:00:36. > :00:40.Good morning and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.New CCTV images are released showing suicide bomber, Salman Abedi,
:00:44. > :00:47.on the night he attacked Manchester Arena, killing 22 people.
:00:48. > :00:49.Are the politicians and the security services doing
:00:50. > :00:55.Theresa May says Britain needs to be "stronger and more resolute"
:00:56. > :00:58.in confronting extremist views, as she outlines plans
:00:59. > :01:02.for a new Commission to counter extremism.
:01:03. > :01:06.We'll be talking to the Security Minister.
:01:07. > :01:08.Jeremy Corbyn says a Labour government would recruit 1,000
:01:09. > :01:13.more staff at security and intelligence agencies.
:01:14. > :01:17.Security is stepped up at events across Manchester.
:01:18. > :01:20.The city keeps on running - we ask, does politics need to pick
:01:21. > :01:32.what the Conservatives are offering the capital, having voted Remain.
:01:33. > :01:35.To help guide me through this morning, I'm joined by
:01:36. > :01:36.Steve Richards, Julia Hartley-Brewer and Tim Marshall.
:01:37. > :01:41.They'll be sharing their thoughts on Twitter and you can join
:01:42. > :01:49.So, with a week and a half to go, the election campaign
:01:50. > :01:52.And some recent polls suggest the race is just
:01:53. > :01:59.We'll be taking a closer look at that in just a moment but, first,
:02:00. > :02:02.here are some of the key events over the next 10 days or so:
:02:03. > :02:07.Tonight at 6pm will see the third of the party leader interviews.
:02:08. > :02:09.This time it's the SNP's Nicola Sturgeon facing questions
:02:10. > :02:15.While many across the UK will be enjoying tomorrow's bank holiday,
:02:16. > :02:17.there will be no break in campaigning for
:02:18. > :02:23.And in the evening it will be the turn of Ukip's Paul Nuttall
:02:24. > :02:27.On Tuesday the SNP publish their manifesto -
:02:28. > :02:30.the last of the major parties to do so - after last week's
:02:31. > :02:33.Then on Wednesday, the BBC's Election Debate will see
:02:34. > :02:37.representatives from the seven main parties debate in front
:02:38. > :02:46.On Thursday, Lib Dem leader Tim Farron will have his interview...
:02:47. > :02:48.Before Friday's Question Time special with Theresa May
:02:49. > :02:51.They won't debate each other, but will take questions
:02:52. > :02:53.consecutively from members of the audience.
:02:54. > :02:56.The final week of campaigning is a short one, with politicians
:02:57. > :03:04.cramming in three days of door-knocking before voters go
:03:05. > :03:10.We'll have an exit poll once voting has ended at 10pm,
:03:11. > :03:13.with the result expected early in the morning of June 9th.
:03:14. > :03:16.Well, it's Sunday, and that always means a spate of new opinion
:03:17. > :03:19.And they make for fascinating, if a tad confusing, reading.
:03:20. > :03:21.There are five new opinion polls today, which have
:03:22. > :03:23.the Conservative lead over Labour anywhere from six
:03:24. > :03:26.points to 14 points. So, what's going on?
:03:27. > :03:29.Professor John Curtice is the expert we always turn
:03:30. > :03:37.to at times like this, and he joins me from Glasgow.
:03:38. > :03:45.Take us through these polls. They seem to be all over the place? They
:03:46. > :03:50.may seem to be but there is a very consistent key message. Four of
:03:51. > :03:52.these five polls, if you compare them with what they were saying
:03:53. > :03:58.before the Conservative manifesto launch on the 18th, four say the
:03:59. > :04:04.Conservatives are down by two points. Four of them say the Labour
:04:05. > :04:10.vote is up by two points. A clear consistent message. The Conservative
:04:11. > :04:15.lead has narrowed. Why does this matter? It matters because we are
:04:16. > :04:19.now in a position where the leads are such that the Conservatives can
:04:20. > :04:24.no longer be sure of getting the landslide majority they want. Some
:04:25. > :04:28.posters suggesting they may be in trouble and it is going to get
:04:29. > :04:38.rather close. Others suggested is further apart. There are two major
:04:39. > :04:42.sources of... The Poles agree that young voters will vote Labour if
:04:43. > :04:48.they vote. Older voters will vote for the Conservatives. How many of
:04:49. > :04:52.those younger voters will turn out to vote? The second thing is whether
:04:53. > :04:56.the evidence in the opinion polls that the Conservatives are advancing
:04:57. > :05:00.more in the North of England and the Midlands is realised that the ballot
:05:01. > :05:04.box? If it is not realised, the Tories chances of getting a
:05:05. > :05:09.landslide look remote. If it is, they could still well indeed get a
:05:10. > :05:13.majority more than 80%. The Conservatives have lost some ground
:05:14. > :05:20.depending on which opinion poll you look at. What about the Labour
:05:21. > :05:25.Party? It is gaining ground. It has been gaining ground ever since week
:05:26. > :05:30.one. They started on 26, they now average 35. There were a lot of
:05:31. > :05:34.people out there at the beginning of the campaign who were saying, I
:05:35. > :05:39.usually vote Labour but the truth is I'm not sure about Jeremy Corbyn.
:05:40. > :05:44.They seem to have decided the Labour manifesto wasn't so bad. They have
:05:45. > :05:50.looked at Theresa May and have said, we will stick with Labour. Labour
:05:51. > :05:52.have managed to draw back into the fold some of their traditional
:05:53. > :05:56.voters who were disenchanted, together with, crucially, some of
:05:57. > :06:02.those younger voters who have never voted before, who have always been a
:06:03. > :06:05.particular target for Jeremy Corbyn. What is your reaction to previous
:06:06. > :06:09.opinion polls and elections weather has been a feeling that some of the
:06:10. > :06:15.Labour support has been overstated? This be a worry this time? That is
:06:16. > :06:18.one of the uncertainties that faces the opinion polls and the rest of
:06:19. > :06:23.us. We had a conference on Friday at which it was carefully explained
:06:24. > :06:28.that pollsters have been trying to correct the errors that resulted in
:06:29. > :06:33.an overestimation of Labour support a couple of years ago, particularly
:06:34. > :06:36.among younger voters. You shouldn't assume the opinion polls will be
:06:37. > :06:40.wrong this time because they were wrong the last time. We want in
:06:41. > :06:49.truth know whether or not the polls have got it right. Even if they are
:06:50. > :06:52.wrong in terms of the level, they are not wrong in terms of the trend.
:06:53. > :06:59.The trends have been dramatic so far. A big rise in Tory support
:07:00. > :07:04.early on at the expense of Ukip. And subsequently, a remarkable rise in
:07:05. > :07:08.Labour support, albeit from a low initial baseline. This election has
:07:09. > :07:11.already seen quite a lot of movement. We shouldn't rule out the
:07:12. > :07:20.possibility there will be yet more in the ten days to come.
:07:21. > :07:24.That is his analysis. Let's talk to the panel. Julia, how concerned
:07:25. > :07:30.should Conservative headquarters be at this particular point at what
:07:31. > :07:33.looks like an apparent surge by Labour? Depends if you want a
:07:34. > :07:39.massive landslide majority or might not. I assume the Tory party do.
:07:40. > :07:45.Whether anybody thinks that is a good idea is a different matter.
:07:46. > :07:51.Undoubtedly the manifesto league was a total disaster. Social care policy
:07:52. > :07:55.and the U-turn. Lots of stuff in the Labour manifesto was very appealing.
:07:56. > :07:59.The tactic from Sir Lynton Crosby was clear. It is all about Theresa
:08:00. > :08:04.May. Don't even mention the candidate or the party. The Labour
:08:05. > :08:09.Party, the candidates are on the moderate side are saying, don't
:08:10. > :08:12.mention Jeremy Corbyn. This has been a battle between two big people. The
:08:13. > :08:17.more we have seen of Theresa May, she has gone down. The more we have
:08:18. > :08:22.seen of Jeremy Corbyn, he has gone up. If you make it about strong and
:08:23. > :08:25.stable leadership and then you do something like a massive
:08:26. > :08:30.unprecedented U-turn on a key policy like social care, the knock is even
:08:31. > :08:33.greater. Do you think that is the reason for the change in the opinion
:08:34. > :08:38.polls or is Labour gaining some momentum? I think it is part of the
:08:39. > :08:41.reason. You can understand why the focus was on her at the beginning
:08:42. > :08:45.because her personal ratings were stratospheric. What is interesting
:08:46. > :08:51.is all successful leaders basically cast a spell over voters in the
:08:52. > :08:55.media. None of them are titans. All of them are flawed. It is a question
:08:56. > :09:00.of when the spell is broken. This is a first for a leader's spell to be
:09:01. > :09:03.broken during an election campaign. That was a moment of high
:09:04. > :09:09.significance. The fact the Labour Party campaign is more robust than
:09:10. > :09:14.many thought it would be is the other factor. I think it is the
:09:15. > :09:16.combination of the two, that the trend, as Professor John Curtis
:09:17. > :09:22.said, the trend has been this narrow. There has not been much
:09:23. > :09:26.campaigning. Local campaigning resumed on Thursday, national
:09:27. > :09:30.campaigning on Friday. Do you think, Tim Marshall, that the opinion polls
:09:31. > :09:32.are reflecting what happened in Manchester and people's thoughts
:09:33. > :09:38.about which party will keep them safe? No, I think that will come
:09:39. > :09:41.next week. I think it is too soon for that. It was quite
:09:42. > :09:48.understandable from the V -- the very beginning for Lynton Crosby to
:09:49. > :09:55.frame the campaign in terms of Theresa May and Brexit. The
:09:56. > :10:00.electorate can have its own view. You always have to go back to
:10:01. > :10:06.Clinton's it's the economy stupid for most of the electorate. It is
:10:07. > :10:11.framed in your electricity bill. It is framed in your jobs. Both
:10:12. > :10:17.manifestos have got more holes in them than Swiss cheese. It comes
:10:18. > :10:20.down to which manifesto you believe. The Labour manifesto makes more
:10:21. > :10:25.promises about things you care about like your electricity bill.
:10:26. > :10:29.Interesting, but in the end despite while we thought would be a Brexit
:10:30. > :10:33.election, it has been a lot about public services. It always comes
:10:34. > :10:39.down to bread-and-butter issues. I don't think we have quite seen how
:10:40. > :10:42.the terrorist you has played out. We had the Westminster attack only a
:10:43. > :10:46.couple of months ago. That was already factored in in terms of who
:10:47. > :10:52.you trust and who you don't trust. The IRA stuff from Jeremy Corbyn is
:10:53. > :10:55.already factored in. People actually care about how ordinary government
:10:56. > :10:57.policies affect their lives. Thank you very much.
:10:58. > :10:59.The election campaign was, of course, put on hold
:11:00. > :11:01.following the terrorist attack in Manchester
:11:02. > :11:04.But now that campaigning has resumed, it's hardly
:11:05. > :11:06.surprising that security is now a primary concern.
:11:07. > :11:08.The Labour Party has announced it would recruit 1,000 more
:11:09. > :11:23.Jeremy Corbyn, speaking on ITV at short while ago, says previous cuts
:11:24. > :11:27.have undermined security. It seems that the cuts in police
:11:28. > :11:31.numbers have led to some very dangerous situation is emerging. It
:11:32. > :11:37.is also a question of a community response as well. So that where, an
:11:38. > :11:41.imam, for example, lets the police he is concerned about a muddy, I
:11:42. > :11:44.would hope they would act. And I would hope we have -- and I would
:11:45. > :11:46.hope they would have the resources to act as well.
:11:47. > :11:48.Joining me now from Leeds is the Shadow Justice
:11:49. > :11:57.Good morning. You have announced a thousand more Security and
:11:58. > :12:01.Intelligence agency staff. That is in line with what the government has
:12:02. > :12:05.already announced and the Shadow Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, has
:12:06. > :12:09.said you would not be spending any more money. It doesn't amount to
:12:10. > :12:14.much, does it? That is just one of the parts of our pledge card on the
:12:15. > :12:20.safer communities. There is also 10,000 extra police, because the
:12:21. > :12:24.Conservatives cut the police by 20,000. That 10,000 extra police
:12:25. > :12:29.would mean in -- and extra police officer in each neighbourhood. There
:12:30. > :12:37.are 3000 extra put -- prison officers. Prison staff has been cut
:12:38. > :12:40.by 6000. That is a third. It is not helping keep communities safer. We
:12:41. > :12:46.are pledging 3000 extra firefighters. Also, a thousand extra
:12:47. > :12:55.security staff and 500 extra border guards. There have been 13 areas
:12:56. > :12:59.identified where our borders are not as secure as they should be. That is
:13:00. > :13:03.the list of numbers you have given. If we concentrate on the security
:13:04. > :13:07.services, because it was Jeremy Corbyn he said there will be more
:13:08. > :13:13.police on the streets under Labour. If the security sources need more
:13:14. > :13:18.resources they should get them. Why aren't you giving them more? We are
:13:19. > :13:21.committing to a thousand more police. The Godinet is doing that as
:13:22. > :13:28.well. You are not committing anything more. The government has
:13:29. > :13:33.not delivered on that promise. We will deliver on that promise is --
:13:34. > :13:38.promise. What Jeremy has made very clear is that you can't do security
:13:39. > :13:44.on the cheap. Austerity has to stop at the police station door, and at
:13:45. > :13:47.the hospital door. But we will be giving the resources required to
:13:48. > :13:54.keep our communities safer. So you will give them the resources and
:13:55. > :13:58.more powers? Well, the police need to be empowered. But when you listen
:13:59. > :14:02.to what the Police Federation are saying, they have been speaking out
:14:03. > :14:08.for a long time about the danger caused by police cuts. And I'm
:14:09. > :14:12.talking not only about terrorism, not only about acts of extreme
:14:13. > :14:18.violence, but anything from anti-social behaviour to burglary.
:14:19. > :14:23.Use it more powers. What sort of powers are you thinking of giving
:14:24. > :14:29.the security services? We need to listen to them. That is not a power.
:14:30. > :14:34.We need to listen to the intelligence community and the
:14:35. > :14:37.security service, to the army and the police, about what they think
:14:38. > :14:42.and how they think our communities could be made safe. One thing is
:14:43. > :14:47.clear. Cutting the number of police by 20,000 makes our community is
:14:48. > :14:51.less safe, not more safe. You said you will listen to the security
:14:52. > :14:57.services. Can voters be reassured and guaranteed that Jeremy Corbyn
:14:58. > :15:02.will listen to the security services and the police in terms of more
:15:03. > :15:05.powers if that is what they want? Until now he has spent his whole
:15:06. > :15:09.political career voting against measures designed to tackle
:15:10. > :15:15.home-grown and international terrorism. Jeremy Corbyn's speech on
:15:16. > :15:20.safer communities earlier this week made clear he is listening to the
:15:21. > :15:24.security services. So he would grant those new powers. He voted against
:15:25. > :15:32.the terrorism Act in 2000, into thousands and six. In 2011. And in
:15:33. > :15:38.2014, the data retention and investigatory Powers act. Which new
:15:39. > :15:42.powers will he be happy to enact? Just to say, Jeremy Corbyn along
:15:43. > :15:47.with Theresa May, David Davis and many Conservative MPs, voted against
:15:48. > :15:50.legislation where they thought it would be ill-advised, ineffective or
:15:51. > :15:55.actually counter-productive. It is a very complex situation. What we
:15:56. > :16:00.don't want to do is introduce hastily prepared laws with one eye
:16:01. > :16:04.to the newspaper headlines, which can act as recruiting sergeants for
:16:05. > :16:07.terrorism. And actually, when I said earlier that Jeremy Corbyn made
:16:08. > :16:11.clear in his speech this week that he has been listening to the
:16:12. > :16:14.security services, what he said about the international situation
:16:15. > :16:20.has also been said by the former head of MI5, Stella Rimington, and
:16:21. > :16:20.her predecessor. As well as president of back -- President
:16:21. > :16:30.Barack Obama. You say he will give the police and
:16:31. > :16:33.security services the resources and powers they need. If we look back at
:16:34. > :16:39.some of the legislation Jeremy Corbyn and others voted against in
:16:40. > :16:49.2000, it gave the Secretary of State the -- new powers... Does Jeremy
:16:50. > :16:53.Corbyn still think that is a bad idea? Jeremy Corbyn along with
:16:54. > :16:59.Theresa May, David Davis and others... I know you want to bracket
:17:00. > :17:02.it with Conservatives but I'm interested in what Jeremy Corbyn
:17:03. > :17:06.will do when he says we are going to be smarter about fighting terrorism.
:17:07. > :17:12.If he's not prepared to vote in favour of those sorts of measures,
:17:13. > :17:18.or trying to impose restrictions on suspects, I'm trying to find out
:17:19. > :17:22.what he will do. It is a complex situation. With this legislation the
:17:23. > :17:26.devil is often in the detail. If it was a simple and stopping terrorism
:17:27. > :17:31.by voting a piece of legislation through Parliament, it would have
:17:32. > :17:37.been stopped a long time ago. Sadly there are no easy answers, and that
:17:38. > :17:41.is recognised by Barack Obama, Stella Rimington, the head of the
:17:42. > :17:46.MI5, by David Davis and other Conservative MPs. What is clear, as
:17:47. > :17:49.Jeremy made clear in his speech this week, is the way things are being
:17:50. > :17:54.done currently is not working. We have got to be tough on terrorism
:17:55. > :17:58.and the unforgivable acts of murder, but also tough on the causes of
:17:59. > :18:03.terrorism as well. The sad truth is there are no easy answers. If there
:18:04. > :18:15.were, the problem would have been solved a long time ago. If you more
:18:16. > :18:18.security and terrorism officers but your leader is still uncomfortable
:18:19. > :18:20.with giving them the powers they need to do their jobs because it is
:18:21. > :18:23.complicated legislation, they will want to know how you are going to do
:18:24. > :18:38.it. At another stop the War rally in 2014, Jeremy Corbyn said the murder
:18:39. > :18:41.of a charity worker was jingoism. At the beginning of that speech he
:18:42. > :18:47.mentioned the importance of the one-minute silence for the memory of
:18:48. > :18:51.Alan Henning who was murdered. What he has also made clear is
:18:52. > :18:56.responsibility for acts of terrorism and murder lies with the murder, and
:18:57. > :19:02.something that's really disappointed me is that the Prime Minister said
:19:03. > :19:16.the other day that in Jeremy Corbyn's speech on this on Monday,
:19:17. > :19:21.he said... Whether she agrees with him on his politics, she knows he
:19:22. > :19:24.didn't say that in his speech, but what troubles me is you have got a
:19:25. > :19:28.Prime Minister who must have sat down with her advisers earlier that
:19:29. > :19:32.day and said, well I do know he didn't say that but if we say he did
:19:33. > :19:37.we might win some votes. I think that is shameful and it shows
:19:38. > :19:40.Theresa May cannot be trusted. These issues should transcend party
:19:41. > :19:44.politics. We need to pull together on this issue. Thank you very much.
:19:45. > :19:47.Well, the Conservatives have promised a new statutory commission
:19:48. > :19:50.The party says it will identify extremism, including
:19:51. > :19:52.the "non-violent" kind, and help communities stand up to it.
:19:53. > :19:54.Also this morning, the Security Minister, Ben Wallace,
:19:55. > :19:56.has attacked internet giants for failing to tackle terror
:19:57. > :19:58.online, and accused them of being ruthless money-makers.
:19:59. > :20:11.Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Those comments you have made about
:20:12. > :20:16.social media companies failing in their responsibility to take down
:20:17. > :20:20.extremist material, what will you do to compel them? I think we will look
:20:21. > :20:25.at the range of options. The Germans have proposed a fine, we are not
:20:26. > :20:30.sure whether that will work, but there are range of pressures we can
:20:31. > :20:35.put onto some of these companies. Some have complied. In the article
:20:36. > :20:40.in the Sunday Telegraph today I did say it is not all of them. They are
:20:41. > :20:44.not immune to pressure. We can do internationally, and the Prime
:20:45. > :20:48.Minister urged at the G7 and international response. I think
:20:49. > :20:54.there are a range of issues. We could change the law. You mentioned
:20:55. > :20:59.the G7, and rhetoric and warm words are fine to an extent but it is
:21:00. > :21:02.action people want. If you have made these impassioned remarks in the
:21:03. > :21:08.newspapers about them failing to do the job, people want to know what
:21:09. > :21:13.powers do you have now to say to social media companies take down
:21:14. > :21:16.this material? We have an act that was recently passed. In this area we
:21:17. > :21:23.have just finished consulting on one of the areas we could use but we
:21:24. > :21:29.cannot pre-empt the consultation. We have right now officials from my
:21:30. > :21:34.department over in the United States with American officials working with
:21:35. > :21:40.CSPs because what we see is that they do respond to pressure. The
:21:41. > :21:44.best example is we think they have the technology and the capability to
:21:45. > :21:50.change the algorithms they use that maximise profit over safety. But you
:21:51. > :21:53.are relying on these companies devoting more resources to this line
:21:54. > :21:59.of work that you would like to see them do. Have you got any evidence
:22:00. > :22:03.they will do that? They said, only a few weeks ago before the election
:22:04. > :22:07.was called the Home Secretary hosted a Round Table with them. We have
:22:08. > :22:13.evidence they are trying to improve it. A few are refusing to or being
:22:14. > :22:16.difficult, and that's why the Prime Minister was right to step up not
:22:17. > :22:21.only the language she was using but to say we are not going to allow
:22:22. > :22:24.this to progress any more. People will be worried about who will make
:22:25. > :22:30.the judgment about what is unacceptable and what should be
:22:31. > :22:34.taken down. Let me show you this, which was shared widely across
:22:35. > :22:40.social media. If you read that quote you could argue it is at the same
:22:41. > :22:43.end if you like. The man in the picture is a terrorist hate
:22:44. > :22:49.preacher, the jihadist who was killed in Yemen by the Americans. Is
:22:50. > :22:54.this the sort of thing you would be demanding social media companies
:22:55. > :23:00.take down? You have to look at the context it was deployed in. I could
:23:01. > :23:04.show you some of the 270,000 pieces we have had removed since 2010 from
:23:05. > :23:09.internet sites that have been extreme. The big issue is not often
:23:10. > :23:13.the individual image, it is the way these companies set up the
:23:14. > :23:18.algorithms to link you. If you were watching that on Facebook delivered
:23:19. > :23:25.to you, perhaps you would like to look at this, because that's how
:23:26. > :23:34.they set it up. If you go onto YouTube, you can get let down the
:23:35. > :23:37.path from looking at Manchester... I understand your example, but from a
:23:38. > :23:45.practical level are you expecting media companies to take down that
:23:46. > :23:49.sort of posts if it appeared? Yes... You are? Who will make the decisions
:23:50. > :23:55.about what will radicalise young people that could lead someone down
:23:56. > :24:00.the path to let off a bomb? If I invite your viewers to look at the
:24:01. > :24:04.work the Guardian have done on Facebook guidance, to say for
:24:05. > :24:08.example it is OK to produce videos or broadcast videos of
:24:09. > :24:12.seven-year-olds being bullied as long as it wasn't accompanied by
:24:13. > :24:17.captions, I don't think you need to be an expert to say that is not
:24:18. > :24:22.acceptable. Something more worrying for you as a journalist and me as a
:24:23. > :24:27.politician, another set of guidance that says... I think this is quite
:24:28. > :24:33.menacing... That certain people don't deserve our protection. That
:24:34. > :24:36.includes journalists and politicians and people who are controversial. So
:24:37. > :24:42.I think there is more work to be done but at the end of the day it is
:24:43. > :24:45.the pathway this stuff leads to. It is more about examining how much
:24:46. > :24:49.progress you can make. The Government says there are up to
:24:50. > :24:56.23,000 potential terrorist attackers in this country, 3000 of those
:24:57. > :25:07.posing a serious threat being monitored. That is pretty
:25:08. > :25:11.disturbing, these are big numbers. Yes, and the tragedy of Manchester
:25:12. > :25:14.shows this is not about failure, it is about the scale of the challenge
:25:15. > :25:21.we face and that is why it is important that alongside people is
:25:22. > :25:25.powers. Should you double the size of MI5 for example? We have
:25:26. > :25:30.increased year-on-year in real terms not only the money but the numbers
:25:31. > :25:37.of people in MI5. It is now 2000 we have committed to increased to...
:25:38. > :25:42.Before the attack. Before our manifesto we had recruited, we have
:25:43. > :25:49.increased the whole of government spending on counterterrorism from
:25:50. > :25:57.?11.7 billion in 2015 up to 15.7 billion. Would you expand the number
:25:58. > :26:02.of people in MI5? I have asked them on a regular basis if they have the
:26:03. > :26:07.resource if they are happy with it, and the answer comes back time and
:26:08. > :26:12.time again, yes we are. You have quite extensive powers at your
:26:13. > :26:18.disposal, the question is if you are using them. Measures were introduced
:26:19. > :26:23.in 2012 to replace control orders, but they have rarely been used. Only
:26:24. > :26:32.seven are currently in operation. Why? Because there are a whole... It
:26:33. > :26:36.is just one tool in the tool box. Other powers we use, we take away
:26:37. > :26:45.people's passports if we think they are about to travel. How many? I
:26:46. > :26:48.cannot comment, it is a sensitive issue. Plenty of people are finding
:26:49. > :26:52.their passport has been removed and at the same time we strip people of
:26:53. > :27:01.citizenship to make sure they don't come back. On top of that, because
:27:02. > :27:03.of the investment made in GCHQ, MI5 and counterterrorism, we have more
:27:04. > :27:13.powers and more ability to monitor them. But are you using them enough?
:27:14. > :27:18.Only seven TPIMs are in operation. You won't give me any of the other
:27:19. > :27:22.measures at your disposal, but if they are only in single figures,
:27:23. > :27:28.that doesn't seem to compare with the numbers who are being monitored.
:27:29. > :27:33.Also, we have to strike a balance between... We have to satisfy the
:27:34. > :27:39.court so we have to make sure there is enough evidence to restrict
:27:40. > :27:44.people's freedoms. TPIMs do all sorts of good things to keep people
:27:45. > :27:52.safe. It sends people away from where they live, it tags them... I
:27:53. > :27:54.tell you why they are better. The control orders were on track to be
:27:55. > :28:00.struck down by the courts because one of the things we have to satisfy
:28:01. > :28:03.is the courts but we also have to satisfy, we have to make sure we get
:28:04. > :28:08.the balance between the community is right and the measures we take. If
:28:09. > :28:13.we alienate our communities, we won't get the intelligence that
:28:14. > :28:16.allows us to catch it. There is no point in having more police and
:28:17. > :28:22.intelligence services if you don't give them the powers to do the job.
:28:23. > :28:33.Jeremy Corbyn were licensed James Bond to do precisely nothing. And --
:28:34. > :28:35.thank you. The revelation that the Manchester
:28:36. > :28:43.suicide bomber, 22-year-old Salman Abedi, was born in this
:28:44. > :28:46.country has raised fresh concerns about the effectiveness of the UK's
:28:47. > :28:48.counter-extremism policy. In a moment we'll be talking to two
:28:49. > :28:51.people who've spent their careers investigating
:28:52. > :28:52.radicalisation in the UK. Douglas Murray,
:28:53. > :28:54.of the Henry Jackson Society, and Sara Khan, author of The Battle
:28:55. > :28:56.for British Islam and CEO of the counter-extremism
:28:57. > :28:58.organisation Inspire. We asked both for a personal take
:28:59. > :29:01.on how to confront the problem of Islamist extremism.
:29:02. > :29:04.First up, here's Douglas Murray. Even after all these dead,
:29:05. > :29:09.all this mourning and defiance, We remain stuck in the John Lennon
:29:10. > :29:27.response to terrorism - Our politicians still refuse
:29:28. > :29:31.to accurately identify the sources of the problem,
:29:32. > :29:32.and polite society This country gave asylum to
:29:33. > :29:39.the Libyan parents of Salman Abedi. Their son repaid that generosity
:29:40. > :29:43.by killing 22 British people, one for each year of life this
:29:44. > :29:50.country had given him. We need to think far more
:29:51. > :29:54.deeply about all this. Eastern Europe doesn't
:29:55. > :29:57.have an Islamic terrorism problem France has the worst problem
:29:58. > :30:05.because it has the most Islam. Are we ever going to draw
:30:06. > :30:09.any lessons from this? For the time being, the game
:30:10. > :30:17.is to be as inoffensive as possible. The rot isn't just within
:30:18. > :30:20.the Muslim communities. Consider all those retired British
:30:21. > :30:24.officials and others who shill, and are in the pay of the Saudis
:30:25. > :30:28.and other foreign states, even while they pump the extreme
:30:29. > :30:34.versions of Islam into our country. It is high time we
:30:35. > :30:44.became serious too. Islamist extremism is
:30:45. > :30:52.flourishing in our country. We're failing to defeat it,
:30:53. > :30:59.so what can we do about it? Whenever I say we must counter those
:31:00. > :31:02.Muslim organisations who are promoting hatred,
:31:03. > :31:07.discrimination, and sometimes even violence, I'm often either ignored
:31:08. > :31:11.by some politicians out of a misplaced fear of cultural
:31:12. > :31:14.sensitivity, or I find myself experiencing abuse by some
:31:15. > :31:17.of my fellow Muslims. These groups and their sympathisers
:31:18. > :31:26.tour Muslim communities, hold events, and have hundreds
:31:27. > :31:29.of thousands of followers Yet there is little counter
:31:30. > :31:33.challenge to their toxic anti-Western narrative,
:31:34. > :31:39.which includes opposition I've seen politicians
:31:40. > :31:44.and charities partner with and support some of these
:31:45. > :31:49.voices and groups. Many anti-racist groups
:31:50. > :31:55.will challenge those on the far right but not Muslim hate preachers,
:31:56. > :31:58.in the erroneous belief that to do But it's Islamophobic not
:31:59. > :32:05.to challenge them because it implies Following the attack on Monday,
:32:06. > :32:15.it cannot be business as usual. We must counter those
:32:16. > :32:29.who seek to divide us. Sarah Karen Allen Douglas Murray
:32:30. > :32:32.join me know. You wrote a book, strange death of Europe. What did
:32:33. > :32:39.you mean in your film when you said, let's get serious? Several things.
:32:40. > :32:43.Let me give you one example. The young man who carried out this
:32:44. > :32:47.atrocious attack was a student at Salford University for two years. He
:32:48. > :32:52.was on a campus which is, from its leadership to its student
:32:53. > :32:58.leadership, opposes all aspects of the government's only counter
:32:59. > :33:04.extremism programme. They boast they are boycotting it. They always did
:33:05. > :33:09.this. The university he was at was against the only counter extremism
:33:10. > :33:14.policy this state has. This is just one example of a much bigger
:33:15. > :33:20.problem. What are you suggesting? Shut down the University? Force them
:33:21. > :33:28.to change their policies? I think in the case of Salford, which
:33:29. > :33:35.discourages students from reporting Islamic extremism... When you
:33:36. > :33:39.discover you have produced a suicide bomber in Manchester, you should be
:33:40. > :33:45.held responsible. What do you say to that? I think it is quite clear from
:33:46. > :33:48.I am experienced there have been politicians who have undermined
:33:49. > :33:52.Prevent, community organisations, Islamist groups who have been at the
:33:53. > :34:01.forefront of undermining and countering Prevent, but also wider
:34:02. > :34:03.counter extremism measures. Islamist -- Islamist extremes and has
:34:04. > :34:08.flourished in this country. If Summer Rae had given us a crystal
:34:09. > :34:12.ball ten years ago and said, look forward and you will see hundreds of
:34:13. > :34:16.people leave this country to join Isis, we will have hundreds of
:34:17. > :34:19.people convicted of Islamist offences, I think we would have been
:34:20. > :34:23.quite shocked that things have got worse as opposed to getting better.
:34:24. > :34:26.Douglas Murray, the essence of your argument when you made the
:34:27. > :34:31.comparison between the numbers of Muslims in other countries is that
:34:32. > :34:35.we have too much Islam in Britain? The aunt Tilly Muslim Brotherhood
:34:36. > :34:41.give is that the answer to absolutely everything is Islam. Less
:34:42. > :34:45.Islam is a good thing. Let me finish. The Islamic world is in the
:34:46. > :34:49.middle of a very serious problem. It has been going on since the
:34:50. > :34:52.beginning. I think it is not worth continuing to risk our own security
:34:53. > :34:58.simply in order to be politically correct. I would disagree with
:34:59. > :35:03.Douglas on that. Nobody is going to deny that since the end of the 20th
:35:04. > :35:07.century there has been a rise in Islamist extreme terror
:35:08. > :35:11.organisations. Yes, there is a crisis within contemporary Islam,
:35:12. > :35:14.but there is a class. There are competing claims about what the
:35:15. > :35:18.faith stands for. While we are seeing Islamist terror
:35:19. > :35:25.organisations, leading theologians are saying that the concept of a
:35:26. > :35:30.caliphate is outdated. Muslims should be adopting a human rights
:35:31. > :35:35.culture. I entirely agree with that. There are obviously people trying to
:35:36. > :35:39.counter that. I would urge us to take the long view. In the history
:35:40. > :35:43.of Islam there have been many reformers. Most of the time they
:35:44. > :35:47.have ended a up being the ones on the brunt of the violence. I deeply
:35:48. > :35:53.resent what you and others do in this country. I want you to win. But
:35:54. > :35:57.they are a Billy good minority. A poll last year found that two thirds
:35:58. > :36:01.of British Muslims found they would not report a family member they
:36:02. > :36:11.found to be involved in extremism to the police. You are proposing more
:36:12. > :36:16.Draconian measures. I wish they could win. We should do everything
:36:17. > :36:19.we can to support people like that. What we should recognise the scale
:36:20. > :36:24.of the problem is beyond our current understanding. You counter
:36:25. > :36:28.radicalisation on a university campus or online? Discussion we had
:36:29. > :36:34.with Ben Wallace about the material that is out there. If we pursue in a
:36:35. > :36:40.hard-line way perhaps the sort of thing Douglas Murray is suggesting,
:36:41. > :36:46.gone is freedom of speech, gone is freedom of debate and discussion?
:36:47. > :36:50.The best way to counter extremism is through the prism of human rights.
:36:51. > :36:56.We cannot abandon our human rights to fight extremism. Where I think we
:36:57. > :37:03.are going wrong, where there is a gap, is the lack of counter work to
:37:04. > :37:08.challenge Islamist ideals. How many people are going to say we need to
:37:09. > :37:13.counter that strict narrative? That is where we are not doing enough
:37:14. > :37:19.work. What about the human rights point, that you cannot take away
:37:20. > :37:25.people's human rights? I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting we
:37:26. > :37:31.do things that ensure that 22 people don't get blown up on an average
:37:32. > :37:37.Monday again, OK? Dissent to be opposed to people want to blow up
:37:38. > :37:41.our daughters is not opposing human rights. If you're taking government
:37:42. > :37:44.money and you are an institution like Salford University you should
:37:45. > :37:49.be held responsible for not cooperating with standard security
:37:50. > :37:55.measures. You can challenge extremism without abandoning human
:37:56. > :37:58.rights. We have got to actually counter the Islamist narrative.
:37:59. > :38:03.We're not doing enough. This is not about closing down free speech. This
:38:04. > :38:06.is encouraging it. This is the most effective way of countering the
:38:07. > :38:15.Islamist narrative. Why isn't it doing better? A number of reasons.
:38:16. > :38:20.One is there is a denial taking place. A lot of apologetics. Part of
:38:21. > :38:23.it is the way we talk about Muslims in this country. We use the term
:38:24. > :38:29.Muslim community as if they are homogenous. There is a positive
:38:30. > :38:33.trend but there is a negative trend among British Muslims. We need to
:38:34. > :38:38.counter those promoting the idea that Muslims are part of a
:38:39. > :38:41.collective identity. I agree. It is also the case there is massive push
:38:42. > :38:45.back because a lot of Muslims are defending the faith in this country.
:38:46. > :38:49.We think we can push them down a better path but they are defending
:38:50. > :38:50.absolutely everything. We need to get real about that. Thank you very
:38:51. > :38:52.much. It's just gone 11.35,
:38:53. > :38:54.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers
:38:55. > :38:57.in Scotland, who leave us now Coming up here in 20
:38:58. > :39:09.minutes, the Week Ahead. I'm Nina Warhurst, welcome
:39:10. > :39:12.to the centre of Manchester. Behind me, along the city's famous
:39:13. > :39:16.Deansgate, thousands are taking part The half marathon started a couple
:39:17. > :39:25.of hours ago and more will set off shortly on a course
:39:26. > :39:27.of ten kilometres. People in Manchester and the wider
:39:28. > :39:31.City Region are trying to get back to normal
:39:32. > :39:35.after Monday's terror attack. Here to reflect on those events
:39:36. > :39:39.and to look ahead to the general election are Barbara Keeley,
:39:40. > :39:43.who's contesting Worsley David Mowat is the Conservative
:39:44. > :39:47.candidate in Warrington South. And John Leech is the Liberal
:39:48. > :39:49.democrat candidate for Before we hear from them,
:39:50. > :39:56.Let's hear from some of the runners. So proud to be from Manchester
:39:57. > :39:59.this week as well. Manchester being my home
:40:00. > :40:01.city, I wanted to come and show my support for what's gone
:40:02. > :40:05.on over the last week. And just be part of
:40:06. > :40:08.the community that's down here. When the IRA bombed
:40:09. > :40:10.the Arndale Centre, It carried on, and everything will
:40:11. > :40:30.carry on now. It's set to be a particular
:40:31. > :40:34.emotional run from lots of the people taking part today. Will end
:40:35. > :40:42.this week of Manchester's defiance and strength, demo we also learned
:40:43. > :40:43.that we are vulnerable. And a week of unthinkable people, we can call
:40:44. > :40:51.it that. But I have been very proud of our
:40:52. > :40:54.fabulous NHS staff, they way that people in this city had decided to
:40:55. > :41:02.stand shoulder to shoulder with the people of Manchester, united in
:41:03. > :41:10.supporting our Sister city. A wake-up call at the same time? All
:41:11. > :41:13.of us will remember being to Manchester Arena, picking our
:41:14. > :41:18.children up from the Manchester Arena. And Barbara's right, we've
:41:19. > :41:23.also seen the best of Manchester over the last few days. And we are
:41:24. > :41:27.seeing it again today. And we had that from the runners you
:41:28. > :41:33.interviewed. John, your been out about over the past week, how are
:41:34. > :41:36.people in Manchester? First for today, and the visuals during the
:41:37. > :41:41.week, it showed the true spread of Manchester. Manchester people are
:41:42. > :41:46.not going to stop going about their day to day lives because of a
:41:47. > :41:52.terrible tragedy. It was an appalling act of terrorism, but the
:41:53. > :41:57.people of Manchester will not bow down to that, they will carry on
:41:58. > :42:01.regardless, because that is what Manchester people do. We have seen
:42:02. > :42:04.evidence of that time and time again. It was described as the worst
:42:05. > :42:10.terror attack ever to hit the north of England. The attacker was born
:42:11. > :42:17.and bred here in Manchester, and the Chief Constable of Manchester police
:42:18. > :42:25.says he has uncovered much of the network he was working in.
:42:26. > :42:27.From the second Salman Abedi blew himself up on Monday night,
:42:28. > :42:30.ending 22 lives and shattering many more, the authorities were forced
:42:31. > :42:35.And forced to confront the reality of the security
:42:36. > :42:39.The police counterterrorism strategy is known as the four Ps.
:42:40. > :42:42.Three of them - Prepare, Protect and Persue -
:42:43. > :42:47.But it's the fourth one, Prevent, that has come in for some criticism
:42:48. > :42:53.Prevent requires public bodies and comunity groups to report any
:42:54. > :42:59.The mayor of Greater Manchester has, in the past, campaigned to scrap it.
:43:00. > :43:05.Some of the policies can lead to a whole cloud of suspicion
:43:06. > :43:09.hanging over a community, or that is how the communities can feel.
:43:10. > :43:12.Prevent has begun to be seen in that way by some
:43:13. > :43:17.And I would argue it is in need of a review.
:43:18. > :43:19.You cannot have policies targeted at just one community
:43:20. > :43:22.without creating a sense of division and alienation.
:43:23. > :43:26.They've already started talking about, is there a secondary target?
:43:27. > :43:31.Jim and Ian run a counterterrorism masters course at UClan in Preston.
:43:32. > :43:34.He was born in Syria and his family's still there.
:43:35. > :43:38.They use these rooms to train students in scenarios similar
:43:39. > :43:42.Do you think the counterterrorism strategy is broadly
:43:43. > :43:50.Some people are gone as far to say it radicalises people.
:43:51. > :43:58.I can't find any sense in that argument.
:43:59. > :44:01.I think there are much stronger arguments to say that, in fact,
:44:02. > :44:05.But has south Manchester become a centre of radicalisation?
:44:06. > :44:09.More than a dozen men from the streets have been involved
:44:10. > :44:18.Until a few years ago, Ian worked this beat
:44:19. > :44:25.It's so important that the police and other agencies do have very
:44:26. > :44:29.current, active and strong contacts in those communities.
:44:30. > :44:34.My personal experience has always been very, very positive.
:44:35. > :44:36.As long as explanation takes place, as long
:44:37. > :44:43.This iman has been involved in the Prevent strategy.
:44:44. > :44:45.If things have been missed here, if things have been lost,
:44:46. > :44:52.I will tell you for one, I will be the stronger voice out
:44:53. > :44:54.there to say why and bring those people to task.
:44:55. > :44:57.Because this is our faith - from my perspective, it's my faith
:44:58. > :45:00.Amina has written about extremism and the approach to it.
:45:01. > :45:04.Prevent has got a branding problem, but absolutely I'm a supporter
:45:05. > :45:08.I'm critical of it, it has flaws, it's not perfect.
:45:09. > :45:11.It's about preventing young people from being radicalised.
:45:12. > :45:16.How can anyone with a sane mind and some intellect be against that?
:45:17. > :45:20.As the police continue their work at various locations around
:45:21. > :45:24.Manchester, is the Prevent strategy helping or hindering the fight
:45:25. > :45:42.David, we let this week that Salman Abedi had been repeatedly reported
:45:43. > :45:46.to the authorities through the Prevent strategy, and yet this
:45:47. > :45:50.happen. Where does it go from here? No system is going to be 100%
:45:51. > :45:55.graphic. There is something like 2000 people at the interest in the
:45:56. > :45:59.Prevent strategy. He had been one of those and was no longer. Perhaps
:46:00. > :46:04.questions need to be asked about that. The fact is that the Prevent
:46:05. > :46:08.strategy has stopped four or five similar attacks to this since the
:46:09. > :46:13.Westminster bombing. And the bankers it is very difficult anybody to stop
:46:14. > :46:17.everything. As the IRA used to say, we may have to be lucky once, you
:46:18. > :46:22.had to be lucky every single time. I think it is misplaced to criticise
:46:23. > :46:31.the security services on that basis alone. Of course it is that as
:46:32. > :46:36.questions... Bid people who had been reported through Prevent...? Is
:46:37. > :46:41.always some people who have made that assessment will need to answer
:46:42. > :46:45.questions. There are several thousand people who had been
:46:46. > :46:52.reported, thousands every year. It's not that easy. I think it is
:46:53. > :46:58.certainly the case that the Prevent strategy has had some successes, but
:46:59. > :47:03.it is also very true it has had some significant failings. It has led to
:47:04. > :47:08.some resentment in certain parts of the community, and within schools
:47:09. > :47:14.and colleges where people think it's been a heavy-handed approach. It is
:47:15. > :47:19.the fact that it is then lead to resentment has probably not make the
:47:20. > :47:23.situation any better. Is that right, it has become counter-productive
:47:24. > :47:34.because it accuses of one group? It is not just Andrew Burnham that has
:47:35. > :47:37.described that way. The terror threat increased this week, and with
:47:38. > :47:43.hate crime rising, which usually happens as a follow-on, we have to
:47:44. > :47:47.look at resorting too. There has to be sufficient police resources. On
:47:48. > :47:53.the package, you had police patrolling. We've lost 2000 police
:47:54. > :47:57.officers in Greater Manchester since 2010, and there are serious
:47:58. > :47:59.questions to be asked. We want to recruit more neighbourhood police
:48:00. > :48:04.officers to be the first level of eyes and ears for intelligence. I
:48:05. > :48:10.just want to come back on that, because you said Prevent was
:48:11. > :48:15.targeted on one community, that isn't true. That is the perception.
:48:16. > :48:20.Then we need to tackle that perception, because it is not true.
:48:21. > :48:28.Because it picks a people and the far right as well. Video terrorism
:48:29. > :48:35.is that the Prevent strategy needs to be reviewed. He suggested this
:48:36. > :48:40.week that the training materials from eight should be published so it
:48:41. > :48:44.is clear that it is not aimed at one particular community. The truth is
:48:45. > :48:47.that we have a major issue here. Several thousands of people
:48:48. > :48:53.potentially out of their lives somehow being radicalised in a way
:48:54. > :48:58.that is really horrible, and we need to do with that as a society. We
:48:59. > :49:00.need to face up to it. It's about counterterrorism protectively and
:49:01. > :49:04.not as community officers on the beat. That is where the money needs
:49:05. > :49:10.to be spent. Rainbows and think it is also not just about Shia police
:49:11. > :49:16.numbers. It is about the fact that this particular individual was very
:49:17. > :49:23.well known to the services suggests that, yes, the Prevent strategy has
:49:24. > :49:29.worked in making people aware of his activism and his views, but,
:49:30. > :49:32.unfortunately, that had not been followed through with making sure he
:49:33. > :49:38.didn't turn into a radicalised Islamist. The police are going to be
:49:39. > :49:44.very stretched, there are many here today, and I'm sure the clouds are
:49:45. > :49:48.glad of that. But they are working round the clock shifts, there are
:49:49. > :49:51.very stretched. It is not just a question of bobbies on the beat,
:49:52. > :49:58.they can be the eyes and ears for state intelligence services. I did
:49:59. > :50:01.disagree with that, but I would also save the counterterrorism part of
:50:02. > :50:07.the budget is the part that is actually charged with making sure
:50:08. > :50:12.that people are reported through Prevent, and it's something not
:50:13. > :50:16.possible to follow 2000 people of interest across the country. We
:50:17. > :50:21.can't do that, we don't have the resources. Let's hear from the
:50:22. > :50:24.leader of Ukip, because they were the first party to get back to
:50:25. > :50:30.campaigning this week on Thursday, they launch their manifesto. And the
:50:31. > :50:32.next day, Jeremy Corbyn gave a speech on foreign policy. Let's hear
:50:33. > :50:33.from both. When I was elected leader
:50:34. > :50:36.of Ukip six months ago, I was clear right away
:50:37. > :50:38.that the threat posed to our country by Islamic fundamentalism was one
:50:39. > :50:42.of the major issues that I, and indeed all politicians,
:50:43. > :50:47.would face in the coming years. I also made it clear that extra
:50:48. > :50:52.investment in the security I would like to take a moment
:50:53. > :50:57.to speak to our soldiers You're doing your duty, as you have
:50:58. > :51:03.done so many times before. I want to assure you that,
:51:04. > :51:06.under my leadership, will only be deployed abroad
:51:07. > :51:12.when there is a clear need, and only when there is a plan that
:51:13. > :51:15.you have the resources to do your job and secure an outcome
:51:16. > :51:30.that delivers lasting peace. Barbara, a link between British
:51:31. > :51:32.foreign policy and the attacks in Manchester, implicit or otherwise
:51:33. > :51:37.from Jeremy Corbyn - from Jeremy Corbyn -
:51:38. > :51:41.criticism to that led to it being crass or utterly exported live. Can
:51:42. > :51:46.you defend it? It is a point that has been made by David Cameron,
:51:47. > :51:51.David Davies, Boris Johnson. I think we have seen Boris Johnson's recent
:51:52. > :51:54.comments that were very similar. Let's not get away from the fact
:51:55. > :52:00.that this is no bigger bleak evil act committed by an individual and
:52:01. > :52:04.possibly his associates. What has been happen is drawing out the
:52:05. > :52:08.context of that evil act. It doesn't in any way change the evil of the
:52:09. > :52:14.act, but it is drying out the contacts. But given that many others
:52:15. > :52:22.have actually made the same link, I think drawing out the context is...
:52:23. > :52:30.Many people have said our foreign policy has said... Yes, they did.
:52:31. > :52:37.The question Jeremy Corbyn needs to answer is, if it is about our
:52:38. > :52:43.foreign policy, why to countries like Sweden, who have a completely
:52:44. > :52:48.different policy, have suffered many more attacks? People These don't
:52:49. > :52:54.hate what we do, they hate what we are. We need to deal with it on that
:52:55. > :52:58.basis. Jeremy Corbyn, on the basis of Prevent, has voted against every
:52:59. > :53:02.single piece of counterterrorism legislation over the past 25 years.
:53:03. > :53:10.And at the thought of him coming in now... How do you think Jeremy
:53:11. > :53:18.Corbyn's voting recommends people feel? People understand Jeremy's
:53:19. > :53:24.position on these issues. We are committed as a party to the policies
:53:25. > :53:33.we are committed to. Let me bring John in, because you can't truly
:53:34. > :53:38.deny that senior pulses senior politicians like David Cameron have
:53:39. > :53:42.all made this comparison. The main issue is the timing of when this was
:53:43. > :53:48.set. It was completely inappropriate. And just gives people
:53:49. > :53:53.who want to find an excuse and excuse for a terrorist atrocity.
:53:54. > :54:01.Timing aside, is it correct? Do we need to look at foreign policy?
:54:02. > :54:04.Regardless of whether we made right wrong decisions as far as foreign
:54:05. > :54:13.policy is concerned, that is no excuse, ever, for any terrorist
:54:14. > :54:16.atrocity. That is an absolute given. And while I suspect that Jeremy
:54:17. > :54:23.Corbyn didn't mean to suggest that it did, the timing of when he said
:54:24. > :54:34.it, I think, get the opportunity to others to make that allegation. It's
:54:35. > :54:36.point straight after a terrible point straight after a terrible
:54:37. > :54:45.event that people are going to try and look at the context. If we look
:54:46. > :54:54.at carbon's track record of explicit support for the IRA. When there was
:54:55. > :55:00.a beheading... That was my constituent. Jeremy Corbyn said when
:55:01. > :55:05.you want to make these you have to talk to people you disagree with.
:55:06. > :55:09.Dimmer on what subject are wriggling to negotiate with Isis? Are we going
:55:10. > :55:18.to say we are going to stone homosexuals more slowly? What...?
:55:19. > :55:27.But 22 people died in this atrocity, so the policy is not working as
:55:28. > :55:32.current. I agree that if Prevent hasn't got the endorsement of the
:55:33. > :55:36.vast majority of moderate and decent Muslims, it will fail, I absolutely
:55:37. > :55:44.agree. But that isn't to say we should just get rid of it. You
:55:45. > :55:48.constituent who was on a mercy constituent who was on a mercy
:55:49. > :55:55.mission to Syria, that was a totally different thing. And our communities
:55:56. > :56:01.all came together, as occurs in this week, and we managed to deal with
:56:02. > :56:02.that in a united way. I seek immunity is every work together,
:56:03. > :56:03.it's great to see. Election campaigning at a local
:56:04. > :56:06.level is also back under way. Our Cheshire reporter Phil McCann
:56:07. > :56:09.spent a day in the Conservative On the hottest day of the year
:56:10. > :56:14.so far in west Kirby, terrorism wasn't much
:56:15. > :56:16.on people's minds. Just had a little walk on the lake,
:56:17. > :56:20.got me feet soaked. How does it feel, living
:56:21. > :56:29.amongst all of this? It's the same beat that
:56:30. > :56:36.Jeremy Corbyn visited last weekend, a celebratory mood here
:56:37. > :56:39.and at nearby Prenton Park. But after voters here have taken
:56:40. > :56:46.in the events at Manchester Arena, They should be different,
:56:47. > :56:52.but I did think they will. It's just what politics
:56:53. > :56:57.is like, isn't it? A lot of the things what they'll
:56:58. > :57:00.bring up in the election will be to do with terrorism,
:57:01. > :57:03.etc, but people will start thinking It presents a dilemma for
:57:04. > :57:07.the candidates here in the marginal I would hope that things will be
:57:08. > :57:12.slightly toned down. And there'll be a bit
:57:13. > :57:18.more sensitivity. One thing we can do to make sure
:57:19. > :57:23.that we show that democracy hasn't been disrupted by events is to run
:57:24. > :57:28.a civilised contest. The Conservatives lost
:57:29. > :57:31.to Labour by just 400 votes The party's getting 90%
:57:32. > :57:37.of the vote between them. And for both, the events
:57:38. > :57:42.of last week will change We want to still make sure that
:57:43. > :57:46.people are still aware that there is lots of important
:57:47. > :57:48.issues to be addressed. Not least security, and what we need
:57:49. > :57:51.is a Government that can actually to keep the country safe,
:57:52. > :57:53.keep our region safe. I think that it's important
:57:54. > :57:56.that we look at how I think that's very important,
:57:57. > :57:59.and I don't think there's People are aware that we do need
:58:00. > :58:03.to take action to make So, as the campaign
:58:04. > :58:06.picks up speed and heads towards the final straight,
:58:07. > :58:21.it's not quite politics as normal. David, some of the polls this week
:58:22. > :58:26.have closed the gap down to about 5%, suggesting that the U-turn on
:58:27. > :58:34.the dementia tax is still in people's consciences, despite the
:58:35. > :58:38.Prime Minister trying to put a case across on Monday? The polls have
:58:39. > :58:42.narrowed very significantly, and every indication now is that this is
:58:43. > :58:49.going to be a very close election, rather like the last one. There's a
:58:50. > :58:57.choice to be made in ten day's time on who we want our Prime Minister to
:58:58. > :59:01.be. George Osborne has said the social care policy clearly wasn't
:59:02. > :59:05.thought through, we know it wasn't, because the Prime Minister had to
:59:06. > :59:09.rethink it the next day. Is he right? And don't think he was
:59:10. > :59:16.completely right, no. The one part of that policy I do agree with is a
:59:17. > :59:22.change to the amount you can keep, at the marmot it's 23,000, as far as
:59:23. > :59:30.I am aware that remains Labour and Liberal Democrat policy. 100,000 is
:59:31. > :59:36.what we said in terms of the chains that we're making, and that's
:59:37. > :59:42.significantly more generous. Between us we're going to do but a great
:59:43. > :59:48.deal more money into social care. The interesting fact, using its
:59:49. > :59:53.moral generous, you have cut back on the position you are in. The real
:59:54. > :59:56.worry is introducing people losing the value of their homes to pay for
:59:57. > :00:01.that care. I have to say, that has gone down very badly with my
:00:02. > :00:07.constituents. They are very worried. Because now if you go into a care
:00:08. > :00:11.home... Should we have to pave through our estates, should we be
:00:12. > :00:19.sharing that money? People should not be losing their homes. They
:00:20. > :00:21.won't be, though. Effectively, they are losing their homes, they are
:00:22. > :00:29.losing their homes for their children. We have to accept it has
:00:30. > :00:35.been an absolute shambles, and know winner seriously thinks that Jeremy
:00:36. > :00:40.Corbyn's going to be Prime Minister. I'm sure Labour supporters would
:00:41. > :00:43.dispute that! When people think there is any prospect of Jeremy
:00:44. > :00:47.Corbyn being Prime Minister there will be a big swing away from the
:00:48. > :00:53.Labour. Because while Jeremy Corbyn attracts a certain type of voter...
:00:54. > :00:56.We were talking about dementia tax, and that is one of the things really
:00:57. > :01:03.worrying people. Other things that worry people are children losing a
:01:04. > :01:06.free school meals. When it gets to the point where it's neck and neck,
:01:07. > :01:17.will people think, actually, we don't trust him the? We've had
:01:18. > :01:22.alarmism about people losing their homes. Under the last Labour
:01:23. > :01:26.Government thousands of people had to sell their houses as a
:01:27. > :01:29.consequence being in long-term care. Under this proposal, nobody would
:01:30. > :01:34.have had to sell their home while they are alive. That is a big
:01:35. > :01:41.difference. 45,000 be bad to sell the house... You're not being
:01:42. > :01:45.realistic... A think the alarmist nonsense we have heard is one of the
:01:46. > :01:55.reasons why people don't trust Labour on the sorts of things. We
:01:56. > :02:00.will know and two weeks. That's it from us Manchester city centre, a
:02:01. > :02:01.gloomy sky, but never a gloomy spirits. Thousands
:02:02. > :02:04.re-elected. Is the only choice for strong and stable leadership.
:02:05. > :02:19.Now, after the Manchester attack, will the final week of election
:02:20. > :02:26.campaigning different in tone from what came before? My panel are here.
:02:27. > :02:29.Tim Marshall, it will be very front of Centre for the next few days. Is
:02:30. > :02:35.that a good thing for the election if it is going to be framed to who
:02:36. > :02:40.do you feel more safe with? It is inevitable but I think it will only
:02:41. > :02:44.be part of the election. As I said before the opt out, for many voters
:02:45. > :02:51.this is also about economics, unemployment. It is not all about
:02:52. > :02:57.Brexit, nor is it only about security. What it will do, I hope,
:02:58. > :03:00.is get the tone of the debate right. Although I have already seen the
:03:01. > :03:06.tone being lowered. I wasn't impressed with Mr Corbyn's speech
:03:07. > :03:10.last week blaming it on a foreign policy, which is a wafer thin
:03:11. > :03:15.analysis of what is going on. Inappropriate timing too soon? No, I
:03:16. > :03:24.think the argument is utter nonsense. I don't want to attack
:03:25. > :03:27.just one side. The Conservative party, I've forgotten which minister
:03:28. > :03:32.has already said that we would be safer under a Tory Prime Minister,
:03:33. > :03:40.it has got nothing to do with Labour or Tory government, the next Islamic
:03:41. > :03:47.attack. It is to do with jihadist ideology, not party policies. You
:03:48. > :03:51.raise an important issue about tone. It also points to a broader
:03:52. > :03:55.argument, one we were having earlier, has politics been two
:03:56. > :04:00.courses with this issue of extremism? Has the conversation
:04:01. > :04:06.about it tiptoed around some of the sensitive issues? And by the media.
:04:07. > :04:14.You highlight the problem of this being part of the election campaign
:04:15. > :04:18.by saying, has politics been too cautious? Who do you mean by
:04:19. > :04:22.politics? And in an election campaign there is a duty to be a
:04:23. > :04:29.divide, and adamant about values, policies etc. Security is an issue
:04:30. > :04:34.that transcends those political divides. So I think it is deeply
:04:35. > :04:41.unhealthy. It is nobody's fault a tragedy occurred. But if you ask me
:04:42. > :04:48.does it help or enhance an election debate? Emphatically not. A tragic
:04:49. > :04:54.event brings politics, as you call it, together. Security is an issue
:04:55. > :05:01.that is complex and doesn't divide neatly. Elections are political
:05:02. > :05:06.battles, by definition. So I think the coming together of this, a
:05:07. > :05:13.tragedy occurred anyway, but it is an unfortunate context. Do you agree
:05:14. > :05:17.or do you think this is a time to talk about these issues? Is it a
:05:18. > :05:23.time to review the level of argument? This is a political
:05:24. > :05:26.debate. I personally think the politicians should have been out and
:05:27. > :05:32.about on Wednesday. There is no wrong time to get it right. We
:05:33. > :05:40.mustn't let the terrorists affect our way of life. But they have when
:05:41. > :05:43.we disrupt the election campaign. It may be party political. But for a
:05:44. > :05:49.lot of voters, including me, I want to hear from party leaders. What do
:05:50. > :05:54.you plan to do about this? Right now, I've not heard anything that
:05:55. > :05:58.suggests any of these parties have got to grips with the real problem,
:05:59. > :06:02.which is that we are not actually tackling the problem in our midst.
:06:03. > :06:06.Douglas Murray touched on it earlier. We have not even come to
:06:07. > :06:14.grips with the scale of the problem. Does Labour have a grip -- Power
:06:15. > :06:20.Point in terms of terrorist legislation? It is complicated. And
:06:21. > :06:25.not all of it has worked or is used enough by government? It is another
:06:26. > :06:30.example where this doesn't work in an election debate because David
:06:31. > :06:34.Davis has opposed a lot of this terrorism legislation. He is now
:06:35. > :06:40.heading Brexit. There is a civil liberties argument which I
:06:41. > :06:46.personally have doubts about. Again, it brings people together from the
:06:47. > :06:50.major parties. And Corbyn didn't actually say it was the cause of
:06:51. > :06:54.terrorism, British foreign policy, but it helped to facilitate
:06:55. > :06:58.terrorism, which is a different argument. Again, that would be
:06:59. > :07:02.supported by some Tories as well. That is why it is difficult in an
:07:03. > :07:06.election campaign for this issue to dominate. The front page of the
:07:07. > :07:10.Sunday Times talks about a campaign relaunch, which may not, grow as a
:07:11. > :07:17.great surprise following the social care fiasco. Do we know what that
:07:18. > :07:22.will entail? It sounds like Boris Johnson will play a role. The whole
:07:23. > :07:26.point is it was all about Theresa May and it turns out that is not
:07:27. > :07:30.quite good enough. The more we have seen of Theresa May, the less
:07:31. > :07:34.impressive she has looked. Certainly the Andrew Neil interview just
:07:35. > :07:39.repeating the same thing again and again. Voters don't like that. They
:07:40. > :07:43.like people who are honest and actually engage with them. When we
:07:44. > :07:46.see beat interviews in the next few days, I think it will be interesting
:07:47. > :07:51.to see if she changes tack and tries to engage with what people are
:07:52. > :07:58.asking. If it is back to leadership and Brexit, and the economy, will
:07:59. > :08:08.that be more comfortable ground? I think so. I understand framing it in
:08:09. > :08:12.terms of Brexit. But she has got to broaden it out. I think that is why
:08:13. > :08:19.she is broadening it out. I don't think the tragic events will
:08:20. > :08:23.absolutely dominate. That would be a small victory for terrorism. This is
:08:24. > :08:29.a country of 65 million people with an awful lot of issues. We have 65
:08:30. > :08:36.million votes, well, 65 million people with opinions in two weeks.
:08:37. > :08:40.It is quite a long campaign. There is still time to go. What do you
:08:41. > :08:45.think Labour will be focusing on from now on? I would imagine they
:08:46. > :08:51.will look very closely at where they are well ahead in the opinion polls
:08:52. > :08:56.and focus on that relentlessly. Public services, NHS etc. And try to
:08:57. > :09:02.get it off as soon as possible from security and fees is used which, on
:09:03. > :09:05.one level at least, appear to be a gift to the Conservatives. I assume
:09:06. > :09:09.that is what they are going to do. But this is a very unpredictable
:09:10. > :09:14.campaign where nothing has gone according to plan. Let's look ahead.
:09:15. > :09:21.On Wednesday evening we have got an election debate. It is in Cambridge.
:09:22. > :09:25.Leaders of some of the parties. Amber Rudd will be representing the
:09:26. > :09:30.Conservatives. We don't know yet who will represent Labour. Today we have
:09:31. > :09:35.had Amber Road and Diane Abbott against each other on Andrew Marr.
:09:36. > :09:39.Let's have a look. I think there is something to be said for a Home
:09:40. > :09:43.Secretary who has actually worked in the Home Office. I work in the home
:09:44. > :09:48.office for nearly three years as a graduate trainee. This government
:09:49. > :09:52.has always felt that urgency. That is why we have been putting in
:09:53. > :09:55.additional money. It is significant that the commission for extremism in
:09:56. > :10:01.the manifesto was put in before Manchester. We need to do more. You
:10:02. > :10:06.voted against prescribing those groups. Because there were groups on
:10:07. > :10:11.that list I deemed to be dissidents rather than terrorist organisations.
:10:12. > :10:13.We are making good progress with the companies who put in place
:10:14. > :10:20.encryption. We will continue to build on that. It was 34 years ago.
:10:21. > :10:24.I had a rather splendid Afro at the time. I don't have the same
:10:25. > :10:30.hairstyle. And I don't have the same views. It is 34 years on. The
:10:31. > :10:35.hairstyle has gone. Some of the views have gone. So you no longer,
:10:36. > :10:42.you regret what you said about the IRA? The hairstyle has gone, the
:10:43. > :10:45.views have gone. I would say to Diane Abbott that I have changed my
:10:46. > :10:52.hairstyle are few times in 34 years but I have not changed my view of
:10:53. > :10:56.how we keep the British public safe. Let's get away from hairstyle sides
:10:57. > :11:01.talk about the prospect of the two of them taking part in the election
:11:02. > :11:07.debate. Would you like to see that? On one level I would like to see it
:11:08. > :11:10.and another the level I would like to see an intelligent debate. I'm
:11:11. > :11:16.glad I never had an Afro or supported the IRA. Whenever Diane
:11:17. > :11:22.Abbott steps out in a TV studio or a radio studio, Labour haemorrhage
:11:23. > :11:27.votes. She cannot say things like my regret supporting this or that
:11:28. > :11:33.legislation. She is an absolute disaster. If Labour put her up, they
:11:34. > :11:44.are beyond mad. Who do you think Labour should put up? By the way, I
:11:45. > :11:49.did have an Afro! I based my whole log on Kevin Keegan and it was good.
:11:50. > :12:02.That is the wrong question. I will explain why. The Labour campaign, it
:12:03. > :12:07.seems to me there were only five or six people put up. That is the fault
:12:08. > :12:10.of others who refused to take part. It also shows the degree to which
:12:11. > :12:14.the current leadership can only rely on five or six people. I would
:12:15. > :12:19.imagine we are talking about a pool of five or six people. As for my
:12:20. > :12:22.judgment as to who the best public performer is in that pool, it would
:12:23. > :12:29.be by some margin John McDonnell, who is a very good interviewee and
:12:30. > :12:37.performer. I think he is a very good performer. It would come back to the
:12:38. > :12:44.economy at some point, presumably. But then it comes back to the IRA. I
:12:45. > :12:47.don't think the debate will be very illuminating. I think if Amber Rudd
:12:48. > :12:52.is there, Diane Abbott should be there. I think the leaders should be
:12:53. > :12:57.debating. Some people say it is froth. I think the leader -- the
:12:58. > :13:01.electorate gets a sense of the leaders. On haircuts, I would like
:13:02. > :13:05.to thank both of them are talking about the haircuts. I am looking
:13:06. > :13:11.forward to tomorrow's papers and the theme that will run through the
:13:12. > :13:18.week. Let's not finish on the hair. Thank you very much for being our
:13:19. > :13:22.guests. That is it for today. Thank the panel for Jonny May. Andrew Neil
:13:23. > :13:29.will be back next weekend. And I will be back on BBC Two on Tuesday.
:13:30. > :13:34.That is at midday with more daily politics. In the meantime, have a
:13:35. > :13:41.very lovely bank holiday. From all of us here, bye-bye.