:00:37. > :00:41.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:42. > :00:44.A row has broken out between Number Ten and former
:00:45. > :00:47.Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan over Brexit and, believe it or not,
:00:48. > :00:51.the price of Theresa May's leather trousers.
:00:52. > :00:54.I feel as though I'm one of the people that
:00:55. > :00:57.If you do that, you are likely to attract attention,
:00:58. > :01:09.It's not just Nicky Morgan making life difficult
:01:10. > :01:12.for the Prime Minister - we'll be taking a look at the rest
:01:13. > :01:15.Fully paid-up rebel Ken Clarke joins us live.
:01:16. > :01:17.Protestors disrupted a speech by Jeremy Corbyn yesterday,
:01:18. > :01:19.but is his biggest problem Labour's miserable performance
:01:20. > :01:22.Corbynite Ken Livingstone and Corbyn critic Chris Leslie
:01:23. > :01:33.Plus: These two are in step, but is the North West too segregated
:01:34. > :01:52.think of it as an early Christmas present from us.
:01:53. > :01:53.We guarantee you won't be disappointed.
:01:54. > :01:55.And speaking of guaranteed disappointments - I'm joined
:01:56. > :01:58.by three of the busiest little elves in political journalism.
:01:59. > :02:00.It's Iain Martin, Polly Toynbee and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:01. > :02:07.So, we knew relations between Theresa May and some
:02:08. > :02:13.of her backbenchers over Europe weren't exactly a bed of roses.
:02:14. > :02:19.But signs of how fractious things are getting come courtesy of this
:02:20. > :02:22.morning's Mail on Sunday which has the details of a series of texts
:02:23. > :02:24.from one of Mrs May's senior advisers to and concerning
:02:25. > :02:30.the former Cabinet minister Nicky Morgan.
:02:31. > :02:34.Mrs Morgan is one of those arguing for a so-called soft Brexit,
:02:35. > :02:37.and has been pressing the PM to reveal more of her negotiation
:02:38. > :02:43.She's also apparently irked Downing Street by questioning
:02:44. > :02:50.Mrs May's decision to purchase and be photographed in a ?995 pair
:02:51. > :02:56.She said she had "never spent that much money on anything apart
:02:57. > :03:06.Mrs Morgan was due to attend a meeting at Number 10 this week
:03:07. > :03:10.But that invitation seems to be off, after a fairly extraordinary
:03:11. > :03:12.argument by text message with Mrs May's joint chief
:03:13. > :03:22.She texted the MP Alistair Burt, another of those arguing
:03:23. > :03:29.for a so-called soft Brexit, cancelling Nicky Morgan's invitation
:03:30. > :03:33.and telling him to not "bring that woman to Number Ten again".
:03:34. > :03:35.The following day Nicky Morgan texted Fiona Hill, saying
:03:36. > :03:38."If you don't like something I have said or done, please
:03:39. > :03:52.If you don't want my views in future meetings you need to tell them."
:03:53. > :03:57.Shortly afterwards she received the reply "Well, he just did.
:03:58. > :04:01.And according to the Mail, Mrs Morgan, who you'll see
:04:02. > :04:03.in our film shortly, has now been formally banned
:04:04. > :04:20.So, Tom, much ado about nothing or telling you about the underlying
:04:21. > :04:23.tensions over Brexit? Both, if I am allowed to choose both. It says
:04:24. > :04:27.something about British politics today, that this is the most
:04:28. > :04:31.important thing we can find to talk about, because the Government are
:04:32. > :04:33.not giving us anything to talk about cs especially on Brexit because they
:04:34. > :04:39.don't have a plan as we know. There is is a lot of truth that are being
:04:40. > :04:43.spoken from this row, one is that Mrs May comes into Downing Street
:04:44. > :04:46.with a lot of baggage including spectacular fall outs with Cabinet
:04:47. > :04:54.Ministers in the past. Nicky Morgan being one. We heard about the row
:04:55. > :04:59.over banning children from school. She fell out with Boris Johnson, so,
:05:00. > :05:06.she then enters Number Ten with history. When you are in Number Ten
:05:07. > :05:14.you start, you cannot be controversial and my way but the
:05:15. > :05:18.high way, which is why Fiona Hill kept Theresa May in the Home Office.
:05:19. > :05:24.You need to behave differently in the top job. It is surprising Nicky
:05:25. > :05:30.Morgan hats taken such a robust line. She seemed such a gentle soul
:05:31. > :05:35.as a minister. She did, Brexit has done funny things to people.
:05:36. > :05:39.Everything has been shaken up. It reveals really how paranoid they
:05:40. > :05:44.are, I mean you cannot have a situation really in which the, in
:05:45. > :05:51.which you know, Number Ten has got realise if the Prime Minister's
:05:52. > :05:55.entire stick is her authenticity and incredible connection, which is
:05:56. > :06:00.genuine, with voters outside the Metropolitan bubble, when she
:06:01. > :06:04.chooses to wear ?995 leather trousers you have to anticipate that
:06:05. > :06:08.journalists and MPs are going to take the mickey, that is how life
:06:09. > :06:12.works, but I think they are trying to run Number Ten as they ran the
:06:13. > :06:16.Home Office, and you see that in the rows they have had with Mark Carney
:06:17. > :06:21.and Boris Johnson this week, now you might be able to run one Government
:06:22. > :06:25.department in that control freakish way but not Government will hold
:06:26. > :06:28.together for too long, if it is run in that fashion. By try doing the
:06:29. > :06:34.whole Government like one department. This is just the start,
:06:35. > :06:40.Polly, we are still several months away from triggering Article 50. We,
:06:41. > :06:45.The Tory party is split down the middle, the thing that mattered most
:06:46. > :06:49.to the nation since the last war, it is not frivolous. It may look as if
:06:50. > :06:55.it is about trousers, it is about the most serious thing. What was
:06:56. > :07:00.split down the middle? Aren't the Euro-files and the Eurosceptics used
:07:01. > :07:05.to be the outliers, it is now the Europhiles, it is not a split down
:07:06. > :07:09.the middle. They won't vote against Brexit but they will, I think exert
:07:10. > :07:13.the maximum influence they can, to make sure that it is not a Brexit, a
:07:14. > :07:17.self-harming Brexit, to make sure that the country understand, when it
:07:18. > :07:22.comes to that point, that there may be really hard decision to make, do
:07:23. > :07:28.you want a real economic damage to be done to the country, to your own
:07:29. > :07:32.wallet, in, in exchange for being able to stop free movement or is
:07:33. > :07:36.that trade off in the end going to be just too expensive? We have seen
:07:37. > :07:42.polls suggesting people are beginning to move, and not willing,
:07:43. > :07:46.a poll out now saying people wouldn't be willing to sacrifice any
:07:47. > :07:49.money at all, for the sake of stopping immigration. So if itself
:07:50. > :07:57.comes to that trade off, the people are going to need to be confronted
:07:58. > :08:00.with that choice. The Irony is, I think the Tories are in the most
:08:01. > :08:06.exceptionally strong position, I mean what is happening here is that
:08:07. > :08:11.British politics is being realigned and remade along leave and remain
:08:12. > :08:18.lines, if the Prime Minister's luck hold, the Tories are looking at
:08:19. > :08:22.being somewhere 45, 46, 47% of the vote with an opposition split
:08:23. > :08:25.between a far left Labour Party and depleted Liberal Democrats, that
:08:26. > :08:31.sound like a recipe for something similar to what happened in the
:08:32. > :08:35.1980s. You are seeing extraordinary alliances between left and right.
:08:36. > :08:40.The Scottish referendum rebuilt Scottish politics along the lines of
:08:41. > :08:45.pro independence, anti-independence and now Brexit maybe doing the same.
:08:46. > :08:47.So, rows within the Conservative Party over the price
:08:48. > :08:50.of trousers might be new, but over Europe, not so much.
:08:51. > :08:52.And this week's Commons vote on when the Government will fire
:08:53. > :08:55.the starting gun on Brexit, and what it will say
:08:56. > :08:57.about its plans before it does so, confirmed that instead
:08:58. > :08:58.of the eurosceptics being the outsiders,
:08:59. > :09:01.it's now the Remainers who are leading the resistance.
:09:02. > :09:10.While the Prime Minister was schmoozing in the gold-plated
:09:11. > :09:13.Gulf this week, back home the Commons was voting
:09:14. > :09:16.on a Labour motion forcing her to publish a plan for Brexit.
:09:17. > :09:17.Through some parliamentary jiggery-pokery, the Government
:09:18. > :09:19.basically got its way, but it did provide a platform
:09:20. > :09:25.for some mischiefmaking by Tory MPs who voted to remain,
:09:26. > :09:34.We are getting somewhat tired, are we not, of this constant level
:09:35. > :09:36.of abuse, this constant criticism that we are somehow Remoaners
:09:37. > :09:40.that want to thwart the will of the people,
:09:41. > :09:45.go back on it and that we don't accept the result.
:09:46. > :09:50.I don't like the result, and yes, I do believe the people
:09:51. > :09:53.It's not good enough that these things are dragged
:09:54. > :09:55.out of the Government by opposition day motions.
:09:56. > :09:58.I'm pleased that it's happened but I wish the Government was taking
:09:59. > :10:02.Is Nicky Morgan really listening to her constituents
:10:03. > :10:10.I think I'm one of the people who stuck their head
:10:11. > :10:13.above the parapet so if you do that you're likely to attract attention,
:10:14. > :10:16.you're likely to attract abuse, but also actually levels of support.
:10:17. > :10:19.I'm having e-mails from around the country with people saying thank
:10:20. > :10:21.you for what you are doing, party members around
:10:22. > :10:23.the country saying thank you for what you are doing
:10:24. > :10:27.and saying, and I and others will continue to do that.
:10:28. > :10:29.I just think, as a backbench Member of Parliament,
:10:30. > :10:32.you've got to be there, particularly when we have a weak
:10:33. > :10:35.opposition, to ask the question that government needs to be scrutinised
:10:36. > :10:42.on before we embark on such a huge issue.
:10:43. > :10:45.Nobody comes into politics to become a thorn in their party leader's
:10:46. > :10:48.side, but at the end of the day it's such a massive issue that
:10:49. > :10:51.if you don't stand up for what you believe in,
:10:52. > :10:57.I'm not sure what the point is of going into politics.
:10:58. > :11:00.That puts her on a collision course with activists in her local
:11:01. > :11:02.party like Adam Stairs, a committed leader who accuses
:11:03. > :11:07.Nicky has promised me and the rest of our Conservative association
:11:08. > :11:10.she will be voting for Article 50 and she will support
:11:11. > :11:12.the Prime Minister's timetable, and we have just got to trust that
:11:13. > :11:15.and hope that goes ahead, but there's a lot of people
:11:16. > :11:17.who think she's taking sideswipes at the Government
:11:18. > :11:21.The Conservatives are very popular, she wants to be a Conservative MP
:11:22. > :11:23.and we want to see a Conservative government being
:11:24. > :11:31.I have no idea what she's playing at, I think she just needs to get
:11:32. > :11:34.on with her job as an MP, which she does very well,
:11:35. > :11:37.Now let's head to Anna Soubry's constituency nearby to see
:11:38. > :11:39.how her stance is going down with the voters.
:11:40. > :11:41.If Anna Soubry doesn't fully back Brexit, what does
:11:42. > :11:47.Well, she's going to have a little bit of a problem because the voters,
:11:48. > :11:50.especially in this area, they voted to come out of the EU
:11:51. > :11:53.so she will definitely have a little bit of a problem.
:11:54. > :11:55.She should stick for what she believes in,
:11:56. > :11:57.but I guess from a democratic perspective she does...
:11:58. > :12:13.She has admitted the fact over and over again that she wanted
:12:14. > :12:16.to remain, but her views at the moment, even in her e-mails,
:12:17. > :12:18.depicted the fact she's anti-Brexit still.
:12:19. > :12:23.Theresa May will host her most pro-European MPs at Downing Street
:12:24. > :12:25.this week to discuss the countdown to Brexit.
:12:26. > :12:33.Although now we know not everyone is invited.
:12:34. > :12:39.And the MP leading the resistance in the Commons on Wednesday
:12:40. > :12:42.was Ken Clarke, he was the only Conservative MP who voted
:12:43. > :12:45.against the Government's plan to trigger Article 50 by the end
:12:46. > :12:48.of March and he joins us now from Nottingham.
:12:49. > :12:53.Welcome back to the programme Ken Clarke. Now, tell me this when David
:12:54. > :12:59.Cameron resigned after losing the referendum, you had to pick a new
:13:00. > :13:02.leader, which candidate did the Tory Europhiles like you put up to
:13:03. > :13:09.deliver a so-called soft Brexit, or no Brexit at all? Well, I can't
:13:10. > :13:14.speak for the others but I voted for Theresa May, I gave a notorious
:13:15. > :13:20.interview, it wasn't meant to be, I was chatting to Malcolm Rifkind but
:13:21. > :13:23.somebody turned a camera on, I called her a bloody difficult woman
:13:24. > :13:26.which the Tory party probably needs, compared with Margaret Thatcher and
:13:27. > :13:32.said I was going to vote for her, I gave a vote for one of the younger
:13:33. > :13:38.ones first, but I told Teresa I would vote for her, she was the only
:13:39. > :13:40.serious candidate in my view. You voted for somebody you thought was a
:13:41. > :13:44.difficult woman, she is being difficult in ways you don't like,
:13:45. > :13:50.your side of the Tory party, you had your chance to put up somebody more
:13:51. > :13:55.in line with you, instead you shut up, so, why the complaints about it
:13:56. > :13:59.not going in your direction? I am not making complaint, it is not
:14:00. > :14:03.Teresa's fall we are in the dreadful mess, she was on the Remain side,
:14:04. > :14:06.she made a good speech during the campaign on the referendum, setting
:14:07. > :14:09.out the economic case for being in, setting out the security case for
:14:10. > :14:14.being in, which was Home Secretary, she was particularly expert in, it
:14:15. > :14:19.wasn't her fault that not a word it was reported anywhere, in the
:14:20. > :14:22.national media. Now, my views have been the same, I am afraid
:14:23. > :14:27.throughout my adult life, for the 50 years I have been in politics, and
:14:28. > :14:30.my views have been the mainstream policy of the Conservative Party
:14:31. > :14:36.throughout all that time, I don't expect to have a sudden conversion
:14:37. > :14:40.on the 24th June, and I think what I owe to my constituency, and to
:14:41. > :14:45.Parliament, is that I exercise my judgment, I make speeches giving my
:14:46. > :14:49.reasons, I make the best judgment that I can, of what is the national
:14:50. > :14:56.interest. I understand that. I would be a terrible hypocrite if I... Of
:14:57. > :15:01.course that is not what I am asking. How many Conservative MPs do you
:15:02. > :15:08.think you can count on to oppose this so-called hard Brexit? Is it
:15:09. > :15:12.40, 20, 10, 5, 1? I have no idea, because Anna, and Nicky, who you
:15:13. > :15:14.have just seen on the video who are also sticking to their principle,
:15:15. > :15:19.they are only saying what they are been saying ever since they have
:15:20. > :15:30.been in politics, probably may have more idea than me.
:15:31. > :15:38.That is three, how many more? I don't know, we will find out. We are
:15:39. > :15:43.living in a bubble in which the tone of politics is getting nastier and
:15:44. > :15:47.the reporting is getting sillier, so it is all about Theresa May's
:15:48. > :15:51.trousers and whether Boris has made some inappropriate jokes. What we
:15:52. > :15:56.need if we are going to abandon the basis upon which we made ourselves a
:15:57. > :16:00.leading political power in the world for the last 40 years and the basis
:16:01. > :16:04.upon which our economy has prospered because Margaret Thatcher got the
:16:05. > :16:08.others to adopt the single market and we benefited from that more than
:16:09. > :16:15.any other member state, so now we need a serious plan, a strategy.
:16:16. > :16:19.What is our relationship going to be in the modern world? How will our
:16:20. > :16:29.children and grandchildren make the best union they can? We need
:16:30. > :16:34.Parliament's approval of a White Paper and then start years of
:16:35. > :16:39.negotiation. This will run and run. This interview hasn't got time to
:16:40. > :16:42.run and run so let me get another question in. You seem to be quoted
:16:43. > :16:48.in the mail on Sunday this morning as saying if the Prime Minister
:16:49. > :16:53.sides too much with the heart Brexit group, she won't survive, is that
:16:54. > :16:57.your view? Yes because only a minority of the House of Commons
:16:58. > :17:00.think it is frightfully simple and you can just leave. The referendum
:17:01. > :17:05.campaign, the only national media reporting of the issues were
:17:06. > :17:11.completely silly and often quite dishonest arguments on both sides.
:17:12. > :17:16.Let me just check this, explain to me the basis... Know, excuse me, I
:17:17. > :17:20.have to interrupt because you said the Prime Minister won't survive so
:17:21. > :17:26.just explain to our viewers why she won't survive. She will be in a
:17:27. > :17:30.minority she starts adopting the views of John Redwood or Iain Duncan
:17:31. > :17:33.Smith. It's clear majority of the House of Commons doesn't agree with
:17:34. > :17:38.that and it would be pretty catastrophic if that is what we were
:17:39. > :17:44.going to do when we turn up and faced 27 of the nation state, and
:17:45. > :17:51.tell them we are pulling out of the biggest market in the world. How
:17:52. > :17:59.long do you give the Prime Minister then? If you don't think she will
:18:00. > :18:05.survive by going for a heart Brexit? I don't think she will go for a
:18:06. > :18:11.heart Brexit. Really, surrounded by David Davis and Liam Fox? Do you
:18:12. > :18:18.think Liam Fox will determine the policy of the Cabinet? Liam has
:18:19. > :18:22.always been ferociously against the European Union although he served in
:18:23. > :18:29.a government that was pro-European for about two and a half years. Does
:18:30. > :18:33.he not survive either? You're trying to reduce it to my trying to
:18:34. > :18:37.forecast Cabinet reshuffle is which I haven't got a clue whether there
:18:38. > :18:45.will be a Cabinet reshuffle, they may be ministers for the next ten
:18:46. > :18:49.years, I have no idea. Liam and me, but also Liam and the majority of
:18:50. > :18:53.his Cabinet colleagues don't start from the same place. The way forward
:18:54. > :18:58.is for them to produce a White Paper setting out the strategy on which
:18:59. > :19:02.all the Cabinet are agreed. People should stop leaking the Cabinet
:19:03. > :19:10.papers they are getting, they should stop leaking against each other, get
:19:11. > :19:13.down and do the work when they have got the agreed strategy. I'm sorry
:19:14. > :19:21.to interrupt again but we haven't got much time. We saw in our film
:19:22. > :19:27.that a number of constituency members in those areas which are
:19:28. > :19:33.strongly Remain MPs like yourself, in our case in this film it was
:19:34. > :19:37.Nicky Morgan, the constituency party members are unhappy about this.
:19:38. > :19:43.What's your message to them? Don't they deserve an MP that reflects
:19:44. > :19:49.their way of thinking? Leavers are unhappy and Remainers are very
:19:50. > :19:58.grateful. Mine don't go in for abuse... That's probably because
:19:59. > :20:02.you're not on e-mail, Mr Clarke. I get more from Remainers. I'm a great
:20:03. > :20:06.fan of Anna Soubry and Nicky Morgan, I don't agree with them on
:20:07. > :20:10.everything, but the views they are putting forward are the ones they've
:20:11. > :20:14.always held and I think we are doing the Government to favour by saying
:20:15. > :20:22.what it now depends on is your success in agreeing a policy and
:20:23. > :20:26.then explaining to the public what you want to do. I shall be surprised
:20:27. > :20:30.if they manage that by the end of March, I think it is best to get the
:20:31. > :20:38.policy right first but we shall see. Have you been invited then, you say
:20:39. > :20:44.you are being helpful, have you been invited to this meeting in Downing
:20:45. > :20:48.Street on Wednesday for the soft Brexiteers? No, because I haven't
:20:49. > :20:51.been joining any of these groups. It's fair to say most of my
:20:52. > :20:58.colleagues know exactly what my views are. No doubt those that
:20:59. > :21:05.haven't had this kind of discussion with their colleagues before have
:21:06. > :21:09.been invited. I didn't expect to be invited. I get on perfectly well
:21:10. > :21:13.with Theresa May but I haven't been invited, but I don't think there's
:21:14. > :21:19.much significance in that. What do you think of the way Downing Street
:21:20. > :21:24.has handled Nicky Morgan? I feel sorry for women in politics. I'm
:21:25. > :21:28.glad to say men in politics don't have great lead stories about what
:21:29. > :21:32.they are wearing. Apart from my suede shoes, I'm lucky because I'm
:21:33. > :21:38.not a very snappy dresser. It is tedious in these days that we still
:21:39. > :21:50.have a absurd pop newspaper stories about what they are wearing.
:21:51. > :21:56.That commenting on the Prime Minister's trousers, is it really
:21:57. > :22:02.grounds for banishment? No, of course not. Nikki and Teresa will
:22:03. > :22:06.have serious political discussions and if they want to have an argument
:22:07. > :22:14.about what they are wearing, their closest friends will advise them to
:22:15. > :22:22.keep it private. It is absurd. Given that the party appears to be
:22:23. > :22:27.deciding it has been all -- ordered to changes policies about Britain's
:22:28. > :22:32.relationship with the world, it needs to be taken seriously and this
:22:33. > :22:36.Lola. Is filling a vacuum before the serious discussion starts. Thank you
:22:37. > :22:38.for filling our vacuum this morning and of course no one would ever
:22:39. > :22:42.criticise how you dress. Of course. Now, seasoned observers will warn
:22:43. > :22:44.against reading too much into parliamentary by-elections,
:22:45. > :22:46.but they can provide a vital boost for a party leader under pressure,
:22:47. > :22:49.or provide damaging ammunition Following a disappointing result
:22:50. > :22:52.for Labour last week in Richmond, Jeremy Corbyn may have been hoping
:22:53. > :22:55.for an early Christmas present at this week's
:22:56. > :22:56.contest in Lincolnshire. In Sleaford and North Hykeham,
:22:57. > :23:05.a constituency that supported Leave in the EU referendum,
:23:06. > :23:07.there was little Christmas cheer for Labour as it fell from second
:23:08. > :23:11.in 2015 to fourth place. That was at least a better
:23:12. > :23:14.performance than in Remain-supporting Richmond Park,
:23:15. > :23:18.where the party's candiate lost his deposit after attracting
:23:19. > :23:20.fewer voters than the reported number of local
:23:21. > :23:24.Labour Party members. Speaking for the Labour Party this
:23:25. > :23:30.week, MP Vernon Coaker said their policies on other major
:23:31. > :23:34.issues were "lost to an extent Some MPs feel that a lack of clarity
:23:35. > :23:46.is holding the party back. This week three frontbenchers
:23:47. > :23:50.were among the 23 Labour MPs to defy the party line and vote
:23:51. > :23:58.against a motion to begin the process of leaving the EU
:23:59. > :24:01.by the end of March. And a number of Labour MPs we've
:24:02. > :24:04.spoken to since Thursday's vote have said they fear the party now runs
:24:05. > :24:07.the risk of being squeezed by the Lib Dems and UKIP,
:24:08. > :24:10.or in the words of one, "being cannabilised,
:24:11. > :24:14.eaten from both ends". To compound their troubles,
:24:15. > :24:15.a national poll released on Friday put Labour
:24:16. > :24:18.at a seven-year low, trailing 17 It's still a season of joy
:24:19. > :24:25.for many of Mr Corbyn's supporters - they point to a series of victories
:24:26. > :24:27.under his leadership, including a by-election win
:24:28. > :24:29.in Tooting and the London mayoral Though neither candidate was a
:24:30. > :24:36.Corbynite. But there's a distinct lack
:24:37. > :24:40.of goodwill on the party of his critics - although having
:24:41. > :24:42.failed comprehensively to challenge him this summer,
:24:43. > :24:53.what they intend to do This morning Diane Abbott played
:24:54. > :24:58.down the significance of the results. The reports of the Labour
:24:59. > :25:01.Party's demise are exaggerated, we are the largest social Democratic
:25:02. > :25:05.party in Europe and the surging membership is down to the current
:25:06. > :25:10.leadership. We have the right policies on the NHS, investing in
:25:11. > :25:14.the economy, and as you know the Tories are fatally split on Europe.
:25:15. > :25:15.And we're joined now by the former mayor
:25:16. > :25:17.of London Ken Livingstone, and the former Shadow
:25:18. > :25:26.Ken Livingstone, in the most recent by-election Labour collapsed from
:25:27. > :25:31.second to fourth place, the one before that your party lost its
:25:32. > :25:37.deposit. What is the positive gloss on that? There's nothing new in
:25:38. > :25:46.this, where you have got seats which are solidly Tory, often voters
:25:47. > :25:52.switched to Lib Dem to kick other voters out. We have had good swings
:25:53. > :25:57.that indicate a Labour government so don't pay too much attention. It is
:25:58. > :26:01.like Orpington 50 years ago. Labour voters switched just to kick the
:26:02. > :26:11.Tories out. Don't read too much into these results, Labour did win
:26:12. > :26:14.tooting so it is OK. First of all I don't think it was a problem with
:26:15. > :26:20.the candidates in the by-elections, they did a really good job locally,
:26:21. > :26:25.but there is an issue with those residents and their attitudes to the
:26:26. > :26:29.national party, and I just think that when you have warning bells
:26:30. > :26:33.going off like that, we have to listen to what people are saying. I
:26:34. > :26:38.think what they are saying is they want an opposition party to have a
:26:39. > :26:41.plan. So yes we have got to attack the Conservatives where they are
:26:42. > :26:47.going wrong on the NHS, running headlong over the cliff for a hard
:26:48. > :26:53.Brexit, but we also need a plan for what Labour's alternative will be.
:26:54. > :26:58.When do we get that plant? Effectively you have got it already.
:26:59. > :27:05.John McDonnell has gone on relentlessly for the need for a
:27:06. > :27:10.massive public investment. For decades now under Labour and Tory
:27:11. > :27:15.governments we haven't invested in infrastructure, our roads are a
:27:16. > :27:19.disgrace, a broadband is antique. We need to be honest about this, if
:27:20. > :27:24.Theresa May can come back and say I've done a deal, we are leaving the
:27:25. > :27:29.EU, we will control our borders, we won't have to pay 350 million a year
:27:30. > :27:35.and stay in the single market, well... But that won't happen. If we
:27:36. > :27:40.are going to stumble along for two years heading for an economic
:27:41. > :27:43.disaster, that's why only eight MPs voted to leave, because they knew
:27:44. > :27:48.the harm it would do to their voters. If you have got a plan, why
:27:49. > :27:54.are things getting worse for you in the national polls, 17 points
:27:55. > :27:58.behind? If you look back, when I was leader of Chelsea my poll rating
:27:59. > :28:04.went down... But you have not been as bad since 1983 when you lost an
:28:05. > :28:09.election by a landslide. Over the next two years our economy will not
:28:10. > :28:13.grow strongly, it will limp along at best, as we get closer to Brexit it
:28:14. > :28:18.will get worse. All Labour MPs should be focusing on the economic
:28:19. > :28:24.alternative because nobody ever wins an election without a credible
:28:25. > :28:29.economic strategy. So as long as the country goes to hell in a hand
:28:30. > :28:32.basket, Labour will be fine. That's not good enough. You're not a
:28:33. > :28:40.commentator any more, you are part of the leadership of the party. It
:28:41. > :28:42.is to you. I will continue to argue the case for credibility,
:28:43. > :28:49.particularly in our policies, but the leadership cannot just sit back
:28:50. > :28:53.and watch this drift. On the Brexit situation, the Conservative
:28:54. > :28:57.manifesto at the last general election promised it would be yes to
:28:58. > :29:01.the single market, why aren't we holding them to account for the
:29:02. > :29:07.broken promise potentially they are about to do? If I had still been an
:29:08. > :29:12.MP, I would have been voting with you, rebelling, because we are not
:29:13. > :29:16.going to get any good deal to leave. Theresa May will stumble on for a
:29:17. > :29:19.couple of years trying to balance... The party policies were heard from
:29:20. > :29:25.Diane Abbott this morning is to get the best possible deal to leave. And
:29:26. > :29:31.I will believe it when it happens. So you don't believe a central part
:29:32. > :29:38.of Jeremy Corbyn's policy? Jeremy has accepted the fact people voted
:29:39. > :29:42.to leave. He now said we now need to get the best possible deal and you
:29:43. > :29:47.don't think it's achievable. I don't, because why would the other
:29:48. > :29:54.27 members give us a better deal staying outside? You've confused me,
:29:55. > :29:56.why are you such a big supporter of Corbyn with his policy you don't
:29:57. > :30:07.think it's achievable? Everybody knows we are not going to
:30:08. > :30:11.get a soft exit, so we either have the hard Brexit and we lose perhaps
:30:12. > :30:17.millions, certainly hundreds of thousands of jobs, or we have to say
:30:18. > :30:22.we got it wrong. I mean, you, a lot of people have been saying that all
:30:23. > :30:26.Labour's unclear on Brexit, that is why it is going wrong, I would
:30:27. > :30:30.suggest to you, that actually what the concentration on is the Tories
:30:31. > :30:35.are unclear about Brexit, they are in power, that is what matters, a
:30:36. > :30:40.bigger problem for Labour is whether Mr Corbyn's leadership will cut
:30:41. > :30:44.through or not. I think the YouGov poll this weekend not only gave us
:30:45. > :30:50.that double punch of a 17 point lead for the Conservatives but it had a
:30:51. > :30:55.33 point lead, 33 point, for Theresa May over Jeremy Corbyn, so part of
:30:56. > :30:59.the plan, think, has to be to address this leadership issue, to
:31:00. > :31:06.make sure it is also a party that is listening to the wider public and
:31:07. > :31:12.not just the small number of members or the trotsites in Momentum or
:31:13. > :31:22.whoever is the latest Marxist on the... You The thing that is ox
:31:23. > :31:26.fibbing Labour. One MP said Labour has quoted bunkum. We have has 18
:31:27. > :31:33.months of Labour MPs stabbing Jeremy in the back and some in the front.
:31:34. > :31:36.The vast majority of Labour MPs have stopped undermining Jeremy. You
:31:37. > :31:39.weren't doing that well before. Can you imagine a situation in which you
:31:40. > :31:43.have elected a new leader and the first year it is all about getting
:31:44. > :31:48.rid of imand undermining him. I disagree with Tony Blair on lots of
:31:49. > :31:51.policy issue, I didn't run wound saying this man is not fit to
:31:52. > :31:57.govern. That is because you had no support for that at the time. The
:31:58. > :32:02.idea people will take lectures from Ken on divisiveness, that is like
:32:03. > :32:07.takes lectures from Boris Johnson on diplomacy, you have to make sure,
:32:08. > :32:12.yes, that we find some accommodation after the leadership election this
:32:13. > :32:19.summer, but the plan is not there right now, and you and the rest of
:32:20. > :32:23.the leadership has to be held accountable for delivering that, I
:32:24. > :32:29.want to hear what the plan is. It is FDR he told us earlier. If you have
:32:30. > :32:33.got now because as we saw in the Autumn Statement, debt to GDP ratio
:32:34. > :32:39.at 90%, you can't convince the public by saying we will throw more
:32:40. > :32:43.money at the problem, the public want a credible plan, where the sums
:32:44. > :32:48.add up, that you are not making promises that won't be delivered.
:32:49. > :32:53.They want that plan. We need to point out our history, when Labour
:32:54. > :33:02.Waugh the election in 45 Government debt was two times that it was now..
:33:03. > :33:06.Now.. They generated exports and within 50 years we virtually paid
:33:07. > :33:13.off that debt. Austerity is not the way to go. Our economy is a disgrace
:33:14. > :33:16.compared with Germany. I agree. What we have to start saying, there is
:33:17. > :33:21.decent jobs, where are they going to be coming from, can we have a
:33:22. > :33:25.society based on fair play and prosperity for everybody not just
:33:26. > :33:27.the wealthy, that means saying, some time, that people have to
:33:28. > :33:31.contribute, they have to put in, so we have to listen to what the public
:33:32. > :33:36.are saying on issues for instance like immigration, as they said in
:33:37. > :33:40.the Brexit referendum, but make sure we have our approach set out
:33:41. > :33:46.clearly, so people know there is a ability to manage, and control these
:33:47. > :33:54.things, not just ignore them. Those tax dodgers who launder their money
:33:55. > :34:01.through Panamanian banks. If we crackdown on what might be 150
:34:02. > :34:07.billion a year of tax evasion and avoidance. That is a real outlier
:34:08. > :34:11.estimate as you know, way the highest, you cannot build the FDR
:34:12. > :34:16.programme on tax evasion revenues, alone, but let me ask you. You can
:34:17. > :34:23.say to Starbucks, if you are not going to pay tax on your profits we
:34:24. > :34:27.will tax every cup of coffee. Why don't you nationalise it? I was just
:34:28. > :34:32.checking that would be the policy. Let me ask you this. By what time do
:34:33. > :34:36.you get, start to get worrieded if the polls haven't given to turn
:34:37. > :34:41.round? I mean, I think they will turn round. When do you start to get
:34:42. > :34:44.worried? If they haven't? If in a year's time it was as bad as this we
:34:45. > :34:50.would be worried. I don't think it will be. Jeremy and his team will
:34:51. > :34:55.knows can on the economy, and that is wins every election. Bill
:34:56. > :34:58.Clinton, remember it's the economy stupid. People know if you are going
:34:59. > :35:01.to spend money they want to see where it is coming from, otherwise
:35:02. > :35:07.they will think it is their taxes that will go up and the
:35:08. > :35:11.Conservative, Theresa May, will scare the British public over plans
:35:12. > :35:17.that are not properly... What do you do if things haven't got better in
:35:18. > :35:22.12 months? We lost the leadership election in the summer but we will
:35:23. > :35:28.hold our leadership to account. What does that mean? It means asking for
:35:29. > :35:33.the plan, testing what the proposals are, are they properly credible, do
:35:34. > :35:38.they make sure that they meet the test the public... You just have to
:35:39. > :35:44.bite the bottom lip now, you privately, a lot of you think your
:35:45. > :35:49.party is heading for catastrophe. I don't think it is acceptable that we
:35:50. > :35:53.have this level of performance, currently, I am sure Ken agrees the
:35:54. > :35:57.opinion polls, and those by by-election were just not good
:35:58. > :35:59.enough. We have to show leadership, certainly on Brexit, hold the
:36:00. > :36:04.Government to account. Attack them for the crisis in the NHS, yes and
:36:05. > :36:08.on the economy, to deliver credible policy force, example on defending
:36:09. > :36:12.national security and making sure we stand up for humanitarian
:36:13. > :36:17.intervention. Final point, your party has lost Scotland. You are now
:36:18. > :36:22.in third place behind the stories -- Tories. I never thought I would be
:36:23. > :36:26.able to say that in a broadcast, if you lose the north too, you are
:36:27. > :36:30.heading for the smallest Parliamentary Labour Party since the
:36:31. > :36:34.war, aren't you. But that is our weakness, we in the 13 years of the
:36:35. > :36:37.last Labour Government neglected rebuilding our manufacturing in the
:36:38. > :36:43.way the Germans have done. Millions of people used to have good job, we
:36:44. > :36:47.used to have 8 million jobs in manufacturing it is down two. It is
:36:48. > :36:49.in the north, that Jeremy's strategy has the most relevance, of actually
:36:50. > :36:54.getting the investment and rebuilding. All right. We will see.
:36:55. > :36:59.Come back in 12 months if not before and we will check it out.
:37:00. > :37:01.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:02. > :37:03.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:37:04. > :37:07.Coming up here in 20 minutes, we'll be talking
:37:08. > :37:09.about Boris Johnson's tour of the Middle East after straying
:37:10. > :37:11.off message, again, and the protestors attempting
:37:12. > :37:22.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:37:23. > :37:28.Coming up in the North West: These two are in step,
:37:29. > :37:37.but is the region too segregated to dance to the same tune?
:37:38. > :37:44.First, affordability. People cannot afford to move to these areas.
:37:45. > :37:46.Second, choice. People choose to live in their own areas so we cannot
:37:47. > :37:48.force that agenda. Joining me in the studio,
:37:49. > :37:51.but not dancing together - yet - Yasmin Qureshi is the Labour MP
:37:52. > :37:54.for Bolton South East And Nigel Evans is the Conservative
:37:55. > :38:00.MP for Ribble Valley. We're going to start at this week's
:38:01. > :38:07.Commons debate on Brexit - where Andy Burnham had some cutting
:38:08. > :38:14.words to say about Labour's It is not working for the more
:38:15. > :38:18.deprived parts of our country. Especially those where traditional
:38:19. > :38:21.industry has been replaced by lower skill, wage employment. It is time
:38:22. > :38:30.for many on this sides of the house to hear the hard
:38:31. > :38:34.truth. It's undermining our communities and safety on the
:38:35. > :38:37.streets. I'm no longer prepared to be complicit, we need answers for
:38:38. > :38:42.our public concerns, based on hope, not hate.
:38:43. > :38:47.Yasmin, Andy Burnham with strong words there. The failure of the
:38:48. > :38:49.Labour Party to confront immigration is endangering safety on the
:38:50. > :38:53.streets, he gave it context later and said in action from the left is
:38:54. > :39:00.leading to hate from the right which is dangerous. Is that right? I've
:39:01. > :39:06.knocked on doors in my constituency and the issue of immigration is a
:39:07. > :39:10.problem for my constituents. It doesn't mean that you are being
:39:11. > :39:14.racist or it is about racism, it's a genuine concern and people,
:39:15. > :39:20.especially poor people, whose economic lives have not gone up. We
:39:21. > :39:24.know all of this but what we don't know is what the Labour Party are
:39:25. > :39:29.doing about it? They have said the way to deal with the issue is to,
:39:30. > :39:33.for example, introduce minimum wage. Now we argue we should be
:39:34. > :39:38.introducing a living wage. So people are paid a proper amount of money.
:39:39. > :39:41.But, can you see why people think Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott have
:39:42. > :39:46.their heads in the sand when it comes to immigration? They say they
:39:47. > :39:51.will not budge or be bullied on it. It's those debates that get heated.
:39:52. > :39:55.I do not think anyone is against, for example, a set of rules on
:39:56. > :39:59.immigration. People coming based on what jobs are available and I do not
:40:00. > :40:06.think anyone would object. But what happens is, different parts of the
:40:07. > :40:10.country have different experiences at immigration. There are a lot of
:40:11. > :40:13.jobs, and in future as well, with an ageing population, they will be
:40:14. > :40:18.needing quite a lot of immigration coming into the country.
:40:19. > :40:22.That's true, I think people want more clarity from the leader of the
:40:23. > :40:28.Labour Party. Niger, that debate ended with the House of Commons
:40:29. > :40:33.agreeing on Theresa May's timeline on withdrawal from the EU, but will
:40:34. > :40:39.she regret publishing her exit plan? -- Nigel. Thank goodness that
:40:40. > :40:44.Parliament have addressed these issues. She will not show her
:40:45. > :40:48.forehand, of course not. Sometimes I play poker and I would love to play
:40:49. > :40:52.against the Labour Party, they're negotiating strategy is to show your
:40:53. > :40:56.hand to your opponent! It will be tough and we would be bonkers if we
:40:57. > :41:02.told them exactly what our Brotton prize was! She has had to
:41:03. > :41:05.compromise, we cannot deny that -- our bottom price.
:41:06. > :41:07."Worrying levels" of segregation still exist in towns like Oldham,
:41:08. > :41:09.Blackburn and Burnley, according to a government
:41:10. > :41:12.The Casey Review said schools remain divided,
:41:13. > :41:14.and Muslim women are being held back by what it called "regressive
:41:15. > :41:17.But others criticised the report for focusing
:41:18. > :41:37.Song and dance at Oldham's Festival of light. An Interfaith celebration,
:41:38. > :41:41.in a week where headlines have been about segregation. We have
:41:42. > :41:47.challenges, but I'm always heartened by nights like tonight. Because, we
:41:48. > :41:52.see people mixing and I've had to turn down people today because we do
:41:53. > :41:57.not have any room. Despite events like this, Oldham is one of the
:41:58. > :42:02.areas highlighted in Louise Casey's reporters having problems,
:42:03. > :42:06.especially with integration among the Muslim community. This week,
:42:07. > :42:15.schools in old are out of kilter with the area they are based in.
:42:16. > :42:19.Here, 90% of the population is white that a majority of pupils here are
:42:20. > :42:25.from minority backgrounds. They've tried to help integration by
:42:26. > :42:31.merging two schools into this Academy six years ago, one mainly
:42:32. > :42:36.white and the other mainly Asian. If you look at that school now, our
:42:37. > :42:40.young people are more respectful, tolerant and resilience towards one
:42:41. > :42:46.another. Tricky elements are that people are not moving out of their
:42:47. > :42:50.traditional areas. There's the issue of affordability, people cannot
:42:51. > :42:54.afford to move, and the second is about choice. People choose to live
:42:55. > :42:58.in their own area so we cannot force that agenda. But could Muslim
:42:59. > :43:04.communities do more to improve the situation for women? The The Casey
:43:05. > :43:10.Review accuses them of aggressive attitudes. I had a case of a woman
:43:11. > :43:13.at home, with limited English, she could not dial 999 because she could
:43:14. > :43:18.not say where she lived and struggled with the questions. We
:43:19. > :43:23.should not be limiting a woman's opportunity to have conversations
:43:24. > :43:24.with anyone. She spoke of the fear people have about bringing up
:43:25. > :43:33.segregation issues but other -- others caution about going too
:43:34. > :43:36.far in the other direction. Many people in the Muslim community have
:43:37. > :43:40.tried for years to build relationships. When people like
:43:41. > :43:43.Louise Casey, for the government, focused too much on the Muslim
:43:44. > :43:48.community, it creates an even greater sense of feeling the rest of
:43:49. > :43:52.the world is against us. We must be so careful about it.
:43:53. > :43:55.Events like this are a positive sign that not everybody is convinced the
:43:56. > :44:01.integration effort across the region is worth applauding just yet...
:44:02. > :44:07.Yasmin, Louise Casey does not beat around the bush, she is explicit.
:44:08. > :44:11.Members of SummerSlam communities are not doing enough to integrate,
:44:12. > :44:22.is that fair? I disagree with her. I'm not impressed by her report --
:44:23. > :44:30.members of some Muslim communities. I do not accept this. But do you
:44:31. > :44:34.accept that SummerSlam women cannot leave their home without permission
:44:35. > :44:39.from their husband? If it happens to be true, fine. But that is not the
:44:40. > :44:43.case. Do you deny that it happens? It has not happened in any of my
:44:44. > :44:51.family. Are you saying that the report is inaccurate? My mother
:44:52. > :44:57.raised three children... We aren't talking about your mother Bert the
:44:58. > :45:01.fact it cannot -- but the fact it exists. I came from a traditional
:45:02. > :45:06.Muslim background, I don't remember my father stopping her from doing
:45:07. > :45:09.what she wanted to do. But that is your family, not every Muslim
:45:10. > :45:12.family. The report accepts that integration is getting better but
:45:13. > :45:17.there are pockets where it is terrible. But within all
:45:18. > :45:22.communities, especially religious communities, it is not just Muslim
:45:23. > :45:25.but other religions, there's a degree of some element of
:45:26. > :45:29.conservatism and if it's the case somebody is stopping their wife or
:45:30. > :45:33.someone from leaving home because they are stopping them, that is
:45:34. > :45:37.clearly wrong but if it is happening, of course it must be
:45:38. > :45:43.addressed. I think this report seems to have talked about that, and these
:45:44. > :45:48.issues when actually, the greater issue, as the gentleman in your
:45:49. > :45:55.report alluded to, a lot of people cannot afford to go out and into
:45:56. > :46:00.more expensive areas. Nigel, she has a point about socio economic
:46:01. > :46:04.elements. It is poverty causing segregation as much as religion. Is
:46:05. > :46:07.the Conservative government doing enough to address it? I think Yasmin
:46:08. > :46:13.has a point and we have to do more to integrate. I think it is pockets.
:46:14. > :46:18.The vast majority of the UK, I do not think there is a real issue that
:46:19. > :46:25.there are pockets. I remember going into Bradford where you can look on
:46:26. > :46:26.the streets... But it talks about poverty and social inequality leads
:46:27. > :46:36.to social Segregation. The only way we will
:46:37. > :46:41.get around that problem is by having a growing economic and creating more
:46:42. > :46:45.jobs, better paid jobs. The government is addressing that. When
:46:46. > :46:48.Theresa May was first elected as Prime Minister, she talked about
:46:49. > :46:53.immediately the people left behind. We will have a government that will
:46:54. > :46:59.work for them. For a lot of people left behind, there are people in
:47:00. > :47:03.these communities that Yasmin and the report addresses. But it's not
:47:04. > :47:07.happening at the rate we would like, is it? Not at all. We have to do
:47:08. > :47:13.more about it, and lowering taxes is a way of doing that, by the way! Not
:47:14. > :47:17.everybody agrees! We saw the water head Academy in that report were two
:47:18. > :47:24.schools that were quite segregated were pushed together.
:47:25. > :47:30.By combining the schools, it breeds respect and tolerance.
:47:31. > :47:34.It depends where problems are, in a vast majority of the country there
:47:35. > :47:38.are not issues but where there are pockets, I accept that there may be
:47:39. > :47:43.some were slim ladies told by their husbands that they cannot go out
:47:44. > :47:46.unless they have permission. I think it is awful... But is defending
:47:47. > :47:50.faith schools the right way? But there is not an issue within the
:47:51. > :47:55.vast majority of schools. Faith -based or not. There is not an
:47:56. > :47:58.issue, there is not a problem. People would dispute that, if you
:47:59. > :48:02.are only surrounded by people with the same heritage as you in terms of
:48:03. > :48:07.religion, it won't encourage integration once you leave school? I
:48:08. > :48:10.think the way that the school that was pictured, pushing two schools
:48:11. > :48:14.together and mixing them, where there is a real issue in that
:48:15. > :48:19.particular town then yes, you should address it. Yasmin, our faith
:48:20. > :48:25.schools the way forward? I do not think there are issues with faith
:48:26. > :48:30.schools. I think the issues are economic. We talk about communities
:48:31. > :48:36.together, for example. When there are an
:48:37. > :48:41.immigration issues, people coming into the same area where people knew
:48:42. > :48:46.each other, they live there and there were cheaper homes. A lot of
:48:47. > :48:53.those people and financially well off.
:48:54. > :48:56.-- are not. If you are from a nice detached house in the leafy part of
:48:57. > :48:59.town, I will take it but I cannot afford it. If there is any of that
:49:00. > :49:04.going... We will all take it! This programme has learned that most
:49:05. > :49:06.benefit claimants who've been moved onto Universal Credit are failing
:49:07. > :49:10.to pay their rent and running up Private landlords say the situation
:49:11. > :49:13.is 'unsustainable' and they're now refusing to house
:49:14. > :49:19.people receiving it. The government insists
:49:20. > :49:30.Universal Credit is working Lots of people who have got no money
:49:31. > :49:37.will be in arrears and could get evicted. Their rock people out there
:49:38. > :49:40.who cannot manage their money. -- there are people. People on benefits
:49:41. > :49:41.will be the last choice for landlords.
:49:42. > :49:43.The problems were widely predicted, and now, three years
:49:44. > :49:45.after it was introduced, landlords say they're millions
:49:46. > :49:53.of pounds out of pocket due to Universal Credit.
:49:54. > :49:57.In Speke, South Liverpool Homes runs this shop where people can
:49:58. > :50:09.For the ?2.50, it is ?15 worth of shopping.
:50:10. > :50:12.And the staff here tell stories of those on the benefits unable
:50:13. > :50:14.to manage their money and cover their bills.
:50:15. > :50:19.It is heartbreaking to see some of the people who come here. If you are
:50:20. > :50:23.given ?100 for your rent and your child needs some shoes or a coat, or
:50:24. > :50:25.something to eat... What will you do?
:50:26. > :50:30.Universal Credit brings together six benefits in one monthly payment.
:50:31. > :50:33.That's instead of weekly. But there can be weeks without money when
:50:34. > :50:37.claimants are moved onto it. After years of having their rent
:50:38. > :50:40.paid, and receiving any other money every week, it appears many
:50:41. > :50:42.claimants aren't managing, and it's led to a 64 percent
:50:43. > :50:48.increase in rent arrears. We have had to change our business
:50:49. > :50:54.plan assumptions to make sure that we can accommodate what we can
:50:55. > :50:57.predict. It could be a sizeable increase in rent arrears. And it's
:50:58. > :51:03.not just here people are struggling. The eight housing associations
:51:04. > :51:06.in the North West who gave us information said between them,
:51:07. > :51:08.2200 of their tenants are now All but one say among those tenants,
:51:09. > :51:14.rent arrears have increased. Arrears at New Charter Housing
:51:15. > :51:21.in Tameside are up 30% while at Helana Homes,
:51:22. > :51:23.94% of people on Universal In the private sector
:51:24. > :51:35.the Residential Landlords Association says the situation
:51:36. > :51:37.is 'unsustainable' and with 63% of those tenants who're receiving
:51:38. > :51:39.the new benefit in arrears. Their members are now refusing
:51:40. > :51:46.to take on new tenants If you do not get that rent payment
:51:47. > :51:48.on a regular basis committee could lose the property and the tenant
:51:49. > :51:50.would lose out because of that. "Reasons for rent arrears
:51:51. > :51:53.are complex so it's misleading It says "Universal Credit
:51:54. > :51:57.is designed to mirror the world of work and give people control
:51:58. > :52:02.over their own finances, With the roll out of
:52:03. > :52:04.Universal Credit set to continue, housing providers say they're expect
:52:05. > :52:07.the increase in rent This week, the annual State
:52:08. > :52:16.of the North conference It looks at how the region's
:52:17. > :52:20.economy, and levels of social The Chief executive
:52:21. > :52:22.of the Joseph Rowntree foundation was there -
:52:23. > :52:24.they work to combat poverty. I started by asking her
:52:25. > :52:27.whether Universal credit is making life harder for our most
:52:28. > :52:35.vulnerable. In principle, I think it is very
:52:36. > :52:38.good but there are many things about the design which are undoubtably
:52:39. > :52:42.making it more difficult for people. The sanctions regime and how
:52:43. > :52:45.payments are made, they are all matters of practice which could be
:52:46. > :52:48.changed but currently, they are making life very difficult for
:52:49. > :52:52.vulnerable people. And Steve think that the government gets it, but
:52:53. > :52:55.they'd be -- could they be doing they'd be -- could they be doing
:52:56. > :53:00.more to lift people out Earth poverty? It's down to local
:53:01. > :53:04.authorities and businesses to reverse this terrible trend of one
:53:05. > :53:07.in five people living in poverty. The government knows what it needs
:53:08. > :53:10.to do, research evidence is there and they have to work with local
:53:11. > :53:15.authorities to get it right. You will be leaving your role as the
:53:16. > :53:19.leader of the Joseph Rowntree foundation after a decade, in 2016,
:53:20. > :53:23.did you think that more than one in five people would be in poverty and
:53:24. > :53:26.more than half of them would be in work?
:53:27. > :53:29.We've been reporting the increasing number of people in work who are
:53:30. > :53:33.poor. Numbers have gone up in the last ten
:53:34. > :53:36.years and I would never have predicted that, that our labour
:53:37. > :53:40.market would become so insecure it would lead people in poverty. I
:53:41. > :53:43.would never have imagined one and a quarter million people in this year
:53:44. > :53:47.would be living destitute lives. The labour market has changed
:53:48. > :53:51.radically, but how much can the government do about it? Universal
:53:52. > :53:55.credit was designed to help people navigate our complex labour market.
:53:56. > :54:00.It's not kept up to speed with it, all with help the housing market
:54:01. > :54:03.operates. The government has to intervene to make sure we have
:54:04. > :54:07.enough housing so that people can be secure in their homes and that jobs
:54:08. > :54:10.do provide a decent route out of poverty.
:54:11. > :54:16.Some praise but she stops short of saying that it just isn't working,
:54:17. > :54:20.when it comes to the detail, the most vulnerable in society are
:54:21. > :54:24.really suffering? It's a mixed bag, I think things are improving but it
:54:25. > :54:28.is not enough for a lot of people. If you are talking about over 1
:54:29. > :54:32.million people living in poverty, we must do some thing about it. That is
:54:33. > :54:35.why I said about Theresa May talking about those who are struggling and
:54:36. > :54:40.clearly there are too many people who are struggling. We must make
:54:41. > :54:45.sure the benefits available are paid through, and the sanctions regime
:54:46. > :54:48.was mentioned. Sometimes I think the sanctions regime is used unfairly
:54:49. > :54:52.against people with mental health needs or something like that.
:54:53. > :54:55.Suddenly they end up with no money. Is it time to admit that universal
:54:56. > :55:00.credit is not working and sometimes it is best for the money to go to
:55:01. > :55:05.the landlord so it bypasses issues where we see people affected. It's
:55:06. > :55:10.early days, we have to look at the process where we see there are
:55:11. > :55:13.deficiencies. We must listen to someone from the Joseph Rowntree
:55:14. > :55:18.Association, she's been there ten years and knowing -- and knows
:55:19. > :55:21.exactly some of the issues there. We've always said the government,
:55:22. > :55:26.nobody should be better off out of work than in work. It's a major
:55:27. > :55:29.principle of universal credit and we must make certain that those who
:55:30. > :55:34.desperately need support get it. That is why they accepted that in
:55:35. > :55:38.some areas, the sliding scale of benefits works, compared to how much
:55:39. > :55:43.you are in work, it means you are incentivised to go back to work but
:55:44. > :55:46.people believe under Jeremy Corbyn it would not be the case.
:55:47. > :55:50.He wants to scrap caps on benefits and those who pay a lot of tax,
:55:51. > :55:55.believe they went to be rewarded in the same way? I doubt think it is
:55:56. > :56:07.such a bad system. Where it falls down, -- I do not think. Wait. Is
:56:08. > :56:11.the way the operators apply it. I have a number of constituents who
:56:12. > :56:16.have made decisions about benefits -- where it falls down is the way
:56:17. > :56:19.the operators apply it. When people are not getting their benefits
:56:20. > :56:23.right, they want to pay for their food and drink, and the rent will be
:56:24. > :56:27.the last thing they are thinking about. Or, when people are
:56:28. > :56:32.sanctioned unfairly. I had a case, and I've had a lot of them, where I
:56:33. > :56:36.cannot understand why people are being sanctioned. A young man told
:56:37. > :56:40.me he had to take a job, and he was happy to, but it meant that he had
:56:41. > :56:45.to get to work for 3am and he does not have a car and there is no
:56:46. > :56:48.public transport... What is the solution? People would argue that
:56:49. > :56:51.under Labour and Jeremy Corbyn, there are hand-outs going left right
:56:52. > :56:57.and centre. I don't think that is right. When Labour were in power,
:56:58. > :57:00.and when they've been out of power, there's aways been a need for a
:57:01. > :57:08.reasonable level of benefits so people can survive. It is right that
:57:09. > :57:12.these people work. But with what is happening with this or in the past,
:57:13. > :57:18.the way that the systems have been administrated with sanctions, it
:57:19. > :57:26.takes months and months for the arrears... It needs to be addressed,
:57:27. > :57:30.doesn't it? Those delays in payments have catastrophic consequences. Yes,
:57:31. > :57:34.in terms of human consequences but looking at rent arrears, it could
:57:35. > :57:39.well be that the system where money is not being paid direct me to the
:57:40. > :57:43.landlord has to be looked at again. If, at the end of the day, people
:57:44. > :57:46.are using rent money for other things, it is clearly wrong -- not
:57:47. > :57:51.being paid directly. The landlords are missing out and
:57:52. > :57:56.eventually the people because they wed get accommodation. Do you accept
:57:57. > :58:00.that, in a way, it has worked? People who have not known how to
:58:01. > :58:05.manage money have learned a lot which is a good thing? For me, I
:58:06. > :58:09.don't know if people have learned that much about management but what
:58:10. > :58:14.we seem to be learning is people who are not bad about management... If
:58:15. > :58:22.manage? The number of people I get manage? The number of people I get
:58:23. > :58:26.on different types of benefits, if something has gone wrong, and they
:58:27. > :58:30.aren't getting the money, people getting money in time are able to
:58:31. > :58:35.pay in time. A single mum with a couple of kids and suddenly they are
:58:36. > :58:39.on benefits, then it stops because of an unfair sanctioned... What
:58:40. > :58:42.happens? It is clearly cruel. It seems that you are both in agreement
:58:43. > :58:46.that there must be a slicker system to make sure they get benefits. We
:58:47. > :58:51.are singing from the same Now, are spending cuts soon to be
:58:52. > :58:58.a thing of the past? With that and the rest of the week's
:58:59. > :59:01.news, here's Judy Hobson. Could an end to austerity
:59:02. > :59:03.be on the cards? The Labour leader of Blackpool says
:59:04. > :59:12.the outlook for councils appears The scale of the challenge has been
:59:13. > :59:19.sheer chat I think we are getting there. -- has been huge.
:59:20. > :59:23.- were in Manchester to launch a charity to help victims
:59:24. > :59:27.The Offside Trust wants funding from The FA and Premier League.
:59:28. > :59:29.Plans for faster trains from Liverpool to Manchester
:59:30. > :59:31.and across to Yorkshire could be in the offing.
:59:32. > :59:33.But is the Transport Secretary sold on the idea?
:59:34. > :59:38.We need much faster journey times across the North. Are we going to
:59:39. > :59:42.see those promises come to fruition? I am waiting to see how transport
:59:43. > :59:44.from the North think we should live...
:59:45. > :59:47.A jury heard how Liverpool Wavertree MP Luciana Berger was subjected
:59:48. > :59:50.Joshua Bonehill-Paine was convicted of racially aggravated harassment.
:59:51. > :59:56.And the future's flatpack - Liverpool has 15,000 people
:59:57. > :59:58.on a waiting list for homes and reckons these could be
:59:59. > :00:07.Thank you to Yasmin Qureshi and Nigel Evans.
:00:08. > :00:09.I'll be back next week for a final appearance before Christmas.
:00:10. > :00:14.For now, I'll hand you back to Andrew Neil in London.
:00:15. > :00:16.still the biggest factor. We are running out of time.
:00:17. > :00:30.Now, Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was rebuked
:00:31. > :00:33.by Downing Street this week - yes, again - after the Guardian
:00:34. > :00:35.revealed he had accused Saudi Arabia of being among countries engaged
:00:36. > :00:37.in fighting "proxy wars" in the Middle East, breaking
:00:38. > :00:40.the Foreign Office's convention of not criticising a key UK ally
:00:41. > :00:43.in the region and annoying the prime minister who'd just returned
:00:44. > :00:50.The Defence Secretary Michael Fallon was asked about it
:00:51. > :00:57.And let's be very clear about this, the way some of his remarks
:00:58. > :01:00.were reported seemed to imply we didn't support the right
:01:01. > :01:03.of Saudi Arabia to defend itself, and it is being attacked by Houthi
:01:04. > :01:05.terrorists from over the border with Yemen,
:01:06. > :01:07.didn't support what Saudi is doing in leading the campaign to restore
:01:08. > :01:15.Some of the reporting led people to think that, and that is all...
:01:16. > :01:18.This was simply the way it was reported and interpreted.
:01:19. > :01:20.The way it was interpreted left people with the impression
:01:21. > :01:29.that we didn't support Saudi Arabia and we do.
:01:30. > :01:31.Well, Mr Johnson has been in the Saudi capital
:01:32. > :01:33.Riyadh this morning, so how's he been received?
:01:34. > :01:35.Our security correspondent Frank Gardner is in neighbouring
:01:36. > :01:41.Bahrain, where Mr Johnson was earlier in the weekend.
:01:42. > :01:47.It has probably been a long time since there has been such interest
:01:48. > :01:52.in a British Foreign Secretary visiting the gulf region. What are
:01:53. > :01:58.the political elites there making of it all? Well, they think to be
:01:59. > :02:03.honest it is a bit of a storm in a tea cup this is a bit of a Whitehall
:02:04. > :02:07.story, I think a lot of people I have spoken to tend to believe that
:02:08. > :02:12.Number Ten have made such a fuss about this, that it has created a
:02:13. > :02:17.story in itself. That said, though, I think that behind the scenes there
:02:18. > :02:21.was a certain amount of damage limitation taking place between
:02:22. > :02:26.London and Riyadh, a bit of smoothing of feathers and reassuring
:02:27. > :02:30.and the Stade Saudis tell me they are reassured the message they are
:02:31. > :02:34.taking is. Coming from Number Ten and they are not taking Boris
:02:35. > :02:39.Johnson's comments to heart. He is in the dam, he has met the king, I
:02:40. > :02:45.tweet add picture of that just a few minutes ago. He has been meeting
:02:46. > :02:49.Crown Prince, and he is now meeting the Foreign Minister, so the Saudis
:02:50. > :02:52.got an opportunity to brief him according to their vision of the
:02:53. > :02:56.Middle East. They will share their security concern, which is not just
:02:57. > :03:00.what is going on in Yemen, but they are very concerned about what they
:03:01. > :03:04.see as Iranian expansionism, that has been a theme here at this
:03:05. > :03:10.conference in Bahrain that Boris Johnson addressed only a day or two
:03:11. > :03:14.ago. If we put aside Mr Johnson's supposed gaffes or even the Downing
:03:15. > :03:20.Street slapping down of him, we have had the Prime Minister in the region
:03:21. > :03:26.earlier this week, we have got Mr Johnson there now, can we yet divine
:03:27. > :03:34.what the May Government strategy is in the Golf? -- Guff. In three
:03:35. > :03:42.words, in Boris Johnson's words Britain is back. He was very quick
:03:43. > :03:46.to say not in a jingoistic running up flags, new imperial list way,
:03:47. > :03:53.although that is Howley be seen by some. He gave a very forceful speech
:03:54. > :03:58.which seemed to go down well the gulf hosts here on Friday night
:03:59. > :04:04.which said Britain made a strategic mistake in, after 1968 in
:04:05. > :04:09.withdrawing east of Suez and it will reverse that decision, and invest ?3
:04:10. > :04:14.billion over the next ten years in building up its military not bases
:04:15. > :04:18.exactly but facilities -- facilities that are here in this part of the
:04:19. > :04:21.world. There are currently 15 hundred hundred British servicemen
:04:22. > :04:26.and women in this region, seven warships and so on. It isn't
:04:27. > :04:30.entirely true to say Britain withdrew east of Suez because we
:04:31. > :04:36.have had a military presence on and off here, the RAF had a base here in
:04:37. > :04:42.Bahrain during the Gulf War of 91. In 2003, of course, British planes
:04:43. > :04:47.and troops deployed from this area, but he and Theresa May are both
:04:48. > :04:52.saying post-Brexit, Britain's big emphasis or one of the big pushes is
:04:53. > :04:57.going to be to redouble its ties with gulf Arab nations, that isn't
:04:58. > :05:02.going to come as an easy bit of new, I think, to human rights campaigners
:05:03. > :05:08.and anti-arms campaigners because a large part of the ?7 billion of
:05:09. > :05:12.bilateral trade Britain did with Saudi Arabia comes from arms deals
:05:13. > :05:17.and those arms are being used in the conflict in Yemen, in some cases
:05:18. > :05:22.with tragic consequences. Thank you very much for talking to us.
:05:23. > :05:30.Instead of concentrating on Mr Johnson's gaffes, or Downing Street
:05:31. > :05:34.reaction to it. Frank Gardner there has just given us a really important
:05:35. > :05:39.development, or explained what the British are up to there now. They
:05:40. > :05:42.want to be back in the gulf big time. Isn't that something we should
:05:43. > :05:46.be debating and discussing? It is fascinating. It is yet another
:05:47. > :05:51.example post-Brexit I would say this is someone who voted to Brexit, that
:05:52. > :05:57.the world is changing, and Britain's role is going to be transformed
:05:58. > :06:02.post-Brexit. I mean just on the Boris point, I completely agree, I
:06:03. > :06:06.think a lot of it is ridiculous, in a Whitehall belt way stuff, but I
:06:07. > :06:11.think what is really important about it, is that Number Ten feel
:06:12. > :06:15.threatened by him, and the reason that these ridiculous gaffes and
:06:16. > :06:22.many of them are not even gaffes are pounced upon is he is the main rival
:06:23. > :06:25.for the Crown, so it is high level power play politics, and it is May
:06:26. > :06:31.trying to keep him in his place. What do you make though, of Britain
:06:32. > :06:36.is back in the gulf? That is the big story, is it not. Utterly bizarre,
:06:37. > :06:40.post imperial fantasy, the idea we are back east of Suez? We are
:06:41. > :06:45.breaking off from our closest ally, most like us, the rest of Europe,
:06:46. > :06:51.democratic, decent human rights country, and instead we are allying
:06:52. > :06:57.ourself to perilous, dangerous, unpleasant countries... Why should
:06:58. > :07:04.we be back in the gulf? If that is the trade off, these are, you know,
:07:05. > :07:09.these renasty kingdoms, petty unpleasant and unstable countries.
:07:10. > :07:13.Don't we have to keep the straits open otherwise the oil supply
:07:14. > :07:16.collapses and the world economy will go into the worst recession
:07:17. > :07:22.depression ever? Don't we have to be involved in that We do, and I think
:07:23. > :07:26.what happens is if we leave Europe and we need trade everywhere else,
:07:27. > :07:29.we have to travel the world on our knees begging for friends from the
:07:30. > :07:36.most unsavoury people, where ever they are, whether it is... You keep
:07:37. > :07:40.saying we are leaving Europe, that is a geographic impossibility.
:07:41. > :07:44.Britain is part of Europe, we are the... Not what Liam Fox is saying.
:07:45. > :07:49.The key power in Nato, we are leaving the European Union, that is
:07:50. > :07:55.a different Tring from Europe. I am trying to move away from Mr Johnson,
:07:56. > :08:00.or even Downing Street to... You got yourself into a Brexit row.
:08:01. > :08:04.Everything is through the prism of Brexit, even what you have for
:08:05. > :08:08.breakfast, when you mix up the word like I did last week. What do you
:08:09. > :08:13.make of what Frank Gardner told us? I am somewhere between the two. It
:08:14. > :08:16.is a nighs the line say we are back in the Middle East and we will take
:08:17. > :08:21.this part of the world seriously, the truth is our military is almost
:08:22. > :08:26.tiny, it is smaller than it was in the Napoleonic wars, that is not a
:08:27. > :08:31.huge amount more. Of course there S one of the two new aircraft
:08:32. > :08:36.carriers, that will be deployed in the gulf, to help the Americans keep
:08:37. > :08:44.the straits of her muz open, because it is in Europe's interest, not just
:08:45. > :08:49.Britains, Europe's interest that these straits stay open, which is
:08:50. > :08:54.more so than America. That is what FRANK was talking about. That is no
:08:55. > :09:01.change, British foreign policy has been keeping the straits open... Now
:09:02. > :09:07.we have the ability do it. We don't have an aircraft aier at the moment.
:09:08. > :09:15.Nor do we have the fleet of ships it needs. It is a great thing to be
:09:16. > :09:18.trade morgue with the Nice, to be turning -- Middle East, to be
:09:19. > :09:23.turning round more tax revenues and the like. Even selling weapons. I
:09:24. > :09:27.don't know what more can be done. You look at what has happened. BBC
:09:28. > :09:31.has had horrific reports from the Yemen and if you look at what the
:09:32. > :09:37.weapons are being used for, is that the trade we want? Right. Let us
:09:38. > :09:40.move on. Mr Corbyn was giving a speech yesterday but he was
:09:41. > :09:41.inter#ru79ded by Peter Tatchell. -- interrupted.
:09:42. > :09:54.Peter, could we leave this to the questions please?
:09:55. > :09:56.Peter, we are trying to make a speech here and then
:09:57. > :10:10.Was Peter Tatchell right do that yesterday? It is a bit of a
:10:11. > :10:16.distraction really. Jeremy Corbyn 17% in the polled is not going to be
:10:17. > :10:20.able to change... You mean his personal rating. If you want to do
:10:21. > :10:25.something about Syria you ought to be addressing the Government rather
:10:26. > :10:29.than a failing Labour leader. Peter Tatchell's line was Labour in
:10:30. > :10:35.general, Mr Corbyn in particular had not been vocal enough in condemning
:10:36. > :10:41.what the Russians and their Assad allies are doing in Aleppo. It was
:10:42. > :10:45.interesting Mr Corbyn had to ask Emily Thornberry if and when had
:10:46. > :10:53.they condemned what the Russians were doing? It was unclear. Other
:10:54. > :10:58.than Mrs Thornbury herself. There is a fascinating fault line in politics
:10:59. > :11:02.which is the Trump administration, the way in which parts of the
:11:03. > :11:08.British left have made themselves useful idiots once again for the
:11:09. > :11:11.Kremlin and it its policies. I think more broadly, you consider all the
:11:12. > :11:15.things we have been discussing, it is a national tragedy what is
:11:16. > :11:20.happening to the Labour Party. You don't know whether to laugh or cry
:11:21. > :11:24.watching that event. Corbyn was at a stop the war rally event only last
:11:25. > :11:29.week, and they of course are very close to the Kremlin, they blame the
:11:30. > :11:37.west, well they blame the west much more... They always blame the west.
:11:38. > :11:41.And not the Russians. I agree Jeremy Corbyn having to check with Emily
:11:42. > :11:47.Thornberry what the Labour Party's policy was on bombing Aleppo... If
:11:48. > :11:52.and when they condemned it. He needs to no better. The fact that we are
:11:53. > :11:56.talking about what was a pretty small scale protest, rather than
:11:57. > :12:01.anything Corbyn said, shows he wasn't saying anything relevant. We
:12:02. > :12:05.will get a huge amount of tweet saying the BBC are anti-Corbyn. I
:12:06. > :12:08.understand that, that shouldn't intimidate us from saying, from
:12:09. > :12:12.analysing what is happening, and here is one yard stick, of course it
:12:13. > :12:16.is fundamentally the Government's choice, but it could be an indicator
:12:17. > :12:22.of whether the Labour Party is relevant or not in only issues, in
:12:23. > :12:26.reason pert Murdoch is making a take over bid for all of Sky and so far
:12:27. > :12:32.you would have to bet, policy, that it is going to get through pretty
:12:33. > :12:35.much unscathed. It is extraordinary. It is connected with Leveson, and
:12:36. > :12:39.the fact that that has disappeared. That the idea of restraining the
:12:40. > :12:44.press in any way at all, and virtual will I the whole of the press is
:12:45. > :12:49.behind that, and it seems to go with allowing what wasn't allowed before.
:12:50. > :12:55.He was judged as unfit before. He is as unfit now, to control that much
:12:56. > :12:59.of the media, and as he was when he made the last bid for Sky. It is
:13:00. > :13:03.time people stood up and said so. You look at the press he runs, the
:13:04. > :13:08.cultural effect he has has on this country which has been appalling,
:13:09. > :13:15.you know about this. Tom, I better let you have a word. I don't agree
:13:16. > :13:21.at all Polly but the lesson for the Labour Party, is if they don't want
:13:22. > :13:25.to have any influence at all, they have to be credible, and stand a
:13:26. > :13:27.reasonable chance of becoming Prime Minister or becoming Government,
:13:28. > :13:32.that is the only way they will get leverage. We need to leave it there.
:13:33. > :13:38.I was going to say we will come back to it. We will see. The Daily
:13:39. > :13:41.Politics will be back at noon tomorrow.
:13:42. > :13:44.and we'll be back here next Sunday for the last show of 2016.
:13:45. > :13:52.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.