:00:39. > :00:43.It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:44. > :00:45.The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone,
:00:46. > :00:47.but do the security services have the resources and
:00:48. > :00:51.We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons.
:00:52. > :00:54.As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of
:00:55. > :01:00.Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power
:01:01. > :01:04.Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job
:01:05. > :01:06.done" - we'll speak to him and the party's
:01:07. > :01:10.Has George Osborne dug himself out of a hole?
:01:11. > :01:12.Tories in Tatton say George Osborne's convinced them
:01:13. > :01:17.of course he can edit a London paper, and serve them in Cheshire.
:01:18. > :01:29.And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political
:01:30. > :01:31.panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee
:01:32. > :01:37.and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme.
:01:38. > :01:39.First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack
:01:40. > :01:43.The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament,
:01:44. > :01:45.but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 -
:01:46. > :01:49.one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital.
:01:50. > :01:51.His target was the very heart of our democracy,
:01:52. > :01:54.the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres
:01:55. > :01:57.of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers.
:01:58. > :02:01.Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's
:02:02. > :02:02.close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity
:02:03. > :02:11.at the time, the outcome could have been even worse.
:02:12. > :02:19.Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we
:02:20. > :02:23.be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary
:02:24. > :02:26.response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as
:02:27. > :02:31.prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive
:02:32. > :02:33.way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and
:02:34. > :02:38.national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to
:02:39. > :02:42.whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put
:02:43. > :02:48.more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor
:02:49. > :02:52.sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder
:02:53. > :02:56.whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around
:02:57. > :03:01.the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack,
:03:02. > :03:05.as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on
:03:06. > :03:09.social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the
:03:10. > :03:15.attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to
:03:16. > :03:18.the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions.
:03:19. > :03:23.Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while
:03:24. > :03:27.an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the
:03:28. > :03:31.weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the
:03:32. > :03:36.world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it
:03:37. > :03:41.stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for
:03:42. > :03:45.years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the
:03:46. > :03:50.chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal,
:03:51. > :03:55.so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of
:03:56. > :03:59.London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that
:04:00. > :04:05.the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this
:04:06. > :04:11.is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think
:04:12. > :04:15.from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a
:04:16. > :04:20.poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to
:04:21. > :04:23.imagine the emergency services and local people, international
:04:24. > :04:30.visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our
:04:31. > :04:34.Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards
:04:35. > :04:38.shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice.
:04:39. > :04:42.It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values
:04:43. > :04:45.that is attacking. OK, thank you for that.
:04:46. > :04:47.So, four days after the attack, what more do we know
:04:48. > :04:51.The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains
:04:52. > :04:56.Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation.
:04:57. > :05:01.According to a police timeline, that's how long it took
:05:02. > :05:03.Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster
:05:04. > :05:10.to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter...
:05:11. > :05:14.to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard
:05:15. > :05:25.The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster.
:05:26. > :05:29.The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying:
:05:30. > :05:32."We would like to express our gratitude to the people
:05:33. > :05:35.who were with Keith in his last moments and who were
:05:36. > :05:38.There was nothing more you could have done,
:05:39. > :05:41.you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone."
:05:42. > :05:44.Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him.
:05:45. > :05:47.Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp
:05:48. > :05:54.The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging
:05:55. > :06:00.There should be no place for terrorists to hide.
:06:01. > :06:02.We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp,
:06:03. > :06:05.and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret
:06:06. > :06:08.place for terrorists to communicate with each other.
:06:09. > :06:12.It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just
:06:13. > :06:21.listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing,
:06:22. > :06:23.legally, through warrantry, but in this situation
:06:24. > :06:25.we need to make sure that our intelligence services
:06:26. > :06:27.have the ability to get into situations like encrypted
:06:28. > :06:31.She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions
:06:32. > :06:33.at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out
:06:34. > :06:37.But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be
:06:38. > :06:45...not the policy implications that will echo the loudest.
:06:46. > :06:47.We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol,
:06:48. > :06:53.the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright.
:06:54. > :07:01.What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I
:07:02. > :07:04.can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation,
:07:05. > :07:08.because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but
:07:09. > :07:12.to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80
:07:13. > :07:16.counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year,
:07:17. > :07:20.using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the
:07:21. > :07:24.very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also
:07:25. > :07:28.tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring
:07:29. > :07:36.this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made
:07:37. > :07:38.available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do
:07:39. > :07:43.we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired
:07:44. > :07:46.or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being
:07:47. > :07:50.led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate
:07:51. > :07:56.on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the
:07:57. > :08:00.attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in
:08:01. > :08:03.Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin
:08:04. > :08:09.Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last
:08:10. > :08:14.year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved
:08:15. > :08:20.have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of
:08:21. > :08:24.them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians
:08:25. > :08:28.in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a
:08:29. > :08:31.gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of
:08:32. > :08:35.attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at
:08:36. > :08:39.least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well.
:08:40. > :08:43.Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those
:08:44. > :08:47.involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is
:08:48. > :08:52.going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we?
:08:53. > :08:57.Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least
:08:58. > :09:02.the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the
:09:03. > :09:07.only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see
:09:08. > :09:12.in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for
:09:13. > :09:17.example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the
:09:18. > :09:20.security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels,
:09:21. > :09:26.Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that
:09:27. > :09:31.could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at
:09:32. > :09:35.least the first indications from what police are saying in London,
:09:36. > :09:40.these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of
:09:41. > :09:44.the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised
:09:45. > :09:49.community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a
:09:50. > :09:53.dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised
:09:54. > :09:57.individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult
:09:58. > :10:02.when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that
:10:03. > :10:06.they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the
:10:07. > :10:09.work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices
:10:10. > :10:14.that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home
:10:15. > :10:19.Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps
:10:20. > :10:23.like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they
:10:24. > :10:26.encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services
:10:27. > :10:32.to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for
:10:33. > :10:37.that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years
:10:38. > :10:41.there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are
:10:42. > :10:45.becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more
:10:46. > :10:48.and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators,
:10:49. > :10:52.and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the
:10:53. > :10:56.ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not
:10:57. > :11:01.when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board,
:11:02. > :11:05.for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have
:11:06. > :11:08.to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of
:11:09. > :11:11.these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a
:11:12. > :11:19.more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is
:11:20. > :11:24.certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying
:11:25. > :11:32.to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree
:11:33. > :11:35.certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative
:11:36. > :11:39.solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide
:11:40. > :11:44.but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done
:11:45. > :11:46.to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of
:11:47. > :11:52.communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our
:11:53. > :11:53.lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much.
:11:54. > :11:57.Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House
:11:58. > :12:04.What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of
:12:05. > :12:07.Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very
:12:08. > :12:16.courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to
:12:17. > :12:21.be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident
:12:22. > :12:24.of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but
:12:25. > :12:30.also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already
:12:31. > :12:37.under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and
:12:38. > :12:45.security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get
:12:46. > :12:48.reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary
:12:49. > :12:51.security director, and just as security matters in parliament are
:12:52. > :12:55.kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as
:12:56. > :13:00.a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the
:13:01. > :13:04.issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling
:13:05. > :13:07.events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their
:13:08. > :13:13.lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is
:13:14. > :13:16.it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate,
:13:17. > :13:22.where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening
:13:23. > :13:27.for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led
:13:28. > :13:34.to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last
:13:35. > :13:38.couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have
:13:39. > :13:42.actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would
:13:43. > :13:46.expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security
:13:47. > :13:52.matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at
:13:53. > :13:57.all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the
:13:58. > :14:01.security authorities and in particular for the police and direct
:14:02. > :14:08.command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it
:14:09. > :14:12.because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers
:14:13. > :14:16.this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no
:14:17. > :14:19.position to comment on the details of the operation but my
:14:20. > :14:25.understanding is that the number of people available is what the police
:14:26. > :14:29.and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and
:14:30. > :14:34.that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it
:14:35. > :14:40.not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left
:14:41. > :14:44.unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so
:14:45. > :14:51.that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able
:14:52. > :14:56.to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that
:14:57. > :15:01.case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't
:15:02. > :15:03.yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody
:15:04. > :15:09.involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who
:15:10. > :15:15.was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time.
:15:16. > :15:19.We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were
:15:20. > :15:25.concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the
:15:26. > :15:29.attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with
:15:30. > :15:33.a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it
:15:34. > :15:38.is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be
:15:39. > :15:42.pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it.
:15:43. > :15:46.To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the
:15:47. > :15:50.witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what
:15:51. > :15:54.happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any
:15:55. > :15:58.changes need to be made in light of that.
:15:59. > :16:07.We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence
:16:08. > :16:11.Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced
:16:12. > :16:16.the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details
:16:17. > :16:19.but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have
:16:20. > :16:25.been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has
:16:26. > :16:30.been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a
:16:31. > :16:35.so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the
:16:36. > :16:44.Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this
:16:45. > :16:49.simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that
:16:50. > :16:57.is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader
:16:58. > :17:04.of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals
:17:05. > :17:09.who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by
:17:10. > :17:13.the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in
:17:14. > :17:18.public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been
:17:19. > :17:21.reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it
:17:22. > :17:28.raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions
:17:29. > :17:35.should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are
:17:36. > :17:39.kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both
:17:40. > :17:45.in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the
:17:46. > :17:49.palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the
:17:50. > :17:56.perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was
:17:57. > :18:00.a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at
:18:01. > :18:13.carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed
:18:14. > :18:18.guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to
:18:19. > :18:21.look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing.
:18:22. > :18:25.There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't
:18:26. > :18:29.know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will
:18:30. > :18:36.find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If
:18:37. > :18:39.you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to
:18:40. > :18:44.be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed
:18:45. > :18:49.accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about
:18:50. > :18:53.lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is
:18:54. > :18:57.important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview
:18:58. > :19:02.of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered
:19:03. > :19:07.view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will
:19:08. > :19:12.be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins
:19:13. > :19:17.our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on
:19:18. > :19:21.Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper
:19:22. > :19:26.that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's
:19:27. > :19:33.not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts
:19:34. > :19:38.of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the
:19:39. > :19:43.commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime
:19:44. > :19:49.Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has
:19:50. > :19:53.been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It
:19:54. > :20:01.doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational
:20:02. > :20:05.mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an
:20:06. > :20:11.agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies
:20:12. > :20:14.that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police
:20:15. > :20:20.cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all
:20:21. > :20:24.countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it
:20:25. > :20:31.will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that?
:20:32. > :20:36.Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context
:20:37. > :20:40.of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the
:20:41. > :20:45.departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply
:20:46. > :20:50.not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a
:20:51. > :20:53.discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we
:20:54. > :20:58.all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we
:20:59. > :21:00.will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is
:21:01. > :21:17.possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The
:21:18. > :21:20.question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the
:21:21. > :21:22.subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel?
:21:23. > :21:28.Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have
:21:29. > :21:33.to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate
:21:34. > :21:37.the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once
:21:38. > :21:43.David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the
:21:44. > :21:48.national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady
:21:49. > :21:52.progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good
:21:53. > :22:00.piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a
:22:01. > :22:05.substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out
:22:06. > :22:10.some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU
:22:11. > :22:16.programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50
:22:17. > :22:22.billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So
:22:23. > :22:28.50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get
:22:29. > :22:33.into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting
:22:34. > :22:40.very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum
:22:41. > :22:45.there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of
:22:46. > :22:48.separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find
:22:49. > :22:59.out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The
:23:00. > :23:05.Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which
:23:06. > :23:09.is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision
:23:10. > :23:13.of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in
:23:14. > :23:18.a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity
:23:19. > :23:22.and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the
:23:23. > :23:27.Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on
:23:28. > :23:32.Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will
:23:33. > :23:37.see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine
:23:38. > :23:42.thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII
:23:43. > :23:48.powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to
:23:49. > :23:55.avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities
:23:56. > :24:00.Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory
:24:01. > :24:06.footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those
:24:07. > :24:13.EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another
:24:14. > :24:18.regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to
:24:19. > :24:29.have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European
:24:30. > :24:35.regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come
:24:36. > :24:39.in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those
:24:40. > :24:42.powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the
:24:43. > :24:48.parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And
:24:49. > :24:53.if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the
:24:54. > :24:57.Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary
:24:58. > :25:01.legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the
:25:02. > :25:07.constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill
:25:08. > :25:10.and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House
:25:11. > :25:16.of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those
:25:17. > :25:22.powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision.
:25:23. > :25:23.David Lidington, thank you for being with us.
:25:24. > :25:26.So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell.
:25:27. > :25:28.He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party
:25:29. > :25:29.almost three years ago, but yesterday announced
:25:30. > :25:31.that he was quitting to sit as an independent.
:25:32. > :25:33.His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying,
:25:34. > :25:36."Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster".
:25:37. > :25:40.But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell
:25:41. > :25:42.criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as
:25:43. > :25:47.Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage
:25:48. > :25:50.was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell
:25:51. > :25:56.opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign.
:25:57. > :25:58.Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:25:59. > :26:00.accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances
:26:01. > :26:02.of being awarded a knighthood, writing that,
:26:03. > :26:10.Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday,
:26:11. > :26:12.Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU.
:26:13. > :26:15.Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have
:26:16. > :26:18.decided that I will be leaving Ukip."
:26:19. > :26:20.When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014
:26:21. > :26:23.he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election.
:26:24. > :26:26."I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring
:26:27. > :26:35.This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election.
:26:36. > :26:41.We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall.
:26:42. > :26:51.Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your
:26:52. > :26:56.only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at
:26:57. > :27:02.a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not
:27:03. > :27:06.surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the
:27:07. > :27:10.past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage
:27:11. > :27:14.certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime
:27:15. > :27:17.which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had
:27:18. > :27:22.done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering
:27:23. > :27:29.over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a
:27:30. > :27:32.more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he
:27:33. > :27:36.expected to be pushed out your national executive committee
:27:37. > :27:39.tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to
:27:40. > :27:43.answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the
:27:44. > :27:50.last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue
:27:51. > :27:55.surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came
:27:56. > :27:59.out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to
:28:00. > :28:07.answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did
:28:08. > :28:11.jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out
:28:12. > :28:19.of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear
:28:20. > :28:24.is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the
:28:25. > :28:29.party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks,
:28:30. > :28:34.you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a
:28:35. > :28:42.pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party,
:28:43. > :28:58.doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to
:28:59. > :29:02.rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over
:29:03. > :29:05.the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will
:29:06. > :29:09.rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have
:29:10. > :29:15.a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post
:29:16. > :29:19.Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he
:29:20. > :29:23.said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the
:29:24. > :29:29.skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't
:29:30. > :29:35.it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November
:29:36. > :29:38.the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the
:29:39. > :29:42.party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem
:29:43. > :29:48.money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look
:29:49. > :29:52.forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit
:29:53. > :29:59.test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have
:30:00. > :30:02.been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you
:30:03. > :30:09.will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No,
:30:10. > :30:13.not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past,
:30:14. > :30:18.he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that
:30:19. > :30:22.but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for
:30:23. > :30:32.the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be
:30:33. > :30:37.interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster
:30:38. > :30:41.attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's
:30:42. > :30:47.extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like
:30:48. > :30:51.Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I
:30:52. > :30:55.personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I
:30:56. > :31:00.will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem
:31:01. > :31:05.within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the
:31:06. > :31:08.way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr
:31:09. > :31:25.Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the
:31:26. > :31:27.problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate
:31:28. > :31:29.communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would
:31:30. > :31:32.extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in
:31:33. > :31:35.Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But,
:31:36. > :31:38.as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme
:31:39. > :31:42.vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question
:31:43. > :31:46.too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get
:31:47. > :31:50.you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in
:31:51. > :31:54.Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has
:31:55. > :32:01.left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to
:32:02. > :32:03.go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people
:32:04. > :32:07.in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should
:32:08. > :32:13.have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon.
:32:14. > :32:20.Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio.
:32:21. > :32:27.Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are
:32:28. > :32:30.becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted
:32:31. > :32:35.myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to
:32:36. > :32:39.trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons
:32:40. > :32:42.resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the
:32:43. > :32:47.democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran
:32:48. > :32:53.parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here,
:32:54. > :32:56.I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage
:32:57. > :33:04.has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants
:33:05. > :33:09.to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going
:33:10. > :33:13.to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his
:33:14. > :33:17.constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr
:33:18. > :33:24.Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from
:33:25. > :33:26.Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the
:33:27. > :33:32.opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not
:33:33. > :33:36.always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an
:33:37. > :33:41.e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back,
:33:42. > :33:49.overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you
:33:50. > :33:54.are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won,
:33:55. > :33:58.Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June
:33:59. > :34:02.the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be
:34:03. > :34:07.absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is
:34:08. > :34:10.right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the
:34:11. > :34:14.European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one
:34:15. > :34:19.another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline
:34:20. > :34:24.the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I
:34:25. > :34:29.have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge.
:34:30. > :34:33.You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made
:34:34. > :34:37.the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made
:34:38. > :34:41.it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote
:34:42. > :34:45.Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would
:34:46. > :34:51.win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of
:34:52. > :34:58.that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas
:34:59. > :35:01.I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history
:35:02. > :35:05.proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk
:35:06. > :35:09.often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part
:35:10. > :35:13.of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic
:35:14. > :35:18.policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to
:35:19. > :35:21.sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave
:35:22. > :35:28.certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They
:35:29. > :35:34.freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel
:35:35. > :35:38.still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for
:35:39. > :35:41.Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and
:35:42. > :35:47.we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like
:35:48. > :35:51.Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is
:35:52. > :35:55.to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why
:35:56. > :35:58.can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but
:35:59. > :36:03.you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this
:36:04. > :36:07.than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten
:36:08. > :36:11.years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in
:36:12. > :36:15.2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in
:36:16. > :36:20.2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left
:36:21. > :36:23.us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically
:36:24. > :36:28.gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her
:36:29. > :36:33.record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam,
:36:34. > :36:37.nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of
:36:38. > :36:40.thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the
:36:41. > :36:44.size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of
:36:45. > :36:48.thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The
:36:49. > :36:52.problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the
:36:53. > :36:56.argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted
:36:57. > :37:00.her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until
:37:01. > :37:05.she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen,
:37:06. > :37:08.just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past.
:37:09. > :37:13.Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee
:37:14. > :37:16.into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what
:37:17. > :37:25.people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself
:37:26. > :37:29.with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip
:37:30. > :37:33.to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will
:37:34. > :37:38.come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit
:37:39. > :37:41.Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill
:37:42. > :37:46.and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas
:37:47. > :37:52.Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in
:37:53. > :37:57.the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were
:37:58. > :38:00.Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a
:38:01. > :38:06.Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a
:38:07. > :38:10.Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a
:38:11. > :38:13.party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree
:38:14. > :38:21.with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into
:38:22. > :38:25.2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote
:38:26. > :38:29.Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you
:38:30. > :38:34.fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and
:38:35. > :38:48.see. Very well! Thank you both very much.
:38:49. > :38:57.The council accused of peddling propaganda by spending a quarter
:38:58. > :39:04.But here to tell nothing but the whole truth in the studio
:39:05. > :39:06.this week are two of our most experienced politicians.
:39:07. > :39:08.Nigel Evans is the Conservative MP for Ribble Valley,
:39:09. > :39:23.and Graham Stringer the Labour MP for Blackley and Broughton.
:39:24. > :39:28.And died were talking about the attack on Westminster.
:39:29. > :39:31.was removed from an address in West Didsbury on Friday
:39:32. > :39:33.as the number of arrests across the country in relation
:39:34. > :39:42.to the attack by Khalid Masood reached 11.
:39:43. > :39:48.Graham, this story, very quickly moved to bowl on Westminster to our
:39:49. > :39:52.doorstep in the north-west. As a mentor to MP, are you worried this
:39:53. > :39:58.is something we will see more of? We her seeing less of it. If you
:39:59. > :40:02.remember, I think it must be about... 13 or 14 years ago, there
:40:03. > :40:11.was a police constable murdered in my constituency by extremists in the
:40:12. > :40:14.community and I think the police worry, the special Branch worry from
:40:15. > :40:19.time to time when a brief to me, but they seem to have got on top of it.
:40:20. > :40:23.So, yes, obviously, there are problems. There are some people who
:40:24. > :40:28.take extreme views and it's important that we both educate
:40:29. > :40:32.communicate and inform those people. But you feel as a country we are
:40:33. > :40:36.more in control then we worked ten years ago? You asked me about
:40:37. > :40:39.Manchester which I know in detail. I do think, to use an old-fashioned
:40:40. > :40:51.word, there is more harmony it is not solved, it will be a long
:40:52. > :40:53.time before it is solved. It is being affected by major
:40:54. > :40:58.international events, but I think things are better than they were 13
:40:59. > :41:03.or 14 years ago. Bon Nuttal said that Muslim communities must do far
:41:04. > :41:07.remit the Reed midst. Is that an remit the Reed midst. Is that an
:41:08. > :41:10.uncomfortable truth or is that just an inflammatory and dangerous
:41:11. > :41:18.commentary? I think it's inflammatory, to be honest. I think
:41:19. > :41:21.the day after the terrorist attack, when MPs from all political
:41:22. > :41:25.persuasions spoke about what was behind this and, indeed, it was
:41:26. > :41:30.emphasised by one Labour MP that this has nothing to do with Islam.
:41:31. > :41:33.If this person followed that religion, if he was a proper Muslim,
:41:34. > :41:38.he would not have murdered because Islam is a religion of peace and
:41:39. > :41:41.that is exactly what it is. And yet the last two terror attacks in this
:41:42. > :41:46.country whereby Islamic fundamentalists. Yes, this is
:41:47. > :41:50.home-grown murdering terrorists which is beyond the wit of any of us
:41:51. > :41:54.in this room to work out why somebody is able to become
:41:55. > :41:58.radicalised and then mowed down innocent people walking along
:41:59. > :42:02.Westminster Bridge, including children and old age pensioners and
:42:03. > :42:06.then to come in and start a police officer. None of us can get our
:42:07. > :42:13.heads around it but I will pay tribute to the emergency services
:42:14. > :42:17.but quite frankly, he was shot dead very quickly and those other
:42:18. > :42:23.emergency services. The police team were there in a matter of minutes.
:42:24. > :42:26.Very, very quickly. They are trying to keep an eye on extremist
:42:27. > :42:29.round-the-clock Buddhism is virtually impossible. You see the
:42:30. > :42:35.situation has improved in Manchester but is it an inevitable part of
:42:36. > :42:39.modern life? I think when MPs talk privately, we have always known that
:42:40. > :42:47.we are a prime target for extremists. It's happened, it is
:42:48. > :42:50.bad, people lost their lives and that is appalling and a tragedy. It
:42:51. > :42:54.the security improvements that have the security improvements that have
:42:55. > :42:58.been made over the last ten years... When I first became an MP, you could
:42:59. > :43:02.walk straight in! Part of the charm of Westminster is once you are in,
:43:03. > :43:08.it feels very free. And we need to get that balance right. The police
:43:09. > :43:13.are on the very front-line and they are part of not just protecting us
:43:14. > :43:13.but also welcoming visitors who come in their thousands. Absolutely a
:43:14. > :43:15.level that change. Next - he's probably our most high
:43:16. > :43:18.profile MP and it looks like he's here for at least
:43:19. > :43:20.a little longer. George Osborne started Friday
:43:21. > :43:22.planting trees in his Tatton constituency before the local party
:43:23. > :43:25.gave him their backing That's despite his new job,
:43:26. > :43:30.starting in May, as editor But they did say they'd
:43:31. > :43:35.look at the situation And Councillor Rod Menlove
:43:36. > :43:49.was at the meeting and joins Thank you for joining us on a Sunday
:43:50. > :43:52.morning. George Osborne has told us he was grateful to receive
:43:53. > :43:58.overwhelming support from the party faithful on Friday night. Is that
:43:59. > :44:01.the case? Was overwhelming? It was more than overwhelming. I imagine it
:44:02. > :44:06.was actually unanimous. There were close to 100 people there and these
:44:07. > :44:13.are quite high profile people, these are intelligent people. They asked
:44:14. > :44:14.intelligent questions and gave George several support at the end of
:44:15. > :44:17.the meeting. Another Conservative I the meeting. Another Conservative I
:44:18. > :44:22.spoke to who was there said there was an agreement that his
:44:23. > :44:24.performance will be reviewed, as always, in your's time that he is
:44:25. > :44:31.pleased that that is there because it said the constituency could be
:44:32. > :44:38.reduced. He must prove what he said that he can be a good constituency
:44:39. > :44:42.MP. To my recollection, it wasn't that formal. I mean, clearly, George
:44:43. > :44:47.every year when he comes to the AGM gives us a rundown of what he has
:44:48. > :44:51.been doing and let us not forget he was six years as Chancellor of the
:44:52. > :44:57.Exchequer, 820 47 job if ever there was one. He has a number of jobs
:44:58. > :45:00.that frankly, the time devoted to those will be less than it was at
:45:01. > :45:05.the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I see no problem. I am on the senior
:45:06. > :45:06.management team within the organisation. We will understand
:45:07. > :45:11.what is happening throughout the year and George will come to the
:45:12. > :45:16.AGM... I think he has missed one in the last 16 years because he was
:45:17. > :45:20.called to something in America. So he will be there. Finally, do you
:45:21. > :45:23.see the ethical distinction between being chats of the exchequer,
:45:24. > :45:30.serving the public, and working towards a profit making newspaper?
:45:31. > :45:37.None whatsoever. What is the next question? Fair enough! Thank you. No
:45:38. > :45:40.ethical problem with that whatsoever, would you agree? I think
:45:41. > :45:49.there is a massive political problem. Make me be clear. I think
:45:50. > :45:52.that MPs can have a second jobs, people keep their businesses going,
:45:53. > :45:58.that is understandable. George is taking the Mickey really and there
:45:59. > :46:02.is a direct political contract. As editor of the London standards, he
:46:03. > :46:05.has said he wants to build a voice for London people. He is
:46:06. > :46:10.representing a northern seat. There will be direct conflict over the
:46:11. > :46:14.next four or five years in wearer Crosswell to get the investment or
:46:15. > :46:19.HS2 is completed. Which side will be on? A London newspaper or the North?
:46:20. > :46:25.I thought he was going to say he was going to edit the Manchester evening
:46:26. > :46:30.News as well! He could be head of the Forestry Commission, why not?
:46:31. > :46:34.There is a contract between an MP and his constituency represented by
:46:35. > :46:38.the Association. They seen to be very happy. I think it is probably
:46:39. > :46:42.for George. People want to do a decent job as a member of
:46:43. > :46:48.Parliament. He was once that to suffer. It's a suck it and see if he
:46:49. > :46:52.is able to have these other commitments and maintain his
:46:53. > :46:56.service, public service to his constituency, then he will carry on.
:46:57. > :46:59.But Nigel is right, it is down to party members if they want to be in
:47:00. > :47:04.the process of deselection and they are perfectly happy, that's how it
:47:05. > :47:09.works. It is down to his party colleagues who are putting him up
:47:10. > :47:16.and the electorate has a pretty good history of getting rid of MPs.
:47:17. > :47:24.That's true! Maybe Nigel can't say, but I think the boundary
:47:25. > :47:28.reorganisations, ie will be shouting for the north-west. He wants a seat
:47:29. > :47:31.in London and he wants to get out of Cheshire. I was looking at
:47:32. > :47:34.Parliamentary business this week. There are debates on international
:47:35. > :47:37.affairs, women's welfare, health and social care which will happen in the
:47:38. > :47:41.morning this week in the chamber and unless Mr Hart. He is going to miss
:47:42. > :47:46.them and his priority will be a newspaper. Is that right, is that
:47:47. > :47:51.ethically correct? The outlaws of the house have changed. On a
:47:52. > :47:54.Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday there are morning sittings now which
:47:55. > :47:56.never used to happen in the old days when it was half past two. But
:47:57. > :48:00.George himself will make that decision. He is a decent bloke and
:48:01. > :48:05.if he thinks that somehow or other at the outside interests are
:48:06. > :48:10.conflicting with his response but to his constituency, he will make that
:48:11. > :48:15.decision. But everyone will be thinking, what if every MP took a
:48:16. > :48:24.job where they were busy in the morning? Our democracy would suffer.
:48:25. > :48:26.As long as they are having the voice of their constituency, there is a
:48:27. > :48:32.big worry. These are huge figures. He will earn more than ?1 million a
:48:33. > :48:38.year with what he is doing and some... One of those jobs in
:48:39. > :48:42.particular... Does that matter? Is an absolute terms or six jobs
:48:43. > :48:46.mattering, but decisions he could've taken as Chancellor, can we be at
:48:47. > :48:49.least certain that anybody, whether the energy secretary or the
:48:50. > :48:53.Chancellor, when they make those decisions, haven't got there I am
:48:54. > :48:57.getting a job afterwards? That is where the conflict and the influence
:48:58. > :49:00.comes in. There is another thing that in all the debates you have
:49:01. > :49:03.mentioned, when George was Chancellor of the Exchequer, he
:49:04. > :49:07.would not have been in the chamber for those debates either because he
:49:08. > :49:12.was busy running the economy. He was running the economy for the public.
:49:13. > :49:16.MPs look at the parliamentary date and do what they can. If they are
:49:17. > :49:17.ministers, they are sometimes dragged away to other things. We
:49:18. > :49:19.have to leave it there. So no imminent byelection in Tatton,
:49:20. > :49:21.but plenty more elections On the 4th of May,
:49:22. > :49:24.Greater Manchester and the Liverpool City Region -
:49:25. > :49:27.that's Merseyside plus Halton - On the same day,
:49:28. > :49:30.Lancashire and Cumbria And, although the
:49:31. > :49:34.date's not yet been confirmed, the by-election for
:49:35. > :49:37.Manchester Gorton, following the death of Labour
:49:38. > :49:40.MP Sir Gerald Kaufman, Well, this week, the former Labour
:49:41. > :49:47.and Respect Party MP George Galloway And Labour selected its candidate,
:49:48. > :49:52.the current MEP Afzal Khan, We asked our reporter
:49:53. > :49:56.Claire Hamilton to head to Gorton soon the people of Gorton will get
:49:57. > :50:07.to choose their next. Farzana Ajazz has sold fruit
:50:08. > :50:13.and veg at Longsight Market She says her customers
:50:14. > :50:18.are seeing food prices rise and their pay packets squeezed
:50:19. > :50:22.and that will influence their vote. It's very hard to explain to
:50:23. > :50:26.customers, you know, Obviously, coming out
:50:27. > :50:32.of Europe has not helped. I've always found that
:50:33. > :50:34.if you're a Labour Party supporter, at the end of the day,
:50:35. > :50:37.they do look after people in our class, meaning
:50:38. > :50:39.the middle-class, lower class. They look after people
:50:40. > :50:44.who have less money. The political landscape
:50:45. > :50:46.has changed a lot since Gerald Kaufman was elected
:50:47. > :50:50.MP for Gorton in 1983. With Brexit and Jeremy
:50:51. > :50:52.Corbyn in the mix, the hopeful recipient of
:50:53. > :50:54.this card won't be taking
:50:55. > :50:56.anything for granted. God forgive me because
:50:57. > :51:00.I've never ever been a Tory. I've always voted Labour,
:51:01. > :51:03.like you say, but now, because it's so rubbish,
:51:04. > :51:08.I'm supporting Theresa May. I think amongst the
:51:09. > :51:10.Asian community and, like, my parents, there's always
:51:11. > :51:14.been a bias towards Labour, I think they've always gone
:51:15. > :51:17.with Labour sink due to the benefits and other things
:51:18. > :51:20.that the Labour have always Traditionally,
:51:21. > :51:25.we've been Labour, but... George Galloway says he'll stand
:51:26. > :51:30.as an independent in Gorton. The Liberal Democrats reckon they'll
:51:31. > :51:34.benefit if he splits the Labour vote and the Greens, who came
:51:35. > :51:37.second here in 2015, Can Labour's 24,000
:51:38. > :51:42.majority be dented? We sought after the
:51:43. > :51:46.Iraq war in 2005, you know, Gerald Kaufman had to fight really
:51:47. > :51:49.hard to hold off a challenge from the Liberal Democrats
:51:50. > :51:52.in this constituency so even though you think of it as safe Labour
:51:53. > :51:55.territory, all bets are off right now and it is going to be
:51:56. > :51:59.a really bitter fight, I think. The date for the Gorton
:52:00. > :52:02.by-election hasn't been set. There's a chance it
:52:03. > :52:04.will be two elections for the price of one
:52:05. > :52:06.on the 4th of May when Greater Manchester
:52:07. > :52:11.elects its first ever metro mayor. And here's the list of candidates
:52:12. > :52:14.who've declared they're standing so far, though obviously
:52:15. > :52:17.more could join them. And we expect to get a date for that
:52:18. > :52:30.election confirmed this week. Graham, Andrew Russell predicted
:52:31. > :52:34.this will be a bitter fight. I went to George Galloway's want on
:52:35. > :52:41.Wednesday. It will certainly be lively. All by-elections are likely.
:52:42. > :52:44.I'm grateful that I never was a by-election candidate. I think it
:52:45. > :52:49.will be wisely. I don't welcome George Galloway's involvement in it.
:52:50. > :52:57.in by-elections of upping the in by-elections of upping the
:52:58. > :53:02.temperature. I don't welcome that. Well, people do like it. There was a
:53:03. > :53:08.reasonably good turn out there. He talked about Israel and the West
:53:09. > :53:11.Bank and Kashmir, these issues will appeal to Asian voters important.
:53:12. > :53:16.We've seen it damaged with the party in the past in Tower Hamlets. We
:53:17. > :53:21.have a candidate who has been Lord Mayor, Afzal Khan has been Lord
:53:22. > :53:25.Mayor of Manchester. He is respected in the Muslim community, the white
:53:26. > :53:31.community. He has spent all his political career trying to unite you
:53:32. > :53:37.and Galloway has spent all his time trying to divide. It could divide
:53:38. > :53:41.the labour vote. We have the Liberal Democrat part the candidates say her
:53:42. > :53:48.odds of winning have been slashed because Galloway entered the fray.
:53:49. > :53:50.Are you worried that the student population, the remaining ticket
:53:51. > :53:54.from the Liberal Democrats, could also split the vote? I think in any
:53:55. > :54:01.by-election, the more candidates, the more split votes. When Jackie is
:54:02. > :54:05.right from the Liberal Democrats, there is substantial support for the
:54:06. > :54:08.Labour Party both from the white community and those people from
:54:09. > :54:16.Bangladesh and Pakistan who have been here for generations. I don't
:54:17. > :54:23.23,000 majority? But I think Labour 23,000 majority? But I think Labour
:54:24. > :54:30.can look for words to Afzal Khan as the MP. You'll be lucky to get
:54:31. > :54:34.25,000 voting overall! Always low turnouts. You must be upset to hear
:54:35. > :54:38.that women say that Theresa May has her fault that time. People do
:54:39. > :54:45.sometimes go with the national leader in by-elections. You never
:54:46. > :54:52.know! Unlike Graham, I have the scars of two by-elections. The 13th
:54:53. > :54:56.safest seat, and I lost it! You can never tell with by-elections. We
:54:57. > :55:00.also don't know who the Conservative candidate is. Six weeks to go and
:55:01. > :55:05.they are still not declared. Do we read into that the Conservatives
:55:06. > :55:10.don't care about this? No, no, no! Not at all! By-elections are strange
:55:11. > :55:14.animals and I think Graham is right not to try and predict the outcome
:55:15. > :55:19.of that except that I don't think... But there is no presence there. We
:55:20. > :55:22.delivered a candidate is. The local association will discuss with the
:55:23. > :55:26.candidate. It will be announced candidate. It will be announced
:55:27. > :55:29.pretty quickly and we will fight a very vigorous campaign. I have no
:55:30. > :55:35.doubt at all. But because by-elections are strange animals and
:55:36. > :55:37.we are more interested in the county elections and the Tories getting
:55:38. > :55:43.control back again of Lancashire, that's what I want to see. Graham,
:55:44. > :55:48.are you worried that the Labour Party are trailing in the polls
:55:49. > :55:53.nationally and have an impact on these local elections, the Keogan
:55:54. > :56:01.affects? Of course I am worried. We are 12 or 15 points behind. Samples
:56:02. > :56:05.go up to 19. And somewhere down to ten, but in the middle. Local
:56:06. > :56:08.elections reflect national opinion polls in Manchester, in the
:56:09. > :56:13.north-west, Labour has done better than in national polls. You cannot
:56:14. > :56:15.totally write them out, but we will try. Made a fourth will be a busy
:56:16. > :56:20.day for all of us. We are briefly day for all of us. We are briefly
:56:21. > :56:24.going to head to the world now where two people have been series the
:56:25. > :56:28.injured and 32 others hurt after buildings collapsed in a suspected
:56:29. > :56:35.gas explosion. Window should in houses were splashed in the blast.
:56:36. > :56:39.Another houses were evacuated. More than 100 people were moved overnight
:56:40. > :56:42.into a nearby church. The local MP Alison McGovern has been with them
:56:43. > :56:46.and joins us now. Allison, thank you for joining us. I know you have been
:56:47. > :56:53.extremely busy through the night. What have you been doing, who have
:56:54. > :56:57.you been speaking to? Well, I live about ten minutes' walk from where
:56:58. > :57:00.this happened so heard it, like everyone else in the Wirral area.
:57:01. > :57:05.People from far away seem to have heard the blast, it was so big. They
:57:06. > :57:09.then came up here last night. Mike constituency office is just along
:57:10. > :57:12.the road from where the blast happens so people have just been
:57:13. > :57:16.trying to take care of those who were evacuated and obviously, the
:57:17. > :57:19.emergency services have been doing a brilliant job in making the area
:57:20. > :57:25.safe and looking after those who were hurt and injured. We also had a
:57:26. > :57:27.brilliant local church open their doors to everybody last night to
:57:28. > :57:32.make sure they were OK and could have access to help. This is a
:57:33. > :57:36.devastating event for us in Wirral but I know this community very, very
:57:37. > :57:43.well and they will pull together and put this right. You know, it was
:57:44. > :57:47.late on at night and this is a very busy area, so if this has happened
:57:48. > :57:51.earlier in the day, the consequences could have been even more
:57:52. > :57:54.significant. But as I say, I know this community very well and they
:57:55. > :57:58.will look after each other. A relief because it could have been so much
:57:59. > :58:05.worse, you're actually right. We don't love exactly what caused it?
:58:06. > :58:08.No, we do not know yet. The police and Fire Service are saying early
:58:09. > :58:13.indications seem to point towards a gas explosion but they are on site
:58:14. > :58:18.is now doing their job to find out the cause and to take care of those
:58:19. > :58:24.people who were affected by this. Businesses in new very here will be
:58:25. > :58:27.significantly affected by this, but as I say, this is a strong community
:58:28. > :58:29.that will look after each other. Then he very much for joining us. I
:58:30. > :58:30.hope you get some rest. The North West has lost 12 local
:58:31. > :58:33.papers in the last two years, including the St Helens Recorder,
:58:34. > :58:35.the Crosby Herald But it's not market forces
:58:36. > :58:38.putting pressure it's the Conservative opposition
:58:39. > :58:42.accusing the Labour council of peddling propaganda
:58:43. > :58:44.through its monthly title, # Read all about it,
:58:45. > :58:56.read all about it It looks like a local
:58:57. > :59:02.paper, but it's produced by the local council at a cost,
:59:03. > :59:04.proponents claim, Opposition Tory councillors
:59:05. > :59:18.aren't impressed. It's a complete waste
:59:19. > :59:20.of public money. This has the potential
:59:21. > :59:22.of detracting some of the advertisements away
:59:23. > :59:24.from our free press. This isn't just
:59:25. > :59:26.a Labour thing, though. Conservative councils
:59:27. > :59:27.have had these type of publications so different
:59:28. > :59:29.councils must see a need. Well, I don't think that that
:59:30. > :59:32.need has been proven Wirral already has two
:59:33. > :59:34.free local papers. Government rules state that any
:59:35. > :59:38.council papers can only be published quarterly but this one
:59:39. > :59:41.here has been printed every month. Labour says
:59:42. > :59:43.it's been paid for by saving on advertising costs
:59:44. > :59:46.elsewhere. We're actually spending less
:59:47. > :59:48.and being able to put money And is it propaganda as opposed
:59:49. > :59:53.to a free press which is It's a great press
:59:54. > :59:59.and they hold us to account This is about getting information
:00:00. > :00:08.to residents that they really need. Competition from council run papers
:00:09. > :00:10.is just one challenge Time to tackle those
:00:11. > :00:16.in power is limited. It really is almost impossible,
:00:17. > :00:20.I think, for local paper journalists to really get under the skin
:00:21. > :00:24.of their local councils and increasingly they're relying
:00:25. > :00:28.on council press releases and often they just go into those
:00:29. > :00:31.newspapers unamended. One new initiative designed
:00:32. > :00:34.to help that is the BBC funding 150 new local democracy
:00:35. > :00:38.reporters to cover council meetings and public bodies for
:00:39. > :00:42.all the local media. You and me, the licence payer,
:00:43. > :00:45.I kind of making up for a failure But I think it's got
:00:46. > :00:54.to be a positive. As sales of papers decline,
:00:55. > :00:56.can websites fill the gap? Angie runs an online only
:00:57. > :00:58.operation in Liverpool. If it's a good story,
:00:59. > :01:00.you need good old-fashioned reporting to enable it to be told
:01:01. > :01:03.whether that's a newspaper, The message and the story will out,
:01:04. > :01:09.whatever your medium. Do you feel there is
:01:10. > :01:12.an appetite online for complicated local politics
:01:13. > :01:13.stories, for example? The appetite may be
:01:14. > :01:19.there, but is the money? Or will the likes of
:01:20. > :01:21.the Wirral View further muddy the waters for
:01:22. > :01:30.the world of local media? Many thanks to
:01:31. > :01:36.Graham Stringer and Nigel Evans. Graham Evans and Lisa Nandy
:01:37. > :01:39.join us next week. Now I'll hand you back
:01:40. > :01:43.to Andrew Neil in London. can see you nodding in agreement but
:01:44. > :01:45.we don't have any more time! Thank you both for coming in, Andrew, back
:01:46. > :01:51.to you. So yesterday the European Union
:01:52. > :02:08.celebrated its 60th birthday at a party in Rome, the city
:02:09. > :02:11.where the founding document Leaders of 27 EU countries
:02:12. > :02:15.were there to mark the occasion - overshadowing it, though,
:02:16. > :02:17.the continued terrorist threat, And on Wednesday Theresa May,
:02:18. > :02:20.who wasn't in Rome yesterday, will trigger Article 50,
:02:21. > :02:22.formally starting The President of the European
:02:23. > :02:25.Council, Donald Tusk, made an appeal for unity
:02:26. > :02:31.at the gathering. Today in Rome, we are renewing
:02:32. > :02:36.the unique alliance of free nations that was initiated 60 years ago
:02:37. > :02:44.by our great predecessors. At that time, they did not
:02:45. > :02:47.discuss multiple speeds, they did not devise exits,
:02:48. > :02:51.but despite all the tragic circumstances of the recent history
:02:52. > :03:11.they placed all their faith Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that
:03:12. > :03:15.has the Council of ministers, and on that council where every member of
:03:16. > :03:20.the EU sits he is an important figure in what is now about to
:03:21. > :03:26.happen. We have got to negotiate our divorce terms, we've got to agree a
:03:27. > :03:29.new free trade deal, new crime-fighting arrangements, we've
:03:30. > :03:35.got to repatriate 50 international trade agreements, and all of that
:03:36. > :03:41.has to be ratified within two years, by 27 other countries. Can that
:03:42. > :03:45.really happen?! I don't think it is inconceivable because it is in the
:03:46. > :03:48.interests of those 27 EU member states to try and negotiate a deal
:03:49. > :03:53.that we can all live with, because that would be preferable to Britain
:03:54. > :03:57.crashing out within two years. But I think this is why Labour's position
:03:58. > :04:01.is becoming increasingly incoherent. Keir Starmer has briefed today that
:04:02. > :04:05.he will be making a speech tomorrow setting out six conditions which he
:04:06. > :04:07.wants the deal to meet, otherwise Labour won't vote for it, but if
:04:08. > :04:28.Labour doesn't vote for it that doesn't mean we will be able to
:04:29. > :04:30.negotiate an extension, that would be incredibly difficult and require
:04:31. > :04:33.the consent of each of the 27 member states, so if Labour votes against
:04:34. > :04:36.it we will just crash out, it is effectively Labour saying no deal is
:04:37. > :04:38.better than a poor deal, which is not supposed to be their position.
:04:39. > :04:41.Labour's position may be incoherent but I was not asking about their
:04:42. > :04:43.position, I was asking about the Government's position. The man
:04:44. > :04:45.heading the Badila said he wants it ready by October next year so that
:04:46. > :04:47.it can go through the ratification process, people looking at this
:04:48. > :04:52.would think it is Mission: Impossible. It seems impossible to
:04:53. > :04:59.me to be done in that time. The fact that it is 27 countries, the whole
:05:00. > :05:02.of the European Parliament as well, there will be too many people
:05:03. > :05:08.throbbing spanners in the works and quite rightly. We have embarked on
:05:09. > :05:12.something that is truly terrible and disastrous, and the imagery we can
:05:13. > :05:17.have of those 27 countries celebrating together 60 years of the
:05:18. > :05:20.most extraordinary successful movement for peace, for shared
:05:21. > :05:27.European values, and others not there... We were not there at the
:05:28. > :05:34.start either, and we are not there now! And we have been bad partners
:05:35. > :05:38.while we were inside, but now that we are leaving... They did not look
:05:39. > :05:43.like it was a birthday party to me! I think it was, there was a sense of
:05:44. > :05:48.renewal, Europe exists as a place envied in the world for its values,
:05:49. > :05:52.for its peacefulness, that is why people flocked to its borders, that
:05:53. > :05:59.is why they come here. Can you look at the agenda that faces the UK
:06:00. > :06:03.Government and EU 27, is it not possible, in fact even likely, that
:06:04. > :06:10.as the process comes to an end they will have to agree on a number of
:06:11. > :06:15.areas of transitional arrangements? I think they will and they will have
:06:16. > :06:18.to agree that soon, I would not be surprised if sometime soon there is
:06:19. > :06:21.an understanding is not a formal decision that this is a process that
:06:22. > :06:26.will extend over something closer to buy or seven than two years. On
:06:27. > :06:29.Wednesday article 50 will be filed and there will be lots of excitement
:06:30. > :06:34.and hubbub but nothing concrete can happen for a while. Elections in
:06:35. > :06:38.France in May, elections in Germany which could really result in a
:06:39. > :06:49.change of Government... That is the big change, Mrs Merkel might not be
:06:50. > :06:53.there by October. And who foresaw that a few months ago? So you might
:06:54. > :06:55.be into 28 Dean before you are into the substantive discussions about
:06:56. > :06:57.how much market access or regulatory observance. I cannot see it being
:06:58. > :07:01.completed in two years. I could see, if negotiations are not too
:07:02. > :07:05.acrimonious, that transitional agreement taking place. Let's look
:07:06. > :07:09.at the timetable again. The council doesn't meet until the end of April,
:07:10. > :07:12.it meets in the middle of the French elections, the first round will have
:07:13. > :07:16.taken place, they will need a second round so not much can happen.
:07:17. > :07:22.President Hollande will be representing France, then the new
:07:23. > :07:27.French government, if it is Marine le Pen all bets are off, but even if
:07:28. > :07:31.it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a party, he will not have a majority,
:07:32. > :07:36.the French will take a long while to sort out themselves. Then it is
:07:37. > :07:39.summer, we are off to the Cote d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian
:07:40. > :07:45.elite, then we come back from that and the Germans are in an election,
:07:46. > :07:49.it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr
:07:50. > :08:02.Schultz, he may have to try to form a difficult green red coalition,
:08:03. > :08:05.that would take a while. Before you know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and
:08:06. > :08:08.no substance has taken place, yet we are then less than a year before
:08:09. > :08:10.this has to be decided. It is a big task and I'm sure Jana is right that
:08:11. > :08:13.there will be transitional arrangements and not everything will
:08:14. > :08:17.be concluded in that two year timetable, but in some respects what
:08:18. > :08:21.you have described helps those of us on the Eurosceptic site because it
:08:22. > :08:25.means they cannot really be a meaningful parliamentary vote on the
:08:26. > :08:29.terms of the deal because nothing is going to be agreed quickly enough
:08:30. > :08:33.for them to be able to go back and agree something else if Parliament
:08:34. > :08:36.rejects it, so when the Government eventually have something ready to
:08:37. > :08:42.bring before Parliament it will be a take it or leave it boat. How
:08:43. > :08:45.extraordinary that people who have campaigned. Indeed give us our
:08:46. > :08:48.country back and say, isn't it wonderful, we won't have a
:08:49. > :08:53.meaningful boat for our parliamentarians of the most
:08:54. > :08:57.important... We don't know what the negotiation, the package is, day by
:08:58. > :09:00.day we see more and more complicated areas nobody ever thought about,
:09:01. > :09:07.nobody mentioned during the campaign, all of which has to be
:09:08. > :09:11.resolved and the European Council and the negotiators say nothing is
:09:12. > :09:16.agreed until everything is agreed. You lead us into a catastrophe.
:09:17. > :09:20.There will be plenty of opportunity for Parliament to have its say
:09:21. > :09:24.following the introduction of the Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if
:09:25. > :09:29.there will be no Parliamentary time devoted. The final package is what
:09:30. > :09:34.counts. We have two years to blog about this!
:09:35. > :09:44.There was a big Proview -- pro-EU march yesterday... I was there!
:09:45. > :09:48.Polly Toynbee was there, down to Parliament Square, lots of people
:09:49. > :09:52.there marching in favour of the European Union. We can see the EU
:09:53. > :09:59.flags there on flags, lots of national flags as well, the British
:10:00. > :10:07.one. Polly, is it the aim of people like you still to stop Brexit, or to
:10:08. > :10:13.soften Brexit? I think the aim is for the best you can possibly do to
:10:14. > :10:16.limit the damage. Of course, if it happens that once people have had a
:10:17. > :10:20.chance to see how much they were lied to during the campaign and how
:10:21. > :10:24.dreadful the deal is likely to be, if it happens that enough people in
:10:25. > :10:30.the population have changed their minds, then maybe... There is no
:10:31. > :10:33.sign up yet. But we have not even begun, people have not begun to
:10:34. > :10:38.confront what it is going to mean. Wait and see. I think it is just
:10:39. > :10:43.being as close as we can. Is that credible, do you think, to stop it
:10:44. > :10:47.or to ameliorate it in terms of the Remainers? I think it is far more
:10:48. > :10:52.credible to try and stop it but even then the scope is limited. It is
:10:53. > :10:53.fairly apparent Theresa May's interpretation of the referendum is
:10:54. > :11:15.the country wants an end to free movement, there is probably no way
:11:16. > :11:17.of doing that inside the single market. She also wants external
:11:18. > :11:20.trade deals, no way of doing that outside the customs unit, said the
:11:21. > :11:22.only night you can depend if you are pro-European is, let's not leave
:11:23. > :11:24.without any trade pact, at least let's meet Canada and have a
:11:25. > :11:27.formalised trade agreement. The idea of ace -- of a very soft exit is
:11:28. > :11:30.gone now because the public really did want an end to free movement and
:11:31. > :11:32.the Government really does want external trade deals. It depends
:11:33. > :11:40.what changes in Europe. I think the momentum behind the Remoaning
:11:41. > :11:45.movement will move away. One of the banners I saw being held up
:11:46. > :11:48.yesterday by a young boy on the news was, don't put my daddy on a boat.
:11:49. > :11:53.It gets a lot of its moral force from the uncertainty surrounding the
:11:54. > :11:58.fate of EU nationals here and our resident in the remainder of the EU
:11:59. > :12:01.and I think David Lidington is right that it will be concluded quite
:12:02. > :12:06.quickly once negotiations start and that will take a lot of the heat and
:12:07. > :12:10.momentum out of the remaining movement. Why didn't Theresa May
:12:11. > :12:15.allow that amendment that said, we will do that, as an act of
:12:16. > :12:19.generosity, we will say, of course those European citizens here are
:12:20. > :12:23.welcome to stay? It would have been such a good opening move in the
:12:24. > :12:29.negotiations, instead of which she blocked it. It does not augur well.
:12:30. > :12:32.I have interviewed many Tories about this and put that point to them but
:12:33. > :12:40.they often say the Prime minister's job is to look after UK citizen in
:12:41. > :12:45.the EU... Bargaining chips, I think you have to be generous and you have
:12:46. > :12:47.to wish you people in Spain and everywhere else where there are
:12:48. > :12:51.British citizens would have responded. The British Government
:12:52. > :12:54.did try and raise that with their EU counterparts and were told, we
:12:55. > :12:58.cannot begin to talk about that until article 50 has been triggered.
:12:59. > :13:02.Next week we will be able to talk about it. How generous it would have
:13:03. > :13:07.been, we would have started on a better note. Didn't happen, we will
:13:08. > :13:11.see what happens next with EU citizens. That is it for today, the
:13:12. > :13:13.Daily Politics will be back tomorrow at midday and every day next week on
:13:14. > :13:16.BBC Two as always. And there's also a Question Time
:13:17. > :13:18.special live tomorrow night from Birmingham -
:13:19. > :13:20.with guests including the Brexit Secretary David Davis,
:13:21. > :13:22.Labour's Keir Starmer, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage
:13:23. > :13:24.and the SNP's Alex Salmond - I'll be back next week
:13:25. > :13:30.at 11am here on BBC One. Until then, remember -
:13:31. > :13:34.if it's Sunday, it's