:01:33. > :01:36.The Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness on the Queen, the
:01:36. > :01:46.discrimination tribunal and reconciliation. Join me in half-an-
:01:46. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :29:49.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1683 seconds
:29:49. > :29:54.Welcome to the programme. Momentous, historic, unprecedented,
:29:54. > :30:00.however you look at it, this week saw yet another landmark moment. A
:30:00. > :30:06.once unthinkable gesture between a former IRA leader and the Commander
:30:06. > :30:10.in Chief of the British armed forces. We will hear from a man --
:30:10. > :30:18.the man at the centre of it all, Martin McGuinness. With this, Alex
:30:18. > :30:22.Kane and Eamonn McDermott. This week's handshake ended months
:30:22. > :30:25.of speculation and discussion as the Deputy First Minister met the
:30:25. > :30:29.Queen and Duke of Edinburgh. On Friday I interviewed Martin
:30:29. > :30:35.McGuinness and began by asking him if he had been nervous.
:30:35. > :30:40.No, not in the least. I obviously understood the historical
:30:40. > :30:46.significance of what was about to happen and what did happen. Not in
:30:46. > :30:51.the least nervous, because I had a very clear understanding that
:30:51. > :30:58.whenever the Palace decided that she would participate in this event
:30:58. > :31:01.under the auspices of co-operation Ireland and they -- and in the
:31:01. > :31:05.company of Peter Robinson and myself, I knew I was dealing with
:31:05. > :31:10.people who were anxious to ensure that this symbolic act would feed
:31:10. > :31:16.into the peace process in a very powerful way. Of course, the next
:31:17. > :31:24.phase of that process has to be a process of reconciliation. I hope
:31:24. > :31:28.the work that others within Sinn Fein and the Unionist community,
:31:28. > :31:36.and a Protestant churches who are at the exploratory stage of this
:31:36. > :31:39.process, can use what happened on Wednesday as a powerful indicator
:31:39. > :31:46.that Sinn Fein are not playing games with this issue. This is a
:31:46. > :31:49.very important issue and one to which we intend to contribute in a
:31:49. > :31:54.positive and meaningful way. There has been lots of meaningful
:31:54. > :32:00.coverage about your personal journey, with pictures going back
:32:00. > :32:04.to the early 1970s. Is there a particular moment in the last 40
:32:04. > :32:10.years when he went from sighing never, going from war to peace, was
:32:10. > :32:15.there were part -- a defining moment? The last 40 years has been
:32:15. > :32:20.an incredible journey. There's nothing romantic about it, nothing
:32:20. > :32:28.glorious about it at, and nothing glorious about war. I was always
:32:28. > :32:31.very conscious of that. We live in a time -- we lived in a time were
:32:32. > :32:36.better battles were taking place, where people were poorer opposites
:32:36. > :32:41.and when there was a dismal failure of politics and politicians,
:32:41. > :32:46.particularly on the British government's side. For me, it was
:32:46. > :32:51.about recognising that we were in the midst of a conflict, one that
:32:51. > :32:55.conceivably could have gone on for a very long time, even to this day.
:32:55. > :32:58.When it comes to meeting the Queen this week, could you have ever
:32:58. > :33:04.envisaged when you were in the earlier part of your journey by you
:33:04. > :33:10.would have met the Queen? honest answer is no. Likewise, in
:33:10. > :33:14.the early stages of this process, particularly in the aftermath of
:33:14. > :33:17.the achievement of the Good Friday Agreement, when the Democratic
:33:17. > :33:22.Unionist Party said that Berra raison d'etre was to bring about
:33:22. > :33:24.the destruction of the agreement, I never imagined that a number of
:33:24. > :33:34.years later I would have walked into government alongside Ian
:33:34. > :33:42.Paisley, which was another historic moment in 2007. You soon learn,
:33:42. > :33:45.when you're in this process, that sometimes anything is possible.
:33:45. > :33:49.When it comes to the day of a handshake and the meeting, there
:33:49. > :33:55.has been speculation that the Duke of Edinburgh doctor out of the way.
:33:55. > :33:59.Is that how you interpreted it? at all. It is typical of the media,
:33:59. > :34:04.trying to speculate about what happened. What happens in
:34:04. > :34:08.circumstances like that is that Prince Philip knows whenever Queen
:34:08. > :34:14.Elizabeth moves at any event, he has to be close by her side. My
:34:14. > :34:21.sense of it was that is what happened. It was a very good
:34:21. > :34:26.natured meeting. It was very powerful. It was very nice and it
:34:26. > :34:31.was a coming together of people who obviously had different allegiances,
:34:31. > :34:35.but it was a very genuine act of peace and reconciliation. Prince
:34:35. > :34:42.Philip was as much of that -- a part of that as Queen Elizabeth,
:34:42. > :34:49.Peter Robinson, the President of Ireland, and myself. You said bet
:34:49. > :34:53.you wanted to shake hands of every Protestant and Unionist. How does
:34:53. > :34:57.the judgment from Conor Murphy's discrimination case tie into that?
:34:57. > :35:04.Is that not disappointing and embarrassing for Sinn Fein?
:35:04. > :35:08.been released. This is far from finished. People are seeking legal
:35:08. > :35:15.advice and I would not be at all surprised if this decision was to
:35:15. > :35:19.be appeased, possibly not just by Conor Murphy but the department and
:35:20. > :35:25.officials who are associated with the department. We will await the
:35:25. > :35:30.outcome. There is not a sectarian bone in Conor Murphy's body. Conor
:35:30. > :35:35.Murphy is part of our leadership. Naturally, it is disappointing that
:35:35. > :35:45.such a verdict was reached by the tribunal, but that will have to run
:35:45. > :35:45.
:35:45. > :35:50.its course and it will become something to discuss at some stage.
:35:50. > :35:55.Does this not call for his resignation? We have to be mature
:35:55. > :36:01.about this. What is called into question is whether a minister has
:36:01. > :36:05.a right to make a ministerial appointment, or are ministerial did
:36:05. > :36:13.-- appointment going to be dictated by a body which is not part of the
:36:14. > :36:17.government? It is suggested he changed the criteria. We will leave
:36:17. > :36:22.that to the appeals process. I will not get into analysing the decision
:36:22. > :36:26.or the response, except to say but I would have no active part in
:36:26. > :36:30.being involved in an administration that is prepared to discriminate
:36:30. > :36:35.against anybody. As Irish republicans, who have been long
:36:35. > :36:39.discriminated against ourselves, the last thing we want to do is
:36:39. > :36:45.impose any form of discrimination or inequality on any body from the
:36:45. > :36:50.Protestant community. You have talked about lots of Never Say
:36:51. > :36:55.Never moments and the art of the impossible. Can you imagine a time
:36:55. > :37:03.that Sinn Fein would take seas at Westminster? No, and I made a
:37:03. > :37:07.speech in the House of Commons at - - last night that I will be shortly
:37:07. > :37:13.resigning my seat because Sinn Fein has decided that double-jobbing
:37:13. > :37:18.will end. We will be engaging with political parties at Westminster
:37:18. > :37:23.and on the international stage. I said last night that people need to
:37:23. > :37:27.respect our position in this. This is a very principled republican
:37:27. > :37:34.position of long-standing. When we stand in elections we seek support
:37:34. > :37:38.from the electorate on the basis of our abstentionist policy and in
:37:39. > :37:48.five very powerful constituencies in the north, we have received the
:37:49. > :37:50.
:37:50. > :37:56.support of the people. Is that an admission by do still have some way
:37:56. > :38:02.to go in terms of convincing Unionists of the ideal of a united
:38:02. > :38:08.Ireland? The honest answer is yes. Unionist allegiance is to what they
:38:08. > :38:14.call the United Kingdom, and our allegiance is to the island of
:38:14. > :38:19.Ireland and the people of Ireland. But should not prevent us from
:38:19. > :38:25.continuing to be involved in joint processes, which make people's
:38:25. > :38:29.lives better. Over the course of the next couple of weeks I hope to
:38:29. > :38:38.see through our speaker at the Assembly, and the Speaker of the
:38:38. > :38:46.Irish parliament, making no public announcement that there will be a
:38:46. > :38:51.meeting of an Inter Parliamentary Association made up of equal
:38:51. > :38:55.numbers from Dublin and the Northern Ireland Assembly. All of
:38:55. > :38:59.that is an example of how we can move forward to ensure that
:39:00. > :39:03.politicians on the island of Ireland are involved in very
:39:03. > :39:08.serious discussions and deliberations about how we can, for
:39:08. > :39:13.example, work together economic lead to make life better for the
:39:13. > :39:18.people we represent. It has been said this week they you do not gain
:39:18. > :39:24.anything from being involved over the last 40 years. What motivates
:39:24. > :39:27.you? I am an Irish republican. I want to bring about a free and
:39:27. > :39:30.independent Ireland but I want to do that by purely peaceful and
:39:31. > :39:34.democratic means. I say that as someone who was involved in the
:39:34. > :39:41.conflict and has not been afraid to say that I was involved in the
:39:41. > :39:48.conflict. Does that help motivate you, the regret about the people
:39:48. > :39:52.died? It motivated me. We address this earlier, I said that I came to
:39:52. > :39:57.be conclusion that there was a monetary stalemate. If there is a
:39:57. > :40:03.stalemate, if that monetary struggle continues, people are
:40:03. > :40:08.going to lose their lives. If people like Gerry Adams and myself
:40:08. > :40:11.had not been involved in trying to get a ceasefire in 194 -- 1994, I
:40:11. > :40:21.have no doubt that the IRA would still been fighting the British
:40:21. > :40:27.
:40:27. > :40:30.Army to this very day. The roads would still have been covered by a
:40:30. > :40:40.British army checkpoint. Things have changed because we made it
:40:40. > :40:41.
:40:41. > :40:46.changed. Alex Kane, a robust defence of
:40:46. > :40:50.Conor Murphy. Does that surprise you? Not at all. When you hear a
:40:50. > :40:57.Sinn Fein minister said that there is not a sectarian bone in his
:40:57. > :41:03.colleague's body, you almost expect it to be followed by a statement
:41:03. > :41:10.that some of his friends are in the Orange Order. I suspect that Conor
:41:10. > :41:14.Murphy did make a huge mistake. It may not have been made as a
:41:14. > :41:19.sectarian mistake, but there was a decision that someone should not
:41:19. > :41:23.have been in a position because of his political background. How has
:41:23. > :41:26.the handshake gone down in Derry? It sounds as if there are two
:41:26. > :41:36.different sides. Some people think there is disquiet, something it was
:41:36. > :41:36.
:41:36. > :41:40.a damp squib? -- some think it was. It is politics of the jester. I did
:41:40. > :41:50.a piece for the newspaper during the week and one man said to me, it
:41:50. > :41:54.will make no difference. There is disquiet. The Queen is not held in
:41:54. > :42:00.great esteem in nationalist circles. It is not looked upon as anything
:42:00. > :42:04.major in the sense that she is some figure of importance. There is
:42:04. > :42:07.disquiet in that Martin McGuinness says he is still a Republican.
:42:07. > :42:13.People are saying, how can a Republican shake hands with the
:42:13. > :42:19.head of British state? People are also saying that it is a step
:42:19. > :42:24.forward, it had to come at some stage. There are mixed feelings.
:42:24. > :42:29.How do you think it has gone in the Unionist community? There is a
:42:29. > :42:35.Jekyll and Hyde man of the station. On Wednesday, you had the bonhomie,
:42:35. > :42:40.by handshakes, the smiles. 24 hours later, Martin McGuinness was in
:42:40. > :42:44.London, blaming the British for everything. He is justifying the 40
:42:45. > :42:51.years of his own involvement in it the terrorist struggle and talking
:42:51. > :42:55.about reconciliation which only requires that section of Unionism
:42:55. > :43:01.to take them over. On one hand he says he is doing it to help but on
:43:01. > :43:11.the other hand he is been terribly insulting and terror be petty. --
:43:11. > :43:12.
:43:12. > :43:16.terribly Petit. Did he have to play a bike that? You have to remember
:43:16. > :43:21.that Sinn Fein are playing an All Ireland ticket. Shaking hands with
:43:21. > :43:27.the British Queen is popular in the south, and they will gain a lot of
:43:27. > :43:31.credos in the south. It is not so popular in the south. They are
:43:31. > :43:36.taking a risk in a strategy, saying they can't pick up support in the
:43:36. > :43:43.south and hoping they do not lose it in the north. It is a balancing
:43:43. > :43:48.act and I think time will tell whether it has paid off. The Inter
:43:49. > :43:58.Parliamentary formant -- forum will meet at Stormont, how do you think
:43:59. > :44:00.
:44:00. > :44:05.it will go down? I think it is part of the optics. Both sides will take
:44:05. > :44:11.what they want but no decisions will be made.
:44:11. > :44:20.Thousands braved the wane and stood for ours included -- juice two cat
:44:20. > :44:25.Je Adams of the Queen on her Diamond Jubilee trap. -- thousands
:44:25. > :44:35.braved the rain and stayed for hours to capture a glimpse of the
:44:35. > :45:00.
:45:00. > :45:04.Queen. For anyone who has lost family who
:45:04. > :45:14.were volunteers, to them it will be a very sad day it because he will
:45:14. > :45:28.
:45:28. > :45:38.I am still a Republican. How does it feel to meet the Queen? Very
:45:38. > :45:58.
:45:58. > :46:08.It is different days and shows how There was more than one political
:46:08. > :46:13.
:46:13. > :46:17.story this week. It was not all fun A very long week for customers of
:46:17. > :46:22.the Ulster Bank. The problems are not over yet. The issue is complex
:46:22. > :46:26.and challenging but we are making progress. It will be next week.
:46:26. > :46:33.schools can bank on a brighter future after a large amount of
:46:33. > :46:41.money, 173 million, was made available for new buildings. For it
:46:41. > :46:44.every school that announced today, as many need investment. There were
:46:44. > :46:47.calls for investment in the water and sewerage system after heavy
:46:47. > :46:52.rain brought some of the worst flooding seen in Northern Ireland
:46:52. > :46:58.in years. The fire service, no response. Northern Ireland Water,
:46:58. > :47:05.no response. It is despicable in this day and age. And of course,
:47:05. > :47:10.there was a HANDSHAKE -- and of course, there was THAT handshake.
:47:10. > :47:19.It is a further to a bid that has been cast to decide. It shows that
:47:19. > :47:28.we are becoming a normal society. There is a story today about the
:47:28. > :47:34.parlous the estate of an IRA apology. Martin McGuinness said it
:47:34. > :47:38.was nonsense last night. It says they are going to decide that the
:47:38. > :47:44.armed struggle was legitimate, yet apologised to security forces
:47:44. > :47:47.victims. You cannot apologise if you do not think it is wrong.
:47:47. > :47:53.Republicans have apologised to what they class as the innocent victims
:47:53. > :47:59.of their campaign. He wrote down that road would be a step too far
:47:59. > :48:03.from or even the most hardened Republican. There is a demand from
:48:03. > :48:09.Unionists. Gregory Campbell said it was time for republicans to say
:48:09. > :48:14.that their campaign was wrong. That is a total disavowal of everything
:48:14. > :48:18.you believe in. I cannot see be grass roots supporting that.
:48:18. > :48:25.would it make a difference to Unionists? I do not think it would
:48:25. > :48:30.make a difference. I do not see how they could do that after what
:48:30. > :48:37.Martin McGuinness said on Thursday. I do not think Unionists are
:48:37. > :48:40.looking for that sort of gesture. If they are looking for anything it
:48:40. > :48:45.is a government working in Northern Ireland for Northern Ireland.
:48:45. > :48:51.had a good example of that this week, it was Stormont's chance to
:48:51. > :48:55.shine. They failed miserably in their reaction to the floods.
:48:55. > :49:01.live in East Belfast and at one stage I thought I would need a boat.
:49:01. > :49:05.I could not get any services for six hours. If they cannot deal with
:49:05. > :49:08.something that basic, and they knew it was going to happen, they have
:49:08. > :49:15.had experience of this in the past five years and every single
:49:15. > :49:22.occasion they have got it completely wrong. Handing out just
:49:22. > :49:28.�1,000 is ridiculous. That will not play well with victims? I think