15/01/2017

:00:34. > :00:37.It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:38. > :00:41.Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

:00:42. > :00:44.of the EU's single market and its customs union?

:00:45. > :00:47.We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

:00:48. > :00:54.Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

:00:55. > :00:57.As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

:00:58. > :01:01.of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

:01:02. > :01:07.Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

:01:08. > :01:12.Piers Morgan, a man who knows him well, joins us live.

:01:13. > :01:15.And in the north-west, the NHS crisis here.

:01:16. > :01:18.Plus, a promise to improve mental health care for the next generation.

:01:19. > :01:32.And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

:01:33. > :01:35.hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

:01:36. > :01:43.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

:01:44. > :01:49.So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

:01:50. > :01:52.in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

:01:53. > :01:56.and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

:01:57. > :01:59.Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

:02:00. > :02:03.The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

:02:04. > :02:07.gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

:02:08. > :02:09.will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

:02:10. > :02:14.of the single market and customs union.

:02:15. > :02:16.The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

:02:17. > :02:19.they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

:02:20. > :02:23.The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

:02:24. > :02:26.hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

:02:27. > :02:29.And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

:02:30. > :02:32.explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

:02:33. > :02:35.and call for an end to free movement.

:02:36. > :02:37.Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

:02:38. > :02:38.I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

:02:39. > :02:46.of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

:02:47. > :02:51.Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

:02:52. > :02:55.most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

:02:56. > :03:01.But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

:03:02. > :03:04.that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

:03:05. > :03:09.the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

:03:10. > :03:12.the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

:03:13. > :03:17.basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

:03:18. > :03:21.with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

:03:22. > :03:24.stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

:03:25. > :03:28.British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

:03:29. > :03:32.ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

:03:33. > :03:36.upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

:03:37. > :03:40.position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

:03:41. > :03:45.and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

:03:46. > :03:50.it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

:03:51. > :03:54.the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

:03:55. > :03:59.believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

:04:00. > :04:02.resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

:04:03. > :04:07.Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

:04:08. > :04:11.negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

:04:12. > :04:14.really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

:04:15. > :04:20.fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

:04:21. > :04:25.whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

:04:26. > :04:29.the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

:04:30. > :04:32.Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

:04:33. > :04:37.final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

:04:38. > :04:43.Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

:04:44. > :04:47.Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

:04:48. > :04:50.a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

:04:51. > :04:55.introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

:04:56. > :04:58.It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

:04:59. > :05:02.servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

:05:03. > :05:06.deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

:05:07. > :05:12.the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

:05:13. > :05:15.Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

:05:16. > :05:18.You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

:05:19. > :05:20.jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

:05:21. > :05:27.of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

:05:28. > :05:31.it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

:05:32. > :05:34.good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

:05:35. > :05:38.that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

:05:39. > :05:41.nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

:05:42. > :05:46.best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

:05:47. > :05:50.that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

:05:51. > :05:53.union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

:05:54. > :05:57.package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

:05:58. > :06:01.better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

:06:02. > :06:05.travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

:06:06. > :06:09.Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

:06:10. > :06:12.and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

:06:13. > :06:15.the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

:06:16. > :06:20.believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

:06:21. > :06:27.for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

:06:28. > :06:30.ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

:06:31. > :06:35.continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

:06:36. > :06:39.what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

:06:40. > :06:43.Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

:06:44. > :06:45.membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

:06:46. > :06:52.amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

:06:53. > :06:55.believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

:06:56. > :06:59.I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

:07:00. > :07:03.people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

:07:04. > :07:08.individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

:07:09. > :07:13.your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

:07:14. > :07:18.freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

:07:19. > :07:22.Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

:07:23. > :07:25.don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

:07:26. > :07:31.without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

:07:32. > :07:34.depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

:07:35. > :07:39.white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

:07:40. > :07:42.flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

:07:43. > :07:46.corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

:07:47. > :07:52.that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

:07:53. > :07:58.members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

:07:59. > :08:02.of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

:08:03. > :08:05.many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

:08:06. > :08:09.you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

:08:10. > :08:12.aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

:08:13. > :08:16.that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

:08:17. > :08:20.very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

:08:21. > :08:24.in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

:08:25. > :08:30.answer to my question, you haven't answered it

:08:31. > :08:35.the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

:08:36. > :08:40.deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

:08:41. > :08:44.right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

:08:45. > :08:47.you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

:08:48. > :08:51.afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

:08:52. > :08:57.The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

:08:58. > :09:05.Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

:09:06. > :09:09.the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

:09:10. > :09:12.of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

:09:13. > :09:16.only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

:09:17. > :09:22.for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

:09:23. > :09:27.that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

:09:28. > :09:29.migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

:09:30. > :09:33.that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

:09:34. > :09:36.is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

:09:37. > :09:40.customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

:09:41. > :09:44.clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

:09:45. > :09:47.don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

:09:48. > :09:55.definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

:09:56. > :09:57.is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

:09:58. > :10:00.somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

:10:01. > :10:05.hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

:10:06. > :10:08.option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

:10:09. > :10:11.personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

:10:12. > :10:20.We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

:10:21. > :10:23.on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

:10:24. > :10:28.reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

:10:29. > :10:31.possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

:10:32. > :10:35.David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

:10:36. > :10:40.Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

:10:41. > :10:44.are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

:10:45. > :10:50.rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

:10:51. > :10:54.arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

:10:55. > :10:58.encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

:10:59. > :11:02.deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

:11:03. > :11:06.service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

:11:07. > :11:10.this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

:11:11. > :11:13.you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

:11:14. > :11:19.years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

:11:20. > :11:22.to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

:11:23. > :11:27.would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

:11:28. > :11:32.What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

:11:33. > :11:35.of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

:11:36. > :11:41.machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

:11:42. > :11:45.pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

:11:46. > :11:49.you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

:11:50. > :11:56.Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

:11:57. > :12:00.European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

:12:01. > :12:04.of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

:12:05. > :12:08.these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

:12:09. > :12:11.intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

:12:12. > :12:16.what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

:12:17. > :12:19.Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

:12:20. > :12:22.markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

:12:23. > :12:27.doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

:12:28. > :12:30.it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

:12:31. > :12:32.Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

:12:33. > :12:35.week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

:12:36. > :12:36.enact a controversial piece of legislation.

:12:37. > :12:39.Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

:12:40. > :12:42.could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

:12:43. > :12:52.If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

:12:53. > :12:54.The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

:12:55. > :12:57.while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

:12:58. > :12:58.a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

:12:59. > :13:04.Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

:13:05. > :13:08.It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

:13:09. > :13:13.a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

:13:14. > :13:16.They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

:13:17. > :13:19.It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

:13:20. > :13:28.a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

:13:29. > :13:32.and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

:13:33. > :13:33.which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

:13:34. > :13:36.If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

:13:37. > :13:37.that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

:13:38. > :13:40.like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

:13:41. > :13:46.To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

:13:47. > :13:50.the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

:13:51. > :13:53.publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

:13:54. > :13:57.costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

:13:58. > :14:00.It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

:14:01. > :14:04.We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

:14:05. > :14:06.This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

:14:07. > :14:12.of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

:14:13. > :14:15.from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

:14:16. > :14:21.It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

:14:22. > :14:27.I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

:14:28. > :14:28.you have an incomplete Leveson project.

:14:29. > :14:31.I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

:14:32. > :14:34.there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

:14:35. > :14:36.standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

:14:37. > :14:39."Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

:14:40. > :14:41.Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

:14:42. > :14:50.We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

:14:51. > :14:52.for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

:14:53. > :14:55.They get huge new protections from libel threats,

:14:56. > :14:57.from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

:14:58. > :15:06.a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

:15:07. > :15:09.Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

:15:10. > :15:14.Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

:15:15. > :15:16.the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

:15:17. > :15:23.doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

:15:24. > :15:26.The male cells around 22,000 each day...

:15:27. > :15:28.There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

:15:29. > :15:31.won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

:15:32. > :15:35.are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

:15:36. > :15:38.Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

:15:39. > :15:39.through the recognition setup that it has.

:15:40. > :15:42.Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

:15:43. > :15:45.when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

:15:46. > :15:52.If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

:15:53. > :15:57.we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

:15:58. > :16:00.The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

:16:01. > :16:01.since the Government launched its consultation

:16:02. > :16:04.In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

:16:05. > :16:09.And for that reason alone, it could take months before

:16:10. > :16:13.a decision on what happens next is taken.

:16:14. > :16:16.The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

:16:17. > :16:22.One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

:16:23. > :16:24.So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

:16:25. > :16:33.I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

:16:34. > :16:36.What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

:16:37. > :16:41.on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

:16:42. > :16:44.was failing to work, was not delivering effective

:16:45. > :16:47.regulation and the press were behaving in a way

:16:48. > :16:52.which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

:16:53. > :16:56.then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

:16:57. > :16:58.case we are going to have to take further measures,

:16:59. > :17:03.The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

:17:04. > :17:06.I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

:17:07. > :17:10.about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

:17:11. > :17:13.to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

:17:14. > :17:16.But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

:17:17. > :17:26.I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

:17:27. > :17:29.Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

:17:30. > :17:33.and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

:17:34. > :17:42.Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

:17:43. > :17:46.that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:47. > :17:51.press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:52. > :17:55.we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:56. > :17:59.into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:18:00. > :18:04.absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:18:05. > :18:09.like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

:18:10. > :18:10.hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:11. > :18:38.means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:39. > :18:40.many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

:18:41. > :18:42.does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:43. > :18:45.You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:46. > :18:48.People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:49. > :18:51.from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:52. > :18:55.but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:56. > :19:01.money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

:19:02. > :19:05.from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

:19:06. > :19:10.the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

:19:11. > :19:13.because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:14. > :19:23.most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

:19:24. > :19:28.the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:29. > :19:34.influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:35. > :19:39.lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:40. > :19:47.historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:48. > :19:52.family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

:19:53. > :19:57.control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

:19:58. > :20:01.the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:20:02. > :20:07.completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:08. > :20:11.wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

:20:12. > :20:17.because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

:20:18. > :20:21.curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

:20:22. > :20:27.press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

:20:28. > :20:31.Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:32. > :20:39.is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

:20:40. > :20:45.tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:46. > :20:51.advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:52. > :20:56.Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:57. > :21:00.be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:21:01. > :21:04.press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

:21:05. > :21:09.reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:10. > :21:11.selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:12. > :21:16.absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:17. > :21:21.Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:22. > :21:27.remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:28. > :21:33.He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:34. > :21:41.the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:42. > :21:58.do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:59. > :22:04.code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

:22:05. > :22:08.be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:09. > :22:13.against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:14. > :22:19.wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:20. > :22:30.I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:31. > :22:38.wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

:22:39. > :22:42.Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:43. > :22:46.people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:47. > :22:53.but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:54. > :22:56.have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:57. > :23:02.about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:23:03. > :23:08.possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:09. > :23:13.asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:14. > :23:19.the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:20. > :23:26.some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:27. > :23:30.the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:31. > :23:36.newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:37. > :23:40.enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:41. > :23:47.their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:48. > :23:56.they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:57. > :24:06.won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:24:07. > :24:10.fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:11. > :24:15.relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:16. > :24:19.The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:20. > :24:23.against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:24. > :24:29.understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:30. > :24:36.boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:37. > :24:45.Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:46. > :24:54.Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:55. > :24:59.would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:25:00. > :25:04.compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:25:05. > :25:08.papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:09. > :25:15.they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:16. > :25:19.regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:20. > :25:24.own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:25. > :25:29.one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:30. > :25:32.expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:33. > :25:37.the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:38. > :25:42.either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:43. > :25:54.approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:55. > :26:03.independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:26:04. > :26:07.a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:08. > :26:10.Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:11. > :26:14.to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:15. > :26:17.have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:18. > :26:23.expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:24. > :26:27.which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:28. > :26:31.up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:32. > :26:39.potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:40. > :26:45.the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:46. > :26:52.the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:53. > :26:55.it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:56. > :27:00.journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:27:01. > :27:04.scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:27:05. > :27:11.that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:12. > :27:15.equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:16. > :27:20.judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:21. > :27:25.saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:26. > :27:31.should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:32. > :27:35.is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:36. > :27:41.what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:42. > :27:46.something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:47. > :27:49.happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:50. > :27:53.circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:54. > :27:57.that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:58. > :28:02.because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:28:03. > :28:07.That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:08. > :28:13.newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:14. > :28:19.Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:20. > :28:22.outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:23. > :28:26.bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:27. > :28:35.the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:36. > :28:39.guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:40. > :28:43.The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:44. > :28:48.somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:49. > :28:52.can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:53. > :28:53.The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:54. > :28:56.has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:57. > :29:00.The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:29:01. > :29:03.open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:29:04. > :29:05.The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:06. > :29:08.It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:09. > :29:10.had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:11. > :29:17.At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:18. > :29:19.or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:20. > :29:25.On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:26. > :29:28.that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:29. > :29:36.But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:37. > :29:38.He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:39. > :29:43.On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:44. > :29:45.to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:46. > :29:51.paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:52. > :29:55.On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:56. > :30:00.told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:30:01. > :30:04.And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:30:05. > :30:08.The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:09. > :30:12.was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:13. > :30:15.And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:16. > :30:22.46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:23. > :30:26.Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:27. > :30:29.opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:30. > :30:36.To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:37. > :30:39.MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:40. > :30:42.life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:43. > :30:52.Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:53. > :30:57.saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:58. > :31:00.enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:31:01. > :31:04.think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:05. > :31:09.have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:10. > :31:13.still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:14. > :31:18.GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:19. > :31:23.an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:24. > :31:26.is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:27. > :31:30.cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:31. > :31:34.wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:35. > :31:37.forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:38. > :31:47.to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:48. > :31:50.A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:51. > :31:53.play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:54. > :31:56.patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:57. > :32:00.by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:32:01. > :32:04.hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:32:05. > :32:09.Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:10. > :32:14.shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:15. > :32:17.or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:18. > :32:25.physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:26. > :32:29.most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:30. > :32:32.don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:33. > :32:36.working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:37. > :32:42.profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:43. > :32:49.Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:50. > :32:52.half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:53. > :32:56.of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:57. > :33:01.working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:33:02. > :33:05.not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:06. > :33:08.working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:09. > :33:12.if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:13. > :33:19.the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:20. > :33:21.out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:22. > :33:24.runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:25. > :33:29.contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:30. > :33:34.tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:35. > :33:36.the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:37. > :33:40.this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:41. > :33:45.practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:46. > :33:51.there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:52. > :33:54.are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:55. > :33:57.offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:58. > :34:02.they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:34:03. > :34:06.saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:07. > :34:10.one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:11. > :34:14.keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:15. > :34:18.should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:19. > :34:24.their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:25. > :34:29.upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:30. > :34:33.highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:34. > :34:39.the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:40. > :34:42.don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:43. > :34:47.enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:48. > :34:52.practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:53. > :34:56.advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:57. > :35:01.need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:35:02. > :35:05.short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:06. > :35:09.associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:10. > :35:12.practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:13. > :35:17.junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:18. > :35:20.this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:21. > :35:26.system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:27. > :35:31.1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:32. > :35:35.with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:36. > :35:39.when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:40. > :35:44.that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:45. > :35:48.where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:49. > :35:52.saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:53. > :35:54.services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:55. > :35:59.follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:36:00. > :36:02.it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:36:03. > :36:07.station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:08. > :36:14.it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:15. > :36:16.recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:17. > :36:19.haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:20. > :36:23.them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:24. > :36:26.professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:27. > :36:30.what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:31. > :36:35.you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:36. > :36:39.the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:40. > :36:42.patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:43. > :36:48.lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:49. > :36:52.necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:53. > :36:56.up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:57. > :36:59.things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:37:00. > :37:02.doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:37:03. > :37:07.empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:08. > :37:11.We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:12. > :37:15.our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:16. > :37:19.general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:20. > :37:23.wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:24. > :37:27.lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:28. > :37:30.We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:31. > :37:32.subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:33. > :37:35.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:36. > :37:37.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20

:37:38. > :37:46.minutes: The Week Ahead. I'm Nina Warhurst, coming up

:37:47. > :37:49.in the north-west... A promise to improve mental health

:37:50. > :37:52.care for the next generation. And joining me to discuss that

:37:53. > :37:57.and the rest of this week's news are Graham Evans,

:37:58. > :38:00.the Conservative MP for Weaver Vale, and Lisa Nandy, who's the MP

:38:01. > :38:04.for Wigan for the Labour Party. But before we move on to mental

:38:05. > :38:09.health, this week 50 leading doctors wrote to the Prime Minister asking

:38:10. > :38:11.that she secure long-term We are in a crisis,

:38:12. > :38:18.and it is a humane crisis, because it is a crisis

:38:19. > :38:21.which is affecting human beings and there is a person at the top

:38:22. > :38:35.of the food chain is in denial Mark Holland there,

:38:36. > :38:40.who is a doctor from Manchester. Graham, this topic is so toxic

:38:41. > :38:43.that the health minister was meant to come on this programme

:38:44. > :38:45.but had to cancel. Number ten apparently asked him

:38:46. > :38:47.to because of that subject. Is the government in

:38:48. > :38:49.denial about the extent It's no surprise

:38:50. > :38:54.that we are in winter, but the National Health Service

:38:55. > :38:58.is dealing with more The Tuesday after Christmas

:38:59. > :39:01.was a record breaking number And it is winter time,

:39:02. > :39:05.people come back on the new year and find that they're

:39:06. > :39:06.not feeling well. And so, it is a very difficult time,

:39:07. > :39:09.I'm not disputing that, but the government has worked very

:39:10. > :39:12.hard in the NHS. We've committed ?10 billion

:39:13. > :39:14.since the election, there will be It's clearly not

:39:15. > :39:20.enough though, is it? You've got leading experts in every

:39:21. > :39:23.field throughout health care saying Well, no, the Prime Minister hasn't

:39:24. > :39:29.got her head in the sand. But we did ask the NHS before

:39:30. > :39:31.the general election how much they needed, and they asked

:39:32. > :39:34.for ?8 billion additional income, And we're actually going to be

:39:35. > :39:39.supplying ?10 billion by 2020. Isn't that a figure that's been

:39:40. > :39:41.disputed by Simon Stevens? Well, the figures have been

:39:42. > :39:44.disputed, but we did ask I'm not an expert, they are asked

:39:45. > :39:56.and that was the figure. Simon Stevens, the chief executive

:39:57. > :39:59.of the NHS England has said that the Prime Minister

:40:00. > :40:01.is stretching the truth when it I think that's it, that really

:40:02. > :40:06.is Simon Stevens at his worst. As I say, we as politicians asked

:40:07. > :40:11.Simon Stevens how much he wanted. We're committing

:40:12. > :40:13.?10 billion by 2020. Let's have a look at the figures

:40:14. > :40:16.leaked to us on the time ambulances have been left waiting

:40:17. > :40:18.at some hospitals. On the 4th of January,

:40:19. > :40:20.an ambulance was waiting for more The day before at North Manchester

:40:21. > :40:28.General, it was almost nine hours. And on the 12th of December,

:40:29. > :40:30.the longest turnaround time The Prime Minister denying that this

:40:31. > :40:37.is a humanitarian crisis. You could argue, relatives of anyone

:40:38. > :40:40.lay on a stretcher for nine hours Well, I don't accept that it's

:40:41. > :40:44.a humanitarian crisis. I work in defence and security,

:40:45. > :40:47.and if you look at what's going on in Syria and the civilians

:40:48. > :40:50.in Aleppo and elsewhere in Syria, I'm not disputing for a moment that

:40:51. > :40:54.we're going through a difficult time, but to say the Prime Minister

:40:55. > :40:57.isn't on top of this, And we're all working hard

:40:58. > :41:01.to work with the NHS Lisa, using language

:41:02. > :41:12.like a humanitarian crisis as the Red Cross did,

:41:13. > :41:14.is that overblowing the situation? I think it's fairly significant

:41:15. > :41:17.coming from the British Red Cross. That is more used to working

:41:18. > :41:20.in war-torn areas like Syria and the sorts of places that Graham

:41:21. > :41:22.was just describing. The truth is that hospitals

:41:23. > :41:24.and A in particular, are barometers for the health

:41:25. > :41:27.of the wider health And what we've seen over the last

:41:28. > :41:30.six years is not just huge cuts to hospitals,

:41:31. > :41:33.not only Simon Stevens but also the Tory chair of the health select

:41:34. > :41:35.committee has said that the government is not

:41:36. > :41:37.putting in the funding We've also seen massive sweeping

:41:38. > :41:43.cuts to social care, and that's meant many people,

:41:44. > :41:45.particularly older people, are coming into hospitals

:41:46. > :41:53.through the Ambulance Service It's social care,

:41:54. > :42:00.its pressure on GP translating to red alert

:42:01. > :42:02.across emergency services. I've visited some GPs this

:42:03. > :42:05.morning ahead of the show. We're committing ?3.5 billion

:42:06. > :42:08.to adult social care. And there are some examples of good

:42:09. > :42:12.practice, and best practice. Where we see best practice

:42:13. > :42:14.in the north-west, in Lisa's very own constituency in Wigan,

:42:15. > :42:17.and also in Salford where they have integrated networks to get patients

:42:18. > :42:21.out of hospital into... By constituency is a very

:42:22. > :42:24.good example of this. Where we are consistently one

:42:25. > :42:27.of the top performing hospital trusts in the region,

:42:28. > :42:29.and outperform many But even my hospital trust

:42:30. > :42:33.in the last few weeks has failed to meet those waiting time targets,

:42:34. > :42:38.those four hour waiting time targets in A, as have

:42:39. > :42:40.hospitals across the country. And the reality of that is

:42:41. > :42:43.ambulances queueing at hospitals and people lying on trolleys

:42:44. > :42:46.in hospital corridors, as they did when I was growing up

:42:47. > :42:50.under a Tory government in this We urgently need to take

:42:51. > :42:54.the politics out of this, Do you accept they need

:42:55. > :43:02.to be cross-party talks? We need more money into the NHS,

:43:03. > :43:07.and we need to be honest with people I grew up under a Labour

:43:08. > :43:15.government in the 1970s, and the health system that under

:43:16. > :43:17.a Labour government I would like to take politics out

:43:18. > :43:21.of it, as Lisa says, to work together and stop

:43:22. > :43:23.using the NHS as a We've committed ?10 billion

:43:24. > :43:27.extra funding by 2020, but there is clearly more to do,

:43:28. > :43:34.certainly in adult social care. But you think the reason

:43:35. > :43:36.they will agree to the call that was made by three

:43:37. > :43:39.of your own Tory colleagues and several Labour and Liberal

:43:40. > :43:41.Democrat MPs this week, to set up cross-party

:43:42. > :43:43.talks on the future Well, I can't talk

:43:44. > :43:46.for the Prime Minister, but I think that's a good

:43:47. > :43:48.suggestion, the politicians Certainly in the north-west

:43:49. > :43:52.and as Lisa says, where you have examples of best practice,

:43:53. > :43:54.in your constituency and elsewhere, For my constituency,

:43:55. > :43:57.for Cheshire West and Chester. So you both agree the Prime Minister

:43:58. > :44:00.needs to agree on cross-party She needs to put the funding

:44:01. > :44:04.in place to care for people More elderly patients are increasing

:44:05. > :44:08.the NHS costs and this week the government concentrated though

:44:09. > :44:11.on young people, announcing plans There will be more teacher training,

:44:12. > :44:15.more money for community health As Kevin Fitzpatrick now reports,

:44:16. > :44:18.waiting times for treatment in parts of this region are among the worst

:44:19. > :44:21.in the country. Mental health problems affect people

:44:22. > :44:25.of all ages and all backgrounds. The Prime Minister describes it

:44:26. > :44:29.as a hidden injustice, and wants to change attitudes

:44:30. > :44:32.towards mental illness. So does Jake Mills from Liverpool,

:44:33. > :44:35.who tried to end his And we're being kind

:44:36. > :44:47.of facetious about it. If there was a disease that existed

:44:48. > :44:50.that was killing more men in this country under the age of 49,

:44:51. > :44:53.and it was preventable and treatable, we would

:44:54. > :44:57.all be experts on it. Taken an overdose of

:44:58. > :44:59.prescribed medication. Hospital psychiatric teams

:45:00. > :45:01.are increasingly dealing with people in crisis,

:45:02. > :45:03.and the level of Patients with depression

:45:04. > :45:08.or anxiety weight eight days for treatment in Liverpool,

:45:09. > :45:15.below the national average of 19. But greater Manchester is among

:45:16. > :45:21.the worst in the country, 41 days in North Manchester,

:45:22. > :45:25.46 in central Manchester. And more than seven weeks

:45:26. > :45:29.in South Manchester. More young people particularly young

:45:30. > :45:31.girls and young women There's an awful lot more self harm

:45:32. > :45:40.and threat of suicide. So it's realy stepped up

:45:41. > :45:43.in terms of demand at a time And the Moodswings charity

:45:44. > :45:47.in Manchester, staff try to understand the underlying

:45:48. > :45:49.causes of people's distress. Its chair claims mental health

:45:50. > :45:51.services are under pressure, because too many people

:45:52. > :45:54.are prescribed drugs or referred The answer is to look

:45:55. > :46:00.at what we're doing, have a fundamental look

:46:01. > :46:03.at what we're going and start to see having human problems,

:46:04. > :46:06.rather than patients Jake Mills believes he's

:46:07. > :46:14.proof that you can return from the darkest of places,

:46:15. > :46:16.but many say that for mental health to get the same

:46:17. > :46:19.recognition as physical health, Again, I think we all agree

:46:20. > :46:26.that cases like Jake's are upsetting and there needs

:46:27. > :46:32.to be more investment. But really, Graham,

:46:33. > :46:34.?50 million across the country. Are we supposed to

:46:35. > :46:36.take that seriously? Well, unfortunately mental health

:46:37. > :46:38.has been the poor relation in the NHS and all parties were far

:46:39. > :46:43.too long, and the Prime Minister... ?50 million, it feels

:46:44. > :46:45.like it very much still is! The Prime Minister, one of her first

:46:46. > :46:48.speeches was on mental health, and putting it as a priority

:46:49. > :46:51.to the government in future. Again, if we can work

:46:52. > :46:53.together cross-party on this to really get it there,

:46:54. > :46:55.centrestage, because it has a huge impact on families

:46:56. > :46:57.across the country. It's tough, isn't it Lisa,

:46:58. > :47:00.because this is something that again breaches over into social care

:47:01. > :47:03.and often diagnosis is the trickiest Yeah, so I really applaud

:47:04. > :47:07.Theresa May for making this her first speech on health,

:47:08. > :47:10.because too often as you said, it becomes the afterthought

:47:11. > :47:13.or the poor relation. The problem is that when you look

:47:14. > :47:20.at the concrete measures that she actually announced,

:47:21. > :47:22.?50 million, just And not really compensating

:47:23. > :47:25.actually for the money that was previously promised

:47:26. > :47:27.and that never materialised. And there are some concrete things

:47:28. > :47:30.that you could do to deal with this. For example, last time

:47:31. > :47:32.George Osborne promised money for mental health,

:47:33. > :47:34.that money never actually went into mental health

:47:35. > :47:35.because cash-strapped trusts and clinical commissioning groups

:47:36. > :47:38.were actually taking that money and using it to pay

:47:39. > :47:46.for other priorities. And also, if we're salami slicing

:47:47. > :47:52.things like children's centres, youth services, 15 million then

:47:53. > :47:55.spread out, it's not going to mean Well, there is more to be done,

:47:56. > :47:59.but at least we met In fact, to pay tribute to one

:48:00. > :48:03.of your colleagues who is one of the first to stand up

:48:04. > :48:05.and in Parliament. We discuss mental health

:48:06. > :48:07.in Parliament, that wasn't And yes, there is a long way to go,

:48:08. > :48:12.we have far more to do, It is at centre stage,

:48:13. > :48:17.but there is an awful lot I mean, I would say that

:48:18. > :48:21.actually this is a crisis. I would say that it's

:48:22. > :48:24.going much further than... That is deeply offensive to people

:48:25. > :48:29.who are waiting significant amounts There are some people in greater

:48:30. > :48:34.Manchester who wait more than 90 days to see a counsellor

:48:35. > :48:36.when they're in crisis. I've had cases in my constituency,

:48:37. > :48:39.you will have done too. I had a young girl who was left

:48:40. > :48:42.sitting in a waiting room when she was suicidal al night,

:48:43. > :48:44.and then sent home. Not actually because of a lack

:48:45. > :48:47.of a bed, but for lack of an ambulance to get her

:48:48. > :48:49.to that bed. There are real, real problems facing

:48:50. > :48:52.people now, and it is a crisis. We all have examples

:48:53. > :48:57.in our constituencies, It was taboo subject up

:48:58. > :49:05.until fairly recently. It's really good that the Prime

:49:06. > :49:08.Minister is taking it as a lead, and I'm hoping in future we can

:49:09. > :49:11.get more money. We cannot magic more

:49:12. > :49:14.money out of the air. We need to have a stronger economy,

:49:15. > :49:17.stronger economy and stronger NHS. We're going to have to stop,

:49:18. > :49:22.because I know we're going to be coming back to this

:49:23. > :49:24.throughout the year. That's the NHS and mental

:49:25. > :49:26.health services. We're going to look now

:49:27. > :49:29.at what else is in the political Stuart Pollitt has called on three

:49:30. > :49:33.of our wisest minds to look ahead. Let's hope they do a better job

:49:34. > :49:41.than last year's experts. 2016 wasn't exactly a great year

:49:42. > :49:44.for political predictions, was it? We've gathered three experts to see

:49:45. > :49:57.what 2017 has in store. First on the agenda,

:49:58. > :50:03.the upcoming mayoral elections. Are they in danger

:50:04. > :50:06.of being a bit dull? I think we probably know

:50:07. > :50:11.who's going to win. I don't think Andy Burnham Steve

:50:12. > :50:14.Rotherham will be too worried But they could still be

:50:15. > :50:17.interesting contests. Do you see any possible challenge

:50:18. > :50:19.to a Labour victory? It's very hard to see Labour doing

:50:20. > :50:22.anything other than winning. But there is, there are questions

:50:23. > :50:26.about the extent of the victory and very interesting to see

:50:27. > :50:29.where the challenge comes from. It will be very interesting to see

:50:30. > :50:32.what happens with the Ukip vote there, and also some

:50:33. > :50:34.of the more fringe candidates. You know, the Women's Equality

:50:35. > :50:37.Party, you know, did very well It might be interesting

:50:38. > :50:40.to see how their greater Particularly in the

:50:41. > :50:45.preferential voting system. Just to pick up on that I think

:50:46. > :50:48.is well, about the challenge that will happen with the by-election

:50:49. > :50:51.for Andy Burnham's seat, whether or not Ukip will present

:50:52. > :50:55.a challenge within that In terms of Ukip, not sure that

:50:56. > :51:02.I buy into this idea that Paul Nuttall is going to deliver

:51:03. > :51:04.them lots of working-class I'd be amazed if Ukip ever

:51:05. > :51:08.wins parliamentary seat Andy Burnham's seat, that's the one

:51:09. > :51:13.they look at, isn't it? I accept there are certain

:51:14. > :51:16.constituencies where they ought to be winning, given the profile

:51:17. > :51:19.of Leave versus Remain But also, you know,

:51:20. > :51:22.the Conservatives could really kind But also, don't write off

:51:23. > :51:29.the Liberal Democrats. Tim Farron's put his eggs

:51:30. > :51:31.into the pro-Europe basket. This is a crucial year

:51:32. > :51:33.for the Liberal Democrats, not just in the north-west

:51:34. > :51:36.but nationally, because they have to try and grab the agenda,

:51:37. > :51:38.focus people's attention. You know, they might try

:51:39. > :51:40.and define themselves We do have one fascinating contest

:51:41. > :51:45.which will test all the parties, and that's the election

:51:46. > :51:48.to Lancashire County Council in May. Because that's a council

:51:49. > :51:51.that is under no overall control. Because if Labour fails to take

:51:52. > :51:57.Lancashire County Council at this stage of the electoral cycle,

:51:58. > :52:00.you know, that's a very damning It's also Cumbria, and in both

:52:01. > :52:06.of those errors you've got no overall control and a mixture

:52:07. > :52:09.of the Lib Dems and Labour being, It's really interesting to see how

:52:10. > :52:17.that anti-Conservative There is a certain brand loyalty

:52:18. > :52:20.to Labour here in the north-west. The problem for Labour is it's not

:52:21. > :52:23.being replicated further afield. That brand loyalty also

:52:24. > :52:25.is being stretched. 2017 is going to be volatile and

:52:26. > :52:28.it's going to be a lot of change. And the Conservatives are very

:52:29. > :52:31.much on the back foot. The next six months

:52:32. > :52:34.are going to be key for them. I mean, the Conservatives have got

:52:35. > :52:36.a very, very difficult year ahead. They're very divided

:52:37. > :52:39.on whether they want to remain as part of the European single

:52:40. > :52:41.market or not. They've got to come

:52:42. > :52:43.to their conference here in Manchester on the 1st of October

:52:44. > :52:46.this year, and be united The other thing that will be sorted

:52:47. > :52:49.out this year of course is the electoral boundaries

:52:50. > :52:51.in the north-west, I mean, that is one of the key

:52:52. > :52:57.reasons why I don't think there'll be a general election in 2017,

:52:58. > :52:59.is because the Conservatives want to make sure that the new

:53:00. > :53:02.boundaries are in place. One thing I can be sure of,

:53:03. > :53:05.that the three of you will be in for an interesting year no

:53:06. > :53:07.matter what happens. Andrew Russell than saying

:53:08. > :53:11.he doesn't think there will be I think there probably

:53:12. > :53:15.will, actually. My feeling is, if I was Theresa May,

:53:16. > :53:18.she wasn't elected by the country. She wasn't even elected

:53:19. > :53:21.from Conservative Party members, she's inherited this situation

:53:22. > :53:23.where we're leaving the European Union without any

:53:24. > :53:27.planning whatsoever I think she probably has

:53:28. > :53:32.to go to the country, and I think most likely if anyone

:53:33. > :53:34.can predict anything about this very unpredictable year,

:53:35. > :53:39.I would say that she will set out her sort of broad parameters

:53:40. > :53:42.and then call a general election Even if we trigger Article 50

:53:43. > :53:46.in March, is that not...? Well, she still not officially

:53:47. > :53:49.committed to triggering Article 50 in March,

:53:50. > :53:51.but I guess we'll Ought she trigger a general

:53:52. > :53:55.election as well? This is one of the most

:53:56. > :54:03.significant changes I'm not asking for

:54:04. > :54:06.a general election. Because I've just about recovered

:54:07. > :54:13.from 2015 marginal seat. I worked very hard

:54:14. > :54:15.to reduce my majority! Majority MPs of all parties tend not

:54:16. > :54:18.to want general elections. The great British public out

:54:19. > :54:20.there are sort of referendum-ed and election-ed out,

:54:21. > :54:22.so we don't really On a serious point, the threat

:54:23. > :54:31.of a Corbyn government would be You mentioned what we've got to do

:54:32. > :54:35.with Brexit in March. You need a very, very strong leader

:54:36. > :54:38.at the helm during this very She has to get through Brexit

:54:39. > :54:43.and 2017 is that year. We do not want any general elections

:54:44. > :54:48.destabilising the economy. I would say there's

:54:49. > :54:56.a better chance of having But, I mean, you're talking

:54:57. > :55:01.to somebody who thought that it was most likely that

:55:02. > :55:04.Yvette Cooper was going to win the Labour leadership contest

:55:05. > :55:06.the first time round. Speaking of Jeremy Corbyn,

:55:07. > :55:12.it has been a bumpy start This week, I met with him

:55:13. > :55:16.at Westminster and asked him if he agreed with our viewers,

:55:17. > :55:19.who told me he's out of touch with traditional Labour

:55:20. > :55:20.voters on immigration. What I want to do is end

:55:21. > :55:25.the undercutting of existing pay and conditions, the exploitation

:55:26. > :55:27.of people in awful The north-west of England told

:55:28. > :55:37.you with the Brexit vote, You're assuming that all those

:55:38. > :55:41.who voted Brexit voted on one issue. There are many issues

:55:42. > :55:43.people voted on. We need to have an economic

:55:44. > :55:45.relationship with Europe in the future, that's what Labour

:55:46. > :55:47.is committed to. That's why we're working

:55:48. > :55:50.with colleagues across Europe. Paul Nuttall is the new leader

:55:51. > :55:54.of Ukip, he is a plain northerner and he is,

:55:55. > :55:56.his message is clear on immigration: Why shouldn't those voters

:55:57. > :56:03.in the north-west turn to Ukip? I think what we have to do is ensure

:56:04. > :56:07.that there is no more undercutting of existing working conditions,

:56:08. > :56:10.no more people being brought in by agencies and forced

:56:11. > :56:12.to work for those agency. That sounds to your viewers

:56:13. > :56:16.like you are more worried about the rights of immigrants

:56:17. > :56:18.than you are about their concerns, but the impact of immigration

:56:19. > :56:21.on their community. It would have a very big effect,

:56:22. > :56:24.because it would mean that people that have got agreed working

:56:25. > :56:26.conditions in this country If we thought the beginning

:56:27. > :56:38.of the week that Corbyn was going to moderate his views

:56:39. > :56:40.on immigration, we were And then Tuesday's

:56:41. > :56:44.speech came about. Was it a U-turn

:56:45. > :56:46.from your perspective? I thought it was quite

:56:47. > :56:47.welcome, actually. Because it was the first time

:56:48. > :56:50.that the Labour leadership has come out and said we need to look

:56:51. > :56:55.at reform of the system of free movement, but our priority

:56:56. > :56:58.as we said from the very beginning is about as full access

:56:59. > :57:00.to the single market as possible. Do you think he communicated

:57:01. > :57:04.that very clearly? Because we're all left

:57:05. > :57:06.scratching our heads thinking, I think there were certainly some

:57:07. > :57:10.confusion over the way that But actually, this was the first

:57:11. > :57:14.time that I've heard somebody at that very senior level

:57:15. > :57:16.in the Labour Party say that we need some reforms

:57:17. > :57:19.to the system of free movement. That's a lot more detail than we've

:57:20. > :57:23.had from the Prime Minister so far, who is refusing to tell the British

:57:24. > :57:25.public anything at all about what she plans

:57:26. > :57:27.for post-Brexit Britain. Because for many young

:57:28. > :57:30.people in my constituency, they can see the benefits

:57:31. > :57:33.of being part of the single market, but actually the system that we've

:57:34. > :57:36.got of free movement has enabled us for far too long to bring in migrant

:57:37. > :57:39.labourer at the expense of young people in towns like mine,

:57:40. > :57:42.who need investment in their skills And we ought to change that,

:57:43. > :57:47.as Jeremy Corbyn... Protecting the rights of migrant

:57:48. > :57:49.workers rather than encouraging Our message from the Labour Party

:57:50. > :57:54.under Ed Miliband and now again under Jeremy Corbyn has always been

:57:55. > :57:59.that we will not allow the companies to drive down terms and conditions

:58:00. > :58:03.at the expense is of migrant workers and of people working

:58:04. > :58:06.here in this country. A little bit of clarity would be

:58:07. > :58:09.good, Graham, wouldn't it? From the government, so we know

:58:10. > :58:12.which direction wing heading in. Jeremy Corbyn, perhaps fairly,

:58:13. > :58:14.said to me, "I can't start talking about our policy until we know

:58:15. > :58:17.what the government's doing". We want to reduce the number

:58:18. > :58:22.of migrants coming here, but we need doctors,

:58:23. > :58:24.we need nurses, we need We have a shortage of those people,

:58:25. > :58:29.so it's vitally important for the continued growth

:58:30. > :58:31.of our country that we do have the ability to

:58:32. > :58:34.bring those people in. But we need to train

:58:35. > :58:36.up our own people. You think where having to a two

:58:37. > :58:39.tier system of visas? I think and skilled Labour

:58:40. > :58:49.coming in, as Lisa alluded to in her constituency and indeed

:58:50. > :58:53.in my constituency, we have young people who need to scale

:58:54. > :58:58.up to take those jobs. Having unskilled migrants

:58:59. > :59:00.coming in is a complete failure, but the government

:59:01. > :59:02.is working on that. It's easy for employers

:59:03. > :59:04.to bring in unskilled work. Some of the companies,

:59:05. > :59:06.not all companies, down It's about skilling up our own

:59:07. > :59:09.workforce, our own people. I'm sure all will become clear

:59:10. > :59:12.in the next few months. It's planes, trains and automobiles

:59:13. > :59:15.in this week's 60 Seconds. Anti-fracking protesters

:59:16. > :59:18.forced a four hour road Demonstrators were walking

:59:19. > :59:28.in front of lorries heading into the new Quadrilla site

:59:29. > :59:30.at Little Plumpton. 11 miles away in Preston,

:59:31. > :59:32.drivers have racked up fines of ?1 million in less

:59:33. > :59:34.than three months. They've been caught out by a new bus

:59:35. > :59:37.lane in Fisher gate. My daughter came up Chapel Street,

:59:38. > :59:40.and by the time she was here, From roads to rail, and an MP

:59:41. > :59:44.pointed the finger at Virgin for charging up to three times more

:59:45. > :59:47.for a trip from London to Preston than to Lancaster,

:59:48. > :59:53.despite the shorter journey. Virgin says more

:59:54. > :59:55.people use the line. Virgin need to have a look

:59:56. > :59:57.at the pricing structure. They also need to stop ripping

:59:58. > :59:59.people off, because this Passenger numbers at

:00:00. > :00:02.Liverpool John Lennon Airport are at their highest for five years,

:00:03. > :00:05.but the local singer Rebecca Ferguson won't be using it

:00:06. > :00:08.for a trip to Washington. She's decided not to sing

:00:09. > :00:12.at Donald Trump's inauguration because of a dispute

:00:13. > :00:20.over song choice. Thank you to my guests,

:00:21. > :00:24.Lisa Nandy the MP for Wigan. And Graham Evans, the Conservative

:00:25. > :00:27.MP for Weaver Vale. The Shadow Education

:00:28. > :00:30.Secretary Angela Rayner We'll be looking at the impact

:00:31. > :00:34.of changes to school funding. I'll hand you back

:00:35. > :00:36.to Andrew in London. Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump

:00:37. > :00:50.would tone things down after the American election

:00:51. > :01:01.campaign, they may have The period where he has been

:01:02. > :01:05.President-elect will make them think again. The inauguration is coming up

:01:06. > :01:06.on Friday. Never has the forthcoming

:01:07. > :01:08.inauguration of a president been In a moment, we'll talk

:01:09. > :01:12.to a man who knows Mr Trump But first, let's have a look

:01:13. > :01:16.at the press conference Mr Trump gave on Wednesday,

:01:17. > :01:18.in which he took the opportunity to rubbish reports that Russia has

:01:19. > :01:20.obtained compromising information You are attacking our

:01:21. > :01:36.news organisation. Can you give us a chance,

:01:37. > :01:41.you are attacking our news organisation, can you give us

:01:42. > :01:44.a chance to ask a question, sir? As far as Buzzfeed,

:01:45. > :01:50.which is a failing pile of garbage, writing it, I think they're

:01:51. > :01:54.going to suffer the consequences. Does anyone really

:01:55. > :01:57.believe that story? I'm also very much of

:01:58. > :02:00.a germaphobe, by the way. If Putin likes Donald Trump,

:02:01. > :02:02.guess what, folks, that's called The only ones that care about my tax

:02:03. > :02:10.returns are the reporters, OK? Do you not think the American

:02:11. > :02:24.public is concerned? The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first

:02:25. > :02:27.last conference. The Can will he change as President? Because he

:02:28. > :02:32.hasn't changed in the run-up to being inaugurated? I don't think he

:02:33. > :02:35.will commit he doesn't see any point in changing. Why would he change

:02:36. > :02:40.from the personality that just one, as he just said, I just one. All of

:02:41. > :02:42.the bleeding-heart liberals can wail and brush their teeth and say how

:02:43. > :02:47.ghastly that all this, Hillary should have won and so on, but he

:02:48. > :02:50.has got an incredible mandate. Remember, Trump has the House

:02:51. > :02:54.committee has the Senate, he will have the Supreme Court. He has

:02:55. > :02:58.incredible power right now. He doesn't have to listen to anybody. I

:02:59. > :03:02.spoke to him a couple of weeks ago specifically about Twitter, I asked

:03:03. > :03:07.him what the impact was of Twitter. He said, I have 60 million people

:03:08. > :03:11.following me on Twitter. I was able to bypass mainstream media, bypass

:03:12. > :03:15.all modern political convention and talk directly to potential voters.

:03:16. > :03:19.Secondly, I can turn on the TV in the morning, I can see a rival

:03:20. > :03:24.getting all of the airtime, and I can fire off a tweet, for free, as a

:03:25. > :03:28.marketing man he loves that, and, boom, I'm on the news agenda again.

:03:29. > :03:31.He was able to use that magnificently. Twitter to him didn't

:03:32. > :03:42.cost him a dollar. He is going to carry on tweeting in the last six

:03:43. > :03:47.weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump has never had an alcoholic drink a

:03:48. > :03:51.cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by the 70, he has incredible energy and

:03:52. > :03:55.he is incredibly competitive. At his heart, he is a businessman. If you

:03:56. > :04:00.look at him as a political ideologue, you completely missed the

:04:01. > :04:03.point of trouble. Don't take what he says literally, look upon it as a

:04:04. > :04:07.negotiating point that he started from, and try to do business with

:04:08. > :04:11.him as a business person would, and you may be presently surprised so

:04:12. > :04:16.pleasantly surprised. He treats the press and the media entirely

:04:17. > :04:23.differently to any other politician or main politician in that normally

:04:24. > :04:27.the politicians try to get the media off a particular subject, or they

:04:28. > :04:30.try to conciliate with the media. He just comes and punches the media in

:04:31. > :04:37.the nose when he doesn't like them. This could catch on, you know! You

:04:38. > :04:43.are absolutely right, for a start, nobody could accuse him of letting

:04:44. > :04:46.that victory go to his head. You know, he won't say, I will now be

:04:47. > :04:50.this lofty president. He's exactly the same as he was before. What is

:04:51. > :04:54.fascinating is his Laois and ship with the media. I haven't met, and

:04:55. > :04:57.I'm sure you haven't, met a party leader who is obsessed with the

:04:58. > :05:04.media. But they pretend not to be. You know, they state, oh, somebody

:05:05. > :05:11.told me about a column, I didn't read it. He is utterly transparent

:05:12. > :05:15.in his obsession with the media, he doesn't pretend. How that plays out,

:05:16. > :05:19.who knows? It's a completely different dynamic than anyone has

:05:20. > :05:24.seen by. Like he is the issue, he has appointed an unusual Cabinet,

:05:25. > :05:27.that you could criticise in many ways. Nearly all of them are

:05:28. > :05:31.independent people in their own right. A lot of them are wealthy,

:05:32. > :05:35.too. They have their own views. They might not like what he tweaked at

:05:36. > :05:40.3am, and he does have to deal with his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters,

:05:41. > :05:46.now the Defence Secretary, he might not like what's said about China at

:05:47. > :05:50.three in morning - general matters. This is what gets very conjugated.

:05:51. > :05:53.We cannot imagine here in our political system any kind of

:05:54. > :05:55.appointments like this. Using the wouldn't have a line-up of

:05:56. > :05:59.billionaires of the kind of background that he has chosen -- you

:06:00. > :06:04.simply wouldn't have. But that won't stop him saying and reading what he

:06:05. > :06:06.thinks. Maybe it will cause him some internal issues when the following

:06:07. > :06:11.day he has the square rigged with whatever they think. But he's going

:06:12. > :06:19.to press ahead. Are we any clearer in terms of policy. I know policy

:06:20. > :06:22.hasn't featured hugely in this campaign of 2016. Do we have any

:06:23. > :06:29.really clear idea what Mr Trump is hoping to achieve? He has had some

:06:30. > :06:32.consistent theme going back over 25 years. One is a deep scepticism

:06:33. > :06:36.about international trade and the kind of deals that America has been

:06:37. > :06:39.doing over that period. It has been so consistent that is has been hard

:06:40. > :06:43.to spin as something that you say during the course of a campaign of

:06:44. > :06:47.something to get elected. Ultimately, Piers is correct, he

:06:48. > :06:50.won't change. When he won the election committee gave a relatively

:06:51. > :06:55.magnanimous beach. I thought his ego had been sated and he had got what

:06:56. > :06:58.he wanted. He will end up governing as is likely eccentric New York

:06:59. > :07:02.liberal and everything will be fine. In the recent weeks it has come to

:07:03. > :07:05.my attention that that might not be entirely true!

:07:06. > :07:09.LAUGHTER It is a real test of the American

:07:10. > :07:14.system, the Texan bouncers, the foreign policy establishment which

:07:15. > :07:18.is about to have the orthodoxies disrupted -- the checks and

:07:19. > :07:22.balances. I think he has completely ripped up the American political

:07:23. > :07:25.system. Washington as we know it is dead. From his garage do things his

:07:26. > :07:31.way, he doesn't care, frankly, what any of us thinks -- Trump is going

:07:32. > :07:37.to do things his way. If he can deliver for the people who voted for

:07:38. > :07:43.him who fault this disenfranchised, -- who voted for him who felt this

:07:44. > :07:47.disenfranchised. They voted accordingly. They want to see jobs

:07:48. > :07:51.and the economy in good shape, they want to feel secure. They want to

:07:52. > :07:56.feel that immigration has been tightened. If Trump can deliver on

:07:57. > :08:00.those main theme for the rust belt communities of America, I'm telling

:08:01. > :08:03.you, he will go down as a very successful president. All of the

:08:04. > :08:06.offensive rhetoric and the argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it

:08:07. > :08:14.may be will be completely irrelevant. Let me finish with a

:08:15. > :08:16.parochial question. Is it fair to say quite well disposed to this

:08:17. > :08:18.country? And that he would like, that he's up for a speedy

:08:19. > :08:25.free-trade, bilateral free-trade you'll? Think we have to be sensible

:08:26. > :08:29.as the country. Come Friday, he is the president of the United States,

:08:30. > :08:33.the most powerful man and well. He said to me that he feels half

:08:34. > :08:36.British, his mum was born and raised in Scotland until the age of 18, he

:08:37. > :08:40.loves British, his mother used to love watching the Queen, he feels

:08:41. > :08:45.very, you know, I would roll out the red carpet for Trump, let him eat

:08:46. > :08:50.Her Majesty. The crucial point for us as a country is coming -- let him

:08:51. > :08:55.me to Her Majesty. If we can do a speedy deal within an 18 month

:08:56. > :08:59.period, it really sends a message that well but we are back in the

:09:00. > :09:03.game, that is a hugely beneficial thing for this country. Well, a man

:09:04. > :09:09.whose advisers were indicating that maybe he should learn a few things

:09:10. > :09:13.from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn. Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the

:09:14. > :09:16.Andrew Marr Show this morning. -- yes, indeed.

:09:17. > :09:19.If you don't win Copeland, and if you don't win

:09:20. > :09:20.Stoke-on-Trent Central, you're toast, aren't you?

:09:21. > :09:25.Our party is going to fight very hard in those elections,

:09:26. > :09:28.as we are in the local elections, to put those policies out there.

:09:29. > :09:30.It's an opportunity to challenge the Government on the NHS.

:09:31. > :09:33.It's an opportunity to challenge them on the chaos of Brexit.

:09:34. > :09:35.It's an opportunity to challenge them on the housing shortage.

:09:36. > :09:37.It's an opportunity to challenge them on zero-hours contracts.

:09:38. > :09:42.Is there ever a moment that you look in the mirror and think,

:09:43. > :09:46.you know what, I've done my best, but this might not be for me?

:09:47. > :09:48.I look in the mirror every day and I think,

:09:49. > :09:51.let's go out there and try and create a society where there

:09:52. > :09:53.are opportunities for all, where there aren't these terrible

:09:54. > :09:55.levels of poverty, where there isn't homelessness,

:09:56. > :09:57.where there are houses for all, and where young people aren't

:09:58. > :10:00.frightened of going to university because of the debts

:10:01. > :10:03.they are going to end up with at the end of their course.

:10:04. > :10:09.Mr Corbyn earlier this morning. Steve, would it be fair to say that

:10:10. > :10:13.the mainstream of the Labour Party has now come to the conclusion that

:10:14. > :10:16.they just have to let Mr Corbyn get on with it, that they are not going

:10:17. > :10:21.to try and influence what he does. They will continue to try and have

:10:22. > :10:25.their own views, but it's his show, it's up to him, if it's a mess, he

:10:26. > :10:29.has to live with it and we'll have clean hands? For now, yes. I think

:10:30. > :10:32.they made a mistake when he was first elected to start in some cases

:10:33. > :10:37.tweeting within seconds that it was going to be a disaster, this was

:10:38. > :10:40.Labour MPs. They made a complete mess of that attempted coup in the

:10:41. > :10:46.summer, which strengthened his position. And he did, it gave Corbyn

:10:47. > :10:50.the space with total legitimacy to say that part of the problem is,

:10:51. > :10:56.we're having this public Civil War. In keeping quiet, that disappeared

:10:57. > :11:01.as part of the explanation for why Labour and low in the polls. I think

:11:02. > :11:06.they are partly doing that. But they are also struggling, the so-called

:11:07. > :11:09.mainstream Labour MPs, to decide what the distinctive agenda is. It's

:11:10. > :11:14.one of the many differences with the 80s, where you had a group of people

:11:15. > :11:18.sure of what they believed in, they left to form the SDP. What's

:11:19. > :11:22.happening now is that they are leaving politics altogether. That is

:11:23. > :11:26.a crisis of social Democrats all across Europe, including the French

:11:27. > :11:33.Socialists, as we will find out later in the spring. Let Corbyn

:11:34. > :11:35.because then, that's the strategy. There is a weary and sometimes

:11:36. > :11:38.literal resignation from the moderates in the Labour Party. If

:11:39. > :11:41.you talk to them, they are no longer angry, they have always run out of

:11:42. > :11:44.steam to be angry about what's going on. They are just sort of tired and

:11:45. > :11:48.feel that they've just got to see this through now. I think the

:11:49. > :11:52.by-elections will be interesting. When Andrew Marr said, you're toast,

:11:53. > :11:57.and you? I thought, he's never posed! That was right. A quick

:11:58. > :12:02.thought from view? One thing Corbyn has in common with Trump is immunity

:12:03. > :12:10.to bad news. I think he can lose Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long

:12:11. > :12:12.as it is not a sequence of resignations and by-elections

:12:13. > :12:15.afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20 Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy

:12:16. > :12:21.what. It may be more trouble if Labour loses the United trade union

:12:22. > :12:23.elections. We are in a period of incredible unpredictability

:12:24. > :12:28.generally in global politics. If you look at the way the next year plays

:12:29. > :12:31.out, if for example brags it was a disaster and it starts to unravel

:12:32. > :12:34.very quickly, Theresa May is attached to that, clearly label

:12:35. > :12:38.would have a great opportunity potentially disease that higher

:12:39. > :12:44.ground, and when Eddie the Tories -- Labour would have an opportunity. Is

:12:45. > :12:49.Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed him, what struck me was that he

:12:50. > :12:52.talked about being from, a laughable comparison, but when it is really

:12:53. > :12:57.laughable is this - Hillary Clinton, what were the things she stood for,

:12:58. > :13:01.nobody really knew? What does Trump stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn

:13:02. > :13:05.has the work-out four or five messages and bang, bang, bang. He

:13:06. > :13:07.could still be in business. Thank you for being with us.

:13:08. > :13:10.I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

:13:11. > :13:12.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.