:00:00. > :00:00.This programme contains some flashing images.
:00:07. > :00:08.We're live from sunny Birmingham on day one of
:00:09. > :00:10.the Conservative Party Conference, where, three months after Britain
:00:11. > :00:12.voted to leave the European Union, the Prime Minister has given
:00:13. > :00:49.us her first inkling of how she plans to do it.
:00:50. > :00:52.Morning, folks - welcome to the Sunday Politics.
:00:53. > :00:55.Theresa May says she will trigger Article 50, starting the two year
:00:56. > :00:57.process of negotiations that will culminate in Britain
:00:58. > :01:00.leaving the EU, before the end of March next year.
:01:01. > :01:03.So Brexit by Easter 2019 - but what kind of relationship
:01:04. > :01:11.A Great Repeal Bill will also be voted on next Spring,
:01:12. > :01:16.but won't be enacted until we leave, at which point EU laws will be
:01:17. > :01:32.And coming up here, an agreement to resolve a bitterly
:01:33. > :01:34.disputed parade is hailed as a watershed moment.
:01:35. > :01:37.Jeffrey Donaldson of the DUP and Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly
:01:38. > :01:39.will join me in studio with their thoughts.
:01:40. > :01:41.will join me in studio defined by the conservatism of the
:01:42. > :01:48.Notting Hill set, what now? We explore the potential rise of Sidcup
:01:49. > :01:55.So far no Great Repeal Act to get rid of the Sunday Politics Panel -
:01:56. > :02:02.Steve Richards, Rachel Sylvester and Tom Newton Dunn.
:02:03. > :02:05.It's 100 days since we voted to leave the EU and the clamour has
:02:06. > :02:08.grown for the Government to tell us what Brexit would look like.
:02:09. > :02:13.This morning, as the Tory faithful gather in Birmingham,
:02:14. > :02:17.we still don't expect to be told what Brexit means but we do know
:02:18. > :02:19.more about the timetable and the extrication process.
:02:20. > :02:22.A Bill will go before parliament this spring to repeal the 1972
:02:23. > :02:24.European Communities Act, which legalised our membership
:02:25. > :02:34.But it won't actually come into force until we leave.
:02:35. > :02:36.Theresa May also told the Andrew Marr Show that
:02:37. > :02:39.Article 50 would be invoked by March of next year -
:02:40. > :02:47.starting the two year process of renegotiation before we leave.
:02:48. > :02:51.I have been saying we would not trigger it before the end of this
:02:52. > :02:55.year, so that we get confirmation in place. I will be saying in my speech
:02:56. > :02:58.today that we will trigger before the end of March next year. The
:02:59. > :03:02.remaining members of the EU have to decide what the process of
:03:03. > :03:06.negotiation is. I hope, and I will be saying to them, that now they
:03:07. > :03:13.know what the time is going to be, it is not an exact date, but they
:03:14. > :03:16.know it will be the first quarter of next year, that we will be able to
:03:17. > :03:19.have some preparatory work so that once the trigger comes we have a
:03:20. > :03:23.smoother process of negotiation. Theresa May, on this channel, just
:03:24. > :03:27.over an hour ago. What do you make of it? Saggy as you said, we know
:03:28. > :03:33.more about when but we don't know what Brexit is going to be. We don't
:03:34. > :03:37.know how the relationship will work out, we don't know what the Prime
:03:38. > :03:40.Minister's negotiation position will be, we haven't worked out anything
:03:41. > :03:44.about the free market access and freedom of movement. All of the
:03:45. > :03:47.substance. It is a significant announcement but we don't actually
:03:48. > :03:52.know anything really big about what our lives are going to be like in
:03:53. > :03:57.future. Is there a risk from the Prime Minister? Is there a risk
:03:58. > :04:02.putting this before Parliament to repeal the 1972 Communities Act?
:04:03. > :04:10.Undoubtedly. Anything you put before the House of Commons or the House of
:04:11. > :04:12.Lords, where there is no Tory majority, let alone a Brexit
:04:13. > :04:18.majority, risks getting amended. She runs the risk. There is also a risk
:04:19. > :04:27.of not saying this, not having the greater appeal, which is actually a
:04:28. > :04:31.great repeal act, when is being repealed, but she needed to throw
:04:32. > :04:35.the Tory right red meat, and they got it this morning. There is always
:04:36. > :04:41.the potential of a constitutional crisis. If the Lords were to dig in
:04:42. > :04:45.over this, or even digging over Article 50, demand a vote on that,
:04:46. > :04:51.lawyers are arguing whether you need it or not, it may not be plain
:04:52. > :04:56.sailing when you have a majority of 12? It definitely isn't going to be
:04:57. > :05:00.with a majority of 12. The scope for constitutional crisis is many.
:05:01. > :05:05.Clashes with the Lords, clashes with the Commons, Scotland is still there
:05:06. > :05:10.in the background allows a significant factor. It will always
:05:11. > :05:13.be there, but perhaps in a different context. I don't think this will be
:05:14. > :05:20.the trigger for a constitutional crisis. You have to admire the
:05:21. > :05:24.elegant choreography. I was told ages ago that she knew she could not
:05:25. > :05:28.keep carry on saying Brexit means Brexit, there will have to be new
:05:29. > :05:33.lines. This is beautiful. We kind of knew that Article 50 was going to be
:05:34. > :05:38.triggered early in next year. David Davis even said that. It was a fair
:05:39. > :05:44.bet it would be before Easter. They couldn't spend the next two years
:05:45. > :05:48.negotiating Brexit and refocusing the entire legislative programme to
:05:49. > :05:52.spend the next two years rejigging the mountain of legislation we are
:05:53. > :05:56.affected with. They have turned a logistical, unavoidable
:05:57. > :06:02.inevitability into a sense of momentum this weekend. Very clever
:06:03. > :06:09.presentation. There are going to be huge crises to come over this.
:06:10. > :06:14.Picking off the 1972 Act, putting it all into British law and
:06:15. > :06:18.legislation, rather than dependent on Europe, that is what the
:06:19. > :06:23.Brexiteers wanted. To that extent, she has thrown them a bit of red
:06:24. > :06:28.meat today? Yes, but we still don't know what Brexit is going to be. But
:06:29. > :06:34.a bit of red meat keeps you going for a while. Maybe get them through
:06:35. > :06:42.to lunch time. Today or tomorrow? Really just today. The tactic is to
:06:43. > :06:46.get some stuff about Brexit out, get them talking about that and then
:06:47. > :06:53.move onto agenda she wants, domestic. What do you think? Good
:06:54. > :06:59.luck with that! Are you reading my script coming up? It was on the
:07:00. > :07:02.autocue, I'm sorry! Clearly, she is accessed about not making his
:07:03. > :07:09.premiership all about Brexit. It will be, but she is desperate. She
:07:10. > :07:13.needs to define herself away from Brexit, who is Theresa May, what did
:07:14. > :07:16.she really believe? We have heard whispers, but the next few days as a
:07:17. > :07:26.chance to do that. The fringe, Liam Fox is talking at two fringes. Two
:07:27. > :07:29.opportunities for a story. David Davis as well. These two men of
:07:30. > :07:34.great talent and potentially great ego, they will not be able to stop
:07:35. > :07:41.themselves having feelings heard. And Boris. Boris who? I have not
:07:42. > :07:44.seen him on the fringes. Fringe meetings have been quite dull at
:07:45. > :07:50.party conferences recently. Because of this issue, I think people are
:07:51. > :07:52.going to pack them out. That is where words might be said, explosive
:07:53. > :07:55.words. We live for fringe meetings! The PM hopes her announcement
:07:56. > :07:58.will deal with Brexit on day one so the conference can get on to talk
:07:59. > :08:00.about other matters. But as you can see from this not
:08:01. > :08:10.so slim tome - the conference guide- there are plenty of other issues
:08:11. > :08:15.to talk, maybe even argue about. Our Ellie caught up with two Tory
:08:16. > :08:18.MPs from different sides of the party before they set off,
:08:19. > :08:21.to see what they think lies in store # Just can't wait to
:08:22. > :08:30.get on the road again # The life I love is making
:08:31. > :08:35.music with my friends # And I can't wait to get
:08:36. > :08:39.on the road again...# Do you actually enjoy going
:08:40. > :08:41.to conference? It's not as much fun
:08:42. > :08:45.as when you're not an MP, because now people want to talk
:08:46. > :08:48.to you and everybody But do you make contacts,
:08:49. > :08:53.do you network? Do think Theresa May gets
:08:54. > :08:57.nervous about conference, I think if you are performing
:08:58. > :09:02.on a big stage, whoever you are, you ought to have a few
:09:03. > :09:04.nerves jangling around. But she's a polished performer,
:09:05. > :09:07.I'm sure she'll know Theresa May will also know she has
:09:08. > :09:12.several contentious issues she needs It is perhaps not surprising,
:09:13. > :09:16.then, that day one of We're pretty well balanced
:09:17. > :09:26.between those of us like myself, representing constituencies
:09:27. > :09:27.with really high levels of research, science
:09:28. > :09:29.and agriculture, who will be very keen, but probably pragmatically
:09:30. > :09:32.understanding that we are not going to hear everything
:09:33. > :09:34.tomorrow, and the rest of the party who are just
:09:35. > :09:38.desperate for information. If they don't think the deal
:09:39. > :09:43.is going in the right way, they will want to say
:09:44. > :09:44.something about it. I think the time frame
:09:45. > :09:46.is pretty clear. We are going to trigger Article 50
:09:47. > :09:49.at some point relatively That means we will get
:09:50. > :09:53.the negotiations done a good year The rest is going to be
:09:54. > :09:57.important meat on the bones. But, in terms of the core strategy,
:09:58. > :09:59.Theresa May goes into this So, a unified front,
:10:00. > :10:03.albeit perhaps fragile. But then there is the question
:10:04. > :10:06.of grammar schools. Depends whether we hear
:10:07. > :10:09.more about it. You know, the concept
:10:10. > :10:11.in its one-dimensional sense, you can't have a problem
:10:12. > :10:16.with that, can you? Giving parents choice,
:10:17. > :10:18.giving bright children the chance But, for me, for many of us,
:10:19. > :10:22.it has to be a package Our teachers are pretty
:10:23. > :10:24.stressed and overworked I'm not actually sure
:10:25. > :10:28.this is the right time. I would rather see emphasis
:10:29. > :10:31.being put on fairer funding. Constituencies like mine have been
:10:32. > :10:33.underfunded for decades. If you go into politics
:10:34. > :10:35.and government scared of your own shadow, unprepared to do
:10:36. > :10:37.anything bold or brave, I think there is no risk-free
:10:38. > :10:42.option. Of course, people have different
:10:43. > :10:44.views on grammar schools and it is a totemic political
:10:45. > :10:46.issue as well. But I think if you read the green
:10:47. > :10:50.paper, the Prime Minister has set out a very sensible,
:10:51. > :10:52.carefully calibrated approach, not just to grammar
:10:53. > :10:53.schools but the wider The new PM also faces big strategic
:10:54. > :11:01.decisions on expensive projects like airport expansion,
:11:02. > :11:03.an area even her Cabinet With all these big infrastructure
:11:04. > :11:09.projects, HS2, Heathrow, issues around fracking,
:11:10. > :11:12.nuclear as well, I think we have got to take the right decisions
:11:13. > :11:15.for the country, make sure Britain Each one of those is
:11:16. > :11:21.thorny in its own right. But what I think is most important
:11:22. > :11:24.is we look at it very carefully, That is where we all start to see
:11:25. > :11:29.the metal in Theresa, Whilst on the one hand,
:11:30. > :11:33.having a Prime Minister - nobody could have been more
:11:34. > :11:36.delighted than me that we managed to cut the tax credits changes -
:11:37. > :11:39.but having a Prime Minister that sticks to her guns,
:11:40. > :11:41.I'm not for U-turning, How confident are you,
:11:42. > :11:46.going to this conference, that it is all going to be sorted
:11:47. > :11:50.and you are going to be Well, people predicted an economic
:11:51. > :11:53.nosedive after the referendum. People said there would
:11:54. > :11:55.be political chaos. Actually, the economy
:11:56. > :11:57.has proved resilient. I think there is a sense of resolve
:11:58. > :12:05.on all sides of the party on all of these different issues
:12:06. > :12:08.to get behind this Prime Minister Last year, you got into a bit
:12:09. > :12:13.of trouble, being quite vocal Some suggestion you weren't
:12:14. > :12:16.a proper conservative. I think I am absolutely
:12:17. > :12:19.a proper conservative. I think my party needed reminding
:12:20. > :12:23.what conservative was. Our job is to help people who need
:12:24. > :12:26.a leg up. Her opening speech in Downing Street
:12:27. > :12:35.told me she absolutely is. Like all of these things,
:12:36. > :12:37.we will hear more about this week. # And I can't wait to get on the
:12:38. > :12:48.road again. # And we're joined now
:12:49. > :12:50.by the Transport Secretary, who was a leading Leave campaigner,
:12:51. > :13:00.Chris Grayling. Welcome back to the programme. The
:13:01. > :13:08.great repeal act, what exactly does it repeal? It repeal the 1972
:13:09. > :13:11.European Communities Act. It means the European Court of Justice no
:13:12. > :13:14.longer has sway in the United Kingdom. It means the European
:13:15. > :13:19.Commission and Parliament no longer make laws for us. As of today, in
:13:20. > :13:25.our system, European law is supreme over UK law, and it repeal that.
:13:26. > :13:27.Except what it does is it consolidates all existing European
:13:28. > :13:32.legislation into British law. It would be more accurate to call it
:13:33. > :13:35.the great Consolidation act? Is This is what I argued for during the
:13:36. > :13:39.League campaign. The remaining campaign said you could not do it,
:13:40. > :13:44.it will take years, it will be a disaster. My response then is what
:13:45. > :13:49.it is now, the best way to do it is to consolidate existing legislation,
:13:50. > :13:53.much of which we will want to keep, the environmental measures, the
:13:54. > :13:57.workers' rights measures, what we want to do is to make sure we can
:13:58. > :14:00.get certainty before the event and after the event, for workers,
:14:01. > :14:05.businesses, but what the legal position will be. Over time, we have
:14:06. > :14:09.the freedom, outside the European Union, free from the control of the
:14:10. > :14:13.European Court, to change our legal system in the way that we want. It
:14:14. > :14:20.does mean we would leave the EU with all of this EU law still part of
:14:21. > :14:24.British law. Now, what would you wish to change in the aftermath?
:14:25. > :14:28.There is a whole variety of different things we will be looking
:14:29. > :14:31.at a change. For example, if you want a practical one, it is unlikely
:14:32. > :14:34.that after we have left the European Union we will still be paying child
:14:35. > :14:37.benefits to children that have never even entered the United Kingdom.
:14:38. > :14:42.That is the kind of thing we will be free to change after we have left.
:14:43. > :14:46.What else? Much of it we will want to keep, environmental measures, not
:14:47. > :14:50.all that has been done in the European Union for 40 years has been
:14:51. > :14:54.bad for Britain. How long will it take to pick all of this after we
:14:55. > :14:59.leave? Will be down to the Government to decide... Ten years?
:15:00. > :15:06.20 years? It will take it as long as we choose. What is right and proper
:15:07. > :15:10.is that on the day after there is a degree of certainty for businesses.
:15:11. > :15:13.It would not be fair for a company to be operating under a set of
:15:14. > :15:16.rules, for there to be a cliff edge where they do not know what is going
:15:17. > :15:23.to happen the day after. Let's make it an evolution, not a revolution. A
:15:24. > :15:26.lot of the things you have to agree to enter negotiations mean it will
:15:27. > :15:30.have to remain law even after we leave? This clearly the case that if
:15:31. > :15:33.a business in this country is continuing to sell a product in the
:15:34. > :15:37.European Union, it will have to make the standards of the European Union.
:15:38. > :15:40.Those rules will apply. That is the same if we're selling to the United
:15:41. > :15:46.States, the rules of the United States would apply to a business
:15:47. > :15:51.planning to sell a product there. What happens if you lose the vote?
:15:52. > :15:57.It is inconceivable that Parliament can look at the view of the British
:15:58. > :15:59.public and ignore it. Parliament voted overwhelmingly for the
:16:00. > :16:02.referendum to take place in the first place, the people have given a
:16:03. > :16:07.mandate and I am certain Parliament will fulfil it.
:16:08. > :16:14.What would happen? You have a majority of only 12 and there was a
:16:15. > :16:20.majority for remain in the Commons and there is a large majority in the
:16:21. > :16:25.house of lords. If the parliament does not seamlessly agree for what
:16:26. > :16:31.you call the great repeal act, what would happen? Both houses are full
:16:32. > :16:39.of Democrats and they will respect the will of the people. But we could
:16:40. > :16:44.be faced with a constitutional crisis? We have taken the decision
:16:45. > :16:48.to leave and parliament voted for the referendum and it is
:16:49. > :16:52.inconceivable that Parliament would not allow that process to go
:16:53. > :17:01.forward. If the inconceivable happen, you'd have to cores and --
:17:02. > :17:08.call an election. Inconceivable is a bit of a stretch. Plenty of voices,
:17:09. > :17:20.particularly in the House of Lords, would use this as a an opportunity
:17:21. > :17:23.to thwart you. And I don't think the House of Lords will turn around and
:17:24. > :17:28.say we should not fulfil that. There may be dissenting voices but they
:17:29. > :17:33.will view it as a democratic mandate that we have to fulfil. Has your
:17:34. > :17:39.party don soundings in the Commons to make sure you can get this
:17:40. > :17:43.through? I've not been involved in that discussion but parliament will
:17:44. > :17:48.respond to the will of the people. That's the way this country works.
:17:49. > :17:55.That's what you hope. We shall see how it works. We've been told by the
:17:56. > :18:00.Prime Minister this morning that article 50 will be triggered by the
:18:01. > :18:07.end of March. That means that we are out by Easter 2019. Can you confirm
:18:08. > :18:12.that those British members of the European Parliament currently in
:18:13. > :18:17.Strasberg, there will be no more for them after this. If we have left by
:18:18. > :18:23.the end of the two-year period. It is technically possible to extend
:18:24. > :18:38.it. After that period, there wouldn't be EP is after that point
:18:39. > :18:47.in 2019. -- MEPs. For Brexit to mean Brexit, the famous phrase, which is
:18:48. > :18:52.basically tautology. It would mean the freedom to have our own trade
:18:53. > :19:00.laws. It would mean the ability to do that? You are leading me to
:19:01. > :19:10.answer questions about the specific legal structures. It means our own
:19:11. > :19:16.free-trade deals? Correct. It would mean we are no longer subject to the
:19:17. > :19:27.rules of the European Court of Justice. Also correct. And we would
:19:28. > :19:31.have whatever control we desire over immigration? The Prime Minister has
:19:32. > :19:36.been clear that we need to control the flow of immigration into the
:19:37. > :19:41.country. Any of these counts as out from being a member of the single
:19:42. > :19:48.market. So can we agree that there is no way we can remain a member of
:19:49. > :19:52.the single market? There is no such thing as a member of the single
:19:53. > :19:57.market. There are a number of different trading agreements within
:19:58. > :20:00.the EU. We are effectively a member of the single market now but we
:20:01. > :20:07.can't be after this. The question you have asked me, do we want to be
:20:08. > :20:13.Norway, Switzerland, Canada when it comes to trading arrangements? We
:20:14. > :20:17.want to be the United Kingdom. We are the biggest customer of German
:20:18. > :20:25.car-makers, French farmers... I don't want to have the referendum
:20:26. > :20:30.fight again. It seems as black as black or as White is white that if
:20:31. > :20:35.you want all of that we cannot be a member, we can have access on terms
:20:36. > :20:40.yet to be agreed, we will have a relationship, but why cannot you say
:20:41. > :20:44.that we won't be a member in the way that we are currently a member of
:20:45. > :20:50.the single market? We won't be a member of the European Union but
:20:51. > :20:55.there is no such thing as a member of the single market. There is no
:20:56. > :21:01.single market in services, for example. There is but it is not as
:21:02. > :21:04.developed as goods. I believe we will end up with a trading
:21:05. > :21:09.partnership with the European Union on terms to be agreed that will work
:21:10. > :21:15.for both of us. Access but not membership. You cannot be a fully
:21:16. > :21:19.paid-up member of the single market without the European Court of
:21:20. > :21:29.Justice ruling on it and you don't want that. I don't understand your
:21:30. > :21:33.problem. Your pre-merging -- prejudging the outcome of
:21:34. > :21:36.negotiations. We want the best possible trading arrangements with
:21:37. > :21:41.European neighbours and that is what we will work towards. Where
:21:42. > :21:44.different to the other countries that have been involved in these
:21:45. > :21:48.negotiations before. We have heard all that before in the referendum
:21:49. > :21:55.and we wanted some clarity on what it would mean. Transport, when will
:21:56. > :21:59.you give is the decision on runway expansion? I'm not going to set a
:22:00. > :22:03.date today. I've spent the summer looking at the three different
:22:04. > :22:06.options. We have three very well presented packages. The airport
:22:07. > :22:11.commission has looked at it carefully and the Prime Minister and
:22:12. > :22:14.I want to understand the options in detail and understand the strengths
:22:15. > :22:21.and weaknesses of each and we will reach our decision shortly. I'm not
:22:22. > :22:28.going to set a date on it. Shortly means in this year, surely. I don't
:22:29. > :22:33.want to wait unnecessarily long to take the decision but nor do I want
:22:34. > :22:40.to set a date so to to work towards that. Will there be a free vote? I
:22:41. > :22:44.need to identify the best option for Britain and take the best possible
:22:45. > :22:52.approach to get the support of parliament Porritt. Will there be a
:22:53. > :22:58.free vote? Decisions have not been taken but we will do the best for
:22:59. > :23:04.the interests of the country. Theresa May has said the options for
:23:05. > :23:13.an expansion to Heathrow are seriously flawed. Philip Hammond has
:23:14. > :23:16.described the Heathrow option as dead as a Norwegian parrot. Can you
:23:17. > :23:21.be sure that the Prime Minister and Anna Chancellor will vote for your
:23:22. > :23:32.proposal? We are looking at three options that are very new. One of
:23:33. > :23:36.them is Heathrow. Warrant -- they are very different options to what
:23:37. > :23:41.has been proposed in the past. They are all very well crafted proposals.
:23:42. > :23:50.They are interesting and have potential and we need to decide.
:23:51. > :23:56.That is why I am asking you. HS2, high-speed train, can you state
:23:57. > :24:00.categorically it will go ahead? It's due to start construction in the
:24:01. > :24:09.spring. The hybrids Bill Haas to continue its passage through the
:24:10. > :24:22.house of law -- the hybrid Bill Haas to continue through its passage in
:24:23. > :24:29.the house of lords. Will it be 2026? Will it be on-time and on budget?
:24:30. > :24:33.The select committee of MPs said it is unlikely and will certainly be
:24:34. > :24:45.over budget. I expected be absolutely clear and on -- expected
:24:46. > :24:51.to be absolutely on-time and on budget. The latest estimate for
:24:52. > :24:58.phase one, the core cast is ?14 billion but there is contingency on
:24:59. > :25:06.top of that. How much? It is set to Treasury rules. It is always going
:25:07. > :25:11.to be over. If you really believed in the Northern powerhouse wouldn't
:25:12. > :25:18.this money be better spent instead of making it quicker to come to and
:25:19. > :25:23.Birmingham from London in under 90 minutes, which you already can,
:25:24. > :25:35.wouldn't it be better to spend the money on state of the art road links
:25:36. > :25:43.between East and West in the north. I think we need to do both. We can't
:25:44. > :25:51.get more freight onto rail without creating more space. By taking fast
:25:52. > :25:56.trains off the West Coast main line which is already busy and put fast
:25:57. > :26:01.freight trains onto the new route, you create more capacity for places
:26:02. > :26:06.like Milton Keynes Dons Northampton, Coventry. It is about making sure we
:26:07. > :26:09.have a transport system that can cope with the demands of the
:26:10. > :26:12.21st-century. Thank you very much. Now, as we speak, voters in Hungary
:26:13. > :26:16.are going to the polls to vote on whether to accept mandatory EU
:26:17. > :26:18.quotas for relocating migrants. The country's government has been
:26:19. > :26:21.campaigning for voters to reject the EU's proposals and has run
:26:22. > :26:23.a highly controversial campaign, accusing migrants of terrorism
:26:24. > :26:26.and crime - and the Prime Minister Viktor Orban has said today he'll
:26:27. > :26:28.quit if the country votes In response to the ongoing migrant
:26:29. > :26:33.crisis, the EU wants to establish a permanent European resettlement
:26:34. > :26:35.programme, under which, member states must take their fair
:26:36. > :26:37.share of asylum seekers, depending on the size of each
:26:38. > :26:41.country's population and economy. If countries refuse,
:26:42. > :26:44.the European Commission has proposed that they would incur a financial
:26:45. > :26:48.penalty of 250,000 euros per person, to cover the cost of another
:26:49. > :26:53.country taking them. Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter
:26:54. > :26:55.Szijjarto said the plan Last year, Hungary rejected
:26:56. > :27:00.an emergency EU plan that would have seen tens of thousands of refugees
:27:01. > :27:04.transferred out of the country in return for accepting a quota
:27:05. > :27:07.of almost 1300 refugees As an EU border country,
:27:08. > :27:13.Hungary has received 18,500 In 2015, it received the most asylum
:27:14. > :27:20.applications relative to its population of any EU state -
:27:21. > :27:25.1800 for every 100,000 local people, though the majority of those then
:27:26. > :27:28.travelled onwards to other Although the referendum
:27:29. > :27:35.result will have no affect on the EU's decision,
:27:36. > :27:37.the Hungarian government hopes the weight of public opinion
:27:38. > :27:40.will help it resist the plans, running a very controversial
:27:41. > :27:43.referendum campaign. For example, this poster saying
:27:44. > :27:45.migrants carried out We're joined now from Budapest
:27:46. > :27:59.by our Correspondent, Nick Thorpe. I understand that the polls are
:28:00. > :28:05.pretty clear that the government will win this referendum but it
:28:06. > :28:14.needs a turnout of at least 50% for it to matter. What indication of
:28:15. > :28:21.turnout so far? As of 11am, turnout was just over 16% of the electorate.
:28:22. > :28:27.We have an electrode of 8.3 million, the government is campaigning
:28:28. > :28:31.strongly for a no vote. The government have framed the question
:28:32. > :28:43.in such a way that it is hard to vote, yes, we do want this imposed
:28:44. > :28:50.on us. The issue of turnout is important because the opposition
:28:51. > :28:57.have campaigned not to vote or to spoil votes. Even if the government
:28:58. > :29:01.wins on the numbers, if more people vote against the quotas, is it a
:29:02. > :29:08.symbolic defeat for the government if that was to happen? Some people
:29:09. > :29:15.will argue it would be a symbolic defeat if they don't get 50%. We've
:29:16. > :29:19.heard that ministers are backing off the whole issue of turnout. They are
:29:20. > :29:26.hoping for at least 3 million people to vote. Even 4 million which would
:29:27. > :29:32.be the 50%, voting no to migrant quotas. They say that all of those
:29:33. > :29:36.votes will give them a strong moral hand. In the words of the Prime
:29:37. > :29:39.Minister, it will sharpen the Hungarian sword in the battles
:29:40. > :29:43.ahead. Thank you very much. Malin Bjork is Swedish
:29:44. > :29:46.MEP and Vice Chair of the Confederal Group
:29:47. > :29:59.of the European United Left Welcome to the programme. The quota
:30:00. > :30:05.system proposed already seem to be dying if the Hungarians vote the way
:30:06. > :30:12.they are expected to today, that will kill it, will it not? I think
:30:13. > :30:17.we should have it as a point of departure whether we have seen that
:30:18. > :30:25.Hungary is a model in any of the fields that we want hungry -- Europe
:30:26. > :30:29.to be. I don't think Hungary is the model. I don't think we should give
:30:30. > :30:34.him the kind of weight that he actually claims. He wants more
:30:35. > :30:41.weight to this referendum. I don't think we should give it to him.
:30:42. > :30:48.It is not just Hungary, is it? There are meant to be 100,000 migrants
:30:49. > :30:52.covered by the quota system, fewer than 5% have been covered by it. It
:30:53. > :30:58.is just not happening, whether Hungary votes for or against? No, it
:30:59. > :31:02.is totally... But that means it is not operational, it is simply not
:31:03. > :31:05.working. There are serious criticisms to have towards
:31:06. > :31:08.implementing partners in this. But I do think when it comes to the
:31:09. > :31:14.political course, Hungary is playing a very dangerous, racist and right
:31:15. > :31:19.nationalist game. I don't think we should adapt to it. If it comes to
:31:20. > :31:24.it, we have to be prepared to be behind those that do not want to be
:31:25. > :31:27.the Europe that is taking responsibility globally. Let me
:31:28. > :31:31.clarify what you mean by that. The Foreign Minister of Luxembourg has
:31:32. > :31:37.already said that Hungary should be expelled from the European Union. Is
:31:38. > :31:43.that what you are saying as well? No, no. You know what I think? As a
:31:44. > :31:49.progressive politician on the left side, I do have a lot of criticisms
:31:50. > :31:52.to the European Union. But there are planets apart from the kind of
:31:53. > :31:58.models that Viktor Orban is trying to build, where he does not respect
:31:59. > :32:02.human rights, laws and media freedoms, and now he attacks refugee
:32:03. > :32:07.rights. Given all of that, let's accept what you say is true about
:32:08. > :32:12.that, others may dispute it, but let's accept that as true, why
:32:13. > :32:16.should Hungary remain a member of the European Union? Well, it is up
:32:17. > :32:22.to each country that has voted to stay, and voted to become members,
:32:23. > :32:26.voting to stay, I don't think Orban has any intention of leaving EU. I
:32:27. > :32:30.think he wants more influence in the EU. I think he wants more influence
:32:31. > :32:33.domestic league through the referendum and more influence in the
:32:34. > :32:37.EU. The question the rest of the countries have to ask themselves is
:32:38. > :32:41.if we are going to give it to him or adapt to his politics in any of
:32:42. > :32:44.these fields he is active in? I think we should make a stand against
:32:45. > :32:48.it. We should have political forces in other countries that have exactly
:32:49. > :32:53.the same kind of agendas, which we don't want to see strengthened.
:32:54. > :32:58.Isn't the problem that may be Hungary is on the trend, and you are
:32:59. > :33:04.not? We have seem the right, some may call it the far right even, on
:33:05. > :33:08.the march in Austria, Poland and in Hungary, even in Germany, with the
:33:09. > :33:12.recent elections in Berlin and Angela Merkel's backyard, even
:33:13. > :33:20.progressive social Democratic Sweden, your third biggest party is
:33:21. > :33:24.now the Sweden, Democrats, a hard right nativist party. Why are forces
:33:25. > :33:28.on the move, and while the forces used and four on the defensive? The
:33:29. > :33:34.more progressive forces, I think they are growing in many countries
:33:35. > :33:39.also, such as Spain, Ireland and other countries. It is not just for
:33:40. > :33:41.the left, it is for the broader political spectrum to counteract
:33:42. > :33:46.nationalist, right-wing and racist forces. We know where they lead, a
:33:47. > :33:51.dead end. It is a challenge in the European countries. Why is Europe
:33:52. > :33:59.going in this direction? In 2016, why are the forces of the rights so
:34:00. > :34:05.strong? To be honest, I think we have to be a little bit more humble
:34:06. > :34:09.and say are we failing people in some way? Yes, austerity policies
:34:10. > :34:14.are not working. Inequalities have grown for over 20 years in Europe.
:34:15. > :34:19.Of course it is a failure. We are capable of saving banks, but not
:34:20. > :34:22.refugees. People see this. It is political failure and I think we
:34:23. > :34:26.have to sit down and create different pacifists. What is
:34:27. > :34:30.happening now is worrying. I see some of the political forces in
:34:31. > :34:35.Europe. -- create different patterns. I see parties in Europe
:34:36. > :34:43.adapting to racism nationalist voices. I think we have to be the
:34:44. > :34:50.different parties that will not adapt to nationalist stories. They
:34:51. > :34:54.paint imaginary enemies. A huge chunk of Hungary's public spending
:34:55. > :34:58.comes from the European Union, net contributors like Sweden and the
:34:59. > :35:05.United Kingdom. If Hungary votes this way, should that continue?
:35:06. > :35:09.Should we continue to bankroll it? The way Europe and the European
:35:10. > :35:14.Union, individual members develop, of course we should lead discussions
:35:15. > :35:21.about money and heel spending to the respect for rule of law, the respect
:35:22. > :35:24.for human rights and the respect for international rights that are being
:35:25. > :35:27.infringed by the Hungarian government. Of course, we have to
:35:28. > :35:31.have such a discussion and it has to be frank.
:35:32. > :35:33.It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.
:35:34. > :35:36.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:35:37. > :35:50.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:35:51. > :35:53.An agreement to resolve a bitterly disputed parade has been hailed
:35:54. > :35:57.We ask, how can the two communities in North Belfast
:35:58. > :36:02.And is this deal a sign that perhaps all contentious parades
:36:03. > :36:06.That's what I'll be discussing with Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly
:36:07. > :36:11.And our commentators, Chris Donnelly and Lesley Carroll -
:36:12. > :36:13.both, of course, with strong links to North Belfast -
:36:14. > :36:18.And we'll hear live from Stephen Walker in Birmingham
:36:19. > :36:31.Does the ending of one of the most contentious parades in recent years
:36:32. > :36:34.mean that all disputes can now be dealt with and agreed locally?
:36:35. > :36:37.Just over 24 hours ago an Orange Order parade past Ardoyne
:36:38. > :36:41.shops ended the three-year protest camp at nearby Twaddell Avenue,
:36:42. > :36:44.with a residents' organisation and the Orange Order
:36:45. > :36:47.committing themselves to a forum which will agree
:36:48. > :36:52.With me now to reflect on the wider implications of yesterday's
:36:53. > :36:55.resolution of such a seemingly intractable problem
:36:56. > :36:58.are Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly - an MLA for North Belfast,
:36:59. > :37:05.of course - and the DUP's Sir Jeffrey Donaldson.
:37:06. > :37:09.Welcome to the programme. Gerry Kelly, first of all.
:37:10. > :37:15.Is that the Twaddell issue dealt with once and for all in your view?
:37:16. > :37:24.Interestingly, the last commentary was seemingly intractable and that
:37:25. > :37:29.has been a difficulty, we never thought of it as tractable. A line
:37:30. > :37:36.runs through all the local issues about having conversation, people
:37:37. > :37:42.have been in conflict for a long time. There have been conversations,
:37:43. > :37:49.we have an agreement around evening parades which were most contentious
:37:50. > :37:55.and it augurs well for expanding out, into wider conversations about
:37:56. > :37:57.what we can do in the wider area without the issue of contentious
:37:58. > :38:04.parades jumping into the middle every time you try to talk with
:38:05. > :38:09.someone of a different opinion. What is your understanding about the
:38:10. > :38:16.agreement on future parades? The agreement says there is a moratorium
:38:17. > :38:20.and a forum will be setup and if there is an agreement, the
:38:21. > :38:24.moratoriums... But if that is an agreement, presumably unionists
:38:25. > :38:28.would point out to be an agreement that isn't the case that
:38:29. > :38:34.nationalists will never reach such an agreement? There is a chance the
:38:35. > :38:38.two interpret it differently. You wore a journalist and will try to
:38:39. > :38:43.interpret this. I know that's what people are saying on but the general
:38:44. > :38:49.view of people in Ardoyne is that the parade cause all sorts of
:38:50. > :38:54.difficulties in the area, especially in community relations. The view of
:38:55. > :39:00.the Orange Order is that they want to move on, why do we have an
:39:01. > :39:04.agreement? There was talk about trust but agreement either because
:39:05. > :39:12.there is a lack of trust. We have an agreement that says one will do a if
:39:13. > :39:14.the other does B, so we're at the point of conversations meaning
:39:15. > :39:19.something. The Orange Order did what they said they would do, the Crumlin
:39:20. > :39:24.Ardoyne Residents' Association did what they said they would do and we
:39:25. > :39:32.will move on, but I hope the wider issues will be dealt with without
:39:33. > :39:35.this difficulty. To be clear, is it your understanding that those from
:39:36. > :39:40.the nationalist side of the hosts who go into that forum understand
:39:41. > :39:46.that it is a possible outcome that there would be a future or future
:39:47. > :39:52.parades home in future? Everybody understands that if you have a forum
:39:53. > :39:56.and the dialogue, and it will be face to face, they will discuss the
:39:57. > :40:03.outcomes. And all outcomes are on the table? Yes, and it is up to CARA
:40:04. > :40:09.and the Orange Order to deal with that. I do not want to start dealing
:40:10. > :40:16.with what will be a job for them to do, but as a politician in the area,
:40:17. > :40:20.there are wider issues we can now hopefully have relationships which
:40:21. > :40:23.are not just one or two but 50 people from Ardoyne were from
:40:24. > :40:32.Twaddell Avenue talking to each other. Jeffrey Donaldson, you
:40:33. > :40:39.believe the forum will make progress of the outstanding issues like
:40:40. > :40:43.return parades? I believe it can. I think dialogue and local
:40:44. > :40:48.accommodations are the way forward. In 2010 when we last brought forward
:40:49. > :40:54.proposals for dealing with parades in its wider context, this is the
:40:55. > :40:59.kind of template we envisaged for dealing with local parade disputes
:41:00. > :41:04.and I welcome this. I think it is a good sign, I hope both sides will
:41:05. > :41:09.not engage in good faith and I have no reason to believe they weren't,
:41:10. > :41:14.and they will find an accommodation that addresses the Parades
:41:15. > :41:19.Commission. But you will be aware that the charge against the
:41:20. > :41:23.agreement is that there is a healthy dollop of constructive ambiguity in
:41:24. > :41:28.their and it is possible for the two sides to read it differently. And
:41:29. > :41:37.that has been the case with many agreements. Yes, we are very good at
:41:38. > :41:41.it here. The big challenge is whether people make the most of what
:41:42. > :41:47.is in front of them. I am encouraged by what I have heard, I think people
:41:48. > :41:55.will make the best of it, people are approaching this with the best
:41:56. > :41:59.intentions, there isn't a hidden agenda to overcome the immediate
:42:00. > :42:05.problem, you walk off the road and that is the end of it. I don't think
:42:06. > :42:10.that is where we are coming from. You are now a fan of constructive
:42:11. > :42:15.ambiguity? In the past you railed against it, you wanted everything to
:42:16. > :42:22.be out in the open and no subtext, now you are saying it isn't bad. I
:42:23. > :42:26.said it has been a reality that has marked the peace process. What we
:42:27. > :42:31.have done is make the best and to draw upon what is available to make
:42:32. > :42:38.things work in Northern Ireland and that is what we have done. Different
:42:39. > :42:42.people will interpret agreements in different ways, even if there wasn't
:42:43. > :42:47.constructive ambiguity that would be the case anyway and that is the
:42:48. > :42:53.reality of life here. The question of where we go now, people honoured
:42:54. > :42:56.what they said they would do yesterday and that is encouraging
:42:57. > :43:03.and they followed through. Secondly it is about leadership and I believe
:43:04. > :43:08.there is good leadership on both sides that can help resolve this
:43:09. > :43:11.issue for the longer term in North Belfast, but also there were lessons
:43:12. > :43:17.we can draw from this for the wider parading issue. Let me disagree on
:43:18. > :43:23.this, it's not constructive ambiguity. There is a statement in
:43:24. > :43:31.the agreement which says that there is a moratorium from yesterday,
:43:32. > :43:34.that's not constructive ambiguity. It is if the two sides read it
:43:35. > :43:40.differently. But they aren't reading it differently. You said you were
:43:41. > :43:45.also hearing on the grounds that different individuals read things
:43:46. > :43:49.differently. If I didn't say it clearly, is I said it was obvious on
:43:50. > :43:55.the ground that people of the Ardoyne did not want the parades
:43:56. > :43:59.through and the Orange Order want the parades through, that is a fact.
:44:00. > :44:04.The agreement is understood by both sides to mean exactly what it says
:44:05. > :44:09.and all these agreements are pretty well crafted. Let me bring in the
:44:10. > :44:16.commentators and hear what they have to say. Chris Donnelly, you read
:44:17. > :44:21.that statement with a degree of constructive ambiguity? Can't you
:44:22. > :44:26.see how both sides of the dispute could interpret it differently or do
:44:27. > :44:38.you think it's black and white? I think it's important to be honest,
:44:39. > :44:42.technically speaking the GARC spokespersons said that had Sinn
:44:43. > :44:46.Fein not offer a disparate, there would never have been returned
:44:47. > :44:52.parade, because then it begins to shape why they made this offer of
:44:53. > :44:57.the steel and I think it was because of the perspective of Sinn Fein are
:44:58. > :45:02.the DUP, they wanted to be seen to reach a hand-out, the loyalists and
:45:03. > :45:07.the Orange Order had dug themselves into a hole, by making themselves 81
:45:08. > :45:14.and done deal, this parade will not be repeated, this is where the
:45:15. > :45:20.ambiguity comes in, because of the term moratoriums it is very unlikely
:45:21. > :45:24.there will be a deal and only the Irish News has mentioned that
:45:25. > :45:29.publicly because politicians have been dancing around it. I do not
:45:30. > :45:33.envisage return parades for the foreseeable future. I think the
:45:34. > :45:37.reason why this parade offer was made was to create the ground in
:45:38. > :45:44.which he linked and reconciliation can take place and we can move on.
:45:45. > :45:48.That is the point I am trying to get that, that for unionists who are
:45:49. > :45:52.party to this agreement, they still hope there will be future parades.
:45:53. > :45:57.Chris seems to suggest there is no appetite for that in the nationalist
:45:58. > :46:04.community, hence make use of the phrase constructive ambiguity. Yes,
:46:05. > :46:10.and that may be the case but both sides to this understand that this
:46:11. > :46:13.is not all about parading, there are a lot of issues underneath which
:46:14. > :46:18.contribute to how each of the sides feel and what they expect in the
:46:19. > :46:22.future, so what I understand this agreement to do is creating that
:46:23. > :46:29.space in which all those issues can be addressed, parading as part of it
:46:30. > :46:33.but when you were in a forum where 50 people will encounter each other,
:46:34. > :46:40.they will talk about education and social deprivation, information
:46:41. > :46:44.sharing, a big issue for the loyalist committee, they don't feel
:46:45. > :46:49.they get information and that now needs to happen inside the forum.
:46:50. > :46:56.Maybe that is the point Jeffrey was making, it is not just going to be a
:46:57. > :47:00.forum discussing future return parades, it's a much bigger agenda.
:47:01. > :47:05.In my opinion it has to be, not necessarily in the forum but the
:47:06. > :47:11.dialogue, the process of conversation has to be broadened
:47:12. > :47:15.out. There are good relationships, and Lesley and Chris know this,
:47:16. > :47:20.there have always been good relationships across the political
:47:21. > :47:24.views but they are nearly individual relationships. What I want to see,
:47:25. > :47:30.and I think this gives the start to it, is the ability for people on a
:47:31. > :47:34.weekly basis to be talking about all things like Lesley said which mean
:47:35. > :47:40.something to people and that is what has been difficult to get in North
:47:41. > :47:47.Belfast. Interesting, Jeffrey, it's good to have you with us. We were
:47:48. > :47:52.not able to find a single unionist who would take part in the
:47:53. > :47:57.discussion on The View on Thursday night. We have heard claims recently
:47:58. > :48:02.and going back several years of an absence of leadership by the main
:48:03. > :48:10.unionist parties on this issue. Do you accept that? Know, and I think
:48:11. > :48:14.people may have been reluctant to speak on Thursday because before the
:48:15. > :48:18.events of yesterday people did not want to be drawn into saying
:48:19. > :48:26.something... Gerry Kelly was happy to take part. That is a call for
:48:27. > :48:30.Sinn Fein to make but I do not think it is about the lack of leadership.
:48:31. > :48:34.Behind-the-scenes there have been unionist representatives in North
:48:35. > :48:40.Belfast who have been encouraging this process. But not standing up in
:48:41. > :48:47.public and defending it. I'm here today and doing that. You weren't on
:48:48. > :48:53.Thursday. We wanted to see how things went. In the past week had
:48:54. > :48:59.this a few weeks ago and the wheels came off and we didn't want that to
:49:00. > :49:04.happen. So the unionist leadership didn't back itself to come on and
:49:05. > :49:08.support the deal. I'm not saying that, I am saying there was a
:49:09. > :49:13.feeling, let's leave the airways clear for a few days to let this
:49:14. > :49:19.event takes place and then we can comment, and let me be clear, we
:49:20. > :49:23.support what has happened, we believe that the accommodation that
:49:24. > :49:30.has been reached here is something that could be repeated in other
:49:31. > :49:33.areas. We want to see a broader solution, we recognised that
:49:34. > :49:37.disputes over parades are symptoms of a deeper problem that we need to
:49:38. > :49:43.address, we're up for that, the Fresh Start agreement outlines
:49:44. > :49:49.measures that we intend to take to address these things, so far from
:49:50. > :49:53.shying away from this, the Fresh Start agreement creates the context
:49:54. > :50:00.in which we can continue to progress and reach local accommodation as
:50:01. > :50:04.occurred this weekend. And does that mean the Parades Commission can be
:50:05. > :50:08.done away with and the Executive office run by your parties can come
:50:09. > :50:16.up with an alternative to which? I think you are ahead of it there.
:50:17. > :50:21.That is part of the conversation. I do not think it is time for the
:50:22. > :50:26.Parades Commission to go away, I would argue this was the hardest
:50:27. > :50:32.issue we dealt with, we have moved into a new era. I don't like to
:50:33. > :50:37.overemphasise this but locally and throughout Belfast this is a great
:50:38. > :50:41.move forward. There are still others and there risk at the red that you
:50:42. > :50:46.cannot put one on top of another because there are always local
:50:47. > :50:50.issues but that the red running through it, every negotiation we
:50:51. > :50:55.have been involved in, once you start talking you work on the right
:50:56. > :51:00.road. Do you think the time has come for the end of the Parades
:51:01. > :51:06.Commission? I think there is a basis for moving forward. We outline ideas
:51:07. > :51:07.in 2010 and I think we can build on those ideas and what happened
:51:08. > :51:09.yesterday. It's just a couple of hours
:51:10. > :51:12.until Theresa May's opening address to the Conservative Party conference
:51:13. > :51:15.and she certainly has everyone's attention with this morning's
:51:16. > :51:17.announcement that the process to begin withdrawing from the EU
:51:18. > :51:19.will be triggered before the end of March next year.
:51:20. > :51:22.At the conference in Birmingham is our political correspondent,
:51:23. > :51:24.Stephen Walker. That's the date in the diary
:51:25. > :51:28.everyone's been waiting to hear. How's that announcement
:51:29. > :51:39.gone down in Birmingham? This morning I have been speaking to
:51:40. > :51:43.some Conservative Party activists and they were delighted that the
:51:44. > :51:48.reason of May have said this. We have been having this debate for
:51:49. > :51:52.months, when with things move forward? She kept saying Brexit
:51:53. > :51:57.means Brexit and people in the party and media were getting bored by
:51:58. > :52:01.that, they wanted a new life and people felt she couldn't come to
:52:02. > :52:06.this conference, she had to say something new. People felt she
:52:07. > :52:11.couldn't go into the debate today without saying something new so she
:52:12. > :52:15.said Article 50 will be triggered before March and people in the
:52:16. > :52:18.Conservative Party are generally pleased and I think she will get a
:52:19. > :52:20.good reception this afternoon. You've been speaking to Theresa May
:52:21. > :52:22.about Brexit and its impact on Northern Ireland and,
:52:23. > :52:31.of course, what it will mean Yes, we had an interview in Downing
:52:32. > :52:35.Street before the conference, we talked about Brexit and the border,
:52:36. > :52:42.our first interview talking about Northern Ireland and let's look at
:52:43. > :52:46.part of that. What we are both clear about, myself and the Irish
:52:47. > :52:52.government, and the government in Northern Ireland, is that we don't
:52:53. > :52:57.want to see a return to the borders of the past but we will work closely
:52:58. > :53:02.together to make sure we can see movement across the water. But you
:53:03. > :53:07.campaign in Northern Ireland to remain and said a leave vote would
:53:08. > :53:12.result in some form of tariffs and controls, so have you changed your
:53:13. > :53:19.mind? I don't think I used those words, I said of course if we leave
:53:20. > :53:22.and have land border with the EU, that changes that relationship
:53:23. > :53:27.across the border but what I am clear about what might you said it
:53:28. > :53:33.would be inconceivable that there wouldn't be some kind of change.
:53:34. > :53:40.There would be a land border with a country in the EU, but I think all
:53:41. > :53:44.parties are very clear that there is the intent and will to make sure we
:53:45. > :53:52.have an arrangement that isn't a return to the borders of the past.
:53:53. > :53:58.How do you police that? We're discussing how we can develop these
:53:59. > :54:01.ideas to make sure we deliver on the intention of all parties that we
:54:02. > :54:08.don't return to the borders of the past. We're looking at Brexit
:54:09. > :54:12.negotiations and these will take time, there are complexities in
:54:13. > :54:17.those negotiations but we want to ensure we continue to have a good
:54:18. > :54:22.relationship with Europe. I want to see over all the UK having the right
:54:23. > :54:23.deal in terms of trades and goods and services.
:54:24. > :54:26.What else should we be looking out for over the next few days?
:54:27. > :54:30.Will the new Secretary of State get his moment in the sun?
:54:31. > :54:38.Yes, that will be on Tuesday, it will be a busy day. We have that
:54:39. > :54:44.traditional Ulster fry on Tuesday morning, of -- Arlene Foster and
:54:45. > :54:51.Francie Molloy and James Brokenshire will be there, he will talk to the
:54:52. > :54:58.conference and then at lunchtime something unusual, a champagne
:54:59. > :55:03.reception being hosted by the DUP. That may not have happened in Ian
:55:04. > :55:06.Paisley's day, I've heard of champagne socialists but this is the
:55:07. > :55:13.first time I have heard of champagne unionist. An interesting move away
:55:14. > :55:15.from the Devil's buttermilk, as Ian Paisley would have had it.
:55:16. > :55:16.Stephen Walker in Birmingham, thank you.
:55:17. > :55:19.Time now for a look back at the political week in 60
:55:20. > :55:37.The opposition and set the Assembly, to keep the focus on Nama. People
:55:38. > :55:39.need to know Northern Ireland is a clean place to do business.
:55:40. > :55:41.The blame game began as it was revealed that a report
:55:42. > :55:53.We had a missed opportunity for a party discussion. The party didn't
:55:54. > :55:56.block it and some of the allegations made like saying Northern Ireland
:55:57. > :55:59.would take an immediate economic hit have been shown to be false.
:56:00. > :56:01.And the result of that referendum is causing problems
:56:02. > :56:11.We have 120 million euros of offers for cross-border prospects and they
:56:12. > :56:13.are logjam. And as the BBC charter was debated,
:56:14. > :56:24.one MLA suggested the Assembly It might be interesting to study the
:56:25. > :56:27.viewing figures of Stormont Today for insomniacs and burglars.
:56:28. > :56:29.A chippy Danny Kennedy ending Gareth Gordon's look back
:56:30. > :56:35.And let's have a final word from Chris and Lesley.
:56:36. > :56:44.To go back to Birmingham, Lesley, and Theresa Walker talking about
:56:45. > :56:49.Theresa May saying she will trigger Article 50 by the end of next March,
:56:50. > :56:55.so we know what timescale we are looking at. Its news and it's not
:56:56. > :57:00.news, we all knew it would soon happen but we now want to know
:57:01. > :57:04.content. It's great that the snap the beginning and the end but I
:57:05. > :57:11.would like more content. And more information about the issue of
:57:12. > :57:15.border controls. She was keen in that interview to stress a different
:57:16. > :57:21.tone to the one she had before the referendum, she wants to work with
:57:22. > :57:27.the Irish government to minimise the impact of the border, and also this
:57:28. > :57:31.week other Tory ex-ministers, John Redwood and Iain Duncan Smith,
:57:32. > :57:35.prepared their own Brexit blueprint and it shows the path is fraught
:57:36. > :57:41.with dangers fought to reason makes because other sides want to
:57:42. > :57:44.emphasise angles. Enda Kenny has said he wants to have this
:57:45. > :57:50.All-Ireland Brexit conversation in Dublin. The DUP and Full Street
:57:51. > :57:56.unionists are not going. Is that a mistake? I think it is in that
:57:57. > :58:02.Brexit matters to the Irish greatly in terms of the border, it has to
:58:03. > :58:06.matter to us as well and it's better if they all have a conversation.
:58:07. > :58:13.Edwin Poots was an the view on Thursday night, not interested and
:58:14. > :58:17.said it was a waste of his time. I think it's the instinctive unionist
:58:18. > :58:22.hostility to anything All-Ireland but there will be voices that might
:58:23. > :58:30.open the week unionists, perhaps involved in the CBI for agricultural
:58:31. > :58:33.interests, who will be keen on having their views expressed and
:58:34. > :58:38.have another chance to take forward their concerns. It will be
:58:39. > :58:39.interesting to see when it happens and we will be sitting around the
:58:40. > :58:40.table. Back to Andrew in London.
:58:41. > :58:44.a much better job than And we're joined now by the former
:58:45. > :59:03.Work and Pensions Secretary and Leave campaigner,
:59:04. > :59:20.Iain Duncan Smith. it you said we could be out of the
:59:21. > :59:25.European Union by 2018? My senses if you keep their process as simple as
:59:26. > :59:29.possible and don't try to get special pleading and try to be a
:59:30. > :59:33.member of the single market which they are not going to grant you, if
:59:34. > :59:40.you go for a clear and simple position on trade and find an
:59:41. > :59:47.agreement then the more complex issues then disappear. Theresa May
:59:48. > :59:54.has said that when she brings the act forward to repeal the 1972 act,
:59:55. > :59:59.at the same time you binding the European Law and you speed the
:00:00. > :00:03.process up. Keeping it simple, keeping up pace is what we
:00:04. > :00:08.recommended. It allows you to get the end point quicker.
:00:09. > :00:14.You talk about member of the single market, Chris Grayling told me there
:00:15. > :00:21.was no such thing, which slightly puzzled me. You clearly think that
:00:22. > :00:24.there is. What you want, as I understand it, is a free-trade
:00:25. > :00:29.agreement with the European Union. That could not be done by 2018? We
:00:30. > :00:31.want free trade. There are two approaches to getting free trade
:00:32. > :00:38.with the European Union. The first is that you say, OK, in this
:00:39. > :00:43.process, if we sympathise and ask ourselves, if we now have a new
:00:44. > :00:49.relationship, we have left, we want capital goods, we want to access
:00:50. > :00:53.each other's markets, it benefits you more than us, but we are happy
:00:54. > :00:57.not to have tariff barriers on your trade, we have an agreement of no
:00:58. > :01:02.tariff barriers. Financial services are outside, a separate issue, more
:01:03. > :01:05.of a regulatory issue. That is also approaching a deal on equivalence
:01:06. > :01:10.that we could accelerate. The point I am saying is if you do not go down
:01:11. > :01:13.the road trying to nominate individual bits and pieces and say
:01:14. > :01:17.it is a good agreement for us both, you could reach that by agreement.
:01:18. > :01:23.If you don't and you can't, you could fall back on the WTO
:01:24. > :01:25.arrangements and say, well, later on, we will continue that
:01:26. > :01:31.negotiation discussion to decide whether or not we want a free-trade
:01:32. > :01:35.position. If you fall back on that, what you say to the boss of Nissan,
:01:36. > :01:41.who says he will not invest again in this unless the government back row
:01:42. > :01:45.compensates him, he faces tariffs? The answer to that is that first of
:01:46. > :01:49.all I did not believe we will end up in a situation where it is, in any
:01:50. > :01:54.way, a financial benefit for the European Union to want to impose any
:01:55. > :02:00.kind tariff. Right now you are 12% better off anyway. The level of the
:02:01. > :02:04.pound has made it 12% more competitive with European partners,
:02:05. > :02:09.even if you slapped on 10% tariff. It goes up and down, but you asking
:02:10. > :02:13.him to take investment decisions, multi-billion pound decisions, head
:02:14. > :02:23.of Jaguar, saying roughly the same thing, at a time of real
:02:24. > :02:27.uncertainty. Until it is resolved, investment in Britain will slow
:02:28. > :02:30.down, if not dry up? They invest because this is a darn good place to
:02:31. > :02:33.sell your businesses. You heard from the head of the publishing sector in
:02:34. > :02:37.Germany, he said Britain in five years' time will be much more
:02:38. > :02:45.profitable than anywhere else and will be the boom place. Outside the
:02:46. > :02:48.European Union it will be more flexible to set out arrangements. I
:02:49. > :02:53.am with him on this. I was in business before I came into
:02:54. > :02:57.politics. Nobody knows what the future holds for anything. For car
:02:58. > :03:01.makers and others that want to build stuff, they are here because they
:03:02. > :03:07.want a flexible workforce, much lower levels of cost, and a much
:03:08. > :03:11.better contract law base. 85% of Nissan's output goes to the single
:03:12. > :03:17.market. That is right, they also sell here. 15%? You are not suddenly
:03:18. > :03:21.going to meet a massive tariff wall, a closet is not in the interests of
:03:22. > :03:25.the European Union to set up a massive tariffs. Guess who sells
:03:26. > :03:29.more to us than we do to them? The European Union. The Germans
:03:30. > :03:33.themselves are behind-the-scenes talking to us. We had a lot of that
:03:34. > :03:38.during the referendum. Let me move onto some other things. Damian Green
:03:39. > :03:42.is now running your old department. He is scrapping repeated tests for
:03:43. > :03:49.the seriously disabled, people that you know are not going to be able to
:03:50. > :03:54.improve. Why didn't you do that? We wanted to change this, it was a
:03:55. > :03:58.programme given to us by the last Labour government, we did quite a
:03:59. > :04:01.lot to improve it. The big problem, the programme as it exists at the
:04:02. > :04:04.moment, it does not deal with health conditions, it deals with ability to
:04:05. > :04:08.work. That is the problem. If you want to scrap it for people with
:04:09. > :04:12.health conditions, you have to change the criteria by which they
:04:13. > :04:24.are being assessed. That has always been the issue. For disability
:04:25. > :04:26.payments, it is a different matter. They are assessed on their
:04:27. > :04:28.condition. The problem for that... He will stop the assessments of
:04:29. > :04:31.people that are seriously disabled, why didn't you do that? This is not
:04:32. > :04:32.seriously disabled, it is people that suffer from sickness
:04:33. > :04:37.conditions, not necessarily full-time disability. There are two
:04:38. > :04:40.elements. When I was in Government, we have always set out a process
:04:41. > :04:46.that said we needed to change the way the sickness benefit system was
:04:47. > :04:50.assessed. That was so you could rule out conditions, some progressive,
:04:51. > :04:54.some absolute, on a medical basis, on the approval of the Health
:04:55. > :04:57.Service, so they would say this is a condition that will change, it will
:04:58. > :05:01.mean they cannot work now but they might be able to work for a bit. You
:05:02. > :05:06.put it into a box marked medical conditions. That was already on the
:05:07. > :05:12.box. He has just done that, to acclaim. Why didn't you do it, if it
:05:13. > :05:15.is that simple? We needed to get agreement in Government and we have
:05:16. > :05:21.not reached the Provo ease approval. It is a wider plan. This could have
:05:22. > :05:28.been incremented on its own? But you have to change the way you do it. I
:05:29. > :05:32.was in favour of a bigger plan that brought in changes all into one,
:05:33. > :05:35.because they are competing with each other and do not have the kind of
:05:36. > :05:39.effect that you want. It is the right thing to do. Until now, there
:05:40. > :05:42.have not been a huge number of assessments taking place because the
:05:43. > :05:49.system has not been able to cover it. There is a lot of talk about
:05:50. > :05:53.trying to reposition the Tory party on the centre ground, even the
:05:54. > :06:00.centre-left, talking about worker's rights and so on. It is not credible
:06:01. > :06:03.until she does something. 6 million people earn less than the Living
:06:04. > :06:07.Wage, after six years of Conservative government. 6 million
:06:08. > :06:11.people earn less than the Living Wage. That is the reality, not Tory
:06:12. > :06:21.erect a wreck that we are hearing in the hall. -- that is the Tory
:06:22. > :06:27.rhetoric. Raising the minimum wage was making sure that you identify
:06:28. > :06:32.that and raise the blood. There are still 6 million below. The mantra of
:06:33. > :06:41.this government was to make work pay. 50% of families in poverty have
:06:42. > :06:45.at least one family member working. They are still in poverty, waiting,
:06:46. > :06:51.doing difficult and unpleasant jobs, long hours, they are still in
:06:52. > :06:58.poverty. Many people in this country work and still it is the equivalent
:06:59. > :07:02.of poverty. That does not pay, work does not pay for them. Huge problems
:07:03. > :07:11.down the low skill level of work. This is the one area, the level of
:07:12. > :07:17.skills at that point is arguably some of the lowest in the Western
:07:18. > :07:20.world. Companies too often do not invest in skills because of the
:07:21. > :07:24.nature of the tax credit system, you have them in packets of 16 hours, it
:07:25. > :07:28.is not worth investing. Universal Credit will change all of that quite
:07:29. > :07:33.dramatically. It allows people to work more of the hours, invest more
:07:34. > :07:36.in them. The second aspect is back to the migration issue. That has had
:07:37. > :07:42.a very damaging effect on low workers. There are two elements of
:07:43. > :07:45.this. It is not just the statutory migration, it is that what happened
:07:46. > :07:52.is that a lot of people come for under one year. They do part-time
:07:53. > :07:56.work, they claim full benefits, Migration Watch proved it is over 4
:07:57. > :08:01.billion per year. That allows them to go and do cash in hand work. It
:08:02. > :08:06.is a big problem, it has only now become clear how damaging that has
:08:07. > :08:10.become to British people working at low income level. What does this
:08:11. > :08:15.party, if it is this self-styled Workers Party, what does it have to
:08:16. > :08:20.do in a country where 6 million people get less than the Living
:08:21. > :08:23.Wage, 50% of people in poverty are already in work and poverty levels
:08:24. > :08:35.among those in work are at record levels. So much for the worker's
:08:36. > :08:39.party? The answer is it has to do a lot, we have been talking about
:08:40. > :08:44.Brexit a lot, Theresa May has dropped a lot of hints about what
:08:45. > :08:49.she wants to do. The announcement yesterday morning about this massive
:08:50. > :08:54.review, led by a Blairite, Matthew Taylor, to completely re-examine
:08:55. > :09:01.employment rights. Thereby meaning, for the low paid and the casual
:09:02. > :09:08.workers, holiday pay for Uber drivers, it opens a massive area of
:09:09. > :09:19.things, grammar schools... You need high-quality technology schools to
:09:20. > :09:24.up-skill its? She has all of this on her agenda, possibly more
:09:25. > :09:30.interesting than even Brexit. I was planning not to mention Brexit in
:09:31. > :09:33.this segment, but I think I did. There was a lot of flesh to be put
:09:34. > :09:40.on his bones before it is convincing? Theresa May is playing a
:09:41. > :09:44.political game of trying to dump the nasty party image, become a more
:09:45. > :09:50.compassionate conservative. She is changing from the David Cameron era,
:09:51. > :09:55.instead of being the bottom 10% or 15% of people that he was focusing
:09:56. > :10:00.on, as well as the wealthier elite, she is looking at the people earning
:10:01. > :10:05.more than ?16,000, up to ?21,000, those who have children that are not
:10:06. > :10:10.on free school meals, not the most deprived, she calls them the just
:10:11. > :10:13.managing classes, they might have one for holiday each year, they
:10:14. > :10:18.might want to send their kids to piano lessons or the local Football
:10:19. > :10:22.Club, they are not the poorest people on welfare. That could have
:10:23. > :10:25.an impact on what you're saying, it could also undermine her reputation
:10:26. > :10:30.for being compassionate if she is seen to be abandoning the people
:10:31. > :10:33.that need help most. There is always a political case for doing something
:10:34. > :10:37.for Middle Britain, where most people are. They call at Middle
:10:38. > :10:44.America over there and so on. But these are not the in work but in
:10:45. > :10:48.poverty. Being a worker's party, one that dines out on its support for
:10:49. > :10:53.work, if it is to do anything, it has to do something about these
:10:54. > :10:59.people? The key issue is what the economic policies are in this new
:11:00. > :11:02.government. Nobody on the programme this morning has talked about the
:11:03. > :11:11.deficit, which George Osborne framed everything around, to the point
:11:12. > :11:14.where, as they know better than anyone, he struggles to get welfare
:11:15. > :11:20.reforms affected because of our budget cuts that hit those on low
:11:21. > :11:24.income in work. Until we know the degree to which the framing of that
:11:25. > :11:28.deficit strategy has changed, we will not really know the space they
:11:29. > :11:32.will have to make sure that does not happen over the next few years and
:11:33. > :11:37.the opposite happens. That applies to all of these issues, actually.
:11:38. > :11:44.The economy will provide the space, or not, to do these things. The
:11:45. > :11:48.Treasury is telling the Chancellor that the slowdown in the economy,
:11:49. > :11:52.not as slow as they thought, but still a slowdown, that, in itself,
:11:53. > :11:57.will widen the deficit. Therefore, he is not going to have a tonne of
:11:58. > :12:01.money to throw around on top of that, which would widen the deficit
:12:02. > :12:06.even further. There is room for manoeuvre which may be quite slight?
:12:07. > :12:11.Not quite true. He has abandoned George Osborne's fiscal targets.
:12:12. > :12:14.Having already taken this into account by what they think is the
:12:15. > :12:17.slowing of the economy. They have been wrong in the past, but that is
:12:18. > :12:22.why they have done that. There is not a turn of money around to spend
:12:23. > :12:27.billions on infrastructure, unless, of course, like Mr Corbyn, you want
:12:28. > :12:32.to borrow it. When you say you are not going to eradicate the deficit
:12:33. > :12:36.by 2020, that is what you mean. If he needs to cushion the Brexit
:12:37. > :12:40.impact, if there is one, I don't think we could pay off the deficit
:12:41. > :12:46.by 2020. Then you'll have all of this money to do what you want with.
:12:47. > :12:50.Final thought? There is also the attitude about business and the
:12:51. > :12:54.attitude to the super rich and well. I think Theresa May will concentrate
:12:55. > :12:57.on that more than David Cameron, alleviating concerns. The Autumn
:12:58. > :13:02.Statement from the Chancellor will be as big as any of the statements
:13:03. > :13:04.we hear this week. I am glad to hear it, it will be coming up live on a
:13:05. > :13:07.Daily Politics special. at the Conservative Party
:13:08. > :13:10.conference here in Birmingham. Fear not, I'll be back tomorrow
:13:11. > :13:13.at 11am for a two-hour special as Chancellor Philip Hammond
:13:14. > :13:19.takes to the stage. We are back on Tuesday and Wednesday
:13:20. > :13:23.bringing Theresa May's speech on Wednesday just before lunch. We will
:13:24. > :13:26.be back next Sunday as well. In the meantime, remember -
:13:27. > :13:29.if it's Sunday, it's