05/02/2017

:00:32. > :00:36.It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:37. > :00:40.Theresa May pledged to help people who are "just about managing",

:00:41. > :00:42.and this week her government will announce new measures to boost

:00:43. > :00:45.the number of affordable homes and improve conditions for renters.

:00:46. > :00:56.After a US court suspends Donald Trump's travel ban and rules

:00:57. > :01:00.it could be unconstitutional, one of the President's inner circle

:01:01. > :01:03.tells me there is no "chaos", and that Donald Trump's White House

:01:04. > :01:06.is making good on his campaign promises.

:01:07. > :01:08.As the Government gets into gear for two years

:01:09. > :01:12.of Brexit negotiations, we report on the haggling to come

:01:13. > :01:14.over the UK's Brexit bill for leaving the European Union -

:01:15. > :01:22.and the costs and savings once we've left.

:01:23. > :01:25.And in the North West, can we get a Brexit deal

:01:26. > :01:36.The Metro Mayor candidates on where they see our the place in the world.

:01:37. > :01:40.And with me, as always, a trio of top political

:01:41. > :01:41.journalists - Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn

:01:42. > :01:45.They'll be tweeting throughout the programme,

:01:46. > :01:52.So, more anguish to come this week for the Labour party as the House

:01:53. > :01:55.of Commons continues to debate the bill which paves the way

:01:56. > :02:00.Last week, Labour split over the Article 50 bill,

:02:01. > :02:03.with a fifth of Labour MPs defying Jeremy Corbyn to vote against.

:02:04. > :02:09.Five shadow ministers resigned, and it's expected Mr Corbyn

:02:10. > :02:11.will have to sack more frontbenchers once the bill is voted

:02:12. > :02:16.Add to that the fact that the Labour Leader's close ally

:02:17. > :02:19.Diane Abbot failed to turn up for the initial vote -

:02:20. > :02:21.blaming illness - and things don't look too rosy

:02:22. > :02:23.The Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry was asked

:02:24. > :02:27.about the situation earlier on the Andrew Marr show.

:02:28. > :02:32.The Labour Party is a national party and we represent the nation,

:02:33. > :02:36.and the nation is divided on this, and it is very difficult.

:02:37. > :02:41.Many MPs representing majority Remain constituencies have this very

:02:42. > :02:43.difficult balancing act between - do I represent my constituency,

:02:44. > :02:47.Labour, as a national party, have a clear view.

:02:48. > :02:55.We fought to stay in Europe, but the public have spoken,

:02:56. > :03:00.But the important thing now is not to give Theresa May a blank check,

:03:01. > :03:06.we have to make sure we get the right deal for the country.

:03:07. > :03:14.That was Emily Thornberry. Helen, is this like a form of Chinese water

:03:15. > :03:18.torture for the Labour Party? And for journalists, to! We are in a

:03:19. > :03:21.situation where no one really thinks it's working. A lot of authority has

:03:22. > :03:26.drained away from Jeremy Corbyn but no one can do anything about it.

:03:27. > :03:30.What we saw from the leadership contest is on the idea of a Blairite

:03:31. > :03:34.plot to get rid of him. You are essentially stuck in stasis. The

:03:35. > :03:40.only person that can remove Jeremy Corbyn is God or Jeremy Corbyn.

:03:41. > :03:44.Authority may have moved from Mr Corbyn but it's not going anywhere

:03:45. > :03:50.else, there's not an alternative centre of authority? Not quite, but

:03:51. > :03:55.Clive Lewis is name emerging, the Shadow Business Secretary. A lot of

:03:56. > :03:58.the Labour left, people like Paul Mason, really like him and would

:03:59. > :04:03.like to see him in Corbyn. I think that's why Jeremy Corbyn do

:04:04. > :04:08.something extraordinary next week and abstain from Article 50, the

:04:09. > :04:14.main bill itself, to keep his Shadow Cabinet together. That clip on

:04:15. > :04:19.Andrew Marr, point blank refusing to say if Labour will vote for Article

:04:20. > :04:24.50. The only way Jeremy Corbyn can hold this mess together now is to

:04:25. > :04:28.abstain, which would be catastrophic across Brexit constituencies in the

:04:29. > :04:35.North. The problem with abstention is everyone will say on the issue of

:04:36. > :04:39.our time, the official opposition hasn't got coherent or considered

:04:40. > :04:43.policy? I love the way Emily Thornberry said the country is

:04:44. > :04:46.divided and we represent the country, in other words we are

:04:47. > :04:49.divided at the party as well. The other thing that was a crucial

:04:50. > :04:53.moment this week is the debate over whether there should be a so-called

:04:54. > :04:58.meaningful vote by MPs on the deal that Theresa May gets. That is a

:04:59. > :05:04.point of real danger for Brexit supporters. It may well be there is

:05:05. > :05:08.a coalition of Labour and SNP and Remain MPs, Tory MPs, who vote for

:05:09. > :05:12.that so-called meaningful vote that could undermine Theresa May's

:05:13. > :05:17.negotiation. So Theresa May could have had troubles as well, not plain

:05:18. > :05:22.sailing for her? There is no point, apart from lonely Ken Clarke voting

:05:23. > :05:25.against Article 50, no point in Tory remainders rebelling. It would have

:05:26. > :05:30.been a token gesture with no support. But there might be

:05:31. > :05:34.meaningful amendments. One might be on the status of EU nationals... The

:05:35. > :05:42.government could lose that. There might be a majority for some of

:05:43. > :05:45.those amendments. The ins and outs of the Labour Party, it fascinates

:05:46. > :05:47.the Labour Party and journalists. I suspect the country has just moved

:05:48. > :05:52.on and doesn't care. You are probably quite right. To be honest I

:05:53. > :05:57.struggled to get Labour split stories in my paper any more, the

:05:58. > :06:02.bar is so high to make it news. Where it does matter is now not

:06:03. > :06:07.everyone will pay huge amounts to the -- of attention to the vote on

:06:08. > :06:12.Wednesday. But come the general election in 2020, maybe a little

:06:13. > :06:16.earlier, every Tory leaflet and every labour constituency will say

:06:17. > :06:19.this guy, this goal, they refuse to vote for Brexit, do you want them in

:06:20. > :06:24.power? That is going to be really hard for them. The story next week

:06:25. > :06:29.may be Tory splits rather than just Labour ones, we will see.

:06:30. > :06:32.Theresa May has made a big deal out of her commitment to help people

:06:33. > :06:35.on middle incomes who are "just about managing", and early this week

:06:36. > :06:38.we should get a good sense of what that means in practice -

:06:39. > :06:41.when plans to bring down the cost of housing and protect renters

:06:42. > :06:42.are published in the Government's new white paper.

:06:43. > :06:45.Theresa May has promised she'll kick off Brexit negotiations with the EU

:06:46. > :06:48.by the end of March, and after months of shadow-boxing

:06:49. > :06:52.Ellie Price reports on the battle to come over the UK's Brexit bill,

:06:53. > :06:54.and the likely costs and savings once we've left.

:06:55. > :06:56.It was the figure that defined the EU referendum campaign.

:06:57. > :07:02.It was also a figure that was fiercely disputed, but the promise -

:07:03. > :07:06.vote leave and Britain won't have to pay into the EU are any more.

:07:07. > :07:08.So, is that what's going to happen now?

:07:09. > :07:11.The trouble with buses is you tend to have to wait for them

:07:12. > :07:13.and when Theresa May triggers Article 50, the clock starts

:07:14. > :07:18.She needs something quicker, something more sporty.

:07:19. > :07:24.According to the most recent Treasury figures,

:07:25. > :07:26.Britain's gross contribution to the EU, after the rebate

:07:27. > :07:29.is taken into account, is about ?14 billion a year.

:07:30. > :07:34.There are some complicating factors that means it can go up

:07:35. > :07:37.or down year on year, but that's roughly how much the UK

:07:38. > :07:39.will no longer sending to Brussels post-Brexit.

:07:40. > :07:42.But, there are other payments that Britain will have to shell out for.

:07:43. > :07:46.First and foremost, the so-called divorce settlement.

:07:47. > :07:51.It is being said, and openly by Commissioner Barnier

:07:52. > :07:56.and others in the Commission, that the total financial liability

:07:57. > :07:58.as they see it might be in the order of 40-60 billion

:07:59. > :08:04.The BBC understands the figure EU negotiators are likely

:08:05. > :08:09.to settle on is far lower, around 34 billion euros,

:08:10. > :08:11.but what does the money they are going to argue

:08:12. > :08:17.Well, that's how much Britain owes for stuff in the EU budget that's

:08:18. > :08:20.already signed up for until 2020, one year after we are

:08:21. > :08:25.Historically, Britain pays 12% in contributions,

:08:26. > :08:28.so the cost to the UK is likely to be between ten

:08:29. > :08:36.Then they will look at the 200-250 billion euros of underfunded

:08:37. > :08:37.spending commitments, the so-called RAL.

:08:38. > :08:45.Britain could also be liable for around 5-7 billion euros

:08:46. > :08:50.for its share in the pensions bill for EU staff, that's again

:08:51. > :08:52.12% of an overall bill of 50-60 billion.

:08:53. > :08:54.Finally there's a share of our assets held by the EU.

:08:55. > :08:59.They include things like this building, the European Commission

:09:00. > :09:07.Britain could argue it deserves a share back of around 18 billion

:09:08. > :09:10.euros from a portfolio that's said to be worth 153 billion euros.

:09:11. > :09:13.So, lots for the two sides to discuss in two years of talks.

:09:14. > :09:15.They have a great opportunity with the Article 50 talks

:09:16. > :09:20.because actually they can hold us to ransom.

:09:21. > :09:23.They can say, "You figure out money, we will talk about your trade.

:09:24. > :09:26.But until you've figured out the money, we won't," so I think

:09:27. > :09:29.a lot of European states think they are in a very strong

:09:30. > :09:31.negotiating position at the moment and they intend to make

:09:32. > :09:37.The principle is clear, the days of Britain making vast

:09:38. > :09:42.contributions to the European Union every year will end.

:09:43. > :09:46.Theresa May has already indicated that she would want to sign back up

:09:47. > :09:52.to a number of EU agencies on a program-by-program basis.

:09:53. > :09:54.The Europol for example, that's the European crime

:09:55. > :09:59.agency, or Erasmus Plus, which wants student exchanges.

:10:00. > :10:02.If everything stays the same as it is now, it would cost the UK

:10:03. > :10:05.675 million euros a year, based on analysis by

:10:06. > :10:13.But there are likely to be agencies we don't choose to participate in.

:10:14. > :10:23.If we only opted back to those dealing with security,

:10:24. > :10:24.trade, universities and, say, climate change,

:10:25. > :10:27.it could come with a price tag of 370 million euros per year.

:10:28. > :10:30.Of course that's if our European neighbours allow us.

:10:31. > :10:32.I wonder if they're going to let me in!

:10:33. > :10:35.There will also be a cost to creating a new system to resolve

:10:36. > :10:38.trade disputes with other nations once we are no longer part

:10:39. > :10:43.Take the EFTA Court which rules on disputes

:10:44. > :10:45.between the EU and Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein.

:10:46. > :10:50.That costs 4 million euros to run each year,

:10:51. > :10:53.though in the Brexit White Paper published this week,

:10:54. > :10:55.the Government said it will not be constrained by precedent

:10:56. > :11:00.Finally, would the EU get behind the idea of Britain making some

:11:01. > :11:07.contribution for some preferential access to its market?

:11:08. > :11:09.The sort of thing that Theresa May seems to be hinting

:11:10. > :11:11.at are sectoral arrangements, some kind of partial membership

:11:12. > :11:19.Switzerland, which has a far less wide-ranging deal than Norway,

:11:20. > :11:23.pays about 320 million a year for what it gets into the EU budget,

:11:24. > :11:25.but it's not exactly the Swiss deal that we're after.

:11:26. > :11:28.The EU institutions hate the Swiss deal because it is codified

:11:29. > :11:30.in a huge number of treaties that are messy, complicated

:11:31. > :11:32.and cumbersome, and they really don't want to replicate

:11:33. > :11:39.Theresa May has been at pains to insist she's in the driving seat

:11:40. > :11:41.when it comes to these negotiations, and that she's

:11:42. > :11:51.But with so much money up for discussion, it may not be such

:11:52. > :12:08.Sadly she didn't get to keep the car!

:12:09. > :12:10.And I've been joined to discuss the Brexit balance sheet

:12:11. > :12:13.by the director of the Centre for European Reform, Charles Grant,

:12:14. > :12:16.and by Henry Newman who runs the think tank Open Europe.

:12:17. > :12:23.Henry Newman, these figures that are being thrown about in Brussels at

:12:24. > :12:28.the moment, and exit bill of 40-60,000,000,000. What do you make

:12:29. > :12:30.of them? I think it is an opening gambit from the institutions and we

:12:31. > :12:37.should take them seriously. We listened to Mr Rogers, the former

:12:38. > :12:40.ambassador to Brussels in the House of Commons last week, speaking about

:12:41. > :12:45.the sort of positions the EU is likely to take in the negotiation. I

:12:46. > :12:49.personally think the Prime Minister should be more concerned about

:12:50. > :12:51.getting the right sort of trade arrangements, subsequent to our

:12:52. > :12:56.departure, than worrying about the exact detail of the divorce

:12:57. > :13:00.settlement and the Bill. They might not let them go on to trade until

:13:01. > :13:05.they resolve this matter. Where does the Brexit bill, the cost of exit,

:13:06. > :13:11.if there is to be one, in terms of a sum of money, where does that come

:13:12. > :13:14.in the negotiations, upfront or at the end? The European Commission has

:13:15. > :13:19.a firm line on this. You have to talk about the Brexit bill and the

:13:20. > :13:21.divorce settlement before you talk about the future relationship.

:13:22. > :13:26.Therefore they are saying if you don't sign up for 60 billion or

:13:27. > :13:29.thereabouts, we won't talk about the future. Other member states take a

:13:30. > :13:32.softer line than that and think you probably have to talk about the

:13:33. > :13:38.divorce settlement and Brexit bill as the same -- at the same time as

:13:39. > :13:42.the economic situation. If you can do both at the same time, the

:13:43. > :13:47.atmosphere may be better natured. You have spoken to people in

:13:48. > :13:54.Brussels and are part of a think tank, how Revista gives the figure

:13:55. > :13:58.or is it an opening gambit? Most member states and EU institutions

:13:59. > :14:00.believe they think it is the true figure but when the negotiations

:14:01. > :14:03.start adding the number will come down. As long as the British are

:14:04. > :14:10.prepared to sign up to the principle of we owe you a bit of money, as the

:14:11. > :14:14.cheque, then people will compromise. What is the ballpark? You had a

:14:15. > :14:18.figure of 34 billion, that is news to me, nobody knows because

:14:19. > :14:24.negotiations haven't started but I think something lower than 60. Even

:14:25. > :14:29.60 would be politically toxic for a British government? I think Theresa

:14:30. > :14:32.May is in a strong position, she has united the Conservative Party. You

:14:33. > :14:37.could expect coming into this year all the Conservative divisions would

:14:38. > :14:44.be laid bare by Gina Miller. But she is leading a united party. Labour

:14:45. > :14:49.Party are divided... Coogee get away with paying 30 billion? We should

:14:50. > :14:52.give her the benefit of the doubt going into these negotiations, let

:14:53. > :14:56.her keep her cards close to her chest. The speech he gave a few

:14:57. > :14:59.weeks ago at Lancaster House, our judgment was she laid out as much

:15:00. > :15:04.detail as we could have expected at that point. I don't think it's

:15:05. > :15:08.helpful for us now to say, we shouldn't be introducing further red

:15:09. > :15:13.line. I want you to be helpful and find things out. I would suggest if

:15:14. > :15:17.there is a bill, let's say it's 30 billion, let's make it half of what

:15:18. > :15:21.the current claims coming out of Brussels. And of course it won't

:15:22. > :15:25.have to be paid in one year, I assume it's not one cheque but

:15:26. > :15:29.spread over. But we will wait a long time for that 350 million a week or

:15:30. > :15:34.what ever it was that was meant to come from Brussels to spend on the

:15:35. > :15:40.NHS. That's not going to happen for the next five, six or seven years.

:15:41. > :15:46.Everyone has been clear there will be a phased exit programme. The

:15:47. > :15:49.question of whether something is political possible for her in terms

:15:50. > :15:52.of the divorce settlement will depend on what she gets from the

:15:53. > :15:58.European Union in those negotiations. If she ends up

:15:59. > :16:02.settling for a bill of about 30 billion which I think would be

:16:03. > :16:07.politically... No matter how popular she is, politically very difficult

:16:08. > :16:12.for her, it does kill any idea there is a Brexit dividend for Britain.

:16:13. > :16:16.Some of the senior officials in London and Brussels are worried this

:16:17. > :16:20.issue could crash the talks because it may be possible for Theresa May

:16:21. > :16:25.to accept a Brexit bill of 30 billion and if there is no deal and

:16:26. > :16:32.will leave EU without a settlement, there is massive legal uncertainty.

:16:33. > :16:35.What contract law applies? Can our planes take off from Heathrow?

:16:36. > :16:41.Nobody knows what legal rights there are for an EU citizen living here

:16:42. > :16:47.and vice versa. If there is no deal at the end of two years, it is quite

:16:48. > :16:52.bad for the European economy, therefore they think they have all

:16:53. > :16:55.the cards to play and they think if it is mishandled domestically in

:16:56. > :17:01.Britain than we have a crash. But there will be competing interests in

:17:02. > :17:04.Europe, the Baltic states, Eastern Europe, maybe quite similar of the

:17:05. > :17:10.Nordic states, that in turn different from the French, Germans

:17:11. > :17:15.or Italians. How will Europe come to a common view on these things? At

:17:16. > :17:23.the moment they are quite united backing a strong line, except for

:17:24. > :17:29.the polls and Hungarians who are the bad boys of Europe and the Irish who

:17:30. > :17:33.will do anything to keep us happy. We should remember their priority is

:17:34. > :17:38.not economics, they are not thinking how can they maximise trade with the

:17:39. > :17:41.UK, they are under threat. The combination of Trump and Brexit

:17:42. > :17:48.scares them. They want to keep the institutions strong. They also want

:17:49. > :17:54.to keep Britain. That is the one strong card we have, contributing to

:17:55. > :17:58.security. We know we won't be members of the single market, that

:17:59. > :18:03.was in the White Paper. The situation of the customs union is

:18:04. > :18:09.more complicated I would suggest. Does that have cost? If we can be a

:18:10. > :18:15.little bit pregnant in the customs union, does that come with a price

:18:16. > :18:19.ticket? We have got some clarity on the customs union, the Prime

:18:20. > :18:24.Minister said we would not be part of the... We would be able to do our

:18:25. > :18:28.own trade deals outside the EU customs union, and also not be part

:18:29. > :18:32.of the common external tariff. She said she is willing to look at other

:18:33. > :18:36.options and we don't know what that will be so as a think tank we are

:18:37. > :18:38.looking at this over the next few weeks and coming up with

:18:39. > :18:42.recommendations for the Government and looking at how existing

:18:43. > :18:47.boundaries between the EU customs union and other states work in

:18:48. > :18:51.practice. For example between Switzerland and the EU border,

:18:52. > :18:56.Norway and Switzerland, and the UK and Canada. We will want is a

:18:57. > :19:03.country the freedom to do our own free trade deals, that seems to be

:19:04. > :19:08.quite high up there, and to change our external tariffs to the rest of

:19:09. > :19:13.the world. If that's the case, we do seem to be wanting our cake and

:19:14. > :19:17.eating it in the customs union. Talking to some people in London, it

:19:18. > :19:22.is quite clear we are leaving the essentials of the customs union, the

:19:23. > :19:27.tariff, so even if we can minimise controls at the border by having

:19:28. > :19:30.mutual recognition agreements, so we recognise each other's standards,

:19:31. > :19:35.but there will still have to be checks for things like rules of

:19:36. > :19:39.origin and tariffs if tariffs apply, which is a problem for the Irish

:19:40. > :19:42.because nobody has worked out how you can avoid having some sort of

:19:43. > :19:46.customs control on the border between Northern Ireland and the

:19:47. > :19:50.South once we are out of the customs union. I think it's important we

:19:51. > :19:56.don't look at this too much as one side has to win and one side has to

:19:57. > :20:00.lose scenario. We can find ways. My Broadview is what we get out of the

:20:01. > :20:02.negotiation will depend on politics more than economic reality. Economic

:20:03. > :20:20.reality is strong, there's a good case for a trade deal on the

:20:21. > :20:22.solution on the customs deal, but Britain will need to come up with a

:20:23. > :20:25.positive case for our relationship and keep making that case. If it

:20:26. > :20:28.turns out the Government thinks the bill is too high, that we can't

:20:29. > :20:31.really get the free trade deal done in time and it's left hanging in the

:20:32. > :20:34.wind, what are the chances, how I as things stand now that we end up

:20:35. > :20:38.crashing out? I'd say there's a 30% chance that we don't get the free

:20:39. > :20:44.trade agreement at the end of it that Mrs May is aiming for. The very

:20:45. > :20:48.hard crash is you don't even do an Article 50 divorce settlement from

:20:49. > :20:53.you go straight to World Trade Organisation rules. The less hard

:20:54. > :20:56.crash is doing the divorce settlement and transitional

:20:57. > :21:02.arrangements would require European Court of Justice arrangements. We

:21:03. > :21:03.will leave it there. Thank you, both.

:21:04. > :21:05.Donald Trump's flagship policy of extreme vetting of immigrants

:21:06. > :21:08.and a temporary travel ban for citizens of seven mainly-muslim

:21:09. > :21:10.countries was stopped in its tracks this weekend.

:21:11. > :21:13.On Friday a judge ruled the ban should be lifted and that it

:21:14. > :21:18.That prompted President Trump to fire off a series of tweets

:21:19. > :21:20.criticising what he says was a terrible decision

:21:21. > :21:23.by a so-called judge, as he ordered the State Department

:21:24. > :21:30.Now the federal appeals court has rejected his request to reinstate

:21:31. > :21:42.the ban until it hears the case in full.

:21:43. > :21:46.Well yesterday I spoke to Sebastian Gorka, Deputy Assistant

:21:47. > :21:50.I asked him if the confusion over the travel ban

:21:51. > :21:52.was a sign that the President's two-week-old administration

:21:53. > :22:05.There is no chaos, you really shouldn't believe the spin, the

:22:06. > :22:10.facts speak for themselves. 109 people on Saturday were mildly

:22:11. > :22:17.inconvenienced by having their entry into the United States delayed out

:22:18. > :22:26.of 325,000. So let's not get carried away with the left-wing media bias

:22:27. > :22:30.and spin. Hold on, 60,000 - 90,000 people with visas, their visas are

:22:31. > :22:34.no longer valid. That's another issue. You need to listen to what

:22:35. > :22:40.I'm saying. The people who entered on the day of the executive order

:22:41. > :22:47.being implemented worth 109 people out of 325. Whether people won't

:22:48. > :22:56.travelling to America were affected is another matter, so there is no

:22:57. > :23:00.chaos to comment on. Following Iran's latest missile tests,

:23:01. > :23:06.National Security adviser Flint said the US was "Putting Iran on notice",

:23:07. > :23:09.what does that mean? It means we have a new president and we are not

:23:10. > :23:16.going to facilitate the rise of one of the most dangerous nations in the

:23:17. > :23:24.world. We are jettisoning this naive and dangerous policy of the Obama

:23:25. > :23:27.Administration to try and make the Shi'ite dictatorial democracy some

:23:28. > :23:31.kind of counter balance to extremist Sunni groups in the region and that

:23:32. > :23:36.they cannot continue to behave in the way they have behaved for the

:23:37. > :23:42.last 30 years. It is a very simple message. So are there any

:23:43. > :23:48.multilateral alliances that Mr Trump would like to strengthen?

:23:49. > :23:51.Absolutely. If we are looking at the region, if you listen to what

:23:52. > :23:56.President Trump has said and specifically to also the speeches of

:23:57. > :24:01.general Flint, his national security adviser, we are incredibly vested in

:24:02. > :24:08.seeing our Sunni allies in the region come together in a real

:24:09. > :24:14.coalition. The so-called vaunted 66 nation coalition that was created

:24:15. > :24:18.under the Obama administration... There was no coalition. But we want

:24:19. > :24:26.to help our Sunni allies, especially the Egyptians, the Jordanians, come

:24:27. > :24:32.together in a real partnership to take the fight to ISIS and groups

:24:33. > :24:37.like Al-Qaeda. But there is not a formal multilateral alliance with

:24:38. > :24:42.these countries. Which of the existing, formal multilateral

:24:43. > :24:46.alliances does Mr Trump wants to strengthen? If you are specifically

:24:47. > :24:51.talking about Nato, it is clear that we are committed to Nato but we wish

:24:52. > :24:54.to see a more equitable burden sharing among the nations that are

:24:55. > :24:58.simply not spending enough on their own defence so the gentleman 's

:24:59. > :25:03.agreement of 2% of GDP has to be stuck to, unlike the, I think it's

:25:04. > :25:07.only Six Nations that reach the standard today out of almost 30. So

:25:08. > :25:18.he does want to strengthen Nato then? Absolutely, he believes Nato

:25:19. > :25:24.is the most successful military alliances. You mustn't believe the

:25:25. > :25:29.spin and hype. EU leaders now see the Trump administration as a threat

:25:30. > :25:35.up there with Russia, China, terrorism. What's your response to

:25:36. > :25:41.that? I have to laugh. The idea that the nation that came to the

:25:42. > :25:48.salvation of Europe twice in the 20th century hummer in World War I

:25:49. > :25:59.and World War II, was central to the defeat of the totalitarian... It is

:26:00. > :26:03.not even worth commenting on. Would it matter to the Trump

:26:04. > :26:06.administration if the European Union broke up? The United States is very

:26:07. > :26:14.interested in the best relations possible with all the nations of the

:26:15. > :26:19.EU am a whether the European union wishes to stay together or not is up

:26:20. > :26:25.to the nations of the European Union. I understand that but I was

:26:26. > :26:29.wondering what the US view would be. Until Mr Trump, EU foreign policy

:26:30. > :26:34.was quite consistent in wanting to see the EU survive, prosper and even

:26:35. > :26:38.become more integrated. Now that doesn't seem to be the case, so

:26:39. > :26:43.would it matter to the Trump administration if the EU broke up? I

:26:44. > :26:46.will say yet again, it is in the interests of the United States to

:26:47. > :26:50.have the best relations possible with our European allies, and

:26:51. > :26:54.whether that is in the formation of the EU or if the EU by itself

:26:55. > :26:59.suffers some kind of internal issues, that's up to the European

:27:00. > :27:04.nations and not something we will comment on. Listening to that

:27:05. > :27:08.answer, it would seem as if this particular president's preference is

:27:09. > :27:14.to deal with individual nation states rather than multilateral

:27:15. > :27:21.institutions. Is that fair? I don't think so. There's never been an

:27:22. > :27:25.unequivocal statement by that effect by the statement. Does he share the

:27:26. > :27:30.opinion of Stephen Bannon that the 21st century should see a return to

:27:31. > :27:36.nation states rather than growing existing multilateral ways? I think

:27:37. > :27:39.it is fair to say that we have problems with political elites that

:27:40. > :27:44.don't take the interests of the populations they represent into

:27:45. > :27:50.account. That's why Brexit happened. I think that's why Mr Trump became

:27:51. > :27:54.President Trump. This is the connected phenomena. You are

:27:55. > :27:58.obsessing about institutions, it is not about institutions, it's about

:27:59. > :28:03.the health of democracy and whether political elites do what is in the

:28:04. > :28:06.interests of the people they represent. Given the

:28:07. > :28:09.unpredictability of the new president, you never really know

:28:10. > :28:14.what he's going to do next, would it be wise for the British Prime

:28:15. > :28:21.Minister to hitch her wagon to his star? This is really churlish

:28:22. > :28:24.questioning. Come on, you don't know what he's going to do next, listen

:28:25. > :28:30.to what he says because he does what he's going to say. I know this may

:28:31. > :28:34.be shocking to some reporters, but look at his campaign promises, and

:28:35. > :28:40.the fact that in the last 15 days we have executed every single one that

:28:41. > :28:45.we could in the time permissible so there is nothing unpredictable about

:28:46. > :28:51.Donald Trump as president. OK then, if we do know what he's going to do

:28:52. > :28:55.next, what is he going to do next? Continue to make good on his

:28:56. > :29:01.election promises, to make America great again, to make the economy are

:29:02. > :29:06.flourishing economy, and most important of all from your

:29:07. > :29:10.perspective in the UK, to be the best friend possible to our friends

:29:11. > :29:16.and the worst enemy to our enemies. It is an old Marine Corps phrase and

:29:17. > :29:23.we tend to live by it. Thank you for your time, we will leave it there.

:29:24. > :29:30.Doctor Gorka, making it clear this administration won't spend political

:29:31. > :29:31.capital on trying to keep the European Union together, a watershed

:29:32. > :29:34.change in American foreign policy. Theresa May has made a big deal out

:29:35. > :29:37.of her commitment to help people on middle incomes who are "just

:29:38. > :29:40.about managing", and early this week we should get a good sense

:29:41. > :29:43.of what that means in practice - when plans to bring down the cost

:29:44. > :29:46.of housing and protect renters are published in the Government's

:29:47. > :29:48.new white paper. The paper is expected to introduce

:29:49. > :29:51.new rules on building Communities Secretary Sajid Javid

:29:52. > :29:56.has previously said politicians should not stand in the way

:29:57. > :29:59.of development, provided all options Also rumoured are new measures

:30:00. > :30:04.to speed up building the 1 million new homes the Government promised

:30:05. > :30:06.to build by 2020, including imposing five-year quotas

:30:07. > :30:10.on reluctant councils. Reports suggest there will be

:30:11. > :30:12.relaxation of building height restrictions,

:30:13. > :30:14.allowing home owners and developers to build to the height

:30:15. > :30:17.of the tallest building on the block without needing to seek

:30:18. > :30:22.planning permission. Other elements trialled include

:30:23. > :30:26.new measures to stop developers sitting on parcels of land

:30:27. > :30:28.without building homes, land banking, and moving railway

:30:29. > :30:30.station car parks Underground, The Government today said it

:30:31. > :30:39.will amend planning rules so more homes can be built specifically

:30:40. > :30:42.to be rented out through longer term tenancies, to provide more stability

:30:43. > :30:44.for young families, alongside its proposed ban

:30:45. > :30:51.on letting agent fees. And the Housing Minister,

:30:52. > :31:01.Gavin Barwell, joins me now. Welcome to the programme. Home

:31:02. > :31:04.ownership is now beyond the reach of most young people. You are now

:31:05. > :31:09.emphasising affordable homes for rent. Why have you given up on the

:31:10. > :31:12.Tory dream of a property owning democracy? We haven't given up on

:31:13. > :31:17.that. The decline on home ownership in this country started in 2004. So

:31:18. > :31:20.far we have stopped that decline, we haven't reversed it but we

:31:21. > :31:26.absolutely want to make sure that people who want to own and can do

:31:27. > :31:28.so. The Prime Minister was very clear a country that works for

:31:29. > :31:32.everyone. That means we have to have say something to say to those who

:31:33. > :31:37.want to rent as well as on. Home ownership of young people is 35%,

:31:38. > :31:41.used to be 60%. Are you telling me during the lifetime of this

:31:42. > :31:46.government that is going to rise? We want to reverse the decline. We have

:31:47. > :31:50.stabilised it. The decline started in 2004 under Labour. They weren't

:31:51. > :31:55.bothered about it. We have taken action and that has stop the

:31:56. > :31:59.decline... What about the rise? We have to make sure people work hard

:32:00. > :32:03.the right thing have the chance to own their home on home. We have

:32:04. > :32:07.helped people through help to buy, shared ownership, that is part of

:32:08. > :32:11.it, but we have to have something to say to those who want to rent. You

:32:12. > :32:17.say you want more rented homes so why did you introduce a 3%

:32:18. > :32:21.additional stamp duty levied to pay those investing in build to rent

:32:22. > :32:25.properties? That was basically to try and stop a lot of the

:32:26. > :32:28.speculation in the buy to let market. The Bank of England raised

:32:29. > :32:33.concerns about that. When you see the white paper, you will see there

:32:34. > :32:40.is a package of measures for Bill to rent, trying to get institutional

:32:41. > :32:44.investment for that, different to people going and buying a home on

:32:45. > :32:48.the private market and renting out. You are trying to get institutional

:32:49. > :32:51.money to comment, just as this government and subsequent ones

:32:52. > :32:54.before said it would get pension fund money to invest in

:32:55. > :32:58.infrastructure and it never happened. Why should this happen? Is

:32:59. > :33:01.already starting to happen. If you go around the country you can see

:33:02. > :33:06.some of these builder rent scheme is happening. There are changes in the

:33:07. > :33:17.White Paper... How much money from institutions is going into bill to

:33:18. > :33:19.rent modular hundreds of millions. I was at the stock exchange the other

:33:20. > :33:22.day celebrating the launch of one of our bombs designed to get this money

:33:23. > :33:25.on. There are schemes being... There is huge potential to expand it. We

:33:26. > :33:28.need more homes and we are too dependent on a small number of large

:33:29. > :33:35.developers. -- to launch one of our bonds. You talk about affordable

:33:36. > :33:41.renting, what is affordable? Defined as something that is at least 20%

:33:42. > :33:44.below the market price. It will vary around the country. Let me put it

:33:45. > :33:49.another way. The average couple renting now have to spend 50% of

:33:50. > :33:53.their income on rent. Is that affordable? That is exactly what

:33:54. > :33:56.we're trying to do something about. Whether you're trying to buy or

:33:57. > :34:00.rent, housing in this country has become less and less affordable

:34:01. > :34:03.because the 30-40 years governments haven't built in times. This white

:34:04. > :34:08.Paper is trying to do something about that. You have been in power

:34:09. > :34:16.six, almost seven years. That's right. Why are ownership of new

:34:17. > :34:19.homes to 24 year low? It was a low figure because it's a new five-year

:34:20. > :34:24.programme. That is not a great excuse. It's not an excuse at all.

:34:25. > :34:26.The way these things work, you have a five-year programme and in the

:34:27. > :34:30.last year you have a record number of delivery and when you start a new

:34:31. > :34:34.programme, a lower level. If you look at the average over six years,

:34:35. > :34:40.this government has built more affordable housing than the previous

:34:41. > :34:46.one. Stiletto 24 year loss, that is an embarrassment. Yes. We have the

:34:47. > :34:49.figures, last year was 32,000, the year before 60 6000. You get this

:34:50. > :34:55.cliff edge effect. It is embarrassing and we want to stop it

:34:56. > :34:59.happening in the future. You want to give tenants more secure and longer

:35:00. > :35:05.leases which rent rises are predictable in advance. Ed Miliband

:35:06. > :35:09.promoted three-year tenancies in the 2015 general election campaign and

:35:10. > :35:14.George Osborne said it was totally economically illiterate. What's

:35:15. > :35:19.changed? You are merging control of the rents people in charge, which

:35:20. > :35:23.we're not imposing. We want longer term tenancies. Most people have

:35:24. > :35:28.six-month tenancies... Within that there would be a control on how much

:35:29. > :35:32.the rent could go up? Right? It would be set for the period of the

:35:33. > :35:36.tenancies. That's what I just said, that's what Ed Miliband proposed. Ed

:35:37. > :35:41.Miliband proposed regulating it for the whole sector. One of the reasons

:35:42. > :35:46.institutional investment is so attractive, if you had a spare home

:35:47. > :35:50.and you want to rent out, you might need it any year, so you give it a

:35:51. > :35:55.short tenancy. If you have a block, they are interested in a long-term

:35:56. > :36:02.return and give families more security. You have set a target,

:36:03. > :36:05.your government, to build in the life of this parliament 1 million

:36:06. > :36:13.new homes in England by 2020. You're not going to make that? I think we

:36:14. > :36:16.are. If you look at 2015-16 we had 190,000 additional homes of this

:36:17. > :36:24.country. Just below the level we need to achieve. Over five...

:36:25. > :36:30.2015-16. You were probably looking at the new homes built. Talking

:36:31. > :36:33.about completions in England. That is not the best measure, with

:36:34. > :36:39.respect. You said you will complete 1 million homes by 2020 so what is

:36:40. > :36:43.wrong with it? We use a national statistic which looks at new homes

:36:44. > :36:45.built and conversions and changes of use minus demolitions. The total

:36:46. > :36:52.change of the housing stock over that year. On that basis I have the

:36:53. > :36:56.figures here. I have the figures. You looking I just completed. 1

:36:57. > :37:01.million new homes, the average rate of those built in the last three

:37:02. > :37:06.quarters was 30 6000. You have 14 more quarters to get to the 1

:37:07. > :37:10.million. You have to raise that to 50 6000. I put it to you, you won't

:37:11. > :37:15.do it. You're not looking at the full picture of new housing in this

:37:16. > :37:19.country. You're looking at brand-new homes and not including conversions

:37:20. > :37:24.or changes of use are not taking off, which we should, demolitions.

:37:25. > :37:30.If you look at the National statistic net additions, in 2015-16,

:37:31. > :37:34.100 and 90,000 new homes. We are behind schedule. -- 190,000. I am

:37:35. > :37:39.confident with the measures in the White Paper we can achieve that. It

:37:40. > :37:43.is not just about the national total, we need to build these homes

:37:44. > :37:49.are the right places. Will the green belt remain sacrosanct after the

:37:50. > :37:52.white paper? Not proposing to change the existing protections that there

:37:53. > :37:57.for green belts. What planning policy says is councils can remove

:37:58. > :37:59.land from green belts but only in exceptional circumstances and should

:38:00. > :38:06.look at at all the circumstances before doing that. No change? No. We

:38:07. > :38:12.have a manifesto commitment. You still think you will get 1 million

:38:13. > :38:16.homes? The green belt is only 15%. This idea we can only fix our broken

:38:17. > :38:19.housing market by taking huge swathes of land out of the green

:38:20. > :38:22.belt is not true. We will leave it there, thank you for joining us,

:38:23. > :38:24.Gavin Barwell. It is coming up to 11.40.

:38:25. > :38:26.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:27. > :38:36.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead...

:38:37. > :38:39.Coming up in the North West:

:38:40. > :38:44.isn't rosy - the leasehold homes proving a thorn

:38:45. > :38:52.I just feel like I've been completely mis-sold, my house.

:38:53. > :38:55.If I knew that they could do this, I would never have

:38:56. > :38:59.But surely coming up roses in the studio are Jake Berry,

:39:00. > :39:01.the Conservative MP for Rossendale and Darwen,

:39:02. > :39:04.for Stalybridge and Hyde and Shadow Economic Secretary

:39:05. > :39:07.First, we have to start, don't we, with Brexit?

:39:08. > :39:14.Because this week MPs started divorce proceedings from the EU,

:39:15. > :39:16.but some Labour MPs defied the party leadership and voted

:39:17. > :39:25.Here's Luciana Berger on why she did just that.

:39:26. > :39:30.I listened to my constituents, even those who voted

:39:31. > :39:34.None of us were led to believe, in any way,

:39:35. > :39:37.shape or form that it would result in us leaving the single market.

:39:38. > :39:39.I didn't believe that at this moment in time

:39:40. > :39:43.trigger is fired, essentially there is no turning back.

:39:44. > :39:45.Where do you think this leaves the Labour leadership?

:39:46. > :39:47.There's many of us who've voted in different

:39:48. > :39:49.ways and everyone did so for principled reasons.

:39:50. > :39:55.Whether we voted for or against triggering Article

:39:56. > :39:58.50, we will all be coming together next week in order to support

:39:59. > :40:00.various amendments and put those amendments forward.

:40:01. > :40:03.Jonathan, what is the point of a three line whip when 47 Labour MPs

:40:04. > :40:06.I don't think any party was unanimous

:40:07. > :40:10.I don't think they should be, to be honest.

:40:11. > :40:13.This is probably, in fact not probably, it

:40:14. > :40:18.is fundamentally the biggest issue any of us will ever have to vote on

:40:19. > :40:20.in Parliament in our lifetimes, unless something even more serious

:40:21. > :40:23.and unexpected happens in the next few years

:40:24. > :40:24.and people will have to go on

:40:25. > :40:28.what they think was right and what their areas did and I think if

:40:29. > :40:29.colleagues felt that areas were Remain,

:40:30. > :40:30.they wanted to honour that

:40:31. > :40:39.For my part, I think if you have a referendum you have due

:40:40. > :40:41.-- to honour the result of that referendum.

:40:42. > :40:43.The only people who could legitimately say they weren't

:40:44. > :40:45.following that, maybe people like Ken Clarke

:40:46. > :40:46.who would've paused the

:40:47. > :40:49.referendum in the first place but if you have a referendum to decide

:40:50. > :40:52.these things, you have got to honour that and I think that is the right

:40:53. > :40:55.position for the party leaderships have but I understand people

:40:56. > :40:56.have had different, you know, different

:40:57. > :40:58.opinions on that based on

:40:59. > :40:59.what people in their areas were saying.

:41:00. > :41:02.We have got to respect that, that is what Parliament is about.

:41:03. > :41:05.Jake, there were some serious criticism of the 77 page white

:41:06. > :41:08.talk of the economy, a focus on immigration,

:41:09. > :41:10.taking back legislation but not enough on how the economy is

:41:11. > :41:16.We can't be too focused on this Article

:41:17. > :41:21.We have to now move on and start talking about the white paper

:41:22. > :41:23.and actually how that divorce is going to take place.

:41:24. > :41:25.Now, there has been some criticism of the white

:41:26. > :41:31.I actually thought overall it was an excellent document but I

:41:32. > :41:33.think what it shows us is that we need

:41:34. > :41:34.to change our language and

:41:35. > :41:37.start talking about how Britain leaving the European Union isn't

:41:38. > :41:39.just good for Britain but it is going to be good

:41:40. > :41:42.for Europe as well and I think that is the really

:41:43. > :41:45.refreshing part of the white paper is that it started talking about

:41:46. > :41:48.Britain not being part of the European Union but supporting a

:41:49. > :41:51.And like any deal you ever make, whether it

:41:52. > :41:54.be a divorce or whether it be a business deal or a political deal,

:41:55. > :41:57.both sides have to win and I think it's really refreshing that this

:41:58. > :42:00.week we have started saying actually how can Britain win but how

:42:01. > :42:03.can we also make sure our friends and colleagues in Europe will take

:42:04. > :42:09.You might remember a couple of weeks ago we reported on how

:42:10. > :42:12.the Brexit Secretary David Davis promised to meet our Metro Mayors

:42:13. > :42:14.Greater Manchester and the Liverpool City Region,

:42:15. > :42:17.that's Merseyside plus Halton, head to the polls in May.

:42:18. > :42:19.Our Merseyside political reporter, Claire Hamilton, has been finding

:42:20. > :42:23.out what the candidates there would like to tell Mr Davis.

:42:24. > :42:25.Trying to win votes after losing the fight

:42:26. > :42:32.Liberal Democrat candidate for Metro Mayor of the Liverpool City region.

:42:33. > :42:42.Whoever wins in May will be invited to sit round a table with the

:42:43. > :42:44.Government to push the city region's agenda post Brexit.

:42:45. > :42:47.The Liverpool City region has got the same

:42:48. > :42:50.population as Northern Ireland so what I would do, I would work with

:42:51. > :42:53.the government of Northern Ireland and work with the mayor of the

:42:54. > :42:54.Manchester City region as well to establish

:42:55. > :42:55.an embassy in Brussels but

:42:56. > :42:57.I think regardless of whether we are in

:42:58. > :42:59.the European Union or not, we

:43:00. > :43:02.need to recognise it is important for our trade and our industry

:43:03. > :43:05.One of my personal aspirations is to see this

:43:06. > :43:06.city region becoming massively global city

:43:07. > :43:09.region and playing on

:43:10. > :43:11.The Liverpool City region was divided by

:43:12. > :43:15.Liverpool, Wirral and Sefton voted to remain in the EU.

:43:16. > :43:18.Saint Helens, Knowsley and Holton voted to leave.

:43:19. > :43:25.Three of the candidates in this election actively campaign to stay

:43:26. > :43:31.Conservative Tony Caldeira didn't vote.

:43:32. > :43:33.At his cushion factory in Knowsley, he says it is

:43:34. > :43:37.I think it could have a huge impact if we

:43:38. > :43:39.can do the right trade deals for Liverpool City region.

:43:40. > :43:42.To use my own example, we deal with the US

:43:43. > :43:44.and if we had a better tariff with the US,

:43:45. > :43:48.That will create more jobs and more growth that

:43:49. > :43:49.would be my priority if

:43:50. > :43:51.I'm going to be the elected mayor of Liverpool.

:43:52. > :43:54.Labour's candidate hopes cash will flow to the city after

:43:55. > :44:04.What I would like to see is some of the promises

:44:05. > :44:07.that we had during the referendum come to fruition,

:44:08. > :44:11.money that is now being repatriated, apparently, to the UK, some of that

:44:12. > :44:13.should be used to do some of the things

:44:14. > :44:14.that we have identified in

:44:15. > :44:18.We need to have a world-class workforce, locally so we can attract

:44:19. > :44:21.some of the inward investment we need so that we can build, create

:44:22. > :44:24.that economic growth that our area is crying out for.

:44:25. > :44:27.Liverpool's wealth was built on global trade.

:44:28. > :44:30.The Green party candidate wants new green technology to replace

:44:31. > :44:36.I've made a clear commitment for strong

:44:37. > :44:38.environmental protection and also for maintaining workers' rights, at

:44:39. > :44:42.least at the level that they have been under within the EU.

:44:43. > :44:45.Now, I would be looking for investment in

:44:46. > :44:48.jobs in the low carbon sector so that we can start building a low

:44:49. > :44:54.Rays of light and choppy waters, a reflection of the post Brexit

:44:55. > :44:57.future for these would-be Metro Mayors.

:44:58. > :45:02.Also with us is John Leech, the only non-Labour councillor

:45:03. > :45:04.on Manchester City Council, and former Liberal Democrat

:45:05. > :45:11.Carl Cashman there calling for a regional

:45:12. > :45:14.body to represent the north-west in Brussels.

:45:15. > :45:17.The feeling is that the Liberal Democrats are not accepting

:45:18. > :45:25.that we are leaving the EU, because we are.

:45:26. > :45:28.I think we do accept that we will be leaving the EU but we are

:45:29. > :45:32.very keen to ensure that we don't go far hard Brexit and that we have a

:45:33. > :45:35.good relationship with Europe after we have left the European Union

:45:36. > :45:37.because as it stands at the moment, in Manchester

:45:38. > :45:38.and the north-west in

:45:39. > :45:40.general, most of our trade is with the European Union.

:45:41. > :45:42.And your thoughts on the white paper, then?

:45:43. > :45:45.Does that represent a hard Brexit, harder than you would've liked?

:45:46. > :45:49.Well, I think all the noises coming out from Theresa May for a hard

:45:50. > :45:55.Brexit and that is not what people voted for in the referendum.

:45:56. > :45:59.Is she entitled to devise the white paper that she has,

:46:00. > :46:04.Well, I think from the Lib Dems' point of

:46:05. > :46:06.view, a sort of bright pink blancmange like substance

:46:07. > :46:10.global Britain, they voted for a Britain

:46:11. > :46:13.that faces the world and

:46:14. > :46:15.actually there could be no better city to look

:46:16. > :46:20.history of being the gateway to America, to see what a new Britain

:46:21. > :46:24.It should be a globally facing Britain which looks

:46:25. > :46:27.to our Commonwealth as trading partners, looks to the United States

:46:28. > :46:38.earlier, still supports a strong European Union and I think the white

:46:39. > :46:41.paper set out very well a way in which we can achieve that.

:46:42. > :46:43.A lot of things in there, for example,

:46:44. > :46:44.leaving the customs union which people

:46:45. > :46:46.have been critical of, are

:46:47. > :46:49.absolutely vital to ensure that Britain is free to make our own

:46:50. > :46:52.But Ken Clarke wasn't the only one to describe the white

:46:53. > :46:55.Several MPs across Europe said it is just

:46:56. > :46:58.totally unrealistic so she's pitching for a deal that will not be

:46:59. > :47:02.I don't think anyone thinks that every single

:47:03. > :47:05.desire set out in the white paper will be achieved by the Government.

:47:06. > :47:07.It is saying the deal we are aiming for.

:47:08. > :47:11.What we need is a deal that has the majority of what Britain wants

:47:12. > :47:15.and needs so we can go on to succeed but there will have to be some give

:47:16. > :47:19.Europe will have to get some benefit as well from Britain.

:47:20. > :47:22.There is a concern, Jonathan, that at the moment the opposition are not

:47:23. > :47:24.in a position to adequately scrutinise and stand up to the

:47:25. > :47:26.Government because there is such disunity.

:47:27. > :47:29.No, that is the job of Parliament as a whole, by the way,

:47:30. > :47:33.What Theresa May has promised us in the white paper is

:47:34. > :47:36.that everything that is good about the European Union and none of the

:47:37. > :47:38.burdens in terms of paying anything in and indeed

:47:39. > :47:39.more from around the

:47:40. > :47:43.Now, what the white paper doesn't really tell us is how you go

:47:44. > :47:45.about delivering that, how can you have no

:47:46. > :47:47.frictionless of trade with the rest of Europe

:47:48. > :47:49.still and have no tariffs with other

:47:50. > :47:52.That's true, parts of it are directly contradictory, Jake,

:47:53. > :47:56.Well, you know, there are a lot of countries that are in a

:47:57. > :47:58.customs union or trade freely with Europe

:47:59. > :47:59.who also trade freely with

:48:00. > :48:01.the rest of the world, Turkey does, for example.

:48:02. > :48:03.So I think there are precedents out there.

:48:04. > :48:05.But we are not looking for a deal which any other

:48:06. > :48:09.The Prime Minister has been absolutely clear that in a

:48:10. > :48:12.country that works for everyone, we have to have a British deal with

:48:13. > :48:17.But I think, absolutely, we should be looking at doing free

:48:18. > :48:21.trade deals with the United States, we have gone from the back of the

:48:22. > :48:23.queue under President Obama to the front of the queue under President

:48:24. > :48:27.Australia, New Zealand, Canada, all sort of natural allies

:48:28. > :48:30.of Britain, we share a lot of things, including the same head of

:48:31. > :48:36.That is to deny that we're missing out though out what we've got.

:48:37. > :48:38.It's not whether these countries, we can do deals

:48:39. > :48:48.We can't yet, we have got to wait a few years.

:48:49. > :48:50.It's this political question for the House of

:48:51. > :48:52.Commons and the House of Lords to an extent

:48:53. > :48:54.as to what we will do and

:48:55. > :48:57.what the Americans will ask for, number one, is that they don't like

:48:58. > :49:00.the ban across the EU on home own treated beef so that is going

:49:01. > :49:03.Now, do our constituents want growth home

:49:04. > :49:08.We can say, yes, these countries we can do deals with them,

:49:09. > :49:11.we also have to make political choices and it is unclear really

:49:12. > :49:12.what the Government will do on those.

:49:13. > :49:14.And, John, was it disappointing from your perspective

:49:15. > :49:17.that two senior Lib Dems MPs abstained from the vote.

:49:18. > :49:20.The Lib Dems are now seen as the main party when it

:49:21. > :49:22.comes to opposing leaving the European Union, two of them

:49:23. > :49:26.There were two MPs that abstained but the whole party

:49:27. > :49:29.is united behind ensuring that people get a final vote on the final

:49:30. > :49:31.deal but is brought forward by Theresa May.

:49:32. > :49:35.We also very, very clear that people living in the EU,

:49:36. > :49:36.British citizens should be allowed to stay,

:49:37. > :49:37.EU citizens living in

:49:38. > :49:41.And we are wholly united on that and the

:49:42. > :49:45.ammendents that are being put forward as the bill goes forward.

:49:46. > :49:47.I suspect we will get full support from all

:49:48. > :49:54.There is an argument that this doesn't come from the

:49:55. > :49:57.heart when it comes from the Liberal Democrats, it is just a way

:49:58. > :50:00.of getting your stool out, being a bit different and gaining

:50:01. > :50:04.I think that is a bit of spin from the other

:50:05. > :50:06.We have always been the pro-European party.

:50:07. > :50:09.We have always been the ones committed to being part of Europe

:50:10. > :50:12.and trading freely with Europe and making sure that we can

:50:13. > :50:19.Why not put the final deal to the public?

:50:20. > :50:21.How can you have a negotiation where you are

:50:22. > :50:23.having a second referendum at the end of it?

:50:24. > :50:26.There is no incentive for Europe to negotiate with us if we

:50:27. > :50:28.might turn around and say actually we are staying.

:50:29. > :50:31.I can see where that desire comes from but how can

:50:32. > :50:34.I think, Jonathan makes a very good point there and

:50:35. > :50:38.what I would go and say is of course the final deal will be put

:50:39. > :50:40.to the House of Commons and I pick up

:50:41. > :50:42.on what Jonathan says, actually regardless of what political party

:50:43. > :50:45.you are, almost regardless of the whip, this is the biggest

:50:46. > :50:46.decision facing Britain for a generation,

:50:47. > :50:49.probably that we were ever know, certainly in my lifetime.

:50:50. > :50:50.Every member of Parliament, whichever

:50:51. > :50:53.party they are from, has to play an active role

:50:54. > :50:53.in scrutinising both the

:50:54. > :50:56.deal and the legislation that we are currently passing.

:50:57. > :50:59.And in truth, at the end of it, we will have a vote

:51:00. > :51:03.on whether it is a good or bad deal the Britain and I hope and believe

:51:04. > :51:06.that we will get the best deal for Britain but you are beginning to

:51:07. > :51:09.How can it not be an absolute nightmare when...

:51:10. > :51:11.Especially for the Labour Party, this was essentially a

:51:12. > :51:15.binary choice this week, do we say yes or no to Article 50?

:51:16. > :51:17.It is going to get really complicated when it

:51:18. > :51:19.comes to customs agreements, when it comes to immigration, when it comes

:51:20. > :51:22.How can you be an effective opposition?

:51:23. > :51:25.Well, because we have people from both sides,

:51:26. > :51:31.who are Labour voters on

:51:32. > :51:34.both sides of the referendum and actually if you like what this

:51:35. > :51:36.country needs, and I see this in my mailbag every week,

:51:37. > :51:41.I think it has actually got more divided since the

:51:42. > :51:42.referendum, some very bitter opinions being expressed.

:51:43. > :51:45.At least Labour can represent both sides of that debate and that is

:51:46. > :51:49.We can't have a sort of cultural wall between Remainers

:51:50. > :51:50.and Leavers, we have got to start thinking

:51:51. > :51:55.terms of what that future is, I think it is going to be an open

:51:56. > :51:59.That's not what everyone who voted Leave, if we are being honest,

:52:00. > :52:04.Why are Labour and the Tories so scared of giving people a

:52:05. > :52:12.Don't give us what we are asking for and we will stay.

:52:13. > :52:14.We had the referendum, people voted either to

:52:15. > :52:16.Remain or to Leave for all different reasons.

:52:17. > :52:19.When we actually get a deal on the table, we should have the

:52:20. > :52:22.trust in the people that they should then did a final say.

:52:23. > :52:24.But are you saying that if they reject it, John,

:52:25. > :52:31.We are going to have to leave it there, fellas.

:52:32. > :52:34.John Leech, many thanks for joining us.

:52:35. > :52:38.Next, when you're buying a house, it's reasonable to expect to know

:52:39. > :52:41.But home-buyers across the region are complaining that's

:52:42. > :52:45.Here in the North West we build more leasehold houses than anywhere else

:52:46. > :52:48.in the country, that means you still don't own

:52:49. > :52:50.the property outright, as you would with a freehold.

:52:51. > :52:53.When Katie from Ellesmere Port tried to turn her lease into freehold,

:52:54. > :53:08.Katie loves her house and her garden but it's who owns the land it sits

:53:09. > :53:16.I just feel like I've been completely mis-sold my

:53:17. > :53:19.If I knew they could do this, I would've never

:53:20. > :53:28.She bought from Bellway on a leasehold basis in 2014.

:53:29. > :53:30.Then Bellway sold the freehold on to a

:53:31. > :53:32.company called HomeGround, the result was a huge

:53:33. > :53:34.hike in the asking place from an initial ?4500

:53:35. > :53:37.What could stop them from selling it on to

:53:38. > :53:38.somebody else and then that

:53:39. > :53:42.Have they given you any justification for the difference?

:53:43. > :53:48.They have refused to give me a breakdown of

:53:49. > :53:59.Amazingly, Katie's isn't the only leasehold issue on this one estate.

:54:00. > :54:01.While some like her face high buyout charges,

:54:02. > :54:02.the issue for others is

:54:03. > :54:06.?30 a month, that is a lot of money to be

:54:07. > :54:09.This lady, who is too frightened to be

:54:10. > :54:11.identified, bought from Taylor Wimpey.

:54:12. > :54:15.Her lease included a clause doubling the ground rent every ten years.

:54:16. > :54:19.This year, the rent will go from ?175 to 350,

:54:20. > :54:27.That impacts on the freehold price that Taylor Wimpey sold on at

:54:28. > :54:37.So had it have been a flat ?175 a year and never

:54:38. > :54:50.But because of the doubling, that is where the

:54:51. > :54:51.massive, massive increase has come in.

:54:52. > :54:53.We were their customers and I don't feel like

:54:54. > :54:58.such, I feel like we have been a scapegoat for a bit more cash.

:54:59. > :55:01.Taylor Wimpey says it no longer sells properties with this doubling

:55:02. > :55:04.The local MP is calling for a crackdown on sales of leasehold

:55:05. > :55:08.There needs to be legislation, there is absolutely no need

:55:09. > :55:11.for these properties to be sold on leasehold in the current climate.

:55:12. > :55:14.I can understand that the flats but for the Dutch houses, there is no

:55:15. > :55:21.The Government told parliament last month it was

:55:22. > :55:24.I'm very keen to it explore how we can promote greater

:55:25. > :55:26.transparency and fairness and to work with all interested

:55:27. > :55:28.parties to improve leaseholders' experience of

:55:29. > :55:32.Katie already has 200 people on her estate, part of her

:55:33. > :55:39.They are worried that any new rules will be too late for them.

:55:40. > :55:41.Jake, you used to work in property law.

:55:42. > :55:43.Do you think legislation here is necessary?

:55:44. > :55:54.Well, I think we will have to look very carefully at it.

:55:55. > :55:57.The Government is about to come out with a housing white paper which is

:55:58. > :56:00.going to be a fundamental change to make sure we can

:56:01. > :56:04.But if you hear stories like that, you realise that this is an absolute

:56:05. > :56:07.And if the Government needs to legislate it,

:56:08. > :56:09.it certainly shouldn't shy away from doing so.

:56:10. > :56:11.People do have the ability to buy the freehold of their

:56:12. > :56:13.property under something called the leasehold franchising

:56:14. > :56:15.act which was brought in in the late 1980s.

:56:16. > :56:18.If we see that developers, as appears to be the case here,

:56:19. > :56:21.although I don't know all the details, are getting round that

:56:22. > :56:24.ability of people to buy and own the freehold of their own home,

:56:25. > :56:25.absolutely it is somewhere the Government

:56:26. > :56:29.Jonathan, people might be thinking, do you know what, when

:56:30. > :56:31.I bought my house, I read the small print,

:56:32. > :56:32.it's their responsibility to

:56:33. > :56:36.There is no service being offered here.

:56:37. > :56:39.I've had a personal experience of this when I bought a

:56:40. > :56:41.house in my constituency about ten years ago.

:56:42. > :56:43.It is quite common and people don't realise because when

:56:44. > :56:45.you are excited about a new home and you're

:56:46. > :56:46.thinking about moving in and

:56:47. > :56:48.perhaps you don't know the difference between leasehold and

:56:49. > :56:50.freehold if it is your first property, especially.

:56:51. > :56:55.I think there is a majority in the House of Commons to

:56:56. > :56:58.ban this kind of practice so let's hope we see some proposals because I

:56:59. > :57:01.We have seen action in other areas where

:57:02. > :57:04.fees have been unreasonable and I agree absolutely, Jonathan, that if

:57:05. > :57:07.we need to take action then there will be a coalition that will come

:57:08. > :57:09.together to make sure that this stops.

:57:10. > :57:14.The American President's made one or two headlines this week,

:57:15. > :57:18.With that and the rest of the week's news, here's Mike Stevens.

:57:19. > :57:20.Donald Trump's travel ban on visitors from seven mainly Muslim

:57:21. > :57:22.countries prompted protests in Preston, Manchester

:57:23. > :57:31.Even if we don't achieve all of our aims by

:57:32. > :57:33.solidarity is really, really important.

:57:34. > :57:37.Rail passengers in Merseyside face strike action

:57:38. > :57:38.over Merseyrail's plans to introduce driver-only trains.

:57:39. > :57:45.A meeting with the RMT union broke up without agreement.

:57:46. > :57:47.Cumbria hosted an event to help householders

:57:48. > :57:50.and businesses still affected by last winter's floods.

:57:51. > :57:52.Residents say not enough is being done.

:57:53. > :57:56.12 months on and we are still, we are not straight.

:57:57. > :57:58.It'll be another 12 months before we actually get

:57:59. > :58:02.The English Democrats want to abolish car parking charges

:58:03. > :58:07.Stephen Morris is the party's candidate in the election

:58:08. > :58:12.And BAE Systems signed an agreement worth ?100 million

:58:13. > :58:15.to help design fighter jets for Turkey in Lancashire.

:58:16. > :58:18.The Prime Minister and her Turkish counterpart sealed

:58:19. > :58:28.Let's talk quickly about flood recovery

:58:29. > :58:29.because you both live in

:58:30. > :58:32.constituencies where people have been badly affected.

:58:33. > :58:34.Why a year on from those bad floods are people

:58:35. > :58:42.I think in a lot of cases, the damage was so bad in

:58:43. > :58:44.villages, like in my constituency of Rossendale

:58:45. > :58:47.literally, virtually had to knock their house

:58:48. > :58:51.Do they feel that they are being adequately supported though, that

:58:52. > :59:01.There's been quite a lot of support and certainly I know both Jonathan

:59:02. > :59:03.and I, I'm sure, have been working with ensuring

:59:04. > :59:04.companies to make sure that

:59:05. > :59:07.people can get the access to funds but it just shows actually how

:59:08. > :59:11.If you think that over a year since the

:59:12. > :59:13.Boxing Day floods which affected parts of Lancashire and

:59:14. > :59:15.greater Manchester, it really takes a long time for people to recover.

:59:16. > :59:17.And same in Millbrook in Stalybridge last year.

:59:18. > :59:20.Absolutely, Millbrook and Hollingworth as well, the other side

:59:21. > :59:22.Insurance companies are relatively good in my

:59:23. > :59:24.experience, you know, the level of disruption,

:59:25. > :59:27.I think people if they haven't experienced it or seen it, the

:59:28. > :59:30.Do you think central government should be doing more?

:59:31. > :59:34.I think what a lot of people feel they need at the time, and it

:59:35. > :59:36.is very hard to see how this could be offered,

:59:37. > :59:38.is essentially a flood emergency service that comes and

:59:39. > :59:45.The fire brigade's job is different to that, it is not to get

:59:46. > :59:47.people back on their feet and I think council staff do

:59:48. > :59:50.a brilliant job but it is hard but I think more

:59:51. > :59:51.support, particularly the assurance that

:59:52. > :59:53.if you have been hit by a

:59:54. > :59:58.flood, it won't happen again, that's what people really want.

:59:59. > :00:00.I can't not ask you this, there has been reports

:00:01. > :00:02.this week that the English Democrats candidate for Manchester

:00:03. > :00:05.Mayor Stephen Morris said that he will invite Donald Trump to

:00:06. > :00:08.Manchester should he become the mayor of greater Manchester, I'm

:00:09. > :00:11.Should Donald Trump be invited on a state visit to

:00:12. > :00:15.I mean, going to Buckingham Palace might be one

:00:16. > :00:17.but coming to Manchester is an even bigger one.

:00:18. > :00:22.Well, I'm not a Greater Manchester MP but the last

:00:23. > :00:24.American president to come to Manchester was President Lincoln

:00:25. > :00:26.and I think maybe he's got a slightly better record

:00:27. > :00:30.What are your thoughts on the Prime Minister going out there

:00:31. > :00:32.and making friends with who essentially has been the most

:00:33. > :00:36.I don't think he is the most unpopular man

:00:37. > :00:39.I think it is really important that we do everything we

:00:40. > :00:42.can to make sure that the special relationship with Britain and

:00:43. > :00:45.We may not love who is in the White House,

:00:46. > :00:50.Was she a bit quick off the blocks to invite him on that state visit?

:00:51. > :00:53.The Prime Minister has a duty to go out there

:00:54. > :00:55.and ensure that Britain has a strong relationship with America

:00:56. > :00:57.which will become more important to us now Britain

:00:58. > :01:00.Has she jeopardised our reputation elsewhere?

:01:01. > :01:04.If the leaders of Germany, Canada, Australia can have that

:01:05. > :01:06.relationship, that pragmatic relationship but also say, you know,

:01:07. > :01:09.a picture of a American five year old child handcuffed at an airport,

:01:10. > :01:10.that's unacceptable, that's divisive and damaging

:01:11. > :01:12.to our national interests in terms of national

:01:13. > :01:16.I think she far too quick and I think she's unfortunately

:01:17. > :01:18.damanged the reputation of the country aboard.

:01:19. > :01:22.My thanks to Jake Berry and Jonathan Reynolds

:01:23. > :01:25.Lucy Powell and David Rutley join us next week.

:01:26. > :01:28.Now I'll hand you back to Andrew Neil in London.

:01:29. > :01:33.programme at another time an airport expansion, but thank you to both of

:01:34. > :01:39.you for being here. Back to you, Andrew.

:01:40. > :01:43.Will the Government's plan to boost house-building

:01:44. > :01:46.Could a handful of Conservative MPs cause problems for

:01:47. > :01:51.And what is President Trump going to do next?

:01:52. > :02:09.You have been following the genesis of this housing white paper. What do

:02:10. > :02:13.you make of it? I think it will be quite spectacular, pretty radical

:02:14. > :02:17.stuff. We heard bits about beating up on developers. I understand it

:02:18. > :02:23.will be a whack, walk, covering every single problem with housing

:02:24. > :02:26.supply and trying to solve it. Which means bad news if you are a huge fan

:02:27. > :02:30.of the green belt, because they will go round that the other way by

:02:31. > :02:35.forcing large quotas on councils are making it down to councils where

:02:36. > :02:38.they build. If you fill up your brown space in towns they will have

:02:39. > :02:42.to trigger the exceptional circumstances bit of the bill to

:02:43. > :02:46.beat on green belts. Beating up developers, opening up the market

:02:47. > :02:51.for renters across the board. And Theresa May, one of the most

:02:52. > :02:57.defining thing she could do on the domestic agenda. I am not as excited

:02:58. > :03:04.as Tom about this. I look back to 2004, do you remember the Kate

:03:05. > :03:08.Barker report? Successive governments, successive prime

:03:09. > :03:12.ministers have been promising to address the housing shortage. In

:03:13. > :03:16.2004 Kate Barker recommended hundreds of thousands new homes.

:03:17. > :03:22.Gordon Brown talked about 3 million new homes by 2020 in 2007. It never

:03:23. > :03:25.happens. The reason is at the end of the day this is local politics,

:03:26. > :03:29.local councillors need to keep their seats and they won't keep their

:03:30. > :03:33.seats if there are hugely controversial developments locally

:03:34. > :03:37.that they support. Yes, the government can and are proposing to

:03:38. > :03:41.overrule councils that don't back local developments, but they may

:03:42. > :03:46.find themselves completely inundated with those cases. I think that is

:03:47. > :03:50.the whole point of it, to take on those NIMBY often Tory councils and

:03:51. > :03:58.force them to build. I can't think of a better defining issue for

:03:59. > :04:05.Theresa May than sticking one in the eye of some quite well off half Tory

:04:06. > :04:08.countryside councils. The government gives councils a quota of homes they

:04:09. > :04:12.have to fill, if they don't have to fill that all run out overland to

:04:13. > :04:16.fill the quota, the government then comes in and tells them they have to

:04:17. > :04:20.built on the green belt? How is that going to work? At the moment the

:04:21. > :04:24.green belt is absolutely sacrosanct in British politics. They'll have to

:04:25. > :04:30.do some work on educating people on what green belts means. Potato

:04:31. > :04:35.farms, golf courses... At the moment the idea people have of the green

:04:36. > :04:40.belt being verdant fields needs to be dismantled. You are right. I

:04:41. > :04:44.agree with Tom, 11 million people in the private rental sector in the UK.

:04:45. > :04:48.In the last election more voted Labour than conservative. This is an

:04:49. > :04:53.area where Theresa May would look to expand her vote. The problem has

:04:54. > :04:57.always been, the same problem we have with pension policy and why

:04:58. > :05:00.pensioners have done better than working families in recent years.

:05:01. > :05:08.They are older and they vote more and anything to the detriment of

:05:09. > :05:12.older people. I wonder how they will get private money to come in on

:05:13. > :05:18.anything like this go they would need to have a huge expansion? There

:05:19. > :05:22.is a huge amount of speculation and one of the thing that locks up the

:05:23. > :05:26.system as you have people buying land, taking out a stake of land in

:05:27. > :05:29.the hope that one point it may at some point free up. At the end of

:05:30. > :05:33.the day, unless you have councils far more willing to quickly fast

:05:34. > :05:37.track these applications, which they won't for the reason I said before,

:05:38. > :05:44.it's a very long-term investment. Ed Miliband proposed three-year leases

:05:45. > :05:49.in which the rent could only go up by an agreed formula, probably the

:05:50. > :05:54.three years to give the young families a certain stability over

:05:55. > :05:58.that period. He had a use it or lose it rules for planning development,

:05:59. > :06:02.if you don't use it you lose the planning rights. Somebody else gets

:06:03. > :06:07.it. The Tories disparaged that at the time. This is at the centre of

:06:08. > :06:11.their policy now. This is probably item number four of

:06:12. > :06:15.Ed Miliband's policy book Theresa May has wholesale pinched in the

:06:16. > :06:20.last six months or so. Why not? I think if you look at the change in

:06:21. > :06:25.mood across housing and planning over the last 5-6 years, it used to

:06:26. > :06:29.be an issue very much of green belt versus London planners. Now you have

:06:30. > :06:31.grandparents living in houses in the countryside, knowing their

:06:32. > :06:38.grandchildren can't get on the housing ladder any longer. Maybe a

:06:39. > :06:40.bit more intervention in the market, tougher on renting conditions, maybe

:06:41. > :06:46.that is exactly what the country needs. Will they meet the 1 million

:06:47. > :06:49.target? It would be a defiance of every political thing that has

:06:50. > :06:54.happened in the last ten years. I think Tom is right, if there is only

:06:55. > :06:57.one difference between Theresa May and David Cameron it's the

:06:58. > :07:03.willingness of the state to intervene. When Ed Miliband said

:07:04. > :07:08.that he was seen as communism, but Theresa May can get away with it.

:07:09. > :07:15.How serious is this talk of a couple of dozen Tories who were very loyal

:07:16. > :07:20.over voting for the principle of Article 50 but may now be tempted to

:07:21. > :07:25.vote for some amendments to Article 50 legislation that they would find

:07:26. > :07:29.quite attractive? I think that threat has certainly been taken

:07:30. > :07:35.seriously by levers. I spoke to the campaign group Leaves Means Leave

:07:36. > :07:38.last night. The figure they mentioned was up to 20 remaining

:07:39. > :07:41.Tories. That sounds a lot to me but that is what they are concerned

:07:42. > :07:47.about and those Tories would come together with Labour and the SNP to

:07:48. > :07:50.vote for that amendment. Although that amendment sounds rather nice

:07:51. > :07:55.and democratic, actually in the eyes of many levers that is a wrecking

:07:56. > :07:59.amendment. Because what you are doing is giving Parliament a sort of

:08:00. > :08:03.veto over whatever deal Theresa May brings back. What they want is the

:08:04. > :08:08.vote to be before that deal is finalised. It isn't necessarily the

:08:09. > :08:13.case that if Parliament decided they didn't like that deal we would just

:08:14. > :08:16.go to WTO, we would fall out of the European Union. There are mixed

:08:17. > :08:21.views as to whether we might remain in and things could be extended. My

:08:22. > :08:28.understanding is the people making the amendments, they won any deal

:08:29. > :08:33.that is done to be brought to Parliament in time, so that if

:08:34. > :08:37.Parliament fancies it it's done, but if it does and it doesn't just mean

:08:38. > :08:42.go to WTO rules. There will be time to go back, renegotiate or think

:08:43. > :08:48.again? The question is where it puts Britain's negotiating hand. Nine of

:08:49. > :08:53.the options... Once we trigger Article 50 the two negotiation

:08:54. > :08:56.begins on the power switches to Europe. They can run out the clock

:08:57. > :08:59.and it will be worse for us than them. I don't think either option is

:09:00. > :09:04.particularly appealing. I think what seems like a rather Serena week for

:09:05. > :09:09.Article 50 this week isn't going to be reflective of what will happen

:09:10. > :09:12.next. The way the government's position is at the moment, if at the

:09:13. > :09:17.end the only choice Parliament has is to vote for the deal or crash out

:09:18. > :09:20.on WTO rules, then even the remainder is going to vote for the

:09:21. > :09:24.deal even if they don't like it, because they would regard crashing

:09:25. > :09:31.out as the worst of all possible results. Possibly. It will be a

:09:32. > :09:34.great game of bluff if Theresa May fights off any of these amendments

:09:35. > :09:38.on Wednesday and gets a straightforward deal or no Deal

:09:39. > :09:41.vote. I have a funny feeling this amendment, if it's chosen, we must

:09:42. > :09:46.remember because we don't know if they will choose this amendment, if

:09:47. > :09:51.it does go to a vote on Wednesday it will be very tight indeed. Remember,

:09:52. > :09:56.one final thing Theresa May can do if she gets Parliament voting

:09:57. > :09:59.against, as Isabel would have it, she could try to get a new

:10:00. > :10:06.parliament and go for a general election. And probably get a huge

:10:07. > :10:12.majority to do so. The Lords, it goes there after the February

:10:13. > :10:21.recess. They are very pro-Europe, but does their instinct for

:10:22. > :10:26.self-preservation override that? I think that is it. A Tory Lord said

:10:27. > :10:29.this morning I will vote to block it on a conscience measure, but you

:10:30. > :10:34.have the likes of Bill Cash, veteran Eurosceptics, suddenly converted to

:10:35. > :10:39.the Lords reform saying is an outrage. I doubt they will vote for

:10:40. > :10:46.their own demise, to hasten their own demise by blocking it. What did

:10:47. > :10:50.you make of Doctor Gorka smart fascinating. Cut from the same cloth

:10:51. > :10:53.as his boss. I thought it was extraordinary listening to him,

:10:54. > :10:57.saying everything is going dutifully to plan. But at the end of the day,

:10:58. > :11:01.what they are doing is what people in America voted for Trump to do. If

:11:02. > :11:05.you look at Lord Ashcroft's polling on why America voted for Trump, they

:11:06. > :11:12.went into this with their eyes wide open. One of the top fears among

:11:13. > :11:14.American voters, particularly Republican leading ones was

:11:15. > :11:18.America's immigration policy is or could be letting in terror arrests.

:11:19. > :11:23.As far as he is concerned, he is doing what he was elected to do.

:11:24. > :11:26.This whole year is turning into a wonderful year long lecture series

:11:27. > :11:29.on how democracy works at a fundamental level. I'm not sure

:11:30. > :11:35.anyone wanted it but it's what we've got. This same in the way we've been

:11:36. > :11:40.talking about direct democracy and Parliamentary democracy. The same is

:11:41. > :11:43.happening in America between executive and judicial branches. We

:11:44. > :11:46.are seeing the limits of presidential power. Regardless of

:11:47. > :11:50.the fact that people voted for Trump they voted for senators. The judge

:11:51. > :11:58.who blocks this was appointed by George W Bush. So-called Judge

:11:59. > :12:00.Eckert Mac so-called George W Bush! It's fascinating we're having all

:12:01. > :12:05.these conversations now that I never bought five years ago we would be

:12:06. > :12:10.having at such a fundamental level. Has the media yet worked out how to

:12:11. > :12:14.cover the Trump administration or has he got us behaving like headless

:12:15. > :12:19.chickens? He says something incendiary and we all run over to do

:12:20. > :12:23.that and when you pick it off it turns out not to be as incendiary as

:12:24. > :12:27.we thought? And then back doing something and we all rush over

:12:28. > :12:34.there. Is he making fools of us? Is exactly what he did in the election

:12:35. > :12:37.campaign. So many quick and fast outrageous comments frontrunner on a

:12:38. > :12:41.daily basis, no one single one of them had full news cycle time to be

:12:42. > :12:44.pored over and examined. I think there is a problem with this.

:12:45. > :12:49.Although he keeps the upper hand, keeps the agenda and keeps on the

:12:50. > :12:53.populist ground, the problem is it easy to campaign like that. If you

:12:54. > :12:56.are governing in a state of semi-hysteria, I wonder how long the

:12:57. > :12:59.American public will be comfortable with that. They don't really want

:13:00. > :13:04.their government to be swirling chaos all the time, as fascinating

:13:05. > :13:11.as it might be on TV. They will be exhausted by it, I already am. I

:13:12. > :13:13.have been interviewing White House administration official since 1976

:13:14. > :13:17.and that is the first time someone hasn't given me a straight answer on

:13:18. > :13:19.America supporting the EU. That is a different world.

:13:20. > :13:23.Jo Coburn will be on BBC Two tomorrow at midday with

:13:24. > :13:25.the Daily Politics - and I'll be back here

:13:26. > :14:04.Remember, if it's Sunday - it's the Sunday Politics.

:14:05. > :14:17.TV: He's not your father. WOMAN GASPS

:14:18. > :14:30.so why not pay your TV licence in weekly instalments, too?