05/11/2017

0:00:00 > 0:00:01A special Panorama investigation.

0:00:40 > 0:00:42Good morning, everyone,

0:00:42 > 0:00:47I'm Sarah Smith. that's happening in the world

0:00:47 > 0:00:50of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:50 > 0:00:53Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:53 > 0:01:00police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:01:00 > 0:01:03He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:01:03 > 0:01:05With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:05 > 0:01:08can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:08 > 0:01:10to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:10 > 0:01:14the entire political class?

0:01:14 > 0:01:20We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:20 > 0:01:24And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:24 > 0:01:26And a former minister tells me the north is being

0:01:26 > 0:01:27misled on transport.

0:01:27 > 0:01:30Plus, sold short - the Muslim women who say their voices

0:01:30 > 0:01:32aren't being heard.

0:01:33 > 0:01:38fire could prove the greatest challenge yet.

0:01:46 > 0:01:47So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:47 > 0:01:50to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:50 > 0:01:52and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:52 > 0:01:54a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:54 > 0:01:55gunpowder and treason.

0:01:55 > 0:01:58It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:58 > 0:02:01So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:01 > 0:02:09Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:09 > 0:02:12in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:12 > 0:02:13left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:13 > 0:02:15First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:15 > 0:02:17investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:17 > 0:02:20of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:20 > 0:02:22police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:22 > 0:02:24office in 2008.

0:02:24 > 0:02:26Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:26 > 0:02:28police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:28 > 0:02:36and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:36 > 0:02:39Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:39 > 0:02:41over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:41 > 0:02:47he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:47 > 0:02:49Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:49 > 0:02:56misconduct allegations.

0:02:56 > 0:02:58This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:58 > 0:03:01on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:03:01 > 0:03:09Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:09 > 0:03:11And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:11 > 0:03:14with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:14 > 0:03:16of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:16 > 0:03:18Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:18 > 0:03:21she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:21 > 0:03:23against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:23 > 0:03:30Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:30 > 0:03:35terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:35 > 0:03:37that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:37 > 0:03:46better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:46 > 0:03:48respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:48 > 0:03:55can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:55 > 0:03:59Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:59 > 0:04:06morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:06 > 0:04:09issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:09 > 0:04:14is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:14 > 0:04:17makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:17 > 0:04:20Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:20 > 0:04:24actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:24 > 0:04:26deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:26 > 0:04:38terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:38 > 0:04:42that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:42 > 0:04:48bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:48 > 0:04:51political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:51 > 0:04:54allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:54 > 0:05:00being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:05:00 > 0:05:03were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:03 > 0:05:08the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:08 > 0:05:12strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:12 > 0:05:16clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:16 > 0:05:20beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:20 > 0:05:24whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:24 > 0:05:28relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:28 > 0:05:34rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:34 > 0:05:37of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:37 > 0:05:43moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:43 > 0:05:46bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:46 > 0:05:50do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:50 > 0:05:54not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:54 > 0:06:00computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:06:00 > 0:06:04would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:04 > 0:06:16be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:16 > 0:06:21Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:21 > 0:06:27It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:27 > 0:06:30without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:30 > 0:06:35scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:35 > 0:06:39Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:39 > 0:06:47suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:47 > 0:06:50may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:50 > 0:06:53alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:53 > 0:06:57in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:57 > 0:07:00meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:07:00 > 0:07:03there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:03 > 0:07:07Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:07 > 0:07:11and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:11 > 0:07:14every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:14 > 0:07:18her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:18 > 0:07:23she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:23 > 0:07:26support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:26 > 0:07:29Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:29 > 0:07:33inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:33 > 0:07:39the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:39 > 0:07:41the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:41 > 0:07:4510,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:45 > 0:07:49work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:49 > 0:07:51regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:51 > 0:08:01House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:01 > 0:08:04actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:04 > 0:08:08point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:08 > 0:08:11the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:11 > 0:08:17it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:17 > 0:08:20sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:20 > 0:08:24interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:24 > 0:08:29between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:29 > 0:08:34chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:34 > 0:08:39at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:39 > 0:08:44the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:44 > 0:08:49Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:49 > 0:08:50they might be regulated.

0:08:50 > 0:08:53Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:53 > 0:08:55about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:55 > 0:08:58to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:58 > 0:08:59counterparts this week.

0:08:59 > 0:09:02We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:02 > 0:09:04she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:04 > 0:09:07Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:07 > 0:09:10talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:10 > 0:09:14but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:14 > 0:09:17Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:17 > 0:09:20morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:20 > 0:09:27should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:27 > 0:09:33has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:33 > 0:09:38is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:38 > 0:09:40ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:40 > 0:09:45properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:45 > 0:09:49that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:49 > 0:09:55investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:55 > 0:10:00and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:10:00 > 0:10:04important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:04 > 0:10:07test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:07 > 0:10:11swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:11 > 0:10:15exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:15 > 0:10:19things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:19 > 0:10:23range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:23 > 0:10:27Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:27 > 0:10:33environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:33 > 0:10:35or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:35 > 0:10:39knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:39 > 0:10:42transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:42 > 0:10:46bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:46 > 0:10:52Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:52 > 0:10:57the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:57 > 0:11:05can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:05 > 0:11:08House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:08 > 0:11:14well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:14 > 0:11:18thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:18 > 0:11:24that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:24 > 0:11:28Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:28 > 0:11:32year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:32 > 0:11:36of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:36 > 0:11:40it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:40 > 0:11:46experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:46 > 0:11:49yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:49 > 0:11:53certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:53 > 0:11:58as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:58 > 0:12:04about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:04 > 0:12:07authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:07 > 0:12:16people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:16 > 0:12:19misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:19 > 0:12:23brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:23 > 0:12:28in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:28 > 0:12:31didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:31 > 0:12:37hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:37 > 0:12:41flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:41 > 0:12:48of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:48 > 0:12:51the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:51 > 0:12:55urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:55 > 0:12:59have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:12:59 > 0:13:03do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:03 > 0:13:06clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:06 > 0:13:12right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:12 > 0:13:17and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:17 > 0:13:21perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:21 > 0:13:25sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:25 > 0:13:30companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:30 > 0:13:35use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:35 > 0:13:39find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:39 > 0:13:42of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:42 > 0:13:50politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:50 > 0:13:52companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:52 > 0:13:56this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:56 > 0:14:01with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:14:01 > 0:14:06step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:06 > 0:14:11are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:11 > 0:14:15It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:15 > 0:14:19terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:19 > 0:14:22and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:22 > 0:14:28make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:28 > 0:14:33the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:33 > 0:14:36children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:36 > 0:14:43of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:43 > 0:14:46the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:46 > 0:14:49undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:49 > 0:14:52justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:52 > 0:14:56support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:56 > 0:15:00prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:15:00 > 0:15:04need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:04 > 0:15:07us today.

0:15:07 > 0:15:08Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:08 > 0:15:13saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:13 > 0:15:16of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:16 > 0:15:18And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:18 > 0:15:20when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:20 > 0:15:22newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:22 > 0:15:27Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:27 > 0:15:29It's an immense privilege to have been appointed Secretary

0:15:29 > 0:15:31of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:31 > 0:15:34is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:34 > 0:15:36making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:36 > 0:15:39of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:39 > 0:15:41greatest armed services, and it's such a privilege to be able

0:15:41 > 0:15:48to work with them.

0:15:48 > 0:15:50Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:50 > 0:15:53at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:53 > 0:15:54The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:54 > 0:15:56in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:56 > 0:15:58is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:15:58 > 0:16:00over the next ten years.

0:16:00 > 0:16:02The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:02 > 0:16:05which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:05 > 0:16:06while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:06 > 0:16:11of manpower and equipment.

0:16:11 > 0:16:13And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:13 > 0:16:16what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:16 > 0:16:18and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:18 > 0:16:19like Trident and Nato.

0:16:19 > 0:16:21Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:21 > 0:16:24secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:24 > 0:16:26Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:26 > 0:16:31secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:31 > 0:16:36Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:36 > 0:16:40same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:40 > 0:16:44spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:44 > 0:16:49and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:49 > 0:16:56of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:56 > 0:16:58Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:16:58 > 0:17:02really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:02 > 0:17:06spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:06 > 0:17:11Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:11 > 0:17:15cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:15 > 0:17:19more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:19 > 0:17:24In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:24 > 0:17:27McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:27 > 0:17:33using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:33 > 0:17:38Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:38 > 0:17:43it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:43 > 0:17:48whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:48 > 0:17:51they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:51 > 0:17:56pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:56 > 0:18:00on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:18:00 > 0:18:02Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:02 > 0:18:07Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:07 > 0:18:12about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:12 > 0:18:17last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:17 > 0:18:22very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:22 > 0:18:27and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:27 > 0:18:31commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:31 > 0:18:37In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:37 > 0:18:41extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:41 > 0:18:44calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:44 > 0:18:49are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:49 > 0:18:54kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:54 > 0:18:58are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:58 > 0:19:03a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:03 > 0:19:09spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:09 > 0:19:13way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:13 > 0:19:17pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:17 > 0:19:22about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:22 > 0:19:25current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:25 > 0:19:30overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:30 > 0:19:36at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:36 > 0:19:41they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:41 > 0:19:48£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:48 > 0:19:52it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:52 > 0:19:58rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:58 > 0:20:02make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:02 > 0:20:05been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:05 > 0:20:12on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:12 > 0:20:15weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:15 > 0:20:21already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:21 > 0:20:24The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:24 > 0:20:29there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:29 > 0:20:34treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:34 > 0:20:41incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:41 > 0:20:46to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:46 > 0:20:49missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:49 > 0:20:54nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:54 > 0:20:58that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:58 > 0:21:02somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:02 > 0:21:07world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:07 > 0:21:11proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:11 > 0:21:16who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:16 > 0:21:22have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:22 > 0:21:27disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:27 > 0:21:30else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:30 > 0:21:35have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:35 > 0:21:41will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:41 > 0:21:46need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:46 > 0:21:49multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:49 > 0:21:52eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:52 > 0:21:56to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:56 > 0:21:59I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:21:59 > 0:22:04aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:04 > 0:22:10from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:10 > 0:22:14understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:14 > 0:22:18Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:18 > 0:22:23use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:23 > 0:22:27disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:27 > 0:22:31Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:31 > 0:22:34know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:34 > 0:22:41it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:41 > 0:22:46changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:46 > 0:22:50Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:50 > 0:22:55is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:55 > 0:22:58Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:58 > 0:23:01in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:01 > 0:23:05position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:05 > 0:23:09that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:09 > 0:23:14stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:14 > 0:23:19sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:19 > 0:23:23Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:23 > 0:23:26your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:26 > 0:23:30whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:30 > 0:23:34Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:34 > 0:23:37why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:37 > 0:23:42important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:42 > 0:23:47happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:47 > 0:23:51position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:51 > 0:23:58has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:58 > 0:24:03has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:03 > 0:24:06the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:06 > 0:24:10have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:10 > 0:24:16did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:16 > 0:24:21speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:21 > 0:24:25information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:25 > 0:24:29who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:29 > 0:24:33be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:33 > 0:24:37this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:37 > 0:24:42with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:42 > 0:24:45prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:45 > 0:24:50it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:50 > 0:24:54treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:54 > 0:24:59they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:24:59 > 0:25:04making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:04 > 0:25:08was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:08 > 0:25:15it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:15 > 0:25:21Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:21 > 0:25:25of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:25 > 0:25:31ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:31 > 0:25:33independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:33 > 0:25:37nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:37 > 0:25:42friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:42 > 0:25:47and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:47 > 0:25:51friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:51 > 0:25:56can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:56 > 0:25:59important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:25:59 > 0:26:03happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:03 > 0:26:09party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:09 > 0:26:09to us

0:26:09 > 0:26:11For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:11 > 0:26:13on the left of politics,

0:26:13 > 0:26:15this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:15 > 0:26:17to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:17 > 0:26:19plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:19 > 0:26:22ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:22 > 0:26:24and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:24 > 0:26:25For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:25 > 0:26:27Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:32 > 0:26:34The 7th November 1917.

0:26:34 > 0:26:38Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:38 > 0:26:43Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:43 > 0:26:45This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:45 > 0:26:48because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:48 > 0:26:51was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:51 > 0:26:55The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:55 > 0:27:00The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:27:00 > 0:27:02of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:02 > 0:27:06Then war.

0:27:06 > 0:27:11Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:11 > 0:27:16The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:16 > 0:27:22The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:22 > 0:27:25October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:25 > 0:27:29asserting their authority.

0:27:31 > 0:27:34A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:34 > 0:27:37there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:37 > 0:27:41celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:41 > 0:27:43Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:43 > 0:27:46this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:46 > 0:27:50the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:50 > 0:27:51the discourse of history.

0:27:51 > 0:27:54It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:54 > 0:27:57Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:57 > 0:27:59I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:27:59 > 0:28:02Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:02 > 0:28:05was chairing the opening session.

0:28:05 > 0:28:08He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:08 > 0:28:14to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:14 > 0:28:17TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:17 > 0:28:19which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:19 > 0:28:22and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:22 > 0:28:25A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:25 > 0:28:28We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:28 > 0:28:30There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:30 > 0:28:32from the Cold War period.

0:28:32 > 0:28:34It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:34 > 0:28:36But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:36 > 0:28:39The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:39 > 0:28:42of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:42 > 0:28:45and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:45 > 0:28:49But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:49 > 0:28:52the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:52 > 0:28:55We wanted to have this conference

0:28:55 > 0:28:58because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:28:58 > 0:29:02Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:02 > 0:29:06the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:06 > 0:29:09of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:10 > 0:29:14Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:14 > 0:29:17The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:17 > 0:29:21But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:21 > 0:29:25camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:25 > 0:29:29of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:29 > 0:29:33as something to celebrate.

0:29:34 > 0:29:36That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:36 > 0:29:38So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:38 > 0:29:40for celebration, or regret?

0:29:40 > 0:29:42Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:42 > 0:29:48and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:48 > 0:29:52Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:52 > 0:29:57revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:57 > 0:30:01revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:30:01 > 0:30:04truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:04 > 0:30:12wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:12 > 0:30:15back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:15 > 0:30:23elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:23 > 0:30:28his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:28 > 0:30:32Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:32 > 0:30:35former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:35 > 0:30:43true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:43 > 0:30:47the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:47 > 0:30:56Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:56 > 0:31:06suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:06 > 0:31:13Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:13 > 0:31:20And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:20 > 0:31:23Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:23 > 0:31:29years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:29 > 0:31:34in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:34 > 0:31:36cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:36 > 0:31:53Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:53 > 0:31:59was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:31:59 > 0:32:03brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:03 > 0:32:07I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:07 > 0:32:10why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:10 > 0:32:12misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:12 > 0:32:16possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:16 > 0:32:22and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:22 > 0:32:24intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:24 > 0:32:28to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:28 > 0:32:33acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:33 > 0:32:36statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:36 > 0:32:43labour

0:32:43 > 0:32:49camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:49 > 0:32:53Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:53 > 0:32:57never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:57 > 0:33:02celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:02 > 0:33:06events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:06 > 0:33:11decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:11 > 0:33:14is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:14 > 0:33:19earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:19 > 0:33:25that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:25 > 0:33:29China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:29 > 0:33:34people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:34 > 0:33:39system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:39 > 0:33:43despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:43 > 0:33:46mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:46 > 0:33:50which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:50 > 0:33:55Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:55 > 0:33:59complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:59 > 0:34:04about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:04 > 0:34:08events? A popular overthrowing of a government is perhaps different from

0:34:08 > 0:34:13the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:13 > 0:34:17overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:17 > 0:34:22we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:22 > 0:34:31in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:31 > 0:34:38mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:38 > 0:34:40has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:40 > 0:34:46Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:46 > 0:34:49overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:49 > 0:34:56second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:56 > 0:34:59not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:59 > 0:35:05would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:05 > 0:35:11and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:11 > 0:35:15discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:15 > 0:35:22Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:22 > 0:35:27world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:27 > 0:35:32and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:32 > 0:35:35Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:35 > 0:35:41You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:41 > 0:35:47Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:47 > 0:35:54Trotskyist, and now nor the complete folly of that particular political

0:35:54 > 0:35:58disposition.John McDonnell in the Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:58 > 0:36:03Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a problem for the Labour Party?I

0:36:03 > 0:36:06would have thought, arts would be more respected now than he has been

0:36:06 > 0:36:12for quite some time as capitalism is collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:12 > 0:36:182008 the Economist itself, the bible of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:18 > 0:36:23Marxist economics and analysis, so I really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:23 > 0:36:32Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...It is

0:36:32 > 0:36:40not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:40 > 0:36:44Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:44 > 0:36:50them, and thus transforming their position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:50 > 0:36:53need to tell you, was just about the most backward place you could

0:36:53 > 0:37:00possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:37:00 > 0:37:08is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:08 > 0:37:10by China here.I have to put this

0:37:10 > 0:37:12are in danger of getting sidetracked by China here.I have to put this

0:37:12 > 0:37:14are in danger of getting sidetracked point in. If China was backward in

0:37:14 > 0:37:161949 it was far more backward by

0:37:16 > 0:37:18point in. If China was backward in time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:18 > 0:37:20point in. If China was backward in leap forward and starved

0:37:20 > 0:37:22point in. If China was backward in people to death in the period of

0:37:22 > 0:37:27economic lunacy. You just don't notice...What George was saying

0:37:27 > 0:37:29they are, and a sense certainly they are, and a sense certainly

0:37:29 > 0:37:33amongst younger voters in this country and others, where they are

0:37:33 > 0:37:34amongst younger voters in this turning against capitalism, they

0:37:34 > 0:37:37don't think it has worked or delivered for them, that this kind

0:37:37 > 0:37:41of Marxist Leninist philosophy is becoming more popular?Let's hope

0:37:41 > 0:37:44of Marxist Leninist philosophy is not. The fact the current system is

0:37:44 > 0:37:45of Marxist Leninist philosophy is failing does not seem to recommend

0:37:45 > 0:37:50the Soviet system, which is demonstrably a failure, and even its

0:37:50 > 0:37:52own leaders admitted it failed and

0:37:52 > 0:37:54demonstrably a failure, and even its that is why they tried to reform it

0:37:54 > 0:37:57in the period I was there and why it in the period I was there and why it

0:37:57 > 0:37:59collapsed. Whatever you might want to conclude from examining our

0:37:59 > 0:38:02position, the Soviet alternative is not the thing you want the

0:38:02 > 0:38:03position, the Soviet alternative is This was a long period

0:38:03 > 0:38:07position, the Soviet alternative is and I remember at the end of it

0:38:07 > 0:38:08position, the Soviet alternative is watching in Moscow said a film which

0:38:08 > 0:38:15has never been shown here, and the title means approximately we can't

0:38:15 > 0:38:17has never been shown here, and the go on living like this, and for the

0:38:17 > 0:38:20has never been shown here, and the first time, the politburo told the

0:38:20 > 0:38:21truth about what life was

0:38:21 > 0:38:22first time, the politburo told the the dreadful place and everyone in

0:38:22 > 0:38:24first time, the politburo told the that cinema was weeping because

0:38:24 > 0:38:26finally they saw the truth

0:38:26 > 0:38:27that cinema was weeping because told about the dreadful

0:38:27 > 0:38:28that cinema was weeping because anti-civilisation in which they had

0:38:28 > 0:38:31been taught to live for so long. The

0:38:31 > 0:38:32anti-civilisation in which they had idea we should celebrate it revive

0:38:32 > 0:38:37it seems to me to be verging on the obscene.George, one interesting

0:38:37 > 0:38:42question about this of course, whilst there are events going on in

0:38:42 > 0:38:45London and across the UK to mark this centenary, it is not being

0:38:45 > 0:38:47London and across the UK to mark celebrated in Russia.I

0:38:47 > 0:38:48London and across the UK to mark Russia a couple of weeks ago.

0:38:48 > 0:38:50London and across the UK to mark is a big debate about whether it

0:38:50 > 0:38:55ought to be, and many people are celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is

0:38:55 > 0:38:57not. He would want to ignore it.But

0:38:57 > 0:38:58celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is the Communist Party is the second

0:38:58 > 0:39:02biggest party in Russia. And it is

0:39:02 > 0:39:06the Communist Party is the second the ruling party in China, which,

0:39:06 > 0:39:08with respect, is not a separate with respect, is not a separate

0:39:08 > 0:39:09thing, because China is

0:39:09 > 0:39:10with respect, is not a separate the Russian Revolution and doing

0:39:10 > 0:39:16rather better at it than the Russians did, but there are many

0:39:16 > 0:39:17people, particularly older, that is

0:39:17 > 0:39:19Russians did, but there are many true, who think that the era of the

0:39:19 > 0:39:25Soviet Union was better than the very cold period of capitalism that

0:39:25 > 0:39:32succeeded it. So half the world followed for a time the red flag,

0:39:32 > 0:39:40the red banner of Leninism. No one will do so again. Leninism of the

0:39:40 > 0:39:41the red banner of Leninism. No one kind that Peter used to proselytise

0:39:41 > 0:39:47is certainly not coming back, but Marxism is going to live on.Let's

0:39:47 > 0:39:49hope not.Thank you both,

0:39:49 > 0:39:51Marxism is going to live on.Let's for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:51 > 0:39:52It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:52 > 0:39:53You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:53 > 0:39:57Coming up on the programme:

0:39:57 > 0:40:00We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:40:00 > 0:40:02We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:40:02 > 0:40:05It wasn't just Westminster that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:05 > 0:40:06We're asking people in Guildford that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:14 > 0:40:15I'm Nina Warhurst.

0:40:15 > 0:40:16Coming up in the north-west:

0:40:16 > 0:40:18Being sold short - the Muslim women who say

0:40:18 > 0:40:22their voices aren't being heard.

0:40:22 > 0:40:25Women are not out and about here most of the time.

0:40:25 > 0:40:31They don't raise their voices they need anything.

0:40:31 > 0:40:34But, loud and proud in the studio are two women who always

0:40:34 > 0:40:36make sure they're heard.

0:40:36 > 0:40:38Antoinette Sandbach is the Conservative MP for Eddisbury,

0:40:38 > 0:40:40and Julie Ward the Labour MEP for North West England.

0:40:40 > 0:40:42A warm welcome to you both.

0:40:42 > 0:40:44The political story of the week has been sexual

0:40:44 > 0:40:45harassment at Westminster.

0:40:45 > 0:40:52Here was one north-west MP's question to the Prime Minister.

0:40:52 > 0:40:55Three years ago I brought evidence to her in this house that whips had

0:40:55 > 0:41:03used information about sexual abuse to demand loyalty from MPs.

0:41:03 > 0:41:06On three occasions, I asked her to act and on three

0:41:06 > 0:41:12occasions she did not, so can I ask her, in this

0:41:12 > 0:41:15of all weeks, for the fourth time, will she finally take concrete

0:41:15 > 0:41:19action to tackle this?

0:41:19 > 0:41:20Hear, hear.

0:41:20 > 0:41:23Antoinette, isn't the case that not just the Prime Minister but everyone

0:41:23 > 0:41:26at Westminster has been aware of this conduct for very long time

0:41:26 > 0:41:28and nobody has been brave enough to call it out?

0:41:28 > 0:41:31I think you have 650 small employers and the vast majority of MPs

0:41:31 > 0:41:34are really good employers.

0:41:34 > 0:41:36OK.

0:41:36 > 0:41:39But clearly there are problems and I think there needs to be

0:41:39 > 0:41:41an independent body, run by the House of Commons,

0:41:41 > 0:41:44that staff or even MPs can go and report to,

0:41:44 > 0:41:52particularly in the workplace, around workplace allegations.

0:41:52 > 0:41:54I think that's important and it looks like that

0:41:54 > 0:41:56is going to be set up.

0:41:56 > 0:41:58And if Lisa's allegations are true, do you think the Prime Minister

0:41:58 > 0:42:00should have acted sooner?

0:42:00 > 0:42:03I'm not entirely sure which allegations Lisa was talking about.

0:42:03 > 0:42:05I think she may have been talking about the allegations

0:42:05 > 0:42:08that were looked into, which were very historic allegations

0:42:08 > 0:42:12around child sexual issues, but I can't say that I know

0:42:12 > 0:42:18particularly what she is referring to.

0:42:18 > 0:42:21The implication was that whips were using this information to make

0:42:21 > 0:42:24sure that MPs toed the party line, allegations of abuse.

0:42:24 > 0:42:27Well, I mean, I'm not aware of that, but I know

0:42:27 > 0:42:29that we are in a fast-moving situation and stories are emerging

0:42:29 > 0:42:33at the moment across the parties.

0:42:33 > 0:42:35Yeah.

0:42:35 > 0:42:42It's not just an issue on any one particular site, as it were.

0:42:42 > 0:42:45I think we really need to have a safe space

0:42:45 > 0:42:46in the parliament to raise concerns.

0:42:46 > 0:42:49And Esther McVey this week was elevated to the role

0:42:49 > 0:42:50of Deputy Chief Whip.

0:42:50 > 0:42:53Is that a strategic decision?

0:42:53 > 0:42:56Is she the kind of woman that could say, OK, let's make

0:42:56 > 0:42:58a cultural shift here?

0:42:58 > 0:43:00Well, you had Anne Milton as the Deputy Chief Whip before,

0:43:00 > 0:43:03and I know that she worked very hard on this issue.

0:43:03 > 0:43:05I am very glad to see that there is another

0:43:05 > 0:43:07woman Deputy Chief Whip.

0:43:07 > 0:43:09I think it's an example of how the Conservative Party

0:43:09 > 0:43:12promotes people on ability.

0:43:12 > 0:43:14Julie, Britain horrified this week with news of what's been

0:43:14 > 0:43:16going on at Westminster.

0:43:16 > 0:43:17Is it the same in Brussels?

0:43:17 > 0:43:19Do you think it's the same everywhere?

0:43:19 > 0:43:21I do.

0:43:21 > 0:43:26I think this is something that is endemic in society,

0:43:26 > 0:43:27and it's because of unequal power relationships, really,

0:43:28 > 0:43:29between men and women.

0:43:29 > 0:43:32I am a proud feminist, and what I want to see is more women

0:43:32 > 0:43:36visible in the public sphere.

0:43:36 > 0:43:38And I want to see less sexist advertising and objectification

0:43:38 > 0:43:41of women, and I would like to see proper sex and relationship

0:43:41 > 0:43:45education around positive consent.

0:43:45 > 0:43:48Do you think that there should be more processes in place?

0:43:48 > 0:43:50What has been interesting this week, talking to everyone,

0:43:50 > 0:43:52men and women of different generations, is the grey area,

0:43:52 > 0:43:55indeed whether a grey area exists at all.

0:43:55 > 0:43:59How do we put in place processes against that?

0:43:59 > 0:44:03How do we define what it is that constitutes harassment?

0:44:03 > 0:44:05Well, victims need to be believed.

0:44:05 > 0:44:08They need to be listened to and they need to be believed,

0:44:08 > 0:44:11and they need to not be afraid to speak up, and that is why we have

0:44:11 > 0:44:13to have some independent bodies.

0:44:13 > 0:44:15We have called for that in the European Parliament,

0:44:15 > 0:44:19exactly the same as I think is needed in Westminster.

0:44:19 > 0:44:22And I would also like to say that I think the trade unions

0:44:22 > 0:44:24have an important role to play in this as well.

0:44:24 > 0:44:27There's a number of organisations that can actually support this.

0:44:27 > 0:44:30And we could see Parliament leading the way on that.

0:44:30 > 0:44:32OK.

0:44:32 > 0:44:35This week, the first-ever meeting of all the UK's new city mayors

0:44:35 > 0:44:39took place this week - Greater Manchester's Andy Burnham

0:44:39 > 0:44:41and Liverpool's Steve Rotheram both attending the event in London,

0:44:41 > 0:44:44alongside its mayor Sadiq Khan.

0:44:44 > 0:44:47Now, the seven mayors said they could boost Britain's economic

0:44:47 > 0:44:52growth if the Government gave them more powers.

0:44:52 > 0:44:58I'd rather have any decision made more locally than Whitehall

0:44:58 > 0:45:00mandarins who have probably never visited half of the areas

0:45:00 > 0:45:01in our city region.

0:45:01 > 0:45:03Well, it looks like those Whitehall mandarins could still dictate

0:45:03 > 0:45:06transport spending, because it emerged this week that the initial

0:45:06 > 0:45:10bill covering the new authority, Transport For The North,

0:45:10 > 0:45:14suggests it will only have advisory powers,

0:45:14 > 0:45:16whereas as Transport For London oversees a budget of

0:45:16 > 0:45:18£10 billion a year.

0:45:18 > 0:45:21At Westminster, I spoke to Lord O'Neil, the former

0:45:21 > 0:45:22Treasury Minister and one of the architects of

0:45:22 > 0:45:25the Northern Powerhouse, and asked him if the news that came

0:45:25 > 0:45:27as a nasty surprise.

0:45:27 > 0:45:34So if that's where the end place is, not only would it be a surprise,

0:45:34 > 0:45:38but it would extremely irritate me, and I think it would cause me to be

0:45:38 > 0:45:46more mark of a moaning Minnie than I have been in the past.

0:45:46 > 0:45:48I was in Government and persuaded Osborne, the then Chancellor,

0:45:48 > 0:45:51that we need to have something like Transport For The North.

0:45:51 > 0:45:54We talked about it being ultimately the same as Transport For London,

0:45:54 > 0:45:56which is a fantastic thing which has helped drive economic

0:45:56 > 0:46:00benefits for London.

0:46:00 > 0:46:03Why does it matter that Transport For The North has that

0:46:03 > 0:46:09parity of power and power over policy like Transport For London?

0:46:09 > 0:46:12Well, if it doesn't have real powers, then it's going to be

0:46:12 > 0:46:15constantly subject to the whims of what's going on over my

0:46:15 > 0:46:17shoulder in Parliament, and as we know, every other year

0:46:17 > 0:46:24the transport manager changes.

0:46:24 > 0:46:27-- every other year at the transport minister changes.

0:46:27 > 0:46:29Every five years, often less, the Government changes.

0:46:29 > 0:46:32You can't run a transport system for connecting the North of England

0:46:32 > 0:46:35based on the whims of those people that just happen to be

0:46:35 > 0:46:36sitting in those seats.

0:46:36 > 0:46:38And the current transport minister has publicly said,

0:46:38 > 0:46:40I think you have actually interviewed him saying,

0:46:40 > 0:46:43that Transport For The North needs to be owned and led by people

0:46:43 > 0:46:44from the North.

0:46:44 > 0:46:46How can they do that if they are just going

0:46:47 > 0:46:48to be an advisory body?

0:46:48 > 0:46:49It doesn't make sense.

0:46:49 > 0:46:51Well, what would you say to someone who said, actually,

0:46:51 > 0:46:54Transport For The North just hasn't got its act together yet,

0:46:54 > 0:46:56it's not ready and willing to take on that fiscal responsibility

0:46:56 > 0:46:58at the moment?

0:46:58 > 0:47:00I accept the fact that Transport For The North

0:47:00 > 0:47:04is a new entity, and it might not be operationally fully ready

0:47:04 > 0:47:09for being given a lot of money and a lot of powers,

0:47:09 > 0:47:11which in ministers' and more importantly in some officials'

0:47:11 > 0:47:13minds means more money for the national debt.

0:47:13 > 0:47:17It might be a bit early to give them full power,

0:47:17 > 0:47:22but the way this bill looks as though it's designed,

0:47:22 > 0:47:25if the Government wanted, this could be it.

0:47:25 > 0:47:28And so what they need to be clear about, that this

0:47:28 > 0:47:33is an initial staging post until Transport For The North

0:47:33 > 0:47:36is fully capable of operating in the way Transport For London

0:47:36 > 0:47:38is today.

0:47:38 > 0:47:39But the north isn't the same as London.

0:47:39 > 0:47:42It's not one big hub that everybody looks towards.

0:47:42 > 0:47:44With that in mind, perhaps it can never work the same way.

0:47:44 > 0:47:47So that question goes to the core big picture challenge

0:47:47 > 0:47:53for the Northern Powerhouse.

0:47:53 > 0:47:55I more than most, given my role in it, know the sensitivities

0:47:55 > 0:47:58between all of the northern centres, but I often describe it

0:47:58 > 0:47:59as ManSheffLeedsPool.

0:47:59 > 0:48:02We need one single market for labour and consumers in the north,

0:48:02 > 0:48:04otherwise there is no chance of the Northern Powerhouse ever

0:48:04 > 0:48:13working, and that means we need a really effective transport body.

0:48:13 > 0:48:16We keep coming back to transport, don't we, when we talk

0:48:16 > 0:48:19about the Northern Powerhouse?

0:48:19 > 0:48:22Antoinette, is the inferior status of Transport For The North compared

0:48:22 > 0:48:25to Transport For London just another example of us being fobbed off?

0:48:25 > 0:48:26I totally disagree.

0:48:26 > 0:48:27OK.

0:48:27 > 0:48:30Transport For The North is a new body and Transport For London

0:48:30 > 0:48:32has been going for decades, and as was pointed out that this

0:48:32 > 0:48:33is a starting point.

0:48:33 > 0:48:36It's not an end point.

0:48:36 > 0:48:39They have recently been given £60 million by the Government

0:48:39 > 0:48:42to develop the future plans for the north, and I know,

0:48:42 > 0:48:44for example, with the consultations around the Crewe Hub,

0:48:44 > 0:48:47they are looking at Growth Track 360 to look at how we can improve

0:48:47 > 0:48:53transport's links east-west.

0:48:53 > 0:48:54Northern Powerhouse Rail, Transpennine...

0:48:54 > 0:48:56You know, there are some huge, exciting projects

0:48:56 > 0:48:57that are going on...

0:48:57 > 0:48:58That comment, Julie.

0:48:58 > 0:49:01You know, and they have just put 300 million aside

0:49:01 > 0:49:02to future proof HS2 for HS3.

0:49:02 > 0:49:05It's in its infancy, isn't it, Transport For The North?

0:49:05 > 0:49:08Perhaps we should be a bit more patient.

0:49:08 > 0:49:12Well, I represent a huge constituency.

0:49:12 > 0:49:17I am an MEP I represent from Crewe to Carlisle, and I travel

0:49:17 > 0:49:19right across the region, so I can tell you how

0:49:19 > 0:49:21difficult it often is.

0:49:21 > 0:49:25You know, you might get a fast train, a Eurostar and then

0:49:25 > 0:49:27a connection up to Manchester, and then you are on really,

0:49:28 > 0:49:29really slow trains.

0:49:29 > 0:49:30Yes.

0:49:30 > 0:49:31You know, with huge problems.

0:49:31 > 0:49:33I have to say, there is another issue about trains,

0:49:33 > 0:49:36and that's the fact that the guards will be taken off the trains,

0:49:36 > 0:49:39and if we link that back to the previous discussion

0:49:39 > 0:49:40about sexual harassment and safety of women,

0:49:40 > 0:49:42we have got a big issue there.

0:49:42 > 0:49:43We need to have...

0:49:43 > 0:49:44But just sticking with this...

0:49:44 > 0:49:46Antoinette, do you think...?

0:49:46 > 0:49:48Jim O'Neill claimed this week at 40 civil servants are sat

0:49:48 > 0:49:50in London trying to pre-empt what Transport For

0:49:50 > 0:49:52The North are deciding.

0:49:52 > 0:49:55Is it time to bring them up here or bring them under

0:49:55 > 0:49:56Transport For The North?

0:49:56 > 0:50:01Let's not forget this - the Conservative Government that has

0:50:01 > 0:50:04delivered devolution to the mayors here in the north, they have only

0:50:04 > 0:50:06very recently been elected.

0:50:06 > 0:50:10There is a lot of work to do, but I think it is really exciting

0:50:10 > 0:50:13that there is actually going to be a specific body looking

0:50:13 > 0:50:17at transport, concentrating on transport for the North

0:50:17 > 0:50:19and working out how to deliver it.

0:50:19 > 0:50:20That's what we need.

0:50:20 > 0:50:22Good delivery and good planning.

0:50:22 > 0:50:24I have absolutely no doubt we will be back on this

0:50:24 > 0:50:25story every single week.

0:50:25 > 0:50:27Sorry, can I just say quickly...?

0:50:27 > 0:50:30Just in terms of consultation and participation, when the Northern

0:50:30 > 0:50:32franchises were up for renewal, there was no public meeting

0:50:32 > 0:50:36at all in the north-west constituency that I represent.

0:50:36 > 0:50:39There were meetings in Edinburgh and there were meetings in York,

0:50:39 > 0:50:42and there was not a single meeting for the public to come to.

0:50:42 > 0:50:44So you would like to see more transparency...

0:50:44 > 0:50:45Did you ask for one?

0:50:45 > 0:50:46I did.

0:50:46 > 0:50:48I made some representations, yeah, in the consultation,

0:50:48 > 0:50:52so I think people are not being listened to here.

0:50:52 > 0:50:55Right, we move now from trains to planes, or the use

0:50:55 > 0:50:57of them to avoid tax.

0:50:57 > 0:50:59Jeremy Corbyn this week called on the Prime Minister to investigate

0:50:59 > 0:51:02the number of people funneling the purchase of private jets

0:51:02 > 0:51:05through the Isle of Man.

0:51:05 > 0:51:11957 business jets in the Isle of Man seems a bit excessive

0:51:11 > 0:51:14for any island anywhere, and I hope it's investigated and due

0:51:14 > 0:51:20tax is collected from those people that are trying to avoid it.

0:51:20 > 0:51:23Julie, the Prime Minister argues that the top 1% of earners

0:51:23 > 0:51:26are paying a greater percentage of tax than they ever have before.

0:51:26 > 0:51:29They now contribute one quarter of income tax.

0:51:29 > 0:51:30Well, good.

0:51:30 > 0:51:32I'm glad, you know?

0:51:32 > 0:51:35Because I got elected to the European parliament...

0:51:35 > 0:51:37Does that not mean the taxation system is working?

0:51:37 > 0:51:40Well, we are not collecting the tax that actually people...that should

0:51:40 > 0:51:43be being collected...

0:51:43 > 0:51:46I know that within HMRC there is not enough people working,

0:51:46 > 0:51:48so austerity measures have meant that we've lost a lot

0:51:48 > 0:51:52of our people working...

0:51:52 > 0:51:55That's completely not true. ..people working in the tax.

0:51:55 > 0:51:57There is something like 34 billion uncollected taxes

0:51:57 > 0:52:03which would have been paid.

0:52:03 > 0:52:04-- should

0:52:04 > 0:52:07And I have to say that I'm very proud that I work

0:52:07 > 0:52:10in the European Parliament, which has a very, very strong view

0:52:10 > 0:52:12about tax avoidance, and in January 2019 there

0:52:12 > 0:52:13was a new tax avoidance directive...

0:52:13 > 0:52:14Antoinette, we've got the...

0:52:14 > 0:52:17..that's going to be coming into the member states and Britain

0:52:17 > 0:52:18should be implementing that.

0:52:18 > 0:52:21Well, we actually lead the way in clamping down on tax avoidance.

0:52:21 > 0:52:24This Government is collecting an extra £160 billion worth of tax

0:52:24 > 0:52:26and we've got the lowest tax gap in the world.

0:52:26 > 0:52:32That's 6.5%.

0:52:32 > 0:52:34We are the country with the lowest tax cap.

0:52:34 > 0:52:37We have closed the most loopholes and we have done that over

0:52:37 > 0:52:40the last seven years, and if we had left the loopholes

0:52:40 > 0:52:45that were there under Labour, we'd be £46 billion worse off.

0:52:45 > 0:52:47So this is something the Government is really committed to.

0:52:47 > 0:52:50We are absolutely working on it and we have also been

0:52:50 > 0:52:53leading the way in terms of tax transparency.

0:52:53 > 0:52:56OK, we're going to have to leave it there.

0:52:56 > 0:52:58The British Government has been blocking in the European Council,

0:52:58 > 0:53:00stopping the good laws that we are making in

0:53:00 > 0:53:03the European Parliament.

0:53:03 > 0:53:05OK, we have to move on.

0:53:05 > 0:53:08It's seven years since the first Muslim women were elected

0:53:08 > 0:53:10to Westminster, including Bolton's own Yasmin Qureshi, but are

0:53:10 > 0:53:17the voices of ordinary Muslim women still going largely unheard?

0:53:17 > 0:53:19One Manchester councillor thinks so and wants to make

0:53:19 > 0:53:23sure they can speak up, as Phil McCann reports.

0:53:23 > 0:53:25Longsight in Manchester - it in a constituency

0:53:25 > 0:53:30where almost one third of the population is Muslim.

0:53:30 > 0:53:32But are half of them ignored?

0:53:32 > 0:53:35We need to do more to engage the women that are either not

0:53:35 > 0:53:38allowed to speak or feel unable to speak, or don't know the avenues

0:53:38 > 0:53:41to, kind of, empower themselves.

0:53:41 > 0:53:45Women are not out and about here most of the time.

0:53:45 > 0:53:48They don't raise their voice if they need anything.

0:53:48 > 0:53:51Do you think that the Government, kind of, has a problem

0:53:51 > 0:53:52with hearing from women?

0:53:52 > 0:53:58Not only Muslims, but anyone, any woman, any woman.

0:53:58 > 0:54:03They are unable to express themselves because of the family

0:54:03 > 0:54:05or a religion, so there is still a bit more to be

0:54:06 > 0:54:07done on both sides.

0:54:07 > 0:54:10Amina is a local councillor who's so concerned she's writing a report

0:54:10 > 0:54:16to find out why the voice of many Muslim women may not be being heard.

0:54:16 > 0:54:19I think it's even more important that we go out and meet them

0:54:19 > 0:54:22in the areas that they are in, in the groups that they are in,

0:54:22 > 0:54:25and in the houses they are in.

0:54:25 > 0:54:27And marching in Manchester this week was another party

0:54:27 > 0:54:29which has taken up the cause.

0:54:29 > 0:54:32We do need to talk about differences in different communities

0:54:32 > 0:54:35where they exist, and women are not well represented, whatever

0:54:35 > 0:54:38community they come from.

0:54:38 > 0:54:40And in some organisations representing Muslims,

0:54:40 > 0:54:43it can be difficult to find women.

0:54:43 > 0:54:45Of the Muslim Council of Britain's seven most senior

0:54:45 > 0:54:48officials last year, for example, only one was a woman.

0:54:48 > 0:54:51It's meant that some have felt for a long time

0:54:51 > 0:54:55that the voice of women in mosques has been ignored.

0:54:55 > 0:55:00But if the past was male-dominated, the future may be changing.

0:55:00 > 0:55:03But I do think it is incumbent on people in positions of power,

0:55:03 > 0:55:07people, particularly Muslim men within organisations,

0:55:07 > 0:55:12to definitely give Muslim women opportunities within organisations.

0:55:12 > 0:55:15But with eight Muslim women elected this year to the most

0:55:15 > 0:55:18diverse Parliament yet, our representatives are slowly

0:55:18 > 0:55:22becoming more representative.

0:55:22 > 0:55:25Well, we're joined now by Ambar Iqbal, who works

0:55:25 > 0:55:28with the Islamic Society of Britain to engage young Muslims in politics.

0:55:28 > 0:55:29Welcome, Ambar.

0:55:29 > 0:55:32Is there something specific to Muslim communities which means

0:55:32 > 0:55:37women aren't allowed or don't feel empowered to speak out?

0:55:37 > 0:55:40I think this image that Muslim women are quite insubordinate

0:55:40 > 0:55:42and they are quite suppressed and their voice isn't being heard,

0:55:42 > 0:55:45while I am not denying that it's true for specific women,

0:55:45 > 0:55:48there are powerful Muslim voices that are out there.

0:55:48 > 0:55:55I think that there can be more done to empower Muslim women,

0:55:55 > 0:55:58and there are of avenues that you could go down.

0:55:58 > 0:56:01I think the local Government do have a duty to go into the community

0:56:01 > 0:56:08and find these women, encourage them to speak up more.

0:56:08 > 0:56:10As was also being said, community leaders,

0:56:10 > 0:56:13Muslim community leaders, do have the duty to also find

0:56:13 > 0:56:15these women and ask them about their opinions and care

0:56:15 > 0:56:16about their opinion as well.

0:56:16 > 0:56:18How do you do that, though?

0:56:18 > 0:56:21How do you encourage a cultural shift without imposing on family

0:56:21 > 0:56:23life, without telling people how to live?

0:56:23 > 0:56:25I don't think it's telling people how to live.

0:56:25 > 0:56:27It is just encouraging them to speak.

0:56:27 > 0:56:31I mean, we do have Muslim voices, as I've mentioned, in the community.

0:56:31 > 0:56:33I think they have a duty just as much as anyone

0:56:33 > 0:56:35to also find these women.

0:56:35 > 0:56:38I mean, I know my mother used to hold events and she used to hold

0:56:38 > 0:56:41gatherings of women and teach them had how to speak up

0:56:41 > 0:56:44in the community, and that's just as important as local Government

0:56:44 > 0:56:47going in and speaking to these women.

0:56:47 > 0:56:50And I think in the media as well, when issues happen in the Muslim

0:56:50 > 0:56:53community, they do tend to go to the most Muslim-looking

0:56:53 > 0:56:55young man, not young man, older man,

0:56:55 > 0:56:57rather than just going to any ordinary Muslim woman.

0:56:58 > 0:56:59OK.

0:56:59 > 0:57:02So I don't think we are also given the opportunity to speak out,

0:57:02 > 0:57:04which I think is also a major issue.

0:57:04 > 0:57:06OK, a question to you both now.

0:57:06 > 0:57:09Should the two main parties do more to encourage young Muslim women

0:57:09 > 0:57:10to come through into politics?

0:57:10 > 0:57:11We start with you, Julie.

0:57:11 > 0:57:12Is the Labour Party doing it?

0:57:12 > 0:57:16Well, the Labour Women's Network is doing a lot and also Fabian Women

0:57:16 > 0:57:17is doing a lot.

0:57:17 > 0:57:21I host visits to the European Parliament every

0:57:21 > 0:57:24year for Fabian Women.

0:57:24 > 0:57:27And a good 50% of the Labour women who came over recently

0:57:27 > 0:57:29were Muslim women, so...

0:57:29 > 0:57:32And they are strong women and they are very loud women.

0:57:32 > 0:57:33They are very confident women.

0:57:33 > 0:57:37But Gavin Shuker last year on behalf of the Muslim Women's Network UK,

0:57:37 > 0:57:42said there is systematic misogyny within the Labour Party.

0:57:42 > 0:57:45And more than that, he said he was silenced when he tried

0:57:45 > 0:57:46to raise this issue.

0:57:46 > 0:57:51Well, we addressed the issue of sexism earlier in the discussion,

0:57:51 > 0:57:55and I think that we have a problem across society in terms of women's

0:57:55 > 0:57:58representation and the way that women are treated.

0:57:58 > 0:58:02On Manchester City Council, there's eight Muslim

0:58:02 > 0:58:05women on the council, and that's about the right

0:58:05 > 0:58:09representation for the amount of Muslim women living in Manchester.

0:58:09 > 0:58:11Yeah, but that's one small area, isn't it?

0:58:11 > 0:58:12Yeah, I know...

0:58:12 > 0:58:14Well, in Westminster in 2010, we had...

0:58:14 > 0:58:18No, prior to 2010 we had no female Muslim women MPs.

0:58:18 > 0:58:20We now have 17.

0:58:20 > 0:58:24I know that the Conservative Party has Women2Win which is encouraging

0:58:24 > 0:58:26all women to come and join.

0:58:26 > 0:58:29So it's not religiously specific?

0:58:29 > 0:58:33It's not religiously specific, but I have been mentoring a young

0:58:33 > 0:58:35Muslim woman who wants to get involved in politics,

0:58:35 > 0:58:38and I think that's really important.

0:58:38 > 0:58:40And, Ambar, that's a good point, isn't it?

0:58:40 > 0:58:43We've gone from no Muslim MPs up to 15 Muslim female MPs

0:58:43 > 0:58:45in the space of seven years.

0:58:45 > 0:58:49Are you optimistic about quite a rapid shift now in politics?

0:58:49 > 0:58:51Yeah, I am definitely hoping so.

0:58:51 > 0:58:55I mean, I don't think you have to be a Muslim woman in order to know

0:58:55 > 0:58:58what they want to say, as long as they are aware

0:58:58 > 0:59:00that we have a voice and they are listening to our voices

0:59:00 > 0:59:04as well, and much as easily as our voices are going to be given

0:59:04 > 0:59:06across if they are aware of what we are saying.

0:59:06 > 0:59:09So, definitely, I think that's a really good sign that

0:59:09 > 0:59:10change is going to happen.

0:59:10 > 0:59:11OK.

0:59:11 > 0:59:13I recommend the Patchwork Foundation, which particularly

0:59:13 > 0:59:15reaches out to minority communities, to encourage them from across all

0:59:15 > 0:59:16political parties...

0:59:16 > 0:59:22So the Patchwork Foundation is a brilliant way to get involved.

0:59:22 > 0:59:24There is a girl to leader campaign...

0:59:24 > 0:59:28I recently had a young woman from Pendle came out for a European

0:59:28 > 0:59:32project about girls who want to be leaders, so the roots are there.

0:59:32 > 0:59:35OK, so two groups being endorsed there.

0:59:35 > 0:59:36Many thanks.

0:59:36 > 0:59:38And many thanks to you, Ambar, joining us from London.

0:59:39 > 0:59:40Thank you.

0:59:40 > 0:59:41Thank you.

0:59:41 > 0:59:43OK, time now for the rest of the week's news now,

0:59:43 > 0:59:46including more calls for laws to help victims of disasters

0:59:46 > 0:59:47like Hillsborough.

0:59:47 > 0:59:55Here's Judy Hobson with 60 Seconds.

0:59:55 > 0:59:56Intimidated and depressed for decades, the former

0:59:57 > 1:00:01Bishop of Liverpool

1:00:01 > 1:00:03called for a charter for people bereaved in public tragedies

1:00:03 > 1:00:05to prevent others suffering like the Hillsborough families.

1:00:05 > 1:00:07They find the authorities, the institutions, closing ranks

1:00:07 > 1:00:10and putting their own reputation over and above the needs

1:00:10 > 1:00:11of the bereaved.

1:00:11 > 1:00:14The Birkenhead MP Frank Field called for new powers to protect families

1:00:14 > 1:00:15transferring to Universal Credit.

1:00:15 > 1:00:21He wants benefits paid fortnightly rather than monthly.

1:00:21 > 1:00:23Ten anti-fracking campaigners were cleared of obstructing

1:00:23 > 1:00:24the highway after blocking Cuadrilla's shale gas

1:00:24 > 1:00:28site in Lancashire.

1:00:28 > 1:00:31Marketing to Mancunians only - the developer who won't be

1:00:31 > 1:00:34selling these new flats to foreign investors.

1:00:34 > 1:00:37It's really to try and create a community within this

1:00:37 > 1:00:38building in Manchester, which just isn't really happening

1:00:38 > 1:00:43in a lot of developments in the city at the moment.

1:00:43 > 1:00:45And walkies will be restricted in South Ribble -

1:00:45 > 1:00:47the council's banned anyone from taking more than

1:00:47 > 1:00:54three dogs at a time.

1:00:54 > 1:00:56And, Antoinette, just briefly on the Hillsborough report.

1:00:56 > 1:00:59Allison McGovern in Parliament this week saying actually it

1:00:59 > 1:01:00needs to move further.

1:01:00 > 1:01:03It's time to pass the Hillsborough law in full.

1:01:03 > 1:01:04It only came out this week.

1:01:04 > 1:01:07It was a report that was commissioned by Theresa May who has

1:01:07 > 1:01:09been taking action even before it was published.

1:01:09 > 1:01:12For example, by putting a public advocate for families that

1:01:12 > 1:01:14are involved in tragedies like this in place before the report

1:01:14 > 1:01:22was even published.

1:01:22 > 1:01:25So, do you dispute her claim that actually Grenfell could be

1:01:25 > 1:01:29a repetition of what families at Hillsborough have experienced?

1:01:29 > 1:01:31Well, I very much hope it isn't, and I am absolutely certain.

1:01:31 > 1:01:34I mean, it was largley around Grenfell that the public

1:01:34 > 1:01:35advocate was put in place.

1:01:35 > 1:01:36To try and support families...

1:01:36 > 1:01:40And I think that is something that will be taken forward.

1:01:40 > 1:01:43This is a very good piece of work by the Bishop, who has worked hard

1:01:44 > 1:01:45with the Hillsborough families.

1:01:45 > 1:01:47And commissioned by Theresa May, who I am absolutely convinced...

1:01:47 > 1:01:52And does the Prime Minister deserve praise here?

1:01:52 > 1:01:54If you talk to families of Hillsborough victims,

1:01:54 > 1:01:57if you talk to Steve Rotherham, Andy Burnham, who were involved

1:01:57 > 1:01:59in Hillsborough campaigning, they will say that she's worked

1:01:59 > 1:02:02to every last detail to make sure that the families receive justice,

1:02:02 > 1:02:04and actually not passing the Hillsborough law yet.

1:02:04 > 1:02:07She's just being patient and making sure it's being done properly.

1:02:07 > 1:02:09It's just taken far too long.

1:02:09 > 1:02:12I think that for those people do have suffered,

1:02:12 > 1:02:15it has been too long.

1:02:15 > 1:02:18They have waited too long and the suffering is terrible.

1:02:18 > 1:02:21And I think that we also have to look at the way that the media

1:02:21 > 1:02:26reported in fact on the tragedy, they know that the people

1:02:26 > 1:02:28of Liverpool, you know, are particularly upset at the way

1:02:28 > 1:02:30that the Sun newspaper treated them and their families

1:02:30 > 1:02:35and their victims.

1:02:35 > 1:02:38So for me there is not just an issue about justice being done in terms

1:02:38 > 1:02:41of a Hillsborough law, but I think we really have to look

1:02:41 > 1:02:44at the way those victims were vilified through a terrible

1:02:44 > 1:02:51press campaign as well.

1:02:51 > 1:02:52Something for everyone to think about.

1:02:52 > 1:02:54Many thanks to you as well.

1:02:54 > 1:02:55That is it from us.

1:02:55 > 1:02:57My thanks to Antoinette Sandbach and Julie Ward.

1:02:57 > 1:02:59We are off next week and back the week after with

1:03:00 > 1:03:01Cat Smith and Damien Moore.

1:03:01 > 1:03:05Time now to hand you back to Sarah in London.

1:03:07 > 1:03:08So people can choose what projects they want

1:03:08 > 1:03:11All right, and at that point we have to end it there.

1:03:11 > 1:03:13My thanks to Rosena and Andrew, and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:13 > 1:03:16It's been a tricky week for Theresa May -

1:03:16 > 1:03:16again, you might think.

1:03:16 > 1:03:19She's lost a Cabinet minister and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:19 > 1:03:22which did little for party unity, to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:22 > 1:03:25vote on Brexit and yet more reports of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:25 > 1:03:27this time apparently over housing.

1:03:27 > 1:03:29So, is the Prime Minister's time in office going with a bang

1:03:29 > 1:03:31or more of a whimper?

1:03:31 > 1:03:32Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:32 > 1:03:34and the entirely unscientific Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:34 > 1:03:36to Conservative-held Surrey, to find out.

1:03:36 > 1:03:39ALL:Three, two, one.

1:03:39 > 1:03:45# Ignite the light and let it shine...#

1:03:45 > 1:03:49It's a tale of lit fuses, plots, conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:49 > 1:03:53but enough of the recent goings on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:53 > 1:03:57it's firework night here in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:57 > 1:03:59does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

1:03:59 > 1:04:00Yes or no?

1:04:00 > 1:04:06# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:06 > 1:04:08With all the scandals in Government at the moment

1:04:08 > 1:04:11and Brexit seems to be dragging on a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:11 > 1:04:15So, at the moment, I don't think she is in control.

1:04:17 > 1:04:21She's too many people sniping at her back, really.

1:04:21 > 1:04:22Do you think Theresa May's in control?

1:04:22 > 1:04:24I think she's in control.

1:04:24 > 1:04:26She's in a good job having a tough time.

1:04:26 > 1:04:27No, I don't.

1:04:27 > 1:04:28I think she's a mess.

1:04:28 > 1:04:31Even when you read her body language when she's being interviewed

1:04:31 > 1:04:34by people, she doesn't seem like she's in control.

1:04:34 > 1:04:38I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:40 > 1:04:44I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:44 > 1:04:47I do think she's struggling but, I still hope, still think she has

1:04:47 > 1:04:50a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:50 > 1:04:52The Queen is England's role.

1:04:52 > 1:04:55It's her birth right.

1:04:55 > 1:04:58She is England's role of this country.

1:04:58 > 1:05:01I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:05:01 > 1:05:04I don't think there's anyone who could do a better job.

1:05:04 > 1:05:07I think she's had a bit of a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:07 > 1:05:09I think she could have done better.

1:05:09 > 1:05:11The money's not going to where it needs to go.

1:05:11 > 1:05:13I think she should resign, really.

1:05:13 > 1:05:16I feel a bit sorry for her, actually.

1:05:16 > 1:05:17I think she's been witch-hunted a little bit.

1:05:17 > 1:05:21She's doing her best.

1:05:21 > 1:05:23With everything that's going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:23 > 1:05:27moment, I think the Conservative Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:27 > 1:05:29Very disappointed.

1:05:29 > 1:05:35Well, you get bickering in all parts not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:35 > 1:05:37And that's just sort of par for the course.

1:05:37 > 1:05:40But I'm sure she'll hold everybody together

1:05:40 > 1:05:42despite the current difficulties.

1:05:42 > 1:05:44The Tories weren't in control when they had the referendum

1:05:44 > 1:05:47in the first place for the euro.

1:05:47 > 1:05:49We've had two years of complete chaos.

1:05:49 > 1:05:53I don't see an end to it.

1:05:53 > 1:05:55Well, I seem to have acquired a few new friends.

1:05:55 > 1:05:58The oohs and ahs are over and so the moodbox

1:05:58 > 1:06:02and the result is...

1:06:02 > 1:06:03No.

1:06:03 > 1:06:05The majority of people here in Guildford

1:06:05 > 1:06:07don't think Theresa May is in control.

1:06:08 > 1:06:11CHEERING

1:06:11 > 1:06:14That was Ellie with the entirely unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:14 > 1:06:20to Bushy Hill Junior School in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:20 > 1:06:25Let's put the Sorbol question to our panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:25 > 1:06:28seasoned Westminster watchers. Is Theresa May in control of her

1:06:28 > 1:06:33Government at the moment or is all of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:33 > 1:06:38swimming around loosening her grip? Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:38 > 1:06:44All Prime Ministers have a degree of control. They retain the power much

1:06:44 > 1:06:49tat wrongage as we saw with her reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:49 > 1:06:54her MPs but she did it. You can't be fully in control of these situations

1:06:54 > 1:06:57in effectively what is a hung Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:57 > 1:07:01in the election she would have the authority to do what she wanted. She

1:07:01 > 1:07:05could float over something like this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:05 > 1:07:09say she's perfectly suited for it, the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:09 > 1:07:13goer, to sort it out. It is much more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:13 > 1:07:16think she will be able to get a full grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:16 > 1:07:21things that need to happen that will happen. I remember with back to

1:07:21 > 1:07:25basics and John Major, that equally vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:25 > 1:07:31basics about? It was still running months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:31 > 1:07:34minister having an affair. This is different. I can see it will be

1:07:34 > 1:07:39impossible for her to fully get to grips with it.Does it provide an

1:07:39 > 1:07:42opportunity for Theresa May to be seen to be taking really serious

1:07:42 > 1:07:46action, trying to root out a bad culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:46 > 1:07:50get some political credit for it? That opportunity was available to

1:07:50 > 1:07:56her all of last week and she hasn't taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:56 > 1:07:59is the near complete breakdown in discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:59 > 1:08:04Tory Party. It is extraordinary you have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:08:04 > 1:08:08not supporting their colleagues. Ministers and former ministers

1:08:08 > 1:08:11giving interviews in which they slag off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:11 > 1:08:16an absolute unholy mess. There is no sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:16 > 1:08:20has any particular solution. I think we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:20 > 1:08:24her in terms of finding a solution. How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:24 > 1:08:32like this where you're talking about apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:32 > 1:08:35retrospective examination of potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:35 > 1:08:39longer too historic for somebody to dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:39 > 1:08:43or may not have happened to them. It is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:43 > 1:08:50being battered around by events. Where does this story go next?I

1:08:50 > 1:08:54think the whip's office on every party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:54 > 1:08:57Democrats, SNP all have their own whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:57 > 1:09:02be the place of it really. This is because, where do we draw the line?

1:09:02 > 1:09:06Going forward what mechanisms are put in place to top this helping

1:09:06 > 1:09:10again. To take allegations seriously, report them and

1:09:10 > 1:09:15investigate them independently. Or is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:15 > 1:09:19into the past retrospective, who knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:19 > 1:09:24Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:24 > 1:09:29the Labour Party leader know about Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:29 > 1:09:33promoted him? Theresa May is unable to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:33 > 1:09:38simply too weak. I asked this of Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:38 > 1:09:42not more front-foot the on this. They said they would be if they

1:09:42 > 1:09:46possibly could be. She's running a minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:46 > 1:09:50seen to be going after a witch-hunt on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:50 > 1:09:59goes on. Enof thebly what the whips new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:59 > 1:10:08knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did the same thing on Andrew Marr.They

1:10:08 > 1:10:14are being precise about the fact they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:14 > 1:10:17Newton said she heard no allegations about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:17 > 1:10:24in charge of rather than rumours about any other Tories.Amber Rudd

1:10:24 > 1:10:30say, I do not recognise the more lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:30 > 1:10:34less lurid once? So, this smells very, very bad indeed.Jeremy

1:10:34 > 1:10:40Corbyn's going to have to answer some of these questions as well?

1:10:40 > 1:10:45Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:45 > 1:10:47vote out for the Government fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:47 > 1:10:51They are not there, it is one of the problems. They are not there to be

1:10:51 > 1:10:55moral guides to these MPs. They are there to win votes for the

1:10:55 > 1:11:00Government or the opposition if that becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:11:00 > 1:11:03with MPs to make sure they get out and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:03 > 1:11:08virtually everything. But whether they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:08 > 1:11:12guard yawns in these situations, I don't think they were. It was not

1:11:12 > 1:11:16part of their job. Maybe you need moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:16 > 1:11:21whips.Normally, less than three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:21 > 1:11:24what we'd been talking about. Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:24 > 1:11:27that's set for November 22nd, is that an opportunity for the

1:11:27 > 1:11:32Government to seize back control of the story?Philip Hammond may be

1:11:32 > 1:11:35glad we're not spending too much time talking about the budget. It

1:11:35 > 1:11:40should be an opportunity for the Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:40 > 1:11:44a line under all of this. I think one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:44 > 1:11:48of this so-called scandal for the Government to manage is knowing

1:11:48 > 1:11:51quite how long it will run. In the normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:51 > 1:11:56steam after a couple of weeks. But there are so many potential gayses

1:11:56 > 1:12:00that could come out, it might run longer than that. Rather like the

1:12:00 > 1:12:03expenses scandal. But there is an opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:03 > 1:12:09the' again da. I just don't think Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:09 > 1:12:12he's a very caution Chancellor. At the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:12 > 1:12:18Theresa May's leadership is so weak it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:18 > 1:12:23do anything particularly dram attic why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:23 > 1:12:27budget where they will be hoping not to make any mistakes.You say there

1:12:27 > 1:12:33is disagreement in the Cabinet about what should be in the budget?

1:12:33 > 1:12:39Disagreement between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:39 > 1:12:43witch-hunt is hiding a huge story which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:43 > 1:12:46between Number Ten and number 11. Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:46 > 1:12:51bear to be in the same room with each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:51 > 1:12:55in the budget. It is coming down to housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:55 > 1:13:01be the centrepiece of the budget. They have to get more houses built.

1:13:01 > 1:13:06Philip Hammond wands that bee deregulation. Theresa May wants to

1:13:06 > 1:13:09are borrow up to 50 billion merchandise more for the Government

1:13:09 > 1:13:10to build for themselves.

1:13:10 > 1:13:11That's all for today.

1:13:11 > 1:13:14There's no Sunday Politics next weekend

1:13:14 > 1:13:15while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:15 > 1:13:18but I'll be back here at 11am on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:18 > 1:13:23Until then, bye bye.