0:00:34 > 0:00:37Hello, and welcome to Sunday Politics.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39The Assembly is preparing to debate same-sex marriage
0:00:39 > 0:00:41for the fifth time in recent years.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44But should it be a matter of conscience rather than party policy?
0:00:44 > 0:00:47I'll be asking the Alliance Party and the SDLP
0:00:47 > 0:00:50why it's such a difficult issue for some of their members.
0:00:50 > 0:00:52Plus, as Emma Pengelly is made a minister
0:00:52 > 0:00:55just a month after becoming an Assembly member,
0:00:55 > 0:00:58is there a better way to replace MLAs than co-option?
0:00:58 > 0:01:00And with me throughout are the journalist Allison Morris
0:01:00 > 0:01:03and the academic Professor Peter Shirlow.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12The Assembly will vote on same-sex marriage tomorrow
0:01:12 > 0:01:13for the fifth time in recent years
0:01:13 > 0:01:17and, for the fifth time, the proposal is destined to fail
0:01:17 > 0:01:19after the DUP lodged a petition of concern.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23However, it's not just the DUP which has a problem with the issue.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Members of the Alliance Party and the SDLP
0:01:25 > 0:01:28have both either abstained or voted no on previous occasions.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31So, should it be a matter of personal conscience?
0:01:31 > 0:01:35With me are the SDLP's Claire Hanna, and the Alliance Party's Trevor Lunn.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38We did ask the DUP to send someone along today, but the party declined.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40Welcome to you both.
0:01:40 > 0:01:43Claire Hanna, this motion isn't going to pass tomorrow.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45It can't with the petition of concern.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47But how will your members vote?
0:01:47 > 0:01:49I think it's unfortunate that it won't be debated fully,
0:01:49 > 0:01:51that the outcome is pre-supposed.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54But I understand that some of my colleagues
0:01:54 > 0:01:56who did have a problem with it before
0:01:56 > 0:02:00are likely to change their mind, and at least one isn't.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04And I think at least the issue will be debated.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06The referendum in the South, I think,
0:02:06 > 0:02:08moved people on tremendously
0:02:08 > 0:02:11and the arguments were aired and were played out
0:02:11 > 0:02:13in a constructive fashion.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15And, clearly, a lot of people changed their mind.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18If you look how far we've come, it wasn't five years ago
0:02:18 > 0:02:21that people were using terms like "abomination" and "repulsed",
0:02:21 > 0:02:24and we don't hear that any more, and if you look at...
0:02:24 > 0:02:25As I say, in the Republic,
0:02:25 > 0:02:27the polling initially wasn't encouraging.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30People like Enda Kenny, who weren't enthusiastic,
0:02:30 > 0:02:33and by the end of it became strong campaigners on the issue.
0:02:33 > 0:02:36And I think that we will see some movement in the Assembly.
0:02:36 > 0:02:39That's interesting. So, just to be clear, in April,
0:02:39 > 0:02:41when this was last voted on in the Assembly,
0:02:41 > 0:02:45five members of the SDLP abstained, nine voted yes.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48But the five who abstained, you're saying some of them
0:02:48 > 0:02:50may have changed their positions and may vote yes tomorrow?
0:02:50 > 0:02:53Well, that's my understanding. Do you know how many?
0:02:53 > 0:02:55I don't want to put an exact number on it.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58But it has been discussed, and I think a number of things...
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Have they been threatened with disciplinary action?
0:03:01 > 0:03:02No, they haven't been threatened.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05I don't think that's the type of debate that we want to have.
0:03:05 > 0:03:08I certainly don't want to be in a party where people are coerced,
0:03:08 > 0:03:10that doesn't allow dissent.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12I don't want to be in a society that doesn't allow dissent.
0:03:12 > 0:03:13I think people are balancing up,
0:03:13 > 0:03:16people are struggling to reconcile it with their faith.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19Although I personally was very encouraged,
0:03:19 > 0:03:20and I know other members have been,
0:03:20 > 0:03:23by the likes of organisations, Faith in Marriage,
0:03:23 > 0:03:25that talk about what a great institution marriage is
0:03:25 > 0:03:27and how it's helpful to extend it.
0:03:27 > 0:03:29But I think people have been persuaded by the argument,
0:03:29 > 0:03:33they've seen some of the testimony of people in the South
0:03:33 > 0:03:36of what it has meant to them to have equal marriage offered to them,
0:03:36 > 0:03:38what it has meant to young people
0:03:38 > 0:03:41who might have been struggling with their sexuality... OK. ..and the perception of it.
0:03:41 > 0:03:45There have been, Trevor Lunn, four votes on this in the past.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48You have voted against and you have also abstained.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51You've had a change of heart. Are you going to vote yes tomorrow?
0:03:51 > 0:03:56Yes, Mark, I'll be voting yes, along with five of my colleagues.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59We're still talking to two of them.
0:03:59 > 0:04:03It has been a journey for me, certainly.
0:04:03 > 0:04:07I have gone from having misgivings a way back about civil partnerships,
0:04:07 > 0:04:10right through the whole spectrum of opinion on this.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13I'm now satisfied it's an equality issue.
0:04:13 > 0:04:17And if I think that gay people are equal to the rest of us, and I do,
0:04:17 > 0:04:20and if I think they're entitled to display that,
0:04:20 > 0:04:22if I think they're entitled to adopt, as I do,
0:04:22 > 0:04:25and I have no problem whatever with gay blood,
0:04:25 > 0:04:28in fact, equality right across the board,
0:04:28 > 0:04:32then I find it very difficult any more to oppose civil marriage...
0:04:32 > 0:04:34civil marriage.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36Do you think, then, that you got it wrong in the past?
0:04:36 > 0:04:39I think politicians are entitled to change their mind, Mark.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42You mentioned at the top of the programme
0:04:42 > 0:04:44whether it's equality or conscience.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47It's an equality issue for the party.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51It's very difficult to divorce your conscience from an issue like this.
0:04:51 > 0:04:52It's very sensitive.
0:04:52 > 0:04:54Right across the parties...
0:04:54 > 0:04:58All the parties in the Assembly have some problems with this.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01What about your party colleagues who, tomorrow,
0:05:01 > 0:05:04may abstain or might vote no?
0:05:04 > 0:05:06We've had to deal with this...
0:05:06 > 0:05:11In particular, the party has had to deal with me in the last five years.
0:05:11 > 0:05:13I have not been disciplined.
0:05:13 > 0:05:18In our last manifesto, which is really where it goes back to,
0:05:18 > 0:05:22same-sex, equal marriage wasn't mentioned.
0:05:22 > 0:05:23It wasn't an issue then.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26It's since become a firm party policy.
0:05:26 > 0:05:30But because it hasn't been endorsed in a manifesto,
0:05:30 > 0:05:33we're taking a reasonable view with people,
0:05:33 > 0:05:37like myself in the past, and with a couple of stragglers now,
0:05:37 > 0:05:38who choose to maintain,
0:05:38 > 0:05:41for their own personal reasons, a particular point of view.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44Is that perfectly reasonable that they should do that,
0:05:44 > 0:05:46those stragglers, as you call them,
0:05:46 > 0:05:51who are not singing off the same song sheet as the rest of the party?
0:05:51 > 0:05:54Is that reasonable for them to do that on this issue, or not?
0:05:54 > 0:05:58I can hardly criticise them personally, Mark,
0:05:58 > 0:06:00because of where I've been on this.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02I have to respect somebody
0:06:02 > 0:06:04who perhaps comes from a devout Catholic background
0:06:04 > 0:06:07who just can't reconcile themselves to this,
0:06:07 > 0:06:09or any other particular religious background.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13But I'm comfortable with where I am now on it.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16But I have to respect other people's views.
0:06:16 > 0:06:19It's a sensitive issue. It is a sensitive issue, obviously.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23Do you think, Claire Hanna, that this should be an open vote,
0:06:23 > 0:06:26based on conscience, for all of the parties right across the board?
0:06:26 > 0:06:28I think it probably should,
0:06:28 > 0:06:30and that's how we'll get to an open discussion.
0:06:30 > 0:06:31There are going to be people...
0:06:31 > 0:06:34There are, I understand, members within the DUP
0:06:34 > 0:06:35who would like to support it.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38I want to be very clear, I'm 100%... I've heard that anecdotally.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Are you sure that is the case? I've only heard it anecdotally.
0:06:41 > 0:06:43I haven't heard it from the horse's mouth.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46But, you know, you would imagine, representative of society,
0:06:46 > 0:06:49it's unlikely that 30-plus people are all opposed to it,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52and people will have that discussion.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54I want to be very clear. I'm 100%.
0:06:54 > 0:06:56I have no problem supporting this,
0:06:56 > 0:06:58and I hope the same would be of my colleagues.
0:06:58 > 0:07:00I want them to be persuaded by the arguments.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02I think people are balancing up their faith,
0:07:02 > 0:07:05but also their conscience, but their duty as a representative as well.
0:07:05 > 0:07:09I know I've had literally just shy of 500 e-mails
0:07:09 > 0:07:12into my office in the last week asking me to support this,
0:07:12 > 0:07:13which I'm happily doing.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15And I think others as well are being persuaded
0:07:15 > 0:07:18on the strength of feeling among their electorate as well.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21But I think where people can vote on their conscience
0:07:21 > 0:07:23is probably the only way to get it through
0:07:23 > 0:07:25and for it not to be a petition of concern.
0:07:25 > 0:07:27And it would be good if the Assembly could be ahead of it
0:07:27 > 0:07:30and not have to be forced to do it through the courts.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33It would be good if people could come to a positive realisation.
0:07:33 > 0:07:34I'll come onto that in a moment.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the courts,
0:07:37 > 0:07:39and also on the use of the petition of concern.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42But, Trevor, I'm just picking up on Claire Hanna's point there
0:07:42 > 0:07:45that she's been deluged with people lobbying her on this issue.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48I suspect you've probably had a lot of lobbying as well,
0:07:48 > 0:07:51and some of it may have been coming from different quarters.
0:07:51 > 0:07:54Are there people who are disappointed that you have changed your position?
0:07:54 > 0:08:00The people who praised me in the past for maintaining a position
0:08:00 > 0:08:04are now quite critical because I've changed my position.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06And what do you say to them in response?
0:08:06 > 0:08:09I say to them that politicians are entitled to change their mind.
0:08:09 > 0:08:14It makes me smile... I hear you talking about, Claire, about the DUP
0:08:14 > 0:08:17and whether all their members, for instance, would support this
0:08:17 > 0:08:20if they weren't dragooned into acceptance of the party position.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23I would be in absolutely no doubt about that.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26And I wouldn't be in any doubt that there's members of Sinn Fein
0:08:26 > 0:08:29who would not support it if they were given a free vote.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32A free vote is the way to go on this. A free vote.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34That's interesting that you're both saying that.
0:08:34 > 0:08:36Are you also both saying that it is wrong
0:08:36 > 0:08:38to use a petition of concern in a situation like this?
0:08:38 > 0:08:42Well... Do you regard it, Trevor Lunn, as an abuse of that mechanism?
0:08:42 > 0:08:45Well, I have long thought that petitions of concern
0:08:45 > 0:08:49on Private Members' Motions are a complete nonsense.
0:08:49 > 0:08:50And the petition tomorrow
0:08:50 > 0:08:54will not change the balance of the vote one iota.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57Because the three-line whip by Sinn Fein and by DUP
0:08:57 > 0:08:59would have exactly the same effect.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03This is an unnecessary use of a mechanism
0:09:03 > 0:09:06which I continue to think is unnecessary in the first place.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09Do you agree with that? It's unnecessary, and it's inappropriate.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12The petition of concern is designed to protect minorities,
0:09:12 > 0:09:15and in this case, it's being used to, effectively, oppress a minority.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17It's being used to block progress for a minority.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19So, it's inappropriate,
0:09:19 > 0:09:22and it is using a hammer to crack a nut in this case.
0:09:22 > 0:09:24Just a quick answer from each of you.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27Will the courts ultimately settle this issue? Yes, they will.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30And I think it would send out such a positive message to society
0:09:30 > 0:09:32and to young people in particular that we can say
0:09:32 > 0:09:34your relationships are valid and to be celebrated
0:09:34 > 0:09:36and the same as anybody else's.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38It's ridiculous that you can be married
0:09:38 > 0:09:41in every other part of this island, but not in Northern Ireland.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43Where does your marriage become invalid?
0:09:43 > 0:09:45The courts are going to clear it up.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48You'll look at the Supreme Court ruling in the US that says
0:09:48 > 0:09:50you can't have inconsistent marriage laws across states.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54It will come through, but we shouldn't have to be dragged through the hedge about it.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56Do you agree with that? Because as we understand it,
0:09:56 > 0:09:59there are a number of cases going through the courts at the moment.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01Yes, there are cases pending in the courts.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05I think it's a sad reflection, frankly,
0:10:05 > 0:10:08on our ability to pass legislation in this country,
0:10:08 > 0:10:10that we have to leave it to the courts.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13But I can't help thinking that some of the people who oppose this now,
0:10:13 > 0:10:15oppose the principle,
0:10:15 > 0:10:18would be quite happy to see the courts take a decision on it,
0:10:18 > 0:10:19because it gets them off the hook.
0:10:19 > 0:10:21It's an abdication of responsibility.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23Interesting to hear your thoughts.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26It's going to be interesting to hear the debate and to see what the result is.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29Although I suppose we know what the ultimate result is going to be.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32But it will be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35Let's hear what my guests of the day make of that.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38Allison Morris and Professor Pete Shirlow are with me.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42Allison, do you think that the tide is changing on this issue?
0:10:42 > 0:10:45The tide's definitely changed, and we've seen that with the South.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47Who would have thought, you know, in the Republic,
0:10:47 > 0:10:50that was once completely controlled by the Church
0:10:50 > 0:10:52that you would have had such a sort of swelling
0:10:52 > 0:10:55and such support then for gay marriage?
0:10:55 > 0:10:58And I think it makes our position seem all the more ridiculous.
0:10:58 > 0:10:59And they're right.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02The use of the petition of concern in this case is an abuse.
0:11:02 > 0:11:04It's an abuse of the process.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06And to leave it for the courts to sort out is a cop-out.
0:11:06 > 0:11:09And if there was a free debate and if there was a free vote,
0:11:09 > 0:11:13I think you would find, probably not with an outstanding majority,
0:11:13 > 0:11:16but it would definitely pass through the Assembly
0:11:16 > 0:11:17if that was allowed to go ahead.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20Although it lost... It was two votes the other way last time round.
0:11:20 > 0:11:22But we can hear Trevor's changed his mind.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25I think several other people have also changed their mind.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27And also, it's interesting to see,
0:11:27 > 0:11:29if the Sinn Fein and the DUP both lifted their whip,
0:11:29 > 0:11:31who would go either way?
0:11:31 > 0:11:34Would some people in Sinn Fein vote against, or would some people in the DUP vote for?
0:11:34 > 0:11:38Wouldn't we love to know what people really thought?
0:11:38 > 0:11:39Because if I'm voting for someone,
0:11:39 > 0:11:41I want to know what they think on certain issues.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44I think that's why it should be a free vote.
0:11:44 > 0:11:47The electorate have the right to know the people they're voting for
0:11:47 > 0:11:48and what they think on this issue.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51But we're a long way away from that, Pete, at this stage.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53We're a long way away from a vote like this ever happening
0:11:53 > 0:11:56without a petition of concern and a free vote.
0:11:56 > 0:11:57Yeah, and we'll probably be back
0:11:57 > 0:12:00for the sixth and seventh and eighth debate
0:12:00 > 0:12:01unless the courts change it.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04One of the things we have to realise here is what's happening
0:12:04 > 0:12:06is a change in attitudes
0:12:06 > 0:12:08which has taken place over the last 20 or 30 years.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10If you look at the Life and Times survey
0:12:10 > 0:12:13and you look at the recent survey we completed with the ESRC funding,
0:12:13 > 0:12:16what you find is the vast majority of people support gay marriage.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19And amongst those under the age of 30,
0:12:19 > 0:12:22a significant majority support gay marriage.
0:12:22 > 0:12:24So, we're looking at something that has changed dramatically.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27One of the big changes that's taken place
0:12:27 > 0:12:29when you look at that question that's been asked over 30 years
0:12:29 > 0:12:31has been the Protestant community,
0:12:31 > 0:12:33who have actually increasingly become supportive
0:12:33 > 0:12:35both of gay marriage and also of mixed marriage,
0:12:35 > 0:12:38where you now are talking about a majority
0:12:38 > 0:12:40for both of those questions.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42So, the tide, what Nesbitt talked about...
0:12:42 > 0:12:45Mike Nesbitt talked about the wrong side of history.
0:12:45 > 0:12:46They're on the wrong side of public opinion.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48And that's crucially important.
0:12:48 > 0:12:50And I think that idea of the courts being a fob
0:12:50 > 0:12:53is the reality of what we're looking at here.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55We also have to realise this is a debate about righting wrongs.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58We're talking about a community that's been criminalised,
0:12:58 > 0:13:01that's been exploited, that's been oppressed
0:13:01 > 0:13:02that's been placed outside society.
0:13:02 > 0:13:05It's crucially important that we do show leadership,
0:13:05 > 0:13:09that Northern Ireland is a plural, open, liberal, tolerant society.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12We'll hear more from both of you a little later in the programme.
0:13:12 > 0:13:13For now, thanks very much indeed.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Let's take a look back at the political week gone past
0:13:16 > 0:13:18in 60 seconds with Chris Page.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26As the Stormont talks approached the endgame,
0:13:26 > 0:13:29everyone was discussing deals and deadlines.
0:13:29 > 0:13:33I do think that we're talking more about days rather than weeks.
0:13:33 > 0:13:36My judgment is that...
0:13:36 > 0:13:42if we do not get agreement within the next ten days,
0:13:42 > 0:13:44there will be no agreement.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47We will remain in the talks at Stormont House.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49It looks as if we've got a week or two maximum.
0:13:49 > 0:13:54The DUP appointed their recently co-opted MLA, Emma Pengelly,
0:13:54 > 0:13:55as a junior minister.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58But not everyone in the party was happy.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01Giving someone who has earned something the chance,
0:14:01 > 0:14:07rather than someone who does not have one solitary vote.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09A party grandee endorsed the young pretender
0:14:09 > 0:14:12in the SDLP leadership contest.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14But the incumbent was still confident.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17Seamus is a very distinguished member of the party
0:14:17 > 0:14:19and he's entitled to his opinion.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23But we've some 300-odd other delegates out there with opinions.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32Chris Page looking back over the week,
0:14:32 > 0:14:35which included the appointment of Emma Pengelly.
0:14:35 > 0:14:38That appointment has highlighted the issue of co-option,
0:14:38 > 0:14:40the system where MLAs who leave their posts
0:14:40 > 0:14:43can be replaced by a party colleague without a by-election.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46But is that the best way to bring new blood to Stormont?
0:14:46 > 0:14:49With me is the independent MLA Claire Sugden
0:14:49 > 0:14:52and the former SDLP director of communications, Ruairi O'Kane.
0:14:52 > 0:14:54You're both welcome to the programme.
0:14:54 > 0:14:58Claire Sugden, you were co-opted to replace your former boss,
0:14:58 > 0:15:00David McClarty, the late MLA.
0:15:00 > 0:15:04Is the system the best option available to the Assembly?
0:15:04 > 0:15:06I think it's the best option available.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08Whether it's the most ideal option's another story.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11I wouldn't want to have been in this seat through co-option.
0:15:11 > 0:15:12I'd rather be elected.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15But I think it's given me now an opportunity
0:15:15 > 0:15:17to realise that I've been given this opportunity...
0:15:17 > 0:15:20It's a huge privilege for me and I know in this past year
0:15:20 > 0:15:23I've certainly been trying to earn it, and I'm still earning it.
0:15:23 > 0:15:24So, whilst, you know,
0:15:24 > 0:15:27we wouldn't have all chosen to have gotten our seats this way,
0:15:27 > 0:15:30it's the only system, I think, in a single transferable system.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33Is it the only option, in your view, Ruairi?
0:15:33 > 0:15:36I think, to be fair to the parties who are elected,
0:15:36 > 0:15:38it will be unfair, if they have a by-election,
0:15:38 > 0:15:41for a smaller party who can then lose out to a bigger one.
0:15:41 > 0:15:43But I think where the public do have an issue,
0:15:43 > 0:15:46the sheer volume of unelected MLAs we have at the minute.
0:15:46 > 0:15:49There's almost a fifth, and there's a couple of reasons for that.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52First, this Assembly has gone on a year longer than it was supposed to,
0:15:52 > 0:15:56so we've talked a lot about people who have only mandates for four years instead of five.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59And the second, the double jobbing has been phased out as well,
0:15:59 > 0:16:00so we've seen more.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02But we can perhaps tweak the system.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05If people are going to be elected, if they were to provide a list,
0:16:05 > 0:16:07and so people knew publicly
0:16:07 > 0:16:10that if someone was to step down during the next period of a mandate,
0:16:10 > 0:16:13they know who would be their substitute.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15We've had that before, except it was done privately.
0:16:15 > 0:16:16Parties had no control over it.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19You look at how they do it in Scotland with the list system.
0:16:19 > 0:16:20The SNPs, for example,
0:16:20 > 0:16:23have already published up to 12 candidates in each constituency.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25So, if you're in Glasgow
0:16:25 > 0:16:28and you don't get Nicola Sturgeon as your constituency MSP,
0:16:28 > 0:16:29you know she's coming as a list MSP.
0:16:29 > 0:16:30That might be a bit more open.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33At least people know then what they're getting.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35Take a constituency like South Belfast.
0:16:35 > 0:16:39Four of the six MLAs in South Belfast currently are co-optees.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41Anna Lo said she's not standing again.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43I don't know what's going to happen.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46But if she resigns and is replaced by another candidate before next May,
0:16:46 > 0:16:47which might or might not happen,
0:16:47 > 0:16:50that would mean five out of the six weren't elected.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53That's quite astonishing. It is quite astonishing.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55But we are coming towards the end of a mandate.
0:16:55 > 0:16:57If there are going to be new candidates put in place,
0:16:57 > 0:17:00it should happen with an election, which is less than six months away.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03I would certainly be disappointed if some candidates ran
0:17:03 > 0:17:05and then after the election they co-opted,
0:17:05 > 0:17:08because they've five years ahead of them, and that's not right.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10In situations where we've got less than a year,
0:17:10 > 0:17:12then perhaps this is an option.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15It is a difficult one and we would prefer it not to happen that way.
0:17:15 > 0:17:19But it is what it is in respect of single transferable voting.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21Yeah, I suppose the question, Ruairi, is,
0:17:21 > 0:17:23is there now a system which has developed
0:17:23 > 0:17:26of, effectively, party political patronage?
0:17:26 > 0:17:29We talked there about Emma Pengelly being brought in,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32a former special adviser, brought in as an MLA,
0:17:32 > 0:17:34now promoted to be a minister.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37There was quite a bit of movement within Sinn Fein
0:17:37 > 0:17:39when Mairtin O Muilleoir was drafted into South Belfast,
0:17:39 > 0:17:43that involved Alex Maskey moving from South Belfast to West Belfast.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45The system was never really designed for that.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47No, that's exactly right.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50I mean, the spirit of the law has perhaps been bent there.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53And I think that's when you look at each individual co-option.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55Most are for very legitimate reasons.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57But when you see a sort of stroke played
0:17:57 > 0:17:59like when Alex Maskey moved to West
0:17:59 > 0:18:01and Mairtin O Muilleoir went to South for electoral purposes,
0:18:01 > 0:18:04that's when people begin to raise their eyebrows.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07Emma Pengelly, as a new MLA, probably would have been better
0:18:07 > 0:18:09turning down the offer of being put into the junior ministry
0:18:09 > 0:18:11and spending more time in her constituency.
0:18:11 > 0:18:12I think what this does,
0:18:12 > 0:18:15it adds to a public kind of mood of disdain towards politics here,
0:18:15 > 0:18:16and that's not helping.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20To be clear, in both of those instances that we've talked about,
0:18:20 > 0:18:22nothing was done that was against the rules.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24No. Letter of the law, spirit of the law,
0:18:24 > 0:18:26are the two differences here,
0:18:26 > 0:18:29and I think when the public are turning their nose up at Stormont
0:18:29 > 0:18:31and seeing the dysfunctionality,
0:18:31 > 0:18:33it just adds to that sort of perception.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36I think the parties could perhaps play it a little bit smarter.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39As Claire rightly said, the system hasn't been abused that much.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41There's only two instances
0:18:41 > 0:18:43where people can say it's been controversial.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46But I think next year, when you have people running for election...
0:18:46 > 0:18:49If people aren't running for election and were to stand down now,
0:18:49 > 0:18:52and allow people six months in, I think that's different.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54But I think those who are in, such as Emma Pengelly,
0:18:54 > 0:18:56might have been better saying no to a ministry
0:18:56 > 0:18:58and getting into constituency work.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01It certainly is overwhelming, the level at which it's happening.
0:19:01 > 0:19:03We're now into double figures
0:19:03 > 0:19:07of people who've been co-opted in this mandate.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09But if you look at the current 108 MLAs,
0:19:09 > 0:19:12about a fifth of current members
0:19:12 > 0:19:15had their first taste of Stormont and through co-option,
0:19:15 > 0:19:16either this mandate,
0:19:16 > 0:19:20or in the previous mandate and then were subsequently elected.
0:19:20 > 0:19:22That is quite astonishing, isn't it?
0:19:22 > 0:19:24Yeah, it is quite a lot, but then I think
0:19:24 > 0:19:27it's one of the negatives of a single transferable vote system.
0:19:27 > 0:19:31I do think that when you're in this position, you have to earn it.
0:19:31 > 0:19:33Is one month an opportunity to earn it?
0:19:33 > 0:19:35I don't think so. It's taken me a year and I'm still earning it.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37I think we need to move forward
0:19:37 > 0:19:39and we need to look at people who are in the job
0:19:39 > 0:19:40and give them what they deserve.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42Yeah, but it's across the board.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45We've talked about Emma Pengelly because it's an interesting example,
0:19:45 > 0:19:47but it's not right to just single out the DUP
0:19:47 > 0:19:50or, indeed, Sinn Fein, because pretty much all of the parties
0:19:50 > 0:19:52have been involved in co-option.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55You're an independent, so it's affected independents as well.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58I agree, but the system itself is not necessarily wrong.
0:19:58 > 0:19:59It's the only option we have,
0:19:59 > 0:20:01but it is the parties who have chosen to abuse it
0:20:01 > 0:20:03and to maybe put forward their own arrogance
0:20:03 > 0:20:05and maybe put the party first
0:20:05 > 0:20:07instead of the people, and that's wrong.
0:20:07 > 0:20:09Hopefully, the people can decide that
0:20:09 > 0:20:11when we come to an election next May.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14You're a politician and you've worked with politicians a lot.
0:20:14 > 0:20:15Politicians will always do
0:20:15 > 0:20:18what politicians think is best for them, isn't that right?
0:20:18 > 0:20:19They'll work the system.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22I suppose what we do see is some parties use it differently.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24I know from my experience with the SDLP,
0:20:24 > 0:20:26when an opening arises, it's put to an internal vote,
0:20:26 > 0:20:29so there's an internal contest, where some others decide
0:20:29 > 0:20:32that they will bestow that sort of patronage on them.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35But I do think that if the parties were honest before an election
0:20:35 > 0:20:37and said, "Here's our candidates for the vote,
0:20:37 > 0:20:40"but should anything happen, here's a list of ten people
0:20:40 > 0:20:41"who may well take their place,"
0:20:41 > 0:20:43that might get round that sort of thing.
0:20:43 > 0:20:47Also, can you tell someone if they step down from one constituency during an Assembly,
0:20:47 > 0:20:49that's them barred from going into another?
0:20:49 > 0:20:53That would stop the switching or the boomerang representatives who've come back in.
0:20:53 > 0:20:55Would you support those ideas?
0:20:55 > 0:20:57Yeah, sure, I know when David put forward my name,
0:20:57 > 0:21:00he did it shortly after he was elected in 2011,
0:21:00 > 0:21:02and I myself, when I was co-opted.
0:21:02 > 0:21:04If you want to get a freedom of information,
0:21:04 > 0:21:06you'll see whose names are on those lists.
0:21:06 > 0:21:07I'd have no issue with that.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10But that's something you have opted to do, you are not required to do.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14No, I'm not required. I could have left that list blank.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17Is that equally as fair? No, because in my own constituency,
0:21:17 > 0:21:20we'd have got a candidate that would have never got into that position
0:21:20 > 0:21:22had it been run through the transferable system.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25It's trying to weigh up what's best for the people I represent.
0:21:25 > 0:21:28It's complicated, there's no doubt about that. It is.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31Let's just have a final word from Allison and Pete.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34What do you make of it? There's no easy answer, really.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37A lot of people feel uncomfortable about elements of this,
0:21:37 > 0:21:38but it's hard to fix it.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41The co-option itself I don't think is the controversial thing,
0:21:41 > 0:21:43especially as we are coming up to an election
0:21:43 > 0:21:46and Emma Pengelly will have to be tested, you know,
0:21:46 > 0:21:48by the electorate when we do come to an election next year.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51I think the controversial aspect of that appointment
0:21:51 > 0:21:54was her rapid rise through the ranks to junior minister,
0:21:54 > 0:21:57and I think that's when eyebrows were raised.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59I agree, she probably would have been wiser to turn that down
0:21:59 > 0:22:02and maybe do some work in her constituency...
0:22:02 > 0:22:04She's ambitious, she wants to be a minister.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07Who doesn't want to be a minister, if you get involved in politics?
0:22:07 > 0:22:08She is, and I think the reason...
0:22:08 > 0:22:12You know, people, the cynics, would say it's Peter Robinson,
0:22:12 > 0:22:14who's under fire from within his own party,
0:22:14 > 0:22:17and people who are loyal to him in positions of authority
0:22:17 > 0:22:19to watch his back, as it was.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21OK, well, that's one interpretation.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24I'm not sure if necessarily those in the DUP would agree.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26Pete, what do you make of it?
0:22:26 > 0:22:29Let's get back to the issue of co-option in the first place. Is there a better way of doing it?
0:22:29 > 0:22:32The Belfast Agreement, which created the Assembly,
0:22:32 > 0:22:34created something which was coming out of conflict.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36It created all these checks and balances
0:22:36 > 0:22:39which were there to create some stability.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41Didn't work, given the fact it's fallen so many times
0:22:41 > 0:22:44and the nature of the talks we're having at present.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47But the idea was to protect the institution in some ways.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50I think after the next election, we have to have a radical overhaul
0:22:50 > 0:22:52of what the Assembly is and how it operates.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55It needs to start functioning in a much more normal pattern and style.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59In a sentence, are we going to see a resolution to the talks issue this week?
0:22:59 > 0:23:03We were told that we had a two-week deadline before doomsday
0:23:03 > 0:23:04and we went to direct rule.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07They've been very quiet as to what sort of agreement has been reached.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09I doubt very much it's going to be this week.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12I'd say we're going to have to extend that deadline somewhat.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15You agree? It's so quiet, they're getting on with each other.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18Therefore, there must be something coming out of the pipeline somewhere.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22You're suspicious? OK, all right. Interesting to hear your thoughts.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24Thanks both very much. Thanks to my other guests.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26That's it from Sunday Politics for this week.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29Stormont Today is back tomorrow after the mid-term break.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31That's on BBC Two at 11.15.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34For now, from everyone in the team, thanks for watching. Bye-bye.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15There's an extra special line-up on Nolan Live this week.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17We'll be linking up with RTE to bring you debates
0:24:17 > 0:24:20from studios in Belfast and Dublin.
0:24:20 > 0:24:23And revealing the results of our cross-border survey
0:24:23 > 0:24:25on a range of political and social issues.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28Join me in Belfast. Join me, Miriam O'Callaghan, in Dublin.