:00:38. > :00:41.Commons Speaker John Bercow is accused of compromising his
:00:42. > :00:44.impartiality by revealing he voted Remain in last year's EU referendum.
:00:45. > :00:53.The EU Withdrawal Bill clears its first Parliamentary hurdle.
:00:54. > :00:56.But will the House of Lords be quite so accommodating?
:00:57. > :01:02.Labour's Leader in the Lords joins us live.
:01:03. > :01:07.And we report from Stoke-on-Trent ahead of a crucial by-election
:01:08. > :01:12.later this month, where Ukip is looking to give
:01:13. > :01:15.And in the North West, riding roughshod over rural businesses -
:01:16. > :01:20.why the countryside is not champing at the bit for rate reform.
:01:21. > :01:32.And with me a political panel who frequently like to compromise
:01:33. > :01:38.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Janan Ganesh.
:01:39. > :01:44.I'll be trying to keep them in order during the course of the programme.
:01:45. > :01:47.So, Commons Speaker John Bercow has insisted his ability
:01:48. > :01:53.to act impartially is not damaged by reports that he voted to Remain
:01:54. > :02:00.The Sunday Telegraph reveals that Speaker Bercow revealed his views
:02:01. > :02:03.in front of an audience of students at Reading University
:02:04. > :02:20.This may not be popular with some people in this audience -
:02:21. > :02:24.I thought it was better to stay in the European Union than not,
:02:25. > :02:27.partly for economic reason, being part of a big trade bloc,
:02:28. > :02:32.and partly because I think we're in a world of power blocs,
:02:33. > :02:34.and I think for all the weaknesses and deficiencies
:02:35. > :02:37.of the European Union, it is better to be part of that big
:02:38. > :02:48.Speaker Bercow speaking at Reading University earlier this month. Does
:02:49. > :02:53.he not care is this I get that impression, he knows perfectly well,
:02:54. > :02:57.it states he has to be particularly -- Parliamentary neural. Whether
:02:58. > :03:01.there are going to be enough votes to force him out, the question, the
:03:02. > :03:06.last speaker wept out with the 20 vote against him. You yes to have
:03:07. > :03:13.the command of the support across the House. There is a Deputy
:03:14. > :03:22.Speaker, waiting, who would be superb. I think even the people who
:03:23. > :03:28.pretend to support Macis have had enough -- Speaker Bercow have had
:03:29. > :03:31.enough of his ways. The reason I ask whether he care, he didn't just tell
:03:32. > :03:36.the students that he voted to Remain, he then gave them a running
:03:37. > :03:42.commentary on all the issues that will be part of the Brexit
:03:43. > :03:45.negotiations, workers' rights, immigration, trade policy, everyone
:03:46. > :03:50.maternity leave got a hat tip from him. He would be a very well
:03:51. > :03:55.prepared Brexit minister if attendance needs a colleague --
:03:56. > :04:00.David Davis needs a colleague. I don't think this story makes his
:04:01. > :04:03.position untenable, what does is the wired pattern of behaviour of
:04:04. > :04:11.excessive candour on his political views, going back years, this is a
:04:12. > :04:18.guy who when the Queen visited Parliament described her as theical
:04:19. > :04:22.lied scope Queen. He had a running argument with David Cameron. We know
:04:23. > :04:32.his views on Brexit, we know his views on Donald Trump. . He has
:04:33. > :04:37.given interviews, none of the views are illegitimate but the candour
:04:38. > :04:41.which they are expressed with is scrupulous. Given Lyndsay Hoyle is a
:04:42. > :04:46.class accuse. He is the Deputy Speaker. And a fairly ready
:04:47. > :04:51.replacement, whether there is more of a movement to say, maybe not
:04:52. > :04:55.force Bercow out but acknowledge he has had a few years in the job and
:04:56. > :05:01.the question of successor ship comes into play. Has he concluded he is
:05:02. > :05:05.untouchable? What I can definitely say, is that he is determined to
:05:06. > :05:09.fight this one out, and not go of his own volition, so if he goes he
:05:10. > :05:16.will have to be forced out. He wants to stay. Which will be tough. It
:05:17. > :05:20.will be tough. Likely as things stand. I would say this, I speak to
:05:21. > :05:24.someone who likes the way he has brought the House of Commons to
:05:25. > :05:27.life, held ministers to account, forced them into explain thing,
:05:28. > :05:31.whenever there is a topical issue you know it will be in the House of
:05:32. > :05:38.Commons. He has changed that. He has. Time has been courageous, Ied a
:05:39. > :05:45.mire the way he has been a speaker. I would say this, during the
:05:46. > :05:48.referendum campaign, he asked me Nick Clegg, and Peter Hitchens to
:05:49. > :05:53.debate Brexit if his constituency. It was a packed out meeting. He
:05:54. > :05:58.chaired it. I said don't you want to join in? He didn't. He showed no
:05:59. > :06:05.desire to join in, he was impartial. He goes out to universities and kind
:06:06. > :06:11.of demyth GCSEs Parliament by speaking to them in a way, he
:06:12. > :06:19.doesn't gets credit for it and stays on after and drinks with them.
:06:20. > :06:23.Sometimes he, you know, it is clearly a mistake to have gone into
:06:24. > :06:26.his views retrospectively on that referendum campaign, I don't think
:06:27. > :06:30.that, did he try and stop Article 50 from being triggered in the House of
:06:31. > :06:34.Commons? That would be a scandal. Even that would be beyond him.
:06:35. > :06:40.Briefly, yes or no, could you imagine Betty Boothroyd behaving
:06:41. > :06:45.like that? Not at all. None of the recent speakers I could imagine
:06:46. > :06:48.doing that. It is good he is different.
:06:49. > :06:52.The bill that will allow the government to trigger Article 50
:06:53. > :06:53.and begin Brexit negotiations was voted through
:06:54. > :06:58.Many MPs were in a difficult position - unsure whether to vote
:06:59. > :06:59.with their conscience, their constituency,
:07:00. > :07:02.Europe, once such a divisive issue for the Conservatives,
:07:03. > :07:05.is now causing major divisions inside the Labour Party.
:07:06. > :07:10.So, let's have a look what happened in a bit more detail:
:07:11. > :07:12.Thanks to academic research carried out since the referendum,
:07:13. > :07:14.we now have estimates of how each individual constituency voted.
:07:15. > :07:20.It's thought that 410 constituencies voted Leave.
:07:21. > :07:28.On Wednesday night, the EU Notification of Withdrawal Bill
:07:29. > :07:30.was voted through by the House of Commons.
:07:31. > :07:39.The bill left the Labour Party divided.
:07:40. > :07:41.Jeremy Corbyn told his MPs to respect the result
:07:42. > :07:43.of the referendum and vote for the government's bill -
:07:44. > :07:47.But 52 Labour MPs defied Mr Corbyn's thee-line whip
:07:48. > :08:03.That's about a fifth of the Parliamentary Labour Party.
:08:04. > :08:05.Of those 52 Labour MPs who voted against the bill,
:08:06. > :08:08.the majority, 45 of them, represent seats that voted Remain.
:08:09. > :08:10.However, seven Labour MPs voted against the Article 50 Bill,
:08:11. > :08:12.even though their constituents voted Leave in the referendum.
:08:13. > :08:14.The Conservative Party were much more united.
:08:15. > :08:17.The vast majority of Tory MPs, 320 of them, voted for the bill.
:08:18. > :08:19.Just one Conservative MP, Ken Clarke, voted against it.
:08:20. > :08:21.His constituency, Rushcliffe in Nottinghamshire, voted Remain.
:08:22. > :08:23.The bill will now go to the House of Lords -
:08:24. > :08:37.peers will start debating it on Monday the 20th of February.
:08:38. > :08:39.Joining me now is Matthew Goodwin, politics professor at
:08:40. > :08:42.He's got a book out next month called
:08:43. > :08:44.Brexit: Why Britain Voted To Leave The European Union.
:08:45. > :08:53.Welcome to the programme. Has Brexit, how you voted in the
:08:54. > :08:56.referendum and your continuing attitudes toward it, is that now
:08:57. > :09:02.becoming the new dividing line in British politics? I think it
:09:03. > :09:05.certainly is contributing to a new dividing line, in western politics
:09:06. > :09:10.more generally, we know over the last ten years, that the old left
:09:11. > :09:14.and right division has been making way for a new division, between
:09:15. > :09:17.essentially social liberals and Conservative, and Brexit was a, an
:09:18. > :09:22.incident a moment that really reflected that new dividing line, so
:09:23. > :09:28.it wasn't just the case that Brexit has cut across Labour's base, it is
:09:29. > :09:33.that dividing line, that deeper division is cutting across social
:09:34. > :09:37.democracies more generally. Is there a possibility, no higher than that,
:09:38. > :09:42.that it will reShane our party politics? I think it is too early to
:09:43. > :09:46.know whether this is a fundamental long-term realignment. If we look at
:09:47. > :09:51.what is happening in local by-election, what is happening at
:09:52. > :09:58.by-elections, pictures a bit mixed but if you look at how some of the
:09:59. > :10:02.Labour vote is responding, I think that potentially reflects the
:10:03. > :10:06.possibility of a terminal decline for the Labour Party, it is going to
:10:07. > :10:10.be incredibly difficult for Labour to win these voters back, these are
:10:11. > :10:15.traditional working class, socially Conservative voters who are leaving
:10:16. > :10:19.the party, don't forget, since the 1997 general election. It is not
:10:20. > :10:24.just because of the referendum. If that was the case, Labour would
:10:25. > :10:27.become more a party of the Metropolitan areas, and less of a
:10:28. > :10:32.party outside of these area, is that what you are saying? What we are S
:10:33. > :10:37.seeing across the west can social democracy that retrenchment into the
:10:38. > :10:42.cosmopolitan, Metropolitan city area, university towns, you can
:10:43. > :10:45.seeing in many European states populist right parties filling the
:10:46. > :10:51.traditional socialist area, why are they doing that? Because they are
:10:52. > :10:55.offering two message, economic and cultural protectionism. Social
:10:56. > :10:58.Democrats are clinging to that economic protectionism but not
:10:59. > :11:02.saying much about migration and multiculturalism and that sort of
:11:03. > :11:06.stuff. Are there deeper forces at work than Jeremy Corbyn? He often
:11:07. > :11:10.gets the blame for what is happening to the Labour Party now, but if you
:11:11. > :11:17.look the way the Greek socialist party has been wiped out. The German
:11:18. > :11:21.Social Democrats are in trouble. The Italian socialist party has lost a
:11:22. > :11:26.referendum. The French socialist are coming close to being wiped out on
:11:27. > :11:30.April 23rd, Labour's problems, are part of a much wider problem of
:11:31. > :11:35.social democracy S Jeremy Corbyn is a surface problem, what I mean by
:11:36. > :11:38.that is you could replace him tosh with another leader, they would
:11:39. > :11:45.still have this fundamental tension within the electorate. They are
:11:46. > :11:48.trying to appeal to two differenter reconcilable groups of voters who
:11:49. > :11:53.think differently about the key issues of the day. It is very
:11:54. > :11:59.difficult for any centre left party now to assemble the kinds of
:12:00. > :12:02.coalitionses we saw in the '90s with Clinton and Blair and Schroeder.
:12:03. > :12:08.Those days are gone. Does that explain why it is now Labour, rather
:12:09. > :12:12.than the Conservatives, historically the party divided over the European
:12:13. > :12:18.Union, does all of that help to explain why its Labour that now
:12:19. > :12:24.seems, disunited over the EU? I think so, I think also that the
:12:25. > :12:27.issue of Brexit, and the EU, is so immatly wrapped up with that issue
:12:28. > :12:32.of immigration, if you look at who has been abandoned Labour since 2015
:12:33. > :12:38.or the late 90s, the one thing those voters share is a rejection of the
:12:39. > :12:42.so-called liberal consensus on EU membership and mass immigration. It
:12:43. > :12:47.is difficult for any Labour lead eer co-bin or Clive Lewis on Dan Jarvis,
:12:48. > :12:51.to bring those voters back unless they are going to move on that
:12:52. > :12:56.cultural terrain. If they are not, they may not go to Ukip, they might
:12:57. > :12:57.go to somewhere more difficult for Labour which is political apathy.
:12:58. > :13:01.Thank you for that. Attention now shifts to the House
:13:02. > :13:03.of Lords where peers will begin scrutinising the EU Withdrawal Bill
:13:04. > :13:06.in just over a week. Brexit Secretary David Davis urged
:13:07. > :13:09.the Lords "to do its patriotic duty" and resist the urge to tinker
:13:10. > :13:11.with the legislation. Former minister Oliver Letwin
:13:12. > :13:13.went one further - mooting the possibility
:13:14. > :13:15.of the abolition of the Lords if it sought to frustrate
:13:16. > :13:17.the bill in any way. Here he is posing the question
:13:18. > :13:25.in the Commons on Thursday. Would he find time, in government
:13:26. > :13:28.time for a debate, should the other place seek to delay beyond the end
:13:29. > :13:31.of March the passage of our accession to Article 50, for this
:13:32. > :13:34.House to discuss the possibility of either the abolition or full-scale
:13:35. > :13:44.reform of the other place? And Oliver Letwin joins
:13:45. > :13:57.me now from Dorset. Welcome back to the programme Mr Let
:13:58. > :14:01.win. Before we come on to the Lord's, can I get your thoughts on a
:14:02. > :14:05.matter that has been making the news this morning and John Bercow's
:14:06. > :14:10.remarks about being a remain voter an giving something of a running
:14:11. > :14:15.commentary on various Brexit issues, has he sqloefr stepped the mark as
:14:16. > :14:23.speaker? -- overstepped the mark. I think this is slightly a fuss about
:14:24. > :14:26.nothing. Every person who thinks about politics will have had some
:14:27. > :14:30.opinion about great matters like Brexit, and I really don't see any
:14:31. > :14:36.particular reason why his opinion shouldn't be known after the fact.
:14:37. > :14:40.I, I was there throughout the five days of the Brexit debate, and I
:14:41. > :14:45.have to say, I thought he was pretty scrupulously fair in the way he
:14:46. > :14:48.handled the House, so, I, I don't really share the view that there is
:14:49. > :14:53.some terrible thing that has been revealed this weekend. Let me come
:14:54. > :14:59.on to what we are here to talk about, which is the Lords. Why have
:15:00. > :15:03.you raised the threat of the abolition of the Lord for doing its
:15:04. > :15:11.job of scrutinising what is coming out the Commons? Well, you know,
:15:12. > :15:16.Andrew, this question of the job of the House of Lords and scrutiny, has
:15:17. > :15:21.to be looked at carefully. There are all sorts of bills that come out the
:15:22. > :15:25.House of Commons which are detailed things that relate to, finance, and
:15:26. > :15:30.expenditure, and the criminal law, and all that sort of thing, and all
:15:31. > :15:34.of that, I admire the work that the House of Lords does, as you say
:15:35. > :15:40.scrutinising and we shouldn't use that word loosely, it means looking
:15:41. > :15:45.carefully at the detail, line by line of complicated legislation,
:15:46. > :15:49.hundreds of Paps in some cases, and spotting, using the considerable
:15:50. > :15:53.expertise many, not all be many of the peers have, in any given field,
:15:54. > :15:58.to identify things where the Commons has got it wrong in the sense that
:15:59. > :16:01.the legislation wouldn't achieve what the Government of the day is
:16:02. > :16:06.seeking to make it achieve. That is a serious proper role for an Upper
:16:07. > :16:10.House and the House of Lords performs it pretty
:16:11. > :16:21.Now this is a very different case. This is a two clause bill. The first
:16:22. > :16:27.clause which is the operative clause says the Prime Minister should go
:16:28. > :16:33.ahead and sign... I understand all that. We haven't got that much time,
:16:34. > :16:40.this is becoming a monologue. There is nothing to scrutinise, Andrew.
:16:41. > :16:45.There were plenty of amendments put before the Commons, none of them got
:16:46. > :16:48.through, it is true. There are eight Labour amendments in the Lords, are
:16:49. > :16:53.you resigned to this bill coming back to the Commons with amendments?
:16:54. > :16:57.No, it should not come back with amendments. There were hundreds of
:16:58. > :17:01.amendments literally put down in the House of Commons, they were all
:17:02. > :17:05.drunk. They were all trying one way or another to derail the process.
:17:06. > :17:12.This is a binary issue, should Theresa May sign the withdrawal or
:17:13. > :17:18.not? What should the Commons do? The Commons has now voted in favour of
:17:19. > :17:27.it. Node do should tolerate and unelected chamber forcing the
:17:28. > :17:30.British people... The people voted in a referendum and the Commons
:17:31. > :17:35.voted. The matter is now signed and sealed and should not be derailed by
:17:36. > :17:40.the House of Lords. On Labour amendment wants confirmation that
:17:41. > :17:44.when it is done, the potential Brexit agreement will be put before
:17:45. > :17:49.parliament before any vote in the European Parliament, that has been
:17:50. > :17:54.an agreed principle, what is wrong with that amendments? The government
:17:55. > :17:57.has already agreed there will be a vote, but actually, what the
:17:58. > :18:02.amendments were seeking was to give the Commons a further vote on
:18:03. > :18:05.whether we actually leave or not. That is already decided. Neither the
:18:06. > :18:11.House of Lords nor anybody else has a right in my view, despite the fact
:18:12. > :18:16.I was a remain, to what the will of the British people. Nobody should
:18:17. > :18:20.think an unelected chamber should now try to change the course of
:18:21. > :18:26.British history by asserting amendments in a very effective on
:18:27. > :18:28.clause bill which says go ahead and trigger Article 50. Are you
:18:29. > :18:32.concerned that amendments by the Lords which would then have to go
:18:33. > :18:39.back to the Commons for consideration, are you concerned
:18:40. > :18:44.that could derail or delay the Prime Minister's timetable for Article 50?
:18:45. > :18:49.Yes, exactly. That would be the result of a prolonged bout of
:18:50. > :18:52.ping-pong between the two houses, or much worse, if the House of Lords
:18:53. > :18:57.failed to give way and the Parliament act had to be used. It
:18:58. > :19:01.would really be intolerable. It is not good for our country. Those of
:19:02. > :19:07.us who voted remain would prefer for that not to happen. The whole
:19:08. > :19:12.country -- it is important for the whole country that this happens in a
:19:13. > :19:16.rapid way and allowing the government free rein to negotiate,
:19:17. > :19:20.that is surely in all our advantages? Deed think any efforts
:19:21. > :19:25.to abolish the House of Lords, an issue you have raised, does that
:19:26. > :19:32.make it easier because your friend David Cameron stuffed the upper
:19:33. > :19:36.chamber with donors, lapdogs and lingerie designers? I was among
:19:37. > :19:41.those who advocated for many years wholesale reform of the House of
:19:42. > :19:45.Lords, to turn it into a serious elected second chamber. I think we
:19:46. > :19:50.should have an upper house which commands legitimacy. This is a
:19:51. > :19:55.second issue. Here we have not got such a House and it seems to be very
:19:56. > :19:58.clear that it should not seek to derail on delay the action which has
:19:59. > :20:03.been mandated by the referendum, agreed by the House of Commons, and
:20:04. > :20:08.what we want to see now is a smooth orderly effect for this bill, so it
:20:09. > :20:14.becomes law and Theresa May can go ahead and negotiate on our behalf.
:20:15. > :20:17.One more question on the process, if the Lords to amend the bill and it
:20:18. > :20:23.goes back to the Commons and the Commons sends these amendments back
:20:24. > :20:30.again, take them out, how long could this ping-pong between the two
:20:31. > :20:34.chambers go on in your experience? It is a very, very interesting and
:20:35. > :20:38.complicated question with the clerks of the two ends of the Palace of
:20:39. > :20:44.Westminster not always agreeing about this. But through certain
:20:45. > :20:47.machinations of slightly changing amendments as they go, in my
:20:48. > :20:51.experience this could carry on for an awful long time if clever people,
:20:52. > :20:54.and there are plenty of clever people in the House of Lords, want
:20:55. > :20:58.to do that and that is precisely why I think we should not tolerate it.
:20:59. > :21:01.Oliver Letwin, thank you for joining us from Dorset.
:21:02. > :21:06.Joining me now is Labour's Leader in the House of Lords, Angela Smith.
:21:07. > :21:12.The Commons passed this bill without any amendments... There were
:21:13. > :21:17.changes, the government did concede a couple of points. But the
:21:18. > :21:22.amendments did not go through. Does that put pressure on the Lords to do
:21:23. > :21:26.the same? I think the Lords always feels under pressure to do the right
:21:27. > :21:32.thing. When I heard Oliver Letwin, I did not know whether to laugh or
:21:33. > :21:38.cry. We will not frustrate, we will not wreck, we will not sabotage. We
:21:39. > :21:42.will do what David Davis said was our patriotic duty. We will
:21:43. > :21:45.scrutinise the bill. We have at amendments from the Labour Party. We
:21:46. > :21:49.will look at those. It depends on the government response if we vote
:21:50. > :21:53.on those. There could be amendments asking the Commons to look again.
:21:54. > :21:59.That is normally what we do. It is not the wrong thing to do. But if
:22:00. > :22:03.you do this and make amendments, it then goes back to the Commons. If
:22:04. > :22:07.the Commons rejects the Lords' amendments, what do you think will
:22:08. > :22:14.happen? I do not see any extended ping-pong at all. It is perfectly
:22:15. > :22:18.legitimate. We are not talking about the outcome of negotiations, we are
:22:19. > :22:21.talking about the process. The process of engaging with Parliament
:22:22. > :22:25.and reporting to Parliament. It would be totally responsible for
:22:26. > :22:28.Parliament to say, off you go, Theresa May, have two years of
:22:29. > :22:32.negotiation and come back and talk to us at the end. The has to be a
:22:33. > :22:36.process where the government can use the expertise of parliament to get
:22:37. > :22:42.this right. But if you do put in some amendments, it has to go back
:22:43. > :22:45.to the Commons, they may well say they don't want those amendments and
:22:46. > :22:50.it may go back to the Lords, could that at the very least delay the
:22:51. > :22:56.Prime Minister's Brexit timetable? I don't think so. She said the end of
:22:57. > :23:00.March. Time has been built in for all the normal processes. I think
:23:01. > :23:03.Oliver Letwin and others are getting a bit overexcited. This is the
:23:04. > :23:07.normal process. Unless the government get things right the
:23:08. > :23:11.first time every time, the has to be this kind of process. These are
:23:12. > :23:16.reasonable amendments. This is a Labour amendment we are talking
:23:17. > :23:29.about here, you want a vote in the UK Parliament before any
:23:30. > :23:33.vote in the European Parliament if and when the Brexit deal is done,
:23:34. > :23:36.the Commons and the Lords get to vote on it first. But the government
:23:37. > :23:40.I think have already agreed to that so what is the point? It needs to be
:23:41. > :23:42.on the face of the bill. It is over well if the government have agreed
:23:43. > :23:46.it. Lord dubs had an agreement about child and look what happened to
:23:47. > :23:51.that. Does not sound as if you would go to the wire on that? It is
:23:52. > :23:56.important it is not just about the vote at the end, you have the
:23:57. > :24:02.ongoing engagement. If it is going to be a bad deal, we need to know
:24:03. > :24:07.long before we get to that stage? Is it something you would hold out for?
:24:08. > :24:12.I don't know yet. It is about how the House of Lords votes, Labour do
:24:13. > :24:16.not have a majority, we never had a majority in the House of Lords when
:24:17. > :24:21.we were in government. It is wrong to suggest that we cannot debate
:24:22. > :24:27.these issues... I don't think anyone is suggesting that. They are. It is
:24:28. > :24:30.not unfair to ask the government to ask the House of Commons to look
:24:31. > :24:34.again to look at those issues if that is what the House of Lords
:24:35. > :24:39.decides. Bit of the House of Commons says we looked, we are sticking with
:24:40. > :24:44.what we voted for, we rejected every amendment by at least 30 votes on
:24:45. > :24:48.all occasions, the Lords then have to buckle, is that what you are
:24:49. > :24:52.saying? Some point I think it is clear the House of Commons have to
:24:53. > :24:56.have its say. I think it is inconceivable that having had a
:24:57. > :25:01.referendum, which was not overwhelming, but it was a clear
:25:02. > :25:04.result, the House of Lords has no intention of sabotaging that but
:25:05. > :25:08.there are things which are not good about the process that we think
:25:09. > :25:12.could be improved. We have not just have the result of the referendum
:25:13. > :25:18.which voted to leave, but we have had the will of the Commons that
:25:19. > :25:25.passed this legislation by a majority of 372. And I am not
:25:26. > :25:29.contesting that for a second! Could you cite a precedent for the upper
:25:30. > :25:34.house amending a bill which passed by 372 votes in the Commons? Quite
:25:35. > :25:36.other things will come to the House of Lords with big majorities from
:25:37. > :25:41.the Commons and quite often the amendments we get, with that then
:25:42. > :25:47.forward and the government sees it could do better. Though not
:25:48. > :25:49.necessarily saying the government has got things wrong, but they could
:25:50. > :25:55.do things better. That happens time and time again and it is not
:25:56. > :26:00.unusual. If you were seen to thwart the referendum result and the vote
:26:01. > :26:04.in the Commons, the elected chamber of parliament, is the threat of
:26:05. > :26:08.abolition hanging over you? I think that is really ridiculous and
:26:09. > :26:11.absolute nonsense. We are not tying to what the decision of the House of
:26:12. > :26:15.Commons, we are trying to do better. It is a bit rich of the government
:26:16. > :26:20.and Oliver Letwin to complain about getting things through in time when
:26:21. > :26:25.the House of Commons spent -- the government spent three months trying
:26:26. > :26:28.to debate this issue. There have been some strong questions put to
:26:29. > :26:31.the government from the House of Lords on all sides. I don't know if
:26:32. > :26:40.the amendments have been passed or not. I think we have a good case for
:26:41. > :26:48.the government to get debate the point. If a traditional MP like
:26:49. > :26:51.Oliver Letwin is calling for the abolition of the hereditary and
:26:52. > :26:55.appointed chamber, and the Labour person like yourself was trying to
:26:56. > :27:01.defend that, that would not be a sustainable position, I would
:27:02. > :27:03.suggest! We saw this with the Strathclyde report as well, this is
:27:04. > :27:06.a government like no other. It is the first Conservative government in
:27:07. > :27:12.history not to have an automatic majority. They do not like challenge
:27:13. > :27:17.or scrutiny. But you get my point, Labour cannot go to the wire in
:27:18. > :27:20.defending and an elected second chamber, can it? Actually, Labour
:27:21. > :27:23.can go to the wire in saying the government does not get it right
:27:24. > :27:30.every time. House of Lords is going to normal processes and people like
:27:31. > :27:34.Oliver Letwin are really getting a little bit over excited, and people
:27:35. > :27:41.who have been anonymously briefing. Who has been anonymously briefing? I
:27:42. > :27:44.don't know, they are anonymous! I understand people want to make
:27:45. > :27:48.amendments, that is the role of the House of Lords, but can I just for
:27:49. > :27:52.the avoidance of doubt, is it still your case that whatever amendments
:27:53. > :27:57.to make, whatever may go back and forward, it is not your intention to
:27:58. > :28:03.stop Article 50 being triggered by the end of March? I have been saying
:28:04. > :28:06.that, exactly that for months and months and months. It is
:28:07. > :28:09.inconceivable that an unelected House will thwart the will of the
:28:10. > :28:13.House of Commons and a referendum on this issue. But that does not mean
:28:14. > :28:18.we will be bullied by Oliver Letwin and others. But the triggering will
:28:19. > :28:23.happen by the end of March? I very much suspect so unless Theresa May
:28:24. > :28:26.has second thoughts, I suspect that will happen. Thank you.
:28:27. > :28:28.Now, just because it's parliamentary recess next week
:28:29. > :28:32.There are two by-elections round the corner -
:28:33. > :28:34.one in Copeland, and another in Stoke-on-Trent Central
:28:35. > :28:36.where the former Shadow Education Secretary,
:28:37. > :28:38.Tristram Hunt, vacated his seat to take up a role
:28:39. > :28:41.as Director of the Victoria Albert Museum in London.
:28:42. > :28:44.But Labour are facing a fight to hold onto the constituency
:28:45. > :28:50.Seconds away, Ukip's new leader has stepped into the ring
:28:51. > :28:52.as their candidate in a by-election bout to see
:28:53. > :28:59.At the last election Ukip came second to Labour here
:29:00. > :29:04.But now they are confident they can land a knockout blow,
:29:05. > :29:11.because this place is packed with people that voted to leave the EU.
:29:12. > :29:14.70% of people voted to leave the European Union.
:29:15. > :29:22.I'm the only candidate standing in this election
:29:23. > :29:24.who is a true Brexiteer, who has always campaigned to leave
:29:25. > :29:27.the EU and therefore I believe I would be the best person
:29:28. > :29:30.But he has had to fight off allegations
:29:31. > :29:33.he wasn't living in the constituency when he entered the contest.
:29:34. > :29:36.Explain to me what is going on with this issue about your house?
:29:37. > :29:39.Well, we took up the lease the day before nominations.
:29:40. > :29:41.Everything we've done is perfectly legal and within the law.
:29:42. > :29:46.The Labour Party are trying to get off the real issues in this election
:29:47. > :29:53.and focus on something which is banal nonsense.
:29:54. > :29:59.And there's been trouble as well for the Labour contender.
:30:00. > :30:01.He's been labelled a Remoaner after he sent a series
:30:02. > :30:04.of anti-Brexit tweets, filled with words
:30:05. > :30:15.I can't believe I'm about to ask this question in a nursery
:30:16. > :30:17.on a Sunday morning TV programme, but did you really tweet that
:30:18. > :30:22.I tweeted many things about Brexit, that's tweet is out there.
:30:23. > :30:25.It was done quite after the referendum result and it
:30:26. > :30:28.was my way of showing my frustration at the fact that months
:30:29. > :30:33.after the result we hadn't had anything from the government.
:30:34. > :30:35.Theresa May had failed to produce any plan,
:30:36. > :30:37.she had failed to give any meaningful statement
:30:38. > :30:39.about what Brexit meant other than bland statements
:30:40. > :30:42.about Brexit is Brexit, and it's a hard Brexit, or a soft Brexit.
:30:43. > :30:46.The context of it was it was out of frustration.
:30:47. > :30:49.So you didn't mean to insult the 70% of the people who live here
:30:50. > :30:52.I never mean to insult anybody and you know,
:30:53. > :30:55.I've made it quite clear, if I'm elected as the member
:30:56. > :30:57.of Parliament for Stoke-on-Trent Central, I will absolutely respect
:30:58. > :30:59.the wishes of the people of Stoke Central.
:31:00. > :31:03.I will make sure my vote in parliament is to trigger Article 50.
:31:04. > :31:06.While the Tories' man has done little bit of rebranding too.
:31:07. > :31:09.I voted Remain and I've been open about that, but my top priority
:31:10. > :31:12.is about the economy and to ensure we still have an
:31:13. > :31:15.Theresa May has set out clear proposal to ensure we develop
:31:16. > :31:25.a trade relationship with Europe and make that a success.
:31:26. > :31:28.It means the Lib Dems and the Greens are the ones battling Brexit.
:31:29. > :31:31.Well, when the Lib Dem candidate is actually here.
:31:32. > :31:36.The candidate is a consultant cardiologist.
:31:37. > :31:39.He is actually at work today doing very important heart surgery.
:31:40. > :31:42.He will be back tomorrow, back on the campaign trail working hard.
:31:43. > :31:46.30% of people voted to Remain and nobody else
:31:47. > :31:50.is representing them, so, you know, it is still a live issue.
:31:51. > :31:51.It is still something people care about.
:31:52. > :31:54.We are only at the start of the Article 50 process
:31:55. > :31:59.We are very a clear that we are standing up for those
:32:00. > :32:02.who want to remain in the single market, who want to protect jobs
:32:03. > :32:07.Labour have taken people for granted in this area for a great many years.
:32:08. > :32:10.Ukip, I'm afraid, all Ukip can offer to politics is division.
:32:11. > :32:12.I've covered a lot of by-elections where Ukip have come second.
:32:13. > :32:15.We'll find out if they really got Labour on the ropes this
:32:16. > :32:35.And here is a full list of all the candidates standing
:32:36. > :32:46.in the Stoke-on-Trent Central by-election.
:32:47. > :32:55.They do atract lots of candidates. You can get that on the BBC website
:32:56. > :33:03.as well. I was trying to think back, here we have the main opposition
:33:04. > :33:04.party defending two seats in by-elections in the midterm of a
:33:05. > :33:12.government. All the speculation is where the
:33:13. > :33:17.opposition party can hold on, that is unprecedented. I can't give of an
:33:18. > :33:22.equivalent. You wouldn't just expect them to win seats they have held
:33:23. > :33:28.traditionally, you would expect hem to make inroads into seats held by
:33:29. > :33:32.the other party, I wonder if they fail to hold on to just one of
:33:33. > :33:38.these, whether it accelerates the momentum and criticism of the
:33:39. > :33:42.leadership of the moment. I think they are interesting constituencies.
:33:43. > :33:48.Matthew good win was talking about the left win coalition over the
:33:49. > :33:55.years, almost being too broad for its own good, including places like
:33:56. > :33:59.Primrose Hill and Hackney. Big university towns in Manchester,
:34:00. > :34:09.Bristol. Diverse ethnically and included places like Stoke which are
:34:10. > :34:14.more Conservative. With a small c. Less economically well-off, more
:34:15. > :34:17.diverse, can the left hang on to both bits of country. Recent
:34:18. > :34:21.evidence suggests it cannot and the opportunity for Ukip is to pick up
:34:22. > :34:25.the second of those two types of community, the Stokes and the cope
:34:26. > :34:29.lands. That what makes the by-elections interest I would
:34:30. > :34:34.suggest. It is not just about Mr Corbyn's future about which we hear
:34:35. > :34:38.too much, it is about this traditional Labour coalition, can it
:34:39. > :34:42.still survive, particularly in places like Stoke? Europe clearly is
:34:43. > :34:49.a test. I think it's a myth by the way that Labour are only split now,
:34:50. > :34:54.over Europe and it has always been a Tory problem, last time I was on I
:34:55. > :35:01.mentioned it. That is why we had a referendum in 75. That is why they
:35:02. > :35:06.had a round then. But they were in chaos behind the scenes over what
:35:07. > :35:11.they thought about the euro, skillful leadership can paper over
:35:12. > :35:15.the cracks, and to address the wider issue of whether we are now in an
:35:16. > :35:19.era where left right issues have disappeared, and there is more of a
:35:20. > :35:27.regional divide, if you take Europe out of the equation which you can't,
:35:28. > :35:30.but if you were able to, issues about health, transport housing do
:35:31. > :35:36.split more left-right than a regional divide, so I think there is
:35:37. > :35:41.still fundamental left-right issues, but Europe isn't one of them and
:35:42. > :35:45.Europe has to be managed by a Labour leader skill fully and evidently
:35:46. > :35:50.that hasn't happened now. How would you see the by-elections in the
:35:51. > :35:55.current political context? Labour should be walking them, it should be
:35:56. > :35:56.a sign of the March of the Labour Party taking on the current
:35:57. > :36:00.Conservative Government. I don't think they raise any questions about
:36:01. > :36:04.Corbyn's leadership because the people who put him in don't think
:36:05. > :36:09.that winning elections matter, you have to remember this will be the
:36:10. > :36:14.mainstream media, it will be our fault why any of those Labour
:36:15. > :36:17.candidates don't win, the thing that is interesting is whether there is
:36:18. > :36:21.is a role for Ukip. The argument after the referendum was Ukip has
:36:22. > :36:27.done its job, it got the referendum, nothing to see here, I remember
:36:28. > :36:33.speaking to put a Nuttall before he was Ukip leader, on the day after
:36:34. > :36:37.the battle and he said this is Year Zero, where Ukip starts now, and
:36:38. > :36:41.this, and this is the interesting thing, does, do we see this one
:36:42. > :36:45.particular party having a role in the future? And I think it is all to
:36:46. > :36:50.play for, they could not not have stood in this seat. They have to win
:36:51. > :36:53.it to be an electoral force. The Labour candidate in Copeland has
:36:54. > :36:57.made the NHS the issue for her in this, that goes into the left-right,
:36:58. > :37:03.are we spending enough, are we not? That will be a test of what you were
:37:04. > :37:06.saying to see if traditional left-right issue, which at the
:37:07. > :37:10.moment would play Labour's way I would suggest, are big enough to
:37:11. > :37:14.overcome all the things you have been talking about and Matthew has
:37:15. > :37:18.been talking about. Maybe at this particular junction they are not,
:37:19. > :37:24.but I don't think any of those issues will go away, and that is why
:37:25. > :37:30.I question whether we are see the end of a historic left-right divide.
:37:31. > :37:33.At the moment with Europe so prominent, clearly these
:37:34. > :37:37.by-elections are unusual. And they will be a test of leadership for
:37:38. > :37:41.Theresa May in the coming months if not at the moment, as they have been
:37:42. > :37:45.in a way that he hasn't risen to, for the Labour leader.
:37:46. > :37:49.We will be leave on BBC One on the night, February 23rd off back of
:37:50. > :37:51.this week, we will bring you the result of both these crucial
:37:52. > :37:55.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:37:56. > :37:58.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:37:59. > :38:01.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.
:38:02. > :38:09.First though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:10. > :38:15.Coming up in the North West: Riding roughshod over rural businesses -
:38:16. > :38:21.why the countryside's not champing at the bit for rate reform.
:38:22. > :38:24.But under starters orders in the studio this week
:38:25. > :38:26.are Lucy Powell, the Labour MP for Manchester Central,
:38:27. > :38:32.and David Rutley, the Conservative for Macclesfield.
:38:33. > :38:44.Another bad week for Jeremy Corbyn. Brexit rebellion, rumours of a
:38:45. > :38:50.leadership contest. How long can it go on? With the country in such flux
:38:51. > :38:53.and the need for an effective opposition, the last thing we need
:38:54. > :38:56.is more speculation about the leadership of the Labour Party. The
:38:57. > :38:58.last thing we need is more navel-gazing. It has been a
:38:59. > :39:04.difficult period but we got to move on and get back to the job of being
:39:05. > :39:14.an effective opposition. Totally unfounded? Angela Rayner and
:39:15. > :39:17.Rebecca's names are being mentioned. Anyone on manoeuvres, you need to
:39:18. > :39:19.stop it, we got so much going on in these the Labour Party to focus on
:39:20. > :39:19.the job. And, David, a minor local
:39:20. > :39:22.rebellion in your party - Antoinette Sandbach backing Labour's
:39:23. > :39:24.defeated amendment to give Parliament a decisive say
:39:25. > :39:34.over the final deal. I think it is absolutely vital that
:39:35. > :39:38.Parliament has a vote on a deal if there is a deal and if there is no
:39:39. > :39:42.deal, we also need a vote. The vote for Brexit was to bring back control
:39:43. > :39:44.to this Parliament and I voted for that democratic decision-making in
:39:45. > :39:52.this Parliament. MPs this week promised a meaningful
:39:53. > :39:59.vote on the final deal but they will have to back it off back which could
:40:00. > :40:02.the North West. If voters were the North West. If voters were
:40:03. > :40:07.looking for the sovereignty of Parliament over Brexit, they haven't
:40:08. > :40:11.got it. Parliament has decided this week it will back Article 50 and now
:40:12. > :40:17.everything is to play for. We need to work on a negotiation with the
:40:18. > :40:24.EU. There are huge opportunities. The Germans wanted rebuttals, the
:40:25. > :40:29.French want to trade with us. Between a rock and a hard place for
:40:30. > :40:33.most people want to support the will most people want to support the will
:40:34. > :40:36.of the British public. Now we need to come forward with the best
:40:37. > :40:42.vote in parliament. Lucy, Labour vote in parliament. Lucy, Labour
:40:43. > :40:45.were accused of rolling over for the Government on this. Should they have
:40:46. > :40:49.put up more resistance? What we had to do this week was give effect to
:40:50. > :40:54.the outcome of the referendum. That's why I and many other MPs who
:40:55. > :40:57.campaigned to remain in the EU voted to trigger Article 50 but that isn't
:40:58. > :41:05.a blank cheque, it doesn't mean we will ball over on anything but what
:41:06. > :41:08.most people in this region and country want to see is for us to
:41:09. > :41:12.work together to get the best outcome and not stand there saying,
:41:13. > :41:16.we told you it would be terrible and actually make that an outcome, we
:41:17. > :41:20.got to get the best possible outcome for the North West for all the
:41:21. > :41:23.people we represent out of something many of us didn't want to see
:41:24. > :41:23.happen, but that's life, that's democracy.
:41:24. > :41:26.Onto health care now, and it's been a week of ups
:41:27. > :41:30.There have been worrying death rates, and a high-profile
:41:31. > :41:31.resignation, but also significant improvements at some previously
:41:32. > :41:33.struggling hospitals, and plans for a state-of-the
:41:34. > :41:44.It's not the place to wear a white coat yet.
:41:45. > :41:48.Before Clatterbridge's new cancer centre can open
:41:49. > :41:51.on this site in Liverpool, local people are being asked to dig
:41:52. > :41:55.deep to help pay for it and famous faces have been helping.
:41:56. > :41:58.Sad subject, really, but it's something that affects us all,
:41:59. > :42:01.whether individually or through a family or friend
:42:02. > :42:03.at some stage in your life and having a facility like this
:42:04. > :42:06.in the heart of Liverpool can only benefit people in the city.
:42:07. > :42:11.Over ?100 million is due to be spent on all 11 floors of hospital,
:42:12. > :42:18.which will be built behind me by around 2019.
:42:19. > :42:21.It seems like a rare good headline for the NHS in a week
:42:22. > :42:23.where there has been a lot of bad news.
:42:24. > :42:27.This has been a week where the pressures facing the NHS
:42:28. > :42:30.in the North West have been laid bare, Royal Blackburn Hospital
:42:31. > :42:34.There are too many people that come. There's only so much that we can do.
:42:35. > :42:39.We need beds and staff. It's like banging your head on a brick wall.
:42:40. > :42:46.Times are desperate. We need more staff and more space.
:42:47. > :42:51.2,000 doctors warned Theresa May of unacceptable safety concerns this
:42:52. > :42:54.week and there were reports of unsafe levels of overcrowding
:42:55. > :43:00.You don't want to be in hospital if you don't need to be.
:43:01. > :43:03.I would far rather have capacity in the community in terms of nursing
:43:04. > :43:14.That's the responsibility of council social care and the man who runs
:43:15. > :43:16.that in Liverpool resigned over funding cuts, warning social care
:43:17. > :43:22.We don't know where we'll be in two years.
:43:23. > :43:26.As it currently stands, it will be difficult for us
:43:27. > :43:29.to get through this year, but I imagine it'll be harder,
:43:30. > :43:43.but I'm doing everything I can to make sure that people take social
:43:44. > :43:49.Back in the NHS, more bad news at the Countess of Chester Hospital,
:43:50. > :43:51.told not to reintroduce neonatal and intensive care because
:43:52. > :43:54.But despite all the shortages, inspectors recorded improvements
:43:55. > :43:56.at Morecambe Bay and ten side, two hospitals in special
:43:57. > :44:01.It has certainly been a challenge for all of us,
:44:02. > :44:03.but it's about the leadership team supporting the staff to deliver.
:44:04. > :44:05.For the politicians over the last week, though,
:44:06. > :44:12.it's been images like this that have been hard for them to avoid.
:44:13. > :44:17.Some insight into the incredible work done at the Royal Blackburn
:44:18. > :44:22.Hospital under incredible pressure. This week, Jeremy Hunt has conceded
:44:23. > :44:25.that waiting times are too long in A but at the same time the Prime
:44:26. > :44:31.Minister has said we don't need more money for social care. That doesn't
:44:32. > :44:34.add up. There's no question that they're not unusual pressures on the
:44:35. > :44:37.NHS at the moment. I've been in hospital for the last two weeks
:44:38. > :44:44.visiting family who have been through A and been cared for very
:44:45. > :44:47.well and Macclesfield Hospital, so we got some great care, we got extra
:44:48. > :44:54.funding going into the NHS and we got extra funding... not enough,
:44:55. > :44:59.though. We put money where the crisis is. It's not just the money,
:45:00. > :45:06.it's what we can do to improve health care and social care. The
:45:07. > :45:09.Liverpool adult social care said he has had enough, I can do this any
:45:10. > :45:17.more because of the impact it has had on people. He says it's got two
:45:18. > :45:21.years of life left. There are pressures but we need to look more
:45:22. > :45:24.innovative ways of doing things. In Macclesfield, we've found within its
:45:25. > :45:28.best bases in the hospital, an extra 29 beds and we've would have more
:45:29. > :45:36.domiciliary care, care at home, working closely with GPs and social
:45:37. > :45:43.so let's get more innovative. It will just be cash alone. Is there
:45:44. > :45:50.enough cash? 500 million pledged isn't enough. Its 10 billion per
:45:51. > :45:53.year going into the NHS. What we're seeing now is the aggregate of a
:45:54. > :45:58.number of Conservative policy is all coming home to roost. It does take a
:45:59. > :46:01.few years for Government policies to have a direct impact on public
:46:02. > :46:06.years of a Conservative Government, years of a Conservative Government,
:46:07. > :46:11.we're now seeing the full force of all of those policies, the cuts to
:46:12. > :46:14.social care, the changes to primary care, the cuts being made to
:46:15. > :46:18.hospitals as well, all of those things are now piling this
:46:19. > :46:23.unbearable pressure on the NHS and my husband is in A Doctor here in
:46:24. > :46:28.the region and that's what he will tell you, that A and hospitals
:46:29. > :46:32.cannot deal with the amount of people coming in who should be being
:46:33. > :46:36.looked after in the community or in social care. David, this bed
:46:37. > :46:41.blocking, we could have predicted when council budgets were slashed.
:46:42. > :46:45.There are examples of the strikers were there fewer delays and
:46:46. > :46:51.discharges in St Helens, for example. We need to look at how much
:46:52. > :46:56.quicker we can integrate care between social care... but Lucy's
:46:57. > :47:01.point that the slicing services has led to a reduction in hospital care.
:47:02. > :47:05.There are challenges but we are putting more money in. Lucy would
:47:06. > :47:09.agree that it's not just about changes that are taking place or the
:47:10. > :47:15.money, there is no increasing and unprecedented demand over the last
:47:16. > :47:18.year and this is about demographics. But those ageing populations and
:47:19. > :47:22.demographic changes have been coming for a very long time, they've now
:47:23. > :47:29.been made a cute by the huge cuts to adult social care, which hasn't been
:47:30. > :47:32.the same everywhere. Some councils, particularly those most deprived
:47:33. > :47:35.like Manchester and Liverpool have seen absolutely enormous cuts to
:47:36. > :47:46.their social care budget. Other authorities less so. in some places
:47:47. > :47:52.that are under an emotional delved -- under intense pressure, there are
:47:53. > :47:55.improvements. Yes there are places where things can be done
:47:56. > :47:59.professionally but let's not hide behind that, this is a profound and
:48:00. > :48:10.deep problem we are facing. The accumulative effect of many
:48:11. > :48:14.different policy decisions that the Conservatives have made. You need
:48:15. > :48:16.more demographics to limit all on the Conservatives. We knew the
:48:17. > :48:19.demographics were coming yet the Government decided to take billions
:48:20. > :48:29.of pounds out of adult social care. It's false economy. We're putting
:48:30. > :48:33.7.6 billion in now. In that, there is 900 million extra to help social
:48:34. > :48:37.care so steps are being taken. Is a bit extra going in in the last year
:48:38. > :48:41.but that on the backdrop of huge cuts over many years which we're now
:48:42. > :48:44.just seeing the impact of commerce of these things are false economies
:48:45. > :48:48.so you have to get early intervention. The money has to go
:48:49. > :48:52.into prevention and early intervention instead of just saying
:48:53. > :48:56.we go to plough more than more money into acute services, which is what
:48:57. > :49:02.has happened, so we could have saved money, actually. There's an
:49:03. > :49:04.opportunity with devolution and seeing integrated care coming
:49:05. > :49:05.together in Manchester, we can learn from that.
:49:06. > :49:08.Rural communities say their way of life is at risk
:49:09. > :49:13.The amount of local tax paid by companies is being recalculated
:49:14. > :49:15.in April for the first time in seven years.
:49:16. > :49:18.And critics reckon towns and cities could benefit
:49:19. > :49:20.at the cost of the countryside, as Mark Edwardson reports
:49:21. > :49:27.from a riding school in Cumbria facing a 60% hike.
:49:28. > :49:36.Ella Wadsworth is a 19-year-old student who's visually impaired.
:49:37. > :49:40.I can't drive legally so coming here and getting on a horse,
:49:41. > :49:43.Ella rides 17-year-old cob Jack three times a week
:49:44. > :49:46.It's one of many rural enterprises facing a business
:49:47. > :49:52.If the Government are trying to encourage people to go out and do
:49:53. > :49:55.sports, how do they expect people like me who are students and have
:49:56. > :50:01.to save money and come and do what we love?
:50:02. > :50:03.So the costs, you think, could become prohibiting?
:50:04. > :50:11.Business rates are the commercial version of council tax.
:50:12. > :50:14.It's claimed rural businesses, which typically occupy more space,
:50:15. > :50:18.are put at an unfair disadvantage by a bricks-and-mortar tax based
:50:19. > :50:24.The rise is from ?183 per stable to ?375.
:50:25. > :50:33.Other facilities at Witherslack hall Farm will push the bill even higher.
:50:34. > :50:40.We are either going to have to pay it and just carry on as we are,
:50:41. > :50:46.but it would mean that we weon't grow as a business.
:50:47. > :50:49.Other possiblities are we will have to put the price of the lessons up.
:50:50. > :50:51.Do you feel like the business is under threat?
:50:52. > :51:00.Riding schools will be joined by livestock markets and kennels
:51:01. > :51:02.and catteries as businesses facing the biggest increases
:51:03. > :51:08.But there will be winners too - oil refineries, cement works,
:51:09. > :51:12.bingo halls and even photo booths are looking at reductions
:51:13. > :51:19.You can easily look at the geographical size
:51:20. > :51:22.of a business and compare that to their turnover and make sure
:51:23. > :51:24.you reduce business rate accordingly, but in the end we're
:51:25. > :51:27.asking the Government to put yet another bit of sellotape
:51:28. > :51:36.And the industry's not taking the increase lying down.
:51:37. > :51:39.Why is it the case this is happening now?
:51:40. > :51:41.Because we don't believe it's appropriate for this
:51:42. > :51:44.level of increase to have happened right now.
:51:45. > :51:47.The Valuation Office Agency says it uses, "a wide range
:51:48. > :51:54.We approach all classes of property fairly and equally."
:51:55. > :51:57.The riding school's got two months before it's officially saddled
:51:58. > :52:04.Also with us is Christian Spence from Greater Manchester Chamber
:52:05. > :52:12.of Commerce, who recently advised MPs on local Government finance.
:52:13. > :52:18.We sat with you, Christian. On the face of it, this looks fed enough,
:52:19. > :52:25.your business can make more money, therefore it pays more tax, that is
:52:26. > :52:30.basically -- basic redistribution of wealth. Not quite, because it is
:52:31. > :52:34.based purely on valuation property itself and that can be affected by
:52:35. > :52:38.wider economic conditions and also improvements the business has made
:52:39. > :52:41.so if you're looking to invest in a property to improve it, even to
:52:42. > :52:47.install plant and machinery to make it more productive, it adds to the
:52:48. > :52:50.value as far as an operational system and then you get taxed on
:52:51. > :52:54.those benefits. that sounds to me like it would not be an incentive
:52:55. > :52:59.for people to improve businesses or the high street because you will get
:53:00. > :53:05.lumped with more tax. This is a tax that gets increased the time and it
:53:06. > :53:07.raises ?29 billion a year. Businesses are used to the Sachs, a
:53:08. > :53:15.like corporation tax, it's been around long time -- used to this
:53:16. > :53:19.tax. There comes a point where you have to have a valuation and there
:53:20. > :53:25.are thresholds in place. For some brutal businesses there are good or
:53:26. > :53:30.great as well, small pubs and petrol stations, small stores and things.
:53:31. > :53:34.But in Suffolk, they will see raises a 152% and they clearly are the
:53:35. > :53:37.victims of their own success and have made it a tourist hub and
:53:38. > :53:44.because they have done that they will be punished. There are
:53:45. > :53:49.challenges around. The value of your property is increasing, but again
:53:50. > :53:53.you can anticipate this stuff. One reform that the Government said it
:53:54. > :53:56.will put in place is not have these rates revaluation is done every six
:53:57. > :54:02.or seven years, we will do them more frequently so it is not a big
:54:03. > :54:06.surprise. is doing it annually less of a shock? It could be. For many
:54:07. > :54:10.small businesses, they would say that business rates are too high and
:54:11. > :54:12.that they are not competitive, especially with the development of
:54:13. > :54:16.so many online businesses who perhaps don't have the same level of
:54:17. > :54:22.business rates as, say, a high-street provider or another
:54:23. > :54:26.service with a high overhead so we do need to look at the context of
:54:27. > :54:32.the overall environment. What do you replace the revenue with if you
:54:33. > :54:35.reduce the rates? You need to look at how you can better adapt that to
:54:36. > :54:40.the modern business environment that we had in. It is a difficult issue,
:54:41. > :54:43.these re-evaluations are always difficult to do so we got to make
:54:44. > :54:46.sure that we got the revenues coming in to provide the sort of services
:54:47. > :54:50.we were just talking about in terms of adult social care and other very
:54:51. > :55:01.important services that local authorities provide, but we got to
:55:02. > :55:07.make sure that they don't diss incentivise -- failed to act as an
:55:08. > :55:12.incentive for businesses. I think there are some important reforms
:55:13. > :55:18.ahead. In the pilot scheme where councils will keep 100% of their
:55:19. > :55:21.business rates, is that a good idea or two places like Greater
:55:22. > :55:24.Manchester stand to lose out? In the last figures, it was only Trafford
:55:25. > :55:29.and Stockport that had a net gain through taxation so why would we
:55:30. > :55:33.want to go through that ordeal? What you've got is a concept that in
:55:34. > :55:37.principle is a really good idea. Businesses have complained for the
:55:38. > :55:40.long term that their connectivity between the business community and
:55:41. > :55:44.local Government has been strained for a very long time and that
:55:45. > :55:48.relationship has not been fruitful, so I think devolving is good in
:55:49. > :55:52.principle. Anything that returns control closer to the places where
:55:53. > :55:56.the money is going to be spent is inherently and in principle a good
:55:57. > :56:00.thing. The challenge is for local authority is by retaining rates, how
:56:01. > :56:06.it will incentivise Government to look after its businesses. The
:56:07. > :56:07.question is can you go more money from it? From local authorities like
:56:08. > :56:13.Manchester and London, it doesn't Manchester and London, it doesn't
:56:14. > :56:17.have a great deal of land to build premises on because it's not about
:56:18. > :56:21.the number of businesses, it's about businesses occupying large floor
:56:22. > :56:25.space. Is that a body that Greater Manchester will lose out on
:56:26. > :56:34.devolution in terms of business trip attention? It depends on business
:56:35. > :56:38.attention so Labour supporters the devolution of business rates but
:56:39. > :56:42.it's got to be set in the context of not further cuts elsewhere so the
:56:43. > :56:46.other grams coming from central Government, if they're going to be
:56:47. > :56:49.cut alongside it, overall the pot of money available to local authorities
:56:50. > :56:53.will continue to diminish and then important services like children's
:56:54. > :56:59.services and adult social care will get cut even further so we have to
:57:00. > :57:05.make sure that those... There are safeguards in place, for example,
:57:06. > :57:09.local authorities like Oldham found a big local employer was moving
:57:10. > :57:15.somewhere else that they would be safeguards in place for that loss of
:57:16. > :57:21.revenue. David, is it fair that Surrey essentially holds the
:57:22. > :57:25.Government to ransom and they say you can keep 100% of business rates
:57:26. > :57:31.worrying about business rates? The worrying about business rates? The
:57:32. > :57:37.conversation there between Surrey and Government is unusual so I'm not
:57:38. > :57:41.sure I follow your point. I don't know the detail on the text
:57:42. > :57:42.messages, but there was no special deal for Surrey, just part of the
:57:43. > :57:47.normal dialogue between businesses normal dialogue between businesses
:57:48. > :57:49.and county councils. one minute you've got a leading Conservative
:57:50. > :57:53.local authority saying they're going local authority saying they're going
:57:54. > :57:59.to put up council tax by 50% to meet the shortfall in social care. It's
:58:00. > :58:05.hitting the airwaves and media, creating unwelcome headlines and
:58:06. > :58:12.next thing you got text messages with special advisers and the call
:58:13. > :58:16.of their 15% hike. they made the decision but I think there are
:58:17. > :58:23.people who suffer with text messages from time to time. Let's not go too
:58:24. > :58:28.far down that track. it's about the substance, not the fact it was
:58:29. > :58:30.leaked, is the fact they have been offered 100% business trip retention
:58:31. > :58:33.which hasn't worked across the board. Is that fair? Those
:58:34. > :58:37.conversations between Government and conversations between Government and
:58:38. > :58:41.Sally are part normal conversation between local Government and
:58:42. > :58:42.businesses. With another school closure
:58:43. > :58:44.and the rest of the week's news, here's Gill Dummigan with 60
:58:45. > :58:50.Seconds. Standing firm - anti-fracking
:58:51. > :58:53.protesters forced a concrete company to pull out of supplying
:58:54. > :58:56.a site in Lancashire. Cuadrilla - which is
:58:57. > :58:57.drilling for shale gas - We will not be intimidated,
:58:58. > :59:06.we will not be bullied. A second university technical
:59:07. > :59:07.college is to close. Oldham's - for pupils over 14 - has
:59:08. > :59:12.failed to attract enough of them. Burnley's UTC has
:59:13. > :59:18.already shut up shop. ID checks could be increased
:59:19. > :59:21.for travellers to and The Manx Government
:59:22. > :59:23.is considering extending checks for air passengers
:59:24. > :59:26.to those by ferry. Whosoever shall call
:59:27. > :59:30.upon the name of the Lord... Cheshire East Council
:59:31. > :59:33.stood accused of lacking brotherly love after refusing
:59:34. > :59:38.the Exclusive Brethren Christian Group permission
:59:39. > :59:39.to build a meeting hall. And the leader of St Helens Council
:59:40. > :59:42.is back in business. Barrie Grunewald has
:59:43. > :59:44.recovered after he was put in a medically induced coma
:59:45. > :00:01.in Gran Canaria in October. the closure of another university
:00:02. > :00:04.technical college, David, is the idea pointless? I think there are
:00:05. > :00:09.real opportunities within them but real opportunities within them but
:00:10. > :00:15.clearly they need to learn more about how to make them work
:00:16. > :00:18.effectively but we need to focus on technical colleges and education
:00:19. > :00:22.more broadly. I think it's an area where we have failed as a nation for
:00:23. > :00:28.decades and we need to put more focus on that, so we will learn from
:00:29. > :00:32.university technical colleges. You like we've said to the Government
:00:33. > :00:35.all along that the starting age of 14 was structurally never going to
:00:36. > :00:38.work because parents and children don't want to swap schools halfway
:00:39. > :00:44.through school life and unfortunately we've seen millions of
:00:45. > :00:48.pounds going into several university technical colleges across the region
:00:49. > :00:51.is now closed so I think let's learn the lessons, but this is a heavy
:00:52. > :00:55.price to pay and a lot of money that has gone wasted for something that
:00:56. > :00:57.we all told the Government beforehand was going to be difficult
:00:58. > :00:57.to make work. My thanks to Lucy Powell
:00:58. > :01:01.and David Rutley. I'll see you again the week
:01:02. > :01:02.after next, but for now I'll hand After the excitement and late nights
:01:03. > :01:13.in the Commons last week, MPs are having a little break this
:01:14. > :01:16.week as we head into But there's still plenty
:01:17. > :01:20.in the diary in the near future - let's just remind ourselves of some
:01:21. > :01:34.key upcoming dates. There they are. We have the two
:01:35. > :01:38.by-elections on February 23rd. The budget is 8th March. That will be
:01:39. > :01:40.the last spring budget under this Government because it moves to the
:01:41. > :01:59.autumn. That round of French elections
:02:00. > :02:04.narrows the candidates, probably about eight or nine, down to two,
:02:05. > :02:10.the two who come first and second, then go into a play off round on May
:02:11. > :02:16.7th. That will determine the next President. Steve, listening to
:02:17. > :02:20.Oliver Letwin and to the Labour leader in the House of Lords, is
:02:21. > :02:25.there any way you think that end of March deadline for Mrs May could be
:02:26. > :02:29.in jeopardy? No, I don't. Andrew Smith couldn't have been clearer
:02:30. > :02:33.with you they would do nothing to block not just Article 50 but that
:02:34. > :02:39.timetable, so I would be surprised if they don't make it. Given her,
:02:40. > :02:45.Theresa May's explicit determination to do so, not to do so would have
:02:46. > :02:50.become a problem for her, I think one way or another... No before this
:02:51. > :02:53.vote last week there was a vote nor the deadline, to agree the deadline
:02:54. > :02:58.by all sides. Plain sailing do you think? There is no serious
:02:59. > :03:01.Parliamentary resistance and it would be a personal embarrassment, I
:03:02. > :03:05.think for the Prime Minister to name the the end of March as the deadline
:03:06. > :03:10.and to miss it, unless she has a good excuse. I I reckon it will
:03:11. > :03:14.change the atmosphere of politics for the next two years, as soon as
:03:15. > :03:18.the negotiations begin, people in our profession will hunt for any
:03:19. > :03:21.detail and inside information we can find, thing also be leaked, I think
:03:22. > :03:26.from the European side from time to time, it will dominate the headlines
:03:27. > :03:31.for a solid two years and change politics. Let me just raise a
:03:32. > :03:36.possible, a dark cloud. No bigger than man's hand, that can complicate
:03:37. > :03:41.the timetable, because the Royal Assent on the current timetable has
:03:42. > :03:45.to come round the 13th. I would suggest that the Prime Minister
:03:46. > :03:51.can't trigger that until she does get the Royal Assent. If there is a
:03:52. > :03:55.bit of ping-pong that could delay that by receive day, the last thing
:03:56. > :04:01.the Europeans would want, they have another big meeting at the end of
:04:02. > :04:06.March which is the 60th anniversary of the Treaty of Rome. They don't
:04:07. > :04:12.want Article 50 to land on the table... It would infuriate
:04:13. > :04:16.everybody. My guess is she will have done it by then, this is between the
:04:17. > :04:21.Commons and the Lords, I mean Andrew Smith couldn't have been clearer,
:04:22. > :04:28.that they might send something back but they didn't expect a kind of a
:04:29. > :04:33.long play over this, so. The Liberal Democrats, they are almost an
:04:34. > :04:38.irrelevance in the Commons but not the Lords, they feel differently.
:04:39. > :04:42.Now, we don't know yet what the European Union negotiating position
:04:43. > :04:44.is going to be, we don't know because there are several crucial
:04:45. > :04:49.elections taking place, the Dutch taking place in March and then the
:04:50. > :04:54.one we put up, the French, and, at the moment, the French one is, it
:04:55. > :05:00.seems like it is coming down, to a play-off in the second round between
:05:01. > :05:07.Madame Le Pen who could come first in the first round and this Blairite
:05:08. > :05:12.figure, independent, centre-leftish Mr Macron, he may well get through
:05:13. > :05:17.and that, and the outcome of that will be an important determine napt
:05:18. > :05:22.on our negotiations. -- determinant. You o couldn't have two more
:05:23. > :05:26.different candidate, you have a national a front candidate and on
:05:27. > :05:33.the other hand the closest thing France could have you to a liberal
:05:34. > :05:37.President. With a small l. A reformist liberal President. It
:05:38. > :05:45.would be the most French thing in the world to elect someone who while
:05:46. > :05:50.the rest of the world is elected elitist, to elect someone who is the
:05:51. > :05:57.son of a teacher, who has liberal views, is a member of the French
:05:58. > :06:05.elite. It would be a thing for them to elect a man like that which I why
:06:06. > :06:10.I see them doing it. If it is Le Pen, Brexit becomes a minor
:06:11. > :06:14.sideshow, if it is Le Pen, the future of the European Union is?
:06:15. > :06:21.Danger, regardless of whether we are were in or out. I suggest if it is
:06:22. > :06:25.Mr Macron that presents some problems. He doesn't have his own
:06:26. > :06:29.party. He won't have a majority in the French assembly, he is untried
:06:30. > :06:34.and untested. He wants to do a number of things that will be
:06:35. > :06:41.unpopular which is why a number of people close to Mrs Le Pen tell me
:06:42. > :06:50.that she has her eye on 2022. She thinks lit go to hell in a hand
:06:51. > :06:55.basket under Mr Macron. He hasn't got the experience. What I find
:06:56. > :06:59.fascinating. It is not just all to play for in France, it is the fact
:07:00. > :07:05.what happens in France and Germany, not so much Holland I think but
:07:06. > :07:14.Germany later on in the year, how much it impacts what we are going to
:07:15. > :07:22.get. How much which ex #i78 panting on them. And at the time we are
:07:23. > :07:25.trying to, withdrawing ourself from European politics it is fascinating
:07:26. > :07:31.how much it will affect us. You see what Matthew was talking about
:07:32. > :07:34.earlier in the show, that what we do know, almost for sure, is that the
:07:35. > :07:39.socialist candidate will not get through to the second round. He
:07:40. > :07:43.could come firth but the centre-right candidate. If we were
:07:44. > :07:47.discussing that monthing a we would say it between teen the centre-right
:07:48. > :07:53.and the national fronts. We are to saying that. Matthew good win who
:07:54. > :07:57.spent a time in France isn't sure Le Pen will get into the second round,
:07:58. > :08:05.which is interesting. It is, I mean, it is going to be as important for
:08:06. > :08:08.the future of the European Union, as in retrospect the British 2015
:08:09. > :08:11.general election was, if Labour had got in there would have been no
:08:12. > :08:17.referendum. That referendum has transformed the European Union
:08:18. > :08:21.because we are leaving and the French election is significant. We
:08:22. > :08:28.will be live from Paris on April 23rd on the day France goings to the
:08:29. > :08:31.first round of polls. Tom Watson, he was on The Andrew Marr Show earlier
:08:32. > :08:36.today, was asked about Mr Corbyn, this is what he had to say.
:08:37. > :08:39.We had a damaging second leadership election, so we've got
:08:40. > :08:43.The polls aren't great for us, but I'm determined now we've got
:08:44. > :08:46.the leadership settled for this parliament, that we can focus
:08:47. > :08:48.on developing a very positive clear message to the British people
:08:49. > :09:04.So Julia, I don't know who are you are giggling. I find it untenable
:09:05. > :09:09.that, he is a very good media performer and he comes on and he is
:09:10. > :09:12.sitting there so well, you know, things are bad but don't worry we
:09:13. > :09:17.are looking at what we can do to win 2020. The idea that Tony Blair and
:09:18. > :09:22.Gordon Brown were sitting in their offices or on TV screens at this
:09:23. > :09:26.time in the electoral cycle thinking well I wonder if we can come up with
:09:27. > :09:34.a policy the British people might like. It is a nonsense, this is
:09:35. > :09:42.Tuesday night book zlufb. I am going to ask you the question I was going
:09:43. > :09:48.to before. I would suggest that he the right. The deputy Labour leader
:09:49. > :09:52.Tom Watson is violent the leadership is settled, with one caveat, unless
:09:53. > :09:58.the Corbynistas themselves to decide to move on Mr Corbyn, if the left of
:09:59. > :10:03.the Labour Party decides then it is not settled. Settled. If that
:10:04. > :10:07.doesn't happen that is That would be the worst situation if you are a
:10:08. > :10:13.Labour moderate. The Corbynistas would be saying the problem is no
:10:14. > :10:19.Corbynism, it is Corbyn himself, if we a younger person leading the
:10:20. > :10:22.process we can win the next general election, which means you have
:10:23. > :10:30.another itration of this, another five year experiment. And that is
:10:31. > :10:35.worst of all. If you are a Labour moderate, what you want is Jeremy
:10:36. > :10:39.Corbyn contest the next general election, possibly loses badly and
:10:40. > :10:44.then a Labour not moderate runs for the leadership saying we have tried
:10:45. > :10:48.your way, the worst would be Corbyn going, and a younger seven version
:10:49. > :10:54.of him trying and the experiment being extended. I see no easy way
:10:55. > :10:59.out of this. That is why he radiated the enthusiasm of someone in a
:11:00. > :11:05.hostage video in that interview. Maybe he has the Stockholm Syndrome
:11:06. > :11:09.now. The Labour moderates have had their day in the sun, two days in
:11:10. > :11:14.the sun and they lost. I suggest they are not going to try for the
:11:15. > :11:20.hat-trick again. Is there any indication that on the more Corbyn
:11:21. > :11:25.wing of the Labour Party, there is now doubts about their man. Yes,
:11:26. > :11:31.just to translate Tom Watson, what he meant was I Tom Watson am not
:11:32. > :11:36.going to get involved in another attempted coup. I tried it and it
:11:37. > :11:41.was a catastrophe. That is question enhe says it is set selled. It is
:11:42. > :11:47.because there is speculation on a daily basis. I disagree, Julia said
:11:48. > :11:52.I think this lot don't care about winning, I think they do. If the
:11:53. > :11:57.current position continue, one of two things will happen. Either
:11:58. > :12:02.Jeremy Corbyn will decide himself will decide he doesn't want to carry
:12:03. > :12:07.on. He half enjoys I it and half hates it. Finds it a strain. If that
:12:08. > :12:15.doesn't happen there will be some people round him who will say, look,
:12:16. > :12:19.this isn't working. There is another three-and-a-half years. There is a
:12:20. > :12:24.long way to go. I can't see it lasting in this way with politics in
:12:25. > :12:30.a state of flux, Tories will be under pressure in the coming two
:12:31. > :12:34.years, to have opinion polls at this level, I think is unsustainable.
:12:35. > :12:38.Final thought from you.? Yes, the idea it St another three-and-a-half
:12:39. > :12:43.years is just madness, but the people we are putting up at
:12:44. > :12:48.replacement for Jeremy Corbyn, and they have been focus grouping them.
:12:49. > :12:50.Most members wouldn't know who most of people were let alone most of the
:12:51. > :12:59.public. Angela rain? They are not
:13:00. > :13:04.overwhelmed with leadership potential at the moment. Very
:13:05. > :13:06.diplomatically put. Neither are the Tories, but they happened to have
:13:07. > :13:10.one at the moment. All right. That is it.
:13:11. > :13:13.Now, there's no Daily or Sunday Politics for the next week
:13:14. > :13:17.But the Daily Politics will be back on Monday 20th February and I'll be
:13:18. > :13:21.back here with the Sunday Politics on the 26th.
:13:22. > :13:23.Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics...
:13:24. > :14:05.Just back from a very long shift at work...
:14:06. > :14:11.The staff are losing - they're just giving in.
:14:12. > :14:17.Panorama goes undercover to reveal the real cost