:44. > :32:48.bad faith for the Prime Minister to now seek to link what he agreed
:32:49. > :32:52.before the referendum to this issue of English votes for English MPs.
:32:53. > :32:55.That is totally dishonourable and in bad faith. You have promised to
:32:56. > :33:00.devolve more tax powers to Scotland. What would they be? This is being
:33:01. > :33:04.decided at the moment. I cannot give you the exact detail of what the tax
:33:05. > :33:08.powers would be. Could you give us a rough idea? There is a White Paper
:33:09. > :33:14.being produced before November and there will be draft legislation put
:33:15. > :33:18.forward in January. Your leader has vowed that this will happen. And you
:33:19. > :33:21.haven't got a policy? You can't tell us what the tax powers will be? I
:33:22. > :33:26.can't tell you on this programme right now. But we have accepted the
:33:27. > :33:30.principle on further devolution on tax, spending on welfare and we will
:33:31. > :33:33.have further details in due course. Your leader promised to maintain the
:33:34. > :33:38.Barnett Formula for the foreseeable future. Why is that fair when it
:33:39. > :33:42.enshrines more per capita spending for Scotland than it does for Wales,
:33:43. > :33:46.which is poorer, and more than many of the poorer regions in England
:33:47. > :33:51.get? Why is that fair? We have said that in terms of looking at go -
:33:52. > :33:54.local government spending playing out in this Parliament, we have
:33:55. > :33:57.looked at what the government has done which is having already
:33:58. > :34:02.deprived communities having money taken away from them and wealthier
:34:03. > :34:08.communities are getting more. We accept that the Barnett Formula has
:34:09. > :34:11.worked well. How has it works well? There is a cross parliamentary
:34:12. > :34:17.consensus as they don't know what to do about it. Why has it works well,
:34:18. > :34:22.when Wales, clearly loses out? I'm not sure by I accept that when you
:34:23. > :34:26.look at overall underspend -- government spending. It is per
:34:27. > :34:32.capita spending in Scotland, which is way ahead of per capita spending
:34:33. > :34:38.in Wales, but per capita incomes in Scotland are way ahead of Wales Why
:34:39. > :34:42.is that fair Labour politician? We have said we want to have more
:34:43. > :34:46.equitable distribution. You haven't, you have said you will keep the
:34:47. > :34:50.Barnett Formula. I'm not sure necessarily punishing Scotland is
:34:51. > :34:54.the way to go. The way that this debate is going, what message does
:34:55. > :34:59.it send to the Scottish people? I want to be clear, I am delighted
:35:00. > :35:01.with the result we have got. The unity and solidarity where
:35:02. > :35:05.maintaining across the nations of the United Kingdom. All of this
:35:06. > :35:08.separatist talk, setting up different nations of the UK against
:35:09. > :35:12.each other goes completely against what we've all been campaigning for
:35:13. > :35:16.over the last two years, and we shouldn't have any truck with it.
:35:17. > :35:21.Coming onto the announcement on the minimum wage, you would increase it
:35:22. > :35:25.by ?1 50 to take it to ?8, which would be over five years. That is
:35:26. > :35:31.all you are going to do over five years. Have you worked out how much
:35:32. > :35:37.of this increase will be clawed back in taxation and fewer benefits? Work
:35:38. > :35:43.has been done on it. How much? I can't give you an exact figure. The
:35:44. > :35:48.policy pays for itself. The way we have looked at this, we looked at
:35:49. > :35:51.the government figures, and if people are earning more, they would
:35:52. > :35:56.therefore be paying more in income tax and they will be receiving less
:35:57. > :36:00.in benefit and will pay out less in tax credits, so we are confident
:36:01. > :36:03.that this will pay for itself. I'm not asking about the pavement, I'm
:36:04. > :36:09.asking what it means for low paid workers will stop they will get an
:36:10. > :36:14.extra 30p per hour -- about the payment. How much of the 30p to they
:36:15. > :36:18.get to keep? In terms of what they get in the first instance, somebody
:36:19. > :36:22.on the minimum wage now, with our proposal, would get in the region of
:36:23. > :36:27.?3000 a year more than they are at the moment. That is before tax and
:36:28. > :36:35.benefits. How much do they keep I cannot give you an exact figure Why
:36:36. > :36:38.don't you give me an exact figure if you've done the modelling? We are
:36:39. > :36:41.talking about some of the lowest paid people in the country, and I
:36:42. > :36:47.would suggest to you that going down this route, they would face a
:36:48. > :36:51.marginal rate of tax of 50 or 6 % and they will not keep most of this
:36:52. > :36:56.increase you are talking about. I don't accept your figures. But you
:36:57. > :37:01.haven't got any of your own. I just don't have any in my head I can give
:37:02. > :37:05.you right now. Don't you think out policies before you announce them?
:37:06. > :37:08.Of course we think our policies before we announce them but we are
:37:09. > :37:11.confident people have more in their pocket and will be better off with
:37:12. > :37:14.the changes proposed, and we are also seeking to incentivise
:37:15. > :37:18.employers to pay a living wage as well. At the end of the day, as I
:37:19. > :37:22.said, the economy is recovering great, but we know, at the moment,
:37:23. > :37:26.it's still not delivering for a huge number of your viewers and we're
:37:27. > :37:29.determined to do something about it. The status quo is not an option And
:37:30. > :37:35.even joining me. Twice in three days. You can't have too much of a
:37:36. > :37:37.good thing. I am mad. He said that, not me.
:37:38. > :37:39.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. We
:37:40. > :37:42.say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now for
:37:43. > :37:47.Coming up here in twenty minutes, we'll be joined by John Prescott to
:37:48. > :37:50.talk about the challenge facing Labour as their conference starts
:37:51. > :38:00.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:01. > :38:12.Will Scotland's no mean a yds for city leaders here?
:38:13. > :38:15.There is now a political imperative for devolution in England as well
:38:16. > :38:24.We're live from the centre of Manchester.
:38:25. > :38:28.Just behind me, the conference hall where Ed Miliband will tell us
:38:29. > :38:38.on Tuesday why he should be the next Prime Minister.
:38:39. > :38:40.To discuss his chances and the local implications of
:38:41. > :38:43.the Scotland vote is the Labour MP for Garston and Halewood and Shadow
:38:44. > :38:51.And to explain why his partx should get another go at government, Paul
:38:52. > :38:56.Maynard, the MP for Blackpool North and Cleveleys, who's helping to
:38:57. > :39:13.We will be talking about labour 's plan for Britain's future. To make
:39:14. > :39:21.sure that how you `` to makd sure the economy works for everybody and
:39:22. > :39:25.not just the privileged few. We find up and then the north`west when the
:39:26. > :39:30.knock on doors the same dissatisfaction found in Scotland.
:39:31. > :39:34.There are some issues, parthcularly errant having greater power, that
:39:35. > :39:37.are going to resonate at thd conference this week. What do you
:39:38. > :39:41.think will be the following from Scotland to Mac we cannot stop
:39:42. > :39:48.governing the whole of the country just because of one referendum.
:39:49. > :39:58.It is alive political questhon for all parties to deal with. The issue
:39:59. > :40:01.is not going to call we any time soon. Most people want a coffee
:40:02. > :40:12.didn't answer from all of the main parties on how we deal with that. ``
:40:13. > :40:16.most people want a clear answer from all of the main parties.
:40:17. > :40:18."Set our cities free and we'll deliver".
:40:19. > :40:21.That was the message this wdek from the leaders of Liverpool
:40:22. > :40:23.and Manchester as they pressed the case for more local powdrs
:40:24. > :40:33.Business boomed at this Middleton flag factory
:40:34. > :40:36.A yes vote could have meant another bonanza.
:40:37. > :40:39.From a business point of vidw, if the Union flag had have changed,
:40:40. > :40:42.that would have been a phenomenal opportunity for us, but I'm still
:40:43. > :40:45.Now there's a real possibility Scotland's
:40:46. > :40:47.decision will start a revolttion in England's regional governments.
:40:48. > :40:49.Smiles and handshakes between the leaders of Liverpool
:40:50. > :40:51.and Manchester at the recent Global Cities Conference.
:40:52. > :40:53.In Manchester, there's backhng for combined authorities, created
:40:54. > :40:55.to improve transport, econolic development and regeneration.
:40:56. > :40:57.It doesn't add an extra tier of government but it does ghve
:40:58. > :41:09.a basis for extra powers to come down to the locality.
:41:10. > :41:10.The critics of the combined authorities system
:41:11. > :41:13.Actually, the combined authority conshsts
:41:14. > :41:16.They're not directly elected, though.
:41:17. > :41:20.Not directly elected, but bdcause they come from the 10 consthtuent
:41:21. > :41:23.councils of Greater Manchester, there is an accountability right
:41:24. > :41:28.back, through local councillors to everyone within the city region.
:41:29. > :41:31.The Liverpool City Region h`s one too, but there it's not seen
:41:32. > :41:37.You're absolutely right about the argument about colbined
:41:38. > :41:41.Yes, the combined authoritids have a role, but I would like to see
:41:42. > :41:46.more of metro main model in terms of the old sort of county council ways,
:41:47. > :41:53.but without taking on all of the bureaucracy of the county council.
:41:54. > :41:56.Others think it's too early to for the debate.
:41:57. > :41:58.It may be a regional assembly, it may be more powers
:41:59. > :42:04.Something structure has to happen, but let's talk about function first.
:42:05. > :42:08.The winds of change are now about to blow through how England's
:42:09. > :42:11.And with that a renewed focts on how Scotland's public services
:42:12. > :42:15.Because there is a feeling here in Warrington that places
:42:16. > :42:21.If we were in Scotland, the same demography as we h`ve,
:42:22. > :42:24.we would have all the ?1000 every year more in public spending.
:42:25. > :42:27.That is an anomaly that's bden around and we mustn't enshrhne
:42:28. > :42:35.that anomaly in a constituthonal settlement like Scotland.
:42:36. > :42:37.In Manchester, the Union Flag flies to welcome
:42:38. > :42:55.With just a hint of relief, the union itself remains intact for now.
:42:56. > :43:02.In what would Labour offered to the north of England? We need a
:43:03. > :43:08.constitution to establish and to work out what is the best form of
:43:09. > :43:15.anguished air pollution `` the best form of English devolution. We
:43:16. > :43:20.should have that convention and in light of that we should be `ble to
:43:21. > :43:24.come up with a settlement that works for England as well as it works for
:43:25. > :43:27.Scotland, Northern Ireland `nd Wales. We need to make sure that we
:43:28. > :43:32.keep the promise that all the leaders meet to Scotland, to the
:43:33. > :43:35.timetable set. Do you have hdeas yourself of what you would like to
:43:36. > :43:39.see change in the North West Germanic and think we need
:43:40. > :43:49.devolution of more power and responsibility, more money to our
:43:50. > :43:59.English `` our English regions. For you, this is city, regional lead
:44:00. > :44:04.to? Yes. There may be different ways of going forward in different
:44:05. > :44:08.regions. There has been a long`standing process in Scotland
:44:09. > :44:14.got to the settlement that they have. We need some of that `nd the
:44:15. > :44:19.English regions. There is an urgency to get the Westminster issuds right
:44:20. > :44:25.now. But when we move on to further devolution from Westminster then to
:44:26. > :44:30.the regions, the options ard that much greater. Partly, which you did
:44:31. > :44:34.would depend on what your w`nted to achieve with your devolution. What
:44:35. > :44:41.are you planning to achieve? To my mind, it needs to be a economic
:44:42. > :44:49.development. We have a masshve productivity gap that needs to be
:44:50. > :44:55.overcome. I don't want to sde Lancashire left out of the picture,
:44:56. > :44:59.or Cheshire left out of the picture. But you don't want Lancashire to be
:45:00. > :45:04.left out, do you have ideas for how they should not be let out `` left
:45:05. > :45:09.out? It is about what you w`nt to achieve what your devolution, and if
:45:10. > :45:14.it is about economic development, that has to focus on transport and
:45:15. > :45:18.infrastructure. Greater Manchester has immediately it straight. I want
:45:19. > :45:21.to see the same idea in Lancashire, where they can have the samd `` more
:45:22. > :45:25.control over their own resotrces. And we're also joined now bx
:45:26. > :45:39.Jon Tonge, Professor of Polhtics What is the difference with what the
:45:40. > :45:42.parties are offering here two goodbye to extend the powers of
:45:43. > :45:45.local taxation. We should bd careful about competing Scotland and Wales
:45:46. > :45:49.with what is happening in the north`west. The fact is that
:45:50. > :45:55.evolution to a region is very different to devolution to ` region.
:45:56. > :45:59.Must have of the Scots 40 to leave leave the UK the other day. It is
:46:00. > :46:04.not the same as in the north`west. Devolution as an idea that has been
:46:05. > :46:09.kicking around for a long thme. Ten years ago, the idea was that we
:46:10. > :46:13.would have their portion `` emotion from `` for the whole of thd
:46:14. > :46:21.north`west. That was rejectdd by the north`east. What happens to the
:46:22. > :46:27.shires, Lancashire or Cheshhre? We have to exceed the unit of
:46:28. > :46:30.devolution. Lets quality centralisation. Is there a danger
:46:31. > :46:37.that if you do that, you end up with anomalies. Yes. Let's face ht,
:46:38. > :46:44.regional e`mail `` inequality is not going to be solved by devolttion to
:46:45. > :46:53.the north`west. Frankly, regional equality `` inequality could be
:46:54. > :46:56.increased by devolution. Is it drew something that gets people talking
:46:57. > :47:04.and street? At the editor of devolving power to the north`west?
:47:05. > :47:08.Maria says it does. If you do decentralise more powers, do you
:47:09. > :47:15.then have to respond to that by giving more accountability, more
:47:16. > :47:20.democratic accountability? We have a directly elected mayor. Not a
:47:21. > :47:25.regional one. Not at present. Weezer Convention to get this right. That's
:47:26. > :47:31.because we need consensus along all the different interests that Paul
:47:32. > :47:43.and John have talked about. `` we need a convention to get th`t
:47:44. > :47:49.straight. Scottish people w`nt more power and authority commenddd them
:47:50. > :47:53.were locally. Constitutional Convention will make sure that we
:47:54. > :47:57.get that great. What will not work as a stitch up from the Prile
:47:58. > :48:07.Minister just because he thhnks that he will lose the next electhon.
:48:08. > :48:12.Quick response to that? You cannot get these things into the long
:48:13. > :48:20.grass. Constitutional Convention will not keep my constituents happy.
:48:21. > :48:27.We cannot avoid answering these questions, we have to do with it
:48:28. > :48:54.now. That is the Scotland forward. `` the Scotland forward.
:48:55. > :48:56.Well, it's unlikely to prodtce an 85% turnout, but
:48:57. > :48:59.On Tuesday, the Labour leader Ed Miliband will
:49:00. > :49:02.make his case to be our next Prime Minister just behind le.
:49:03. > :49:06.To do that, he'll have to whn back voters in some of the 12 North West
:49:07. > :49:10.Our reporter Claire Hamilton's been to one of them.
:49:11. > :49:12.Pendle's rolling hills have witnessed a sinister
:49:13. > :49:15.Its politics less so, though next May, Labour and the Conserv`tives
:49:16. > :49:18.Places like Pendle have been hit massively.
:49:19. > :49:20.Labour's candidate believes this health centre, built under the last
:49:21. > :49:23.Labour MP, is symptomatic of what is wrong with the current government.
:49:24. > :49:26.They are struggling to see their GP, their children or grandchildren are
:49:27. > :49:29.struggling to get a job and the jobs they get are low paid.
:49:30. > :49:32.They are struggling to get `ccess to see a consultant at hospital
:49:33. > :49:35.and they cannot get the child into the primary school that they
:49:36. > :49:39.The charge for both Labour and the Conservatives here hs to
:49:40. > :49:41.think new ways to regeneratd Pendle, making its industrial history its
:49:42. > :49:45.Brierfield Mill, built in the 1 30s, could be the biggest regeneration
:49:46. > :49:50.Current MP Andrew Stevenson is convinced its salvation
:49:51. > :49:53.He is more cautiously optimhstic about his own chances
:49:54. > :49:57.Two thirds of its history it has been a Labour seat,
:49:58. > :49:59.the local Labour Party are very well`financed, they have received
:50:00. > :50:03.over ?200,000 in donations `lready this year, so it's going to be a
:50:04. > :50:06.I have really been a pro`business MP,
:50:07. > :50:11.There is a lot we can be proud of here in Pendle.
:50:12. > :50:13.But has he done enough to convince the voters in Pendle
:50:14. > :50:18.I need to see some results hn where they've actually helped the public.
:50:19. > :50:20.The coalition government at the moment probably have not
:50:21. > :50:23.spoken as well as they could have done to the people of Pendld.
:50:24. > :50:26.There's more people in work at the moment so I can't re`lly
:50:27. > :50:30.In Nelson, the blight of a Labour housing project scrapped under
:50:31. > :50:33.Local councillor Mohammed Ipbal says too much is made of Ed Miliband s
:50:34. > :50:36.Nobody has ever raised the hssue of Ed Miliband's leadership,
:50:37. > :50:38.more recently, and previously leaders of the Labour Party.
:50:39. > :50:40.What people are really concdrned about is how they get food
:50:41. > :50:43.on the table, how they get good education for their children
:50:44. > :50:48.Labour lost Pendle after 18 years by just 3,500 votes in 2010.
:50:49. > :50:55.Overturning the Tories 8% m`jority here would set Mr Miliband closer
:50:56. > :51:03.Our reporter Mark Edwardson's been over to
:51:04. > :51:15.The mood is pretty boring hdre at the moment. You can see that
:51:16. > :51:18.delegates and politicians are moving through the main hall on thd way to
:51:19. > :51:24.the conference hall which is just behind that black cartoon. Lots of
:51:25. > :51:29.different organisations, sole of them on the left wing, many unions
:51:30. > :51:38.are here, of course, quite ` lot of animal rights organisations, and the
:51:39. > :51:44.tech firms are here also. F`cebook is here. They are here to advise
:51:45. > :51:54.people about fitting elections on social media. Perhaps a sign of the
:51:55. > :51:59.future. Welcome to the problem. Earlier this year you called for
:52:00. > :52:05.what you make call new blood at the top of the party. Have a lesson to
:52:06. > :52:11.you? It is still the same. Individually, they are good.
:52:12. > :52:15.Collectively they are not the could have been. I hope they will begin.
:52:16. > :52:20.Maybe we will have a reshuffle very quickly. I think we should. We are
:52:21. > :52:26.starting a general election campaign and we have to focus on what is
:52:27. > :52:36.important to people. We havd to focus on building houses, ddaling
:52:37. > :52:39.with low pay. You were highly critical of how Labour fought to the
:52:40. > :52:45.local and European elections earlier this year. Have they listendd? I
:52:46. > :52:49.think the electorate is listening. I hope the leadership is listdning.
:52:50. > :52:55.That was a dry run which we did not do very well. We have to le`rn the
:52:56. > :53:00.lessons. Making mistakes once is OK. Repeating it would be an absolute
:53:01. > :53:05.tragedy. That is why we to get Ed Miliband to focus on things that are
:53:06. > :53:10.vitally important. Tell us what are the changes needed before md to make
:53:11. > :53:13.it successful for Labour? Bhtter organisations that members of the
:53:14. > :53:18.Shadow Cabinet are well org`nised. Stop making silly mistakes. People
:53:19. > :53:22.turning up and not knowing the names of local people. The biggest mistake
:53:23. > :53:25.of the European election was Ed Miliband not knowing the pr`ise of
:53:26. > :53:36.his own shopping list. That was a core issue in the sham `` c`mpaign.
:53:37. > :53:50.Thank you for joining us. What are the challenges that Labour
:53:51. > :53:54.faces this week? When we did this programme last year from thd
:53:55. > :53:59.Conservative Party conference, labourer's Paul Reed was in double
:54:00. > :54:03.figures. At the moment it is only at 6%. Ed Miliband has to make a speech
:54:04. > :54:06.this week which will be at night not only the faithful but give sense
:54:07. > :54:16.that they can capture the sdat that they lost last time, partictlarly in
:54:17. > :54:19.Lancashire. `` capture the seats. What is the economic narrathve year
:54:20. > :54:24.two the first thing Labour has to do is that they have a tough
:54:25. > :54:39.by`election. Talking to a sdnior Labour councillor, they are worried
:54:40. > :54:49.about the UK challenge to L`bour. `` Ukip. Ed Miliband is right hn one
:54:50. > :54:56.sense, that it is not a recovery for all. You're going in reversd. I did
:54:57. > :55:00.not see it like that. The ndxt election as an important ond, but it
:55:01. > :55:05.was always going to be a close one. Labour is trying to be a ond term
:55:06. > :55:08.opposition, not something that we are always able to do. I am
:55:09. > :55:12.confident that we will be able to do it. The issue here this week is
:55:13. > :55:16.proving to people across thd north`west that we can have an
:55:17. > :55:21.economic recovery and a recovery that works for everyone, not just a
:55:22. > :55:24.privileged few. What people are finding at the moment is th`t they
:55:25. > :55:29.are being told things are bdtter, but their own wages are stagnant or
:55:30. > :55:34.going down, they are on zero hours contracts which means they cannot
:55:35. > :55:37.pay the rent or their mortg`ge. You have told us that the government cut
:55:38. > :55:51.spending, we would spiral into recession
:55:52. > :56:04.dishes making sure that everybody has a C. `` the issue is th`t
:56:05. > :56:08.everybody has a C. It is for everyday working people, not just
:56:09. > :56:12.for Accu privileged people `t the top. One issue will be the leader
:56:13. > :56:17.and the leader's speech. We just heard your colleague saying that the
:56:18. > :56:25.team is not good enough. He is calling for a reshuffle of the
:56:26. > :56:29.Shadow Cabinet. I am sure that he, as always, is ready with his views.
:56:30. > :56:34.I think it is quite to make commitments and speech this week. I
:56:35. > :56:40.think he has a team around him that is ready to help Labour when the
:56:41. > :56:45.next election. Is he right that the Labour team has to up its g`me? We
:56:46. > :56:53.all want to of the time. We need to needed as well as we possibly can.
:56:54. > :56:56.We have an obligation to thd people of the country to provide them with
:56:57. > :57:01.an alternative to this appalling government. 1 million peopld having
:57:02. > :57:05.to visit food banks in order to eat in one of the richest countries in
:57:06. > :57:10.the world. That is not an acceptable way of going forward. Your colleague
:57:11. > :57:15.in Pendle said that it will be a huge challenge to hold on to as a
:57:16. > :57:22.marginal constituency. Will it be the same for you? You don't take an
:57:23. > :57:26.election result from planted. He is working as hard as I am to lake sure
:57:27. > :57:30.that we are doing the best job in a constituency. Why are you both so up
:57:31. > :57:37.against it? Because we have majority and that is the nature of ddmocracy.
:57:38. > :57:40.What I hear in my constituency is genuine positivity. People can see
:57:41. > :57:45.that we have a long`term economic plan to make sure that the dconomy
:57:46. > :57:49.will keep on going. What thdy do not want to do is replicate France and
:57:50. > :57:55.Germany. Labourer's economic model will end in cases. People w`nt to
:57:56. > :57:59.that the people in charge of the country are going in the right
:58:00. > :58:04.direction. You are helping drop Paul `` policies for the Conserv`tive
:58:05. > :58:08.Party. What will you, but that will combat Labour on those issuds of the
:58:09. > :58:13.cost of living? The keyword from years and security. It is economic,
:58:14. > :58:16.financial security. Knowing that the government is in charge of things
:58:17. > :58:21.and heading in the right direction, not making things up as thex go
:58:22. > :58:30.repeating the same mistakes of the past, that lenders into crisis. ..
:58:31. > :58:35.People are on zero hours contracts, they cannot afford to pay the rent,
:58:36. > :58:38.thinking about visiting a feedback... A French model will lead
:58:39. > :58:42.to a French model will lead to higher unemployment. Thank xou for
:58:43. > :58:45.being with others this week. Time for a look at the rest
:58:46. > :58:49.of the week's news now. Muslim groups have called
:58:50. > :58:51.for the release of the Islalic State The Foreign Secretary,
:58:52. > :58:54.said British forces could not rescue the aid worker from Eccles, because
:58:55. > :58:57.they do not know where he is. We are dealing with
:58:58. > :59:03.a very barbaric organisation. Labour's parliamentary candhdate for
:59:04. > :59:05.St Helens South was arrested over an alleged assault at a Scottish
:59:06. > :59:10.referendum polling station. Marie Rimmer's the former ldader
:59:11. > :59:13.of St Helens council. Fylde councillors have objected to
:59:14. > :59:17.Cuadrilla's planning applic`tions to drill for shale gas at Rose`cre Wood
:59:18. > :59:21.and Little Plumpton. Lancashire County Council whll
:59:22. > :59:25.make the final decision. There'll be five candidates for the
:59:26. > :59:28.Heywood and Middleton by`eldction. The vote
:59:29. > :59:30.on 9th October was triggered by And building a new future
:59:31. > :59:36.for the Blues. Everton Football Club and
:59:37. > :59:39.Liverpool City Council have agreed on plans for a new stadium `t
:59:40. > :59:42.Walton Hall Park. It ends a decade`long search
:59:43. > :00:01.for a site. How much to party conferencds still
:00:02. > :00:10.matter? I think they are ch`nging in nature. We have so many lobbyists
:00:11. > :00:14.and hangers on, that some of the meaning has been lost. Many cannot
:00:15. > :00:21.afford to come anyway. It is changing. Ideally a viable part of
:00:22. > :00:30.our democracy two I am less certain of that. `` are at the viable part
:00:31. > :00:36.of our democracy? I am not certain of that. I think our confiddnce is
:00:37. > :00:41.coming more relevant. It was a bit stage`managed in the past, whistled
:00:42. > :00:46.these days. I have been comhng along to him. There are some people I only
:00:47. > :00:50.see once a year at the confdrence. It is a great gathering of the party
:00:51. > :00:51.faithful and it is important for that. Thank you very much.
:00:52. > :00:56.And next week we'll be lookhng ahead to the Conservative Party Conference
:00:57. > :00:58.the Conservative mayor's policy No more time I'm afraid. Andrew, back
:00:59. > :01:06.to you. Welcome back the to Labour
:01:07. > :01:08.conference, where we're joined by the latest hot new stand-up
:01:09. > :01:11.comedian on the Manchester circuit. I speak of course of former Deputy
:01:12. > :01:17.Prime Minister John Prescott. In between giving tub-thumping
:01:18. > :01:18.speeches to rally the party faithful this week,
:01:19. > :01:22.he's appearing at the Comedy Store. He was also of course the man
:01:23. > :01:34.behind the last attempt to solve Our political panel is with me as
:01:35. > :01:38.well. John, we have got Scottish votes for Scottish laws, and more
:01:39. > :01:42.Scottish votes for Scottish laws, why not English votes for English
:01:43. > :01:46.laws? That's an English parliament in a major constitutional change and
:01:47. > :01:50.that is what has started. I certainly don't agree with that I
:01:51. > :01:54.campaign for powers to be given to the regions. When I first tested it
:01:55. > :01:57.in the Northeast, I lost. Why? Because they said they were not the
:01:58. > :02:04.same powers you are giving to Scotland. So, basically, we must do
:02:05. > :02:09.that, decentralised, not just with a Westminster Parliament. As you know,
:02:10. > :02:15.in 32 years I produce the alternative. You've kept that for 32
:02:16. > :02:19.years? I took it off my shelf and everybody was talking about it now,
:02:20. > :02:24.but they weren't in 1982. This was my five plan. 200 meetings all
:02:25. > :02:30.around the country -- five-year plan. You wrote this morning, not 35
:02:31. > :02:34.years ago, that this was a plot to turn Westminster into a Tory
:02:35. > :02:40.dominated English parliament. But if that is how England had voted, it's
:02:41. > :02:44.not a plot, it's democracy. You can get reform in a more federal
:02:45. > :02:47.structure, and even English parliament does fit into the federal
:02:48. > :02:51.structure and that is what the Liberals say, but you need a fairer
:02:52. > :02:55.representation. It might be quite radical, and we could get rid of the
:02:56. > :03:01.Lord's, and have representation in the region there. It can't be done
:03:02. > :03:06.in two weeks. Alex Salmond, he's assuming he has been sold out, and
:03:07. > :03:10.it was less than a week ago they remain the announcement. We have to
:03:11. > :03:13.get it carried out will stop but don't connect it to the English
:03:14. > :03:19.parliament that fixes it in their favour. It may be pretty low
:03:20. > :03:25.politics from David Cameron to come up with something that was not in
:03:26. > :03:28.the vowel -- a bow on the front page of the daily record, but if they do
:03:29. > :03:32.not agree with what he said at the time of the general election, he
:03:33. > :03:36.will say two in which voters, if you want real protection in England
:03:37. > :03:40.vote Conservative, and if you want Scottish MPs deciding on your level
:03:41. > :03:44.of taxation, vote Labour. He is scared to death of UKIP may have
:03:45. > :03:48.been saying it for a while. In the constitutional changes have to see
:03:49. > :03:52.what is fair and equitable, the same with the Barnett fallen -- formula.
:03:53. > :03:56.But what you have to do is get a fair system. It takes time to
:03:57. > :04:00.discuss it. I was doing a 32 years ago and nobody wanted to know. We
:04:01. > :04:04.had better start a debate, and don't mixed up the constitutional type of
:04:05. > :04:10.English parliament with what we are promising in Scotland. It is about
:04:11. > :04:15.trust and politics. So the turnout of the north-east regional assembly
:04:16. > :04:19.and they voted against it. The turnout that the police and crime
:04:20. > :04:22.commissioners was low. How'd you get people interested in the process and
:04:23. > :04:26.it doesn't feel like a conversation in smoky rooms and you go back to
:04:27. > :04:31.British people and tell them what you decided? If you look at the
:04:32. > :04:34.turnout in Scotland whether they were interested in, now it is
:04:35. > :04:37.phenomenally interesting. It is about real power, having real
:04:38. > :04:41.influence. What they said to me in the north-east, they said we know
:04:42. > :04:44.you have an idea for devolution and you will give us assemblies but it
:04:45. > :04:48.doesn't have the power of Scotland, but now we are talking about
:04:49. > :04:51.equity, similar distribution of power and similar resources. The
:04:52. > :04:57.English people are entitled to that. They have been robbed of it for too
:04:58. > :05:00.long. Labour has long struggled with what it should do over devolving
:05:01. > :05:04.power to the regions and you came up with regional assemblies. Ed
:05:05. > :05:08.Miliband has a different idea of city regions. Aren't they the same
:05:09. > :05:12.idea of yours but without a democratic accountability? Can we
:05:13. > :05:15.really trust the greater region of Manchester or Birmingham to deliver
:05:16. > :05:22.if there is not the same kind of democratic link with the people I
:05:23. > :05:27.live in whole, and it stops on the boundary of the Pennines -- the city
:05:28. > :05:30.of Hull. We have city regions from Labour because I failed in the
:05:31. > :05:34.north-east to get the assemblies in, and now we have to look at those
:05:35. > :05:38.options. Do you work through city regions? Mainly in the north, I
:05:39. > :05:41.might say. Even the federal structure they talk about my be in
:05:42. > :05:45.the North or Midlands with Birmingham, but there are a number
:05:46. > :05:49.of options and that is where I believe that what the White Paper
:05:50. > :05:53.should do is to put those options in. Instead of having to put them
:05:54. > :05:57.together, state what you want to do in the English regions. Leave it to
:05:58. > :06:01.the legislation, which is what will happen with the Scottish, and once
:06:02. > :06:05.you've agreed it, you do it after. You have to start the radical debate
:06:06. > :06:10.about giving the English regions, not centralised in London, but
:06:11. > :06:13.decentralised. Do you need to have a separate English parliament?
:06:14. > :06:18.Wouldn't it just satisfy the English if you simply said to MPs, when it's
:06:19. > :06:22.in English matter in the House of Commons, stop interfering? I would
:06:23. > :06:27.disagree with that. I would say put the option in the White Paper. The
:06:28. > :06:30.White Paper seems to be talking about Scotland. If you don't put the
:06:31. > :06:35.commitments to what you want to do with the English regions, people
:06:36. > :06:39.might say I'm not supporting that. Put the framework in the White
:06:40. > :06:43.Paper, but a different timetable. Devolution in this country has been
:06:44. > :06:47.to a different timetable, whether it's Wales, Northern Ireland. Start
:06:48. > :06:54.looking fundamentally at it and the Labour Party should be leading the
:06:55. > :06:58.debate. Let's come the no campaign lost Glasgow. The cradle of British
:06:59. > :07:01.socialism. -- let's come to something that happened with the
:07:02. > :07:05.referendum as the no campaign lost Glasgow. Is it a sign that the
:07:06. > :07:11.Labour Party are finding it hard to what -- hold on to their traditional
:07:12. > :07:13.working class vote question mark its different in Manchester. They would
:07:14. > :07:23.say it is a message about decentralisation. If we change the
:07:24. > :07:27.message a bit maybe. We have been thinking that now it is that either
:07:28. > :07:32.the Labour Party to recognise it is not the old message and old areas
:07:33. > :07:35.that will win it. I remember covering the 1997 referendum in
:07:36. > :07:39.Scotland and you gave a tub thumping speech in a big hall in Hamilton and
:07:40. > :07:42.you really connected. Obviously it was a different referendum because
:07:43. > :07:47.that was about a parliament, not independence and Alex Salmond was on
:07:48. > :07:51.your side, but you, and Ingush MP, an English minister, connected to
:07:52. > :07:59.the core Labour voters in a way that Ed Miliband is failing to do -- an
:08:00. > :08:04.English MP. You make a fair point. In the big rally, I had to point out
:08:05. > :08:10.I was Welsh. Enough of this. Get on with it. What I was saying there was
:08:11. > :08:15.that I supported you, as I did for 30 odd years when Labour MPs were
:08:16. > :08:18.against any thinker Scotland. I support you, but I expect you to
:08:19. > :08:23.come in with your Scottish MPs and make sure the English get their
:08:24. > :08:27.share of the powers and resources and that is what that speech was
:08:28. > :08:32.about, and by God, it's as relevant today as it was then. I haven't got
:08:33. > :08:39.any Scottish MPs, I live in Knightsbridge. Did you get the vote?
:08:40. > :08:47.No. What would you have done? I can't tell you. You would have voted
:08:48. > :08:54.yes, come on. I'm interested. What do you want to hear from the speech
:08:55. > :08:58.by Ed Miliband? People are wondering about where Labour stands. There are
:08:59. > :09:05.many issues we have flown around, and we've done the discussion just
:09:06. > :09:08.now. What he has got to do where he started off on the minimum wage You
:09:09. > :09:13.are trying to deal with those left behind. Those are the bottom. That
:09:14. > :09:16.is the Labour message. The National Health Service is our creation and
:09:17. > :09:19.we have to say it will be saved If you can save all of these bankers
:09:20. > :09:23.with all the money and say you haven't got the money for the NHS,
:09:24. > :09:28.say where we stand. That will be the priority. The third one, housing. I
:09:29. > :09:32.have had a revolutionary idea that you can buy a house without a
:09:33. > :09:37.deposit and without the interest or paying the stamp duty, and you buy
:09:38. > :09:42.it by rent. The government gives ?150 billion guaranteed housing for
:09:43. > :09:45.up to 600,000. Get down to ordinary people who can use their rent to buy
:09:46. > :09:49.the house. It's happening in the north-east. Why are they not
:09:50. > :09:53.listening to you? You have said more to connect with ordinary people in
:09:54. > :09:58.three minutes than we will probably hear in an hour. I've been telling
:09:59. > :10:02.them, made, and we have a commission coming out. People don't want
:10:03. > :10:05.commissions, they want action. I say, I know what we do, housing
:10:06. > :10:12.health, the people. say, I know what we do, housing
:10:13. > :10:16.That a lot of people run away. I think in Glasgow, they wondered
:10:17. > :10:19.about that. If you turn up on the same three platforms, and I know
:10:20. > :10:23.it's a critical thing to say, they think in Scotland it is a coalition.
:10:24. > :10:29.I don't like coalitions. It looks like a coalition, didn't it? Maybe
:10:30. > :10:32.it was saved because Rupert Murdoch started the The Times about the
:10:33. > :10:39.polls and he couldn't even get the sun to say that they wanted. We
:10:40. > :10:44.haven't got time. I wondered how long it would take is to get to
:10:45. > :10:49.repot Murdoch. You beat the record. -- to Rupert Murdoch. Labour is
:10:50. > :10:52.quite behind on the economy, and people are looking at Labour, trying
:10:53. > :10:58.to work out if they can trust you to the stewards of the economy given
:10:59. > :11:01.2010. Under Labour 's plans there is 20 billion of cuts to make in the
:11:02. > :11:09.next Parliament. Will we hear anything about that? It is about the
:11:10. > :11:13.proportion of debt to GDP. I know it sounds historic, but our debt when
:11:14. > :11:18.we came in in 1997 was a proportion of GDP, and you must know this, and
:11:19. > :11:24.that was less than Thatcher's. Why did we get done on debt? You guys
:11:25. > :11:29.run around saying a lot about it, but the fact is it was worse under
:11:30. > :11:34.Thatcher. Thatcher is now seen as a hero. If you look at the debt, it is
:11:35. > :11:38.still a problem. Gordon Brown did an awful lot to solve those problems,
:11:39. > :11:42.but they were still left with us. What we have to have is a sensible
:11:43. > :11:46.discussion like we had on devolution and now we are talking about
:11:47. > :11:50.finances. Let's look at the public sector debt and the price we pay. We
:11:51. > :11:53.need to be putting the record straight. The problem is they tell
:11:54. > :11:57.me, John, we have to look to the future not the past. We are getting
:11:58. > :12:00.screwed on the past and we have to change it and perhaps Gordon Brown
:12:01. > :12:07.coming in could do something. Finishing on the future, when we did
:12:08. > :12:12.a poll of the Labour candidates you were watching on the big screen
:12:13. > :12:18.when it came up that their favourite to succeed Ed Miliband was Yvette
:12:19. > :12:26.Cooper, why did you shout no! That is alive. -- alive. -- that is not
:12:27. > :12:36.true. I know resistance is not strong. What did that mean?
:12:37. > :12:45.You can't get away with anything at a Conference, John. I was dropping
:12:46. > :12:52.comments them to pick up everywhere, I do not wear -- nowhere they got
:12:53. > :12:57.that one from. Good to have you back. Round of applause for former
:12:58. > :12:59.Deputy Prime Minister. That's it for today. Don't applaud them, they are
:13:00. > :13:00.useless. my guests. I'll be back here at
:13:01. > :13:05.Labour conference for the Daily 11:30am tomorrow when we'll bring
:13:06. > :13:10.you live coverage of the speech by We're here all week, and next Sunday
:13:11. > :13:14.you can find us in Birmingham for Remember if it's Sunday,
:13:15. > :13:22.it's the Sunday Politics.