:01:21. > :01:24.Ulster Unionist whip is withdrawn from Lord Laird after he's caught up
:01:24. > :01:34.in a lobbying sting - we hear from Mike Nesbitt. And Alasdair McDonnell
:01:34. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :42:20.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2446 seconds
:42:21. > :42:24.defends his leadership of the SDLP. Northern Ireland. The Ulster
:42:24. > :42:28.Unionist peer Lord layered fans and self caught up in a row over
:42:28. > :42:34.political lobbying after agreeing to carry out Parliamentary work for pay
:42:34. > :42:39.them -- back payment. We will have reaction from the Ulster Unionist
:42:39. > :42:44.leader. Is it a case of back to the future for the STL P when its former
:42:44. > :42:52.deputy leaders Seamus Mallon and Brid Rogers appeared to
:42:52. > :42:57.emphasise... The man with his hand on the tiller, Alasdair McDonnell is
:42:58. > :43:06.with me in the studio. With me to comment on it is Alex Kane and the
:43:06. > :43:11.former Victims' Commissioner Patricia McBride. The Ulster
:43:12. > :43:18.Unionist peer Lord layered and Lord Cunningham and Lord Mackenzie have
:43:18. > :43:21.been accused of carrying out Parliamentary work for payment. All
:43:21. > :43:31.three have denied breaking any rules. Let us listen to a bit of
:43:31. > :43:46.
:43:46. > :43:52.what he said. Our political editor joins me now. This is a breaking
:43:52. > :44:00.story. It is happening as we are an air. Mike Nesbitt has issued a
:44:00. > :44:04.statement saying that Lord Laird has ruling wished the party whip.
:44:04. > :44:08.initial response of the Ulster Unionists to this episode was that
:44:09. > :44:14.Lord Laird was correct in referring himself to the Westminster
:44:15. > :44:19.authorities. He became the target of an investigation by two teams of
:44:19. > :44:25.undercover reporters. The Sunday Times posed as representatives of a
:44:25. > :44:28.South Korean energy company and the video you saw was from a separate
:44:28. > :44:35.investigation by the Daily Telegraph and it was on the Panorama
:44:35. > :44:40.programme. They posed as lobbyists on behalf of the G. The rule is that
:44:40. > :44:44.members of the House of Lords may undertake work but not work for the
:44:44. > :44:49.parliamentary duties. Lord Laird has denied any wrongdoing. Initially he
:44:49. > :44:58.was backed by the party, but having reviewed the video footage, Mike
:44:58. > :45:03.Nesbitt decided that more action was required. On Friday, he made me
:45:03. > :45:08.aware of the situation. He was at pains to say he was very confident
:45:08. > :45:12.he had done nothing wrong but in the in stretch -- in the interest of
:45:12. > :45:16.transparency he referred himself to authorities at Westminster. Waking
:45:16. > :45:24.up this morning, looking up the papers and reviewing the video
:45:24. > :45:28.footage, I decided that we needed to go a bit further, so I contacted him
:45:28. > :45:36.and the web and is being relinquished pending the outcome of
:45:36. > :45:43.the Westminster review. We will take it from there. Has he resigned or
:45:43. > :45:51.was it taken away? It has been taken away, it has been suspended. We are
:45:51. > :45:56.making a gesture to say that this is a particularly serious series of
:45:56. > :46:01.allegations. We want Westminster to do what they have to do. The Ulster
:46:01. > :46:05.Unionist Party expect high standards of all our elected representatives
:46:05. > :46:10.and that includes looking at rules and not saying how can I work around
:46:10. > :46:15.that, that involves looking at a rule and saying how do I give
:46:15. > :46:21.meaning to both this period and the letter of that rule. You are
:46:21. > :46:27.concerned that he has not stuck to the spirit of the rules? There is
:46:27. > :46:32.some evidence. On the face of it, it does not look good and I expect our
:46:32. > :46:35.representatives to honour the spirit as well as the letter of rules and
:46:35. > :46:40.laws. David Cameron made a speech in which he predicted that lobbying
:46:40. > :46:48.could be a big scandal, is this something which applies not only to
:46:48. > :46:52.Westminster but also to Stormont? This would be an appropriate time to
:46:52. > :46:54.look at it. As you walk around Stormont, it is always full of
:46:54. > :46:59.people and some of them are there, obviously lobbying, and perhaps we
:46:59. > :47:03.need to look at some clarity about the status and the relationships and
:47:03. > :47:08.to make sure that nothing is happening, either by omission or
:47:08. > :47:16.ownership that is not the way it should be. That was Mike Nesbitt
:47:16. > :47:23.speaking to you earlier. What do we know about these two separate sting
:47:23. > :47:28.operations that appear to involve Lord Laird? The Daily Telegraph,
:47:28. > :47:35.which has been working with Panorama reported that Lord Laird had told of
:47:35. > :47:39.their undercover reporters that he was interested in taking a payment
:47:39. > :47:46.of �2000 per month to represent a company that is backing the
:47:46. > :47:53.interests of the G. No money was paid over. In relation to the other
:47:53. > :47:56.investigation, he is quoted in that newspaper saying that whilst he
:47:56. > :48:00.would not ask questions, what happens in the House of Lords is
:48:00. > :48:06.that appears at their friends and colleagues to as questions. That is
:48:06. > :48:09.the thrust of the other report. Lord Laird is saying he is confident he
:48:10. > :48:14.has broken no rules and he has passed this on to the Parliamentary
:48:14. > :48:20.authorities. The question will be whether you can keep to the letter
:48:20. > :48:27.of the rules and not necessarily to the spirit of them. What are the
:48:27. > :48:30.implications for the Ulster Unionist Party? It is an embarrassment. That
:48:30. > :48:34.is why Mike Nesbitt has moved quickly. It is not the first time
:48:34. > :48:39.that Lord Laird has been involved in controversy. Back in March,
:48:39. > :48:43.questions were asked about his role as paid adviser to Christopher
:48:43. > :48:48.Knight who was interested in buying the Belfast Giants. That got
:48:48. > :48:54.embroiled in scandal when it emerged he was on the sex offenders register
:48:54. > :49:04.in Florida. Lord Laird referred to the charges against him as a minor
:49:04. > :49:05.
:49:05. > :49:10.misdemeanour but then apologised for that comment. Thank you. Alex Kane
:49:10. > :49:13.joins me now, he is a former director of communications for the
:49:13. > :49:21.Ulster Unionist Party and former Victims' Commissioner Patricia
:49:21. > :49:23.McBride. How damaging is this situation? It is embarrassing. It is
:49:23. > :49:33.embarrassing for Mike Nesbitt because it had nothing to do with
:49:33. > :49:35.
:49:35. > :49:42.him. It is to do with a peer who is linked to the party. If you listen
:49:42. > :49:48.to him this morning, he used the term when he watched the tape that
:49:48. > :49:52.it was an edifying viewing. If you look at how he dealt with Ken
:49:52. > :50:02.Maginnis and David McNarry, he moved quickly, he wants to close this
:50:02. > :50:04.
:50:04. > :50:09.down. It is nothing to do with him or the party. What do you think?
:50:10. > :50:14.think he should have done his due diligence. He was criticised. He did
:50:14. > :50:21.not think it was his role to undertake due diligence in concern
:50:21. > :50:25.with the Belfast chance. He should have learned from that lesson.
:50:25. > :50:28.Tomorrow the Special Advisers' Bill reaches the final stages in the
:50:28. > :50:36.Assembly. At one point it looked like it would fall after the ST LP
:50:36. > :50:40.threaten to lodge an petition of concern. It changed its mind.
:50:40. > :50:45.Alasdair McDonnell says the party will probably abstain when it comes
:50:45. > :50:49.to the vote. As a result, the bill is expected to pass. Whatever the
:50:49. > :50:56.outcome, has the controversy damage the party? The murder of Mary
:50:56. > :50:59.Travers shocked community used to killing. For decades, her wore her
:50:59. > :51:03.brief in silence until Sinn Fein appointed Mary McArdle, the only
:51:03. > :51:09.person convicted in connection with the killing, as a Special Adviser to
:51:09. > :51:13.the Culture Minister Carol McCallan. At the time of the murder, Alistair
:51:13. > :51:20.McDonnell was the family doctor and he understood the herd them
:51:20. > :51:29.appointment will cause. Initially the party appeared sympathetic. It
:51:29. > :51:33.changed its mind when they would not accept amendments. We have made
:51:33. > :51:36.every attempt that we possibly could to shape this into good law and it
:51:37. > :51:44.has not been successful. I think at this stage we are considering
:51:44. > :51:51.supporting a petition of concern. Will you do it? I think we will.Ann
:51:51. > :52:00.Travers met with party leaders who were less banking to talk about it.
:52:00. > :52:03.Can I ask you how the meeting went? Show some respect! Finally the party
:52:03. > :52:13.appeared to have a change of heart and agreed not to block the bill and
:52:13. > :52:13.
:52:13. > :52:18.denied it was ever an option. Crime who was going to veto the bill?
:52:19. > :52:22.There were no hints coming from the party. Dominic Bradley raised the
:52:22. > :52:29.issue that because Jim Allister was being so awkward and unhelpful, we
:52:29. > :52:34.were having great difficulty. more than a week, the party wrestled
:52:34. > :52:39.publicly with the issue of what to do about the Special Advisers' Bill
:52:39. > :52:42.before coming to a conclusion loaded with potential pitfalls. In a way
:52:42. > :52:47.they were dammed if they did and downed if they did not. The
:52:47. > :52:52.impression is left of the party that is not sure where they are going.
:52:53. > :52:59.There have been pressure from the party of old guard. The macro and
:52:59. > :53:02.younger all coming from Mass was shot dead. To put those people who
:53:02. > :53:11.have that type of record into the top of the administration in
:53:11. > :53:16.Stormont is to actually negate any of the basic philosophies of the
:53:16. > :53:21.Good Friday Agreement in terms of reconciliation. It is giving two
:53:21. > :53:25.fingers to the Unionist community. When Seamus Mallon and Brid Rogers
:53:25. > :53:29.weighed in, it made things impossible for Alasdair McDonnell
:53:29. > :53:34.who had looked as though he was beginning to get to his feet steady
:53:34. > :53:38.on the ground and get a grip of things. The role of the leader is to
:53:38. > :53:42.make a decision and to lay down policy and get on with it and seemed
:53:42. > :53:48.to be a few days when the party was struggling. Alex Attwood struggled
:53:48. > :53:51.publicly when he was asked questions. People clearly felt
:53:51. > :53:59.strongly. Some people in Sinn Fein were suggesting that some
:53:59. > :54:07.individuals may support the petition of concern. Alasdair McDonnell is
:54:07. > :54:10.with me now. How difficult has it been to have the issue of your
:54:10. > :54:15.leadership raised and the direction of the party raised in the way it
:54:15. > :54:22.has been? It has not been difficult. It is a difficult issue. We are
:54:22. > :54:27.dealing with it in a democratic fashion. We discuss things. Other
:54:27. > :54:33.parties operate difficult -- differently. We discuss things
:54:33. > :54:37.openly and honestly. This was a difficult issue, in some ways it was
:54:37. > :54:40.the lesser of two evils, there is a serious victims issue out there that
:54:40. > :54:45.has been neglected for many years and victims are brushed under the
:54:45. > :54:51.carpet, brushed out of the way by the present Executive at Stormont in
:54:51. > :54:55.many ways and the victims issue has to be one of our priorities. We
:54:55. > :54:59.cannot create the processes we want to see until we deal honestly with
:54:59. > :55:05.the past. It is embarrassing that the two former deputy leaders of
:55:05. > :55:10.your party appeared to weigh in and effectively criticise the tact you
:55:10. > :55:14.appeared to be taking? I am not embarrassed at all. I respect their
:55:14. > :55:19.point of view. They are members of the party in good standing and they
:55:19. > :55:27.are welcome to express their point of view. That is the culture of the
:55:27. > :55:35.party. We are not a top-down party, we are a bottom-up party. We listen
:55:35. > :55:43.to them. We listen to victims. that demonstrate that you got it
:55:43. > :55:47.wrong in the first place? No, I am sorry, things involved in politics.
:55:47. > :55:55.We are between a rock and a hard place in terms of this bill. The
:55:55. > :55:58.bill is flawed, we want to see a better bill, we worked very hard to
:55:58. > :56:01.repair that Bill. Jim Allister would not tolerate the repairs and neither
:56:01. > :56:06.would the DUP and Sinn Fein voted against our amendments. In
:56:06. > :56:10.frustration, one of our members did raise the question of the
:56:10. > :56:20.possibility of a petition of concern. He raised it in a
:56:20. > :56:21.
:56:21. > :56:29.conversation with me. We deal with facts. The facts were that that was
:56:29. > :56:32.a possibility. He said that he thought he probably would. He was
:56:32. > :56:38.quite entitled to say that because he was deeply frustrated and angry
:56:38. > :56:47.about the way he had been treated. Our membership has victims as a top
:56:47. > :56:52.priority. We will continue to do that going forward. Sorry. I have
:56:52. > :57:02.worked for 30 years as a GP. Ann Travers was a patient of mine, an
:57:02. > :57:03.
:57:03. > :57:12.employee of mine. Ann Travers asked us for a meeting. We matter.
:57:12. > :57:17.thought you were getting it wrong. will not criticise Ann Travers.
:57:18. > :57:25.Quite simply, I have been dealing with victims, I have a lot of
:57:25. > :57:31.people, patience of mine walking around with bullet holes in them. I
:57:31. > :57:36.do not need any lessons from anyone in terms of victims. Why are you
:57:36. > :57:42.going to probably abstain tomorrow? Is the bill is flawed. We will not
:57:42. > :57:46.vote for it. It is the lesser of two evils because it is the issue of
:57:46. > :57:53.victims, the majority of victims we have spoken to feel that this bill,
:57:53. > :57:57.bad as it is, let it go and let the courts deal with it. The vast
:57:57. > :58:04.majority of victims, I would have thought would have been much happier
:58:04. > :58:11.for you to support it. Ann Travers has a point of view. There are a
:58:11. > :58:18.whole range of points of view. I am on good terms with Michael
:58:18. > :58:24.Gallagher. Paul Kavanagh says he was a victim. He was convicted of
:58:24. > :58:30.killing in the IRA and he says it is unfair. There is a hierarchy of
:58:30. > :58:32.people. There are a handful of people who are an elite within Sinn
:58:32. > :58:38.Fein. There are interests unfortunately do not take precedence
:58:38. > :58:45.over the interests of thousands of victims. It means that Paul
:58:45. > :58:50.Kavanagh's victimhood and needs are down the pecking order compared with
:58:50. > :58:54.the innocent victims that are out there. Why not support the
:58:54. > :58:59.legislation because by abstaining it looks like you're balancing Ann
:58:59. > :59:04.Travers concerns whether Paul Kavanagh's concerns. I am sorry if
:59:04. > :59:08.you want to look at it that way. We are looking at this, it is a flawed
:59:08. > :59:12.bill, we have made the point it is flawed, we would have supported the
:59:12. > :59:22.bill had our amendments to make the bill a decent bill been accepted.
:59:22. > :59:22.
:59:22. > :59:26.They were not accepted and we are withdrawing. Quite simply, that is
:59:26. > :59:29.the honourable position. Three members of your party are concerned
:59:29. > :59:35.about this. They are coming under an enormous amount of pressure. There
:59:35. > :59:40.is a lot of speculation that somebody might break ranks. It only
:59:40. > :59:46.takes one of your MLAs to break ranks and a petition of concern
:59:46. > :59:54.could be raised. There is a lot of spinning going on. Are you sure that
:59:54. > :00:01.will not happen? I am quite sure it will not happen. I am absolutely
:00:01. > :00:03.sure. Do you wanted in writing? The party had never been more united and
:00:03. > :00:11.never more functional and never more clear-cut as to whether priorities
:00:11. > :00:18.lie. You are clear that all of your party members will abstain? That is
:00:18. > :00:25.a different question. You asked me was a sure that nobody would sign a
:00:25. > :00:32.petition of concern. Are you sure that all the members will abstain?
:00:32. > :00:40.Yes. Let us hear from Alex Kane and Patricia McBride. You wrote a
:00:40. > :00:42.critical piece about their handling of the situation. You said that the
:00:42. > :00:51.party had been embarrassed and shamed into changing its position.
:00:51. > :00:55.Do you retract any of that? I do not. He talks about the use of
:00:55. > :01:00.probably in relation to what Dominic Bradley said. It was the use of that
:01:00. > :01:03.and the fact it was not stamped out immediately by you as leader which
:01:04. > :01:10.caused Brid Rogers and Seamus Mallon to enter the debate. What made that
:01:10. > :01:14.newsworthy is the fact they normally do not. That is the first time for a
:01:14. > :01:22.long time I have heard either of them coming to a public debate and
:01:22. > :01:26.say something, whether you like it or not, it sounded critical. The
:01:27. > :01:36.fact that you have ended up saying we are going to abstain. That also
:01:37. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:45.seems weak, because you're either for a bill or against a bill. It is
:01:45. > :01:52.a personal criticism in one sense, but it is a criticism I have made of
:01:52. > :01:56.the UUP and the DUP. I do not know where you stand on this. Do you want
:01:56. > :02:05.to answer that? He is objecting to the democracy that works within my
:02:05. > :02:15.party. We have tried to fix this bill and they will not allow us.
:02:15. > :02:19.
:02:19. > :02:26.DUP, UUP, TUC work to obstruct any amendments. We are united in this.
:02:26. > :02:34.We are quite able to stand united tomorrow or any other day. You are
:02:34. > :02:37.former Victims' Commissioner, where do the victims fit in? We need to be
:02:37. > :02:42.aware that Alasdair McDonnell has said that he believes that should be
:02:42. > :02:47.a hierarchy of victims. That is concerning. It undermines everything
:02:47. > :02:51.that his party has stood for up until this point. A lot of people
:02:51. > :02:59.would agree with that. It is an about-face in party policy. The
:02:59. > :03:03.second issue regarding this is that the public opinion believes that the
:03:03. > :03:08.intervention of Seamus Mallon and Brid Rogers has had an impact on
:03:08. > :03:12.this. I am asking, where are the victims who have been consulted? My
:03:12. > :03:18.colleagues and I established the forum for victims and survivors,
:03:18. > :03:22.that is the proper mechanism. Has the party been to that for? Who have
:03:22. > :03:32.a spoken to, I am not aware from my discussions of people over the last
:03:32. > :03:37.
:03:38. > :03:44.week. Let us look at the political weight in 60 seconds. -- wake. Would
:03:44. > :03:52.they are wooden day, the STL P finally decided not to block the
:03:52. > :04:01.special advisers Bell? We will not be supporting a petition of concern.
:04:01. > :04:08.Sinn Fein called a bad law. This bill is for anyone who has been hurt
:04:08. > :04:11.in the past. After two years in prison, Marian Price was released.
:04:11. > :04:21.We do not feel anyone should lose their liberty on the basis of that,
:04:21. > :04:47.
:04:47. > :04:51.it is not open to challenge. Siam illustrate whether the party will
:04:51. > :04:57.make the decision to fish or cut bait. Only implement the Good Friday
:04:57. > :05:02.Agreement will they allow it to be undermined by bad law. A final