:00:38. > :00:43.It's Sunday morning and this is the Sunday Politics.
:00:44. > :00:44.Her position may be safe for the time-being.
:00:45. > :00:48.But what about Theresa May's policies?
:00:49. > :00:51.As ministers drops hints about easing the public sector pay
:00:52. > :00:55.cap, is the Conservative Party undergoing a rebrand?
:00:56. > :00:58.Jeremy Corbyn takes to the streets to call for an end to austerity.
:00:59. > :01:01.But with his party's divisions on Brexit thrust into the open
:01:02. > :01:06.is his post-election honeymoon coming to an end?
:01:07. > :01:11.And, with Brexit talks under way, we know there's plenty at stake
:01:12. > :01:13.for Britain, as it negotiates a new relationship.
:01:14. > :01:16.But what's at stake for the remaining EU countries?
:01:17. > :01:20.We speak to a leading European politician.
:01:21. > :01:22.And coming up here, the DUP's Simon Hamilton
:01:23. > :01:25.and Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd will be here in the studio,
:01:26. > :01:27.as talks at Stormont look like they could be fizzling out.
:01:28. > :01:40.And, on the eve of Wimbledon, I'm joined by the three top seats
:01:41. > :01:42.of political commentary, Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott
:01:43. > :01:47.They'll be serving up aces throughout the programme.
:01:48. > :01:50.Is the Government going to change its policy on public sector pay?
:01:51. > :01:53.The Conservative manifesto stated that the 1% cap on annual pay rises
:01:54. > :01:57.for public sector workers would remain in place
:01:58. > :02:01.until 2020, saving up to ?5 billion a year by then.
:02:02. > :02:06.Earlier this week there were rumblings that the policy
:02:07. > :02:09.would be reviewed, before the Treasury weighed in to suggest
:02:10. > :02:13.The new Environment Secretary, Michael Gove, was asked about it
:02:14. > :02:18.on the Andrew Marr show earlier today.
:02:19. > :02:21.I was Education Secretary and I know the schoolteachers pay review body
:02:22. > :02:30.Not a poodle but they work underneath the overall strategy
:02:31. > :02:32.set by the Chancellor, set by the government.
:02:33. > :02:34.They take account of that, but they also take account
:02:35. > :02:37.of other questions as well, including the number of people
:02:38. > :02:40.who are entering the profession, whether we need to have an increase
:02:41. > :02:43.in pay in order to ensure we get the best people in the profession.
:02:44. > :02:46.These pay review bodies have been set up in order to ensure we can
:02:47. > :02:49.have authoritative advice on what is required in order
:02:50. > :02:51.to ensure the public services on which we rely are effectively
:02:52. > :02:59.staffed and the people within them are effectively supported.
:03:00. > :03:01.I think we should respect the integrity of that process.
:03:02. > :03:04.I'm not an individual, I am a member of the government,
:03:05. > :03:13.Michael Gove. Two U-turns in one day, maybe going for the hat-trick
:03:14. > :03:17.this week. It sounds they are thinking of ways of loosening up the
:03:18. > :03:21.pay freeze but Mr Hammond doesn't want it to come out until the autumn
:03:22. > :03:24.budget. That is absolutely right. My understanding is the deal is already
:03:25. > :03:29.done. We've reported this week that 20 quite senior Tory MPs went to see
:03:30. > :03:34.the new chief of staff on Wednesday, to make it very clear indeed they
:03:35. > :03:37.would be voting for a budget that allowed the public sector pay freeze
:03:38. > :03:44.to continue. Fine, we're going to do this, we're going to give fresh
:03:45. > :03:48.advice to the pay review bodies that there remit has been expanded but we
:03:49. > :03:53.cannot do it today because it's a victory for comrades Jeremy Corbyn
:03:54. > :03:58.if we do. There we see, in a sense, the weakness of ten Downing St. They
:03:59. > :04:03.can't direct this policy themselves. They are overruled by Mr Hammond
:04:04. > :04:06.from Mr 11, and it only takes about 20 Tory MPs to say, hey, this is
:04:07. > :04:11.what we want and at the very least the government has to listen to them
:04:12. > :04:14.very seriously. They have to listen to the man they have to act, because
:04:15. > :04:18.that is the fragility of the new House of Commons. We saw it last
:04:19. > :04:25.week on another issue. If you have 20 people saying hey has got to rise
:04:26. > :04:28.in the public sector, beyond the cap, pay will rise in the public
:04:29. > :04:32.sector beyond the cap, because they won't be up to get it through the
:04:33. > :04:36.House of Commons. I think there are other issues involved beyond the
:04:37. > :04:40.numerical situation in the Commons. Lots of MPs came back after that
:04:41. > :04:44.election, including Gavin Barrell who is in number ten, who lost his
:04:45. > :04:49.seat, saying teachers and others were saying we can't carry on with
:04:50. > :04:55.the pay restraint up until 2020. I think it is going to happen for a
:04:56. > :04:59.combination of reasons. What happens to deficit reduction? The deficit is
:05:00. > :05:04.going to rise this year. There were a few Tory MPs but not many who feel
:05:05. > :05:07.it is wrong for the party to capitulate, having made such a point
:05:08. > :05:12.of principle about posterity, that it looks very, very week just to be
:05:13. > :05:16.caving in. I think Steve is right. This isn't just about the maths and
:05:17. > :05:20.the -- in the House of Commons, Tory MPs are frightened in a way I have
:05:21. > :05:26.never known them frightened before, at the momentum behind Jeremy Corbyn
:05:27. > :05:32.at the moment. There is a real feeling about the Tory brand being
:05:33. > :05:35.really in a very, very difficult place at the moment, where Tories
:05:36. > :05:40.look nasty, there isn't nearly enough sympathy and it feels
:05:41. > :05:45.politically impossible to stick with the pay limits as they are. That may
:05:46. > :05:50.be one reason that will keep Tory MPs in line, because the last thing
:05:51. > :05:54.they want at the moment is an election. When they say the country
:05:55. > :05:59.doesn't need on another election it means the Tory party doesn't mean
:06:00. > :06:05.another election, isn't that right? That's right and I think the view is
:06:06. > :06:07.settled. Notwithstanding frenzied speculation in Sunday newspapers,
:06:08. > :06:14.the daily newspapers are a lot more responsible! LAUGHTER
:06:15. > :06:20.But every Tory MP says to Reza until the end of Brexit, we don't want to
:06:21. > :06:24.open Pandora's box. -- Theresa May until the end of Brexit. The problem
:06:25. > :06:30.still remains, she does have a lot less authority, which is why you get
:06:31. > :06:34.bigwigs left, right and Centre for Michael Gove to Damian Green and
:06:35. > :06:38.Justine Greening rattling that instant more money. You have to keep
:06:39. > :06:43.the balance by leaving by consensus and a general for all, which we are
:06:44. > :06:45.in danger of looking like this morning. OK, we will see.
:06:46. > :06:48.So it's not exactly what you might call "strong and stable",
:06:49. > :06:55.but after a turbulent couple of weeks, it appears
:06:56. > :06:56.the Prime Minister has brought less instability,
:06:57. > :07:01.The Government's legislative programme is in place and Brexit
:07:02. > :07:04.So has Theresa May done enough to steady the ship
:07:05. > :07:10.It's been an action-packed story of suspense, drama and intrigue.
:07:11. > :07:19.The latest instalment, hotly anticipated.
:07:20. > :07:23."I got us into this mess", she told her MPs after the election,
:07:24. > :07:26.This week, Theresa May tried to do just that.
:07:27. > :07:30.To get the Democratic Unionist Party's ten MPs to back
:07:31. > :07:32.the minority government, the PM pledged ?1 billion
:07:33. > :07:41.Opposition parties branded it a bung and as the week went on,
:07:42. > :07:43.some have their own MPs who are less than enthusiastic.
:07:44. > :07:47.Mr Speaker, I can barely put into words my anger at the deal
:07:48. > :07:53.But having signed that piece of paper, the Tories now had a tight
:07:54. > :07:56.working majority of 13 to pass key Commons votes.
:07:57. > :08:00.It was, at the very least, breathing space.
:08:01. > :08:04.So, a deep breath and, midweek, and Labour proposal that the cap
:08:05. > :08:08.on public sector pay rises should be lifted.
:08:09. > :08:15.Some Tory MPs, including ministers, agreed, in principle.
:08:16. > :08:17.Labour's challenge failed, but the Government had
:08:18. > :08:21.We will listen to what people in this house have said before
:08:22. > :08:25.The public sector pay cap, by the way, was designed
:08:26. > :08:27.to save ?5 billion for the public purse by 2020.
:08:28. > :08:31.But the policy looks like it could be on its last legs.
:08:32. > :08:34.Thursday was the big moment, the Queen's Speech, which passed,
:08:35. > :08:41.Tory support for a Labour amendment led to a government pledge to front
:08:42. > :08:44.abortions in England for women from Northern Ireland.
:08:45. > :08:49.The ayes have it, the ayes have it, unlock.
:08:50. > :08:52.The last-minute compromises in this Queen's Speech suggests
:08:53. > :08:55.the Prime Minister is acutely aware of the arithmetic in Parliament.
:08:56. > :08:59.She will have to listen more to her own MPs and they know that.
:09:00. > :09:02.One former Cabinet minister told me every time seven of us get together,
:09:03. > :09:08.And yet, after this week, the Prime Minister may not be such
:09:09. > :09:13.I think the ship is certainly steadier.
:09:14. > :09:17.I think there is a degree of what I call a rolling probation
:09:18. > :09:18.for the Prime Minister at the moment.
:09:19. > :09:26.And I think the Prime Minister's performances in the chamber,
:09:27. > :09:28.Prime Minister's Questions, we had the first one back this
:09:29. > :09:31.week, where she reasserted a deal of her authority.
:09:32. > :09:37.And I think there is a great deal of relief and respect for that.
:09:38. > :09:39.Others say the party should reflect on more
:09:40. > :09:47.It doesn't matter if we have Alexander the great or the Ark
:09:48. > :09:49.Angel Gabriel as leader, unless we have fundamental reform.
:09:50. > :09:52.At the moment, often we have these policies but it's like a whole load
:09:53. > :09:55.of clothes pegs without a washing line, bringing them together.
:09:56. > :09:57.So we need to explain what we are about.
:09:58. > :09:59.The Conservative Party is there to help working
:10:00. > :10:02.The Conservative Party is there because we are the party
:10:03. > :10:05.of the ladder of opportunity to get people up that ladder.
:10:06. > :10:08.We have a moral purpose, too, just as the Labour Party do.
:10:09. > :10:13.Several MPs told me the debate within the party is still when,
:10:14. > :10:18.Anybody who says it will definitely be Theresa May as the leader
:10:19. > :10:21.of the Conservative Party going into the next general election
:10:22. > :10:28.It might be, I have to say at the moment it's
:10:29. > :10:36.But conversely, there is absolutely no appetite whatsoever,
:10:37. > :10:39.thre are no manoeuvres going on, no operations going on to instigate
:10:40. > :10:41.a leadership challenge to have a new leader
:10:42. > :10:48.of the Conservative Party in the immediate future.
:10:49. > :10:51.One theory is that Theresa May stays on as PM to negotiate
:10:52. > :10:54.To be something of a scapegoat for what will be,
:10:55. > :10:59.at best controversial, at worst, deeply unpopular.
:11:00. > :11:03.And then, to move aside to make way for a less tarnished leader, who can
:11:04. > :11:06.take the Conservatives into the next general election.
:11:07. > :11:14.It's the immediate future Theresa May will be focused on.
:11:15. > :11:17.This week, a G20 meeting in Hamburg with other world leader chums.
:11:18. > :11:19.Back home, she can't take her friends for granted
:11:20. > :11:21.and told her own MPs, she'd serve as long
:11:22. > :11:30.Joining me now is the Minister for International Trade Greg Hands.
:11:31. > :11:36.Welcome to the programme. Good morning, Andrew. Do you agree with
:11:37. > :11:41.your old Treasury boss, George Osborne, who said easing up on
:11:42. > :11:45.austerity would risk the mistakes of the past which led Britain to the
:11:46. > :11:49.point where there was no money left? There is no change in government
:11:50. > :11:53.policy. We must live within our means. That is the right thing to
:11:54. > :11:57.do. We have reduced the deficit by three quarters since 2010. That is
:11:58. > :12:01.work that is still ongoing. It's very important that we keep budget
:12:02. > :12:05.discipline, because it's impossible to pay for our public services
:12:06. > :12:09.without having a growing economy, the taxes coming into pay for all
:12:10. > :12:12.the services people want and expect. How can you continue to cut the
:12:13. > :12:16.deficit, it's actually rising this year compared to last year, how do
:12:17. > :12:21.you continue to cut the deficit? ?1 billion to find for the DUP, you
:12:22. > :12:24.have to find the money you could in debt because you couldn't change
:12:25. > :12:26.national insurance, and if you loosen up on the public sector pay
:12:27. > :12:31.freeze, you have to find money for that as well, how do you do both?
:12:32. > :12:36.It's important to have a prudent policy, a prudent fiscal budget
:12:37. > :12:40.policy. The Chancellor will be laying out his budget in the
:12:41. > :12:44.autumn... How do you square the circle and me all these demands?
:12:45. > :12:49.Your own ministers are talking about them and yet continue with deficit
:12:50. > :12:53.reduction? It's very important to consider what we have done on public
:12:54. > :12:56.sector pay. Actually by having that cap in place we have saved around
:12:57. > :13:01.200,000 public sector jobs. We have done a lot for the lower paid public
:13:02. > :13:06.sector workers by raising the personal allowance... I'm not asking
:13:07. > :13:10.about that, I'm asking how do you meet the demand for extra public
:13:11. > :13:13.spending and continue with deficit reduction? I think over the last
:13:14. > :13:18.seven years the government has had a very good record on this, Andrew. In
:13:19. > :13:21.terms of being able to reduce the deficit... While still putting in
:13:22. > :13:25.place increases in public funding. For example, in the Conservative
:13:26. > :13:30.manifesto we pledged 4 billion extra on schools and 8 billion extra on
:13:31. > :13:35.health. We can do the two together, but it does require that budget
:13:36. > :13:38.discipline overall, making sure that something is to get out of control.
:13:39. > :13:43.You were a number two in the Treasury during George Osborne's
:13:44. > :13:46.tenure. You protected pensioners with triple lock, free bus passes,
:13:47. > :13:50.the Winter fuel allowance but trebled tuition fees on young folk
:13:51. > :13:53.made it impossible for many of them to get a foot on the property
:13:54. > :13:58.ladder. Is it any wonder young people to vote for you? I think
:13:59. > :14:02.that's an important question for us and an important question as we look
:14:03. > :14:06.at the election. That's why I asked the question, what is the answer? We
:14:07. > :14:10.have to improve our offer and young people and provide more housing. I
:14:11. > :14:13.think we need to look at more money into schools, improving our schools
:14:14. > :14:18.as we go forward and making sure that cities like mine in London are
:14:19. > :14:21.made more liveable and more cost-effective for young people. Why
:14:22. > :14:25.haven't you done that in the past seven years? Instead you have
:14:26. > :14:30.secured the pensioners and you have knocked young folk may have turned
:14:31. > :14:34.against you. Why should young people believe in capitalism if they have
:14:35. > :14:37.no chance of accruing any capital? I think what we have done over the
:14:38. > :14:41.last seven years has actually been to build more homes. We just need to
:14:42. > :14:44.build the more quickly. Your record of building homes is even worse than
:14:45. > :14:53.the last Labour government and you know that. 62% of 18-24 -year-olds
:14:54. > :14:56.voted Labour. 62%. 56 of 25-35 -year-olds. You didn't build enough
:14:57. > :15:02.houses for these people. That is one of the reasons why we are addressing
:15:03. > :15:05.that. Why haven't you addressed it? 1.5 million new homes over the
:15:06. > :15:09.course of this Parliament and what we have done that with things like
:15:10. > :15:13.starter homes, shared ownership, it's much more flexible forms of
:15:14. > :15:15.tenure to make sure homes are more attractive to younger people,
:15:16. > :15:19.particularly younger people starting off in life. Ministers have bent
:15:20. > :15:23.telling me this for seven years and you never do it. -- been telling me.
:15:24. > :15:26.That is what the programme is designed to do. We have been
:15:27. > :15:31.building more homes. We need to accelerate that. We'll phone need an
:15:32. > :15:36.open conversation about how we improve elsewhere for young people
:15:37. > :15:41.in schools and universities and so on that. OK, Brexit. You are the
:15:42. > :15:49.International Trade Minister. Will the UK leave the customs union in
:15:50. > :15:54.March 2019, and if it doesn't make its own trade deals? Our position on
:15:55. > :15:59.exit and the customs union is unchanged. What is it? To leave the
:16:00. > :16:03.single market and Customs union. But other components of free trade
:16:04. > :16:07.agreement with the European Union and customs arrangements, so we have
:16:08. > :16:11.frictionless free trade with the European Union. Will that happen by
:16:12. > :16:15.March 2019? That is the negotiation that has just started. I am not
:16:16. > :16:20.putting an end state on that. What I'm saying is the objective in this
:16:21. > :16:23.is to make sure that we frictionless trade with the EU and come to a
:16:24. > :16:28.future customs arrangements to buy it's not clear we will be able to
:16:29. > :16:32.start making our own trade deals after March 2019? Once we leave the
:16:33. > :16:38.European Union, yes, I am clear we will be able to make our own trade
:16:39. > :16:41.deals. March 2019? When we leave the single union and the customs union
:16:42. > :16:44.we come to an arrangement with the European Union. We will be able to
:16:45. > :16:52.make free trade deals but at the moment we can't because we are in
:16:53. > :16:55.the EU. Will you be able to make them if there is a transition
:16:56. > :16:58.period? That remains to be seen. You might not. We have only just started
:16:59. > :17:00.the negotiation. You had a year to think about it. To think about a
:17:01. > :17:03.transition period and when it might start and then... What we are clear
:17:04. > :17:08.about is there should be no cliff edge for businesses in the UK and
:17:09. > :17:11.the European Union and to make sure the trade continues as frictionless
:17:12. > :17:14.as possible. We don't yet know if we will be able to make our free trade
:17:15. > :17:22.deals during the transitional period? It could be postponed until
:17:23. > :17:26.2021 or 22? We don't yet know if we're going to have a transition
:17:27. > :17:30.period, to be fair. The objection in all of this is to have frictionless
:17:31. > :17:31.free trade with the European Union and come to a customs arrangement.
:17:32. > :17:47.That is the objective. You are minister for London so let's
:17:48. > :17:52.turn to the Grenfell Tower disaster. Kensington and Chelsea Council is in
:17:53. > :17:59.chaos. The leader resigned on Friday and the chief executive has gone as
:18:00. > :18:04.well. That is what I mean, it is in chaos. We're waiting for a new
:18:05. > :18:08.leader for the council because it is important for local democracy to
:18:09. > :18:16.have its say. It is quite a big thing for government to to go in and
:18:17. > :18:23.put a Council on special measures. It is in a state, you have lost the
:18:24. > :18:27.chief executive, you've lost the council leader, it is lacking in
:18:28. > :18:31.experience and surely if there is ever a time to send in the
:18:32. > :18:38.Commissioners to get a grip of this crisis, it is now? We are waiting
:18:39. > :18:43.for a new leader. There is an interim chief executive coming over
:18:44. > :18:46.from Lewisham Council. Clearly, there will be lessons to be learned
:18:47. > :18:54.and that is a matter for the public enquiry. There will be an election
:18:55. > :18:58.within the Conservative group on the council. There are very capable
:18:59. > :19:06.councillors in Kensington and Chelsea. We haven't seen much sign
:19:07. > :19:14.of that, did you have any involvement in the resignation of
:19:15. > :19:19.the council leader? I spoke to him, like all council leaders do. I spoke
:19:20. > :19:24.to him, I spoke to the previous leader and the leader of might of
:19:25. > :19:28.the council. It is natural that MPs speak to their council leaders on an
:19:29. > :19:36.ongoing basis. We know the Council opted for cheaper cladding because
:19:37. > :19:39.they want good costs. So that cheese pairing is inevitable in town halls
:19:40. > :19:48.when central government, has yours has done, cut their budget by 40%? I
:19:49. > :19:53.don't accept the premise to that because a lot of financing has been
:19:54. > :19:59.devolved back to local government. But you have cut local government
:20:00. > :20:02.financing by 40%. There is 200 billion available over the rest of
:20:03. > :20:09.this Parliament to the local councils and we believe that is
:20:10. > :20:12.fair. Kensington and Chelsea Council spent ?8.6 million on this
:20:13. > :20:19.refurbishment. It is not necessarily a shortage of funds. Indeed, they
:20:20. > :20:25.have 274 million in reserves and they put people at risk to save
:20:26. > :20:30.?300,000. If that is not a case of putting in the Commissioners, what
:20:31. > :20:34.is? That is a matter for the ongoing enquiry and the lessons to be
:20:35. > :20:37.learned from that and how it happened is a matter for the
:20:38. > :20:40.different enquiries, including the public enquiries. Thank you.
:20:41. > :20:43.Theresa May's stated aim in calling the election last month was to get
:20:44. > :20:46.a stronger hand in the Brexit negotiations - in the end, the
:20:47. > :20:50.But it's worth remembering that there's a lot at stake for both
:20:51. > :20:54.After all, the UK is a major net contributor to the EU budget
:20:55. > :20:58.and a big trading partner for the 27 countries remaining in the EU.
:20:59. > :21:10.When Mr Davis and Mr Barnier kicked off the talk a couple of weeks ago,
:21:11. > :21:11.the tone was businesslike and broadly constructive.
:21:12. > :21:14.The two men agreed that the first age of the negotiation
:21:15. > :21:18.The rights of EU citizens living here and British
:21:19. > :21:23.The financial settlement that the UK will pay the EU,
:21:24. > :21:27.On citizens rights, the EU published their proposals three weeks ago,
:21:28. > :21:30.and the UK Government came forward with their plan last Monday.
:21:31. > :21:34.The UK offer, however, was greeted with scepticism.
:21:35. > :21:51.The Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said...
:21:52. > :21:53.But elsewhere, some EU figures have begun to worry about the financial
:21:54. > :21:55.implications of Brexit for the remaining 27 countries.
:21:56. > :21:58.Gunther Oettinger, the EU's budget Commissioner, said this week that
:21:59. > :22:01.Brexit would leave a hole in the EU's finances of at least
:22:02. > :22:06.That's because the UK is a net contributor to the budget.
:22:07. > :22:09.The UK also runs a large trade deficit with the EU.
:22:10. > :22:12.Last year we bought ?312 billion worth of goods
:22:13. > :22:21.That is 71 billion more than we sold to the
:22:22. > :22:30.So the introduction of trade tariffs would be costly for both sides.
:22:31. > :22:31.The Brexit negotiations will continue every month.
:22:32. > :22:34.Mr Davis and Mr Barnier will have their next face-to-face
:22:35. > :22:36.meeting in Brussels on Monday the 17th of July.
:22:37. > :22:38.Joining me now from Rome is Roberto Gualtieri.
:22:39. > :22:40.He's a Socialist MEP, and part of the European
:22:41. > :22:51.Welcome to the programme. The British government has published a
:22:52. > :22:59.detailed plan to protect the rights of EU citizens living in the UK. The
:23:00. > :23:06.EU response was highly critical, will that be the EU's response to
:23:07. > :23:14.everything Britain proposes? First, we welcome the intention to protect
:23:15. > :23:19.EU citizens. But, our reading of the plan is that it falls short of its
:23:20. > :23:26.own ambitions, so there are a number of issues to be clarified. I think
:23:27. > :23:36.also to be corrected. For instance, while our proposal is based on a new
:23:37. > :23:41.low, this is based on a UK low and there are no guarantees that might
:23:42. > :23:45.be changed in the future. Then there is the famous issue of enforcement,
:23:46. > :23:51.which is based on UK courts. And third, there are a number of rights
:23:52. > :23:56.which seem to be missing. For instance, a family member will have
:23:57. > :24:03.to make his own request for settled status and we consider that an
:24:04. > :24:13.conceivable there might be two different answers. My own child, for
:24:14. > :24:18.instance. You are right, there are things to discuss. This wasn't a
:24:19. > :24:23.take it or leave it offer by the British government, it was the
:24:24. > :24:27.beginning of a negotiation. But Michel Barnier said it lacked
:24:28. > :24:30.clarity and vision. Someone else said it was worrisome and the Dutch
:24:31. > :24:34.Prime Minister said there were thousands of questions left
:24:35. > :24:40.unanswered. These are not helpful responses? It is not an issue of
:24:41. > :24:45.tones, it is an issue of the start of the negotiation, indeed. We are
:24:46. > :24:52.commentating the paper, identifying what is good, and the rights
:24:53. > :24:56.similar, there are a number of loopholes and there are some more
:24:57. > :25:01.from the issues relating to the legal status... It just sounds very
:25:02. > :25:08.constructive. Instead of saying, this is a good start, but there is
:25:09. > :25:16.much more to do. But you just sound negative. No, I don't think so. My
:25:17. > :25:21.first sentence was, I welcome the intention to protect the rights of
:25:22. > :25:26.EU citizens. That is a very constructive sentence. Then one has
:25:27. > :25:30.to be consistent and to find a mechanism which fully guarantees the
:25:31. > :25:34.right and the negotiation, and they are exactly for this purpose.
:25:35. > :25:38.Brussels is now worrying about how to fill the huge financial hole that
:25:39. > :25:46.Britain's departure will create in EU revenues. There is a number of
:25:47. > :25:49.ideas being floated at the moment, introduce an EU VAT supplement or
:25:50. > :25:54.take an axe to the common agricultural policy which is about
:25:55. > :26:02.40% of the budget. Does that appeal to you? There are two different
:26:03. > :26:08.problems. The first is to define the settlement, which has to be an
:26:09. > :26:12.integral part of the withdrawal agreement. We are not looking for
:26:13. > :26:19.fines, we are looking for only commitment to be paid. Then there is
:26:20. > :26:24.the issue for the future, were of course the union will have to
:26:25. > :26:30.reassess and redefine and improve its mechanism in its own resources
:26:31. > :26:38.so it can have an efficient finances in the future. So what do you want,
:26:39. > :26:45.and EU VAT or cutting money to Italy? I think the union deserves a
:26:46. > :26:50.better system of resources. This is for the future and we are working on
:26:51. > :26:55.that. Do you agree with the bustle's commission every member of the EU
:26:56. > :27:05.should adopt the euro by 2025? Yes, of course it is possible. Like it
:27:06. > :27:10.was for the United Kingdom, for Denmark, but in principle, the
:27:11. > :27:21.members of the union members of the union. So we think it would be good
:27:22. > :27:25.to a allowed the euro. There is the political will of the country to be
:27:26. > :27:31.taken into account but I think the euro has proven to be a successful
:27:32. > :27:36.currency, protecting citizens. I expect the membership will be
:27:37. > :27:42.broadened in the future. Why is it's GDP below what it was 15 years ago
:27:43. > :27:50.and the industrial output is below them what it was in 1984 so the euro
:27:51. > :27:56.hasn't been successful to you. You now run a massive deficit with
:27:57. > :28:02.Germany, where is the success? It should not be confused, the currency
:28:03. > :28:10.with the economic crisis we had. The also mistake in the conductor of the
:28:11. > :28:15.economic policy. We are changing austerity politics for more growth
:28:16. > :28:20.policies. Your country hasn't grown since you join the euro. The
:28:21. > :28:25.economic policy is another thing, so we need to change the economic
:28:26. > :28:29.policy. The common currencies is a strong protection for all of us.
:28:30. > :28:40.Your country hasn't grown since you joined the euro. I don't think your
:28:41. > :28:47.assessment is correct. Yes it is. By the way now, Italy is growing and
:28:48. > :28:52.that is good. Europe is growing. In 2017 it is growing more than the US
:28:53. > :29:00.and the UK. Do you accept if Britain had stayed in and been forced to
:29:01. > :29:07.join the euro in 2025, there is no public opinion support for joining
:29:08. > :29:12.the euro here? This is a joke. Whenever they say, if the UK had
:29:13. > :29:20.stayed in the union, the UK would be forced to join the euro. This is not
:29:21. > :29:26.true. That is what the Brussels delegation said. The Brussels
:29:27. > :29:35.commission said it thinks everybody in the EU should adopt the euro by
:29:36. > :29:40.2025. As I said, no. If you want to make a political statement, you are
:29:41. > :29:45.free to do so. But the fact is, the member of the delegation to the euro
:29:46. > :29:48.are supposed to join. Members who have decided to stay out of the
:29:49. > :29:54.euro, are free to stay out of the euro whilst they are in the EU. That
:29:55. > :29:57.is perfectly possible. Thank you for speaking to us from Rome today.
:29:58. > :30:00.Jeremy Corbyn has had a bit of a spring in his step
:30:01. > :30:02.since the election, after doing much better than pretty much
:30:03. > :30:05.Indeed, despite the party's internal splits, Labour
:30:06. > :30:09.But earlier this week, Labour's divisions on Brexit
:30:10. > :30:12.were thrust into the open as 50 Labour MPs defied the party line
:30:13. > :30:15.to vote in favour of a backbench amendment calling for the UK
:30:16. > :30:18.to remain members of the EU single market and customs union.
:30:19. > :30:21.One of those rebels was Labour MP Stella Creasy who had this to say
:30:22. > :30:28.What a lot of us are saying is we want, in these negotiations,
:30:29. > :30:34.To have a government that has forced through a hard Brexit,
:30:35. > :30:37.especially in the light of the general election result,
:30:38. > :30:39.with the public very clearly rejecting Theresa May's approach,
:30:40. > :30:44.And across the house, again, there are MPs saying,
:30:45. > :30:48.We don't know what is possible to achieve, but what we do know
:30:49. > :30:51.is if you walk in the room and you throw away something
:30:52. > :30:54.like single market membership, which 650,000 jobs in London alone
:30:55. > :30:56.are part of that, it's irresponsible.
:30:57. > :31:01.I'm joined now by the Shadow Justice Secretary Richard Burgon.
:31:02. > :31:11.Welcome to the programme. Thank you. On Thursday 49 MPs, almost a fifth
:31:12. > :31:16.of the Parliamentary party, rebelled against the leadership over Brexit,
:31:17. > :31:19.including three shadow ministers, were subsequently sacked by Jeremy
:31:20. > :31:25.Corbyn. Labour is now more divided on Brexit than the Tories? I don't
:31:26. > :31:28.think so. I think the amendment was regrettable and premature, and I
:31:29. > :31:32.agree with the Labour deputy leader Tom Watson, when he said he was
:31:33. > :31:35.disappointed about that. Actually, the difference in the Labour Party,
:31:36. > :31:39.the difference of nuance on the single market between those who
:31:40. > :31:44.definitely want to be a member of the single market, including some
:31:45. > :31:50.people who backed that amendment, and those who want tariff free
:31:51. > :31:54.access to the single market. The reality is, not just on Brexit, but
:31:55. > :31:57.a whole host of issue, it's the Conservative government that is
:31:58. > :32:02.completely divided and that odds with itself. If it is just nuance
:32:03. > :32:09.and you are not divided, Mark our card. The Chancellor said single
:32:10. > :32:14.access market mentorship is not on the table, the Brexit secretary said
:32:15. > :32:16.it should be and another shadow ministers speaks about seeking
:32:17. > :32:23.reformed membership of the European market and the customs union. Which
:32:24. > :32:26.one is Labour policy? Brexit is a settled issue, in that Labour
:32:27. > :32:31.accents Britain is leaving the European Union but we believe
:32:32. > :32:34.Britain has to have a relationship with the institutions. Which one is
:32:35. > :32:41.Labour policy of these three statements? Labour believes that we
:32:42. > :32:45.should be having a job 's first Brexit. A Brexit that puts the
:32:46. > :32:49.economy first. As our manifesto says, Britain's leaving the European
:32:50. > :32:56.Union, for example that also means the freedom of movement of labour,
:32:57. > :33:00.and the UK's part of that, will end when Britain leads the EU. Do you
:33:01. > :33:05.want freedom of movement to end? What we do want to end is the
:33:06. > :33:11.practice of unscrupulous employers, only recruiting workers from abroad
:33:12. > :33:17.and also an scrupulous employers trying to use the free you movement
:33:18. > :33:20.of labour to breakdown -- drag down terms and conditions. You can do
:33:21. > :33:26.that if we are in or out of the single market. Do you want freedom
:33:27. > :33:30.of movement to end? It is inevitable the freedom of movement will end. Do
:33:31. > :33:33.you want it to do is a question that that is the difference. Your
:33:34. > :33:39.manifesto said what you just said, I asked you if you want it to end?
:33:40. > :33:45.What Labour wants is Brexit that puts jobs on the economy that is.
:33:46. > :33:48.What Labour doesn't want is to put immigration and fall 's immigration
:33:49. > :33:53.targets as the Conservatives did on the table. What is the answer? It's
:33:54. > :33:57.quite simple, the free movement of labour will end in terms of when the
:33:58. > :34:02.UK leads the European Union. Labour's priority is not any other
:34:03. > :34:05.issue than jobs on the economy being put first and that is really
:34:06. > :34:09.important. Putting jobs on the economy does, should we leave or
:34:10. > :34:14.stay in the customs union? I think we need to leave all the options
:34:15. > :34:21.open on that. We need to negotiate without putting options off the
:34:22. > :34:25.table. You can't negotiate unless you know what your aim is, is it to
:34:26. > :34:31.leave or stay in the customs union? British manufacturers gain a lot,
:34:32. > :34:37.and their workers, in jobs, in terms of the current arrangement with a
:34:38. > :34:40.customs union. What we want is an equivalent benefit. We want the
:34:41. > :34:44.benefits of being in the customs union, even if when we leave the
:34:45. > :34:48.European Union we can't be in the customs union. These are the kind of
:34:49. > :34:52.demands that Theresa May should be making, and her ability to do so,
:34:53. > :34:56.I'm afraid, has been severely weakened by the fact you can't even
:34:57. > :35:00.command a majority now after she asked for a majority to do so. You
:35:01. > :35:04.have criticised the government for saying no deal is better than a bad
:35:05. > :35:08.deal, which I understand. But does that mean Labour's position is that
:35:09. > :35:13.any deal is better than no Deal? Any deal better than no Deal? No, no. It
:35:14. > :35:17.would be strange to say any deal is better than no Deal. We want a good
:35:18. > :35:25.deal for Britain. But if you can't get that? We are confident a Labour
:35:26. > :35:29.government could get that, we want a job 's first Brexit that puts jobs
:35:30. > :35:32.first and puts living standards first and doesn't use, as the
:35:33. > :35:36.Conservative government has tried to do, Brexit as a smoke screen to try
:35:37. > :35:44.and create some kind of low regulated tax haven... You could be
:35:45. > :35:48.in government for very shortly and the in these negotiations. If the EU
:35:49. > :35:53.does not budge on demanding 1 billion euros divorce Bill, would
:35:54. > :36:01.you just sack that for the sake of any deal or say no? -- suck it up?
:36:02. > :36:06.Labour won't be sucking up to anyone, the EU or anyone else. A
:36:07. > :36:10.Labour government would negotiate hard for Britain. What if they
:36:11. > :36:15.wouldn't budge? On the demand for 100 billion euros? What would you
:36:16. > :36:21.do? These are hypothetical scenarios, and these negotiations
:36:22. > :36:25.are nuanced and compensated. Labour would campaign, in opposition, hold
:36:26. > :36:29.the government to account for and in government deliver jobs first
:36:30. > :36:34.Brexit, that puts the economy does. The kind of post-Brexit Britain we
:36:35. > :36:37.want to see is one in which there is investment in industry, assistance
:36:38. > :36:41.from the government in industry and are more equal society with high
:36:42. > :36:46.wage jobs. Ian Wright Fricke, your new party says Labour is currently
:36:47. > :36:53.too broad a church. Do you agree with him? I think the Labour Party
:36:54. > :36:58.has always been a broad church. He says too broad? It has always been a
:36:59. > :37:03.broad church, socialists and trade unionists and long may it be so. You
:37:04. > :37:06.don't agree? The Labour Party is a broad church and it should be. Do
:37:07. > :37:11.you support lowering the threshold of MPs needed, that you need to get
:37:12. > :37:15.to stand for the Labour leadership? It is going to be debated at your
:37:16. > :37:22.autumn conference? This question isn't seen as dead about the
:37:23. > :37:25.leadership election many people predicted would occur after the
:37:26. > :37:29.general election won't be occurring. Do you support? Tom Watson says
:37:30. > :37:33.Jeremy Corbyn is secure for many years. I do believe all parties,
:37:34. > :37:37.including the Labour Party, need to be made more democratic. We have a
:37:38. > :37:42.membership of well over half a million and I would like the members
:37:43. > :37:47.to have more say in our party's policies and in the way the party is
:37:48. > :37:53.run. Jeremy Corbyn spoke at a left-wing rally in London yesterday.
:37:54. > :37:59.Among the crowd there were placards calling Theresa May a murderer,
:38:00. > :38:02.pictures of Mrs May's head on communist flags and Trotskyite
:38:03. > :38:05.banners. Are these the kind of people Mr Corbyn should be
:38:06. > :38:09.associating himself with, if he is a Prime Minister in waiting? The
:38:10. > :38:13.reality is when you speak at an outdoor meeting, you have no control
:38:14. > :38:17.who turns up or who is walking past. You have no control over the kind of
:38:18. > :38:21.banners people make. I understand the hundred and 50,000 members of
:38:22. > :38:28.the public at that event. No, there won't, 15,000. I spoke the night
:38:29. > :38:32.before the general election, in an event in Leeds city centre. For all
:38:33. > :38:36.I know, there could have been all sorts of people walking past,
:38:37. > :38:40.watching. The key thing is to judge Jeremy by his words, Judge Labour by
:38:41. > :38:45.our words on what we've done. We do believe in a new kind of politics.
:38:46. > :38:50.Also politics committed to changing our society for the better. OK,
:38:51. > :38:58.Richard Burgen, thank you for joining us today.
:38:59. > :39:01.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:39:02. > :39:03.Any chance of a deal at Stormont diminished
:39:04. > :39:05.further over the weekend when the Sinn Fein President,
:39:06. > :39:08.Gerry Adams, said he doesn't think there will be any
:39:09. > :39:24.The DUP are showing no urgency, or no real inclination to deal with the
:39:25. > :39:26.rights that are the crux, at the heart.
:39:27. > :39:28.The party's John O'Dowd and Simon Hamilton of the DUP
:39:29. > :39:39.My mother is gay and she is married to a woman in England. She cannot be
:39:40. > :39:41.here because her marriage is not recognised in Northern Ireland.
:39:42. > :39:43.Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK
:39:44. > :39:46.and Ireland where same sex marriage is still banned and pretty much
:39:47. > :39:49.Thousands protested in Belfast yesterday to change that.
:39:50. > :39:52.We'll be discussing that with an MLA who supports change and a campaigner
:39:53. > :39:55.for the promotion of traditional marriage and religion who says same
:39:56. > :39:57.sex marriage will weaken the natural ties between men,
:39:58. > :40:01.our commentators Allison Morris and Professor Rick Wilford
:40:02. > :40:11.The Sinn Fein President, Gerry Adams, pretty much confirmed
:40:12. > :40:14.what very many people were thinking when he said a Stormont deal
:40:15. > :40:19.There had been a flurry of activity over the weekend when Theresa May
:40:20. > :40:20.had separate phone calls with Arlene Foster
:40:21. > :40:23.and Michelle O'Neill, but it looks like the parties
:40:24. > :40:26.will keep their distance on Monday and see what the Secretary of State,
:40:27. > :40:29.Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd and Simon Hamilton of the DUP
:40:30. > :40:36.So what 'profound and serious consequences' were outlined
:40:37. > :40:46.by the SoS when the deadline on Friday was missed?
:40:47. > :40:54.Let's begin by dispelling this nonsense that the DUP is not serious
:40:55. > :40:59.about a deal. You will know that we have not drawn any red lines, we
:41:00. > :41:03.have not set any preconditions. We want to see an executive and
:41:04. > :41:08.assembly up and running as soon as possible. Do you believe Sinn Fein
:41:09. > :41:12.wants a deal? I would hope that Sinn Fein want a deal to get devolution
:41:13. > :41:17.up and running again so we can deal with pressing issues on matters of
:41:18. > :41:20.health, education, they need to attract jobs and investment. Civil
:41:21. > :41:25.servants are running the budget. There is a 5% cut to what
:41:26. > :41:29.departments can spend. We need to get back in there, grapple those
:41:30. > :41:35.issues, deal with those ages, deliver for people on the issues
:41:36. > :41:41.that matter for them. That is being denied at this minute. We have not
:41:42. > :41:44.set any preconditions, we are not going any red lines. We want to deal
:41:45. > :41:51.with all of the issues that are important. You don't want any of
:41:52. > :41:57.those cuts presumably to be commended in Northern Ireland. Does
:41:58. > :42:01.your party want a deal? Devolution and the executive and the all
:42:02. > :42:06.Ireland bodies that go with it are the only show in town but they have
:42:07. > :42:10.to represent everybody. We have to have a government that represent all
:42:11. > :42:13.people. People marched through the centre of Belfast yesterday. In
:42:14. > :42:19.previous weeks we had 15,000 people marching through Belfast. These are
:42:20. > :42:22.citizens who expect to have Wright, who should have rights, and they
:42:23. > :42:26.should be protected by law and they should be protected by the executive
:42:27. > :42:29.that is there to serve all the people. It is quite simple and
:42:30. > :42:34.reasonable from many people's point of view. We want an executive built
:42:35. > :42:40.on a rights basis which serves all the citizens of our society on an
:42:41. > :42:43.equal and fair basis. But the way to sort those issues out is to get back
:42:44. > :42:49.into the assembly, back into an executive and sort them out at
:42:50. > :42:56.Stormont. We tried that over many years. Martin McGuinness tried that
:42:57. > :43:00.as well. And with great patience and fortitude, Martin McGuinness worked
:43:01. > :43:04.with the DUP to bring them over the line on the basis of equality
:43:05. > :43:10.issues. The executive failed because of failure of a rights -based
:43:11. > :43:14.society. It failed because of allegations of corruption at the
:43:15. > :43:21.heart of government. We don't need to revisit all of that. We know all
:43:22. > :43:27.of that. We need to know where we are starting from. Part of what Sinn
:43:28. > :43:29.Fein wants is to elevate the Irish language over everything else. You
:43:30. > :43:35.want some kind of cultural supremacy. No, we want equality for
:43:36. > :43:38.everybody and when you have a rights -based Society for everybody,
:43:39. > :43:43.People's rights, whether you are from the Orange tradition or any
:43:44. > :43:51.other tradition, is protected from law -- in law. What is wrong with
:43:52. > :43:56.that? It doesn't work like that. It doesn't operate like that. We want
:43:57. > :44:02.to move forward. If a deal is required to get devolution up and
:44:03. > :44:08.running, then we want a deal that is fair, that is sensible and that
:44:09. > :44:14.doesn't reflect, elevate sorry, one side of the community or one
:44:15. > :44:19.culture, above any other. As far as John O'Dowd and the people he
:44:20. > :44:21.represents are concerned, they may feel that your party has been
:44:22. > :44:28.distinctly lacking in its respect for those that are big supporters of
:44:29. > :44:32.the Irish language? We want a deal that can be supported on all sides
:44:33. > :44:36.of our community, not one that is seeing a culture or a language
:44:37. > :44:39.elevated above any other. We do not wish to deny anybody who wants to
:44:40. > :44:45.live their life or part of their life through the Irish language, we
:44:46. > :44:50.don't want to denigrate... That is a shift in your position. We want to
:44:51. > :44:57.be respectful of Irish language and Irish culture. Some of your members
:44:58. > :45:01.have a track record. All of us want to see language and cultural issues
:45:02. > :45:04.not being the political football that they have. We want to see them
:45:05. > :45:10.dealt with properly. We want to see them dealt with respectfully. That
:45:11. > :45:13.is what we are trying to do. Arlene Foster has been engaging with the
:45:14. > :45:20.Irish language sector and has learnt a lot from that. We want to see that
:45:21. > :45:26.continue. We want to see Ulster Scots for example recognised and
:45:27. > :45:31.given... Compromise is not a dirty word, is that what you are saying?
:45:32. > :45:34.We will look at a cultural Acrobat is not elevate any one culture or
:45:35. > :45:46.language in our community about any others. It needs to be respectful of
:45:47. > :45:52.all cultures. Does that help? It was said last week that an important
:45:53. > :45:57.meeting, the associated costs with an Irish language act were
:45:58. > :46:01.reasonable. Someone in the DUP suggesting that is progress, isn't
:46:02. > :46:09.it? This idea that the Irish land which is to be elevated above all
:46:10. > :46:17.others, -- language, we are going to go through a fortnight of oranges.
:46:18. > :46:23.What I am saying is the Orange culture is well embedded in this
:46:24. > :46:28.state. What the Good Friday Agreement was about was ensuring
:46:29. > :46:33.there is equality of recognition. We have a deal. It is the Good Friday
:46:34. > :46:37.Agreement. These negotiations are about implementation of outstanding
:46:38. > :46:44.agreements which do not detract from the rights of anyone, but enshrine
:46:45. > :46:47.in law the protection in rights for citizens whether they be from the
:46:48. > :47:00.Irish land which tradition, whether they be from the LGBT tradition, --
:47:01. > :47:04.language. How do you respond to that? It is very simple, it is about
:47:05. > :47:10.respecting the rights of everybody. I am happy to go through previous
:47:11. > :47:18.agreements and point out why what Sinn Fein is demanding now is not
:47:19. > :47:21.part of previous agreements. That was not promised by the DUP, and you
:47:22. > :47:27.know that well. It has not been delivered. We want to see respect
:47:28. > :47:29.for all cultures in Northern Ireland. We done upon to see the
:47:30. > :47:39.Irish language elevated above other languages.
:47:40. > :47:46.You might have two spruce up on your Irish language of Sinn Fein got
:47:47. > :47:51.their way. That is not the sort of robust muscular... There is
:47:52. > :47:56.obviously not a huge amount of common ground at this stage. There
:47:57. > :48:02.are other issues that we need to catch on. What about the role of
:48:03. > :48:08.James Brokenshire and all of this? Do you think that he can sort this
:48:09. > :48:11.issue out, that he is in a position to help you to reach agreement
:48:12. > :48:18.sooner rather than later? We are expecting a big announcement from
:48:19. > :48:26.him later. We are not relying on James Brokenshire to sort anything
:48:27. > :48:32.out. It needs to set aside its relationship with the DUP and
:48:33. > :48:38.Theresa May needs to act as a co-guarantor, along with the
:48:39. > :48:46.Taoiseach. It looks like he has three options tomorrow. Direct rule,
:48:47. > :48:49.or another election. He does not have an option for direct rule
:48:50. > :48:54.because then he would be in breach of another agreement. There is no
:48:55. > :48:58.option of direct rule. What we want to see over the next of days is an
:48:59. > :49:04.agreement which sees... Continue talking? We want to see agreement.
:49:05. > :49:11.We want to see a step change in the negotiations. We want to see all the
:49:12. > :49:23.local political parties reaching an intimidation ordeal. --
:49:24. > :49:27.implementation. We make no apology for the deal we did with the
:49:28. > :49:34.Conservative Party. It has brought ?1 billion to Northern Ireland. It
:49:35. > :49:43.has altered the relationship between the DUP and the Conservatives. What
:49:44. > :49:48.we can't have is ongoing stasis, we cannot have those important reforms
:49:49. > :49:53.required health and education, we need to attract more jobs and
:49:54. > :49:56.investment and whilst not we don't Odyssey is a return to direct rule,
:49:57. > :50:01.we cannot have a situation where we have more stasis and more delay and
:50:02. > :50:09.those important decisions that matter to people's lives every
:50:10. > :50:13.single day delayed any further. Do you want to see direct rule or
:50:14. > :50:20.another election? We are prepared to work and roll up our sleeves, any
:50:21. > :50:27.metaphor that you want, to build on the progress we have been making.
:50:28. > :50:31.Could you be involved in a deal that required serious compromise by the
:50:32. > :50:37.DUP on the eve of the 12? Calendar dates don't matter. Of course they
:50:38. > :50:43.matter. If you have a good deal that is there to be done, at this moment
:50:44. > :50:48.in time, that requires Sinn Fein to change its attitude and its approach
:50:49. > :50:53.to these talks and not demand what it is looking for. Instead, work
:50:54. > :50:56.with us together and build on the progress we have been making over
:50:57. > :51:02.the talks to get a fair and sensible and balanced deal that can be
:51:03. > :51:06.supported by all sides. Are you quite happy to see the DUP under
:51:07. > :51:16.pressure in Westminster, as it was this week, Army issue of abortion?
:51:17. > :51:22.Is that a comfortable issue? The pressure is off as far as doing a
:51:23. > :51:27.deal at Stormont is concerned? No, I agree with Ian Paisley when he said
:51:28. > :51:34.we are better governing ourselves. But it has to be on the basis of the
:51:35. > :51:36.outstanding agreements. It is absolutely ridiculous. The Good
:51:37. > :51:42.Friday Agreement and the St Andrews agreement were massive compromises
:51:43. > :51:45.for unionism and republicanism. They came about because there were
:51:46. > :51:49.understandings of change in the society. That change has to take
:51:50. > :51:54.place for those agreements to deliver the social economic changes
:51:55. > :52:01.that Simon talks about, the stable government Simon talks about. It is
:52:02. > :52:11.the first I have had to talk with sound from the DUP. Was it is bigger
:52:12. > :52:15.surprise as you were for the rest of us Chris Wilder you get a heads up
:52:16. > :52:23.it was coming? It is a matter for the government at Westminster. It is
:52:24. > :52:26.not what you wanted. At the same time, we had a court judgment which
:52:27. > :52:31.ruled in a way which I thought was proper. That said this was an issue
:52:32. > :52:34.for Northern Ireland on the Northern Ireland assembly to deal with and no
:52:35. > :52:39.one wants to see... It is a matter for NHS England. It is a matter for
:52:40. > :52:44.the Westminster government. It is positive that the positioning
:52:45. > :52:51.Northern Ireland has been affected by the court case. No party wants to
:52:52. > :52:57.see an extension of the 1967 act to Northern Ireland. You are not
:52:58. > :53:10.uncomfortable about it? We would rather not... There will be a range
:53:11. > :53:12.of issues... We will deal with that on a case-by-case basis. That does
:53:13. > :53:21.not take away from the positivity we have had in securing... Will we know
:53:22. > :53:24.about the meetings that take place? I think it is good that Northern
:53:25. > :53:32.Ireland has an influence in Westminster at what is a crucial
:53:33. > :53:37.time for our country. I know you think that, not everyone else
:53:38. > :53:42.agrees. You will seem from the financial measures, we have
:53:43. > :53:50.sought... It will benefit everyone in Northern Ireland. Another
:53:51. > :53:54.interesting development, James Brokenshire is going to make an
:53:55. > :53:57.announcement about transparency and critical donations. I am not sure
:53:58. > :54:03.that is something the DUP are happy about. What do you make of it? Let's
:54:04. > :54:09.see what James Brokenshire says. He should open that up. The public
:54:10. > :54:15.should be aware of who is donating two critical parties. We have said
:54:16. > :54:21.that over a member of years -- two political parties. We would be
:54:22. > :54:26.comfortable with that. How uncomfortable or relax would you
:54:27. > :54:34.about it but Iraq is not at all uncomfortable with it. We would be
:54:35. > :54:41.relaxed with it. On the same footing as across the United Kingdom, we
:54:42. > :54:48.want to see that. You're at critics have said you have been anything but
:54:49. > :54:52.transparent. You can look at previous manifestos. We want to see
:54:53. > :54:56.transparency in Northern Ireland, in keeping with the rest of the United
:54:57. > :54:58.Kingdom and all of the rules in respect of political donations in
:54:59. > :55:04.line with the rest of the United Kingdom. I don't know what he will
:55:05. > :55:08.say. Have your colleagues had a conversation? We will look forward
:55:09. > :55:11.to see what the Secretary of State brings forward. Thanks very much for
:55:12. > :55:13.joining us. Let's hear what our
:55:14. > :55:15.commentators make of that. Professor Rick Wilford
:55:16. > :55:29.and Allison Morris of Glass half full, glass half empty? I
:55:30. > :55:34.am naturally pessimistic. I am going to say the glass is half empty. But
:55:35. > :55:42.I am a hot the sort of pessimists. Partly because I think we are
:55:43. > :55:50.accustomed to this impasse which is now prevailing -- happy sort of
:55:51. > :55:53.pessimistic. What is important is if we can... We can try to detect the
:55:54. > :56:00.toll of the exchanges between the two major parties. It has been
:56:01. > :56:06.worse. It has been much worse in the past. In that respect maybe there is
:56:07. > :56:10.a glimmer of hope. It is not terrible bouts of finger wagging.
:56:11. > :56:13.And people being particularly rude to each other. The mood is far more
:56:14. > :56:19.tempered than we might have anticipated. I am a simple-minded
:56:20. > :56:25.person. On this issue of the Irish language, what the assembly should
:56:26. > :56:27.have done years ago was preceded with a single equality at. You could
:56:28. > :56:31.have bundled into that single equality and they whole raft of
:56:32. > :56:36.issues including language. That seems to have gone by the by. Sinn
:56:37. > :56:38.Fein are determined to get a freestanding language act and I
:56:39. > :56:46.don't think that is pitifully helpful. Are you optimistic after
:56:47. > :56:54.what we have heard? -- particularly helpful. There's not going to be a
:56:55. > :57:01.deal by tomorrow. We are all aware of that. The language has softened.
:57:02. > :57:05.I think with regards to the DUP and their views on the Irish language,
:57:06. > :57:08.remember the crocodile, it was only in January of this year, and there
:57:09. > :57:13.has been an amazing change in language since then. There is a
:57:14. > :57:19.change to the DUP 's language in relation to a lot of things. You
:57:20. > :57:27.wonder how much of an influence their new employers in the Tory
:57:28. > :57:33.party have had on that. I think that in that respect we will see a
:57:34. > :57:40.massive change in the DUP 's language. Do you think Sinn Fein and
:57:41. > :57:45.the DUP want a deal? I think all the parties are committed to the
:57:46. > :57:49.principle of devolution, it is a matter of finding a means to that
:57:50. > :58:02.end. There are variants of direct rule. There is going to be have --
:58:03. > :58:07.there is good have to be some sort of direct rule because we no budget.
:58:08. > :58:11.The politicians are all going on holiday now. It is good to have to
:58:12. > :58:12.come from Westminster. Whatever you want to call out, that is direct
:58:13. > :58:15.rule. Now, I've been saying this
:58:16. > :58:18.for quite a few months now, Here's a look back at the week in 60
:58:19. > :58:30.seconds, with Gareth Gordon. The DUP signed up to support the
:58:31. > :58:33.Conservatives and were delighted with what they got in return.
:58:34. > :58:38.Spending power of almost ?1.5 billion will be available to address
:58:39. > :58:44.the unique circumstances of Northern Ireland. Welsh and Scottish
:58:45. > :58:49.neighbours did not see it that way. This is cash for votes. If there is
:58:50. > :58:54.investment coming to Northern Ireland, Scotland should be getting
:58:55. > :58:59.its fair share. Another deadline slipped away. Much progress has been
:59:00. > :59:04.made but a number of issues remain outstanding. The government
:59:05. > :59:07.announced that women from Northern Ireland could have abortions in
:59:08. > :59:12.England on the NHS. Pro-life campaigners weren't happy. It is
:59:13. > :59:14.anti-democratic really. If you look at the mainstream parties in
:59:15. > :59:22.Northern Ireland, none of them wanted the abortion act. The judges
:59:23. > :59:26.gathered to decide who will be crowned politicians of the year. It
:59:27. > :59:29.has to be Arlene Foster, for very bad reasons.
:59:30. > :59:33.Now, if campaigners for same sex marriage got the law changed,
:59:34. > :59:35.they probably wouldn't care whether it was done
:59:36. > :59:38.Their focus is on bringing Northern Ireland into line
:59:39. > :59:43.A big protest rally held in Belfast yesterday comes at a time, however,
:59:44. > :59:46.when they say there is majority support now among MLAs for change.
:59:47. > :59:48.We'll be discussing the case for same sex marraige
:59:49. > :59:51.here with one of those MLAs, and a campaigner against the idea.
:59:52. > :00:04.First, here's Catherine Morrison's report from the rally.
:00:05. > :00:13.They came in their thousands, braving the rain to make their
:00:14. > :00:16.voices heard. Campaigners want to change in the law to bring Northern
:00:17. > :00:20.Ireland into line with elsewhere. This is the only part of the UK and
:00:21. > :00:27.Ireland where same-sex marriage remains outlawed. We have kept the
:00:28. > :00:30.tone of this campaign positive. It is about love and equality and
:00:31. > :00:34.making sure this is about civil marriage equality. It is nothing to
:00:35. > :00:38.do with what happens in churches. They are free to make their own
:00:39. > :00:43.rules. The state should provide equally for all members of its
:00:44. > :00:47.society. Today's march takes place against a backdrop of continuing
:00:48. > :00:53.political disagreement over same-sex marriage equality. The DUP remain
:00:54. > :00:56.opposed to any change in the law and the issue has become one of the
:00:57. > :01:06.stumbling blocks in the current negotiations to restore part area.
:01:07. > :01:10.Our politicians need to get with -- get with the 21st-century. It is
:01:11. > :01:13.like dealing with dinosaurs. It is time to get to the streets. We don't
:01:14. > :01:19.want to be left behind on this issue. The rest of the world is
:01:20. > :01:28.moving on. The march made its way to the City Hall. It was led by amongst
:01:29. > :01:35.others the... It is a personal issue for me. Her marriage -- my mother 's
:01:36. > :01:38.marriage is not recognised in Northern Ireland. She chooses to
:01:39. > :01:43.live in England. Supporters of marriage equality will be following
:01:44. > :01:49.events at Stormont closely. If a deal is not struck, direct rule
:01:50. > :01:50.could be imposed and a decision could be handed to the government in
:01:51. > :01:51.Westminster. Catherine Morrison reporting there,
:01:52. > :01:54.and I'm joined now by one of the many MLAs who was on that
:01:55. > :01:57.march, Kellie Armstrong of Alliance and by Tracy Harkin
:01:58. > :01:59.from the Iona Institute, an organisation formed to promote
:02:00. > :02:01.the place of marriage To date, MLAs have voted five
:02:02. > :02:16.times on whether or not I think yesterday's protest march
:02:17. > :02:19.helped to solidify our cause that we are looking for same-sex marriage in
:02:20. > :02:26.Northern Ireland. It is time and is also a call for a protection in
:02:27. > :02:33.concerned. If we reform the petition concerned last time, made 2016, we
:02:34. > :02:38.could have had to same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland by now. That did
:02:39. > :02:41.not happen. I was absolutely determined with the crew delighted
:02:42. > :02:48.to hear those calls for reform saw minority groups can take that
:02:49. > :02:51.forward. Mike Nesbitt talked about people who oppose same-sex marriage
:02:52. > :02:55.being on the wrong side of history. Do you get the sense that you are
:02:56. > :03:01.now on the wrong side of history on this one? Not at all. It is
:03:02. > :03:04.important to remember we all love rainbows and equality. I think that
:03:05. > :03:10.the problem with this whole debate is we have not really talked about
:03:11. > :03:13.the issues and the opposition is often nothing to do with the quality
:03:14. > :03:20.or whether you like or don't like gay people. That is besides the
:03:21. > :03:28.point. The heart of this to point -- this point, when you redefine
:03:29. > :03:32.marriage, you redefine the rights of children. Two men and two women
:03:33. > :03:37.cannot make a child. That is basic biology. When you redefine marriage,
:03:38. > :03:41.you give them the same rights in law to have a child and there is a huge
:03:42. > :03:48.problem with that. The rights and the equal rights of the child to
:03:49. > :03:54.know and to be raised by design and circumstance... My mother died of
:03:55. > :03:57.cancer when I was quite young and I was raised by a single father. There
:03:58. > :04:03.is nothing wrong with a father raising his child. If you listen to
:04:04. > :04:14.me, I am actually not saying that at all. There are lots of variations.
:04:15. > :04:19.Absolutely. But throughout Ireland, north and south, children are being
:04:20. > :04:26.raised in all sorts of circumstances and we all do the best we can. That
:04:27. > :04:29.undermines your argument entirely. No, when you legalise same-sex
:04:30. > :04:34.marriage, you were doing it by design so it is no longer
:04:35. > :04:44.circumstance, it is by design. In Ireland we are very family
:04:45. > :04:50.orientated. We all love programmes like the BBC One where people go off
:04:51. > :04:57.to great lengths and were raised, they find out who... We only have to
:04:58. > :05:02.look at organisations like sperm donors anonymous and to listen to
:05:03. > :05:08.the children of gay couples... Let's just deal with the facts. Same-sex
:05:09. > :05:12.marriage was introduced and the sky did not fall down. There is no
:05:13. > :05:18.evidence that if that change came here, society would change
:05:19. > :05:23.dramatically. And in a bad way. There is only 22 countries that have
:05:24. > :05:26.legalised same-sex marriage. And how many countries are there in the
:05:27. > :05:31.world? It is still quite new. What we do know is that once you redefine
:05:32. > :05:36.marriage, the redefinitions have no end. For example, in Colombia, we
:05:37. > :05:42.just had a three-man couple relationship... Nobody is talking
:05:43. > :05:48.about that. This is the thin end of the wedge. That is the argument. I
:05:49. > :05:52.have to say that we have already redefined marriage. If you go back
:05:53. > :05:59.to the Bible, then are plenty of situations where there are men with
:06:00. > :06:05.multiple wives. It did not work out too well. What is the problem with
:06:06. > :06:08.men and women being married? My husband is not going to take off and
:06:09. > :06:12.get married to a man if same-sex marriage comes in tomorrow. There
:06:13. > :06:17.are certain people who believe they can control society and society is
:06:18. > :06:22.moving on beyond that. As a legislator, I have to take account
:06:23. > :06:24.of people who are not Christian and to have different lifestyles. I
:06:25. > :06:28.cannot impose my religious views or anybody else's on that. I have to
:06:29. > :06:35.say, to turn round and say that same-sex marriage is a problem with
:06:36. > :06:45.children, what are we going to say next? This is the problem with this
:06:46. > :06:54.whole debate... Let's think about where marriage came from. The state
:06:55. > :07:00.only intervenes... A man and a woman make a baby. I had infertility
:07:01. > :07:03.problems for seven years and I was delighted to finally have my
:07:04. > :07:07.daughter. Did that mean for seven years my marriage was worthless? So
:07:08. > :07:12.why do you keep bringing it back to children? Because when you
:07:13. > :07:20.legislate, you give the same rights to two men and two women. That's the
:07:21. > :07:24.point about the legislation. I would rather have a child that is being
:07:25. > :07:35.loved by two parents... Do you think that a man and a woman, a mother and
:07:36. > :07:39.a father don't matter? Just to be clear, what the suggestion seems to
:07:40. > :07:44.be is that by allowing same-sex marriage, you somehow diminish
:07:45. > :07:56.heterosexual marriage? Where is the evidence for that? Explain what you
:07:57. > :07:59.mean by a natural tie. My father was a fantastic father. Why are you
:08:00. > :08:05.saying that two men cannot be good fathers? They can. We are
:08:06. > :08:09.creating... We are giving state blessing where children are by
:08:10. > :08:17.design not just circumstance will actually be deprived of the love of
:08:18. > :08:20.a mother. Do you think that a family that is brought up that is not the
:08:21. > :08:33.normal family as you would describe it is in some way diminished?
:08:34. > :08:42.To be brought up without a mother or a father is a huge loss. I was
:08:43. > :08:48.brought up by a single father. Did you miss your mother? Would you have
:08:49. > :09:00.like that to have been deliberately inflicted on you by design? But I
:09:01. > :09:03.don't diminish my father 's role. Whether or not I had a mother is not
:09:04. > :09:09.in my gift but I wouldn't diminish my family as being less because it
:09:10. > :09:14.was not... Let me ask you, whether you like it or whether you don't
:09:15. > :09:21.like it, there will be people who agree wholeheartedly, and Angela
:09:22. > :09:25.Merkel voted against same-sex marriage in Germany just within the
:09:26. > :09:28.past week, so how do you start to try to persuade people like Tracy
:09:29. > :09:32.that they have got it wrong and they need to look at it in a different
:09:33. > :09:40.way? We have carefully considered this and we'll are taking forward
:09:41. > :09:46.proposals. We consulted with people. We talked to churches. And what we
:09:47. > :09:49.have is to say that we won protections for churches so that no
:09:50. > :09:57.church will be forced to perform a ceremony of that is not within the
:09:58. > :10:05.Church or that religious groupings. Does that reassure you at all? Other
:10:06. > :10:09.relationships, they should be allowed to live, everybody should be
:10:10. > :10:15.allowed to live every way they want big because of the nature of
:10:16. > :10:20.marriage, it is all to do with the natural ties. Children will lose out
:10:21. > :10:27.and we only have two Google... You have made that point. We need to
:10:28. > :10:31.leave out there. What do you want to hear from the Secretary of State
:10:32. > :10:36.tomorrow? Confirming that devolution will be back on track again. It may
:10:37. > :10:42.well require more talks but I don't want to see as mood into direct
:10:43. > :10:46.rule. And good news if he moves on political donations? Absolutely.
:10:47. > :10:49.That'll a fantastic world. Let's hear more from Rick Wilford
:10:50. > :11:03.and Allison Morris. This is an issue which clearly
:11:04. > :11:09.divides people. Are our legislators likely to be able to resolve this
:11:10. > :11:14.issue? What we saw in the last assembly when it was functioning was
:11:15. > :11:18.that there would have been same-sex marriage, had the DUP not use the...
:11:19. > :11:22.It is lovely to be able to persuade people to move over to the other
:11:23. > :11:26.side and accept equality but if they cannot BX -- persuaded, they will
:11:27. > :11:37.have to accept Democratic rule. We have seen that in the south. The sky
:11:38. > :11:41.does not falling. The fact that we don't have same-sex marriages
:11:42. > :11:49.terrible. I agree. I think marriage is such a plastic concept and it
:11:50. > :11:56.evolves over time. There is no one fixed view of marriage. I take a
:11:57. > :11:58.much more pleural view. It is a social construction. And certainly
:11:59. > :12:03.public opinion in Northern Ireland seems to move in the direction of
:12:04. > :12:05.adding this to the repertoire of the kinds of marriages there can be. I
:12:06. > :12:13.certainly don't think that children's rights are in any way
:12:14. > :12:20.impaired. A quick word about the political donations and the
:12:21. > :12:23.Secretary of State? It'll be incredibly positive. We would love
:12:24. > :12:31.to see where all this money has been coming from all these years. It is
:12:32. > :12:35.about time. I think the Brexit fold highlighted that it needs to be open
:12:36. > :12:39.and transparent. The parties could have done it voluntarily. The fact
:12:40. > :12:45.it is taking legislation to get them to think about it is rather
:12:46. > :12:50.disappointing. They could have just said, these are the papers, these
:12:51. > :12:57.are the donors. What do you expect to hear from the Secretary of State?
:12:58. > :13:02.None of us have managed to understand what those serious and
:13:03. > :13:08.dire consequences are. I think they will change the legislation for an
:13:09. > :13:13.extended period. Yes, September, probably. We will see.
:13:14. > :13:15.That's it from Sunday Politics for this week.
:13:16. > :13:17.Keep across all the political developments on TV, radio
:13:18. > :13:20.and digital as they unfold in the coming days and I'll be back
:13:21. > :13:55.For now, though, from everyone in the team - goodbye.
:13:56. > :13:59.The Irish Open is coming back to the north coast.
:14:00. > :14:04.For the first time, Portstewart Golf Club plays host,