02/04/2017

:00:36. > :00:39.It's Sunday Morning and this is the Sunday Politics.

:00:40. > :00:42.The Government has insisted that Gibraltar will not be bargained

:00:43. > :00:47.But the territory's chief minister says the EU's proposal

:00:48. > :00:52.After a momentous week, Britain's journey out

:00:53. > :00:56.Can the Prime Minister satisfy her critics at home

:00:57. > :01:01.We speak to the former Conservative leader, Michael Howard.

:01:02. > :01:04.And we have the lowdown on next month's local elections -

:01:05. > :01:07.what exactly is up for grabs, who's going up and who's going down?

:01:08. > :01:10.And in the north-west, our first flight to the home of flower power.

:01:11. > :01:18.bring some post-Brexit peace and love?

:01:19. > :01:20.changing their minds. MPs from opposing sides give the view from

:01:21. > :01:28.there constituencies. And with me, as always,

:01:29. > :01:30.the best and the brightest political panel in the business -

:01:31. > :01:33.Steve Richards, Isabel Oakeshott and Tom Newton Dunn who'll be

:01:34. > :01:38.tweeting throughout the programme. For the people of Gibraltar, Clause

:01:39. > :01:41.22 of the EU's draft negotiating guidelines came as something

:01:42. > :01:43.of a shock. The guidelines propose

:01:44. > :01:48.that the Government in Spain be given a veto over any future trade

:01:49. > :01:51.deal as it applies to The UK Government has reacted

:01:52. > :01:57.strongly, saying Gibraltar will not be bargained away

:01:58. > :01:59.in the Brexit talks. Here's the Defence Secretary,

:02:00. > :02:05.Michael Fallon, speaking We are going to look

:02:06. > :02:11.after Gibraltar. Gibraltar's going to be protected

:02:12. > :02:16.all the way, all the way, because the sovereignty of Gibraltar

:02:17. > :02:18.cannot be changed without the agreement of the people

:02:19. > :02:21.of Gibraltar and they have made it very clear they do not

:02:22. > :02:23.want to live under Spanish rule and it is interesting, I think,

:02:24. > :02:26.in the draft guidelines from the EU that Spain is not saying

:02:27. > :02:38.that the whole thing is subject Michael Fallon earlier. Steve, is

:02:39. > :02:43.this a Spanish power grab or much ado about nothing? It could be both.

:02:44. > :02:47.Clearly what is happening about this negotiation and will happen again

:02:48. > :02:52.and again is that at different points individual countries can

:02:53. > :02:59.start playing bargaining cards. They will say, if you want a deal, you

:03:00. > :03:03.have to deliver this, UK. Spain is doing it early. It might turn out to

:03:04. > :03:10.be nothing at all. It is an early example of how to delete recruit

:03:11. > :03:18.after Article 50 is triggered, the dynamic -- how after Article 50 is

:03:19. > :03:22.triggered, the dynamic changes. At certain points, any country can veto

:03:23. > :03:27.it. It gives them much more power than we have clocked so far. Donald

:03:28. > :03:33.Tusk, the head of the European Council, he went out of his way to

:03:34. > :03:36.say Britain mustn't deal by laterally, with individual

:03:37. > :03:42.countries, it has to deal with the EU as a block. Was it mischiefmaking

:03:43. > :03:50.to add this bit in about Spain? Those two things do not tally. I

:03:51. > :03:57.think on our part, when I say we, I mean the Foreign Office and Number

:03:58. > :04:00.10, we dropped the ball. By excluding Gibraltar from the letter

:04:01. > :04:05.of Article 50, they gave an opportunity to the Spanish to steal

:04:06. > :04:10.the narrative. Why this is important, presentation, things

:04:11. > :04:16.looked like they were going quite well for Theresa May when she handed

:04:17. > :04:19.over the letter, for a few hours, and suddenly, you have this

:04:20. > :04:25.incredible symbolism of Gibraltar. For Brexiteers, the idea that there

:04:26. > :04:30.could be some kind of diminishment or failure in relation to Gibraltar,

:04:31. > :04:34.it would be a very symbolic illustration of things not going

:04:35. > :04:39.entirely to plan. Forget the detail, it does not look great. Gibraltar

:04:40. > :04:44.got mentions in the white paper. They did not get a mention in the

:04:45. > :04:49.Article 50 notification. Do you think the British Government did not

:04:50. > :04:52.see this coming? To be honest, I do not think it would make a bit of

:04:53. > :04:57.difference. Theresa May could have an entire chapter in her letter to

:04:58. > :05:03.Donald Tusk and the Spanish and the EU would have still tried this on.

:05:04. > :05:08.For me, it was as much a point of symbolism than it was for any power

:05:09. > :05:13.grab. It was a good point to make. You need to know, Britain, you are

:05:14. > :05:17.not in our club, we will not have your interests at heart. Officials

:05:18. > :05:24.after the press conference, they went on to talk about it saying it

:05:25. > :05:31.is a territorial dispute. It is not! Gibraltar is British. It is very

:05:32. > :05:34.much a shot across the bow is. Whether it comes to pass, it is

:05:35. > :05:39.still yet to be seen. I feel we will be chasing hares like this for the

:05:40. > :05:45.next few years. There will be many other examples. They are greatly

:05:46. > :05:52.empowered by the whole process. Britain has not really got... It has

:05:53. > :05:55.got to wait and hear what their interpretation of Brexit is. They

:05:56. > :06:00.will negotiate, we will negotiate accordingly. I have some sympathy

:06:01. > :06:05.about the letter, the Article 50 letter. They agonised over it, so

:06:06. > :06:09.much to get right in terms of balance and tone. It would have been

:06:10. > :06:20.absurd to start mentioning Skegness and everything else. Why not!

:06:21. > :06:25.Skegness, what did they do? It is a real example of how the dynamic now

:06:26. > :06:29.changes. The Spanish royals are going to come here in a couple of

:06:30. > :06:35.months, that could be interesting. It will be good feelings breaking

:06:36. > :06:43.up, I am sure. -- breaking out. So, after a historic week,

:06:44. > :06:46.the UK is now very much But will it be a smooth

:06:47. > :06:50.journey to the exit door? Or can we expect

:06:51. > :06:51.a bit of turbulence? Are you taking back

:06:52. > :06:54.control, Prime Minister? Big days in politics usually

:06:55. > :06:56.involve people shouting and the Prime Minister getting

:06:57. > :06:58.in a car. It is only a few hundred metres

:06:59. > :07:01.from Downing Street to Parliament. But the short journey is the start

:07:02. > :07:04.of a much longer one and we do not know exactly

:07:05. > :07:09.where we will all end up. This is a historic moment

:07:10. > :07:11.from which there can Moments earlier, this Dear John,

:07:12. > :07:20.sorry, Dear Don letter, was delivered by Britain's

:07:21. > :07:23.ambassador in Brussels to the EU He seemed genuinely upset

:07:24. > :07:26.to have been jilted. Back in Westminster,

:07:27. > :07:31.hacks from around the world were trying to work out what it

:07:32. > :07:34.all meant for the So, here it is, a copy

:07:35. > :07:41.of the six-page letter The letter reaffirms the PM's

:07:42. > :07:47.proposal to have talks on the exit deal and a future trade deal

:07:48. > :07:50.at the same time. It also mentioned the word

:07:51. > :07:52."security" 11 times and stated a failure to reach agreement

:07:53. > :07:55.would mean cooperation in the fight against crime

:07:56. > :07:59.and terrorism would be weakened. Later, our very own Andrew got

:08:00. > :08:02.to ask her what would happen if Britain left the European

:08:03. > :08:08.policing agency, Europol. We would not be able to access

:08:09. > :08:12.information in the same way as we would as a member,

:08:13. > :08:15.so it is important, I think, we are able to negotiate

:08:16. > :08:17.a continuing relationship that enables us to work together

:08:18. > :08:20.in the way that we have. That night, the

:08:21. > :08:22.Brexiteers were happy. We did not have a Mad

:08:23. > :08:28.Hatter, but now we do. Down the street, even the Remainers,

:08:29. > :08:31.having a Mad Hatters' tea party, I am not sure that is

:08:32. > :08:40.actually Boris, though. The next morning, the papers

:08:41. > :08:55.suggested Theresa May would use security as a bargaining tool

:08:56. > :08:55.and threaten to withdraw the UK's cooperation in this area

:08:56. > :08:56.if no deal was struck. Downing Street denied it,

:08:57. > :08:56.as did the Brexit Secretary. We can both cope, but we

:08:57. > :08:59.will both be worse off. That seems to be a statement

:09:00. > :09:02.of fact, it is not a threat, David Davis had other

:09:03. > :09:05.business that morning, introducing the Great Repeal Bill,

:09:06. > :09:08.outling his plans to transfer all EU law into British

:09:09. > :09:10.law to change later, It is not without its critics

:09:11. > :09:15.but the Brexit Secretary said, among other benefits,

:09:16. > :09:17.it would make trade talks easier As we exit the EU and seek

:09:18. > :09:24.a new deep and special partnership with the European Union,

:09:25. > :09:26.we are doing so from a position where we have the same

:09:27. > :09:28.standards and rules. It will also ensure we deliver

:09:29. > :09:34.on our promise to end the supremacy of European Union law

:09:35. > :09:37.in the UK as we exit. There was, though, a small

:09:38. > :09:44.issue with the name. The Government hit an early hurdle

:09:45. > :09:47.with the Great Repeal Bill. Parliamentary draughtsmen said

:09:48. > :09:49.they were not allowed Great(!)

:09:50. > :09:57.so it is just the Repeal Bill. So far, it had been

:09:58. > :10:00.a tale of two cities. By Friday, there was another,

:10:01. > :10:03.Valletta in Malta, where EU leaders were having a meeting

:10:04. > :10:06.and President Tusk, yes, him again, set out draft guidelines

:10:07. > :10:12.for the EU Brexit strategy. Once, and only once,

:10:13. > :10:15.we have achieved sufficient progress on the withdrawal can we discuss

:10:16. > :10:18.the framework for our Starting parallel talks

:10:19. > :10:21.on all issues at the same time, as suggested by some in the UK,

:10:22. > :10:30.will not happen. The EU 27 does not and will not

:10:31. > :10:34.pursue a punitive approach. Brexit in itself is

:10:35. > :10:41.already punitive enough. The pressure on Theresa May to get

:10:42. > :10:44.the Brexit process going has now gone and the stage is being set

:10:45. > :10:47.elsewhere for the showdown But face-to-face discussions

:10:48. > :10:57.are not likely to happen Before May or early June. No one is

:10:58. > :11:03.celebrating just yet. We're joined now from Kent

:11:04. > :11:11.by the former Conservative The EU says it will not talk about a

:11:12. > :11:15.future relationship with the UK until there has been sufficient

:11:16. > :11:22.progress on agreeing the divorce bill. Should the UK agree to this

:11:23. > :11:28.phased approach? Well, I think you can make too much about the sequence

:11:29. > :11:33.and timing of the negotiations. I assume that it will be a case of

:11:34. > :11:37.nothing is agreed until everything is agreed and so any agreements that

:11:38. > :11:43.might be reached on things talked about early on will be very

:11:44. > :11:47.provisional, so I think you can make a big deal about the timing and the

:11:48. > :11:51.sequence when I do not think it really matters as much as all that.

:11:52. > :11:56.Don't people have a right in this country to be surprised of the talk

:11:57. > :11:59.of a massive multi-billion pound divorce settlement? I do not

:12:00. > :12:07.remember either side making much of this in the referendum, do you? No.

:12:08. > :12:11.A select committee of the House of Lords recently reported and said

:12:12. > :12:17.that there was no legal basis for any exit fee. We will have to see

:12:18. > :12:23.how the negotiations go. I think some of the figures cited so far are

:12:24. > :12:29.wildly out of kilter and wildly unrealistic. We will have to see

:12:30. > :12:33.what happens in the negotiations. As one of your panel commented earlier,

:12:34. > :12:37.there will be lots of hares to pursue over the next couple of years

:12:38. > :12:43.and we should not get too excited about any of them. Would you accept

:12:44. > :12:48.that we make... It may not be anything like the figures Brussels

:12:49. > :12:56.is kicking around of 50, 60 billion euros, do you think we will have to

:12:57. > :13:01.make a one-off settlement? If we get everything else we want, if we get a

:13:02. > :13:07.really good trade deal and access for the City of London and so on,

:13:08. > :13:10.speaking for myself, I would be prepared to make a modest payment.

:13:11. > :13:20.But it all depends on the deal we get. What would modest be? Oh, I

:13:21. > :13:24.cannot give you a figure. We are right at the start of the

:13:25. > :13:30.negotiations. I do not think that would be agreed until near the end.

:13:31. > :13:33.The EU says that if there is a transition period of several years

:13:34. > :13:38.after the negotiations, and there is more talk of that, the UK must

:13:39. > :13:42.remain subject to the free movement of peoples and the jurisdiction of

:13:43. > :13:47.the European Court of Justice, would that be acceptable to you? It

:13:48. > :13:50.depends on the nature of the transitional agreement. We are

:13:51. > :13:58.getting well ahead of ourselves here. You cannot, I think, for any

:13:59. > :14:01.judgment as to whether there should be a transitional stage until you

:14:02. > :14:06.know what the final deal is. If there is to be a final deal. And

:14:07. > :14:13.then you know how long it might take to implement that deal. That is

:14:14. > :14:17.something I think that it is really rather futile to talk about at this

:14:18. > :14:22.stage. It may become relevant, depending on the nature of the deal,

:14:23. > :14:26.and that is the proper time to talk about it and decide what the answer

:14:27. > :14:31.to the questions you pose might be. Except the EU has laid this out in

:14:32. > :14:37.its negotiation mandate and it is reasonable to ask people like

:14:38. > :14:42.yourself, should we accept that? It is reasonable for me to say, they

:14:43. > :14:45.will raise all sorts of things in their negotiating mandate and we do

:14:46. > :14:49.not need to form a view of all of them at this stage. Let me try

:14:50. > :14:52.another one. The EU says if they do agree what you have called a

:14:53. > :14:58.comprehensive free trade deal, we would have to accept EU constraints

:14:59. > :15:06.on state aid and taxes like VAT and corporation tax. Would you accept

:15:07. > :15:10.that? Again, I am not sure quite what they have in mind on that. We

:15:11. > :15:15.will be an independent country when we leave and we will make our own

:15:16. > :15:22.decisions about those matters. Not according to know that -- to the

:15:23. > :15:27.negotiating mandate. As I have said, they can put all sorts of things in

:15:28. > :15:31.the negotiating guidelines, it does not mean we have to agree with them.

:15:32. > :15:37.No doubt that is something we can discuss in the context of a free

:15:38. > :15:41.trade agreement. If we get a free trade agreement, that is very

:15:42. > :15:42.important for them as well as for us, and we can talk about some of

:15:43. > :15:55.the things you have just mentioned. Can you please leave a 20 without

:15:56. > :16:00.having repatriated full control of migration, taxis and the law? I

:16:01. > :16:07.think we will have repatriated all three of those things by the time of

:16:08. > :16:11.the next general election. How high would you rate the chances of no

:16:12. > :16:17.deal, and does that prospect worry you? I think the chances are we will

:16:18. > :16:21.get the deal, and I think the chances are we will get a good deal,

:16:22. > :16:29.because that is in the interests of both sides of this negotiation. But

:16:30. > :16:33.it is not the end of the world if we do not get a deal. Most trade in the

:16:34. > :16:38.world is carried out under World Trade Organisation rules. We would

:16:39. > :16:42.be perfectly OK if we traded with the European Union, as with

:16:43. > :16:46.everybody else, under World Trade Organisation rules. It is better to

:16:47. > :16:51.get the deal, and I think we will get the deal, because it is in the

:16:52. > :16:55.interests of both. Let me ask you about Gibraltar. You have campaigned

:16:56. > :16:59.in Gibraltar when the sovereignty issue came up under the Tony Blair

:17:00. > :17:05.government. The EU says that Spain should have a veto on whether any

:17:06. > :17:11.free-trade deal should apply to the Rock. How should the British

:17:12. > :17:16.government replied to that? As it has responded, by making it

:17:17. > :17:22.absolutely clear that we will stand by Gibraltar. 35 years ago this

:17:23. > :17:25.week, Andrew, another woman Prime Minister Centre task force is

:17:26. > :17:28.halfway across the world to protect another small group of British

:17:29. > :17:34.people against another Spanish-speaking country. I am

:17:35. > :17:38.absolutely clear that our current woman Prime Minister will show the

:17:39. > :17:49.same resolve in relation to Gibraltar as her predecessor did.

:17:50. > :17:51.This is not about Spain invading Gibraltar, it is not even about

:17:52. > :17:54.sovereignty, it is about Spain having a veto over whether any

:17:55. > :17:57.free-trade deal that the UK makes with the EU should also apply to

:17:58. > :18:03.Gibraltar. On that issue, how should the British government respond? The

:18:04. > :18:09.British government should show resolve. It is not in the interests

:18:10. > :18:13.of Spain, really, to interfere with free trade to Gibraltar. 10,000

:18:14. > :18:17.people who live in Spain working Gibraltar. That is a very important

:18:18. > :18:23.Spanish interest, so I am very confident that in the end, we will

:18:24. > :18:27.be able to look after all the interests of Gibraltar, including

:18:28. > :18:28.free trade. Michael Howard, thank you for joining us from Kent this

:18:29. > :18:32.morning. Although sometimes it seems

:18:33. > :18:33.like everyone has forgotten, there are things happening

:18:34. > :18:35.other than Brexit. In less than five weeks' time,

:18:36. > :18:38.there will be a round of important domestic elections and there's a lot

:18:39. > :18:41.up for grabs. Local elections take place

:18:42. > :18:44.on the 4th of May in England, In England, there are elections

:18:45. > :18:49.in 34 councils, with 2,370 The majority are county councils,

:18:50. > :18:56.usually areas of strength Large cities where Labour usually

:18:57. > :19:02.fares better are not Six regions of England will also

:19:03. > :19:06.hold elections for newly created combined authority mayors,

:19:07. > :19:09.and there will be contests for directly elected mayors,

:19:10. > :19:16.with voters in Manchester, Liverpool and the West Midlands

:19:17. > :19:18.among those going to the polls. In Scotland, every seat in all 32

:19:19. > :19:21.councils are being contested, many of them affected

:19:22. > :19:23.by boundary changes. Since these seats were last

:19:24. > :19:26.contested, Labour lost all but one Meanwhile, every seat in each

:19:27. > :19:31.of Wales' 22 councils All but one was last elected

:19:32. > :19:38.in 2012 in what was a very strong year for Labour,

:19:39. > :19:39.though independent candidates currently hold

:19:40. > :19:42.a quarter of council seats. According to the latest

:19:43. > :19:44.calculations by Plymouth University Election Centre,

:19:45. > :19:49.the Tories are predicted to increase their tally by 50 seats,

:19:50. > :19:52.despite being in government, But the dramatic story in England

:19:53. > :19:59.looks to be with the other parties, with the Lib-Dems possibly winning

:20:00. > :20:01.100 seats, while Ukip could be seeing a fall,

:20:02. > :20:06.predicted to lose 100 seats. Though the proportional system

:20:07. > :20:08.usually makes big changes less likely in Scotland,

:20:09. > :20:11.the SNP is predicted to increase both the number of seats

:20:12. > :20:14.they hold, and the number In Wales, Labour is defending a high

:20:15. > :20:22.water mark in support. Last year's Welsh Assembly elections

:20:23. > :20:25.suggest the only way is down, with all the parties making modest

:20:26. > :20:27.gains at Labour's expense. Joining me now is the BBC's

:20:28. > :20:30.very own elections guru, Professor John Curtice

:20:31. > :20:37.of the University of Strathclyde. Good to see you again. Let's start

:20:38. > :20:42.with England. How bad are the selection is going to be for Labour?

:20:43. > :20:46.Labourer not defending a great deal because this is for the most part

:20:47. > :20:51.rural England. The only control three of the council they are

:20:52. > :20:56.defending and they are only defending around 500 seats, I nearly

:20:57. > :20:59.a quarter are in one county, Durham. Labour's position in the opinion

:21:00. > :21:03.polls is weakened over the last 12 months and if you compare the

:21:04. > :21:15.position in the opinion polls now with where they were in the spring

:21:16. > :21:17.of 2013 when these seats in England were last fought, we are talking

:21:18. > :21:20.about a 12 point swing from Labour to conservative. The estimate of 50

:21:21. > :21:23.losses may be somewhat optimistic for Labour. Of the three council

:21:24. > :21:27.areas they control, two of them, Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire,

:21:28. > :21:31.could be lost, leaving labourer with virtually a duck as far as council

:21:32. > :21:35.control is concerned in these elections in England. In England,

:21:36. > :21:39.what would a Liberal Democrat reserve urgently great? That is the

:21:40. > :21:43.big question. We have had this picture since the EU referendum of

:21:44. > :21:47.the Liberal Democrats doing extraordinarily well in some local

:21:48. > :21:55.by-elections, gaining seats that they had not even fought before, and

:21:56. > :21:57.in other areas, doing no more than treading water. We are expecting a

:21:58. > :22:01.Liberal Democrat skin because the lost the lot -- the lost lots of

:22:02. > :22:04.ground when they were in coalition with the Conservatives. It is

:22:05. > :22:09.uncertain. A patchy performance may well be to their advantage. If they

:22:10. > :22:12.do well in some places and gain seats, and elsewhere do not do

:22:13. > :22:16.terribly well and do not waste votes, they may end up doing

:22:17. > :22:21.relatively well in seats, even if the overall gaining votes is likely

:22:22. > :22:52.to be modest. The elections for mayors, they are taking place in

:22:53. > :22:55.the Labour will that be a hefty consolation prize for the Labour

:22:56. > :22:57.Party? It ought to be, on Teesside, Merseyside, Greater Manchester. We

:22:58. > :23:00.are looking at one content very closely, that is the contest for the

:23:01. > :23:03.mayor of the West Midlands. If you look at what happened in the general

:23:04. > :23:05.election in 2015, labourer work nine points ahead of the Conservatives in

:23:06. > :23:08.the West Midlands. If you look at the swing since the general

:23:09. > :23:11.election, if you add that swing to where we were two years ago, the

:23:12. > :23:13.West Midlands now looks like a draw. Labour have to worry about a

:23:14. > :23:15.headline grabbing loss, and the West Midlands contest. If they were to

:23:16. > :23:18.lose, that wooden crate -- that would increase the pressure for

:23:19. > :23:21.their own Jeremy Corbyn to convince people that they can turn his

:23:22. > :23:27.party's fortunes around, and in truth at the moment, they are pretty

:23:28. > :23:30.dire. The West Midlands has Birmingham as its heart.

:23:31. > :23:36.Chock-a-block with marginal seats. It always has been. I always

:23:37. > :23:43.remember election night and marginal seats in the West Midlands.

:23:44. > :23:48.Scotland, the SNP is assaulting Labour's last remaining power base.

:23:49. > :23:54.The biggest prizes Glasgow. Will it take it, the SNP? Whether the SNP

:23:55. > :23:57.will gain control of Glasgow is uncertain. If you look at what is

:23:58. > :24:02.happening in local government by-elections let alone the opinion

:24:03. > :24:06.polls, in 2012, when these seats were last fought, Labour did

:24:07. > :24:11.relatively well, only one percentage point behind the SNP who were rather

:24:12. > :24:15.disappointed with the result compared to other elections. No sign

:24:16. > :24:23.of that happening this time alone -- this time around. Polls put the SNP

:24:24. > :24:26.ahead. By-elections have found the SNP advancing and Labour dropping by

:24:27. > :24:30.double digits. Labour are going to lose everything they currently

:24:31. > :24:34.control in Scotland, the SNP will become the dominant party, the

:24:35. > :24:38.question is how well they do. In Scotland there is a Conservative

:24:39. > :24:43.revival going on. The Conservatives did well in recent local government

:24:44. > :24:47.by-elections. At the moment, Labour are expected to come third north of

:24:48. > :24:53.the border in the local elections, repeating the third they suffered in

:24:54. > :24:56.the Holyrood elections last year. In Wales, Labour is expecting to lose

:24:57. > :25:02.control of a number of councils. They are the main party in 12 of 22

:25:03. > :25:06.local authorities. How bad could it be? We're expecting Labour to lose

:25:07. > :25:11.ground. In the opinion polls when these seats were last fought,

:25:12. > :25:16.labourer in the high 40s. Now they are not much above 30%. Cardiff

:25:17. > :25:22.could well join Glasgow was no longer being a Labour stronghold.

:25:23. > :25:24.Look out for Newport. Some of the South Wales councils that Labour

:25:25. > :25:40.control, Labour is probably too but occasionally, Plaid

:25:41. > :25:42.Cymru surprises in this area. They managed to win the Rhondda seat in

:25:43. > :25:45.the assembly elections. Jeremy Corbyn has said he wants to be

:25:46. > :25:47.judged on proper elections, council elections as opposed to opinion

:25:48. > :25:50.polls, but even if he does as badly as John has been suggesting, does it

:25:51. > :25:57.affect his leadership? I think it does on two counts. It will affect

:25:58. > :26:00.his own confidence. Anyone who is a human being will be affected by

:26:01. > :26:05.this. He might go into his office and be told by John McDonnell and

:26:06. > :26:11.others, stand firm, it is all right, but it will affect his confidence

:26:12. > :26:16.and inevitably it contributes to a sense that this is moving to some

:26:17. > :26:20.kind of denoument, at some point. In other words, while I understand the

:26:21. > :26:27.argument that he has won twice in a leadership contest, well, within 12

:26:28. > :26:34.months, I wonder whether this can carry on in a fixed term parliament,

:26:35. > :26:38.up until 2020, if it were to do so. On two France, it will have some

:26:39. > :26:44.impact. I am not seeing it will lead to his immediate departure, it will

:26:45. > :26:50.mark, but if these things are as devastating as John suggests, it

:26:51. > :26:55.will have an impact. Tom, I'll be looking at a Lib Dem fightback? That

:26:56. > :27:00.is the $64,000 question. It would seem that we should be. One massive

:27:01. > :27:04.reason we're not having a general election a time soon, apart from the

:27:05. > :27:07.fact that Theresa May does not believe in these things, she

:27:08. > :27:12.believes in pressing on, it is because Tory MPs in the South West

:27:13. > :27:15.who took the Lib Dem seats, they were telling Number 10 they were

:27:16. > :27:19.worried they were going to lose their seats back to the Lib Dems.

:27:20. > :27:24.The Lib Dems never went away and local government. They have got

:27:25. > :27:28.other campaigners and activists. It looks credible that they will be the

:27:29. > :27:32.success story of the whole thing. Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall, he says

:27:33. > :27:39.this will be the most difficult local elections his party will face

:27:40. > :27:44.before 2020. A bit of management of expectations. It is unlikely to be a

:27:45. > :27:50.good time for Ukip. They are right to manage expectations. The results

:27:51. > :28:10.will be horrible for Ukip. I agree with Tom about the Lib Dem

:28:11. > :28:13.threat to the Tories. Talking to some senior figures within the Tory

:28:14. > :28:16.party earlier this week, I was picking up that they are worried

:28:17. > :28:18.about 30-40 general election seeds being vulnerable to the Lib Dems

:28:19. > :28:20.because of the Labour collapse. I would normally agree with Steve

:28:21. > :28:22.about the resilience of politicians, the capability of withstanding

:28:23. > :28:25.repeated blows, but Jeremy Corbyn is not in the normal category. I think

:28:26. > :28:27.he is, in the sense that although he get solace from winning leadership

:28:28. > :28:32.contest, anyone who leads a party into the kind of, it is not going to

:28:33. > :28:38.be that vivid, because they are not defending the key seats. If they

:28:39. > :28:43.were to win Birmingham, say, and get slaughtered by the SNP in Scotland,

:28:44. > :28:47.it will undermine what is already a fairly ambiguous sense of

:28:48. > :28:49.self-confidence. We need to leave it there. Thank you, John Curtice.

:28:50. > :28:52.Well, with those elections on the horizon, is Labour where it

:28:53. > :28:55.Former leader Ed Miliband was on the Andrew

:28:56. > :28:57.Marr Show earlier and he explained the challenge Labour faces

:28:58. > :29:02.It is easier for other parties, if you are the Greens or the

:29:03. > :29:04.Liberal Democrats you're essentially fishing in the 48% pool.

:29:05. > :29:08.If you are Ukip, you are fishing in the 52% pool.

:29:09. > :29:11.Labour is trying to do something much harder,

:29:12. > :29:13.which is to try and speak for the whole country,

:29:14. > :29:15.and by the way, that is another part of

:29:16. > :29:19.Our attack on Theresa May, part of it is she's

:29:20. > :29:25.Ignoring the verdict going into this, saying,

:29:26. > :29:27.let's overturn it, looks like ignoring the 52%.

:29:28. > :29:33.By the way, there is more that unites Remainers

:29:34. > :29:35.and Leavers than might first appear, because they share common

:29:36. > :29:40.concerns about the way the country is run.

:29:41. > :29:45.Joining me now is the Shadow Health Secretary, Jon Ashworth.

:29:46. > :29:50.Welcome to the programme. Alastair Campbell told me on the BBC on

:29:51. > :29:55.Thursday that he is fighting to reverse the referendum result. Ed

:29:56. > :30:02.Miliband says that Remain needs to accept the result, come to terms

:30:03. > :30:06.with it. Who is right? We have to accept the referendum result. I

:30:07. > :30:10.campaigned passionately to remain in the European Union. The city I

:30:11. > :30:14.represent, Leicester, voted narrowly to remain in the European Union.

:30:15. > :30:19.Sadly the country did not. We cannot overturn that and be like kinky

:30:20. > :30:24.nude, trying to demand the tide go back out. We have to accept this

:30:25. > :30:32.democratic process. We all voted to have a referendum when the relevant

:30:33. > :30:40.legislation came to Parliament. How bad will the local elections before

:30:41. > :30:46.Labour? Let us see where we get to on election night when I am sure I

:30:47. > :30:55.will be invited on to one of these types of programmes... The election

:30:56. > :30:58.date, the following day. But it does look like you will lose seats across

:30:59. > :31:04.the board in England, Scotland and Wales. What did you make of what

:31:05. > :31:08.Steve Richards said about the impact on Jeremy Corbyn's leadership? We

:31:09. > :31:16.have to win seats, we cannot fall back on the scales suggested. No,

:31:17. > :31:23.your package was right, it tends to be Tory areas, but generally, we

:31:24. > :31:26.have to be winning in Nottinghamshire, Lancashire, those

:31:27. > :31:30.types of places because they contain a lot of the marginal constituencies

:31:31. > :31:36.that decide general elections. The important places in the elections

:31:37. > :31:43.are towns like Beeston, towns you have not heard of, but they are

:31:44. > :31:47.marginal towns in marginal swing constituencies. We have to do well

:31:48. > :31:51.in them. We will see where we are on election night but my pretty is to

:31:52. > :31:58.campaign hard in these areas over the next few weeks. Even people who

:31:59. > :32:04.voted Labour in 2015, they prefer Theresa May to Mr Corbyn as Prime

:32:05. > :32:09.Minister, a recent poll said. Isn't that extraordinary? I have not seen

:32:10. > :32:16.that. I will look it up. It was you Government. -- YouGov. It is

:32:17. > :32:22.important we win the trust of people. You are not winning the

:32:23. > :32:28.trust of people who voted for you in 2015. We have to hold onto people

:32:29. > :32:32.who voted for us in 2015 and we have to persuade people who voted for

:32:33. > :32:36.other parties to come to us. One of the criticisms I have of the debate

:32:37. > :32:41.that goes on in the wider Labour Party, do not misunderstand me, I am

:32:42. > :32:46.not making a criticism about an individual, but the debate you see

:32:47. > :32:51.online suggests that if you want to get people who voted Conservative to

:32:52. > :32:55.switch to Labour it is somehow a betrayal of our principles, it was

:32:56. > :33:01.not. Justin Trudeau said Conservative voters are our

:33:02. > :33:06.neighbours, our relatives. We have to persuade people to switch from

:33:07. > :33:14.voting Conservative to voting Labour as well as increasing our vote among

:33:15. > :33:18.nonvoters and Greens. It seems like you have a mountain to climb and the

:33:19. > :33:24.mountain is Everest. Another poll, I am not sure if you have seen this,

:33:25. > :33:34.in London, the Bastian of Labour, the Bastian of Remain, Mr Corbyn is

:33:35. > :33:39.less popular than even Ukip's Paul Nuttall. That is beyond

:33:40. > :33:43.extraordinary! I do not know about that. The most recent set of

:33:44. > :33:50.elections in London was the mayoral election where the Labour candidate

:33:51. > :33:56.city: won handsomely. He took the seat of a conservative. We took that

:33:57. > :34:08.of a conservative. It was a year ago. We did well then. You had an

:34:09. > :34:11.anti-Jeremy Corbyn candidate. I think he nominated Jeremy Corbyn,

:34:12. > :34:16.from memory. We have not got elections in London but our

:34:17. > :34:26.elections are in the county areas and the various mayoral elections...

:34:27. > :34:30.What about the West Midlands? In any normal year, mid-term, as the

:34:31. > :34:36.opposition, Labour should win the West Midlands. John Curtis says it

:34:37. > :34:40.is nip and tuck. It has always been a swing region but we want to do

:34:41. > :34:47.well, of course. We want to turn out a strong Labour vote in Dudley,

:34:48. > :34:53.Northampton, those sorts of places. They are key constituencies in the

:34:54. > :34:59.general election. Does Labour look like a government in waiting to you?

:35:00. > :35:04.What I would say is contrast where we are to what the conservative

:35:05. > :35:07.garment is doing. I asked you about Labour, you do not get to tell me

:35:08. > :35:12.about the Conservatives. Does it look like a government in waiting to

:35:13. > :35:16.you? Today we are exposing the Conservatives... Reminding people

:35:17. > :35:22.the Conservatives are breaking the pledge on waiting times of 18 weeks

:35:23. > :35:28.so lots of elderly people waiting longer in pain for hip replacements

:35:29. > :35:30.and cataract replacements. Yesterday the Housing spokesperson John Healey

:35:31. > :35:35.was exposing the shortcomings in the Help to Buy scheme. The education

:35:36. > :35:40.spokesperson has been campaigning hard against the cuts to schools.

:35:41. > :35:44.Tom Watson has been campaigning hard against some of the changes the

:35:45. > :35:48.Government want to introduce in culture. The Shadow Cabinet are

:35:49. > :35:53.working hard to hold the Government's feet to the fire. Does

:35:54. > :36:00.it look like a government in waiting? Yes. It took you three

:36:01. > :36:04.times! There is a social care crisis, schools funding issue, a

:36:05. > :36:08.huge issue for lots of areas, the NHS has just got through the winter

:36:09. > :36:16.and is abandoning many of its targets. You are 18 points behind in

:36:17. > :36:23.the polls. We have to work harder. What can you do? The opinion polls

:36:24. > :36:27.are challenging but we are a great Social Democratic Party of

:36:28. > :36:30.government. On Twitter today, lots of Labour activists celebrating that

:36:31. > :36:34.the national minimum wage has been in place for something like 16 years

:36:35. > :36:40.because we were in government. Look of the sweeping progressive changes

:36:41. > :36:45.this country has benefited from, the NHS, sure start centres, an assault

:36:46. > :36:50.on child poverty, the Labour Party got itself in contention for

:36:51. > :36:54.government. I entirely accept the polls do not make thrilling reading

:36:55. > :36:58.for Labour politicians on Sunday morning, but it means people like me

:36:59. > :37:01.have to work harder because we are part of something bigger than an

:37:02. > :37:05.individual, we are in the business of changing things for the British

:37:06. > :37:08.people and if we do not do that, if we do not focus on that, we are

:37:09. > :37:16.letting people down. Is Labour preparing for an early election

:37:17. > :37:21.question Billy burqa? Reports in the press of a war chest as macro for an

:37:22. > :37:26.early election? The general election coordinator called for a general

:37:27. > :37:29.election when Theresa May became Prime Minister. We are investing in

:37:30. > :37:35.staff and the organisational capability we need. By the way, the

:37:36. > :37:39.Labour Party staff do brilliant work. A bit of nonsense on Twitter

:37:40. > :37:43.having a go at them. They do tremendous work. Whenever the

:37:44. > :37:51.election comes, they will be ready. Jon Ashworth, thank you.

:37:52. > :38:05.Our first flight to the home of flower power.

:38:06. > :38:07.Could a bit of California dreaming bring some

:38:08. > :38:12.It's all about connectivity and, great,

:38:13. > :38:16.We always have wanted to trade with the EU.

:38:17. > :38:19.We want to trade with the rest of the world as well.

:38:20. > :38:22.If San Francisco doesn't do it for you, perhaps Wigan

:38:23. > :38:26.Joining me this week are Labour's Lisa Nandy and Graham Evans

:38:27. > :38:31.We also welcome Ukip treasurer John Bickley.

:38:32. > :38:37.I mean, it's still a shock in some respect.

:38:38. > :38:40.It took me some time to actually believe we'd won

:38:41. > :38:42.the referendum but certainly, the tripling of Article 50

:38:43. > :38:46.and the deliverance of the letter to the EU is a seminal moment

:38:47. > :38:53.That's true, that's how the Prime Minister put it, isn't it?

:38:54. > :38:55.It did feel like a key moment after all

:38:56. > :38:56.of these incremental changes, didn't it, Graham?

:38:57. > :39:00.It was a very special day on Wednesday but not least,

:39:01. > :39:02.if I can just mention, PC Palmer

:39:03. > :39:04.from the week before, it was only a week

:39:05. > :39:07.and although we had PMQs and then we had the Prime Minister's

:39:08. > :39:09.statement, we did remember with a Book of Remembrance

:39:10. > :39:12.in the house, so we did remember a PC Palmer and his bravery

:39:13. > :39:16.That was at the beginning of the talks, wasn't it?

:39:17. > :39:19.But we did go on to mark the triggering of Article 50,

:39:20. > :39:22.Well, I expected it to feel very historic

:39:23. > :39:25.It's been quite a sombre time in Westminster because

:39:26. > :39:28.of everything that's happened and then it was quite a shock off

:39:29. > :39:30.the back of that to see the letter that

:39:31. > :39:33.the Prime Minister wrote to trigger Article 50

:39:34. > :39:38.that somehow the UK would be willing

:39:39. > :39:42.to trade our security cooperation with other EU countries

:39:43. > :39:46.for a better deal on trade and it seemed like a very odd contrast

:39:47. > :39:48.between what happened last week, what happened this week...

:39:49. > :39:50.That's the way it's been perceived by some.

:39:51. > :39:54.So quite a lot to think about, really.

:39:55. > :39:57.But first, we are four days down but there are 726 to go

:39:58. > :39:59.before we officially leave the European Union.

:40:00. > :40:02.This week, there were plans to broaden the horizons of our

:40:03. > :40:05.two biggest cities beyond Europe, including the first flights

:40:06. > :40:08.from outside London to the birthplace of flower power.

:40:09. > :40:10.Mark Edwardson wonders if that means the future's

:40:11. > :40:21.# If you're going to San Francisco...#

:40:22. > :40:25.Manchester and San Francisco - the similarities run deep,

:40:26. > :40:28.according to one delegate on the inaugural direct flight

:40:29. > :40:35.Manchester's always reinvented cultures, history, you know,

:40:36. > :40:37.we played a role in the abolition of slavery,

:40:38. > :40:41.Silicon Valley, I mean, that all came

:40:42. > :40:44.from the counterculture of the 60s and 70s.

:40:45. > :40:46.Spirit in the sky - 30 of the region's leading

:40:47. > :40:52.tech firms were represented on the flight.

:40:53. > :40:59.Many of them planning to make 2017 the second summer of love.

:41:00. > :41:02.Brexit is something that's constantly talked about

:41:03. > :41:05.I personally don't think it's going to affect

:41:06. > :41:09.The barriers to entry in that market for me are only going

:41:10. > :41:11.to get, you know, less, so it's such an exciting time

:41:12. > :41:14.for a tech start-up like Vibe Tickets to be going

:41:15. > :41:17.out there and seeing what the rest of the world is doing.

:41:18. > :41:19.Manchester-based data handling firm AMS

:41:20. > :41:23.are very comfortable with a post-Brexit landscape.

:41:24. > :41:25.It's interesting, isn't it, that we got ministers

:41:26. > :41:27.in the region talking about international trade,

:41:28. > :41:31.It's all about connectivity and, great, we want to trade

:41:32. > :41:35.we always have wanted to trade with the EU.

:41:36. > :41:38.We want to trade with the rest of the world as well.

:41:39. > :41:41.At Garston Dock in Liverpool, there's something in the air.

:41:42. > :41:46.A brand-new crane, part of an ?8 million investment.

:41:47. > :41:50.But Merseyside's only Lib Dem MP says the future of places like this

:41:51. > :41:54.An awful lot of our supplies to our businesses come in

:41:55. > :41:59.If there are tariffs there, if there's going to be restrictions

:42:00. > :42:02.on customs and that kind of thing, then life is going to become more

:42:03. > :42:04.difficult for them and it's going to get more expensive

:42:05. > :42:08.To give you an idea of the largely European nature of business

:42:09. > :42:14.here at Garston Dock in Liverpool, the new crane was built in Finland,

:42:15. > :42:16.the aggregate that it's dumping into those lorries

:42:17. > :42:20.from the ship probably came from Spain or Portugal.

:42:21. > :42:23.Yes, the trading patterns may be different and

:42:24. > :42:27.All businesses you hear talk about not liking uncertainty

:42:28. > :42:31.but you can either sit back and do nothing or you can do something

:42:32. > :42:33.about it so we as a business are investing

:42:34. > :42:37.nationally and we will continue to do so.

:42:38. > :42:40.Associated British Ports, but also Peel down in the

:42:41. > :42:46.They're making those investments in the new cranes

:42:47. > :42:50.so that we're prepared and ready whatever the eventuality is.

:42:51. > :42:54.It seems a post-Article 50 peace and love pragmatism has settled and

:42:55. > :43:04.Thankfully spared the sight of Mark Edwardson

:43:05. > :43:06.in a festival poncho there but, Lisa, we see

:43:07. > :43:08.the green shoots in the economy,

:43:09. > :43:10.in commerce, is it time to accept that 64%

:43:11. > :43:13.Actually, Brexit is a good thing for our region?

:43:14. > :43:15.I think it's absolutely time to accept that

:43:16. > :43:18.the referendum is over and that a majority voted to leave

:43:19. > :43:23.and Britain is now leaving the EU and unless we accept that,

:43:24. > :43:27.And what comes next is really important because I agree

:43:28. > :43:30.that we are a strong country, we're a country

:43:31. > :43:31.with a lot to offer and we need to

:43:32. > :43:34.go into the future with a sense of optimism...

:43:35. > :43:37...that the business is there portrayed, but that doesn't

:43:38. > :43:40.mean that we shouldn't realise that a lot rests on the outcome of these

:43:41. > :43:43.negotiations and we shouldn't take them very seriously.

:43:44. > :43:45.But do you concede that the economy has proved buoyant

:43:46. > :43:48.and it hasn't been as disastrous as you might have feared?

:43:49. > :43:51.So, I think there are real complications with what happens

:43:52. > :43:57.And I was never one of the people who subscribe to the idea

:43:58. > :43:59.that the day that Britain voted to leave the EU,

:44:00. > :44:02.suddenly the economy would fall off a cliff, but I do think

:44:03. > :44:06.there are reasons to believe that there would be serious problems

:44:07. > :44:09.for the North West's economy if we were to crash

:44:10. > :44:12.out of the EU in two year's time with no deal.

:44:13. > :44:15.And that's not just my view, that is the view of one

:44:16. > :44:18.of the strongest pro-leave campaigners

:44:19. > :44:22.John Bickley, we are facing a situation now where we are

:44:23. > :44:25.not going to be able to strike a trade deal until we've

:44:26. > :44:28.That is the rule stipulated by Donald Tusk.

:44:29. > :44:31.And that's going to create a mess financially, is it not?

:44:32. > :44:36.I mean, I noted there that Lisa had to use the word crash.

:44:37. > :44:38.You hear people on the remains side who

:44:39. > :44:41.just can't accept that they lost the referendum use the word hard

:44:42. > :44:46.Are you not concerned that we can't reach a trade deal until...?

:44:47. > :44:50.Because only 12% of this country's turnover goes

:44:51. > :44:56.The majority of the wealth in this country and annual GDP

:44:57. > :45:02.The rest of the world is growing faster than the EU.

:45:03. > :45:06.Every country in the world outside of the EU, guess what?

:45:07. > :45:13.Trades with the EU, has access to the single market.

:45:14. > :45:16.You don't need to be a member of the single market

:45:17. > :45:22.We don't know what it will be for two years.

:45:23. > :45:26.We'll have to negotiate everything else before we find out what our

:45:27. > :45:29.Some people want to give this impression it's complicated.

:45:30. > :45:31.We could just revert to WTO rules, which most of the world

:45:32. > :45:33.uses those rules to trade with the EU.

:45:34. > :45:36.But the implication of that, John, would be that we weren't part

:45:37. > :45:39.of the open skies agreement, so the planes that you just saw

:45:40. > :45:41.that there wouldn't have permission to fly...

:45:42. > :45:44.This is the view of the Brexit secretary.

:45:45. > :45:46.Are you truly saying our planes will be able

:45:47. > :45:50.If we don't sign up to a new open skies agreement,

:45:51. > :45:54.David Davis, the Brexit secretary, appeared before the select committee

:45:55. > :45:57.last week and confirmed that if we went into

:45:58. > :45:59.the WTO system that you described without a deal,

:46:00. > :46:02.Well, I don't believe that's the case.

:46:03. > :46:04.And what I'm saying to you is the worst-case scenario...

:46:05. > :46:09.It's in the EU's interest to sign a free trade deal with this country.

:46:10. > :46:11.They sell considerably more to this country than vice versa.

:46:12. > :46:13.If they truly care about their citizens,

:46:14. > :46:16.German citizens who work for BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen,

:46:17. > :46:20.we're their biggest market in Europe.

:46:21. > :46:23.I agree that it's in both of our interest to collaborate,

:46:24. > :46:29.Surely you accept that if we did leave under WTO rules as you're

:46:30. > :46:31.describing, there would be 40% tariffs on agriculture.

:46:32. > :46:33.The Brexit secretary confirmed it last week.

:46:34. > :46:36.We would not be part of the open skies agreement

:46:37. > :46:37.and our planes wouldn't be able to...

:46:38. > :46:40.Let's bring Graham in, let's bring Graham in.

:46:41. > :46:46.I think it's a real opportunity, fantastic opportunity

:46:47. > :46:48.for the businesses in the North West as your excellent piece.

:46:49. > :46:51.I thought it was an excellent piece, of going to America.

:46:52. > :46:53.The other growth countries in the world, India, China

:46:54. > :46:56.We are still a manufacturing region so we have

:46:57. > :47:01.But half of our trade, half of our export in the

:47:02. > :47:04.North West goes to the EU and it's a slap

:47:05. > :47:06.in the face this week for the

:47:07. > :47:09.Prime Minister that Donald Tusk has said we're going to have to wait

:47:10. > :47:12.But things are quite fluid, what people

:47:13. > :47:16.But it's what we actually come up with at the end of

:47:17. > :47:19.the negotiations and if we have access to the single market...

:47:20. > :47:21.But would it feel that way if you run a factory?

:47:22. > :47:24.No, we're still be able to export to the European Union.

:47:25. > :47:26.We will still have access to that single market

:47:27. > :47:29.but it doesn't stop us in the meantime forging those links

:47:30. > :47:31.and those trade routes with other countries around the world.

:47:32. > :47:33.A big concern at the moment, while the

:47:34. > :47:35.Prime Minister is talking to Nicola Sturgeon,

:47:36. > :47:37.negotiating with Scotland, our economy in the North West

:47:38. > :47:39.is bigger than Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales combined

:47:40. > :47:45.We do have her ear and as I say, this is a real opportunity.

:47:46. > :47:47.The economy in the north-west of England

:47:48. > :47:50.is growing faster than at stages in the South West,

:47:51. > :47:55.We are a vibrant manufacturing economy.

:47:56. > :47:57.We've got so many opportunities, as you saw in your film.

:47:58. > :48:00.So I don't go along with what Lisa's saying.

:48:01. > :48:04.Should have been a plan, if you win the referendum to

:48:05. > :48:06.leave the European Union, should have been something in place?

:48:07. > :48:15.The establishment, the Labour Party, the Tory party,

:48:16. > :48:17.the Liberal party, all assumed that we

:48:18. > :48:19.So they just were arrogant in assuming...

:48:20. > :48:21.But did you not have a responsibility to communicate

:48:22. > :48:25.to the public that there could be a bill as high as ?50 billion

:48:26. > :48:28.Well, sorry, this is the EU trying to...

:48:29. > :48:33.But did you not have a responsibility to warn the public

:48:34. > :48:38.The bill that we will have to pay, we will have to pay.

:48:39. > :48:46.Donald Tusk has said we will have to settle that.

:48:47. > :48:50.Just because Donald Tusk says that this box is pink, not blue,

:48:51. > :48:53.So we leave without any deal whatsoever?

:48:54. > :48:55.Ultimately, if the EU is intransigent and ignores putting

:48:56. > :48:58.together what we call a free-trade deal which is in their consumers'

:48:59. > :49:00.interest as as ours, there are big companies

:49:01. > :49:02.want to continue to trade with this country...

:49:03. > :49:07.And, look, I do agree with you, Graham, that there

:49:08. > :49:10.are lots of reasons to be optimistic about what the UK has to offer and

:49:11. > :49:13.the fact is that we've had very strong partnerships with other EU

:49:14. > :49:21.But the problem comes if you do what John is

:49:22. > :49:23.suggesting and you crash out of the EU...

:49:24. > :49:27.Under WTO rules, because what that means

:49:28. > :49:30.instantly, there will be tariffs on our imports and exports,

:49:31. > :49:32.there will be a hard border in Northern Ireland

:49:33. > :49:34.threatening the peace agreement, there are real problems.

:49:35. > :49:36.Donald Tusk has said he's going to look at the

:49:37. > :49:38.border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

:49:39. > :49:41.No, I'm sorry, it is completely irresponsible!

:49:42. > :49:45.I believe in this country, John, but I don't

:49:46. > :49:47.believe in politicians like you who are telling the public lies.

:49:48. > :49:50.Donald Tusk has said is one of the first

:49:51. > :49:56.Let's hear from Graham, let's hear from Graham.

:49:57. > :49:58.The border between Northern Ireland and the

:49:59. > :50:00.Republic of Ireland, Donald Tusk has said that's one

:50:01. > :50:02.of the first things they're going to sort out.

:50:03. > :50:04.And will you make sure the Prime Minister

:50:05. > :50:07.says the first thing she'll do is come up here and talk

:50:08. > :50:11.Because she's been invited to and she's declined the invite.

:50:12. > :50:13.Well, to be fair to the Prime Minister and the Cabinet...

:50:14. > :50:15.Gordon Brown has said this week that we're

:50:16. > :50:18.In the early part of the year, she launched

:50:19. > :50:21.the industrial strategy in my constituency and came up with the

:50:22. > :50:23.Cabinet, so she has a very good record.

:50:24. > :50:26.She came up, but she want to meet with council leaders and talk

:50:27. > :50:28.about the implications of Brexit for the North.

:50:29. > :50:31.David Davis is going to do that and I'll speak to

:50:32. > :50:35.I'm sure she'd love to come up to the north-west of

:50:36. > :50:42.We're going to have to move on, sorry, John.

:50:43. > :50:44.George Osborne called him a star of local Government

:50:45. > :50:46.and Andy Burnham called him one of the most incredible

:50:47. > :50:51.In 46 years at Manchester City Council, 19 as chief executive,

:50:52. > :50:52.Sir Howard Bernstein has rebuilt the city

:50:53. > :50:54.after the IRA bombing and injected the ambition

:50:55. > :50:56.and vision to turn it into an economic

:50:57. > :50:59.I went to meeting this week at his office.

:51:00. > :51:02.It was 1971 when a young Howard Bernstein from Cheetham Hill

:51:03. > :51:04.entered Manchester town Hall to do the washing up.

:51:05. > :51:07.He describes Manchester then as a city with soul

:51:08. > :51:18.And just felt my role was able to shape Manchester in the future.

:51:19. > :51:22.Yes. Yes.

:51:23. > :51:25.Opportunities are sometimes disguised in grotesque form

:51:26. > :51:31.and Howards's came on the 15th of June 1996.

:51:32. > :51:34.Some people say it's the best thing that ever happened to Manchester

:51:35. > :51:37.and it did not feel like that at the time, did it?

:51:38. > :51:42.It was an appalling period, certainly in my life.

:51:43. > :51:43.And I think most Mancunian's lives as well

:51:44. > :51:51.# You've got to roll with it You've got to take your time #.

:51:52. > :51:54.But Manchester sprang out of the rubble,

:51:55. > :51:57.defiantly transformed and guided by Sir Howard's vision.

:51:58. > :52:01.National architecture awards followed and Howard from

:52:02. > :52:05.How does it make you feel to think,

:52:06. > :52:14.You know, when you look at the challenges we've had over the last

:52:15. > :52:18.20 years and we see how the city has changed, of course, I feel

:52:19. > :52:22.privileged to have been able to play a part in that.

:52:23. > :52:25.How did it feel when you sat and watched the opening ceremony

:52:26. > :52:39.The whole period leading up to the Commonwealth Games

:52:40. > :52:47.One good thing that came out of them - his beloved Manchester City

:52:48. > :52:51.You oversaw the city of Manchester Stadium becoming

:52:52. > :52:54.Did you declare personal interest at that point?

:52:55. > :52:59.It was written on my wrist everywhere.

:53:00. > :53:03.But at the end of the day, Man City was the

:53:04. > :53:07.only show in town if we were going to build a permanent stadium.

:53:08. > :53:09.And it's just great that that stadium

:53:10. > :53:12.has coincided with an upsurge in the club's fortunes.

:53:13. > :53:15.Sir Howard says he leaves the city still on the up,

:53:16. > :53:17.rising global investments, the fastest growing

:53:18. > :53:24.He does regret Brexit but also feels the EU has become too political.

:53:25. > :53:28.Do you feel as a political institution, its days are numbered?

:53:29. > :53:31.I think there's going to have to be reform of the EU

:53:32. > :53:37.Whether or not it will be on the back of Brexit,

:53:38. > :53:39.I'm absolutely certain reform of one form or another

:53:40. > :53:45.After 46 years of walking through these doors,

:53:46. > :53:50.Manchester isn't just about the people in here, is it?

:53:51. > :54:02.And want to do the best for themselves and for the city

:54:03. > :54:11.and in my own way, I'm going to continue

:54:12. > :54:14.to work for Manchester and play my full part

:54:15. > :54:15.in this city's future success.

:54:16. > :54:19.You certainly haven't seen the last of me.

:54:20. > :54:20.Thank you very much, that was lovely.

:54:21. > :54:23.Lisa, you grew up in Manchester in the 80s, as

:54:24. > :54:26.We have got a lot to be grateful for.

:54:27. > :54:28.It's unrecognisable to what it was back then, isn't it?

:54:29. > :54:30.Yes, it's transformed incredibly over that time

:54:31. > :54:32.and I think one of the things

:54:33. > :54:34.that I didn't know as a child but that you do become

:54:35. > :54:38.much more aware of is that in the background has been a team

:54:39. > :54:42.overseen by Howard who has never pushed

:54:43. > :54:46.to protect Manchester from some of the buffeting that

:54:47. > :54:49.other areas of the country have got and I think we have a lot to be

:54:50. > :54:53.And actually, he did say part of it was working with the

:54:54. > :54:55.Conservative Government through the 80s and 90s,

:54:56. > :55:00.And in the end, although you see us all having a big knock-about

:55:01. > :55:02.and we do have very fundamentally serious disagreements

:55:03. > :55:04.about things, in the end, if you want to make

:55:05. > :55:05.change for people, you work together.

:55:06. > :55:07.There are a lot of statues in Manchester.

:55:08. > :55:10.Perhaps there could be another one for Sir Howard.

:55:11. > :55:14.So Howard has been a driving force in the city

:55:15. > :55:17.for a generation but a key player soon will be the metro mayor

:55:18. > :55:19.and that's because greater Manchester and Liverpool city

:55:20. > :55:21.region, which is Merseyside plus Holton, will elect regional mayors

:55:22. > :55:25.In Merseyside, the mayor and combined

:55:26. > :55:27.authority - that is the six councils working together - will get

:55:28. > :55:29.?900 million over 30 years and powers over apprenticeships

:55:30. > :55:32.and skills, Housing and planning, transport and integration of health

:55:33. > :55:35.Greater Manchester's mayor and combined authority

:55:36. > :55:38.will get the same and more.

:55:39. > :55:41.?300 million to invest in housing, influence over the devolved

:55:42. > :55:42.?6 billion health budget, control of

:55:43. > :55:46.policing as well as powers over the justice system.

:55:47. > :55:48.Graham, this is significant, isn't it?

:55:49. > :55:50.But again, it's not something we've heard the

:55:51. > :55:51.Government post-Osborne talk a lot about.

:55:52. > :55:54.Is there a feel that they're interested that this

:55:55. > :55:55.devolution is happening in the north-west?

:55:56. > :55:59.It's a very good thing for Manchester and also for Liverpool.

:56:00. > :56:02.What's good enough for London has got to be

:56:03. > :56:06.good for cities such as Manchester and Liverpool

:56:07. > :56:17.I said this to Steve, you have to go out into the world and sell

:56:18. > :56:20.Liverpool and Merseyside and the same goes with Manchester was

:56:21. > :56:22.following on from Sir Howard, it is a global

:56:23. > :56:24.way to sell Manchester and therefore the region.

:56:25. > :56:26.It's good for the region, not just for the cities.

:56:27. > :56:29.John, people will say Ukip and have a role in this.

:56:30. > :56:37.I guess, to be honest with you, one of the things

:56:38. > :56:42.that concerns me about mayoral elections, the same for the police

:56:43. > :56:44.and crime commissioner, they become politicised.

:56:45. > :56:46.The main parties effectively fight amongst themselves

:56:47. > :56:53.I would rather see mayors and police and crime commissioners

:56:54. > :56:55.elected without any involvement

:56:56. > :57:02.Unfortunately, all were getting now is just a reflection

:57:03. > :57:06.of the local politics where the person who stands for

:57:07. > :57:11.either Police and Crime Commissioner or the Mayor is just a party...

:57:12. > :57:15.That that person goes beyond becoming a figurehead

:57:16. > :57:17.and actually has too much control?

:57:18. > :57:20.I think the key is that you have to have somebody in that role

:57:21. > :57:22.who is prepared to work across party.

:57:23. > :57:26.So in the way that the greater Manchester local authorities

:57:27. > :57:28.have done, even though they've got mixed

:57:29. > :57:35.political leadership over the years

:57:36. > :57:37.which has led to this deal being achieved,

:57:38. > :57:39.I also think that we need much stronger scrutiny

:57:40. > :57:42.arrangements in greater Manchester because the mayor at the moment is

:57:43. > :57:44.only accountable through an election every few years.

:57:45. > :57:46.But I also think there's a real risk here which is

:57:47. > :57:50.that it's a fantastic thing that more power is coming to our region

:57:51. > :57:52.and we should all welcome it but Graham lapsed into,

:57:53. > :57:54.and I know it was just a shorthand about talking

:57:55. > :57:57.about Manchester and Liverpool and the cities.

:57:58. > :57:59.Actually, there is a problem here because behind Osborne's agenda

:58:00. > :58:02.was an idea that cities are engines of growth in this

:58:03. > :58:06.country and towns can form part of that region

:58:07. > :58:09.and be pulled along in their wake.

:58:10. > :58:15.Now, that can't be the sum total of our vision for places

:58:16. > :58:20.I want one for Cheshire, I want the same for Cheshire.

:58:21. > :58:25.But what I'm saying is we need to make sure that this

:58:26. > :58:27.model invests in all parts of our region

:58:28. > :58:32.Well, they may be redundant, you know, once we leave the EU.

:58:33. > :58:34.Because once we leave the EU and Parliament

:58:35. > :58:36.becomes sovereign again, so that you guys to go down there

:58:37. > :58:39.actually do make our laws rather than just being aggregating...

:58:40. > :58:40.Well, no, the whole point of having these

:58:41. > :58:43.devolved authorities and having a directly elected mayor is that

:58:44. > :58:46.After Brexit, you may find a different model at work.

:58:47. > :58:49.John, the one thing we've not mentioned is the

:58:50. > :58:52.The whole point of these is to get the north working

:58:53. > :58:55.together to rebalance the economy between the North and the South.

:58:56. > :58:58.If you have strong regional mayors,

:58:59. > :59:02.that will bring the whole of the North together,

:59:03. > :59:04.the infrastructure, the inward investment

:59:05. > :59:05.the global infrastructure of putting the North

:59:06. > :59:09.on the map so that the world will think about investing in the north

:59:10. > :59:10.rather than just in London and the south-east.

:59:11. > :59:12.London and the south-east is so, so powerful.

:59:13. > :59:14.And Lisa's right, we as politicians have

:59:15. > :59:18.This is why it's so important those mayors do

:59:19. > :59:19.do that to promote the North

:59:20. > :59:23.They shouldn't be members and connected to...

:59:24. > :59:26.We find out who they are on the 5th of May.

:59:27. > :59:29.Carol has got a look at the rest of this week's news now.

:59:30. > :59:36.The Justice Secretary was asked to review the

:59:37. > :59:39.suspended sentence handed to a man who beat his wife and

:59:40. > :59:45.A crime has been committed and it must be seen to be

:59:46. > :59:47.a crime that is abghorent to society and that

:59:48. > :59:49.must be reflected in the sentencing.

:59:50. > :59:52.A so-called Hillsborough law compelling public officials to

:59:53. > :59:56.be truthful at enquiries and ensuring legal aid for bereaved

:59:57. > :00:02.Could high-speed rail hit the buffers?

:00:03. > :00:04.The main contractor for the section of HS2 between Crewe and

:00:05. > :00:08.Manchester pulled out over a conflict-of-interest.

:00:09. > :00:14.They are designing, they are getting on with it.

:00:15. > :00:17.It's a large project and it will now be delayed.

:00:18. > :00:22.Also in a slot of bother, is the company due to

:00:23. > :00:24.build a new nuclear power station next to Sellafield.

:00:25. > :00:26.But Westinghouse said filing for bankruptcy protection

:00:27. > :00:27.would only affect projects in America.

:00:28. > :00:30.And a minute's silence was held in Salford to remember

:00:31. > :00:39.those who lost their lives in the terror attack in Westminster.

:00:40. > :00:47.Graham wants you to know he'll be running his sixth marathon

:00:48. > :00:49.on the 23rd, because he's modest like that(!)

:00:50. > :00:53.I'll hand you back to Andrew in London.

:00:54. > :01:06.So, what will be the effect of new tax and benefit changes

:01:07. > :01:10.Will the Government's grand trade tour reap benefits?

:01:11. > :01:12.And are the Lib Dems really going to replace Labour,

:01:13. > :01:25.To answer that last question, I'm joined by from Salford

:01:26. > :01:29.by the Lib Dem MP, Alistair Carmichael.

:01:30. > :01:39.Michael Fallon sirs the Lib Dems will replace Labour. How long will

:01:40. > :01:44.it take? We will have to wait and see. Anyone who thinks you can

:01:45. > :01:50.predict the future is engaged in a dodgy game. I have been campaigning

:01:51. > :01:54.with the Liberal Democrats in Manchester... You must not

:01:55. > :02:02.mention... You know the by-election rules. It is only an illustration.

:02:03. > :02:11.Across false ways of the country, the Liberal Democrats are back in

:02:12. > :02:15.business -- across whole swathes of the country. Part of the reason why

:02:16. > :02:21.we are getting a good response is because the Labour Party under

:02:22. > :02:26.Jeremy Corbyn has taken such a self-destructive path. Even if you

:02:27. > :02:29.do pretty well in the local elections, it you have to make up

:02:30. > :02:36.lost ground from the time you did very well in previous times, you

:02:37. > :02:41.used to have 4700 councillors. It will take you a long while to get

:02:42. > :02:44.back to that. You will get no argument from me that we have a

:02:45. > :02:49.mountain to climb. What I'm telling you is, and if this is not just in

:02:50. > :02:55.this round of elections, it is in the other by-elections in places

:02:56. > :03:00.like Richmond, and in by-elections write the length and breadth of the

:03:01. > :03:03.country since last June, the Liberal Democrats are taking seats from the

:03:04. > :03:11.Labour Party under Conservative Party, and not just in Brexit phobic

:03:12. > :03:15.areas. Not just in Remain areas. But in places like Sunderland as well

:03:16. > :03:21.which voted very heavily for Brexit. In fact, that vote was in large part

:03:22. > :03:25.as well a protest against the way in which the Labour Party really has

:03:26. > :03:31.taken these areas for granted over the years. That is why the ground is

:03:32. > :03:37.fertile for us. In the local elections which is what we are

:03:38. > :03:41.discussing today, why would anybody vote for the Liberal Democrats if

:03:42. > :03:49.they believed in Brexit? Mr Farren has said he wants to reverse works.

:03:50. > :03:53.If you are Brexit supporter and you are considering how to cast your

:03:54. > :03:57.vote, first of all, I think you will be looking at the quality of

:03:58. > :04:01.representation you can get for your local area and you are right, we

:04:02. > :04:10.have a lot of ground to recoup from previous elections, we lost 124

:04:11. > :04:14.seats, communities have now had a few years to reflect on the quality

:04:15. > :04:17.of service they have been able to get and they have missed the very

:04:18. > :04:23.effective liberal Democrat councillors they have had. This is

:04:24. > :04:28.not just about whether you are a believer or remainer, ultimately,

:04:29. > :04:34.that is an issue we are going to have to settle and we will settle it

:04:35. > :04:38.not in the way the Government is having by dictating the terms of the

:04:39. > :04:43.debate, but by bringing the whole country together. I think that is

:04:44. > :04:47.something you can only do if, as we have suggested, you give the people

:04:48. > :04:51.the opportunity to have a say on the deal when Theresa May eventually

:04:52. > :04:56.produces it. The only way you could really replace Labour in the

:04:57. > :05:01.foreseeable future would be if a big chunk of the centre and right of the

:05:02. > :05:07.Labour Party came over and join due in some kind of new social

:05:08. > :05:12.democratic alliance. -- joined you. There is no sign that will happen? I

:05:13. > :05:15.do not see whether common purpose is anymore holding the Labour Party

:05:16. > :05:20.together. That is for people in the Labour Party to make their own

:05:21. > :05:28.decisions. Use what happened to the Labour Party in Scotland. -- you

:05:29. > :05:32.saw. Politics moved on and left them behind and they were decimated as a

:05:33. > :05:36.consequence of that. So was your party. It is possible the same thing

:05:37. > :05:42.could happen to the Labour Party and the rest of the UK. Politics is

:05:43. > :05:49.moving on and they are coming up with 1970s solutions to problems in

:05:50. > :05:54.2017. Alistair Carmichael, thanks for joining us. Let us have a look

:05:55. > :06:00.at some of the tax and benefit changes coming up this week. The tax

:06:01. > :06:04.changes first of all. The personal allowance is going to rise to

:06:05. > :06:10.?11,500, the level at which you start to pay tax. The higher rate

:06:11. > :06:16.threshold, where you start to play at 40%, that will rise from

:06:17. > :06:24.currently ?43,400, rising up to 40 5000. -- pay. Benefit changes,

:06:25. > :06:31.freeze on working age benefits, removal of the family element of tax

:06:32. > :06:36.credits and universal credit, that is a technical change but quite an

:06:37. > :06:42.impact. The child element of tax credit is going to be limited to two

:06:43. > :06:49.children on any new claims. The Resolution Foundation has crunched

:06:50. > :06:55.the numbers and they discovered that when you take the tax and benefit

:06:56. > :07:03.changes together, 80% go to better off households and the poorest third

:07:04. > :07:08.or worse. What help -- what happened to help the just about managing? The

:07:09. > :07:13.Resolution Foundation exists to find the worst possible statistics... It

:07:14. > :07:19.is not clear the figures are wrong? They are fairly recent figures and I

:07:20. > :07:23.have not seen analysis by other organisations. The Adam Smith

:07:24. > :07:27.Institute will probably have some question marks over it. Nobody

:07:28. > :07:30.should be surprised a Tory government is trying to make the

:07:31. > :07:37.state smaller... And the poor poorer. The system is propped up by

:07:38. > :07:40.better off people and so it will be those people who will be slightly

:07:41. > :07:48.less heavily taxed as you make the state smaller. Theresa May will have

:07:49. > :07:53.to stop just talking about the just about managing. And some of her

:07:54. > :07:57.other language and the role of the government and the state when she

:07:58. > :08:01.sounded quite positive... She sounded like a big government

:08:02. > :08:06.conservative not small government. In every set piece occasion, she

:08:07. > :08:14.says, it is time to look at the good the government can do. That is not

:08:15. > :08:18.what you heard from Mrs Thatcher. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown would

:08:19. > :08:23.not have dared to say it either even if they believed it. It raises a

:08:24. > :08:29.much bigger question which is, as well as whether this is a set of

:08:30. > :08:34.progressive measures, the Resolution Foundation constantly argued when

:08:35. > :08:36.George Osborne announced his budget measures as progressive when they

:08:37. > :08:41.were regressive when they checked out the figures, but also how this

:08:42. > :08:45.government was going to meet the demand for public services when it

:08:46. > :08:50.has ruled out virtually any tax rises that you would normally do

:08:51. > :08:56.now, including National Insurance. There are a whole range of nightmare

:08:57. > :08:59.issues on Philip Hammond's in-tray in relation to tax. The Resolution

:09:00. > :09:05.Foundation figures do not include the rise in the minimum wage which

:09:06. > :09:08.has just gone under way. They do not include the tax free childcare from

:09:09. > :09:14.the end of April, the extra 15 hours of free childcare from September.

:09:15. > :09:17.Even when you include these, it does not look like it would offset the

:09:18. > :09:23.losses of the poorest households. Doesn't that have to be a problem

:09:24. > :09:26.for Theresa May? It really is a problem especially when her

:09:27. > :09:31.narrative and indeed entire purpose in government is for that just about

:09:32. > :09:37.managing. What Mrs May still has which is exactly a problem they have

:09:38. > :09:39.at the budget and the Autumn Statement is that they are still

:09:40. > :09:46.saddled with George Osborne's massive ring fences on tax cuts and

:09:47. > :09:50.spending. They have to go through with the tax cut for the middle

:09:51. > :09:53.classes by pushing up the higher rate threshold which is absolutely

:09:54. > :09:57.going to do nothing for the just about managing. When they try to

:09:58. > :10:00.mitigate that, for example, in the Autumn Statement, Philip Hammond was

:10:01. > :10:06.told to come up with more money to ease the cuts in tax credits, came

:10:07. > :10:11.up with 350 million, an absolute... It is billions and billions

:10:12. > :10:15.involved. Marginal adjustment. A huge problem with the actual tax and

:10:16. > :10:19.benefit changes going on with what Mrs May as saying. The only way to

:10:20. > :10:24.fix it is coming up with more money to alleviate that. Where will you

:10:25. > :10:28.find it? Philip Hammond tried in the Budget with the National Insurance

:10:29. > :10:33.rises but it lasted six and a half days. I was told that it was one of

:10:34. > :10:38.the reasons why the Chancellor looked kindly on the idea of an

:10:39. > :10:44.early election because he wanted to get rid of what he regards as an

:10:45. > :10:48.albatross around his neck, the Tory manifesto 2015, no increase in

:10:49. > :10:54.income tax, no increase in VAT, no increase in National Insurance, fuel

:10:55. > :10:57.duty was not cut when fuel prices were falling so it is hardly going

:10:58. > :11:03.to rise now when they are rising again. This is why, I suggest, they

:11:04. > :11:07.end up in these incredibly complicated what we used to call

:11:08. > :11:12.stealth taxes as ways of trying to raise money and invariably a blow up

:11:13. > :11:17.in your face. Stealth taxes never end up being stealthy. It is part of

:11:18. > :11:23.the narrative that budget begins to fall apart within hours. You have to

:11:24. > :11:27.have sympathy, as Tom says, with Philip Hammond. No wonder he would

:11:28. > :11:31.like to be liberated. The early election will not happen. The best

:11:32. > :11:35.argument I have heard for an early election. The tax and spend about at

:11:36. > :11:40.the last election was a disaster partly because the Conservatives

:11:41. > :11:45.feared they would lose. Maybe they could be a bit more candid about the

:11:46. > :11:51.need to put up some taxes to pay for public services and it is very

:11:52. > :11:55.interesting what you picked up on Philip Hammond because he is

:11:56. > :12:02.trapped. So constrained about... You can also reopen the Ring fencing and

:12:03. > :12:08.spending and the obvious place to go is the triple lock, OAP spending.

:12:09. > :12:13.Another case for an election. He cannot undo the promise to that

:12:14. > :12:17.demographic. We will not get to 2020 without something breaking. The

:12:18. > :12:25.Prime Minister, the trade secretary and Mr Hammond, they are off to

:12:26. > :12:31.India, the Far East, talking up trade with these countries, I do not

:12:32. > :12:36.know if any of you are going? Sadly not. Will it produce dividends? The

:12:37. > :12:42.prime Minster is going somewhere too. No, it will not, the honest

:12:43. > :12:46.answer. No one will do a trade deal with us because we cannot do one

:12:47. > :12:49.because we are still in the EU and they need to know what our terms

:12:50. > :12:53.will be with the EU first before they can work out how they want to

:12:54. > :12:58.trade with us. This is vital preparatory work. Ministers always

:12:59. > :13:02.go somewhere in recess, it is what they do. We will not see anything in

:13:03. > :13:08.a hurry, we will not see anything for two years. They have to do it.

:13:09. > :13:13.Whatever side of the joint you are on, Brexit, remain, we need to get

:13:14. > :13:17.out there. -- the argument. We should have been doing this the day

:13:18. > :13:21.after the referendum result. It is now several months down the line and

:13:22. > :13:27.they need to step it up, not the opposite. You can make some informal

:13:28. > :13:31.talks, I guess. You can say, Britain is open for business. There is a

:13:32. > :13:36.symbolism to it. What a lot of energy sucked up into this.

:13:37. > :13:43.Parliament is not sitting so they might as well start talking. We have

:13:44. > :13:47.run out of energy and time. That is it for today. We are off for the

:13:48. > :13:51.Easter recess, back in two weeks' time. If it is Sunday, it is the

:13:52. > :14:20.Sunday Politics. Unless it is that used to recess! -- Easter recess.

:14:21. > :14:23.Marine Le Pen has her eyes on the French presidency.

:14:24. > :14:27.As she tries to distance herself from her party's controversial past,

:14:28. > :14:51.we follow the money and ask, "Who's funding her campaign?"

:14:52. > :15:00.I think I've died and gone to heaven. Saluti. Chin-chin.

:15:01. > :15:05.So, can anybody speak Italian? No. Non parlo italiano.