:00:38. > :00:41.Morning folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.Theresa May says she'll deliver on Brexit but does that mean leaving
:00:45. > :00:48.the EU's Single Market and the Customs Union?
:00:49. > :00:51.Tory MPs campaign for a commitment from the Prime
:00:52. > :01:03.The Chancellor pledges just over a billion pounds worth of spending
:01:04. > :01:10.on Britain's roads but is that it or will there be
:01:11. > :01:16.Their last leader was just 18 days in the job.
:01:17. > :01:19.And in the Northwest: What has the Chancellor got planned for us?
:01:20. > :01:21.Plus, we'll cut to the chase for what devolution could
:01:22. > :01:30.in London: Is the battle for Richmond Park based on the skies? Or
:01:31. > :01:38.is it about a bigger conflict in Europe?
:01:39. > :01:41.And with me - as always - and, no, these three aren't doing
:01:42. > :01:46.the Mannequin challenge - it's our dynamic, demonstrative,
:01:47. > :01:48.dazzling political panel - Helen Lewis, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:49. > :01:51.and Tom Newton Dunn they'll also be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:52. > :01:57.First this morning - Theresa May has said
:01:58. > :01:59."Brexit means Brexit" - but can the Prime Minister -
:02:00. > :02:02.who was on the Remain side of argument during the referendum
:02:03. > :02:10.Well, Leave-supporting Tory MPs are re-launching
:02:11. > :02:17.the "European Research Group" this morning to keep Mrs May's feet
:02:18. > :02:27.Are you worried that you cannot trust Theresa May until payment to
:02:28. > :02:33.deliver full Brexit was Magellan like I totally trust Theresa May,
:02:34. > :02:36.100% behind her. She has displayed a massive amount of commitment to
:02:37. > :02:40.making a success of Brexit for the country.
:02:41. > :02:44.We don't know that yet, because nothing has happened. Why, then,
:02:45. > :02:51.have you formed a pressure group? We were fed up with the negativity
:02:52. > :02:55.coming out around Brexit. I feel positive about the opportunities we
:02:56. > :02:58.face, and we are a group to provide suggestions. Who do you have in mind
:02:59. > :03:05.when you talk about negativity - the Chancellor? No, from the Lib Dems,
:03:06. > :03:11.for example, from Labour MPs. This is a pressure group for leaving
:03:12. > :03:17.membership of the single market and customs union, correct? That is what
:03:18. > :03:20.we are proposing. It has a purpose other than just to combat
:03:21. > :03:24.negativity. When it comes to membership of the single market and
:03:25. > :03:29.the customs union, can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:30. > :03:32.both or either? Rightly, the Government hasn't made the position
:03:33. > :03:37.clear, and I think that is the right approach, because we don't want to
:03:38. > :03:44.review our negotiating hand. What we're saying... I'm not asking what
:03:45. > :03:47.you are saying. Can you tell us what Government policy is towards
:03:48. > :03:52.membership of these institutions? The Government wants to make sure
:03:53. > :03:56.British businesses have the right to trade with EU partners, to forge new
:03:57. > :04:03.trade deals with the rest of the world. We hope to Reza may speak at
:04:04. > :04:07.Mansion house this week. -- we had Theresa May speak at Mansion house
:04:08. > :04:12.this week. She has been clear, saying it was not a binary choice.
:04:13. > :04:16.And she's right. Let's run that tape, because I want to pick up on
:04:17. > :04:20.what she did say. This is what she had to say about the customs union
:04:21. > :04:26.at Prime Minister's Question Time. On the whole question of the customs
:04:27. > :04:28.union, trading relationships that we have with the European Union and
:04:29. > :04:34.other parts of the world once we have left the European Union, we are
:04:35. > :04:44.preparing carefully for the formal negotiations. We are preparing
:04:45. > :04:47.carefully for the formal negotiations. We want to ensure we
:04:48. > :04:53.have the best possible trading deal with the EU once we have left. Do
:04:54. > :04:57.you know what she means when she says being in the customs union is
:04:58. > :05:00.not a binary choice? I think she's right when she says that. At the
:05:01. > :05:05.moment, and you know this, as long as we are in the customs union, we
:05:06. > :05:09.cannot set our own tariffs or rules, cannot have a free trade agreement
:05:10. > :05:15.with the US or China. We need to leave a customs union to do that.
:05:16. > :05:19.Binary means either you are in or you are out, self which is it? We
:05:20. > :05:23.still want to trade with the EU, and I think we can have a free trade
:05:24. > :05:29.agreement with the EU. That is a separate matter, and it has to do
:05:30. > :05:34.with the single market. What about the customs union? We need to leave
:05:35. > :05:38.the customs union. We do it and properly. That is how to get the
:05:39. > :05:42.most out of this opportunity. Summit is a binary choice? The Prime
:05:43. > :05:47.Minister is right when she says it's not a binary choice. Both can't be
:05:48. > :05:55.right. We can leave the customs union, get their benefits, and have
:05:56. > :06:00.a free trade agreement with zero tariffs with the EU. So it is a
:06:01. > :06:03.binary choice an either be stale really. Yellow like I am saying the
:06:04. > :06:09.Prime Minister is right when she says it is not a binary choice. -- I
:06:10. > :06:18.am saying the Prime Minister is right. We need clarity. Youth had
:06:19. > :06:22.said -- you have said it is a binary choice. We need to leave the
:06:23. > :06:26.constraints of the customs union. It pushes up prices. The EU is not
:06:27. > :06:30.securing the right trade deals, and if we want to make the most of it,
:06:31. > :06:35.we need to get out there and get some deals going. Do you accept that
:06:36. > :06:40.if we remain in the customs union, we cannot do our own free-trade
:06:41. > :06:56.deals? Yellow right 100%. That is why we have to leave. -- 100%. Do
:06:57. > :07:00.you accept that if we leave the customs union but stay with
:07:01. > :07:03.substantial access, I don't say membership, but substantial access
:07:04. > :07:06.to the single market, that goods going from this country to the
:07:07. > :07:12.single market because we're no longer in the union will be subject
:07:13. > :07:20.to complicated rules of origin regulations, which could cost
:07:21. > :07:24.business ?13 billion a year? I would like to see a free-trade agreement
:07:25. > :07:28.between the UK and the EU. Look at the Canadian deal. I give you that,
:07:29. > :07:33.but if we're not in the customs union, things that we bring in on
:07:34. > :07:37.our own tariffs once we've left, we can't just export again willy-nilly
:07:38. > :07:41.to the EU. They will demand to see rules of origin. Norway has to do
:07:42. > :07:47.that at the moment and it is highly complicated expensive. I think if we
:07:48. > :07:50.agree a particular arrangement as part of this agreement with the EU,
:07:51. > :07:57.we can reach an agreement on that which sets a lower standard, which
:07:58. > :08:01.sets a different level of tariffs, which protects some of our
:08:02. > :08:06.industries. Let's suppose we have pretty much free trade with the EU
:08:07. > :08:10.but we are out of the customs union, and let's suppose that the European
:08:11. > :08:19.Union has a 20% tariff on Japanese whisky and we decide to have a 0%
:08:20. > :08:23.tariff - what then happens to the whisky that comes into Britain and
:08:24. > :08:28.goes on to the EU? The EU will not let that in. That will be part of
:08:29. > :08:35.the negotiation. I think there is a huge benefit for external operators.
:08:36. > :08:38.Every bottle of Japanese whisky, they will have to work out the rules
:08:39. > :08:44.of origin. There have been studies that show there is a potential for
:08:45. > :08:50.50% increase in global product if we leave. We're losing the benefits of
:08:51. > :08:51.free trade. I understand, I am asking for your particular view.
:08:52. > :09:00.Thank you for that. Is it not surprising Mr Hannan could
:09:01. > :09:04.not bring himself to say we would leave the customs union? It is
:09:05. > :09:10.messy. The reason there is this new group of Tory MPs signing up to a
:09:11. > :09:15.campaign to make sure we get a genuine Brexit is because there is
:09:16. > :09:20.this vacuum. It is being filled with all sorts of briefing from the other
:09:21. > :09:25.side. There is a real risk in the minds of Brexit supporting MPs that
:09:26. > :09:27.the remaining side are going to try to hijack the process, not only
:09:28. > :09:34.through the Supreme Court action, which I think most Brexit MPs seem
:09:35. > :09:39.to accept the appeal will fail, but further down the line, through
:09:40. > :09:43.amendments to the great repeal bill. This is a pressure group to try to
:09:44. > :09:47.hold the Prime Minister to account. There is plenty of pressure on the
:09:48. > :09:52.Prime Minister effectively to stay in the single market and the customs
:09:53. > :09:58.union, and if you do both of these things, de facto, you have stayed in
:09:59. > :10:01.the EU. She is in a difficult position because there is no good
:10:02. > :10:08.faith assumption about what Theresa May wants because she was a
:10:09. > :10:11.Remainer. There is all this talk about a transitional arrangement,
:10:12. > :10:17.but she can't sell that as someone who voted to remain. The way Isabel
:10:18. > :10:21.has characterised it is interesting. There is a betrayal narrative.
:10:22. > :10:25.Everyone is looking to say that she has betrayed the true Brexit. Since
:10:26. > :10:31.the Government cannot give a clear indication of what it once in terms
:10:32. > :10:35.of the customs union, which sets external tariffs, or the single
:10:36. > :10:38.market, which is the free movement of people, capital, goods and
:10:39. > :10:46.services, others are filling this vacuum. Right. The reasons they
:10:47. > :10:49.can't do this are, first, they don't know if they can get it or not. We
:10:50. > :10:56.saw this with the renegotiation the last Prime Minister. What are they
:10:57. > :11:06.hoping to get? The world on a stick, to get cake and eat it. You go into
:11:07. > :11:10.a negotiation saying, let's see what we can get in total. Are they going
:11:11. > :11:14.to ask the membership of the single market? Yellow I think they will ask
:11:15. > :11:27.for a free trade agreement involving everything. You can demand what you
:11:28. > :11:33.want. The question is, do they stand a cat's chance in hell of getting
:11:34. > :11:38.it? They don't know. Welcome back. We will be back, believe me. It is
:11:39. > :11:43.150 day since we found out the UK had voted to leave the EU, but as we
:11:44. > :11:48.have heard, remain and leave campaigners continue to battle about
:11:49. > :11:55.what type of relationship we should have with the EU after exit.
:11:56. > :11:57.Leave campaigners say that leaving the EU
:11:58. > :11:58.also means quitting the
:11:59. > :12:01.Single Market, the internal European trading bloc that includes free
:12:02. > :12:02.movement of goods, services, capital and people.
:12:03. > :12:04.They point to evidence that leading Leave supporting
:12:05. > :12:06.politicians ruled out staying in the Single Market during
:12:07. > :12:09.Andrea Leadsom, for example, said it would almost
:12:10. > :12:18.certainly be the case that the UK would come out of the Single Market.
:12:19. > :12:23.When asked for a yes or no on whether the UK should stay
:12:24. > :12:26."No, we should be outside the Single Market."
:12:27. > :12:29.And Boris Johnson agreed with his erstwhile ally, saying, "Michael
:12:30. > :12:30.Gove was absolutely right to say the UK
:12:31. > :12:42.They've released a video of clips of Leave campaigners speaking before
:12:43. > :12:45.the referendum apparently saying that the UK should stay in the
:12:46. > :12:48.Nigel Farage, for example, once said that on leaving
:12:49. > :12:51.the EU we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:12:52. > :12:53.Owen Paterson, the former Environment Secretary,
:12:54. > :13:00.once made the startling statement that only a madman would actually
:13:01. > :13:05.And Matthew Elliott, the Vote Leave chief, said
:13:06. > :13:07.that the Norwegian option would be initially attractive for some
:13:08. > :13:12.But do these quotes create an accurate picture of what
:13:13. > :13:18.To cast some light on where these quotes came from we're
:13:19. > :13:21.joined by James McGrory, director of Open Britain
:13:22. > :13:35.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. . Your video has statements from leave
:13:36. > :13:38.campaigners hinting they want to stay in the single market. How many
:13:39. > :13:46.were made during the referendum campaign? I don't know. Not one was
:13:47. > :13:50.made during the referendum campaign. Indeed, only two of the 12
:13:51. > :13:54.statements were recorded after Royal assent had been given to the
:13:55. > :13:59.referendum. Only one was made this year before the referendum.
:14:00. > :14:02.Throughout the campaign am a leave campaigners lauded the Norwegian
:14:03. > :14:08.model. Norway are in the single market but not in the EU. They went
:14:09. > :14:11.out of their way not to be pinned down on a specific trading
:14:12. > :14:15.arrangement they want to see in the future with Europe, when the
:14:16. > :14:20.Treasury model the different models it was the EEA or a free-trade
:14:21. > :14:23.agreement. I understand. Does it not undermine your case that none of the
:14:24. > :14:28.12 statements on your video were made during the campaign itself,
:14:29. > :14:33.when people were giving really serious thought to such matters? The
:14:34. > :14:36.Leave campaign weren't giving serious thought to such matters.
:14:37. > :14:41.They did not set out the future trading model they wanted to see.
:14:42. > :14:45.But you cannot produce a single video with somebody saying we should
:14:46. > :14:50.stay in the single market during the campaign. Daniel Hanna had talked
:14:51. > :14:56.about the Norwegian model as a future option. One comment from
:14:57. > :14:59.Nigel Farage dates back to 2009, when we didn't even know if we would
:15:00. > :15:04.have a referendum or not. Does it not stretch credibility to go back
:15:05. > :15:07.to the time when Gordon Brown was Prime Minister? The overall point
:15:08. > :15:14.stands. It is not supposed to be an exhaustive list of the options.
:15:15. > :15:18.Daniel Hannan, described as the intellectual godfather of the Leave
:15:19. > :15:22.movement is saying that no one is talking about threatening our place
:15:23. > :15:26.in the signal market. I think it's legitimate to point out the Leave
:15:27. > :15:30.campaign never came forward with a credible argument. We have
:15:31. > :15:33.highlighted some of the quotes you picked out from leave campaigners
:15:34. > :15:39.over time. Do you think you have fully encapsulated their arguments
:15:40. > :15:45.accurately? I don't think in a 92nd video you can talk about the full
:15:46. > :15:50.thing. -- a 90-2nd video. Some of them want to seek a free-trade
:15:51. > :15:57.agreement, some to default on to World Trade Organisation tariffs.
:15:58. > :15:59.There is a range of opinion in the Leave campaign. Let's listen to the
:16:00. > :16:01.clip you used on Owen Paterson first.
:16:02. > :16:08.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:09. > :16:12.Only a madman would actually leave the market.
:16:13. > :16:14.It's not the EU which is
:16:15. > :16:17.a political organisation delivering the prosperity and buying our goods.
:16:18. > :16:20.It's the market, it's the members of the market and we'll carry on
:16:21. > :16:23.I mean, are we really suggesting that the
:16:24. > :16:26.economy in the world is not going to come to come
:16:27. > :16:28.to a satisfactory trading arrangement with the EU?
:16:29. > :16:30.Are we going to be like Sudan and North
:16:31. > :16:34.It is ludicrous this idea that we are going to leap off a
:16:35. > :16:48.What he said when he said only a madman would leave Europe, was that
:16:49. > :16:52.we would continue to trade, we would continue to have access. Any country
:16:53. > :16:55.in the world can have access. What the Leave campaign suggested is our
:16:56. > :16:59.trade would continue uninterrupted, they are still at it today, David
:17:00. > :17:03.Davis used the phrase, uninterrupted, from the dispatch box
:17:04. > :17:06.recently. You misrepresented him by saying only a madman would leave the
:17:07. > :17:11.Single Market and stopped it there, because he goes onto say that of
:17:12. > :17:12.course we want Leave in the sense of continuing to have access. I don't
:17:13. > :17:31.think he was about axis, he is talking
:17:32. > :17:33.about membership. He doesn't use the word membership at all. He talks
:17:34. > :17:36.about we are going to carry on trading with them, we will not leap
:17:37. > :17:39.off, we will carry on trading. Anybody can trade with the EU, it's
:17:40. > :17:41.the terms on which you trade that is important and leave campaigners and
:17:42. > :17:44.Patterson is an example of this, saying we can trade as we do now,
:17:45. > :17:46.the government saying we can trade without bureaucratic impediments and
:17:47. > :17:48.tariff free. The viewers will make up their mind. Let's listen to the
:17:49. > :17:50.views of Matthew Elliott, the Chief Executive of Vote Leave.
:17:51. > :17:53.When it comes to the Norwegian option, the EEA option, I think that
:17:54. > :17:55.it might be initially attractive for some business people.
:17:56. > :17:59.So you then cut him off there but this is what he went on to say in
:18:00. > :18:02.the same clip, let's listen to that. When it comes to the Norwegian
:18:03. > :18:06.option, the EEA option, I think that it might be initially attractive
:18:07. > :18:08.for some business people. But then again for voters
:18:09. > :18:11.who are increasingly concerned about migration in the EU,
:18:12. > :18:14.they will be very concerned that it allows free movement
:18:15. > :18:26.of people to continue. Again, you have misrepresented him.
:18:27. > :18:28.He said the Norwegian model has attractions but there are real
:18:29. > :18:33.problems if it involves free movement of people, which it does.
:18:34. > :18:36.But you cut that bit out. I challenge anyone to represent them
:18:37. > :18:40.accurately because they took such a range of opinions. I don't know what
:18:41. > :18:44.we are supposed to do. You are misrepresenting them. He is saying
:18:45. > :18:48.the Norwegian option is attractive to business, I understand why. It
:18:49. > :18:55.might not be attractive for voters. But then he said if it allowed free
:18:56. > :18:59.movement of people it could be an issue. You took that out. You are
:19:00. > :19:02.saying this is a definitive position. I'm suggesting you are
:19:03. > :19:04.distorting it. This is what you had Mr Farage say.
:19:05. > :19:07.On D+1 we'll find ourselves part of the European economic area
:19:08. > :19:15.This is what he then went on to say in that same clip that you didn't
:19:16. > :19:16.run. There is absolutely
:19:17. > :19:18.nothing to fear in terms of trade from leaving
:19:19. > :19:19.the on D+1 we'll find ourselves part
:19:20. > :19:23.of the European Economic Area and we should use our
:19:24. > :19:32.membership of the EEA as a holding position from which
:19:33. > :19:35.we can negotiate as the European Union's biggest export
:19:36. > :19:38.market in the world, as good a deal, my goodness me,
:19:39. > :19:48.if Switzerland can have one we So there again, he says not that we
:19:49. > :19:53.should stay in the Single Market as a member, but that we stay in the EA
:19:54. > :20:03.as a transition until we negotiate something. -- EEA. This whole clip
:20:04. > :20:06.is online, how would you get away with this distortion? It is not a
:20:07. > :20:10.distortion, the whole point is to point out they do not have a
:20:11. > :20:13.definitive position, he is arguing for membership of the Single Market,
:20:14. > :20:18.for a transitional period. For the transition. How long does that go
:20:19. > :20:21.on, what does he want to then achieve? Not very quickly but he
:20:22. > :20:25.does not say we should stay members of the Single Market and you didn't
:20:26. > :20:28.let people see what he went on to say, you gave the impression he
:20:29. > :20:32.wanted to stay in the one it. It would not be a video then, it would
:20:33. > :20:36.be a seven-week long lecture. They took so many positions, and the idea
:20:37. > :20:39.now that they were clear with people that we should definitely leave the
:20:40. > :20:43.Single Market I think is fictitious. You are trying to make out they all
:20:44. > :20:48.had one position which was to remain members of the one it. You see the
:20:49. > :20:52.full clips that is not what they are saying. We are trying to point out
:20:53. > :20:55.there is no mandate to leave the Single Market. The idea the Leave
:20:56. > :20:59.campaign spoke with unanimity and clarity of purpose and throughout
:21:00. > :21:03.the whole campaign said we will definitely leave the Single Market
:21:04. > :21:07.is not true. That is the whole point of the media. We showed in the
:21:08. > :21:11.montage in the video just before we came on, we said that then Prime
:21:12. > :21:14.Minister, the then Chancellor, Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, being
:21:15. > :21:17.categorical that if you vote to leave the EU, you vote to leave
:21:18. > :21:21.membership of the Single Market. What bit of that didn't you
:21:22. > :21:24.understand? Under duress they occasionally said they wanted to
:21:25. > :21:30.leave. Some of them wanted to leave the Single Market. All of the other
:21:31. > :21:34.promises they made, whether ?350 million for the NHS, whether a VAT
:21:35. > :21:38.cut on fuel, points-based system. You do not have a single quote of
:21:39. > :21:42.any of these members saying they want to be a member. Daniel Hannan
:21:43. > :21:47.has said consistently that Norway are a part of the Single Market. You
:21:48. > :21:49.spend the referendum campaign criticising for Rim misrepresenting
:21:50. > :21:52.and misrepresenting and lying and many thought they did. Having seen
:21:53. > :21:56.this many will conclude that you are the biggest liars. I think it is
:21:57. > :21:59.perfectly reasonable to point out that the Leave campaign did not have
:22:00. > :22:03.a clear position on our future trading relationship with Europe.
:22:04. > :22:06.That is all this video does. It doesn't say we definitely have to
:22:07. > :22:10.stay in the Single Market, it just says they do have a mandate to drag
:22:11. > :22:13.us out of our biggest trading partner.
:22:14. > :22:14.Now people have seen the full quotes in context our viewers will make up
:22:15. > :22:17.their mind. Thank you. Now - voting closes next week
:22:18. > :22:19.in the the Ukip leadership contest. The second Ukip leadership contest
:22:20. > :22:22.this year after the party's first female leader - Diane James -
:22:23. > :22:25.stood down from the role Since then the party's lurched from
:22:26. > :22:28.farce to fiasco. It's a world gripped by uncertainty,
:22:29. > :22:43.split into factions. Yes, 2, because they're
:22:44. > :22:53.having their second Watch as the alpha male,
:22:54. > :23:01.the Ukip leader at Nigel Watch as the alpha male,
:23:02. > :23:03.the Ukip leader Nigel Farage, hands power to the new alpha
:23:04. > :23:06.female Diane James. The European Parliament
:23:07. > :23:20.in Strasbourg, October. Another leading light and possible
:23:21. > :23:23.future leader, the MEP Steven Wolfe,
:23:24. > :23:25.has been laid low after an alleged tussle with a colleague
:23:26. > :23:27.during a meeting. A few days later he is
:23:28. > :23:30.out of hospital and I will be withdrawing my
:23:31. > :23:34.application to become I'm actually withdrawing
:23:35. > :23:37.myself from Ukip. You're resigning from the party?
:23:38. > :23:43.I'm resigning with immediate effect. And this week a leaked document
:23:44. > :23:47.suggested the party improperly spent EU funds on political
:23:48. > :23:52.campaigning in the UK. Another headache for whoever takes
:23:53. > :23:58.over the leadership of the pack. One contender is Suzanne Evans,
:23:59. > :24:01.a former Tory councillor and was briefly suspended for
:24:02. > :24:10.disloyalty. Also standing, Paul Nuttall,
:24:11. > :24:13.an MEP from Liverpool who has been by Farage's side
:24:14. > :24:18.as his deputy for six years. There's another big beast
:24:19. > :24:21.in the Ukip leadership contest, and I'm told
:24:22. > :24:23.that today he can be spotted He's John Rees-Evans,
:24:24. > :24:29.a businessman and adventurer who is offering members the chance
:24:30. > :24:32.to propose policies via a website We've got really dedicated
:24:33. > :24:46.passionate supporters who feel like they're not really
:24:47. > :24:48.being listened to and are not even Typically what happens
:24:49. > :24:51.is they just basically sit there until six months before
:24:52. > :24:54.a General Election when they are contacted and asked to go out
:24:55. > :24:57.and leaflet and canvas. Even at branch level people feel
:24:58. > :24:59.there is not an adequate flow of communication
:25:00. > :25:01.up-and-down the party. Are you not going to take part in
:25:02. > :25:10.any hustings? He left a hustings saying
:25:11. > :25:13.the contest was an establishment coronation and has
:25:14. > :25:15.made colourful comments in the past. He's in favour of the death penalty
:25:16. > :25:18.for crimes like paedophilia. I think there is a clear
:25:19. > :25:20.will amongst the offences should be dealt with
:25:21. > :25:24.decisively. But again, on an issue like that,
:25:25. > :25:26.that is something that Our members are not
:25:27. > :25:32.going to agree with me on everything and I don't believe that
:25:33. > :25:34.I would have any authority to have the say and determine
:25:35. > :25:36.the future What method would you use
:25:37. > :25:40.for the death penalty? Again, that is something that could
:25:41. > :25:42.be determined by suggestions made So you'd have like an online
:25:43. > :25:46.poll about whether you use the electric chair,
:25:47. > :25:52.or lethal injection? For example, arguments would be made
:25:53. > :25:54.in favour of This is such a small aspect
:25:55. > :25:59.of what I'm standing for. Essentially, in mainstream media
:26:00. > :26:01.they try to by focusing on pretty irrelevant
:26:02. > :26:07.details. This is one vote that
:26:08. > :26:09.the membership would have. What I'm actually trying to do
:26:10. > :26:13.in this party is to revolutionise the democratic
:26:14. > :26:15.process in the UK, and that's really what your viewers should
:26:16. > :26:19.be concentrating on. With him at the helm he reckons Ukip
:26:20. > :26:22.would win at Meanwhile, in New York,
:26:23. > :26:30.on a visit to Trump Tower, Nigel Farage admired the plumage
:26:31. > :26:38.of the President-elect, a man he has described as
:26:39. > :26:41.a silverback gorilla, a friendship that's been condemned by some
:26:42. > :26:44.in this leadership contest. There are also elections
:26:45. > :26:46.to the party's National Executive Committee, a body
:26:47. > :26:49.that's been roundly criticised by And we're joined now by two
:26:50. > :27:04.of the candidates in the Ukip leadership election -
:27:05. > :27:14.Suzanne Evans and Paul Nuttall. We are going to kick off by giving
:27:15. > :27:17.each of them 30 seconds to lay out their case as to why they would be
:27:18. > :27:20.the less leader starting with Suzanne Evans.
:27:21. > :27:23.Ukip is at its best when it is scaring the political establishment,
:27:24. > :27:27.forcing it to address those problems it would rather ignore. But it
:27:28. > :27:30.really change people's lives for the better and fast, we need to win
:27:31. > :27:34.seats and elections right across the country. To win at the ballot box we
:27:35. > :27:54.need to attract more women, more ethnic
:27:55. > :27:57.minorities, and more of those Labour voters who no longer recognise their
:27:58. > :28:00.party. I know how to do that. Ukip under my
:28:01. > :28:02.leadership will be the same page about it, common-sense, radical
:28:03. > :28:04.party it has always been, just even more successful. Thank you, Suzanne
:28:05. > :28:07.Evans, Paul Nuttall. I'm standing on a platform of unity and experience.
:28:08. > :28:09.I believe the party must come together if it is to survive and
:28:10. > :28:12.prosper. I believe I'm the best candidate to ensure that happens, I
:28:13. > :28:15.am not part of any faction in the party, and beyond that I have done
:28:16. > :28:17.every single job within the party, whether that is as head of policy,
:28:18. > :28:20.whether that is Party Chairman, deputy leader for Nigel for the past
:28:21. > :28:22.six years. I believe Ukip has great opportunities in Labour
:28:23. > :28:26.constituencies where we can move in and become the Patriot invoice of
:28:27. > :28:29.working people, and beyond that we have to ensure the government's feet
:28:30. > :28:36.are held to the fire on Brexit and we get real Brexit, not a
:28:37. > :28:40.mealy-mouthed version. How will you get a grip on this? People have to
:28:41. > :28:44.realise that the cause is bigger than any personality, we have to get
:28:45. > :28:47.together in a room and sort out not just a spokespeople role but roles
:28:48. > :28:52.within the organisation, Party Chairman, party secretary, and
:28:53. > :28:56.whatnot. But as I say, Ukip must unite, we are on 13% in the opinion
:28:57. > :29:00.polls, the future is bright, there are open goals but Ukip must be on
:29:01. > :29:04.the pitch to score them. He says he's the only one that can get a
:29:05. > :29:07.grip on this party. I disagree, I have a huge amount of experience in
:29:08. > :29:10.the party as well and also a background that I think means I can
:29:11. > :29:21.help bring people together. I have always said nothing breeds unity
:29:22. > :29:24.faster than success and under my leadership we will be successful.
:29:25. > :29:26.There is concern about the future of our National Executive Committee
:29:27. > :29:29.going forward. Mr Farage called it the lowest grade of people I have
:29:30. > :29:32.ever met, do you agree? I think he must have been having a bad day, I
:29:33. > :29:35.think we need to make it more accountable to the membership, more
:29:36. > :29:39.open, more democratic. What would you do with the National Executive
:29:40. > :29:43.Committee? I have been calling for the National Executive Committee to
:29:44. > :29:46.be elected reasonably since 2010 giving the members better
:29:47. > :29:50.communication lines and make it far more transparent. Would you have a
:29:51. > :29:54.clear out of the office? I wouldn't, I think the chairman of the party,
:29:55. > :29:58.Paul Upton, the interim chairman, is doing a good job and the only person
:29:59. > :30:02.who has come out of the summer with his reputation enhanced. Let me show
:30:03. > :30:09.you a picture we have all seen of your current leader, Mr Farage, with
:30:10. > :30:12.President-elect Donald Trump. Paul Nuttall, you criticise Mr Farage's
:30:13. > :30:16.decision to appear at rallies during the American election and called Mr
:30:17. > :30:22.Trump appalling. Do you stick by that? I wouldn't have voted for him.
:30:23. > :30:25.I made it clear. Do you still think he's appalling now that he is
:30:26. > :30:30.President-elect? Some of the things he said were appalling during the
:30:31. > :30:33.campaign that he said. But he would be good for Britain, trade,
:30:34. > :30:37.pro-Brexit and he is an Anglo file and the first thing he did was put
:30:38. > :30:43.the bust of Winston Churchill back in the Oval Office. You, Suzanne
:30:44. > :30:47.Evans, called Mr Trump one of the weakest candidates the US has had. I
:30:48. > :30:51.said the same about Hillary Clinton. They cannot both be the weakest. The
:30:52. > :30:55.better candidate on either side would have beaten the other, that is
:30:56. > :31:00.quite clear. Do you stand by that, or are you glad that your leader Mr
:31:01. > :31:05.Farage has strong ties to him? I am, why wouldn't I be? For Ukip to have
:31:06. > :31:09.that direct connection, it can be only good for a party. Were you not
:31:10. > :31:12.out of step and Mr Farage is in step because it looks like your vote is
:31:13. > :31:18.according to polling I have seemed like Mr Trump and his policies? Let
:31:19. > :31:21.me finish. If I am the leader of Ukip I will not be involving myself
:31:22. > :31:25.in foreign elections, I will because in trading here in this country
:31:26. > :31:26.ensuring we get Ukip people elected to council chambers and get seats in
:31:27. > :31:36.2020. The other thing your leader has in
:31:37. > :31:43.common with Mr Trump is that he rather admires Vladimir Putin. Do
:31:44. > :31:50.you? I don't. If you look at Putin's record, he has invaded Ukraine and
:31:51. > :31:54.Georgia. I am absolutely not a fan. I think that Vladimir Putin is
:31:55. > :31:59.pretty much a nasty man, but beyond that, I believe that in the Middle
:32:00. > :32:05.East, he is generally getting it right in many areas. We need to
:32:06. > :32:10.bring the conflict... Bombing civilians? We need to bring the
:32:11. > :32:14.conflict to an end as fast as possible. The British and American
:32:15. > :32:21.line before Donald Trump is to support rebels, including one is
:32:22. > :32:24.affiliated to Al-Qaeda, to the Taliban. We need to clear these
:32:25. > :32:32.people out and ensure that Syria becomes stable. This controversial
:32:33. > :32:36.breaking point poster from during the referendum campaign. Mr Farage
:32:37. > :32:41.unveiled it, there he is standing in front of it. You can bend it - do
:32:42. > :32:45.you still? Yes, I think it was the wrong poster at the wrong time. I
:32:46. > :32:50.was involved with the vote Leave campaign as well as Ukip's campaign,
:32:51. > :32:53.and I felt strongly that those concerned about immigration were
:32:54. > :32:57.already going to vote to leave because it was a fundamental truth
:32:58. > :32:59.that unless we left the European Union we couldn't control
:33:00. > :33:08.immigration. I thought it was about approaching those soft wavering
:33:09. > :33:12.voters who weren't sure. I don't think I said it was racist, but it
:33:13. > :33:16.was about sovereignty and trade and so forth. That was where we needed
:33:17. > :33:20.to go. I was concerned it might put off some of those wavering voters.
:33:21. > :33:27.People may well say, it was part of the winning campaign. It was Ukip
:33:28. > :33:34.shock and all, which is what you stand for and what makes you
:33:35. > :33:37.different. I said I would know how that I said I would not have gone
:33:38. > :33:40.for that person and I thought it was wrong to do it just a week out from
:33:41. > :33:47.the referendum. However, I believe it released legitimate concerns,
:33:48. > :33:54.with a deluge of people making their way from the Middle East and Africa
:33:55. > :33:58.into the European continent. Where is the low hanging fruit for you,
:33:59. > :34:03.particularly in England? Is it Labour or Conservative voters? I
:34:04. > :34:09.want to hang onto the Conservative voters we have got but I think the
:34:10. > :34:12.low hanging fruit is Labour. Jeremy Corbyn won't sing the national
:34:13. > :34:16.anthem, Emily Thornbury despises the English flag. Diane Abbott thinks
:34:17. > :34:21.anyone talking about immigration is racist. Not to mention John
:34:22. > :34:25.McDonnell's feelings about the IRA. Labour has ceased to be a party for
:34:26. > :34:30.working people and I think Ukip is absolutely going to be that party.
:34:31. > :34:36.It is clear, I absolutely concur with everything Suzanne has said. I
:34:37. > :34:39.first voiced this back in 2008 that I believe Ukip has a fantastic
:34:40. > :34:43.opportunity in working-class communities, and everyone laughed at
:34:44. > :34:46.me. It is clear now that we resonate with working people, and you have
:34:47. > :34:53.seen that in the Brexit result. Would you bring back the death
:34:54. > :34:56.penalty? It wouldn't be Ukip policy. Absolutely not. Would you give more
:34:57. > :35:00.money to the NHS and how would your fanatic? You like it is important to
:35:01. > :35:10.fund it adequately, and it hasn't been to date. We promised in our
:35:11. > :35:15.manifesto that we would give more money. Where does the money come
:35:16. > :35:20.from? It is about tackling health tourism. I think the NHS is being
:35:21. > :35:25.taken for a ride at the moment. That may be right, but where does the
:35:26. > :35:29.money come from? It is about scaling back management in the NHS, because
:35:30. > :35:34.that has burgeoned beyond control. They are spending far more money on
:35:35. > :35:38.management. Where would you save money? We need to look at HS two,
:35:39. > :35:44.foreign aid. Now we have Brexit and we will be saving on the membership
:35:45. > :35:47.fee. We need to cut back on management, as Suzanne says. It
:35:48. > :35:54.cannot be right that 51% of people who work for the NHS in England are
:35:55. > :36:00.not clinically qualified. The NHS needs money now - where would you
:36:01. > :36:05.get it? From HS two. That is capital spending spread over a long period.
:36:06. > :36:10.Where will you get the money now? OK, another one. We spent ?25
:36:11. > :36:15.million every day on foreign aid to countries who sometimes are richer
:36:16. > :36:19.than ourselves. Through the Barnett formula. You would take money away
:36:20. > :36:35.from Scotland? Yes, I think they get far too much. PG tips or Earl Grey?
:36:36. > :36:42.Colegrave. PG tips. Strictly come dancing or X Factor? Neither.
:36:43. > :36:48.Strictly. I would love to be on it one day. There you go. Thank you
:36:49. > :36:52.It's just gone 11:35am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:36:53. > :36:54.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:36:55. > :37:04.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:37:05. > :37:09.A county of colour, of history, diversity,
:37:10. > :37:16.But, how does Lancashire make the most of that opportunity?
:37:17. > :37:19.The amount of local control around policy and around planning,
:37:20. > :37:25.and around our very future, is such that I think an elected
:37:26. > :37:27.mayor for Lancashire is a price worth paying.
:37:28. > :37:29.He wants a mayor but we've already got one.
:37:30. > :37:31.Joining us in studio this week is Joe Anderson,
:37:32. > :37:37.Alongside him, Graham Evans, the Conservative MP for Weaver Vale.
:37:38. > :37:39.High-speed rail was back in the headlines this week,
:37:40. > :37:42.with news about the routes here in the region.
:37:43. > :37:44.Joe, is HS2 a good thing, broadly speaking?
:37:45. > :37:49.For the North, and the Northwest, it's good, as long as we get
:37:50. > :37:52.the connection between West and East, now HS3.
:37:53. > :37:56.Graham, you're a big supporter of it as well.
:37:57. > :38:00.It's good for Weaver Vale, it's good for Cheshire,
:38:01. > :38:04.Joe's right to talk about high-speed 3 East to West -
:38:05. > :38:09.Crossrail, as I call it - but we just need to get on with it.
:38:10. > :38:12.I welcome it from Crewe through to Manchester Airport,
:38:13. > :38:14.through to Manchester, and indeed Liverpool.
:38:15. > :38:16.We will come back to HS2 in a minute.
:38:17. > :38:19.But let's have a look at how the route changes affect us
:38:20. > :38:23.It's now more than seven years since HS2 was first proposed.
:38:24. > :38:26.The plan is to build it in two phases.
:38:27. > :38:29.Phase two with link Birmingham to Crewe,
:38:30. > :38:34.Tweaks this week included the stretch between Middlewich
:38:35. > :38:40.and Pickmere, re-routed slightly because of geological concerns.
:38:41. > :38:42.Golborne had been earmarked for a rolling stock depot.
:38:43. > :38:44.That's now been switched to Wimboldsley, just north of Crewe.
:38:45. > :38:47.The section into Manchester has been rethought to avoid 20 homes
:38:48. > :38:56.The dotted line here represent a tunnel.
:38:57. > :38:58.But some experts say East-West routes need just as much focus,
:38:59. > :39:02.particularly the so-called HS3, linking Liverpool, Manchester,
:39:03. > :39:07.We do need to see those East-West connections
:39:08. > :39:13.developed and put into place, in fact before HS2 comes along.
:39:14. > :39:16.They are being decided separately, so there is no reason why some
:39:17. > :39:21.In terms of investment, the Government has invested very
:39:22. > :39:24.little in infrastructure in the North of England over
:39:25. > :39:31.And so we need a huge capital injection, if you like,
:39:32. > :39:35.Graham, do you think the order of this is wrong?
:39:36. > :39:38.Should we be building HS3 before we build HS2?
:39:39. > :39:43.We need that connectivity with London and the south-east
:39:44. > :39:52.Don't let us forget the Mersey Dee region with North Wales,
:39:53. > :39:55.the connectivity from North Wales, through Chester, the mid Cheshire
:39:56. > :39:57.line which you travel at the speed it was originally built
:39:58. > :39:59.during Victorian times, into Stockport and Manchester,
:40:00. > :40:03.and indeed Halton Curve, which will be opening next year,
:40:04. > :40:06.which gives us access into Liverpool from North Wales and Chester.
:40:07. > :40:08.There are some exciting things happening now.
:40:09. > :40:12.I agree, High Speed 3 is vitally important, but we need both.
:40:13. > :40:15.What do you say to people whose homes are being bulldozed
:40:16. > :40:21.Unfortunately, some buildings do need to be closed down.
:40:22. > :40:23.There is a lot of thought gone into...
:40:24. > :40:25.You talk about the route of High Speed 2.
:40:26. > :40:27.It is unfortunate but the Government has put
:40:28. > :40:31.a very good compensation, and improved compensation scheme
:40:32. > :40:36.for those people who have been affected.
:40:37. > :40:39.Joe, are you happy that what's on the table is a good deal
:40:40. > :40:43.It's about boosting the economy of the North.
:40:44. > :40:47.As Graham said, I am a supporter of having both.
:40:48. > :40:53.I'm glad that the link to Golborne has been announced.
:40:54. > :40:55.That means it's going to be easier once we start
:40:56. > :40:58.the connection from west to east, through to Newcastle,
:40:59. > :41:03.As it goes through to Manchester, it means that Liverpool can connect
:41:04. > :41:13.I just wish government would commit to doing that right away.
:41:14. > :41:15.Investors and people wanting to invest within the Liverpool city
:41:16. > :41:18.region, they need to know we are going to be connected
:41:19. > :41:21.Thanks for the time being, both of you.
:41:22. > :41:27.First of all, Greater Manchester and Liverpool city region will be
:41:28. > :41:29.among the first areas to elect regional mayors next May.
:41:30. > :41:31.It now looks like Lancashire will be next in line.
:41:32. > :41:35.Wyre council is still not keen but the other 14 of the county's 15
:41:36. > :41:38.councils have formed a Shadow Combined Authority,
:41:39. > :41:40.to negotiate a deal with the Government.
:41:41. > :41:47.Two years after the first ground-breaking devolution deal
:41:48. > :41:49.was signed down the road in Manchester, Lancashire says it's
:41:50. > :41:54.ready to take its place at the North's top table.
:41:55. > :42:05.Lancashire is a county of rich contrast.
:42:06. > :42:07.A county of colour, of history, diversity,
:42:08. > :42:10.This is a promotional film from the county's local
:42:11. > :42:13.On his first visit to the area since becoming
:42:14. > :42:15.Northern Powerhouse Minister, Andrew Percy was given
:42:16. > :42:17.a test of what its businesses have to offer.
:42:18. > :42:20.If you look around this local area, it's the lifeblood of the area,
:42:21. > :42:24.manufacturing, and we're very proud of it.
:42:25. > :42:26.Earlier, the minister had met with a business community,
:42:27. > :42:30.wanting to shout about their achievements.
:42:31. > :42:33.Not only has it steadied the ship in terms of enabling Lancashire
:42:34. > :42:38.to build on a strong political platform, but we've also started
:42:39. > :42:42.to build very, very strong relationships with government.
:42:43. > :42:45.The LEP and two enterprise zones are said to have
:42:46. > :42:49.But devolution is what Lancashire is after.
:42:50. > :42:51.We've got local leaders working together, which I think
:42:52. > :42:55.We're really committed to continuing the process of devolution
:42:56. > :42:57.and getting powers and money away from Westminster,
:42:58. > :43:04.up to the North, where we can make the decisions better for ourselves.
:43:05. > :43:06.Those local political leaders, many of whome initially rejected
:43:07. > :43:09.the idea of a Metro mayor, are now said to accept
:43:10. > :43:13.they must have one to get the powers they want.
:43:14. > :43:18.But the amount of investment this could bring, the amount of local
:43:19. > :43:22.control around policy and planning, and around our very future,
:43:23. > :43:25.is such that I think an elected mayor for Lancashire
:43:26. > :43:34.The visit comes after Lancashire's County Council revealed
:43:35. > :43:36.it won't have enough money to function within two years.
:43:37. > :43:39.One MP claims cuts are undermining any chance of success.
:43:40. > :43:41.I believe the North is a powerful place.
:43:42. > :43:42.The Northern Powerhouse is a totally viable idea.
:43:43. > :43:45.Without funding, we can't make it happen.
:43:46. > :43:47.When we can't deliver basic public services,
:43:48. > :43:50.it would be impossible to deliver the true potential of
:43:51. > :43:54.Lancashire's business and political leaders hope
:43:55. > :43:57.a devolution deal can be agreed with the Government by April.
:43:58. > :44:00.They say the red rose county is ready and willing
:44:01. > :44:04.to play its part in boosting the Northern economy.
:44:05. > :44:09.Earlier, I spoke to the leader of Lancashire County Council,
:44:10. > :44:11.Jenny Mein, and began by asking her how confident
:44:12. > :44:15.she was that the devolution deal would happen.
:44:16. > :44:17.My confidence is pretty high at the moment.
:44:18. > :44:19.We're hearing the right noises from the civil servants
:44:20. > :44:25.The chair of the Shadow Combined Authority, Simon Blackburn,
:44:26. > :44:27.has been in meetings with various ministers.
:44:28. > :44:38.How can you do this without all the councils being on board?
:44:39. > :44:40.You still have Wyre Council who have not agreed to this?
:44:41. > :44:46.We've been advised by the civil servants and by ministers that it's
:44:47. > :44:49.not necessary for everybody to be in.
:44:50. > :44:51.Ideally, we would like all 15, of course.
:44:52. > :44:59.At the present time they don't feel as if they want to be a part of it.
:45:00. > :45:01.Actually the leader of Wyre attended a leaders' meeting last week
:45:02. > :45:04.and it's the first meeting he's attended for quite some time.
:45:05. > :45:07.I'm hopeful some of the things he heard there will make him think
:45:08. > :45:11.that perhaps Wyre should be part of it.
:45:12. > :45:27.I think it's just he sees it as a devolution of the cuts,
:45:28. > :45:31.He fails to be convinced by anything ministers -
:45:32. > :45:33.or indeed the other leaders - say, because the rest
:45:34. > :45:37.Are the rest of the leaders actually enthusiastic about this?
:45:38. > :45:39.I think we heard from Simon Blackburn.
:45:40. > :45:44.Is there any actual enthusiasm for this, or is it a case of a gun
:45:45. > :45:47.has been held to your head and this is the only option you've got?
:45:48. > :45:50.We are very enthusiastic about the Devo deal.
:45:51. > :45:53.I think the price worth paying might be an elected mayor.
:45:54. > :45:55.Some of them are not convinced about that.
:45:56. > :45:57.We had a meeting specifically looking
:45:58. > :46:00.at what kind of a mayor we would have.
:46:01. > :46:03.But, also, it needs to be a good deal for people to accept a mayor.
:46:04. > :46:11.You're the biggest authority involved in this.
:46:12. > :46:14.So, will this potentially see a reduction in your powers as leader
:46:15. > :46:16.of Lancashire County Council, do you think?
:46:17. > :46:21.We are not talking about any powers going from the local
:46:22. > :46:25.Devolution means we get more powers given to us.
:46:26. > :46:31.How soon can an election happen, do you think?
:46:32. > :46:33.We know that Manchester and Merseyside are electing
:46:34. > :46:43.We think a possible timescale for Lancashire
:46:44. > :46:54.Maybe introducing a shadow mayor in 2018.
:46:55. > :46:56.Jenny Mein, the leader of Lancashire County Council.
:46:57. > :46:58.We heard progress being made in Lancashire, Graham.
:46:59. > :47:07.Warrington are deciding whether they want to go
:47:08. > :47:16.I hope they do come with Cheshire because we have a very exciting
:47:17. > :47:19.long-term economic plan for Cheshire and Warrington.
:47:20. > :47:22.Things are moving forward and it's a very exciting time
:47:23. > :47:27.Do you feel there's a bit of reluctance amongst councils
:47:28. > :47:30.in that they want the money but they don't want the mayor
:47:31. > :47:36.There is a feeling that was in your interview that perhaps
:47:37. > :47:40.It's an opportunity for strategic long-term leadership,
:47:41. > :47:43.that council leaders can have a full part to play in that.
:47:44. > :47:45.There is some misunderstanding but I think devolution for Liverpool
:47:46. > :47:52.I do think it's the right thing for Cheshire and Warrington.
:47:53. > :47:57.I hope Warrington will join Cheshire in what we're proposing.
:47:58. > :48:00.So, you might end up with Warrington in the Liverpool city region,
:48:01. > :48:05.On the devolution issue itself, this country is the
:48:06. > :48:11.most overcentralised country in the world.
:48:12. > :48:13.And devolution has to be not just ring fenced,
:48:14. > :48:20.It has to give local authorities, cities - Manchester,
:48:21. > :48:23.Liverpool and elsewhere - the ability to actually do things
:48:24. > :48:30.Liverpool's first deal was done 12 months ago.
:48:31. > :48:34.Since then, there's been an inertia that's gripped government
:48:35. > :48:36.and negotiations because we've not had any more devolution.
:48:37. > :48:38.Particularly what I want is fiscal devolution.
:48:39. > :48:41.I want the ability to be able to create more growth,
:48:42. > :48:45.more prosperity for the whole of the city region.
:48:46. > :48:47.That needs to be given from central government.
:48:48. > :48:50.A bit of inertia from the Government.
:48:51. > :48:54.I'm impatient to get moving with this.
:48:55. > :48:56.It is up to the councillors at Warrington
:48:57. > :48:58.to decide whether they go to Liverpool and Cheshire.
:48:59. > :49:00.I would encourage them, and Warrington city leaders,
:49:01. > :49:10.You've had the first tranche of money this week, haven't you?
:49:11. > :49:15.We've got a plan set out - a five-year plan -
:49:16. > :49:18.where the single investment fund money goes, where gain
:49:19. > :49:22.The reality is, I met with Sajid Javid and talked to him
:49:23. > :49:33.The ?30 million a year, if you look at the city region
:49:34. > :49:36.of Merseyside, we've lost round about 600 million a year.
:49:37. > :49:41.That's what we've lost to our budget since the cuts have
:49:42. > :49:54.It will help us to do things, so will the deal itself.
:49:55. > :49:59.We need a rebalancing of funding so that we get our fair share
:50:00. > :50:02.in the same way that the south of England does as well.
:50:03. > :50:06.Are we still getting a raw deal in this region, do you think?
:50:07. > :50:09.Not a raw deal but I do think the rebalancing
:50:10. > :50:11.of the economies in the North, as Joe says, we are overcentralised.
:50:12. > :50:14.I do think that Cheshire, I hear what Joe says about Liverpool,
:50:15. > :50:17.but I think Cheshire loses out to Manchester and Liverpool.
:50:18. > :50:20.Some of the poorest people in Cheshire have a raw deal compared
:50:21. > :50:22.to those in Liverpool and Manchester.
:50:23. > :50:25.Joe, can I just ask you about your position on this?
:50:26. > :50:28.Liverpool now, as of next May, will end up with three mayors.
:50:29. > :50:30.The Lord Mayor, yourself, and then mayor of the city region.
:50:31. > :50:35.From my point of view, I was elected in May on a mandate
:50:36. > :50:41.of delivery of new housing, growing the economy
:50:42. > :50:45.within Liverpool, working together across the whole city region.
:50:46. > :50:52.Bristol has a mayor and they will have a combined authority
:50:53. > :50:59.London has their own mayors as well as the London mayor.
:51:00. > :51:09.I want to work with the elected mayor, not just in Liverpool
:51:10. > :51:12.but in the Liverpool city region but Greater Manchester and elsewhere
:51:13. > :51:15.to make sure that devolution means what it says on the tin
:51:16. > :51:20.You said previously it would not necessarily be needed.
:51:21. > :51:26.What I said was it would be up to the council to decide.
:51:27. > :51:30.It was the council's decision to have a city mayor and it will be
:51:31. > :51:33.the council's decision to not have a city mayor if they wish.
:51:34. > :51:36.That decision is theirs, not just mine.
:51:37. > :51:39.I can stop it, with the powers I have.
:51:40. > :51:42.But if the council wants to get rid of the city mayor, that's
:51:43. > :51:46.Thanks for the time being, both of you.
:51:47. > :51:49.Now, the man who will decide on the side of any devolution deal
:51:50. > :51:52.for Lancashire will this week set out his vision for the economy.
:51:53. > :51:54.The Chancellor, Philip Hammond, delivers his first Autumn Statement
:51:55. > :52:01.Claire Hamilton has been getting a flavour of what people want.
:52:02. > :52:06.It's not just cinemagoers these protesters in Manchester city
:52:07. > :52:09.They're hoping the Chancellor will listen to their demands
:52:10. > :52:15.and scrap plans for cuts to benefits for sick and disabled people.
:52:16. > :52:18.On the whole, the direction of travel will remain as before.
:52:19. > :52:20.They aren't going to make any wild, sweeping gestures towards
:52:21. > :52:23.the vulnerable and the disadvantaged.
:52:24. > :52:26.They're going to carry on the course they're on at the moment,
:52:27. > :52:28.which, unfortunately, is damaging our economy and damaging
:52:29. > :52:33.Campaigners chose to leaflet the audience at a screening
:52:34. > :52:36.of I Daniel Blake, which they claim is an accurate portrayal
:52:37. > :52:38.of someone who's been let down by the benefits system.
:52:39. > :52:41.The character in Daniel Blake is a character in a film
:52:42. > :52:43.but it's actually real life things that are going
:52:44. > :52:47.It's hard enough as it is, dealing with cancer,
:52:48. > :52:53.dealing with terminal illness without having to worry about money.
:52:54. > :52:54.Most important is the most vulnerable in society.
:52:55. > :52:56.They're the people who are being attacked.
:52:57. > :53:03.Nowhere could be more appropriate than here in the Albert Dock.
:53:04. > :53:06.Lord Heseltine setting out his vision for a post-Brexit
:53:07. > :53:09.Britain to a room packed with academics, council staff and
:53:10. > :53:17.They too will be watching the dispatch box next week
:53:18. > :53:20.and hoping for some certainty from the Chancellor at least.
:53:21. > :53:21.Skills, infrastructure, fiscal relaxation, and something
:53:22. > :53:28.about the exchange of people in universities and countries.
:53:29. > :53:30.Essentially, I think, the Government has an opportunity
:53:31. > :53:33.to offer some much-needed tax relief to small businesses
:53:34. > :53:39.Not just transport but skills infrastructure, digital
:53:40. > :53:42.infrastructure, and support around planning and housing.
:53:43. > :53:45.The Government was in Liverpool too this week, to hand over the first
:53:46. > :53:49.So, will there be anything for the new regional
:53:50. > :53:54.You'll have to wait for the Autumn Statement.
:53:55. > :53:57.What you will see is a continued commitment to make every
:53:58. > :53:59.region in the UK grow and, of course, that includes
:54:00. > :54:02.The Chancellor will make his Autumn Statement on Wednesday.
:54:03. > :54:07.Joe, are you hoping for a little more generosity from the Government?
:54:08. > :54:16.Sajid Javid, who is now DCLG, was Business Secretary before.
:54:17. > :54:18.He talks about he wants growth, he wants prosperity.
:54:19. > :54:21.For me, the problem with the philosophy,
:54:22. > :54:24.the ideology of the current government, is austerity and,
:54:25. > :54:33.Sometimes, you can tighten the belt that much you actually choke
:54:34. > :54:36.We've got to invest new homes across the city region,
:54:37. > :54:40.not just see it as a social need but see it as a business case.
:54:41. > :54:42.Liverpool, and other parts of the North, are being savaged
:54:43. > :54:51.by cuts and not able to keep the growth...
:54:52. > :54:53.It has not necessarily been as bad as you predicted.
:54:54. > :54:56.In 2012, you said there might be a summer of discontent.
:54:57. > :54:59.Sometimes things get taken out of context.
:55:00. > :55:03.I said, when we were talking about unless people recognise what's
:55:04. > :55:08.happening within cities that you could have that.
:55:09. > :55:12.The reality is, it's failed, hasn't it?
:55:13. > :55:13.If you look at austerity, it's failed.
:55:14. > :55:16.We're talking about the Chancellor in his Autumn Statement talking
:55:17. > :55:24.We're talking about going abroad and getting investment coming
:55:25. > :55:26.into the city, not just the city, but other cities.
:55:27. > :55:28.I want to see the Government do that.
:55:29. > :55:37.Want to see as growing ourselves out of the crisis we're in,
:55:38. > :55:41.rather than saying we're going to cut austerity.
:55:42. > :55:44.Has the Government been too hard, too tight on councils?
:55:45. > :55:47.I think we've just got to match it right.
:55:48. > :55:53.When you use the word, austerity, can I also say that is living
:55:54. > :55:57.I had a meeting with the Chancellor to put my pitch in for Cheshire
:55:58. > :55:59.along infrastructure, such as the mid Cheshire line
:56:00. > :56:01.and other rail infrastructure for exactly that reason,
:56:02. > :56:02.to stimulate growth and investment into the region.
:56:03. > :56:12.Did you expect the council to be more happy?
:56:13. > :56:18.It is difficult for Cheshire West and Chester Council
:56:19. > :56:31.Joe was telling me he was out in China recently looking
:56:32. > :56:38.We got to get through this difficult time of living within our means.
:56:39. > :56:40.We still have eye-watering borrowing going on and debt interest
:56:41. > :56:42.on the national debt and the Chancellor is biggest
:56:43. > :56:47.He does have a difficult job to have.
:56:48. > :56:54.He has Brexit and that uncertainty but I know he has been positive
:56:55. > :56:57.and he wants to stimulate inward investment.
:56:58. > :56:59.I suppose spending cuts a one-way balancing the books.
:57:00. > :57:02.You propose, Joe, a potential council tax rise with boats
:57:03. > :57:04.in Liverpool if they want that, to fund your council.
:57:05. > :57:08.We've got ?90 million to find over the next few years.
:57:09. > :57:10.People are asking me to save services to adults
:57:11. > :57:14.Unless government gives us more support, I can't get up.
:57:15. > :57:18.If the council tax rate goes up by 1% in Surrey,
:57:19. > :57:22.If it goes up by 1% in Liverpool, it raises 1.4 because we've got
:57:23. > :57:25.Do think people here will go for the 10%?
:57:26. > :57:28.At the end of the day, what I can do, as mayor,
:57:29. > :57:33.And it will be ring fenced to protect vulnerable people
:57:34. > :57:37.That's where the money will go full if it goes up by 10% and that
:57:38. > :57:40.will be 6% in addition to the 4% we will put up.
:57:41. > :57:44.What I will promise, if people want to support that,
:57:45. > :57:47.it will be ring fenced to protect people in those particular services.
:57:48. > :57:49.Are you happy to see council is proposing things like this?
:57:50. > :57:52.I don't agree with council tax increases, or tax increases,
:57:53. > :57:54.but it's up to Joe and the people of Liverpool.
:57:55. > :57:57.I don't particularly agree with that.
:57:58. > :57:59.We have to live within our means I know it's difficult
:58:00. > :58:03.You haven't forced councils into a corner and left
:58:04. > :58:11.If they choose to do that, they have done all the efficiency necessary.
:58:12. > :58:13.Where exactly in Liverpool, what Graham suggested,
:58:14. > :58:21.We raise ?146 million a year in council tax stop for adult social
:58:22. > :58:33.W're trying to live within our means but we haven't got
:58:34. > :58:39.And now, let's have a look at the rest of the week's news.
:58:40. > :58:40.Here's Peter Marshall with 60 seconds.
:58:41. > :58:43.The Wigan MP, Lisa Nandy, told the Prime Minister
:58:44. > :58:45.of continuing concerns over the national inquiry
:58:46. > :58:49.She will be, surely, as aware as I am, that there
:58:50. > :58:52.are further serious allegations that have been made to the inquiry panel
:58:53. > :58:56.Rossendale taxi drivers reckon they are being driven
:58:57. > :59:01.Cabbies formed a convoy to protest against new licensing rules they say
:59:02. > :59:06.Liberal Democrat leader Tim Farron warned that funding for bridge
:59:07. > :59:07.repairs and flood defences in Cumbria could face
:59:08. > :59:22.And it will cost more than double that amount, a third of a billion,
:59:23. > :59:23.to repair Manchester's neo-Gothic town hall.
:59:24. > :59:28.It's reaching a point in its life where it will be safe for only
:59:29. > :59:31.The alternative is to not have the town hall,
:59:32. > :59:34.Also on the lookout for funding, is Salford's
:59:35. > :59:38.The actress Maxine Peake is playing her part to raise it.
:59:39. > :59:48.Lucy Powell and David Rutley will be with us next week to discuss
:59:49. > :59:50.the local indications of the Autumn Statement.
:59:51. > :59:53.For now, thank you to my guests, Joe Anderson and Graham Evans.
:59:54. > :59:58.I'll hand you back to Andrew Neil in London.
:59:59. > :00:01.never happened and will not happen in four years. It is subject we
:00:02. > :00:10.should spend more time on. Back to you.
:00:11. > :00:14.What will the Chancellor have to say in his first big economic statement?
:00:15. > :00:17.What impact will the forecasters say Brexit will have on the economy?
:00:18. > :00:19.And who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in
:00:20. > :00:34.Well, the Shadow Chancellor and the Chancellor have both been
:00:35. > :00:36.touring the television studios this morning.
:00:37. > :00:42.Let's be clear, a lot of this is going to be gimmicks and press
:00:43. > :00:45.As I've said, in the pipeline, we've only
:00:46. > :00:48.seen one in five delivered to construction, that's all.
:00:49. > :00:51.So a lot of this will be a repeat of what
:00:52. > :00:55.I'm not going to reveal what I'm going to say on
:00:56. > :01:00.We don't have unlimited capacity, as one might
:01:01. > :01:03.imagine from listening to John McDonnell, to borrow
:01:04. > :01:07.hundreds of billions of pounds more for discretionary spending.
:01:08. > :01:11.That simply doesn't exist if we're going to
:01:12. > :01:13.retain this country's hard-won credibility in the financial markets
:01:14. > :01:18.if we are going to remain an attractive place for business to
:01:19. > :01:31.We didn't learn very much, Helen, but the papers were briefed this
:01:32. > :01:39.morning that there will be another ?1.3 billion for roads and things
:01:40. > :01:45.like that. ?1.3 billion is 0.08% of our GDP. Not exactly an
:01:46. > :01:49.infrastructure investment programme, is it? Yellow like I have to say, it
:01:50. > :01:58.was not thrilling to read the details. -- I have to say... It is
:01:59. > :02:01.the first big financial statement that is going to come and I think
:02:02. > :02:06.there will be a big row about the OBE are forecast because they cannot
:02:07. > :02:10.set out a range, they have to commit to one forecast. Everything they do
:02:11. > :02:19.is incredibly political. DOB are is on a hiding to nothing. -- DOB are
:02:20. > :02:28.-- the Office for Budget Responsibility. I don't know how
:02:29. > :02:31.they will square the circle. It is an interesting week. It is all about
:02:32. > :02:36.the economy and public finances and we don't have to talk about Brexit
:02:37. > :02:47.until next Sunday, but no, I have a terrible feeling that by the end of
:02:48. > :02:49.Wednesday afternoon we will be screaming and shouting about how
:02:50. > :02:53.Brexit is going to be for the economy. Just imagine the Treasury
:02:54. > :02:58.comes out with his forecast that it is going to collapse growth and
:02:59. > :03:04.collapsed Treasury takings, people will be apoplectic. Until now, the
:03:05. > :03:11.economy has continued to grow strongly. Pretty well. They cannot
:03:12. > :03:14.say, we have noticed it slowing down and that will continue. They have to
:03:15. > :03:19.take a punt if they think it will slow down. It affects the
:03:20. > :03:22.Chancellor's figures, because the more they say it is slowing down,
:03:23. > :03:28.and I have seen that it will go from 2% down to 1.4%, the more the
:03:29. > :03:33.Chancellor's deficit rises even without any more tax cuts and
:03:34. > :03:37.spending. Absolutely. I think Tom is right. What we will see this week is
:03:38. > :03:41.a continuation of the debate we have been having all along. If the Office
:03:42. > :03:46.for Budget Responsibility has negative and gloomy predictions,
:03:47. > :03:54.there will be howls of agony, and rightly howls of frustration from
:03:55. > :03:57.Brexiteers who will say that all the dire predictions from before the
:03:58. > :04:00.referendum have not come to pass and now you are talking things down in a
:04:01. > :04:07.way that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The money for roads, you
:04:08. > :04:15.were dismissive about it, but every little helps. I don't dismiss it, I
:04:16. > :04:19.say it doesn't amount to a fiscal stimulus in macro economic terms.
:04:20. > :04:27.I'm sure if you are on that road, it will be useful. They are going to
:04:28. > :04:37.build a super highway between Oxford and Cambridge. I would like to see
:04:38. > :04:42.them go out to Japan and learn how to fill a hole in two days. I would
:04:43. > :04:46.suggest the road from Oxford to Cambridge is not for the just
:04:47. > :04:54.managing classes, even though it goes through Milton Keynes, and that
:04:55. > :05:01.simply freezing due freezing fuel duty isn't going to hack it, either.
:05:02. > :05:05.These just about managing people are potentially quite a big band. With
:05:06. > :05:09.income tax rises, it means anything you do to help them is incredibly
:05:10. > :05:13.expensive. The universal credit freeze is an interesting example of
:05:14. > :05:20.that. Philip Hammond sounded ambivalent about it after
:05:21. > :05:26.pre-briefings that it might not, the cuts might not go ahead. There are
:05:27. > :05:31.people who are in work but because they are low paid don't have the
:05:32. > :05:36.number of hours, they require welfare benefits to top up their
:05:37. > :05:40.pay, and these welfare benefits, as it stands, are frozen until 2020,
:05:41. > :05:46.and yet inflation is now starting to rise. That's a problem for the just
:05:47. > :05:55.managing people. Correct. It is worse than that, because we are
:05:56. > :06:01.talking about April 2017 when tax credits become universal credits, so
:06:02. > :06:05.the squeeze will be greater. We will get a small highway between a couple
:06:06. > :06:09.of university towns, but if he has any money left to spend at all, it
:06:10. > :06:16.will be on some pretty seismic jazzman for the just about managing
:06:17. > :06:25.people. I am so glad we're not calling them Jams on this programme,
:06:26. > :06:32.because it is a patronising tone. What the Chancellor and Shadow
:06:33. > :06:36.Chancellor did not confront is that Mr Trump's election is a watershed
:06:37. > :06:39.in terms of being able to borrow cheaply. The Federal Reserve is
:06:40. > :06:44.about to start raising rates. The days of cheap borrowing for
:06:45. > :06:48.governments could be coming to an end. You can feel a bit sorry for
:06:49. > :06:53.labour here because after having had six years of being told that we need
:06:54. > :06:57.a surplus and these things are important, we can't deny the
:06:58. > :07:03.deficit, we have switched now and the first thing that Philip Hammond
:07:04. > :07:06.did was to scrap George Osborne's borrowing targets. He has given
:07:07. > :07:11.himself more wriggle room than George Osborne had. He has and it
:07:12. > :07:17.will cost them more. Debt servicing will now rise as a cost. Where is
:07:18. > :07:23.the next political earthquake going to happen?
:07:24. > :07:30.It could be Italy, or the French elections coming up next spring.
:07:31. > :07:33.Now, who will face the Front National's Marine Le Pen in next
:07:34. > :07:34.year's French Presidential elections?
:07:35. > :07:35.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:36. > :07:38.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:39. > :07:40.Well, France's centre-right part, Les Republicans,
:07:41. > :07:43.are selecting their candidate in the first round of
:07:44. > :07:48.Let's speak to our correspondent in Paris, Hugh Schofield.
:07:49. > :08:01.Welcome to the programme. Three main candidates, the former -- two former
:08:02. > :08:05.prime ministers and Nicolas Sarkozy, the former president. It is not
:08:06. > :08:09.clear who the front runner is. Robbins it is quite an exciting
:08:10. > :08:23.race, because four weeks it did look as if it was going to be Juppe. It
:08:24. > :08:26.is a two round race. Two go through and the idea is that they rally all
:08:27. > :08:31.the support together. It looked like the first round would be dominated
:08:32. > :08:37.by Juppe and Nicolas Sarkozy, and there was a clear binary combination
:08:38. > :08:43.there, because Sarkozy was looking for squeamish far right voters. In
:08:44. > :08:48.other words, veering clearly to the right and far right on immigration
:08:49. > :08:52.and identity issues. And Juppe is the opposite, saying we had to
:08:53. > :08:58.appeal to the centre. That was what it looked like. But the third
:08:59. > :09:01.candidate has made this really quite staggering surge in the last few
:09:02. > :09:07.days. There was a debate on Thursday and he was deemed to have won it on
:09:08. > :09:11.television. He is coming up strongly, and I wouldn't be at all
:09:12. > :09:17.surprised to see him go through, which would be interesting from a
:09:18. > :09:20.British perspective, because if the becomes president, he will be the
:09:21. > :09:28.first president with a British wife. His wife Penelope is Welsh.
:09:29. > :09:32.We will have to leave it there. I would suggest that the reason it is
:09:33. > :09:36.fascinating is that whoever wins this primary for the centre-right
:09:37. > :09:40.party is likely to be the next president, and who the next
:09:41. > :09:42.president is will be very important for Britain in these Brexit
:09:43. > :09:47.negotiations. Nothing will really happen until it is determined. Then
:09:48. > :09:53.after the German elections in October. I would add one more
:09:54. > :10:01.constituent part. The most important thing about the race is who can stop
:10:02. > :10:10.Marine Le Pen. Marine Le Pen will almost be one of the ones in the
:10:11. > :10:15.run-off. The Socialists don't expect much. Francois Hollande is done.
:10:16. > :10:20.There is too much of a cliff to climb. Which one of these three
:10:21. > :10:25.centre-right candidates can stop Marine Le Pen? We have had Brexit
:10:26. > :10:34.and Trump, but we could also have Marine Le Pen. If it is Sarkozy, it
:10:35. > :10:41.is the battle of the right. In some areas, he has moved to the right of
:10:42. > :10:44.marine Le Pen. I suppose he feels he has do in order to take the wind out
:10:45. > :10:48.of our sails. You wonder if she could succeed later on if she does
:10:49. > :10:52.not this time. Talking to French analysts last night, there was
:10:53. > :10:55.suggesting that she could not do it this time but could win the next
:10:56. > :10:59.time. All the events in France over the last year seemed to provide the
:11:00. > :11:06.most propitious circumstances for her to do well, and particularly if
:11:07. > :11:10.you throw in Trump and Brexit. Suppose it is Mr Sarkozy, and he
:11:11. > :11:14.goes through and wins the Republican nomination, and he and Marine Le Pen
:11:15. > :11:22.go through to the second round, that would mean, think about it, is that
:11:23. > :11:28.a lot of French socialist voters and those on the father left would have
:11:29. > :11:34.to grit their teeth and vote for Nicolas Sarkozy. They might not do
:11:35. > :11:46.it. We might see what we saw in America, where lots of potential
:11:47. > :11:49.Clinton voters did not turn out. You got politicians like Melanchon on
:11:50. > :11:55.the far left saying there are foreign workers taking bread out of
:11:56. > :11:59.French workers' mounts. We sometimes forget, because we tend to emphasise
:12:00. > :12:14.the National of the National front, but actually, there are economic
:12:15. > :12:22.policy is quite Bennite. Sarkozy is the Hillary Clinton of the French
:12:23. > :12:30.elections. He is Mr establishment. Juppe and the other third candidate
:12:31. > :12:32.are the same. You have to re-establish candidates running
:12:33. > :12:35.against an antiestablishment candidate. There are populist
:12:36. > :12:41.economic policies from the National front. The other three want to raise
:12:42. > :12:49.the retirement age and cut back on the 35 hour week, which are not
:12:50. > :12:53.classic electoral appeals. Mr Juppe used to be the Mayor of Bordeaux.
:12:54. > :12:58.And we are the biggest importers of claret, so that could have an
:12:59. > :13:04.effect. In 2002, it was Jack Shear against John Marine Le Pen, and the
:13:05. > :13:12.socialist campaign slogan was, vote for the Crook, not the fascist. We
:13:13. > :13:14.will see what they come up with this time.
:13:15. > :13:19.The Daily Politics is back at noon tomorrow on BBC Two,
:13:20. > :13:25.where on Wednesday I will have full coverage of the Chancellor's Autumn
:13:26. > :13:34.But remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.