:00:42. > :00:47.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:48. > :00:48.Theresa May still has plenty on her plate,
:00:49. > :00:50.not least a battle over Brexit in the Lords.
:00:51. > :00:52.But after Thursday's by-election win in Copeland,
:00:53. > :00:53.the Prime Minister looks stronger than ever.
:00:54. > :00:56.Jeremy Corbyn's Labour saw off Ukip in this week's other by-election,
:00:57. > :00:59.but losing to the Tories in a heartland seat leaves the party
:01:00. > :01:09.The leader of Scottish Labour joins me live.
:01:10. > :01:14.You look at what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden!
:01:15. > :01:17.And Donald Trump may have been mocked for talking about the impact
:01:18. > :01:20.of migration on Sweden, but after riots in Stockholm this
:01:21. > :01:23.Should pension pots be paying for homes?
:01:24. > :01:24.Plus, a political storm in Lancashire -
:01:25. > :01:29.has party politics blown away their devolution deal?
:01:30. > :01:32.In London, will the rise in council tax in all but four local
:01:33. > :01:39.authorities be enough to alleviate the crisis in social care?
:01:40. > :01:42.And joining me for all of that, three journalists who I'm pleased
:01:43. > :01:50.to say have so far not been banned from the White House.
:01:51. > :01:54.I've tried banning them from this show repeatedly,
:01:55. > :01:57.but somehow they just keep getting past BBC security - it's Sam Coates,
:01:58. > :02:07.We have had two crucial by-elections, the results last
:02:08. > :02:12.Thursday night. It's now Sunday morning, where do they believe
:02:13. > :02:16.British politics? I think it leaves British politics looking as if it
:02:17. > :02:20.may go ahead without Ukip is a strong and robust force. It is
:02:21. > :02:26.difficult to see from where we are now how Ukip rebuilds into a
:02:27. > :02:31.credible vote winning operation. I think it looks unprofessional, the
:02:32. > :02:35.campaign they fought in Stoke was clearly winnable because the margin
:02:36. > :02:39.with which Labour held onto that seat was not an impressive one but
:02:40. > :02:43.they put forward arguably the wrong candidate, it was messy and it's
:02:44. > :02:47.hard to see where they go from here, particularly with the money problems
:02:48. > :02:53.they have and even Nigel Farage saying he's fed up of the party. If
:02:54. > :02:59.Isabel is right, if Ukip is no longer a major factor, you look at
:03:00. > :03:04.the state of Labour and the Lib Dems coming from a long way behind
:03:05. > :03:09.despite their local government by-election successes, Tories never
:03:10. > :03:13.more dominant. I think Theresa May is in a fascinating situation. She's
:03:14. > :03:19.the most powerful Prime Minister of modern times for now because she
:03:20. > :03:23.faces no confident, formidable opposition. Unlike Margaret Thatcher
:03:24. > :03:28.who in the 1980s, although she won landslides in the end, often looked
:03:29. > :03:34.like she was in trouble. She was inferred quite often in the build-up
:03:35. > :03:41.to the election. David Owen, Roy Jenkins, Shirley Williams. And quite
:03:42. > :03:46.often she was worried. At the moment Theresa May faces no formidable UK
:03:47. > :03:50.opposition. However, she is both strong and fragile because her
:03:51. > :03:54.agenda is Brexit, which I still think many have not got to grips
:03:55. > :03:59.with in terms of how complex and training and difficult it will be
:04:00. > :04:05.for her. Thatcher faced no equivalent to Brexit so she is both
:04:06. > :04:09.strong, formidably strong because of the wider UK political context, and
:04:10. > :04:13.very fragile. It is just when you think you have never been more
:04:14. > :04:18.dominant you are actually at the most dangerous, what can possibly go
:04:19. > :04:21.wrong? I think that the money of her MPs they haven't begun to think
:04:22. > :04:27.through the practicalities of Brexit and she does have a working majority
:04:28. > :04:30.of about 17 in the House of Commons so at any point she could be put
:04:31. > :04:34.under pressure from really opposition these days is done by the
:04:35. > :04:41.two wins inside the Conservative Party, either the 15 Europhiles or
:04:42. > :04:43.the bigger group of about 60 Brexiteers who have continued to
:04:44. > :04:48.operate as a united and disciplined force within the Conservative Party
:04:49. > :04:52.to get their agenda on the table. Either of those wings could be
:04:53. > :04:56.disappointed at any point in the next three and a half years and that
:04:57. > :05:02.would put her under pressure. I wouldn't completely rule out Ukip
:05:03. > :05:06.coming back. The reason Ukip lost in Stoke I think it's because at the
:05:07. > :05:12.moment Theresa May is delivering pretty much everything Ukip figures
:05:13. > :05:15.might want to see. We might find the phrase Brexit means Brexit quite
:05:16. > :05:18.anodyne but I think she is convincing people she will press
:05:19. > :05:25.ahead with their agenda and deliver the leave vote that people buy a
:05:26. > :05:29.slim majority voted for. Should that change, should there be talk of
:05:30. > :05:33.transition periods, shut the migration settlement not make people
:05:34. > :05:37.happy, then I think Ukip risks charging back up the centre ground
:05:38. > :05:42.and causing more problems in future. That could be a two year gap in
:05:43. > :05:45.which Ukip would have to survive. As I said, Ukip is on our agenda for
:05:46. > :05:46.today. Thursday was a big night
:05:47. > :05:48.for political obsessives like us, with not one but two
:05:49. > :05:53.significant by-elections, Ellie braved the wind and rain
:05:54. > :06:00.to bring you this report. The clouds had gathered,
:06:01. > :06:05.the winds blew at gale force. Was a change in the air, or just
:06:06. > :06:10.a weather system called Doris? Voters in Stoke-on-Trent
:06:11. > :06:13.were about to find out. It's here, a sports hall
:06:14. > :06:17.on a Thursday night that the country's media reckon
:06:18. > :06:23.is the true eye of the storm. Would Labour suffer a lightning
:06:24. > :06:25.strike to its very heart, or would the Ukip threat proved
:06:26. > :06:28.to be a damp squib? Everybody seems to think the result
:06:29. > :06:31.in Stoke-on-Trent would be close, just as they did 150-odd miles away
:06:32. > :06:34.in Copeland, where the Tories are counting on stealing another
:06:35. > :06:39.Labour heartland seat. Areas of high pressure in both
:06:40. > :06:47.places, and some strange sights. We knew this wasn't a normal
:06:48. > :06:49.by-election, and to prove it there is the rapper,
:06:50. > :06:51.Professor Green. Chart-toppers aside,
:06:52. > :06:54.winner of Stoke-on-Trent hit parade was announced first,
:06:55. > :06:57.where everyone was so excited the candidates didn't even make it
:06:58. > :07:01.onto the stage for the result. And I do hereby declare
:07:02. > :07:04.that the said Gareth Snell Nigel Farage has said that victory
:07:05. > :07:12.here in Stoke-on-Trent But Ukip's newish leader
:07:13. > :07:18.played down the defeat, insisting his party's
:07:19. > :07:22.time would come. Are you going to stand again
:07:23. > :07:28.as an MP or has this No doubt I will stand again,
:07:29. > :07:31.don't worry about that. The politics of hope beat
:07:32. > :07:40.the politics of fear. I think Ukip are the ones this
:07:41. > :07:43.weekend who have got But a few minutes later,
:07:44. > :07:48.it turned out Labour had Harrison, Trudy Lynn,
:07:49. > :07:52.the Conservative Party That was more than 2,000
:07:53. > :08:03.votes ahead of Labour. What has happened here tonight
:08:04. > :08:08.is a truly historic event. Labour were disappointed,
:08:09. > :08:09.but determined to be optimistic At a point when we're 15 to 18
:08:10. > :08:21.points behind in the polls... The Conservatives within 2000 votes
:08:22. > :08:25.I think is an incredible The morning after the night
:08:26. > :08:30.before, the losing parties were licking their wounds
:08:31. > :08:34.and their lips over breakfast. For years and years,
:08:35. > :08:37.Ukip was Nigel Farage, That has now changed,
:08:38. > :08:44.that era has gone. It's a new era, it is
:08:45. > :08:46.a second age for us. So that needs to be
:08:47. > :08:51.more fully embedded, it needs to be more defined,
:08:52. > :08:54.you know, and that will We have to continue to improve
:08:55. > :09:03.in seats where we have stood. As we have done here,
:09:04. > :09:05.we've improved on our 2015 result, that's what important,
:09:06. > :09:08.is that we are taking steps Can I be the first to come
:09:09. > :09:13.here today to congratulate you on being elected the new MP
:09:14. > :09:15.for Stoke on Trent Central. Jeremy Corbyn has just arrived
:09:16. > :09:19.in Stoke to welcome his newest MP. Not sure he's going to
:09:20. > :09:24.Copeland later though. Earlier in the day, the Labour
:09:25. > :09:27.leader had made clear he'd considered and discounted some
:09:28. > :09:29.theories about the party's Since you found out that you'd lost
:09:30. > :09:35.a seat to a governing party for the first time
:09:36. > :09:39.since the Falklands War, have you at any point this morning
:09:40. > :09:42.looked in the mirror and asked yourself this question -
:09:43. > :09:47.could the problem actually be me? In the end it was the Conservatives
:09:48. > :09:54.who came out on top. No governing party has made
:09:55. > :09:57.a gain at a by-election With the self-styled people's army
:09:58. > :10:03.of Ukip halted in Stoke, and Labour's wash-out
:10:04. > :10:07.here in Copeland... There's little chance of rain
:10:08. > :10:19.on Theresa May's parade. In the wake of that loss in
:10:20. > :10:22.Copeland, the Scottish Labour Party has been meeting for its spring
:10:23. > :10:24.conference in the Yesterday, deputy leader Tom Watson
:10:25. > :10:29.warned delegates that unless Labour took the by-election defeat
:10:30. > :10:31.seriously, the party's devastation in Scotland could be repeated
:10:32. > :10:34.south of the border. Well, I'm joined now
:10:35. > :10:50.by the leader of Scottish Labour, Even after your party had lost
:10:51. > :10:53.Copeland to the Tories and with Labour now trailing 16 points in the
:10:54. > :10:58.UK polls, you claim to have every faith that Jeremy Corbyn would
:10:59. > :11:06.absolutely win the general election. What evidence can you bring to
:11:07. > :11:08.support that? There is no doubt the result in Copeland was disappointing
:11:09. > :11:12.for the Labour Party and I think it's a collective feeling for
:11:13. > :11:15.everyone within the Labour Party and I want to do what I can to turn
:11:16. > :11:19.around the fortunes of our party. That's what I've committed to do
:11:20. > :11:25.while I have been the Scottish Labour leader. This two years ago we
:11:26. > :11:29.were down the mines so to speak in terms of losing the faith of working
:11:30. > :11:33.class communities across the country, but we listened very hard
:11:34. > :11:37.to the message voters are sending and responded to it. That's what I'm
:11:38. > :11:43.committed to doing in Scotland and that's what Jeremy Corbyn is
:11:44. > :11:49.committed to doing UK wide. The latest polls put Labour at 14% in
:11:50. > :11:55.Scotland, the Tories at ten points ahead of you in Scotland, even
:11:56. > :12:00.Theresa May is more popular than Jeremy Corbyn in Scotland. So I will
:12:01. > :12:05.try again - why are you so sure Jeremy Corbyn could win a general
:12:06. > :12:08.election? What I said when you are talking about Scotland is that I'm
:12:09. > :12:13.the leader of the Scottish Labour Party and I take responsibility for
:12:14. > :12:15.our policies here. Voters said very clearly after the Scottish
:12:16. > :12:19.Parliament election that they didn't have a clear enough sense of what we
:12:20. > :12:23.stood for so I have been advocating a very strong anti-austerity
:12:24. > :12:27.platform, coming up with ideas of how we can oppose the cuts and
:12:28. > :12:31.invest in our future. That is something Jeremy Corbyn also
:12:32. > :12:38.supports but I've also made it clear this weekend that we are opposed to
:12:39. > :12:41.a second independence referendum. I want to bring Scotland back together
:12:42. > :12:46.by focusing on the future and that's why I have been speaking about the
:12:47. > :12:49.federal solution for the UK. I know that Jeremy Corbyn shares that
:12:50. > :12:53.ambition because he is backing the plans for a people's Constitutional
:12:54. > :13:01.Convention. Yes, these are difficult times for the Scottish Labour Party
:13:02. > :13:06.and UK family, but I have a plan in place to turn things around. It will
:13:07. > :13:11.take time though. I'm still not sure why you are so sure the Labour party
:13:12. > :13:16.can win but let me come onto your plan. You want a UK wide
:13:17. > :13:22.Constitutional Convention and that lead to a new Federalist settlement.
:13:23. > :13:28.Is it the policy of the Labour Shadow Cabinet in Westminster to
:13:29. > :13:32.carve England into federal regions? What we support at a UK wide level
:13:33. > :13:36.is the people's constitutional convention. I have been careful to
:13:37. > :13:39.prescribe what I think is in the best interests of Scotland but not
:13:40. > :13:45.to dictate to other parts of the UK what is good for them, that's the
:13:46. > :13:49.point of the people's constitutional convention. You heard Tom Watson say
:13:50. > :13:53.there has to be a UK wide conversation about power, who has it
:13:54. > :13:57.and how it is exercised across England. England hasn't been part of
:13:58. > :14:02.this devolution story over the last 20 years, it is something that
:14:03. > :14:07.happened between Scotland and London or Wales and London. No wonder
:14:08. > :14:09.people in England feel disenfranchised from that. What
:14:10. > :14:16.evidence can you bring to show there is any appetite in England for an
:14:17. > :14:20.English federal solution to England, to carve England into federal
:14:21. > :14:24.regions? Have you spoken to John Prescott about this? He might tell
:14:25. > :14:29.you some of the difficulties. There's not even a debate about that
:14:30. > :14:34.here, Kezia Dugdale, it is fantasy. I speak to John Prescott regularly.
:14:35. > :14:38.What there is a debate about is the idea the world is changing so fast
:14:39. > :14:41.that globalisation is taking jobs away from communities in the
:14:42. > :14:46.north-east, that many working class communities feel left behind, that
:14:47. > :14:49.Westminster feels very far away and the politicians within it feel
:14:50. > :14:53.remote in part of the establishment. People are fed up with power being
:14:54. > :14:56.exercised somewhere else, that's where I think federalism comes in
:14:57. > :15:00.because it's about bringing power closer to people and in many ways
:15:01. > :15:09.it's forced on us because of Brexit. We know the United Kingdom is
:15:10. > :15:11.leaving the European Union so we have to talk about the repatriation
:15:12. > :15:14.of those powers from Brussels to Britain. I want many of those powers
:15:15. > :15:17.to go to the Scottish parliament but where should they go in the English
:15:18. > :15:21.context? It is not as things currently stand the policy of the
:15:22. > :15:22.English Labour Party to carve England into federal regions,
:15:23. > :15:31.correct? It is absolutely the policy of the
:15:32. > :15:36.UK Labour Party to support the people's Constitutional convention
:15:37. > :15:40.to examining these questions. I think it is really important. You're
:15:41. > :15:44.promising the Scottish people a federal solution, and you have not
:15:45. > :15:49.even squared your own party for a federal solution in England. That is
:15:50. > :15:53.not true. The UK Labour Party is united on this. I am going to
:15:54. > :15:58.Cardiff next month to meet with Carwyn Jones and various leaders.
:15:59. > :16:02.United on a federal solution? You know as well as I know it is not
:16:03. > :16:06.united on a federal solution. We will have a conversation about power
:16:07. > :16:30.in this country. It is not united on that
:16:31. > :16:34.issue? This is the direction of travel. It is what you heard
:16:35. > :16:36.yesterday from Sadiq Khan, from Tom Watson, when you hear from people
:16:37. > :16:38.like Nick Forbes who lead Newcastle City Council and Labour's Local
:16:39. > :16:40.Government Association. There is an appetite for talking about power.
:16:41. > :16:43.Talking is one thing. We need to have this conversation across the
:16:44. > :16:45.whole of the United Kingdom, to have a reformed United Kingdom. It is a
:16:46. > :16:47.conversation you're offering Scotland, not the policy. Let's come
:16:48. > :16:50.onto the labour made of London. He was in power for your conference. He
:16:51. > :16:52.wrote in the record yesterday, there is no difference between Scottish
:16:53. > :16:56.nationalism and racism. Would you like this opportunity to distance
:16:57. > :17:00.yourself from that absurd claim? I think that Sadiq Khan was very clear
:17:01. > :17:05.yesterday that he was not accusing the SNP of racism. What he was
:17:06. > :17:09.saying clearly is that nationalism by its very nature divides people
:17:10. > :17:14.and communities. That is what I said in my speech yesterday. I am fed up
:17:15. > :17:18.living in a divided and fractured country and society. Our politics is
:17:19. > :17:24.forcing is constantly to pick sides, whether you're a no, leave a remain,
:17:25. > :17:27.it brings out the worst in our politicians and politics. All the
:17:28. > :17:32.consensus we find in the grey areas is lost. That is why am standing
:17:33. > :17:46.under a banner that together we are stronger. We have to come up with
:17:47. > :17:51.ideas and focus on the future. That is why I agree with Sadiq Khan. He
:17:52. > :17:53.said quite clearly in the Daily Record yesterday, and that the last
:17:54. > :17:56.minute he adapted his speech to your conference yesterday, to try and
:17:57. > :17:58.reduce the impact, that there was no difference between Scottish
:17:59. > :18:02.nationalism and racism. Your colleague, and Sarwar, said that
:18:03. > :18:06.even after he had tried to introduce the caveats, all forms of
:18:07. > :18:14.nationalism rely on creating eyes and them. Let's call it for what it
:18:15. > :18:18.is. So you are implying that the Scottish Nationalists are racist.
:18:19. > :18:22.Would you care to distance yourself from that absurd claim? I utterly
:18:23. > :18:28.refute that that is what Sadiq Khan said. I would never suggest that the
:18:29. > :18:33.SNP are an inherently racist party. That does is a disservice. He did
:18:34. > :18:37.not see it. What he did say, however, is that nationalism is
:18:38. > :18:42.divisive. You know that better than anyone. I see your Twitter account.
:18:43. > :18:47.Regularly your attack for the job you do as a journalist. Politics in
:18:48. > :18:53.Scotland is divided on. I do not want to revisit that independence
:18:54. > :18:55.question again for that reason. As leader of the Labour Party, I want
:18:56. > :19:01.to bring our country back together, appeal to people who voted yes and
:19:02. > :19:05.no. That banner, together we are stronger, that is where the answers
:19:06. > :19:10.lie in defaulters can be found. If in response to the Mayor of London,
:19:11. > :19:14.your colleague says, let's call it out for what it is, what is he
:19:15. > :19:22.referring to if he is not implying that national symbol is racist? --
:19:23. > :19:27.and that nationalism is racist? He is saying that it leads to divisive
:19:28. > :19:30.politics. The Labour Party has always advocated that together we
:19:31. > :19:35.are stronger. Saying something is divisive is very different from
:19:36. > :19:39.saying something is racist. That is what the Mayor of London said. That
:19:40. > :19:44.is what your colleague was referring to. He did not. You would really
:19:45. > :19:49.struggle to quote that from the Mayor of London. He talked about
:19:50. > :19:55.being divided by race. What does that mean? I think he was very clear
:19:56. > :19:59.that he was talking about divided politics. There is an appetite the
:20:00. > :20:04.length and breadth of the country to end that divisive politics. That is
:20:05. > :20:08.what I stand for, focusing on the future, bringing people back
:20:09. > :20:12.together, concentrating on what the economy might look like in 20 years'
:20:13. > :20:13.time in coming up with ideas to tackle it today. Thank you for
:20:14. > :20:15.joining us. Thursday's win for Labour
:20:16. > :20:17.in Stoke-on-Trent Central gave some relief to Jeremy Corbyn,
:20:18. > :20:19.but for Ukip leader and defeated Stoke candidate Paul Nuttall
:20:20. > :20:22.there were no consolation prizes. I'm joined now by Mr Nuttall's
:20:23. > :20:32.principal political Welcome to the programme. Good
:20:33. > :20:36.morning. How long will Paul Nuttall survivors Ukip leader, days, weeks,
:20:37. > :20:42.months? You are in danger of not seeing the wood for the trees. Ukip
:20:43. > :20:46.was formed in 1993 with the express purpose, much mocked, of getting
:20:47. > :20:50.Britain out of the European Union. Under the brilliant leadership of
:20:51. > :20:54.Nigel Farage, we were crucial in forcing a vacuous Prime Minister to
:20:55. > :21:00.make a referendum promise he did not want to give. With our friends in
:21:01. > :21:06.Fort leave and other organisations. Mac we know that. Get to the answer.
:21:07. > :21:11.We helped to win that referendum. The iteration of Ukip at the moment
:21:12. > :21:16.that we're in, the primary purpose, we are the guard dog of Brexit.
:21:17. > :21:21.Viewed through that prism, the Stoke by-election was a brilliant success.
:21:22. > :21:26.A brilliant success? We had the Tory candidate that had pumped out
:21:27. > :21:30.publicity for Remain, for Cameron Bradley, preaching the gospel of
:21:31. > :21:35.Brexit. We had a Labour candidate and we know what he really felt
:21:36. > :21:37.about Brexit, preaching the Gospel according to Brexit. You lost. Well
:21:38. > :21:54.the by-election was going on, we had the Labour Party in the House of
:21:55. > :21:56.Commons pass the idea of trickling Article 50 by a landslide. Are
:21:57. > :21:58.passionate thing, the thing that 35,000 Ukip members care about the
:21:59. > :22:01.most, it is an extraordinary achievement. I am very proud. What
:22:02. > :22:03.would you have described as victory as? If we could have got Paul
:22:04. > :22:07.Nuttall into the House of Commons, that would have been a fantastic
:22:08. > :22:13.cherry on the top. Losing was an extraordinary achievement? Many Ukip
:22:14. > :22:19.supporters the Stoke was winnable, but Paul Nuttall's campaign was
:22:20. > :22:26.marred by controversy, Tory voters refuse to vote tactically for Ukip
:22:27. > :22:30.to beat Labour, his campaign, Mr Nuttall is to blame for not winning
:22:31. > :22:34.what was a winnable seat? I do not see that at all. This is
:22:35. > :22:39.counterintuitive, but Jeremy Corbyn did do one thing that made it more
:22:40. > :22:44.difficult for us to win. Fantasy. That was to take Labour into a
:22:45. > :22:50.Brexit position formerly. Just over 50 Labour MPs had voted against
:22:51. > :22:53.triggering Article 50. In political terms, we have intimidated the
:22:54. > :22:56.Labour Party into backing Brexit. How much good is it doing you? It
:22:57. > :23:13.comes to the heart of the problem your party faces.
:23:14. > :23:15.You're struggling to win Tory Eurosceptic voters. For the moment,
:23:16. > :23:17.they seem happy with Theresa May. Stoke shows you're not winning
:23:18. > :23:19.Labour Brexit voters either. If you cannot get the solution Tolisso
:23:20. > :23:22.labour, where does your Broad come from? In terms of the by-election,
:23:23. > :23:25.it came very early for Paul. I'm talking about the future. We have a
:23:26. > :23:29.future agenda, and ideological argument with Jeremy Corbyn's Labour
:23:30. > :23:34.Party, which is wedded to the notion of global citizenship and does not
:23:35. > :23:38.recognise the nation state. We know he spent Christmas sitting around
:23:39. > :23:42.campfires with Mexican Marxist dreaming of global government. We
:23:43. > :23:45.believe in the nation state. We believe that the patriotic working
:23:46. > :23:51.class vote will be receptive to that. Your Broad went down by 9% in
:23:52. > :23:56.Cortland. In Copeland we were squeezed. In Stoke, we were unable
:23:57. > :24:02.to squeeze the Tories, who are on a high. Our agenda is that social
:24:03. > :24:06.solidarity is important but we arrange it in this country by nation
:24:07. > :24:11.and community. We want an immigration system that is not only
:24:12. > :24:15.reducing... We know what you want. I do not think people do. You had a
:24:16. > :24:20.whole by-election to tell people and they did not vote for you and. When
:24:21. > :24:25.Nigel Farage said it was fundamental that you were winner in Stoke, he
:24:26. > :24:33.was wrong? Nigel chooses his own words. I would not rewrite them. It
:24:34. > :24:36.would be a massive advantage to Ukip to have a leader in the House of
:24:37. > :24:39.Commons in time to reply to the budget, Prime Minister's questions
:24:40. > :24:42.and all of that. But we have taken the strategic view that we will
:24:43. > :24:47.fight the Labour Party for the working class vote. It is also true
:24:48. > :24:51.that the Conservatives will make a pitch for the working class vote
:24:52. > :24:55.might as well. All three parties have certain advantages and
:24:56. > :25:00.disadvantages. As part of that page, Nigel Farage said that your leader,
:25:01. > :25:04.Paul Nuttall, should have taken a clear, by which I assume he meant
:25:05. > :25:10.tough, line on immigration. Do you agree? He took a tough line on
:25:11. > :25:14.immigration. He developed that idea at our party conference in the
:25:15. > :25:18.spring. Nigel Farage did not think so? Nigel Farage made his speech
:25:19. > :25:24.before Paul Nuttall made his speech. He said this in the aftermath of the
:25:25. > :25:31.result. Once we have freedom to control and Borders, Paul wants to
:25:32. > :25:34.set up an immigration system that includes an aptitude test, do you
:25:35. > :25:40.have skills that the British economy needs, but also, and attitudes test,
:25:41. > :25:45.do you subscribe to core British values such as gender equality and
:25:46. > :25:49.freedom of expression? We will be making these arguments. It is
:25:50. > :25:53.certainly true that Paul's campaign was thrown off course by,
:25:54. > :25:59.particularly something that we knew the Labour Party had been preparing
:26:00. > :26:02.to run, the smear on the untruths, the implications about Hillsborough.
:26:03. > :26:08.If you knew you should have anticipated it. Alan Banks, he helps
:26:09. > :26:13.to bankroll your party, he said that Mr Nuttall needs to toss out the
:26:14. > :26:16.Tory cabal in Europe, by which he means Douglas Carswell, Neil
:26:17. > :26:22.Hamilton. Should they be stripped of their membership? Of course not. As
:26:23. > :26:25.far as I knew, Alan Banks was a member of the Conservative Party
:26:26. > :26:30.formally. I do not know who this Tory cabal is supposed to be. He
:26:31. > :26:34.says that your party is more like a jumble sale than a political party.
:26:35. > :26:40.He says that the party should make him chairman or they will work. What
:26:41. > :26:43.do you see to that? He has made that statement several times over many
:26:44. > :26:48.months, including if you do not throw out your only MP. Douglas
:26:49. > :26:52.Carswell has managed to win twice under Ukip colours. Should Tibi
:26:53. > :26:59.chairman? I think we have an excellent young chairman at the
:27:00. > :27:04.moment. He is doing a good job. The idea that Leave.EU was as smooth
:27:05. > :27:07.running brilliant machine, that does not sit with the facts as I
:27:08. > :27:11.understand them. Suzanne Evans says it would be no great loss for Ukip
:27:12. > :27:17.if Mr Banks walked out, severed his ties and took his money elsewhere.
:27:18. > :27:20.Is she right. I am always happy people who want to give money and
:27:21. > :27:25.support your party want to stay in the party. The best donors donate
:27:26. > :27:29.and do not seek to dictate. If they are experts in certain fields,
:27:30. > :27:32.people should listen to their views but to have a daughter telling the
:27:33. > :27:38.party leader who should be party chairman, that is a nonstarter. You
:27:39. > :27:43.have described your existing party chairman is excellent. He said it
:27:44. > :27:48.could be 20 years before Ukip wins by-election. Is he being too
:27:49. > :27:52.optimistic? There is a general election coming up in the years'
:27:53. > :27:57.time. We will be aiming to win seats in that. Before that, we will be the
:27:58. > :28:02.guard dog for Brexit, to make sure this extraordinary achievement of a
:28:03. > :28:06.little party... You are guard dog without a kennel, you cannot get
:28:07. > :28:10.seat? We're keeping the big establishment parties to do the will
:28:11. > :28:14.of the people. If we achieve nothing else at all, that will be a
:28:15. > :28:15.magnificent achievement. Thank you very much.
:28:16. > :28:17.Sweden isn't somewhere we talk about often
:28:18. > :28:21.should because this week it was pulled into
:28:22. > :28:21.the global spotlight, thanks
:28:22. > :28:31.Last weekend, Mr Trump was mocked for referring to an incident that
:28:32. > :28:34.had occurred last night in Sweden as a result of the country's open
:28:35. > :28:38.Critics were quick to point out that no such incident had occurred
:28:39. > :28:40.and Mr Trump later clarified on Twitter and he was talking
:28:41. > :28:44.about a report he had watched on Fox News.
:28:45. > :28:46.But as if to prove he was onto something,
:28:47. > :28:48.next day a riot broke out in a Stockholm suburb
:28:49. > :28:51.with a large migrant population, following unrest in such areas
:28:52. > :29:01.So what has been Sweden's experience of migration?
:29:02. > :29:03.In 2015, a record 162,000 people claimed asylum there, the second
:29:04. > :29:10.That number dropped to 29,000 in 2016 after the country introduced
:29:11. > :29:12.border restrictions and stopped offering permanent
:29:13. > :29:20.Tensions have risen, along with claims of links to crime,
:29:21. > :29:22.although official statistics do not provide evidence of a refugee driven
:29:23. > :29:31.Nigel Farage defended Mr Trump, claiming this week that migrants
:29:32. > :29:34.have led to a dramatic rise in sexual offences.
:29:35. > :29:36.Although the country does have the highest reported
:29:37. > :29:38.rate of rape in Europe, Swedish authorities say recent rises
:29:39. > :29:43.were due to changes to how rape and sex crimes are recorded.
:29:44. > :29:46.Aside from the issue of crime, Sweden has struggled
:29:47. > :29:51.Levels of inequality between natives and migrants when it comes
:29:52. > :29:55.Unemployment rates are three times higher for foreign-born workers
:29:56. > :30:07.We're joined now by Laila Naraghi, she's a Swedish MP from the
:30:08. > :30:10.governing Social Democratic Party, and by the author and
:30:11. > :30:25.The Swedish political establishment was outraged by Mr Trump's remarks,
:30:26. > :30:30.pointing to a riot that hadn't taken place, then a few nights later
:30:31. > :30:34.serious riots did break out in a largely migrant suburb of Stockholm
:30:35. > :30:39.so he wasn't far out, was he? I think he was far out because he is
:30:40. > :30:44.misleading the public with how he uses these statistics. I think it is
:30:45. > :30:48.important to remember that the violence has decreased in Sweden for
:30:49. > :30:51.the past 20 years and research shows there is no evidence that indicate
:30:52. > :31:00.that immigration leads to crime and so I think it is far out. The social
:31:01. > :31:04.unrest in these different areas is not because of their ethical
:31:05. > :31:10.backgrounds of these people living there but more about social economic
:31:11. > :31:14.reasons. OK, no evidence migrants are responsible for any kind of
:31:15. > :31:22.crime? This story reminds me after what happened to the Charlie Hebdo
:31:23. > :31:27.attacks in Paris when also a Fox News commentator said something that
:31:28. > :31:31.was outlandish about Paris and the Mayor of Paris threatened to sue Fox
:31:32. > :31:35.News, saying you are making our city look bad. It's a bit like that
:31:36. > :31:40.because the truth on this lies between Donald Trump on the Swedish
:31:41. > :31:46.authorities on this. Sweden and Swedish government is very reluctant
:31:47. > :31:49.to admit any downsides of its own migration policy and particularly
:31:50. > :31:55.the migration it hard in 2015 but there are very obvious downsides
:31:56. > :32:01.because Sweden is not a country that needs a non-skilled labour force
:32:02. > :32:06.which doesn't speak Swedish. What was raised as the matter of
:32:07. > :32:10.evidence, what is the evidence? First of all if I can say so the
:32:11. > :32:13.rape statistics in Sweden that have been cited are familiar with the
:32:14. > :32:18.rape statistics across other countries that have seen similar
:32:19. > :32:22.forms of migration. Danish authorities and the Norwegian
:32:23. > :32:27.authorities have recorded a similar thing. It is not done by ethnicity
:32:28. > :32:33.so we don't know. And this is part of the problem. It is again a lot of
:32:34. > :32:39.lies and rumours going about. When it is about for example rape, it is
:32:40. > :32:44.difficult to compare the statistics because in Sweden for example many
:32:45. > :32:49.crimes that in other countries are labelled as bodily harm or assault
:32:50. > :32:54.are in Sweden labelled as rape. Also how it is counted because if a woman
:32:55. > :33:02.goes to the police and reports that her husband or boyfriend has raped
:33:03. > :33:07.her, and done it every night for one year, in Sweden that is counted as
:33:08. > :33:12.365 offences. Something is going wrong, I look at the recent news
:33:13. > :33:15.from Sweden. Six Afghan child refugees committed suicide in the
:33:16. > :33:21.last six months, unemployment among recent migrants now five times
:33:22. > :33:27.higher than among non-migrants. We have seen gang violence in Malmo
:33:28. > :33:31.where a British child was killed by a grenade, rioting in Stockholm.
:33:32. > :33:35.Police in Sweden say there are 53 areas of the country where it is now
:33:36. > :33:42.dangerous to patrol. Something has gone wrong. Let me get back to what
:33:43. > :33:47.I think is the core of this debate if I may and that is the right for
:33:48. > :33:51.people fleeing war and political persecution to seek asylum, that is
:33:52. > :33:56.a human right. In Sweden we don't think we can do everything, but we
:33:57. > :34:00.want to live up to our obligation, every country has an obligation to
:34:01. > :34:05.receive asylum seekers. But you have changed your policy on that because
:34:06. > :34:09.having taken 163,001 year alone, you have then closed your borders, I
:34:10. > :34:15.think very wisely, closed the border which means 10,000 people per day at
:34:16. > :34:19.one point were walking from Denmark in to Malmo, you rightly changed
:34:20. > :34:23.that so he realised whatever ones aspirations in terms of asylum, it
:34:24. > :34:30.sometimes meets reality and Sweden is meeting the reality of this.
:34:31. > :34:33.Let's respond to that. We are not naive, we know we cannot do
:34:34. > :34:37.everything but we want to try to do our share as we think other
:34:38. > :34:41.countries also need to do their share. But let me say that, if you
:34:42. > :34:44.look at what the World Economic Forum is saying about our country
:34:45. > :34:49.they show we are in the top of many rankings, the best country to live
:34:50. > :34:57.in, to age in, to have children in, to start into -- to start
:34:58. > :35:04.enterprise. Why have you not been so good at integrating migrants? The
:35:05. > :35:08.unemployment rate is five times higher among migrants than
:35:09. > :35:13.non-migrants and that's the highest ratio of any country in the EU and
:35:14. > :35:18.the OECD, why have you not been able to integrate the people you have
:35:19. > :35:23.brought in for humanitarian reasons? I'm sure there are things we can do
:35:24. > :35:26.much better of course but if you look for example at the immigration
:35:27. > :35:31.that came in the 90s from the Balkans, they are well integrated
:35:32. > :35:33.and contributing to our society. They are starting enterprises and
:35:34. > :35:42.working in different fields of society, and they help our country.
:35:43. > :35:48.Why have they not got jobs, the migrants that have come in? It takes
:35:49. > :35:53.time. In the 90s we managed it and I'm sure we can do it again. Can I
:35:54. > :35:57.put this into some context, it is clear Sweden has got problems as a
:35:58. > :36:02.result of the number of migrants that come in, whether it is as bad
:36:03. > :36:05.as Mr Trump and others make out is another matter, but perhaps I can
:36:06. > :36:10.put it into context. Malmo, which has been at the centre of many of
:36:11. > :36:17.these migrant problems, its homicide rate is three per hundred thousand.
:36:18. > :36:23.Chicago, 28 per 100,000. It may have problems but they are not huge. No,
:36:24. > :36:28.they are pretty huge and I think they will grow. The Balkan refugees
:36:29. > :36:32.into Sweden in the 90s did bring a lot of problems and Sweden did for
:36:33. > :36:36.the first time see serious ethnic gang rivalries. There was an upsurge
:36:37. > :36:42.in gang-related violence that has gone on since. The situation in
:36:43. > :36:46.Malmo in particular is exaggerated by some people, there's no doubt
:36:47. > :36:49.about that, I have been there many times and it is undoubtedly
:36:50. > :36:55.exaggerated by some, it is also vastly unpersuaded by the Swedish
:36:56. > :37:05.authorities. -- understated. In 2010, one in ten Jews in Malmo
:37:06. > :37:15.registered some form of attack on them. It got so bad that in 2010
:37:16. > :37:19.people offered to escort Jews... You have had a good say and I have got
:37:20. > :37:25.to be fair here, what do you say to that, Laila Naraghi? There are
:37:26. > :37:29.people trying to frame our country in a certain way to push their own
:37:30. > :37:36.agenda. I regret that President Trump is trying to slander our
:37:37. > :37:39.country. But what about the specific point on Malmo? If you speak to
:37:40. > :37:44.people in Malmo and also to different congregations, they say
:37:45. > :37:48.they are working together with the authorities to improve this. I say
:37:49. > :37:53.again, there are a lot of people trying to spread rumours and lies.
:37:54. > :37:58.Your situation is very like the situation we had in Britain when we
:37:59. > :38:02.have these situations in Rotherham and elsewhere. 1400 girls were raped
:38:03. > :38:07.in Rotherham before police even admitted it was going on. That
:38:08. > :38:10.happened in Britain in the last decade, a similar phenomenon. An
:38:11. > :38:14.upsurge in particularly sexual and other forms of violence and then
:38:15. > :38:19.total denial by an entire political class is now something that is
:38:20. > :38:22.happening in Sweden. I see it in Swedish authorities and the denial
:38:23. > :38:27.that comes up and the desire to laugh and dismiss Trump but he's not
:38:28. > :38:34.answer nothing and that's a painful thing for any society to want to
:38:35. > :38:41.admit to. There are number of Swedes who think the establishment is
:38:42. > :38:46.covering up the true statistics, that you don't break crime down by
:38:47. > :38:51.ethnic crimes, people are suspicious of the centre-left and centre-right
:38:52. > :38:55.parties now in Sweden. There is no denial and no cover-up. This is what
:38:56. > :38:59.I'm speaking about when I say people are trying to frame it in a certain
:39:00. > :39:03.way. The social unrest is not because of the ethnical background
:39:04. > :39:07.of the people living there but rather because of different
:39:08. > :39:12.socioeconomics conditions. There is no research that shows
:39:13. > :39:15.immigration... But you don't do the research into it. Swedish
:39:16. > :39:19.authorities deliberately ensure you cannot carry out such research and
:39:20. > :39:23.after the attacks in Cologne in 2015 it was the first time then that the
:39:24. > :39:27.Swedish authorities and press admitted that similar sexual
:39:28. > :39:34.molestation have been going on for years in Sweden. Is it right to
:39:35. > :39:39.think, given the problem is maybe not as bad as many people make out
:39:40. > :39:44.but clearly problems, given these problems, is the age of mass asylum
:39:45. > :39:49.seeking for Sweden over? You have cut the numbers by 80% coming in
:39:50. > :39:53.last year compared with 2015, is it over while you concentrate on
:39:54. > :39:58.getting right the people that you have there already? We want to do
:39:59. > :40:01.our share, we have done a lot and now we are concentrating of course
:40:02. > :40:14.on integration and making sure people get a job, and also
:40:15. > :40:18.on big welfare investments because it's important to remember that for
:40:19. > :40:20.eight years Sweden were governed by a government that prioritised big
:40:21. > :40:24.tax cuts instead of investment in welfare. It may just not work. I am
:40:25. > :40:25.grateful to you both, we have to leave it there.
:40:26. > :40:27.It's coming up to 11:40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:40:28. > :40:30.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now
:40:31. > :40:35.the Week Ahead, when we'll be asking if the Government is facing defeat
:40:36. > :40:52.will they lose out to their north west neighbours
:40:53. > :40:54.if a devolution deal's blown away?
:40:55. > :40:57.I don't want them to be able to stride up to the front door
:40:58. > :41:00.at Downing Street and sort of carve up the northern powerhouse
:41:01. > :41:06.Safe and sound here in the studio - for now, at least -
:41:07. > :41:07.are powerhouses of Lancashire's political scene.
:41:08. > :41:09.Lindsay Hoyle is the Labour MP for Chorley,
:41:10. > :41:12.and also known as the Deputy Speaker of the House of Commons.
:41:13. > :41:15.And Peter Gibson is the Conservative Leader of Wyre Council.
:41:16. > :41:22.And we start with reaction to the two by-elections this week.
:41:23. > :41:24.An historic win for the Conservatives in Copeland,
:41:25. > :41:28.where Labour had held sway for more than 80 years.
:41:29. > :41:31.But Labour did see off the challenge of the UKIP leader,
:41:32. > :41:37.and our very own North West MEP, Paul Nuttall, to hang on to Stoke.
:41:38. > :41:40.Two seats just outside our patch but there was a Greater Manchester MP
:41:41. > :41:43.running the losing Labour campaign in Cumbria.
:41:44. > :41:49.and then the Labour MP in the neighbouring constituency.
:41:50. > :41:53.We had two years and two leadership contests,
:41:54. > :41:56.and the Labour Party talking to the Labour Party and nobody else.
:41:57. > :41:59.Part of the challenge now is that we start talking
:42:00. > :42:02.to the people and reconnecting with the voters.
:42:03. > :42:06.Just because the Labour Party has been in existence for the last
:42:07. > :42:10.100 years does not mean it has a God-given right to continue
:42:11. > :42:19.existing, and the way we are going, we are facing an historic wipe-out.
:42:20. > :42:22.Copeland was a disaster for the Labour Party.
:42:23. > :42:24.It wasn't our best night but, in fairness,
:42:25. > :42:27.what you've got to say is that it was a draw, wasn't it?
:42:28. > :42:31.Well, we've managed to hold Stoke, but we lost in Copeland.
:42:32. > :42:35.So what we've got to do is revoked on why we can win in one part
:42:36. > :42:38.What I would say is it's already come out...
:42:39. > :42:41.But Copeland is a seat that's been held for 80 years
:42:42. > :42:45.I think you'll find Stoke's even longer, so take nothing away
:42:46. > :42:48.from the fact that what I'm going to come round to say
:42:49. > :42:50.is the message worked in Stoke, but obviously
:42:51. > :42:57.Did it work, or did Paul Nuttall throw it away
:42:58. > :43:01.What I would say is that the Conservatives were late coming
:43:02. > :43:04.to the table and I think that in the end Labour came
:43:05. > :43:07.Look, it was a bigger majority in Stoke than
:43:08. > :43:10.Looking at Copeland, you want a good honest answer.
:43:11. > :43:13.You cannot have a party that is divided.
:43:14. > :43:16.But Copeland is where the message on the NHS didn't come through.
:43:17. > :43:18.This is comfy territory for the Labour leader,
:43:19. > :43:19.and yet it didn't work on the doorstep.
:43:20. > :43:22.What I would say is that I'm quite shocked that you can
:43:23. > :43:26.The fact is that people will have to go to Carlisle.
:43:27. > :43:28.The sheer distance in journey, I would have thought
:43:29. > :43:32.In the end, the people of Copeland...
:43:33. > :43:39.What it does say is that the party has got to re-engage,
:43:40. > :43:41.it's got to have a clear message that people can vote for.
:43:42. > :43:44.Andrew Gwynne, one of our best campaigners, people who know
:43:45. > :43:46.the area, what they were doing was campaigning and
:43:47. > :43:50.The bottom line was, they were not going to vote Labour.
:43:51. > :43:59.Seven years of austerity, Peter, and still the Conservatives won
:44:00. > :44:02.You must have been surprised yourself.
:44:03. > :44:08.Let's not think it is 10,000, or Wigan or something.
:44:09. > :44:10.I was really pleased with the result.
:44:11. > :44:14.We had a great local candidate who fought on local issues.
:44:15. > :44:16.Lindsay talks about Cat Smith, she said, and she is quoted
:44:17. > :44:19.as saying, it was a great result for Labour.
:44:20. > :44:22.How can you lose a seat that has been there for 30 years...
:44:23. > :44:32.Sorry, since the 1930s with Labour, and you're talking
:44:33. > :44:35.about a Government in a mid-term election who have actually taken
:44:36. > :44:45.And no doubt, this battle for the Labour Party will rage on,
:44:46. > :44:47.but there's another bubbling to the surface in Lancashire.
:44:48. > :44:49.Councils in Greater Manchester and Merseyside, with Halton,
:44:50. > :44:52.have joined forces to form combined authorities.
:44:53. > :44:55.That means they're given more money and more powers.
:44:56. > :44:58.But Lancashire's 15 councils are divided.
:44:59. > :45:01.Peter Gibson's Wyre decided not to sign up,
:45:02. > :45:19.They came from China, from Switzerland, to a shiny
:45:20. > :45:21.conference on the mystical northern powerhouse.
:45:22. > :45:23.That's that thing that's nudging Northerners together in the hope
:45:24. > :45:27.It even lead to all but one of Lancashire's 15 councils
:45:28. > :45:32.of mixed colours to make one bid for devolution.
:45:33. > :45:35.The difference it's made is that leaders from all walks of life
:45:36. > :45:38.are now speaking to each other, and genuinely working on behalf
:45:39. > :45:41.Which, to be honest, hasn't happened an awful lot
:45:42. > :45:50.But, by Wednesday, were the wheels coming off?
:45:51. > :45:52.Fylde Council looked set to join Wyre in withdrawing
:45:53. > :45:57.So much for Lancashire's spirit of harmony!
:45:58. > :46:02.We have got councils drawn together with totally different outlooks,
:46:03. > :46:03.totally different political outlooks,
:46:04. > :46:08.And we can't see that one size fits all will solve any more for us
:46:09. > :46:16.Then rumours that Ribble Valley were dithering on devolution.
:46:17. > :46:17.That is the third Conservative council
:46:18. > :46:23.Especially with rumours that the Labour leader of Blackpool
:46:24. > :46:33.That's enough to make our hackles rise slightly, and it is likely that
:46:34. > :46:36.any mayor will not be of the same political persuasion as our council.
:46:37. > :46:39.By Thursday, the storm had truly hit.
:46:40. > :46:41.Doris reflecting Lancashire's darkest fears - losing out
:46:42. > :46:48.In May of this year, both Greater Manchester
:46:49. > :46:50.and Merseyside will have elected mayors with powerful mandates.
:46:51. > :46:53.I don't want them to be able to stride up to the front door
:46:54. > :46:56.at Downing Street and sort of carve up the northern powerhouse
:46:57. > :47:02.Lancashire's got to have a seat at the table,
:47:03. > :47:06.There are certainly a few lessons to be learned.
:47:07. > :47:09.The Government says there is space in the northern powerhouse for areas
:47:10. > :47:13.The question is whether they would rather focus on their own bricks
:47:14. > :47:20.and mortar, which have already been laid.
:47:21. > :47:23.Peter, if Fylde to pull which is look like they will,
:47:24. > :47:26.the deal is dead, they going to have to start from scratch.
:47:27. > :47:28.That means more economic reviews, another public consultation.
:47:29. > :47:31.Is there the appetite to go through all of that again?
:47:32. > :47:36.There wasn't a proper consultation anyway.
:47:37. > :47:45.It was something like 0.013% response to the county's proposals
:47:46. > :47:50.proposals for a combined authority in Lancashire.
:47:51. > :47:57.Fylde will pull out, the ruling party has said unanimously...
:47:58. > :47:59.Are you still certain that it's the right thing?
:48:00. > :48:01.I was at that northern powerhouse conference,
:48:02. > :48:03.and there were delegates there from China, from mainland
:48:04. > :48:05.Europe, talking about how they know now what Merseyside is.
:48:06. > :48:07.They know what Greater Manchester is.
:48:08. > :48:09.And they are investing for that reason.
:48:10. > :48:13.Is it losing out on this whole northern powerhouse thing by not
:48:14. > :48:20.I've had two meetings with Chinese consortiums,
:48:21. > :48:27.to do with putting together a power station in Thornton,
:48:28. > :48:39.Lindsay, is it time to accept that Lancashire is 15 voices
:48:40. > :48:50.It's a bit like the election result, you've got to have a united front.
:48:51. > :48:52.At the moment, we haven't got a united front.
:48:53. > :48:55.We got to come up with something that will make sure that
:48:56. > :48:58.We talk about the northern powerhouse,
:48:59. > :49:03.We've got to make sure that we're not the northern poorhouse
:49:04. > :49:05.in all this, because we are not united.
:49:06. > :49:08.We've got to put the case for Lancashire.
:49:09. > :49:18.We got to tell people we are at one, we believe in creating jobs,
:49:19. > :49:19.we believe in the future of Lancashire.
:49:20. > :49:22.Why do you want to work in a clogged-up city
:49:23. > :49:27.Your mayor goes up and knocks on the door of Whitehall and says,
:49:28. > :49:29."I'm Mr Lancashire or Mrs Lancashire,
:49:30. > :49:34.The bottom line is, if we don't accept change,
:49:35. > :49:36.because it's not what I want, it's what the Government wants.
:49:37. > :49:38.So what's the solution if the squabbling continues?
:49:39. > :49:41.Their own report says that they won't exist after two
:49:42. > :49:43.years because of the financial Budget, we've got
:49:44. > :49:45.It's about finding the right solution for
:49:46. > :49:52.I think what we'll find is we will have a forced
:49:53. > :49:53.marriage by government, where we will do
:49:54. > :49:57.So surely we are better off creating our own marriages,
:49:58. > :49:59.and let's take Lancashire forward by working together,
:50:00. > :50:01.but in the best interests of the people we represent.
:50:02. > :50:04.But the bottom line is that there would have been a large investment
:50:05. > :50:06.coming to Lancashire, had the devolution
:50:07. > :50:08.Because of you, arguably, that's not happening.
:50:09. > :50:11.Well, that's not exactly true, and I agree with Lindsay that
:50:12. > :50:18.there's not going to be a fantastic investment in like a sure.
:50:19. > :50:22.What they don't seem to understand is that any investment that comes
:50:23. > :50:25.into Lancashire comes as not an unconditional grant.
:50:26. > :50:35.The Government will say, you have got to invest in this
:50:36. > :50:37.and invest in that, invest in the other...
:50:38. > :50:39.Do you dispute that the basic philosophy that you work better
:50:40. > :50:42.and stronger as one voice, rather than 15 separate ones?
:50:43. > :50:47.What I'm saying is it's one voice, isn't it?
:50:48. > :50:50.We have got a Chinese consortium coming into Wyre, we've got
:50:51. > :50:57.One is a ?300 million investment, the other is an ?800 million
:50:58. > :51:03.So I think we've got a fantastic opportunity there.
:51:04. > :51:07.And at the conference in Manchester that I mentioned earlier, I asked
:51:08. > :51:09.the Northern Powerhouse Minister, Andrew Percy, if devolution
:51:10. > :51:20.For us to agree devolution in a statutory test site, it must be
:51:21. > :51:23.The moment you start carving up bits,
:51:24. > :51:27.But these are local decisions to be taken by local leaders.
:51:28. > :51:30.If they choose not to progress in a particular way,
:51:31. > :51:44.If of the 15 councils, three drop out,
:51:45. > :51:48.I don't know what the position will be, but it has to be across an area,
:51:49. > :51:50.a functional economic area, and one which makes
:51:51. > :51:52.the administration of functions and powers more efficient.
:51:53. > :51:55.So once you start carving up bits, that makes that more difficult.
:51:56. > :52:00.What it is is an initiative, getting people to collaborate
:52:01. > :52:05.more within the North, with the aim of bridging
:52:06. > :52:06.that decades-long gap between the northern economy
:52:07. > :52:12.In essence, it is really how we make full potential of the North.
:52:13. > :52:15.There is a definite consensus here that the key to unlocking
:52:16. > :52:29.Northern powerhouse rail, this west to east, east to west connection.
:52:30. > :52:32.I think you want it, I can tell you want it.
:52:33. > :52:34.What I can't tell is if Chris Grayling once it
:52:35. > :52:42.The business case has to stack up and all the rest of it to attract...
:52:43. > :52:47.Well, we set up Transport for the North, given them a lot
:52:48. > :52:50.of public money to go away and look at all of this.
:52:51. > :52:52.Regardless of what the final decision is on HS3...
:52:53. > :52:57.Of course, we haven't made announcements in terms
:52:58. > :52:59.of the funding long-term, because we got to wait
:53:00. > :53:04.It would be wrong of us to just press ahead without people doing
:53:05. > :53:11.It's something that we've asked Transport for the North to look at,
:53:12. > :53:13.and we've all been very positive about that.
:53:14. > :53:17.Regardless of that, you have billions of pounds of investment
:53:18. > :53:18.going on improving that East-West connectivity anyway.
:53:19. > :53:21.The new rail franchise is bringing some of that in.
:53:22. > :53:24.So we are really clear, we want to address this East-West issue
:53:25. > :53:28.as the Cabinet keep doing, apparently.
:53:29. > :53:30.We talk about this northern powerhouse rail going from west
:53:31. > :53:33.to east or east to west, as he insisted, would that benefit
:53:34. > :53:36.Lancashire, or is that just another way that you will get left behind?
:53:37. > :53:39.The problem is it is about joining the two financial centres
:53:40. > :53:41.What we're saying is, what about Preston?
:53:42. > :53:45.What about the M65, that goes into a car park?
:53:46. > :53:48.You know, basically all that does, it must be the best
:53:49. > :53:50.superstore, Bounday Mill - it's got three lane
:53:51. > :53:53.What I'm saying is, it's about all the links, isn't it?
:53:54. > :53:56.We need a new railway east to west, or west to east.
:53:57. > :54:04.We also need the M65 to go through Leeds.
:54:05. > :54:07.We've got to give East Lancashire new purpose, drive the motorway
:54:08. > :54:12.through, rejuvenate that part of Lancashire.
:54:13. > :54:15.You know, it's not about me saying it should be all about me.
:54:16. > :54:19.It's about looking at Lancashire as a whole.
:54:20. > :54:22.We've been left out, and of course the minister is going to talk
:54:23. > :54:26.We want to talk about joining the counties in a different way.
:54:27. > :54:30.Peter, do you not think, if Leeds grows, if Manchester grows,
:54:31. > :54:32.if the biggest city conurbations grow, we do become
:54:33. > :54:34.this one northern hub, and Lancashire by proxy benefits?
:54:35. > :54:38.I think in terms of whether it be Manchester,
:54:39. > :54:40.whether it be Liverpool, Leeds, I think they are
:54:41. > :54:43.They are metropolitan areas, and they are not
:54:44. > :54:47.Lancashire has an upper tier authority, LCC,
:54:48. > :54:56.which I think both of us have our doubts about.
:54:57. > :55:01.So I think we need to look at it that way.
:55:02. > :55:07.When the Government recently told us to "get Britain building,"
:55:08. > :55:10.the response from some was, "we will - but show us the money."
:55:11. > :55:12.Among the Government's proposals were plans to attract major
:55:13. > :55:14.institutional investors - things like pension providers -
:55:15. > :55:22.But it appears one of our public pension pots is already doing
:55:23. > :55:25.just that and they have plenty of cash to play with,
:55:26. > :55:32.We know there's a housing shortage and we're told that tens
:55:33. > :55:35.of thousands of new homes are needed in the north west every year.
:55:36. > :55:39.But where are the funds to pay for them going to come from?
:55:40. > :55:42.This rented house in Gorton in Manchester was built using money
:55:43. > :55:46.from the Greater Manchester public sector pension fund.
:55:47. > :55:50.It's one of 240 that were part of a pilot to establish
:55:51. > :55:54.whether affordable housing could be a worthwhile investment.
:55:55. > :55:57.We didn't want to rent extortionate Lee high prices
:55:58. > :55:59.in Manchester city centre, we wanted somewhere
:56:00. > :56:01.that was close enough to commute into for the weekends,
:56:02. > :56:05.or whenever we needed to go in there.
:56:06. > :56:06.They were completed 18 months ago,
:56:07. > :56:08.with half for sale and half for rent.
:56:09. > :56:13.The homes sold out quickly while the landlord managing
:56:14. > :56:15.the rented properties had no problems filling them.
:56:16. > :56:21.We had tenants lined up to occupy the properties
:56:22. > :56:23.as soon as they became available, really.
:56:24. > :56:25.Under the model for the initial developments, including
:56:26. > :56:27.this one in Wythenshawe, Greater Manchester
:56:28. > :56:33.councils to give them patches of land at no initial cost.
:56:34. > :56:36.In return, they'll be helped to meet the need for new houses
:56:37. > :56:39.and they'll receive income from council tax.
:56:40. > :56:42.The pension fund is hoping to build a further 750 homes
:56:43. > :56:56.It really gives us a good return, and a safe return,
:56:57. > :56:59.That's exactly what pension funds are
:57:00. > :57:05.I know that other pension funds are looking at the
:57:06. > :57:07.Greater Manchester model, because they are
:57:08. > :57:12.seeing the success of the model.
:57:13. > :57:15.Yes, it is creating money for the Greater Manchester pension fund
:57:16. > :57:18.but more importantly, it's creating new affordable homes for people to
:57:19. > :57:20.live in in Greater Manchester and the north-west.
:57:21. > :57:22.The Greater Manchester pension pot is worth ?21 billion
:57:23. > :57:25.and it's looking to pool its money with that of the pension funds
:57:26. > :57:28.Between them, they're worth ?42 billion.
:57:29. > :57:32.The intention is to double the amount they currently put
:57:33. > :57:34.into infrastructure, which includes house building,
:57:35. > :57:37.and that could see a further ?3 billion
:57:38. > :57:40.Pensions are portfolio of investments.
:57:41. > :57:51.Some of them are in high risk my returns.
:57:52. > :57:55.Investment housing can return more than a bond can, a couple of
:57:56. > :58:00.So it's a perfectly valid part of that mix.
:58:01. > :58:02.This site in North Manchester is among those earmarked
:58:03. > :58:05.for the next phase of developments, with a prediction that sites
:58:06. > :58:08.The pension funds building 1,000 houses won't solve
:58:09. > :58:11.the housing crisis but it could be the start of them playing
:58:12. > :58:12.an increasing role in building the region's future.
:58:13. > :58:16.So that's one way of addressing the housing crisis.
:58:17. > :58:19.In Lancashire, it was said in 2009 there were almost 40,000
:58:20. > :58:32.Would you be happy for social housing to be built in Wyre?
:58:33. > :58:34.We have an arrangement in Wyre, where when a planning
:58:35. > :58:37.application comes in, we have 30% which it
:58:38. > :58:42.Is that not part of the reason you resisted devolution?
:58:43. > :58:48.So, in theory, 30% will be social housing,
:58:49. > :58:57.Developers build houses, we do not build houses.
:58:58. > :59:01.What happens is if the 30% is not viable on a site,
:59:02. > :59:08.then we look at that with the developer and see
:59:09. > :59:12.We have been talking housing now for decades,
:59:13. > :59:18.We have still got tens of thousands of people...
:59:19. > :59:20.The reality is, we've got to encourage local
:59:21. > :59:26.They used to build good quality houses, they were great landlords,
:59:27. > :59:28.and the tenant understood where they were standing
:59:29. > :59:33.What if every council leader says, "I just don't want to"?
:59:34. > :59:36.If we said to Peter, look, you've got some council owned land,
:59:37. > :59:38.here is government money, would you build some houses?
:59:39. > :59:49.When the Government offer me money, I will take a different view on it.
:59:50. > :59:54.Are you not concerned that you have an ageing population?
:59:55. > :59:57.Are you not concerned that young people will not be able to afford
:59:58. > :00:03.I think part of the problem with the housing situation
:00:04. > :00:13.is that the Government look at the south-east and London
:00:14. > :00:15.and think that's going to be the same situation throughout
:00:16. > :00:18.In the north-west, we don't have that problem.
:00:19. > :00:28.We used to have something called a regional spatial strategy.
:00:29. > :00:35.but it is an issue in other parts of Lancashire.
:00:36. > :00:39.With a roundup of what else has been going on this week,
:00:40. > :00:45.A man from Manchester blew himself up in a suicide attack in Mosul.
:00:46. > :00:48.Jamal al-Harith - originally known as Ronald Fiddler -
:00:49. > :00:52.had been paid compensation by the Government
:00:53. > :00:55.after his release from Guantanamo Bay.
:00:56. > :00:58.It shows that the red flagging of people who have
:00:59. > :01:01.terrorist connections is not as robust as it should be.
:01:02. > :01:06.Concerns over car-making at Ellesmere Port -
:01:07. > :01:11.Peugeot wants to buy Vauxhall and one of its UK plants could go.
:01:12. > :01:15.The Prime Minister is to hold talks with Peugeot's Chief Exec.
:01:16. > :01:18.There'll be a Manx Tax on sugary drinks
:01:19. > :01:22.Tynwald is also asking for suggestions on how to cut
:01:23. > :01:28.28,000 drivers have been fined for using a new bus lane
:01:29. > :01:33.Lancashire County Council says the signs are clear,
:01:34. > :01:38.And Barrow's getting ?25 million to build
:01:39. > :01:46.the new Dreadnought-class nuclear submarines.
:01:47. > :01:48.Before we go, Lindsay, I just want to ask you,
:01:49. > :01:51.as Deputy Speaker of the House, you have to go through all
:01:52. > :01:57.Obviously, it has been very interesting.
:01:58. > :02:03.Every morning, we've gone in and sat down,
:02:04. > :02:06.gone through all of the amendments that will be dealt with on the floor
:02:07. > :02:09.of the House, that's my job as Chairman of Ways and Means.
:02:10. > :02:12.So it's been really interesting, but it's been a tough time.
:02:13. > :02:15.What it's trying to do is make sure that everybody gets a voice,
:02:16. > :02:17.so not everybody can have everything they want.
:02:18. > :02:20.As long as they get something, that is what I've tried to do,
:02:21. > :02:22.make sure that nobody felt they were left out.
:02:23. > :02:24.It's a very important issue for everybody,
:02:25. > :02:26.and I wanted everybody to have a say, at least
:02:27. > :02:29.have a vote, and hopefully try and keep them semi-pleased.
:02:30. > :02:32.Of course, part of that was that we did have a little dispute.
:02:33. > :02:34.There were one or two incidents on the way.
:02:35. > :02:37.Of course, we've got the Great Reform Bill,
:02:38. > :02:41.that's going to take a lot of time up in the near future,
:02:42. > :02:45.We don't know how long will be dealing with that.
:02:46. > :02:47.It certainly felt like everybody had a say, everybody managed
:02:48. > :02:51.Do you think we got the next Speaker of the House here, Peter?
:02:52. > :02:56.What you didn't mention is that Lindsay also
:02:57. > :02:59.chairs the Budget speech, which he does fantastically well,
:03:00. > :03:04.So if Speaker Bercow does stand down next year,
:03:05. > :03:08.like he promised to do, then this is the guy
:03:09. > :03:12.This is the guy I would be voting for.
:03:13. > :03:20.Obviously, like everything, let's wait and see what happens.
:03:21. > :03:27.We will keep our eyes closely on that.
:03:28. > :03:30.That's it from us - my thanks to Peter Gibson and Lindsay Hoyle.
:03:31. > :03:33.Angela Eagle will be among the guests next week.
:03:34. > :03:38.Now I'll hand you back to Andrew in London.
:03:39. > :03:58.Welcome back. Article 50, which triggers the beginning of Britain
:03:59. > :04:02.leaving the European Union and start negotiations, is winding its way
:04:03. > :04:06.through the Lords in this coming week. Tarzan has made an
:04:07. > :04:13.intervention, let's just see the headline from the Mail on Sunday.
:04:14. > :04:17.Lord Heseltine, Michael Heseltine, my fightback starts here, he is
:04:18. > :04:21.going to defy Theresa May. I divide one Prime Minister over the poll
:04:22. > :04:25.tax, I'm ready to defy this one in the Lords over Brexit. There we go,
:04:26. > :04:31.that's going to happen this week. We will see how far he gets. I don't
:04:32. > :04:35.think he will get very far, I don't think Loyalist Tory MPs and
:04:36. > :04:40.Brexiteers are quaking in their boots at the prospect of a rebellion
:04:41. > :04:45.led by Michael Heseltine. I sense that many Tory MPs are already
:04:46. > :04:49.moving on to the next question about Brexit, and the discussion over how
:04:50. > :04:55.much it will cost us to come out. The fact they are already debating
:04:56. > :05:00.that suggests to me they feel things will go fairly smoothly in terms of
:05:01. > :05:05.the legislation. When I spoke to the Labour leader in the Lords last week
:05:06. > :05:08.on the daily politics, she said she was going to push hard for the kind
:05:09. > :05:17.of amendments Lord has all-time is talking about and they would bring
:05:18. > :05:20.that back to the Commons. But if the Commons pinged it back to the Lords
:05:21. > :05:27.with the amendments taken out, she made it clear that was the end of
:05:28. > :05:32.it. Is that right? That's about right. This is probably really a
:05:33. > :05:37.large destruction. There will be to micro issues that come up in the
:05:38. > :05:42.Lords, one is on the future of EU nationals, that could be voted on as
:05:43. > :05:46.soon as this Wednesday, and then the main vote in the Lords on a week on
:05:47. > :05:50.Tuesday, when there is this question of what sort of vote will MPs and
:05:51. > :05:54.peers get at the end of the Brexit process and that is what has
:05:55. > :05:59.all-time is talking about. He wants to make sure there are guarantees in
:06:00. > :06:03.place. The kind of things peers are looking for are pretty moderate and
:06:04. > :06:09.the Government have hinted they could deliver on both of them
:06:10. > :06:13.already. But they are still not prepared... Amber Rudd said they
:06:14. > :06:17.were not prepared... They may say yes we are going to do that but they
:06:18. > :06:22.won't allow whatever that is to be enshrined in the legislation. The
:06:23. > :06:26.question is whether we think this is dancing on the head of a pin. The
:06:27. > :06:29.Government have already promised something in the House of Commons,
:06:30. > :06:34.but will they write it down, I don't think that's the biggest problem in
:06:35. > :06:37.the world. In a sense this is a great magicians trick by Theresa May
:06:38. > :06:44.because it is not the most important thing. The most important thing in
:06:45. > :06:46.Brexit is going on in those committees behind closed doors when
:06:47. > :06:50.they are trying to work out what the next migration system is for Britain
:06:51. > :06:54.and there are some interesting, indeed toxic proposals, but at the
:06:55. > :06:58.moment Downing Street are happy to let us talk about the constitutional
:06:59. > :07:05.propriety of what MPs are doing over the next eight days. It seems to me
:07:06. > :07:09.the irony is that if we had a second chamber that can claim some kind of
:07:10. > :07:14.democratic legitimacy, which the one we have cannot, it would be able to
:07:15. > :07:18.cause the Government more trouble on this, it would be more robust.
:07:19. > :07:26.Absolutely. I saw the interview we did with the Labour Leader of the
:07:27. > :07:31.Lords, they are very conscious, of the fact they are not elected and
:07:32. > :07:34.have limited powers. She was clear to you they would not impede the
:07:35. > :07:39.timetable for triggering Article 50 so we might get a bit of theatre,
:07:40. > :07:45.Michael Heseltine might deliver a brilliant speech. It is interesting
:07:46. > :07:50.that Euroscepticism gun under Margaret Thatcher in the Tory party
:07:51. > :07:54.but two offer senior ministers Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine are the
:07:55. > :07:58.most prominent opponents now but they will change nothing at this
:07:59. > :08:03.point. She will have the space to trigger Article 50 within her
:08:04. > :08:05.timetable. Let's move on. Let me show you a picture tweeted by Nigel
:08:06. > :08:15.Farage. That is Nigel Farage and a small
:08:16. > :08:19.group of people having dinner, and within that small group of people is
:08:20. > :08:24.the president of the United States, and it was taken in the last couple
:08:25. > :08:30.of days. This would suggest that if he can command that amount of the
:08:31. > :08:34.President's time in a small group of people, then he's actually rather
:08:35. > :08:39.close to the president. Make no mistake about it, Nigel Farage is
:08:40. > :08:46.now to and fro Washington more regularly than perhaps he is here.
:08:47. > :08:52.Hopefully that LBC programme is recorded over in the state. He's not
:08:53. > :08:55.only close to the president but to a series of people within the
:08:56. > :09:00.administration. That relationship there is a remarkable one and one to
:09:01. > :09:04.keep an eye on. Will the main government be tempted to tap into
:09:05. > :09:11.that relationship at any time or is it just seething with anger? You can
:09:12. > :09:17.feel a ripple of discontentment over this. We are in the middle of
:09:18. > :09:21.negotiating the state visit and the sort of pomp and circumstance and
:09:22. > :09:25.what kind of greeting Britain should give Donald Trump when he comes over
:09:26. > :09:29.later in the year. There is a great deal of neurotic thought going into
:09:30. > :09:32.what that should look like, but one of the most interesting things about
:09:33. > :09:36.our relationship with Donald Trump is that there is a nervousness among
:09:37. > :09:40.some Cabinet ministers that we are being seen to go too far, too fast
:09:41. > :09:44.with the prospect of a trade deal. Even amongst some Brexiteer cabinet
:09:45. > :09:49.ministers, they worry we won't get a very good trade deal with the US and
:09:50. > :09:53.we are tolerably placing a lot of stalled by it. When we see the kind
:09:54. > :10:02.of deal they want to pitch with us there might be some pulling back and
:10:03. > :10:04.that could be an awkward moment in terms of our relationship, and no
:10:05. > :10:10.doubt Nigel at that term -- at that point will accuse the UK of doing
:10:11. > :10:18.the dirty on Donald Trump. If there was a deal, would they get it
:10:19. > :10:22.through the House of Commons? Nigel Farage is having dinner with the
:10:23. > :10:26.president, not bad as a kind of lifestyle but he's politically
:10:27. > :10:29.rootless, he won't be an MEP much longer so if you look at where is
:10:30. > :10:34.his political base to build on this great time he's having, there is
:10:35. > :10:37.one. Given that there is one I think he's just having a great time and it
:10:38. > :10:47.isn't much more significant than that. No? There's a lot to be said
:10:48. > :10:56.for having a great time. You are having a great time. Let's just
:10:57. > :11:01.look, because of the dominance of the Government we kind of it nor
:11:02. > :11:06.there are problems piling up, only what, ten days with the Budget to
:11:07. > :11:12.go, piling up for Mrs May and her government. The business rates which
:11:13. > :11:16.has alarmed a lot of Tories, this disability cuts which are really a
:11:17. > :11:20.serious problem for the Government, and the desperate need for more
:11:21. > :11:25.money for social care. There are other issues, there are problems
:11:26. > :11:29.there and they involve spending money. Absolutely and some people
:11:30. > :11:33.argue Theresa May has only one Monday and that is to deliver Brexit
:11:34. > :11:40.but it is impossible as a Prime Minister to ignore everything else.
:11:41. > :11:43.And she doesn't want to either. The bubbling issue of social care and
:11:44. > :11:48.the NHS is the biggest single problem for her in the weeks and
:11:49. > :11:51.months ahead, she has got to come up with something. And Mr Hammond will
:11:52. > :11:57.have to loosen his belt a little bit. I think he will in relation to
:11:58. > :12:00.the NHS, he didn't mention it in the Autumn Statement, which was
:12:01. > :12:04.remarkable, and he cannot get away with not mentioning it this time. If
:12:05. > :12:08.he mentions it, it has to be in a positive context in some way or
:12:09. > :12:11.another and it is one example of many. She is both strong because she
:12:12. > :12:16.is so far ahead in the opinion polls, but this in tray is one of
:12:17. > :12:22.the most daunting a Prime Minister has faced in recent times I think.
:12:23. > :12:28.Here is what will happen on Budget day, money will be more money,
:12:29. > :12:34.magically found down the back of the Treasury sofa. The projections are
:12:35. > :12:38.that he has wiggle room of about 12 billion. But look at the bills,
:12:39. > :12:43.rebels involved in business rates suggest the Chancellor will have to
:12:44. > :12:47.throw up ?2 billion at that problem. 3.7 billion is the potential cost of
:12:48. > :12:51.this judgment about disability benefits. The Government will try to
:12:52. > :12:57.find different ways of satisfying it but who knows. It will not popular.
:12:58. > :13:00.I'm not sure they will throw money at the NHS, they want an interim
:13:01. > :13:04.settlement on social care which will alleviate pressure on the NHS but
:13:05. > :13:11.they feel... That's another couple of billion by the way. They feel in
:13:12. > :13:16.the Treasury that the NHS has not delivered on what Simon Stevens
:13:17. > :13:21.promised them. But here is the bigger problem for Philip Hammond,
:13:22. > :13:24.he has two This year and he thinks the second one in the autumn is more
:13:25. > :13:26.important because that is when people will feel the cost living
:13:27. > :13:28.squeeze. The Daily Politics is back at noon
:13:29. > :13:32.on BBC Two tomorrow. We'll be back here at
:13:33. > :13:34.the same time next week. Remember - if it's Sunday,
:13:35. > :13:41.it's the Sunday Politics.