:00:00. > :00:00.You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20
:00:00. > :00:13.minutes, we will have more Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics
:00:14. > :00:16.in Northern Ireland. As the results of the unregulated transfer tests
:00:17. > :00:19.are published, we ask is there any prospect of political agreement on
:00:20. > :00:31.how children move from primary to secondary education? I think by
:00:32. > :00:36.changing they have made it a more complicated and more stressful for
:00:37. > :00:41.children. It is too much pressure on them. Parents are getting themselves
:00:42. > :00:44.worked up about it and I see the children getting worked up. Also,
:00:45. > :00:48.the Shankill's secret republican link to the Spanish Civil War. What
:00:49. > :00:51.other surprises has our history got in store as the big centenaries
:00:52. > :00:54.loom? And with me throughout, with their thoughts, the commentator,
:00:55. > :01:04.Patricia McBride, and the newspaper editor, Jim Flanagan... Yesterday
:01:05. > :01:07.was a red letter day for thousands of Primary 7 children in Northern
:01:08. > :01:10.Ireland as the results of the transfer tests were published. It's
:01:11. > :01:13.the fifth year of the unregulated transfer procedure and an agreed
:01:14. > :01:17.transfer mechanism seems as far off as ever. Meanwhile, the BBC has
:01:18. > :01:20.learned that the parents of Primary 6 pupils will receive a leaflet
:01:21. > :01:24.advising them to report any school that's preparing children for the
:01:25. > :01:27.tests. With me now are the DUP's Mervyn Storey, who chairs Stormont's
:01:28. > :01:34.Education Committee, and Sinn Fein's Chris Hazzard, who sits on the
:01:35. > :01:45.committee... Welcome to the programme. How concerned are you at
:01:46. > :01:51.this latest turn of events with this publication that Primary 6 pupils
:01:52. > :01:56.are getting repaired? The Department and the Minister or not facing up to
:01:57. > :02:00.realities and using the circumstances of the situation to
:02:01. > :02:06.create more uncertainty and more concerned. The facts are simple. The
:02:07. > :02:10.majority of parents still choosing to have an unregulated system. It is
:02:11. > :02:17.not ideal and there needs to be an agreement as to how we move forward,
:02:18. > :02:20.but in the absence of their being an agreed position, organisations have
:02:21. > :02:25.stepped into the frame and provided a process whereby the transition
:02:26. > :02:29.from primary to post primary can still continue to be based on
:02:30. > :02:35.academic assessment and I think that we need to have that as a debate. If
:02:36. > :02:39.we look at what happened in England when they allegedly moved away from
:02:40. > :02:45.transfer, it ended up becoming a system that was based on social
:02:46. > :02:49.issues, the price of houses, how wealthy your parents were, as
:02:50. > :02:57.opposed to the real core issue which is about ensuring transfers on the
:02:58. > :03:03.basis of educational merit. I want to talk to you about this booklet.
:03:04. > :03:06.Chris Hazzard. This booklet that the department's sending out to parents
:03:07. > :03:12.is an attempt to 'up the ante', presumably? I did not think so. They
:03:13. > :03:17.are guidelines which have been set down for transfer. We have a
:03:18. > :03:21.situation where there is a common curriculum. Every school teaches the
:03:22. > :03:25.exact same curriculum. You could have a selective grammar school
:03:26. > :03:32.teaching its children one curriculum and across the road they are doing
:03:33. > :03:37.exactly the same thing. We have the same curriculum, there is no need to
:03:38. > :03:42.go through the transfer process. Some pupils may choose one school
:03:43. > :03:49.over another and you have to find a way of determining which killed a go
:03:50. > :03:54.too. Because a parent is forced to put their child through an exam, it
:03:55. > :04:05.is not the same as indoor CNET. I think the leaders of the schools
:04:06. > :04:08.have to face the music. They need to explain the rationale for selective
:04:09. > :04:14.tests. We have the common curriculum, there is no need for
:04:15. > :04:22.selection. What is the reason? We have lots of grammar schools which
:04:23. > :04:29.are effectively comprehensives -- comprehensives. It is called
:04:30. > :04:40.parental choice. It is not lots of grammar schools, it is a small
:04:41. > :04:43.number. Parents were told by the then Education Minister that going
:04:44. > :04:49.down this road would be a legal minefield. She was wrong and she
:04:50. > :04:54.ended up in court. Parents make choices. Those choices are about
:04:55. > :04:57.ensuring that they have the ability and the right to choose a school
:04:58. > :05:07.which they believe is appropriate for their child. Do I believe that
:05:08. > :05:13.it is grammar schools that are given a good education? That is not the
:05:14. > :05:19.case. That is what it looks like to a lot of people. It is about
:05:20. > :05:23.parental choice. Parents choose to have their children educated in
:05:24. > :05:30.Catholic schools, that is their choice. This is not a sectarian
:05:31. > :05:34.debate. The Catholic bishops have failed miserably to convince the
:05:35. > :05:42.majority of Catholic grammar schools to move away from using academic
:05:43. > :05:49.criteria. What is wrong with parental choice? It is not about
:05:50. > :05:55.parental choice. He has demonstrated the complete failure of unionism to
:05:56. > :06:03.tackle this. They have failed to name one benefit to this exam. There
:06:04. > :06:06.are none. These schools, they cannot name one single educational
:06:07. > :06:12.benefit. We have three Executive parties who are opposed to this.
:06:13. > :06:17.This is not the Sinn Fein ideal. We have the trade union movement
:06:18. > :06:22.opposed, we have the OECD and a growing number of Protestant
:06:23. > :06:29.elements speaking against this. The Catholic bishops have said they are
:06:30. > :06:33.opposed to selection. The Catholic principals are still in this. They
:06:34. > :06:39.are calling for a harder line to implement this. In the meantime, the
:06:40. > :06:43.principles of many Catholic grammar schools are not heeding what the
:06:44. > :06:48.bishops say is the policy of the Catholic Church. They have to stand
:06:49. > :07:02.up and say that this is the Russell Mall. They are failing to do that.
:07:03. > :07:07.-- rationale. Why would you deny the privilege that you have to other
:07:08. > :07:12.parents? You said it was elitism. You were able to value and benefit
:07:13. > :07:16.as a result of having that education, but now you take the
:07:17. > :07:23.position that somehow it is unfair for other parents and other young
:07:24. > :07:30.people to have that. You said it is not about choosing the school, you
:07:31. > :07:37.are making the argument for grammar schools. We get into the position
:07:38. > :07:42.that there is a contradiction in that it is wrong to select according
:07:43. > :07:48.to Chris and others children at 11 on the basis of the test, but when
:07:49. > :07:52.it comes, the same cue ball and they are 16, the test that we set for
:07:53. > :07:57.that child and the test we set for the school is that the school must
:07:58. > :08:03.have five GCSEs at the top grade and if they do not attain that, Chris's
:08:04. > :08:10.Minister sends in the Inspectorate on the basis and that school is
:08:11. > :08:15.deemed to be a failure. If it is a common curriculum, name one benefit
:08:16. > :08:20.of attending a grammar school over a secondary school, where the teaching
:08:21. > :08:25.of the same subjects is the same, why should we continue to have
:08:26. > :08:32.grammar schools? Parents have the right to make that choice. Wider
:08:33. > :08:41.they want to choose that? -- why do they want. I had a different
:08:42. > :08:48.provision in my area. My daughter was given in one school of very good
:08:49. > :08:57.opportunity. I believe that was right that I have that opportunity.
:08:58. > :09:01.Was it a gender issue? It can be. We are going to have grammar schools in
:09:02. > :09:06.the future, they will not go away. We need to have a discussion around
:09:07. > :09:11.how we make the transition from primary to post primary as seamless
:09:12. > :09:22.as possible. Do you accept that grammar schools will not go away? I
:09:23. > :09:26.accept that. I went to a grammar school. The question is about
:09:27. > :09:33.admittance. I want all children to have the chance to go to a grammar
:09:34. > :09:39.school, not a select school. Here is a question, what is a grammar school
:09:40. > :09:48.in 2014 when the teacher exactly the same curriculum as other schools? --
:09:49. > :09:51.when they teach. We make a fallacy that we believe that all our
:09:52. > :10:02.children are identical, they are different. It is a one size fits all
:10:03. > :10:07.tests. GCSEs are the same. There are young people who will not attain the
:10:08. > :10:11.top grades, but yet they will be successful in a school which is best
:10:12. > :10:21.suited to meet their educational needs. Thank you. Thank you both.
:10:22. > :10:24.And joining us to discuss that are the editor of the Ballymena
:10:25. > :10:31.Guardian, Jim Flanagan, and the commentator, Patricia MacBride.
:10:32. > :10:38.There is no great meeting of minds. What do you think the way forward
:10:39. > :10:41.needs to be? The grammar schools have done a fabulous public
:10:42. > :10:44.relations job by creating this scenario that the children are going
:10:45. > :10:50.to get a better education because they go to a grammar school, when in
:10:51. > :10:54.reality they will learn the same curriculum as at a mentor named
:10:55. > :10:59.school. The issue around the transfer test, what we are doing
:11:00. > :11:07.with children, we are not selecting them, we are teaching them how to do
:11:08. > :11:15.a test -- maintained school. It is not a true measure of their academic
:11:16. > :11:21.ability. I am a fan of completely integrated education. Integrating in
:11:22. > :11:30.terms of children of all faiths. We are a long way from that. That is
:11:31. > :11:34.real life. That is what we need to prepare people for. The life they
:11:35. > :11:41.will face when they go out into the workplace, when they meet people
:11:42. > :11:46.from all faiths and of all levels of intelligence. Let us truly integrate
:11:47. > :11:53.that. There is political paralysis over this. Parents are exasperated.
:11:54. > :11:58.They would like our politicians to sort this out. Parents vote with
:11:59. > :12:03.their feet and you cannot get away from the fact that by and large,
:12:04. > :12:06.academic testing exists because there is support for it. If they did
:12:07. > :12:14.not want their children to do it, they would not be there. All we get
:12:15. > :12:18.is an agreement to disagree. All sides in this debate seem wedded to
:12:19. > :12:27.their positions. We are not going anywhere. Next year, every child
:12:28. > :12:32.doing GCSEs will set the unregulated tests. We have a whole generation of
:12:33. > :12:42.children at the grammar school and doing that, . We have talked about
:12:43. > :12:46.the problems, what needs to happen to move us forward so there is some
:12:47. > :12:53.kind of political agreement on where we go from here? We now have a
:12:54. > :12:57.document and advising parents on the processes. We see thousands of
:12:58. > :13:02.children transferring from primary to post primary without the stress
:13:03. > :13:10.of a test. We need to see those small minority of schools who
:13:11. > :13:14.implement this test to tell us why. They educate 43% of the school
:13:15. > :13:18.population. They have to be taken into the equation. We need a proper
:13:19. > :13:22.discussion with the threats are removed, such as the guidance from
:13:23. > :13:26.the department where people can have a discussion about the seamless
:13:27. > :13:32.transition based on educational values, not on political ideology.
:13:33. > :13:42.It will be intriguing to see how things unfold. Thank you both for
:13:43. > :13:45.now. In a moment, the connection between Belfast's Shankill Road and
:13:46. > :13:48.the Spanish Civil War, but first, a look back at the politics of the
:13:49. > :13:54.last week in sixty seconds, with Gareth Gordon... The row over the
:13:55. > :13:59.appointment of a new chief constable rumbles on with the Justice Minister
:14:00. > :14:03.sensing a plot. It looks like it is more to do with the party that the
:14:04. > :14:10.Minister comes from and the significance of the decision. They
:14:11. > :14:14.have it in from the Alliance Party? You could believe this. He opened a
:14:15. > :14:20.door that should have been kept closed. Once he opened that door a
:14:21. > :14:25.little bit, then the DUP and Sinn Fein came charging through. A fiery
:14:26. > :14:32.Stormont committee, an academic and the DUP fell out over an e-mail.
:14:33. > :14:36.Your opposition to this clause is more because of your prejudices
:14:37. > :14:41.against the DUP. It is nothing of the sort. At the play they could not
:14:42. > :14:49.ban, it proves there is no such thing as bad publicity. Because of
:14:50. > :14:52.this, we sold out. I do not like being told what I can go to and what
:14:53. > :15:03.I cannot go to. Garth Gordon reporting. Yesterday in the loyalist
:15:04. > :15:07.heartland of Belfast's Shankill Road, a plaque was unveiled in
:15:08. > :15:09.honour of seven men from the area who fought for the International
:15:10. > :15:12.Brigade against fascism in the Spanish Civil War. While it's well
:15:13. > :15:15.known that men from nationalist areas of the city volunteered to
:15:16. > :15:19.travel to Spain and confront Franco's forces, the story of these
:15:20. > :15:22.men has gone largely untold. As we enter a period when centenaries of
:15:23. > :15:26.major events like the outbreak of the First World War, the Easter
:15:27. > :15:29.Rising and the Somme will be marked, could we discover more surprises
:15:30. > :15:31.about our divided past? Joining me now is the community worker Jackie
:15:32. > :15:35.Redpath who was at yesterday's ceremony on the Shankill, and the
:15:36. > :15:43.historian Eamon Phoenix... Thank you for joining us. Jackie, what impact
:15:44. > :15:49.has this story, which has apparently been hidden, had on the Shankill? It
:15:50. > :15:55.has not been known. It is beginning to come out. It is having a
:15:56. > :16:00.significant impact. The Shankill seven as they are now being called,
:16:01. > :16:05.their names were not known, apart from Harry McGrath because he has
:16:06. > :16:10.two nephews still living in the area. As a result, the International
:16:11. > :16:16.Brigades Commemoration Committee have uncovered the other six people.
:16:17. > :16:22.It has struck a chord with people. The library in the Shankill was
:16:23. > :16:29.packed. These men stepped up to the mark and went out. I called them the
:16:30. > :16:33.few who went out to fight fascism. They were followed by the many in
:16:34. > :16:38.the Second World War. It is important that we recognise them.
:16:39. > :16:43.Whether they were head and we did not know about it, it does not
:16:44. > :16:51.matter, the point is, this was a surprise to you. I knew men from
:16:52. > :16:59.both traditions had fought in the Spanish Civil War. The Protestant
:17:00. > :17:04.rector in the area was killed, other men from County Tyrone and the Falls
:17:05. > :17:10.Road as well. People are recovering radical elements of the past. This
:17:11. > :17:17.was very important. This was when fascism corrupted and it all opposed
:17:18. > :17:21.democracy in Spain. Those men from Britain and America joined the
:17:22. > :17:26.International Brigades and fought against fascism. It is important it
:17:27. > :17:30.is remembered. People from a national background would have been
:17:31. > :17:34.known to have fought for the International Brigades, but it is
:17:35. > :17:40.worth making the point that there were Irish men fighting for Franco.
:17:41. > :17:50.Socialists and republicans fought against Franco. You had about 500
:17:51. > :17:56.men who went to fight for what they thought was a Catholic Crusade. They
:17:57. > :18:00.did not last long. These men are being remembered. It recalls along
:18:01. > :18:08.Protestant socialist tradition in working-class parts of Belfast until
:18:09. > :18:17.the troubles. -- Troubles. That is an interesting point. We need to
:18:18. > :18:21.recognise our history. It is important we do that. There has
:18:22. > :18:26.always been that radical tradition in east Belfast and the Shankill
:18:27. > :18:30.because it is about issues like you were talking about earlier, about
:18:31. > :18:35.families. That is what concerns people. It is important that we
:18:36. > :18:41.recognise the past, but more important that we learn from it.
:18:42. > :18:47.What about the challenge of the other centenary is? That will be a
:18:48. > :18:51.big issue. You are on the advisory panel for the Taoiseach. We have got
:18:52. > :18:58.the Easter Rising, the Somme, plenty of room for controversy. This has
:18:59. > :19:01.been handled well by community relations and local community
:19:02. > :19:09.groups. We had a great series of lectures in Belfast remembering the
:19:10. > :19:14.past. They have brought in principles which are being reflected
:19:15. > :19:19.across the country in local events, drama has been introduced, a play on
:19:20. > :19:26.the Somme. Sticking to the facts, looking at various perspectives and
:19:27. > :19:30.there are surprises. We have the East Belfast loyalist who witnessed
:19:31. > :19:36.the Easter Rising and kept a Gary. Things like this are cropping up.
:19:37. > :19:44.They open them up to both communities -- kept a diary.
:19:45. > :19:53.Centenary is have already taken place. -- centenary is. 30,000
:19:54. > :20:00.people, 10,000 people involved. These have been done well. I do not
:20:01. > :20:06.see why that cannot be repeated. In the last few months, the UVF and the
:20:07. > :20:11.Irish volunteers have been working together. That can happen. The
:20:12. > :20:18.important thing is to remember, but learn. Jackie Redpath and Eamon
:20:19. > :20:21.Phoenix thank you. Let's hear the final thoughts of my guests of the
:20:22. > :20:29.day - Patricia McBride and Jim Flanagan... You have spent a lot of
:20:30. > :20:34.time thinking about the past and how we deal with it. What was your view
:20:35. > :20:41.of the commemoration on the Shankill yesterday? There was a very worthy
:20:42. > :20:45.acknowledgement of the sacrifice of citizens of the Shankill community
:20:46. > :20:53.who fought against fascism. Were I would like to see that go is to
:20:54. > :20:58.perhaps look at that definition of republicanism. These were men who
:20:59. > :21:02.fought on the republican side in the Spanish Civil War. It creates a
:21:03. > :21:07.space to debate the nature of republicanism outside of an Irish
:21:08. > :21:10.context. That could be something about learning from the past. We
:21:11. > :21:15.look at the nature of what that means and how it has impacted on
:21:16. > :21:20.communities, so it is a wider debate. Moving forward over the next
:21:21. > :21:23.ten years or so, as we look at the nature of what that means and how it
:21:24. > :21:26.has impacted on communities, so it is a wider debate. Moving forward
:21:27. > :21:28.over the next ten years or so, as the market these events, we have
:21:29. > :21:34.this opportunity to re-examine the history of the past in a
:21:35. > :21:40.multidimensional way. Is this an interesting and important
:21:41. > :21:47.contribution? The common to nominate is respect for the past. We need to
:21:48. > :21:50.learn from our past. It takes an independently minded person to go
:21:51. > :21:56.against what is perceived as the norm and fight for the other side,
:21:57. > :22:01.as people would see it. Sometimes it is at great personal cost for
:22:02. > :22:06.people. I think the key point is that we learn from the past and so
:22:07. > :22:13.far, the commemorations have been held in a respectful fashion. I want
:22:14. > :22:20.to touch on one thing. It is relevant. We had George Chittick
:22:21. > :22:24.saying yesterday a word of warning to Protestants who go to learn
:22:25. > :22:30.Irish, it is part of the republican agenda, that does not tie in with
:22:31. > :22:34.what you were talking about. I think that he might need to re-examine the
:22:35. > :22:39.history of his own organisation and look more deeply into the use of the
:22:40. > :22:45.Irish language by his predecessor and continuing use on banners. What
:22:46. > :22:52.do you think? Certain people did raise their eyebrows over those
:22:53. > :22:58.remarks. There are banners with Irish on them. He needs to go and
:22:59. > :23:01.put a bit of context to the whole thing. Thank you. That is it from
:23:02. > :23:03.ours. Back to Not a complete denial! Hopefully a
:23:04. > :23:19.Conservative mayor again. Not a good week for David Cameron on
:23:20. > :23:24.the tricky European front last week. President Hollande said he was not
:23:25. > :23:27.interested in major treaty reform for 2017. That is when Mr Cameron
:23:28. > :23:31.hopes to hold his in-out referendum. And the private member's bill to put
:23:32. > :23:36.that referendum on the statute bill was killed by Labour and Lib Dem
:23:37. > :23:43.peers in the Lords. James Wharton was the Tory MP behind the bill, and
:23:44. > :23:48.he joins me now. What happens now? It is out of my hands what happens
:23:49. > :23:52.now, because Labour and the Liberal Democrats conspired in the Lords to
:23:53. > :23:55.kill off my bill. One of the options is for another private member to
:23:56. > :23:59.bring a bill forward when they have the next private member's bill at,
:24:00. > :24:03.and we can try again. The prime minister has indicated that he will
:24:04. > :24:10.support that. But whatever happens, it will be in the Conservative
:24:11. > :24:14.manifesto at the next election. Do you accept that cost this is Tory
:24:15. > :24:18.policy and not government policy that the government policy elite
:24:19. > :24:24.macro cannot bring forward a bill? That is the problem. The Liberal
:24:25. > :24:27.Democrats, despite having promised a referendum in their manifesto at the
:24:28. > :24:32.last election, now will not allow government time for a bill to
:24:33. > :24:35.enshrine that in law. That was why I brought it forward as a private
:24:36. > :24:38.member's bill. David Cameron and the Conservative Party through
:24:39. > :24:42.everything behind that. To many people's surprise, we got it through
:24:43. > :24:46.all the House of Commons stages. Sadly, to their discredit, Labour
:24:47. > :24:51.and Liberal Democrat peers, doing the bidding of their masters in the
:24:52. > :24:56.Commons, is conspired to kill it. Do you accept that it is Conservative
:24:57. > :24:59.policy, but not government policy, that you could not use the
:25:00. > :25:03.Parliament act to get this through the Lords? That is not the case. The
:25:04. > :25:07.Parliament act is clear that if a public bill passes through the House
:25:08. > :25:12.of Commons twice in one Parliamentary period, there is a
:25:13. > :25:15.certain amount of time that has to be between both bills being
:25:16. > :25:19.presented. There are some procedural steps to be overcome, but there is
:25:20. > :25:23.no legal reason why the Parliament act could not come into effect. I
:25:24. > :25:29.was talking about you not having a majority in this case. That remains
:25:30. > :25:32.to be seen. We saw previously that Labour and the Liberal Democrats
:25:33. > :25:37.sent enough people to frustrate its progress to make it as difficult as
:25:38. > :25:42.possible, but not huge numbers to vote against it. On a Friday, huge
:25:43. > :25:47.numbers of MPs do not attend normally. Getting that number might
:25:48. > :25:52.prove difficult. The Parliament act, which is a bit of an atomic bomb in
:25:53. > :25:56.constitutional terms, if that was used, they would turn up to vote
:25:57. > :26:02.against you. Is it not the case that after the countryside Alliance tried
:26:03. > :26:07.to involve the courts in the hunting ban that it was made clear that the
:26:08. > :26:13.Parliament act was not to be used for constitutional issues? I don't
:26:14. > :26:17.think we know how many would turn up and we don't know how they would
:26:18. > :26:20.vote. One of the things that has been revealed as I have gone through
:26:21. > :26:25.the process of getting this bill to get a referendum through the Commons
:26:26. > :26:28.is that there are big splits in the Labour Party. One of the reasons we
:26:29. > :26:32.did not see them turning up in large numbers to stop this bill from
:26:33. > :26:35.happening was that Ed Miliband knew that if he tried to lead his own MPs
:26:36. > :26:40.through the lobbies to block a bill, the only purpose of which is
:26:41. > :26:45.to let Britain decides to give people a say on membership of the
:26:46. > :26:48.union, a lot of his MPs may not have followed him. It is all fantasy
:26:49. > :26:53.politics anyway. The French president has made clear that he has
:26:54. > :27:00.no interest in treaty change this side of 2017. He would need a
:27:01. > :27:05.referendum as well . And he needs that like a hole and had. Merkel is
:27:06. > :27:08.not keen, as she is in coalition with the social Democrats. Without
:27:09. > :27:15.the French or the Germans, it will not happen, end of story. The policy
:27:16. > :27:19.is that we will try to negotiate on getting a better deal. I hear what
:27:20. > :27:23.you are saying, but I don't recognise it as reality. We have a
:27:24. > :27:26.strong bargaining position. But whatever the result of that
:27:27. > :27:31.negotiation, it will be put in an in-out vote to the Britain people.
:27:32. > :27:36.It is time people were allowed to decide. It has been over a
:27:37. > :27:39.generation since we last had a say. David Cameron has committed to
:27:40. > :27:42.delivering that referendum. The Conservative Party will have it in
:27:43. > :27:47.our next manifesto for the election. Whatever happens to my bill or any
:27:48. > :27:50.other of the bill that comes forward. If people want a
:27:51. > :27:57.referendum, the only party that can deliver that in British politics is
:27:58. > :28:02.the Conservatives. Let me bring the panel in. Nick, where is this going?
:28:03. > :28:05.It is clear to me and anyone who follows European politics that there
:28:06. > :28:08.is no appetite for major treaty change in the short run,
:28:09. > :28:14.particularly for the kind of major changes that Vista Cameron says he
:28:15. > :28:18.is going to get, and yet the Tories are talking about Europe again when
:28:19. > :28:21.they should be talking about the economy. And Francois Hollande is
:28:22. > :28:25.looking at 2017, the year we are meant to have this referendum. There
:28:26. > :28:29.will be a French presidential election going on, and Nicolas
:28:30. > :28:36.Sarkozy will be back in play by then. But James has an interesting
:28:37. > :28:41.point, which is that it is down to Angela Merkel. She would be more
:28:42. > :28:45.receptive to David Cameron's ideas of reform than people assume. She
:28:46. > :28:49.has looked over the edge at a Europe without the UK and said, that is not
:28:50. > :28:54.acceptable, and I am willing to pay a price, not any price, but a price
:28:55. > :28:59.to keep the UK in the European Union. And the French, because the
:29:00. > :29:03.UK and France are the only serious military powers in Europe, will
:29:04. > :29:08.eventually come to that position. So there is more support for David
:29:09. > :29:12.Cameron than people assume. The French are also not a strong
:29:13. > :29:21.position in terms of the euro and French economy. The Foreign Office
:29:22. > :29:31.seem a bit more optimistic about it. Of course they are. Douglas Hurd
:29:32. > :29:33.once told me, we are winning the arguments on the single currency. Of
:29:34. > :29:38.course anything from the Foreign Office comes with a health warning,
:29:39. > :29:41.but if David Cameron had won a majority and was determined to
:29:42. > :29:47.renegotiate, he is in a strong position with Merkel. There is a
:29:48. > :29:50.possibility that the French could eventually be talked around. So it
:29:51. > :29:56.is not entirely bleak on that front for Cameron. When do the Tory party
:29:57. > :30:02.managers say, look, stop banging on about Europe again? The economy is
:30:03. > :30:06.going away. We still have an electoral mountain to climb. Let's
:30:07. > :30:10.just talk about that and not be divided. They should have done that
:30:11. > :30:17.some time ago. It is already too late. The Tories need a seven point
:30:18. > :30:22.lead in the polls to get image are tea. The way things are, that would
:30:23. > :30:26.require a huge change from where we are now . It is very unlikely to
:30:27. > :30:34.happen. So all this is happening in some bizarre imaginary space with
:30:35. > :30:40.wonderful rainbows and sunshine. But we can detect the beginnings of a
:30:41. > :30:45.shift in the last couple of weeks. If you talk to Tory backbenchers,
:30:46. > :30:50.Douglas Carswell is now saying in public that it is time to stop the
:30:51. > :30:57.fighting. If they are to get even close to winning the election, they
:30:58. > :31:03.can't do it if they are all against each other. I don't think it is an
:31:04. > :31:07.imaginary space. It is likely that David Cameron will have the largest
:31:08. > :31:10.party in the election. If it is a hung parliament and it is the
:31:11. > :31:14.Liberal Democrats and the Conservative Party, David Cameron
:31:15. > :31:18.will save to Nick Clegg we gave you an AV referendum, I am having this
:31:19. > :31:24.referendum. And it will be difficult for Nick to say no. Let me go back
:31:25. > :31:28.to Mr Wharton. You are going to get a referendum in the manifesto. Other
:31:29. > :31:33.than Ken Clarke, everybody wants it. So why don't you just banked that
:31:34. > :31:38.and get behind the leadership Institute causing endless problems
:31:39. > :31:42.and coming across as a Europe accessed, divided party? I am
:31:43. > :31:47.absolutely behind the leadership. David Cameron announced the policy I
:31:48. > :31:52.am trying to bring forward in this bill. It is in line with the speech
:31:53. > :31:58.he gave this time last year. But getting that commitment into law
:31:59. > :32:05.will help to kick-start the negotiation process and mean
:32:06. > :32:07.everyone will know where we stand. But whatever happens, the
:32:08. > :32:11.Conservatives are committed to delivering a referendum. And to
:32:12. > :32:15.address the point that we talk about Europe too much, that is not the
:32:16. > :32:21.case. We have a good message on the economy, on tackling immigration and
:32:22. > :32:28.reforming welfare. There is more to do, but this is also an important
:32:29. > :32:33.part of policy. But at a time when the economic news seems to be
:32:34. > :32:37.turning in your direction, you are talking about the European
:32:38. > :32:41.referendum. Your backbench colleagues are trying to change the
:32:42. > :32:45.Immigration Bill every which way. Dominic Rather is putting in an
:32:46. > :32:51.amendment is and Mr Nigel Mills has been on this programme, putting in
:32:52. > :32:55.amendments that are clearly illegal. How is that helpful? The fact is
:32:56. > :32:58.that we are in a coalition, so there are areas of policy where
:32:59. > :33:05.Conservatives might want to go further and we are not able to do
:33:06. > :33:07.that. In other areas, we are delivering good reforms. But this is
:33:08. > :33:15.not a matter of going further. The mill 's amendment was clearly a
:33:16. > :33:19.contravention of the Treaty of Rome. That is where you get the headlines
:33:20. > :33:24.from. Some of your colleagues have a death wish? Would they rather have a
:33:25. > :33:29.Miliband government if the choice is an impure Cameron one instead? I
:33:30. > :33:33.don't think anyone in their right mind would rather have a Miliband
:33:34. > :33:38.government. Then why are they behaving that way? We have had some
:33:39. > :33:44.disagreements into the leak and debate within the party, but it was
:33:45. > :33:47.talked about on the panel just now. The Conservative Party is behind
:33:48. > :33:52.David Cameron and focused on winning the next election. Europe is one
:33:53. > :33:53.part of that. We have policies in a range of areas, but we are getting
:33:54. > :33:58.back on range of areas, but we are getting
:33:59. > :34:04.back on the right track. Thank you for being patient with us.
:34:05. > :34:08.Is this ghost story going to go somewhere? Mr Laws is talking
:34:09. > :34:14.through surrogates at the moment, but there is a strategy by the Lib
:34:15. > :34:21.Dems make these differential points now. I think it is fantastic
:34:22. > :34:25.coalition sports and entertaining, but in terms of out there, it has
:34:26. > :34:30.almost no traction whatsoever. I don't think any voters know who
:34:31. > :34:32.Baroness Morgan is and it sounds like one but politicians shouting at
:34:33. > :34:37.another bunch of politicians about their ability to give each other
:34:38. > :34:42.jobs. There is a larger point about the way Michael Gove runs his
:34:43. > :34:46.government. He is notoriously a very polite man surrounded by Rottweiler
:34:47. > :34:49.is, his advisers. He has made enemies of a lot of people in the
:34:50. > :34:54.media, and some of that will come back on him in the next 18 months.
:34:55. > :34:58.We shall see if Mr Laws himself sticks his head above the parapet.
:34:59. > :35:03.That is it for this week. The Daily Politics is on throughout the week
:35:04. > :35:07.at midday on BBC Two, except on Wednesdays, when we are on at
:35:08. > :35:10.11:30am. I will be back next week at the same time. Remember, if it is
:35:11. > :35:17.Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.