:00:37. > :00:40.Morning folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:41. > :00:43.Fears that Ukraine could face invasion escalate this morning as
:00:44. > :00:47.Russian forces take control of Crimea. President Obama and his
:00:48. > :00:52.European allies tell President Putin to back off. It doesn't sound like
:00:53. > :00:54.he's listening. Shadow Education Secretary Tristram
:00:55. > :00:59.Hunt has started spelling out Labour's plans for schools. So
:01:00. > :01:05.what's the verdict - full marks, or must try harder? He joins us for the
:01:06. > :01:08.Sunday Interview. And all the big political parties
:01:09. > :01:09.are desperate to broaden their appeal. We'll look at some
:01:10. > :01:30.changes. And tightening household finances.
:01:31. > :01:34.And with me, as always, three journalists who'd make a clean sweep
:01:35. > :01:39.if they were handing out Oscars for political punditry in LA tonight.
:01:40. > :01:44.But just like poor old Leonardo DiCaprio they've never won so much
:01:45. > :01:47.as a Blue Peter badge! Yes, it's Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan
:01:48. > :01:49.Ganesh. Instead of acceptance speeches they'll be tweeting faster
:01:50. > :01:56.than the tears roll down Gwyneth Paltrow's face. Yes, that's as
:01:57. > :02:00.luvvie as we get on this show. Events have been moving quickly in
:02:01. > :02:03.Ukraine this weekend. The interim government in Kiev has put the
:02:04. > :02:05.Ukrainian military on full combat alert after Russia's parliament
:02:06. > :02:10.rubber-stamped the deployment of Russian troops anywhere in Ukraine.
:02:11. > :02:12.Russian troops seem already to be in control of the mainly
:02:13. > :02:16.Russian-speaking Crimea region, where Russia has a massive naval
:02:17. > :02:19.base. President Obama told President Putin that Russia has flouted
:02:20. > :02:27.international law by sending in Russian troops but the Kremlin is
:02:28. > :02:29.taking no notice. This is now turning into the worst stand-off
:02:30. > :02:31.between Russia and the West since the conflict between Georgia and
:02:32. > :02:37.Russia in 2008, though nobody expects any kind of military
:02:38. > :02:42.response from the West. Foreign Secretary William Hague is on his
:02:43. > :02:44.way to Kiev this morning to show his support for the new government,
:02:45. > :02:47.though how long it will survive is another matter. We can speak to our
:02:48. > :02:56.correspondent David Stern, he's in Kiev.
:02:57. > :03:01.As things look from Kiev, can we take it they've lost Crimea, it is
:03:02. > :03:09.now in all essence under Russian control? Yes, well for the moment,
:03:10. > :03:14.Crimea is under Russian control. Russian troops in unmarked uniforms
:03:15. > :03:22.have moved throughout the peninsula taking up various positions, also at
:03:23. > :03:28.the Ismis which links Ukraine into Crimea. They've surrounded Ukrainon
:03:29. > :03:34.troops there. Three units have been captured according to a top
:03:35. > :03:38.officials. We can say at the moment Russia controls the peninsula. It
:03:39. > :03:43.should also be said, also they have the support of the ethnic Russian
:03:44. > :03:47.population. The ethnic Russians make up the majority of the population.
:03:48. > :03:54.They are also not entirely in control because there are other
:03:55. > :03:59.groups, namely the Tatar as and the ethnic Ukrainian speakers who are at
:04:00. > :04:05.least at the moment tacitly resisting. We'll see what they'll
:04:06. > :04:11.start to do in the coming days. David, I'm putting up some pictures
:04:12. > :04:16.showing Russian troops digging in on the border between Crimea and
:04:17. > :04:21.Ukraine. I get the sense that is just for show. There is, I would
:04:22. > :04:28.assume, no possibility that the Ukrainians could attempt to retake
:04:29. > :04:33.Crimea by military force? It seems that the Ukrainians are weighing
:04:34. > :04:38.their options right now. Their options are very limited. Any
:04:39. > :04:42.head-to-head conflict with Russia would probably work against the
:04:43. > :04:47.Ukrainians. They seem to be taking more of a long-term gain. They are
:04:48. > :04:52.waiting for the figs's first move. They are trying not to create any
:04:53. > :04:57.excuse that the Russians can stage an even larger incursion into Crimea
:04:58. > :05:03.or elsewhere, for that matter. They also seem to be trying to get
:05:04. > :05:05.international support. It should be said, this is a new Government. It
:05:06. > :05:08.has only been installed this week. They are trying to gain their
:05:09. > :05:15.footing. This is a major crisis. They have to count on the loyalty of
:05:16. > :05:19.the army they might have some resistance from solders from the
:05:20. > :05:22.eastern part of the country who are Russian speaking. They probably
:05:23. > :05:27.could count on Ukrainian speakers and people from the centre and west
:05:28. > :05:31.of the country as well as regular Ukrainians. A lot of people are
:05:32. > :05:38.ready to fight to defend Ukrainian Terre Tory. Where does the Kremlin
:05:39. > :05:44.go next? They have Crimea to all intents and purposes. There's a weak
:05:45. > :05:47.Government in Kiev. Do they move to the eastern side of Ukraine which is
:05:48. > :05:53.largely Russian speaking and there's already been some unrest there?
:05:54. > :05:57.That's the big question, that's what everybody's really asking now. Where
:05:58. > :06:01.does this go from here? We've had some unrest in the eastern part of
:06:02. > :06:06.the country. There have been demonstrations and clashes. More
:06:07. > :06:13.ominously, there have been noises from the Kremlin they might actually
:06:14. > :06:17.move into eastern Ukraine. Putin in his conversation with Barack Obama
:06:18. > :06:21.said they might protect their interests there. It should be said,
:06:22. > :06:28.if they do expand, in fact, they've also said they are dead against the
:06:29. > :06:35.new Government seeing it as illegitimate and fascist. It does
:06:36. > :06:38.contain risks. They will have to deal with international reactions.
:06:39. > :06:43.America said there will be a deep reaction to this and it will affect
:06:44. > :06:47.Russia's relations with Ukraine and the international community. They
:06:48. > :06:52.have to deal with the reaction in Ukraine. This may unite Ukrainians
:06:53. > :07:00.behind this new interim Government. Once Russia moves in, they will be
:07:01. > :07:07.seen as an invading force. It plays on historical feelings of Russia
:07:08. > :07:13.being an imperial force. Joining me is MP Mark Field who sits
:07:14. > :07:15.on the security Security and Intelligence Committee in the House
:07:16. > :07:21.of Commons. What should the western response be to these events? I can
:07:22. > :07:30.understand why William Hague is going to Kiev tomorrow to stand side
:07:31. > :07:35.by side whizz whoever's in charge. They need to CEOP sit numbers and
:07:36. > :07:43.also President Putin. The truth is we are all co significant fatries to
:07:44. > :07:51.the Budapest Memorandum of almost 20 years ago which was designed to
:07:52. > :07:55.maintain the integrity of the Ukraine and Crimea. There needs to
:07:56. > :08:00.be a discussion along those lines. The difficulty is President Putin
:08:01. > :08:07.has watched events in recent months, in relation to Syria, it is palpable
:08:08. > :08:12.President Obama's focus of attention ask the other side of the Pacific
:08:13. > :08:16.rather than the Atlantic. The vote in the House of Commons, I was very
:08:17. > :08:21.much against the idea of military action or providing weapons to the
:08:22. > :08:27.free Syrian army. My worry is, events proved this, the majority of
:08:28. > :08:32.the other options toed as sad are rather worse. It is clear now we are
:08:33. > :08:37.in a constitutional mess in this country. We cannot even contemplate
:08:38. > :08:40.military action without a parliamentary vote that moves
:08:41. > :08:45.against quick reaction that is required from the executive or, I
:08:46. > :08:53.suspect, there will be very little appetite for any military action
:08:54. > :08:58.from the West over in Ukraine. We are corn tours under the agreement
:08:59. > :09:01.of less than 20 years ago. We may be but we've guaranteed an agreement
:09:02. > :09:06.which it is clear we haven't the power to enforce. You wrote this
:09:07. > :09:12.morning, Britain is a diminished voice. Clams Iley navigating the
:09:13. > :09:16.Syrian conflict we relick wished decisions to the whims of
:09:17. > :09:24.parliamentary approval. That may or may not be but the Kremlin's not
:09:25. > :09:29.watching how we voted on the Syrian issue? In relation to Syria, it was
:09:30. > :09:35.where is the western resolve here. The truth ask Putin's position is
:09:36. > :09:40.considerably less strong. In diplomatic terms. He had a victory
:09:41. > :09:45.in Syria in relation to chemical weapons and in relation to the
:09:46. > :09:53.West's relationship with Iran. Putin is a vital inter locking figure. In
:09:54. > :09:57.demographic and economic terms, Russia's in very deep trouble. The
:09:58. > :10:03.oil price started to fall to any degree, oil and gas price, given the
:10:04. > :10:08.importance of mineral wealth and exports for the Russian economy,
:10:09. > :10:15.Putin would be in a lot of trouble. It requires an engagement from the
:10:16. > :10:18.EU and the EU are intending to look at their internal economic problems
:10:19. > :10:23.and will be smarting from the failure within a matter of hours of
:10:24. > :10:28.the deal they tried to broker only nine days' ago.
:10:29. > :10:31.You say if Mr Putin decides to increase the stakes and moves into
:10:32. > :10:37.the east, takes over the whole place, our Government, you say, will
:10:38. > :10:41.find itself with another colossal international headache. Some people
:10:42. > :10:46.watching this will be thinking, what's it got to do with us? It's a
:10:47. > :10:51.long way away from Britain. We haven't a dog in this fight? We have
:10:52. > :10:57.in this regard for the longer term here. I think if there were to be
:10:58. > :11:01.some military action in Ukraine, the sense of Russia taking over, it
:11:02. > :11:06.could have a major impact on the global economy in very quick order.
:11:07. > :11:10.You should not deny that. There will be move to have sanctions against
:11:11. > :11:17.Russia. The escalation of that will be difficult. The other fact is
:11:18. > :11:24.looking at our internal affairs and reform, partners, the Baltic states,
:11:25. > :11:28.Finland, Poland, the Czech Republic, they will be looking at a resurgent
:11:29. > :11:34.Russia now and think they'll need to hold as tightly as possible to the
:11:35. > :11:41.EU institutions and the power of Germany at the centre of that. This
:11:42. > :11:46.whole appetite for the reforms politically and economically will be
:11:47. > :11:52.closed very much within a matter of a short period of time. It has
:11:53. > :12:01.longer term implications. Mark Field, thank you.
:12:02. > :12:05.We're joined now by BBC News night's Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban. Is
:12:06. > :12:12.there any prospect of a western military response? Clearly at the
:12:13. > :12:18.moment, it is nil. The boat has sailed with the Crimean. It has been
:12:19. > :12:24.per performed by Russian forces. It is now a matter of coordinating a
:12:25. > :12:30.plate cal line. European foreign ministers tomorrow. To say what will
:12:31. > :12:35.our future limits be? Where could we possibly draw red lines? To try to
:12:36. > :12:40.think a couple of steps down this, what happens if Russia interrupts
:12:41. > :12:43.energy supplies to EU member states ornate owe countries? These are the
:12:44. > :12:48.important steps they have to think about. It is quite clear we are in a
:12:49. > :12:53.different world here now. Also, Ukraine is facing a urgent foreign
:12:54. > :12:58.exchange crisis. Within literally a few weeks they could run out of
:12:59. > :13:03.money. All of these are rushing towards decision makers very fast.
:13:04. > :13:08.There is an interim and I suggestion unstable Government in Kiev. Crimea
:13:09. > :13:11.semi-to be under Russian control. There are clashes between the
:13:12. > :13:16.reformers and Russian nationals in the east of the country. What does
:13:17. > :13:21.Mr Putin do next? He has lots of options, of course. He has this
:13:22. > :13:28.carte blanch carte blanch from his Parliament to go in to the rest of
:13:29. > :13:32.Ukraine if he wants to. His military deployment suggests the one bite at
:13:33. > :13:36.a time, just Crimea to start with. See what response comes from the
:13:37. > :13:41.Ukrainian Government. Of course, so far, there hasn't been a coherent
:13:42. > :13:45.response. The really worrying thing about recent months, not just recent
:13:46. > :13:52.days, are the indications that the future of Ukraine as a unitary state
:13:53. > :13:59.is now in doubt. Look at it from the other side of the equation. The
:14:00. > :14:03.President when faced with demonstrations, many extremists, he
:14:04. > :14:08.was unable to deal with that. Now we have the other side, if you like,
:14:09. > :14:13.the Russian speakers, the other side of the fight, Russian nationalists
:14:14. > :14:21.showing they can get away with unilateral action more or less with
:14:22. > :14:25.impunity. The Ukrainian chiefs have been sacked. I think there are
:14:26. > :14:33.considerable questions now as to whether Ukraine is falling apart
:14:34. > :14:35.and, if that happens, we're into a Yugoslav-type situation which will
:14:36. > :14:43.continue posing very serious questions for the EU and NATO for
:14:44. > :14:51.months or years to come. So, Janan, Ukraine is over? Where the west to
:14:52. > :14:57.concede to the Russian in Crimea, it would perversely be a net loss for
:14:58. > :15:02.Russia. You'd assume the rest of Ukraine would become an un
:15:03. > :15:12.unambiguously a member of the the EU, maybe NATO. On top of that a
:15:13. > :15:15.Russian dream of Eurasion dream, they will look at Putin's behaviour
:15:16. > :15:20.and is a, no, thanks, we'll head towards the EU. It is a short-term
:15:21. > :15:34.victory for Putin which backfires on his broader goals in Well, many
:15:35. > :15:40.people said if he grabs Crimea, he loses Ukraine, which is your point.
:15:41. > :15:45.We have seen violent demonstrations in the big eastern cities in Ukraine
:15:46. > :15:50.yesterday. People taking control of certain buildings. The risk is there
:15:51. > :15:54.of spreading beyond Crimea. I think the lack of any unified or visible
:15:55. > :15:58.response from Ukrainian armed forces... They allowed Russian
:15:59. > :16:02.troops to walk into the bases in Crimea. They have supposedly gone on
:16:03. > :16:06.red alert but they have done absolutely nothing. We don't see
:16:07. > :16:09.them deploying from barracks. There are serious questions about whether
:16:10. > :16:18.they would just fall apart. Putin is not going to let them split away. I
:16:19. > :16:22.would have thought he would like the entire Ukraine to come into the
:16:23. > :16:27.Russian ambit. Barack Obama is saying this will not stand. He has a
:16:28. > :16:32.90 minute conversation with Vladimir Putin and what is his response? I am
:16:33. > :16:39.suspending my cooperation in the run-up to the Sochi Summit. What is
:16:40. > :16:43.the EU doing? Nothing. There is nothing they can do and Putin knows
:16:44. > :16:48.there are a series of lines that he is able to cross and get away with
:16:49. > :16:54.it. Why should Berlin, London, Washington be surprised by the
:16:55. > :16:59.strength of Vladimir Putin's reaction? It was never going to let
:17:00. > :17:05.Ukraine just fall into the arms of the EU. That is the interesting
:17:06. > :17:08.point. And who does he listen to? Paddy Ashdown was saying sent Angela
:17:09. > :17:12.Merkel because she is the only person who can talk to him and I
:17:13. > :17:16.find that response worrying. We need to speak with a united voice but
:17:17. > :17:20.nobody knows what we should be saying. Military intervention is out
:17:21. > :17:26.for the West so we go to economic sanctions. Doesn't Vladimir Putin
:17:27. > :17:32.just say, oh, you want sanctions? I have turned off the gas tap. Yes, it
:17:33. > :17:35.is move and countermove, and it is difficult to predict where it will
:17:36. > :17:41.end up. In all these meetings that are being held, they do think a step
:17:42. > :18:12.or two ahead and try and set out clear lines. Thank you for coming in
:18:13. > :18:15.this morning. Labour has been struggling since
:18:16. > :18:17.2010 to decide exactly how to take education secretary Michael Gove,
:18:18. > :18:19.one of the boldest reformers of the coalition and most divisive figures.
:18:20. > :18:21.Ed Miliband appointed TV historian Tristram Hunt and many thought
:18:22. > :18:24.Labour had found the man to teach Michael Gove a lesson. But how much
:18:25. > :18:27.do we really know about the party's plans for England's schools? Wales,
:18:28. > :18:29.Scotland and Northern Ireland are a devolved matter. Child has been back
:18:30. > :18:31.to school to find out. A politician once told me, do you know why
:18:32. > :18:33.education secretaries changed schools? Because they can. Michael
:18:34. > :18:36.Gove might dispute the motive but he is changing schools, like this one.
:18:37. > :18:38.The changes he is ringing in our encouraging them to be academies,
:18:39. > :18:40.free from local authorities to control their own budgets, ushering
:18:41. > :18:42.in free schools, focusing on toughening exams and making them the
:18:43. > :18:46.core of the curriculum with less coursework, and offering heads more
:18:47. > :18:52.discretion on tougher discipline. And he is in a hurry to put all this
:18:53. > :18:56.in place. But has that shut out any chance for a Labour Government to
:18:57. > :19:01.change it all themselves and do they really want to? Any questions?
:19:02. > :19:06.Visiting a different school, first in line to get a crack at that
:19:07. > :19:10.would-be Labour's third shadow education secretary since 2010,
:19:11. > :19:13.Tristram Hunt. In post, he has not been taken about fine tuning
:19:14. > :19:17.previous direct opposition to free schools and he has also suggested
:19:18. > :19:21.teachers in England would have to be licensed under a Labour Government,
:19:22. > :19:25.allowing the worst to be sacked and offering training and development to
:19:26. > :19:29.others and of course ending coalition plans to allow unqualified
:19:30. > :19:39.teachers into classrooms. Full policy detail is still unmarked
:19:40. > :19:45.work. Your opinion about evolution? What is very clear is that Labour's
:19:46. > :19:49.education policy is still evolving. We are learning that they have some
:19:50. > :19:54.clear water, but we also seem, from the sting at the back, to get the
:19:55. > :19:57.feeling that there is not a great deal of difference from them and the
:19:58. > :20:02.current Government on types of schools and the way education should
:20:03. > :20:08.proceed. -- from listening at the back. So what exactly is different
:20:09. > :20:13.about their policy? What Tristram Hunt's job is to do is to be open
:20:14. > :20:18.and honest about the shared agenda between us and the Tories. There are
:20:19. > :20:22.a lot of areas where there is clear water between us and Tristram Hunt
:20:23. > :20:26.as to turn his back, shared agenda, stop fighting it, and forge our
:20:27. > :20:32.agenda, which I think people will be really interested in. The art of
:20:33. > :20:37.Government, of course, is to balance competing pictures of policy, even
:20:38. > :20:41.inside your own party. It is fair to say that if Labour reflects and
:20:42. > :20:45.draws its own visions of a shared agenda, it might have to square that
:20:46. > :20:49.idea with teaching unions, who are already unhappy with the pace and
:20:50. > :20:54.tone of change that the Government had sketched out. What we sincerely
:20:55. > :20:58.hope is that if Labour were to form the next Government, that they would
:20:59. > :21:21.look at a serious review of accountability measures. That is
:21:22. > :21:23.really what ways on teachers every single day. Actually they would look
:21:24. > :21:25.at restoring the possibility, for example, of local councillors to be
:21:26. > :21:28.able to open schools. That seems eminently sensible. If they are not
:21:29. > :21:30.going to move back from the free schools and academies programme, at
:21:31. > :21:33.the very least they need to say that academy chains will be inspected
:21:34. > :21:35.because at the moment they are not. Labour have balls in the air on
:21:36. > :21:37.education and are still throwing around precise policy detail. There
:21:38. > :21:40.are areas that they could grab hold of and seize possession. A focus on
:21:41. > :21:42.the rounding of the people, developing character, the impact of
:21:43. > :21:45.digitalisation on the classroom. Also the role and handling of
:21:46. > :21:49.teachers in the system and the interdependence of schools. That is
:21:50. > :21:53.all still to play for. Currently I think the difference between the
:21:54. > :21:58.parties is that the coalition policies, while we do not agree with
:21:59. > :22:02.all of them, are clear and explicit, and Labour's policies are yet to be
:22:03. > :22:09.formulated in a way that everybody can understand clearly. I don't
:22:10. > :22:16.think that Tristram Hunt or Miliband will want to pick unnecessary fights
:22:17. > :22:22.before the election. I think we will have quite a red, pinkish fuzziness
:22:23. > :22:28.around the whole area of policy but after the election there will be
:22:29. > :22:33.grey steel from Tristram Hunt. But if fuzzy policy before the election
:22:34. > :22:37.is the lesson plan, it does rather risk interested voters being left in
:22:38. > :22:47.the dark. Tristram Hunt joins me now for the
:22:48. > :22:53.Sunday interview. Welcome. Thank you. Which of Michael
:22:54. > :22:57.Gove's school reforms would you repeal? We are not interested in
:22:58. > :23:00.throwing a change for the sake of it. When I go round schools,
:23:01. > :23:04.teachers have been through very aggressive changes in the last three
:23:05. > :23:07.years, so when it comes to some of the curriculum reforms we have seen,
:23:08. > :23:12.we are not interested in changing those for the sake of it. Where we
:23:13. > :23:16.are interested in making change is having a focus on technical and
:23:17. > :23:21.vocational education, making sure that the forgotten 15% is properly
:23:22. > :23:25.addressed in our education system. What we saw in your package was an
:23:26. > :23:28.interesting description of how we have seen structural reforms in the
:23:29. > :23:32.names of schools. Academies, free schools, all the rest of it.
:23:33. > :23:35.International evidence is clear that it is the quality of leadership of
:23:36. > :23:39.the headteachers and the quality of teaching in the classroom that
:23:40. > :23:44.transforms the prospects of young people. Instead of tinkering around
:23:45. > :23:47.the names of schools, we focus on teacher quality. Viewers will be
:23:48. > :24:04.shocked to note that this Government approves of unqualified teachers in
:24:05. > :24:05.the classroom. We want to have fully qualified, passionate, motivated
:24:06. > :24:08.teachers in the classroom. It sounds like you might not repeal anything.
:24:09. > :24:10.You might build on it and you might go in a different direction, with
:24:11. > :24:13.more emphasis on technological education but no major repeal of the
:24:14. > :24:17.reforms of Michael Gove? I don't think you want to waste energy on
:24:18. > :24:21.undoing reforms. In certain situations they build on Labour
:24:22. > :24:26.Party policy. We introduced the sponsored academy programmes and we
:24:27. > :24:32.began the Teach First programmes, and we began the London challenge
:24:33. > :24:35.which transformed the educational prospects of children in London. We
:24:36. > :24:39.want to roll that out across the country. You have said there will be
:24:40. > :24:44.no more free schools, which Michael Gove introduced, but you will allow
:24:45. > :24:53.parents let academies, which just means free schools by a different
:24:54. > :24:57.name. No, because they will be in certain areas. We want to create new
:24:58. > :25:01.schools with parents. What we have at the moment is a destructive and
:25:02. > :25:04.market-driven approach to education. I was in Stroud on
:25:05. > :25:10.Thursday and plans for a big new school, in an area with surplus
:25:11. > :25:14.places, threatened to destroy the viability of local, rural schools.
:25:15. > :25:17.We want schools to work together in a network of partnership and
:25:18. > :25:21.challenge, rather than this destructive market-driven approach.
:25:22. > :25:47.You say that, but your version of free schools, I think, would only be
:25:48. > :25:49.allowed where there is a shortage of places. That means that where there
:25:50. > :25:52.is an excess of bad schools, parents will have no choice. They still have
:25:53. > :25:55.to send their kids to bad schools. And we have to transform bad schools
:25:56. > :25:58.and that was always the Labour way in Government. At the moment we just
:25:59. > :25:59.have an insertion of new schools. Schools currently underperforming
:26:00. > :26:02.are now underperforming even more. Children only have one chance at
:26:03. > :26:04.education. What about their time in school? Our focus is on the
:26:05. > :26:06.leadership of the headteacher and having quality teachers in the
:26:07. > :26:09.classroom. So they cannot set up new better schools and they have to go
:26:10. > :26:12.to the bad schools. Tony Blair said it should be easier for parents to
:26:13. > :26:15.set up new schools where they are dissatisfied with existing schools.
:26:16. > :26:18.You are not saying that. Even where they are dissatisfied with existing
:26:19. > :26:24.schools, they cannot set up free schools and you are reneging on
:26:25. > :26:28.that. We live in difficult economic circumstances where we have got to
:26:29. > :26:35.focus public finances on the areas of absolute need. We need 250,000
:26:36. > :26:38.new school places. 150,000 in London alone. We have to focus on building
:26:39. > :26:47.new schools and where we have to put them. And secondly... Absolutely
:26:48. > :26:52.not. Focusing on those schools. Making sure we turned them around,
:26:53. > :26:55.just as we did in Government. We have had a remarkable degree of
:26:56. > :26:59.waste under the free school programme. If you think of the free
:27:00. > :27:04.school in Derby, the Academy in Bradford, and as we saw in the
:27:05. > :27:08.Telegraph on Friday, the free schools in Suffolk, a great deal of
:27:09. > :27:11.waste of public money on underperforming free schools. That
:27:12. > :27:15.is not the Labour way. We focus on making sure that kids in schools at
:27:16. > :27:22.the moment get the best possible education. Except that in your own
:27:23. > :27:28.backyard, in Stoke, only 34% of secondary school pupils attend a
:27:29. > :27:33.good or outstanding school. 148 out of 150 of the worst performing local
:27:34. > :27:36.authorities and it is Labour-controlled. Still terrible
:27:37. > :27:42.schools and yet you say parents should not have the freedom to start
:27:43. > :27:46.a better school. We have great schools in Stoke-on-Trent as well.
:27:47. > :27:50.We face challenges, just as Wolverhampton does and the Isle of
:27:51. > :27:55.Wight and Lincolnshire. Just like large parts of the country. What is
:27:56. > :27:59.the solution to that? Making sure we share excellence among the existing
:28:00. > :28:03.schools and making sure we have quality leadership in schools. Those
:28:04. > :28:07.schools in Stoke-on-Trent are all academies. It is not a question only
:28:08. > :28:10.of structure but of leadership. It is also a question of going back to
:28:11. > :28:14.the responsibility of parents to make sure their kids are school
:28:15. > :28:49.ready when they get to school. To make sure they are reading to their
:28:50. > :28:51.children in the evening. We can't put it all on teachers. Parents have
:28:52. > :28:54.responsibilities. I understand that but you have told me Labour's policy
:28:55. > :28:57.would not be to set up new schools which parents hope will be better.
:28:58. > :29:00.Parents continue to send their kids to bad schools in areas like Stoke.
:29:01. > :29:02.Labour has had plenty of time to sort out these schools in Stoke and
:29:03. > :29:04.they are still among the worst performing in the country. You are
:29:05. > :29:07.condemning these parents to having to send their kids to bad schools.
:29:08. > :29:10.Where we have seen the sett ing up of Derby, Suffolk, we have seen that
:29:11. > :29:13.is not the simple solution. Is simply setting up a new is not a
:29:14. > :29:15.successful model. What works is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on
:29:16. > :29:18.Friday at a failing comprehensive is not a successful model. What works
:29:19. > :29:20.is good leadership. I was in Birmingham on Friday at a failing
:29:21. > :29:23.comprehensive school and now people are queueing round the block to get
:29:24. > :29:24.into it. You can turn around schools with the right leadership,
:29:25. > :29:29.passionate and motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the
:29:30. > :29:35.learning outcome of their kids. In the last few years of the Labour
:29:36. > :29:37.Government, only four kids from your this Government would set up the new
:29:38. > :29:40.school. In Birmingham, they got in a great headmaster and turned the
:29:41. > :29:42.school around and now people are queueing round the block to get into
:29:43. > :29:44.it. You can turnaround schools with the right leadership, passionate and
:29:45. > :29:47.motivated teachers, and parents engaged with the learning outcome of
:29:48. > :29:50.their kids. In the last few years of a Labour Government, only four kids
:29:51. > :29:53.from your area of and you had plenty of chances to put this right but
:29:54. > :29:56.only four got to the two and you had plenty of chances to put this right
:29:57. > :30:02.but only four got to the two leading universities. Traditionally young
:30:03. > :30:06.people could leave school at 16 and walking two jobs in the potteries,
:30:07. > :30:09.the steel industry, the traditionally young people could
:30:10. > :30:15.leave school at 16 and walking two jobs in the potteries, the steel
:30:16. > :30:20.industry, the but also to get an apprenticeship at Jaguar Land
:30:21. > :30:26.Rover, JCB, Rolls-Royce. That is why Ed Miliband's focus on the forgotten
:30:27. > :30:29.15%, which we have just not seen from this Government, focusing on
:30:30. > :30:50.technical and vocational pathways, is fundamental to Your headmaster
:30:51. > :30:58.was guiles Slaughter. Was he a good teacher? He He never taught me.
:30:59. > :31:03.Over 90% of teeners in the private sector are qualified. They look for
:31:04. > :31:08.not simply teachers with qualified teacher status. Teachers with MAs.
:31:09. > :31:10.Teachers who are improving them cephalitis. Becoming better
:31:11. > :31:20.educators. cephalitis. Becoming better
:31:21. > :31:24.teaching. You were taught by unqualified teachers. Your parents
:31:25. > :31:28.paid over ?15,000 a year for you being taught by unqualified
:31:29. > :31:32.teachers. Why did you make such a big deal of it? Because we've seen
:31:33. > :31:38.right around the world those education systems which focus on
:31:39. > :31:44.having the most qualified teachers perform the best. It cannot be right
:31:45. > :31:49.that anyone can simply turn up, as at the moment, have schools at
:31:50. > :31:54.veritising for unqualified teachers teaching in the classroom. We want
:31:55. > :32:00.the best qualified teachers with the deepest subject knowledge, for the
:32:01. > :32:06.passion in learning for their kids. It is absurd we are having arguments
:32:07. > :32:10.about this. Simply having a paper qualification doesn't make you a
:32:11. > :32:16.great teacher. Let me take you to Brighton college. It is gone from
:32:17. > :32:19.the 147th to the 18 18th best private school in the land. Fllt the
:32:20. > :32:41.headmaster says: This is the top Sundaytimes school
:32:42. > :32:47.of the year. The school in derby where this Government allowed
:32:48. > :32:52.unqualified teaching assist taints. We had teachers who could barely
:32:53. > :32:56.speak English. That is because if you have unqualified teachers you
:32:57. > :33:00.end up with a dangerous situation. The problem with that school was not
:33:01. > :33:07.unqualified teachers. People were running that school who were unfit
:33:08. > :33:10.to run a school. We have an issue about discipline and behaviour
:33:11. > :33:14.management in some of our schools. Some of the skills teachers gain
:33:15. > :33:19.through qualifications and learning is how to manage classes and get the
:33:20. > :33:23.best out of kids at every stage. It doesn't end with a qualified teacher
:33:24. > :33:28.status. That's just the beginning. We want our teachers to have
:33:29. > :33:33.continue it will development. It is not good enough to have your initial
:33:34. > :33:39.teacher trainingaged work through your career for 30 years. You need
:33:40. > :33:44.continual learning. Learning how to deal with digital technology.
:33:45. > :33:49.Refresh your subject knowledge. As an historian I help teachers. You've
:33:50. > :33:55.taught as an unqualified teacher. Not in charge of a subject group. I
:33:56. > :34:01.give the odd lecture. I'm-y to go to as many schools as possible. I don't
:34:02. > :34:07.blame you. It is uplifting. Would you sack all unqualified teachers?
:34:08. > :34:14.We'd want them all to gain teacher status. What if they say no? If they
:34:15. > :34:20.are not interested in improving skills and deepening their knowledge
:34:21. > :34:27.they should not be in the classroom. If a free school or academy hired a
:34:28. > :34:31.teach thinking they are a great teacher but unqualified, if they are
:34:32. > :34:36.then forced by you to fire them, they will be in breach of the law.
:34:37. > :34:40.They are being urged by us to make sure they have qualified teacher
:34:41. > :34:44.status. We've lots of unqualified teachers as long as they are on the
:34:45. > :34:49.pathway to making sure they are qualified. But if they say they
:34:50. > :34:53.don't want to do this, will you fire them? It is not an unreasonable
:34:54. > :34:57.suggestion is that the teachers in charge of our young people have
:34:58. > :35:03.qualifications to teach and inspire our young people particularly when
:35:04. > :35:12.we face global competition from Shanghai, Korea and so
:35:13. > :35:12.we face global competition from teacher of Brighton college finds
:35:13. > :35:16.incredibly inspeechational teachers who don't' necessarily have a
:35:17. > :35:24.teaching qualifications. It is a different skill to teach ten young
:35:25. > :35:28.nice boys and girls in Brighton to teaches 20 or 30 quids with
:35:29. > :35:32.challenging circumstances, special educational needs, different
:35:33. > :35:37.ability. Being a teacher at Brighton college is an easy gig in comparison
:35:38. > :35:43.to other schools. Where we want teachers to have a capacity to teach
:35:44. > :35:51.properly. Do you think Tristram could ever lead the Labour Party? I
:35:52. > :35:55.think Ed is a great leader, the reforms yesterday were a real sign
:35:56. > :35:58.for his leadership. And the fact David Owen, the man with a
:35:59. > :36:04.pre-history with our party is back with us. It is great. Even Gideon
:36:05. > :36:13.had to change his name to George. Have you thought of switching to
:36:14. > :36:18.Tommy or Tony? Maybe not Tony! Michael Foot was called Dingle Foot.
:36:19. > :36:22.I love the Labour because it accepts everybody from me to Len McCluskey.
:36:23. > :36:26.We are a big, broad happy family on our way to Government. Thank you
:36:27. > :36:32.very much. You're watching The Sunday Politics.
:36:33. > :36:37.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us for Sunday
:36:38. > :36:38.politics Scotland. In over 20 minutes I'll
:36:39. > :36:52.On-the-runHello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:36:53. > :36:55.The row over 'On The Runs', that saw the First Minister threaten to step
:36:56. > :36:59.down, continues with claim and counter claim about who knew what
:37:00. > :37:02.and when. The Justice Minister, David Ford, joins us live to discuss
:37:03. > :37:05.the fall-out. Also today, as a bid is made in the
:37:06. > :37:09.House Of Lords to extend libel reform to Northern Ireland, we hear
:37:10. > :37:12.from both sides of the legal debate. And, joining me to share their
:37:13. > :37:14.thoughts on those issues and more, my guests today are Newton Emerson
:37:15. > :37:25.and Cathy Gormley-Heenan. In the end, it was a case of crisis
:37:26. > :37:28.averted, but at one point this week the collapse of the Assembly looked
:37:29. > :37:32.like it might just happen - again. The political storm blew up in the
:37:33. > :37:35.wake of the collapse of the John Downey court case and the light the
:37:36. > :37:39.court judgement shed on secret letters issued to IRA 'on-the-runs'.
:37:40. > :37:42.As the blame game continues, where has this past turbulent week left
:37:43. > :37:46.the political process and the ongoing attempts to resolve our
:37:47. > :37:56.troubled past? Joining me now is the Justice Minister, David Ford. Thank
:37:57. > :38:01.you for joining us. First of all, a development today. Peter Hain wrote
:38:02. > :38:05.in the Sunday Telegraph and has called for the soldiers involved in
:38:06. > :38:11.the Bloody Sunday killings not to be prosecuted. Do you agree?
:38:12. > :38:19.It almost looks like playing a part in one pseudo- amnesty, he is now
:38:20. > :38:23.try to play a part in another. When the Attorney General suggested we
:38:24. > :38:27.should draw a line under the past it was almost universally rejected.
:38:28. > :38:31.There are difficulties with evidence when you go back that far but it
:38:32. > :38:35.does not mean we should abandon the opportunity if there is one in some
:38:36. > :38:40.cases. There is an anomaly in the system and does that not need to be
:38:41. > :38:46.addressed? The system is full of anomalies,
:38:47. > :38:50.mostly because of the way the British government was making side
:38:51. > :38:54.deals. That is the reality and we are living with those anomalies as
:38:55. > :38:58.people like we try to get the justice system to work properly
:38:59. > :39:08.today. You can understand why Unionists are
:39:09. > :39:13.pretty angry. How people potentially involved in violent crime are given
:39:14. > :39:20.a potentially "get out free card" as they describe it?
:39:21. > :39:30.But the fact that somebody was on duty in one case doesn't mean they
:39:31. > :39:33.did not commit a crime. That is the way very highest standards should be
:39:34. > :39:37.held for those who are responsible as agents of the state. We have to
:39:38. > :39:41.look at the practical realities as to what may not be possible without
:39:42. > :39:46.saying we draw a line and effectively grant an amnesty without
:39:47. > :39:52.an attempt to get justice where it is possible. What would your advice
:39:53. > :39:56.to Peter Hain be? I am not sure his advice is being
:39:57. > :40:00.particularly well received. Perhaps the best thing he could do is to
:40:01. > :40:05.give a full account of everything he did to the enquiry.
:40:06. > :40:11.In the Sunday Times, Peter Robinson accused Peter Hain of misleading
:40:12. > :40:16.Parliament over the on-the-run letters in 2006 and 2007, but Peter
:40:17. > :40:22.Hain refuted that. When you look at what he said in Hansard, it makes
:40:23. > :40:27.for interesting reading, doesn't it? Some of the remarks appeared to be
:40:28. > :40:35.less than the complete truth. He said that he said it had to be
:40:36. > :40:37.addressed. I think he needs to examine his precise background and
:40:38. > :40:46.perhaps that is something the judge will do in the coming months.
:40:47. > :40:49.You got clarity on Thursday night, Friday morning that there are five
:40:50. > :40:53."live" OTR cases currently in the system for consideration. Should
:40:54. > :41:01.they be stopped, as the DUP has demanded?
:41:02. > :41:06.I simply don't have enough detail what the status of that is whether
:41:07. > :41:11.they can be stopped. I have a track -- asked for legal advice as to what
:41:12. > :41:15.the department can do. It is a really unclear position. You will
:41:16. > :41:21.have heard the Secretary of State saying it is a devolved issue, but
:41:22. > :41:26.it was never a devolved issue. The Northern Ireland Office continued
:41:27. > :41:29.and accepted a call from a senior official on Friday that they were
:41:30. > :41:33.still responsible for those five even though we are still four years
:41:34. > :41:38.into devolution. So as far as you are concerned, you
:41:39. > :41:40.are the justice minister but these five cases have not been devolved to
:41:41. > :41:46.you? I have made it clear that I want no
:41:47. > :41:58.part in Peterhead and's shabby scheme. -- in Peter Hain's shabby
:41:59. > :42:02.scheme. It is unclear as to quote -- whether there was any right for The
:42:03. > :42:06.Northern Ireland Office to continue to pursue them after devolution.
:42:07. > :42:12.It looks like being scheme is continuing, doesn't it?
:42:13. > :42:17.It appears to pay but whether it is legally the case is something on
:42:18. > :42:20.which I am seeking advice. Presumably being plucked -- the
:42:21. > :42:25.enquiry will clarify some of this, do you think?
:42:26. > :42:30.It is not expected to report until the end of May. We know something
:42:31. > :42:35.about the broad terms of reference but there are frequently differences
:42:36. > :42:39.as to how they are interpreted. If a judge wants to get into the full
:42:40. > :42:43.details of the case we will have a better chance. The select committee
:42:44. > :42:47.in Westminster may well be looking at the detail if they don't think a
:42:48. > :42:50.judge lead enquiry has gone far enough.
:42:51. > :42:53.The most senior... It turns out that the most senior civil servant in
:42:54. > :42:57.your department, Nick Perry, knew about what you've called "this
:42:58. > :43:05.shabby, back door deal" all along. You did not!
:43:06. > :43:09.I don't know how much Nick knew. The civil service code makes it clear
:43:10. > :43:13.that civil servants serve the minister who leads the department
:43:14. > :43:19.they are in. The day they move departments they have allegiance to
:43:20. > :43:23.a different minister. And that is how it should be. It is the
:43:24. > :43:27.principle of a nonpolitical civil service working in the interests of
:43:28. > :43:32.the ministers who are there by the political process. I would be
:43:33. > :43:35.annoyed if people who moved from the Department of Justice were telling
:43:36. > :43:40.what went on in that department. You might think I would have wished to
:43:41. > :43:46.know from Nick Perry, but there are much wider implications and his
:43:47. > :43:49.behaviour has been proper. No one is suggesting anything to the contrary
:43:50. > :43:57.but people might be wondering that it is not a good example of joined
:43:58. > :44:01.up government? Files have markers put in them when
:44:02. > :44:05.governments changed and when ministers changed saying, the
:44:06. > :44:08.information below this is not to be revealed to the new ministers and
:44:09. > :44:13.there are lots of complications around that.
:44:14. > :44:21.What other wider political implications, do you think? Night --
:44:22. > :44:25.Mike Nesbitt declared that as far as he is concerned, the Haass talks are
:44:26. > :44:31.dead in the water and he is taking no part. Is that your position?
:44:32. > :44:35.No, that was a foolish thing for him to say. It doesn't matter what
:44:36. > :44:40.emerges from however many enquiries, five parties have the
:44:41. > :44:44.responsibility for leading the executive. Collectively, we have the
:44:45. > :44:48.responsibility to build a better shared future for Northern Ireland
:44:49. > :44:53.and to ensure we put the past behind us in a way which deals with it
:44:54. > :44:56.honestly and comprehensively and we can provide something for which I
:44:57. > :45:02.children and grandchildren can be proud. If we say, I wash my hands of
:45:03. > :45:06.it, we will not get anywhere. But this situation of the past 72
:45:07. > :45:12.hours has fatally wounded that process, has it not?
:45:13. > :45:15.Maybe the four of us will have to carry on without him.
:45:16. > :45:19.Fundamentally, the people of Northern Ireland, through their
:45:20. > :45:22.elected representatives, have to solve the problems whatever else is
:45:23. > :45:28.happening. Do you think the DUP will stay in
:45:29. > :45:35.the process? I think they have distanced themselves from Mike
:45:36. > :45:39.Nesbitt. I am not sure he wants to be relevant, but certainly I want
:45:40. > :45:46.the Alliance party to be relevant and I will continue to do a good job
:45:47. > :45:50.in Justice. Those are the key things for Northern Ireland, moving forward
:45:51. > :45:53.and not falling out over the past in a way which stops us moving forward
:45:54. > :45:56.together. Thank you. Let's hear from our
:45:57. > :46:03.guests now, the commentator Newton Emerson and Dr Cathy Gormley-Heenan
:46:04. > :46:10.from the University of Ulster. Hard to know where to start, isn't it?
:46:11. > :46:14.Let us talk about Peter Hain and the issue of whether or not soldiers
:46:15. > :46:17.involved in Bloody Sunday should be prosecuted. You can understand it
:46:18. > :46:22.will create another political altercation?
:46:23. > :46:27.Yes, there is no reason why Bloody Sunday should be treated any
:46:28. > :46:32.differently to any other atrocities. The Unionist position is
:46:33. > :46:36.that special treatment shouldn't be given to the victims so why should
:46:37. > :46:42.it be given to the perpetrators. It is an attempt to create another de
:46:43. > :46:45.facto amnesty. The object of letting off the soldiers is that nothing
:46:46. > :46:52.could be prosecuted from 40 years ago. Why would that be the case? We
:46:53. > :46:57.are prosecuting radio celebrities from 40 years ago so are you saying
:46:58. > :47:05.a multiple murder is less serious? It is revealing of a new agenda to
:47:06. > :47:10.have a de facto amnesty but that is not legally or politically possible.
:47:11. > :47:14.It is hard for people to pick their way through the minefield of this
:47:15. > :47:18.latest row. You have Peter Hain saying that all of this was in the
:47:19. > :47:22.public domain and people should have known about it and looked at what
:47:23. > :47:28.was being said in Westminster and Stormont. Then Peter Robinson says
:47:29. > :47:33.today in the Sunday Times and quoting answers Peter Hain gave that
:47:34. > :47:40.he says were less than open and honest. How do you get at the facts?
:47:41. > :47:48.Hopefully, that is what the enquiry will attempt to do. I have read
:47:49. > :47:52.about the on-the-run letters years ago in a law journal. People
:47:53. > :47:56.interested in the peace process probably did have a sense that
:47:57. > :48:00.something was happening. It is like many things in Northern Ireland, it
:48:01. > :48:07.flares up at a particular point. This past week, the issue has been
:48:08. > :48:12.more than anything that there needs to be a renewed impetus on a process
:48:13. > :48:20.with which we deal with the past. We have been dealing in with it since
:48:21. > :48:26.1998 but in a piecemeal way. Maybe a bit too pragmatic and approach.
:48:27. > :48:30.Briefly, Peter Robinson made it clear he would resign if he did not
:48:31. > :48:36.get a satisfactory result -- response from the government. He
:48:37. > :48:40.said he got the response he was looking for and his demands were
:48:41. > :48:46.met, where they? I genuinely believe he was ready to
:48:47. > :48:53.resign, but not to bring down the executive. He wanted to reassert his
:48:54. > :48:58.mandate. That is why his credit -- threat was read -- credible. I
:48:59. > :49:07.genuinely think he would have hit the button for an election. Not to
:49:08. > :49:14.bring it down. Briefly, what about Haass? Is it dead in the water? Mike
:49:15. > :49:20.Nesbitt thinks it is but it is an opportunity to decouple some issues.
:49:21. > :49:25.The flags and parades were to difficult to include as a composite
:49:26. > :49:31.block. It is an opportunity to decouple those things and it is a
:49:32. > :49:35.new way to deal with the past. Thank you, both. Now, let's pause
:49:36. > :49:43.for a moment as Conor Macauley takes a look back at a turbulent week in
:49:44. > :49:47.local politics in 60 Seconds. The stormy weather makes life tough
:49:48. > :49:52.for fishermen and they appealed to Stormont for help. We have had to
:49:53. > :49:56.rely on charities based in England to come and help us says something
:49:57. > :50:00.about our politicians and the executive.
:50:01. > :50:05.A different type of storm is brewing on the hill as the case against the
:50:06. > :50:09.man accused of the Hyde Park bombing collapsed. John Downey is one of
:50:10. > :50:14.several on-the-run buts who were told they were not being sought by
:50:15. > :50:19.police. Peter Robinson threatened to resign when he hand -- heard.
:50:20. > :50:24.I am not prepared to be the head of a government kept in the dark. The
:50:25. > :50:29.deputy called for calm claiming others did know.
:50:30. > :50:35.We were the only people who knew about this.
:50:36. > :50:40.David Cameron wants to know more and appointed a judge to lead a review.
:50:41. > :50:42.I agree with Peter Robinson that it is right to get to the bottom of
:50:43. > :50:52.what happened. Conor Macauley reporting. An attempt
:50:53. > :50:56.in the House of Lords to extend libel laws to Northern Ireland was
:50:57. > :50:59.last week withdrawn after a government minister warned that the
:51:00. > :51:04.Stormont executive must have primacy on the issue. When the Defamation
:51:05. > :51:09.Act wrote about first major changes to the UK libel laws since the 19th
:51:10. > :51:16.century, Sammy Wilson halted its extension here. Joining me now to
:51:17. > :51:20.discuss this is Lord Bew, who is part of that attempt in the Lords to
:51:21. > :51:28.extend reform here, and the lawyer Paul Tweed who's opposed.
:51:29. > :51:30.Why was the attempt made at Westminster?
:51:31. > :51:35.When you get a Northern Ireland provisions Bill going through the
:51:36. > :51:40.house, and it is a rare advent, it is inevitable people will make the
:51:41. > :51:44.attempt. There is a lot of feeling in the House of Lords on this issue,
:51:45. > :51:50.there is an attempt to have a debate about it at least. The truth is, the
:51:51. > :51:54.matter is now over. The Minister made it clear for a number of
:51:55. > :52:00.reasons that they will not intervene and it is now a matter for the
:52:01. > :52:04.assembly. A report will be set up from the Law Commission with a
:52:05. > :52:09.distinguished academic to work on it. That is where the debate and
:52:10. > :52:16.focus now is. It was worth airing last week again at Westminster and
:52:17. > :52:20.that concerns exist about freedom of expression here. It is now at a
:52:21. > :52:23.weaker level than the rest of the UK.
:52:24. > :52:29.What is your basic concern? The fundamental concern for me
:52:30. > :52:37.personally as an academic, there is an issue about academic freedom and
:52:38. > :52:43.what academics can save. It is also about political and historical
:52:44. > :52:46.matters. This bill extends academic freedom. It defends the idea of a
:52:47. > :52:51.public interest defence for the media as a whole. If we are going to
:52:52. > :52:56.deal with the past, particularly here, one has to have the freest
:52:57. > :53:02.possible discussion and there really isn't any question that historically
:53:03. > :53:07.the courts have been used to limit in some way of the amount of
:53:08. > :53:12.freedom... As far as all parties are concerned in London, it is supposed
:53:13. > :53:17.to be the correct context for public debate. The absence of this
:53:18. > :53:22.legislation curtails free and open discussion, critically about the key
:53:23. > :53:28.issue of past? In my opinion, it was outrageous
:53:29. > :53:33.that these peers attempted to impose legislation Northern Ireland which,
:53:34. > :53:37.I should say, has been rejected by Scotland. The Republic of Ireland's
:53:38. > :53:42.laws are broadly similar to our own as they currently stand so there is
:53:43. > :53:47.no need for change whatsoever. As far as our libel laws are
:53:48. > :53:51.concerned, there are plenty of safety mechanisms built in. I act
:53:52. > :53:55.for both plaintiffs and newspapers and just before Christmas I acted
:53:56. > :54:02.for a national newspaper in defending a case of so-called" is
:54:03. > :54:08.libel tourism" . We successfully did that. So the law as it currently
:54:09. > :54:13.stands is effective. My big concern is access to justice for the
:54:14. > :54:17.ordinary man on the street. We talk about academics and scientists and
:54:18. > :54:24.I'd sample size with those views. If he feels there is a genuine threat
:54:25. > :54:29.-- I sympathise with those views. I would be happy to countenance
:54:30. > :54:34.specific change in the law but not a whole scale introduction of an owner
:54:35. > :54:37.is law that completely makes it impossible for the ordinary person
:54:38. > :54:43.to take legal proceedings here in Northern Ireland. Finally, a key
:54:44. > :54:48.change is the removal of the jury is. I sat on all the Ministry of
:54:49. > :54:53.Justice panels in London when they debated the English change to the
:54:54. > :54:56.law and I did not get one argument that convinced me that juries were
:54:57. > :55:01.not doing a good job. It is very significant that the one thing the
:55:02. > :55:06.press are worried about here are their readers, the general public,
:55:07. > :55:10.deciding whether they have performed properly and fairly in terms of
:55:11. > :55:17.their reporting. You, as a libel lawyer, may find
:55:18. > :55:22.yourself very busy if the status quo is main stained -- maintained.
:55:23. > :55:26.There will not be a rush of oligarchs coming to Northern
:55:27. > :55:33.Ireland, believe me. I work from London, Dublin and Belfast and less
:55:34. > :55:37.than 5% of my work takes place in Belfast. I don't mind. I will work
:55:38. > :55:42.within the law and what the law gives to me but I cannot get justice
:55:43. > :55:47.for the general public where they have no access to legal aid. We have
:55:48. > :55:51.always been treated differently in Northern Ireland. We cannot recover
:55:52. > :55:57.insurance premiums so we have always been treated differently.
:55:58. > :56:00.How do you respond? He can understand your specific and concern
:56:01. > :56:07.about academics but what about members of the public? He feels he
:56:08. > :56:11.represents their best interests and an extension of this legislation
:56:12. > :56:18.would not serve them? The whole problem with libel law is
:56:19. > :56:22.the conflict between the need to have an -- a right to defend your
:56:23. > :56:27.reputation and the freedom of debate. After a long process of
:56:28. > :56:30.examination we have come up with a new position in Westminster. If you
:56:31. > :56:35.say the Republic of Ireland is different, that is right. We see
:56:36. > :56:39.massive scandals in the Republic of Ireland and there was not one
:56:40. > :56:43.serious article in the press anticipating anything leading up to
:56:44. > :56:47.the whole area of the collapse of the economy and bankers and so on.
:56:48. > :56:53.Does this tell you you had the requisite level of freedoms of
:56:54. > :56:57.discussion here? It is true that Scotland is different but it has its
:56:58. > :57:04.own tradition of law which is elaborate. We have had UK law here
:57:05. > :57:10.essentially. You are not asking our judiciary to operate on an old
:57:11. > :57:16.second-hand car. The media in London will be operating according to the
:57:17. > :57:21.new model and it creates a number of anomalies and difficulties for the
:57:22. > :57:27.judiciary here in Belfast. We are not the same as Scotland,
:57:28. > :57:34.what about that point, nor the legal system -- system in the Republic of
:57:35. > :57:38.Ireland. Our law is broadly similar to Scotland and Ireland. Putting
:57:39. > :57:43.this in perspective, the number of libel actions that have come before
:57:44. > :57:47.the courts in Belfast over the last 30 years are probably to every
:57:48. > :57:54.decade at Oaks. A survey was carried out in England about the so-called
:57:55. > :58:02.libel tourism -- every decade at most. This is a non-issue. A
:58:03. > :58:06.non-problem. The press are sensitive about it to protect their financial
:58:07. > :58:16.issue -- interests but it is not an issue.
:58:17. > :58:21.Thank you both for joining us. Newton says it is not an issue. I am
:58:22. > :58:28.fed up defending libel reform because everyone thinks it is about
:58:29. > :58:33.journalists. The Defamation Act is about protecting academics and
:58:34. > :58:38.scientists. I follow alarming cases where scientists were pursued
:58:39. > :58:43.because companies didn't like the results. There are thousands of jobs
:58:44. > :58:48.like that in Northern Ireland in a university and Major Forbes --
:58:49. > :58:51.firms. It will only take one of these ridiculous cases to make as an
:58:52. > :58:59.international pariah and a similar risk applies to IT. Those industries
:59:00. > :59:03.need to get off the face -- fence and defend their interests because
:59:04. > :59:09.the media cannot do it alone. Mike Nesbitt's billows out for
:59:10. > :59:18.consultation. We know that it is a big responsibility on our show
:59:19. > :59:20.ministers shoulders? They should take his day from the deliberations
:59:21. > :59:27.in the house of Lords because they have much experience in the reading
:59:28. > :59:31.of these bills. We have no formal opposition or an effective
:59:32. > :59:34.opposition, the media plays that role and anything that could happen
:59:35. > :59:40.in the media that could stop holding our government to account is
:59:41. > :59:42.Government to change it. Thank you both for being here. Andrew, back to
:59:43. > :59:55.you. This week grant Shap said he wanted
:59:56. > :00:01.to rebrand the Tories as the workers' party to show it can reach
:00:02. > :00:05.out to blue-collar workers. One Conservative Party MP said they
:00:06. > :00:13.should scrap what he said was their boring old logo. We asked him and
:00:14. > :00:22.two other independent MPs how they'd freshen up their logos.
:00:23. > :00:28.Aspiration's always been our core value. About helping people get on
:00:29. > :00:33.with life. Giving people ladders of opportunity. That's why our symbol
:00:34. > :00:38.must reflect our values of aspiration and why I'm calling for
:00:39. > :00:45.our symbol to be changed from a tree to a ladder which symbolises social
:00:46. > :00:49.mobility and stands up for everything conservatism represents.
:00:50. > :00:55.I like an he will fanned, an animal that never forgets. We're the only
:00:56. > :01:01.party which seems to remember what life was like before the NHS and
:01:02. > :01:04.minimum wage and the global financial crash was caused by too
:01:05. > :01:10.little regulation not too much. We have a leader who can spot the
:01:11. > :01:16.elephant in the room, the lack of women on the Tory frontbench. The
:01:17. > :01:22.republicans in America have had the same idea. Theirs is a suspicious
:01:23. > :01:26.blue. Our would be deepest red. We love our Liberal Democrat bird. Mrs
:01:27. > :01:31.Thatcher called it the dead parrot when we launched it. We won the
:01:32. > :01:37.Eastbourne by-election off the Tories very soon aftered with.
:01:38. > :01:42.Perhaps it feels like we're in a coalition cage but we're escaping
:01:43. > :01:46.that soon. Why does it fly to the right? Most Liberal Democrats would
:01:47. > :01:54.want it to fly to the left. I hope it will soon.
:01:55. > :01:59.Interesting there. Let's stick with the Robert Hall pin one. He was
:02:00. > :02:05.being serious. The others were fun. It is interesting that talking about
:02:06. > :02:11.appealing to the blue collared vote, the upper working class, lower
:02:12. > :02:15.middle class, curiously now neither Mr Cameron nor Mr Miliband has great
:02:16. > :02:23.cut through with these people. But in wanting to be the Workers Party,
:02:24. > :02:29.how do you square that with choosing five old Etonians to draw up four
:02:30. > :02:34.next manifesto. Labour said one of the things was cutting inheritance
:02:35. > :02:38.tax, after all their priorities they went to privilege rather than earned
:02:39. > :02:43.income. Rebranding is not enough. The one question the modernisers
:02:44. > :02:50.never asked themselves when they took party ten years ago is the
:02:51. > :02:53.thing we know as the Conservative Party, salvageable as a brand? I'm
:02:54. > :02:59.beginning to think it isn't. If you look at all public opinion research,
:03:00. > :03:04.there are lots of people in this contrary with Conservative views.
:03:05. > :03:10.They won't vote Tory or contemplate the possibility of voting Tory. Can
:03:11. > :03:16.we get over the electoral problems by relaunching as a different
:03:17. > :03:21.pro-business, pro-worker party. That means new name, new logo. It will
:03:22. > :03:26.mean new people as well. If you say you're on the sides of what Thatcher
:03:27. > :03:30.called the strivers, the people themselves want to see you have
:03:31. > :03:35.strivers in the people who run your party so you know what we've been
:03:36. > :03:40.through, the struggles we've had. How many of the six drawing up the
:03:41. > :03:45.manifesto have had ever a mortgage. The one who's not an old Etonian
:03:46. > :03:50.went to St Paul's. He's a day schoolboy! It is interesting and it
:03:51. > :03:56.was funny you mentioned an elephant. Don't think of an elephant as the
:03:57. > :03:59.title of that book. Calling it the Workers Party draws attention to the
:04:00. > :04:05.Tories biggest electoral weakness. The idea they are a class apart. Out
:04:06. > :04:09.of touch. I think it is interesting, they have identified their elections
:04:10. > :04:18.are won or lost by this particular demo graphic of the C 1, and C 2.
:04:19. > :04:23.Mrs Thatcher got them by the shed load, Tony Blair got them. His
:04:24. > :04:29.failure in 2010 is the reason David Cameron didn't win an overall
:04:30. > :04:34.majority. I'm disappointed with the ladder. You should have a hammer or
:04:35. > :04:39.sickle! The Conservatives have a terrible brand problem. You heard
:04:40. > :04:42.them explaining why they did badly in the Wythenshawe by-election,
:04:43. > :04:47.saying there's quite a large council estate there In 1961, I think the
:04:48. > :04:53.Conservatives won a by-election back then, they were getting through to
:04:54. > :04:55.those sort of voters. There is not a single Conservative councillor in
:04:56. > :05:02.Manchester. They have this terrible problem. You're right for them to
:05:03. > :05:08.pick up on the five Etonians writing their manifesto. David Cameron sir
:05:09. > :05:16.rounding himself with his own. He doesn't have to do that. I seas
:05:17. > :05:24.things like isn't Robert Halpen great. He decides and has his own.
:05:25. > :05:28.He has some more slightly common people from St Paul's! One of the
:05:29. > :05:33.ways the Conservatives hoped to broaden their appeal is the tougher
:05:34. > :05:39.line on immigration. We learned net immigration is rising substantially.
:05:40. > :05:45.Back up over 200,000. Nigel Farage of UKIP wrapped up the rhetoric. In
:05:46. > :05:55.scores of our cities and market towns, this country, in a short
:05:56. > :06:01.space of time, has become N'Zonzi rkable whether it is --
:06:02. > :06:07.unrecognisable. Whether it is the impact on local schools and
:06:08. > :06:11.hospitals. In many parts of England you don't hear English spoken, this
:06:12. > :06:16.is not the kind of the community we want to leave to our children and
:06:17. > :06:23.grandchildren. Helen, maybe people, I assume, will love the sentiments.
:06:24. > :06:30.Others will say, this is getting... It is going down a dangerous road.
:06:31. > :06:37.Nigel Farage's wife is German and he shares a flat with Godfully Bloom,
:06:38. > :06:44.nobody knows what he's saying half of the time. You can handle the
:06:45. > :06:54.letters from Yorkshire. Alex Salmond does not make his case on Scotland
:06:55. > :07:01.for the Scottish. Let's put aside whether the policy's right or wrong.
:07:02. > :07:08.How bad, by the Tories own lights, is the fact the net figure for
:07:09. > :07:13.immigration went up 60,000? It looks really bad. If I was a Tory
:07:14. > :07:18.strategist, I'd be philosophical about it. Immigration, even if they
:07:19. > :07:23.were meeting the target, I don't think the public would believe it.
:07:24. > :07:28.It is like crime a few years ago, the crime rates had been declining
:07:29. > :07:34.for the best part of 20 years but the fear of crime remains high.
:07:35. > :07:37.There's such a degree of cynicism that regardless of your
:07:38. > :07:43.administrative record in Government, the public will remain hostile to
:07:44. > :07:47.you. This is where Nigel Farage can be potent. He said it is not about
:07:48. > :07:54.numbers. It is about community. It is about people seeing their
:07:55. > :07:59.communities change. And in the Sunday Telegraph, it was said this
:08:00. > :08:03.isn't a dog whistle, a it is a meaty bone for a bull terrier. The problem
:08:04. > :08:07.for the Government on these figures is we know why the net migration
:08:08. > :08:13.figures are not looking good. They got down the non-EU figures but the
:08:14. > :08:19.EU figures are going up. From Italy and Spain as their economies tanked,
:08:20. > :08:24.people came here. If he hadn't made such a big deal of the numbers, the
:08:25. > :08:26.Tories, I mean, you could present this as a huge success story. If you
:08:27. > :08:31.believe immigration was good for the country. You would say it doesn't
:08:32. > :08:34.matter what Labour says, the best and the brightest young people from
:08:35. > :08:39.all over Europe are voting with their feet to come to Britain. But
:08:40. > :08:43.you never hear that case being made and certainly not by Labour. They
:08:44. > :08:47.acknowledge although immigration is best in the abstract for the
:08:48. > :08:52.economy, people don't feel it in their daily lives. There's a huge
:08:53. > :08:56.vacuum for the case where immigration should be in our public
:08:57. > :09:01.life. I remember a time when the economy was in such decline there
:09:02. > :09:05.was a rush to the door in the sixties and seventies. Now we are
:09:06. > :09:10.claiming our economy's doing better than any of the other major
:09:11. > :09:15.economies bar Germany, people want to join in our success. London was a
:09:16. > :09:22.declining city until the mid-eighties. Theresa May cannot be
:09:23. > :09:27.honest. She was proposing a cap on immigration. Not going to happen.
:09:28. > :09:32.Today she is saying maybe people from poorer member states cannot
:09:33. > :09:37.come in until their economies grow. That's future accession states.
:09:38. > :09:41.That's Turkey in ten years' time It is causing divisions with the
:09:42. > :09:45.coalition. She's bashing Vince Cable. You often see Liberal
:09:46. > :09:50.Democrats bashing the Tories. You don't often see a Tory minister bash
:09:51. > :09:54.Vince Cable. She does on the immigration figures. He thought they
:09:55. > :09:59.were good news. Last week, Vince responded to the news by saying it
:10:00. > :10:03.was a policy he was happy for the gift to flunk. The problem was going
:10:04. > :10:09.for a cap. There are six moving parts. UK citizens leaving, coming
:10:10. > :10:15.back. EU citizens leaving and coming back and then third party nationals.
:10:16. > :10:23.And students coming to study. Of course. You only have control over
:10:24. > :10:31.the EU citizens. Have you to clamp down on ace strayian, Chinese or
:10:32. > :10:38.American graduates. They should have gone for the Australian points
:10:39. > :10:47.system. I don't have a pure cap on numbers just background etc. Tim
:10:48. > :10:50.Farran said in the European election either vogue Liberal Democrat or
:10:51. > :10:55.UKIP. He turned that to his advantage. It is hopeful but he's
:10:56. > :11:05.come up with a way to spin this. Labour has his special conference.
:11:06. > :11:10.Was it or was it not an event? Not sure it was the biggest moment in
:11:11. > :11:16.the party since 1918. But things fell apart in the special conference
:11:17. > :11:21.in 1981. 2004 got another special conference. Who's on board? David
:11:22. > :11:26.Owen who founded the gang of four. He's not joined but he's given them
:11:27. > :11:31.money. He's not going to sit with them in the Lord's. He's given
:11:32. > :11:37.money. They lost the gang of four. Back comes David Owen. Not historic?
:11:38. > :11:43.Why would he want it to be more significant than it was. There's a
:11:44. > :11:47.tendency to see him taking the fight to his party. Why would he want
:11:48. > :11:55.that? The fact it has not pleased Grant Shapps is not a test to see
:11:56. > :12:06.whether this has worked. It has been described as an historic moment and
:12:07. > :12:11.incremental of what John did. The trade union block voters disappeared
:12:12. > :12:19.a long time ago. They still have 50% of the vote. But 2,000 of union
:12:20. > :12:24.members voting for this guy has gone. It is a reform from 20 years
:12:25. > :12:29.ago. Welcome but not historic. Ed Miliband's stored up trouble. Len
:12:30. > :12:34.McCluskey wants a million new homes and answered to the benefit caps is
:12:35. > :12:39.not reconcilable with the deficit reduction strategy. In five years'
:12:40. > :12:44.time if there is a Labour Government it becomes very difficult. We should
:12:45. > :12:48.keep an eye on it? Always. Labour Party process is never ending.
:12:49. > :12:55.Unlike this programme. That's all from us today. Continuing reports of
:12:56. > :13:00.events in the Ukraine on the BBC News Channel. There's no Daily
:13:01. > :13:04.Politics tomorrow because of cover Arg of the Nelson Mandela memorial
:13:05. > :13:10.service at Westminster Abbey on BBC Two live. We'll be back on the Daily
:13:11. > :13:15.Politics on Tuesday at midday. We'll be back here next week with the Work
:13:16. > :13:18.and Pensions Secretary, Ian Smith. If it is Sunday, it is the Sunday
:13:19. > :13:36.Politics.