:00:41. > :00:51.Good morning. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Sorting out the deficit
:00:51. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:30.And in Northern Ireland: Money is too tight to mention. The Finance
:01:30. > :01:40.Minister on the State of Stormont's coffers. And politicians agree to
:01:40. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :37:09.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2129 seconds
:37:09. > :37:12.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland. More
:37:12. > :37:16.cuts to the welfare budget are expected to be announced by the
:37:16. > :37:19.Chancellor, George Osborne, in his Autumn Statement on Wednesday. With
:37:20. > :37:22.the Executive here divided over the current round of cuts, a row over
:37:22. > :37:25.the cost of delaying public service pensions, and the price of
:37:25. > :37:28.devolving corporation tax still to be resolved. The Finance Minister,
:37:28. > :37:31.Sammy Wilson, is with us to talk about tough financial times. And
:37:31. > :37:33.the Christmas decorations might be up at Belfast City Hall, but a
:37:34. > :37:43.disagreement about flying the Union flag means there's not much festive
:37:43. > :37:49.cheer in the chamber. This is a unique and historic opportunity for
:37:49. > :37:53.the Unionists to prove that what they are talking about, they mean.
:37:53. > :37:55.To discuss all of that, and to give us their views on the fall-out from
:37:55. > :37:58.the Leveson Inquiry, I'm joined by the Sunday World's Northern Editor,
:37:58. > :38:08.Jim McDowell, and by Sinn Fein councillor and media entrepreneur,
:38:08. > :38:13.
:38:13. > :38:19.Mairtin O Muilleoir. First to be age old issue of flax. Inside the
:38:19. > :38:26.building of the continental market the mood is Bar humbug as there is
:38:26. > :38:32.a vote tomorrow to remove the Union flag over at city hall. The
:38:32. > :38:37.Alliance Party holds the power of balance in the chamber but there is
:38:37. > :38:43.still huge disagreement over the issue. I would be proposing that
:38:43. > :38:48.the Union flag flies with dignity and respect over City Hall on the
:38:48. > :38:54.designated days. There is a lot of talk about this being a shared
:38:54. > :38:59.society, with shared spaces, that this is a city hall for all. This
:38:59. > :39:05.is a unique and historic opportunity for the Unionists to
:39:06. > :39:13.prove that what they are talking about, they mean. To to maintain
:39:13. > :39:19.the flag 365 days per year is recognition that Belfast is part of
:39:19. > :39:27.the United Kingdom. It is the most common practice in Northern Ireland.
:39:27. > :39:36.It is the most common practice throughout GP. The air has been a
:39:36. > :39:40.long standing policy of no flags for us. There is no flag that
:39:40. > :39:49.represents everyone in this city. In an ideal world we would have no
:39:49. > :39:56.flag flying over this or any public building. Now we will discuss this
:39:56. > :40:05.issue. Presumably, a Sinn Fein will have to support the flying of the
:40:05. > :40:08.Union flag on designated days, isn't that the only option?
:40:08. > :40:18.Relationships in City Hall are probably the best they have ever
:40:18. > :40:22.
:40:22. > :40:28.been. By was the issue raised? There was a two you process in
:40:28. > :40:34.looking at the flying of flanks. The agreement at the moment is that
:40:34. > :40:41.the flags should come down but also we need to remove the flag from
:40:41. > :40:51.City Hall and have a civic flag. A remove the flag entirely from
:40:51. > :40:51.
:40:51. > :40:57.Belfast City? Exactly. It is clear that Unionists would rather have
:40:57. > :41:07.the Union flag. That is the we it is in the rest of Northern Ireland
:41:07. > :41:12.and the UK. It is 2012 and it is a changing city. We are seeing change
:41:12. > :41:20.in our relationship and certainly flying the flag 365 days per year
:41:20. > :41:30.is not tenable. Surely not find it at all flies in D face of your
:41:30. > :41:31.
:41:31. > :41:37.commitment to a shared society? -- flies in the face. You cannot have
:41:37. > :41:43.that flag 365 days per year. If they want to talk about a
:41:43. > :41:52.compromise we are prepared... you are prepared to compromise?
:41:52. > :42:02.That is right. A Unionists see the spectre in front of them the two
:42:02. > :42:09.
:42:09. > :42:15.flats, the trickle are as well. Try colour flag. That is what
:42:15. > :42:25.Unionists are worried about. Republicans think that is perfectly
:42:25. > :42:27.
:42:27. > :42:32.reasonable. Unionists do not look to London, they look who Dublin.
:42:32. > :42:38.That is amateur's conversation that we have to have. They still see
:42:38. > :42:45.Belfast as the main melting point of dealing with these Union and
:42:45. > :42:51.Great Britain. It is this spectre. I am not advocating for seeing they
:42:51. > :42:57.are correct. I am seeing that we need to move on and whether it is a
:42:58. > :43:04.civic flag which no one has any problem with, some see the dry
:43:04. > :43:09.colour flag over City Hall as a betrayal of their position. Both
:43:09. > :43:16.camps want everything their own way and they are not prepared to give
:43:16. > :43:23.anything to the other side at the moment. This is probably be
:43:23. > :43:29.calloused I ever remember politics in the city Hall. It used to be a
:43:29. > :43:37.crucible of conflict. There were physical fights in the city Hall.
:43:37. > :43:45.Alarms were set off in the chambers. This is not the biggest of issues.
:43:45. > :43:55.Flags do not kill people. What they represent me kill people. But some
:43:55. > :43:57.
:43:57. > :44:05.colours on a flagpole. It is unfair for the Unionists to see that. --
:44:05. > :44:12.say that. I think it is vital that we do not treat the minority that
:44:12. > :44:19.way. What you said was that you would like to see no Union flag
:44:19. > :44:24.ever over City Hall. My preference is for a civic flag, my second
:44:24. > :44:33.preference is for both flags. emotion the other day was to remove
:44:33. > :44:43.the flag 365 days per year. Civic flag or be two flags is what
:44:43. > :44:45.
:44:45. > :44:51.we would prefer. What will happen tomorrow night? The Alliance
:44:51. > :44:57.Party's amendment will be voted on first of all. If you bought for
:44:57. > :45:02.that and support that, that is what will happen. If you bought that
:45:02. > :45:10.down the other motion to fly it not at all will be lost so you will end
:45:10. > :45:19.up with its 365 days per year. You get me an alternative that makes
:45:19. > :45:26.sense. The reality is that the majority in the committee have
:45:26. > :45:33.voted. At this stage we know the status quo will be different from
:45:33. > :45:39.that ember 4th. What is your understanding? Was my brief
:45:39. > :45:46.exposition of what will happen fairly accurate? I think that is
:45:46. > :45:54.what it looks like. The other thing is on protocol. It will have to go
:45:54. > :45:57.back to committee enemy. For her both flanks, if that was the
:45:57. > :46:06.compromise as Sinn Fein said, they would have to come back to the
:46:06. > :46:16.committee. What I would say is, if we want to build the city together
:46:16. > :46:23.and this year the majority saw as fund the Jubilee celebrations. We
:46:23. > :46:32.also realise it is a changing city. I have never seen a minority
:46:32. > :46:39.treated this well as the Unionists. They have a flag on the dome of
:46:39. > :46:49.City Hall 365 days per year. essay is what rubs the union nerves
:46:49. > :46:49.
:46:49. > :46:54.raw. This thing is being thrown at them like a battle cry. We have got
:46:54. > :47:00.the Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton, coming here. We have come
:47:00. > :47:07.on leaps and bounds but what message does it send to her and, by
:47:07. > :47:15.extension, to the wider world, that we are, yet again, fighting about a
:47:15. > :47:24.flag in Belfast? It is not just about be patriotism. It looks again,
:47:24. > :47:28.it is the old saw of sectarianism. If we get a more down or two mobs
:47:28. > :47:35.down at city hall, one for the flag going up and one for the flat
:47:35. > :47:42.coming down... We spend a lot of time in America are trying to court
:47:42. > :47:49.Americans to get investment into Ireland winning a different hat.
:47:49. > :47:53.think it will be about the unity among other parties in Northern
:47:53. > :47:58.Ireland. That will be the message. Do you think Hillary Clinton does
:47:58. > :48:06.not understand why refight about flags and allegiances? Of course
:48:06. > :48:15.she does. There is a peace agreement here and there has to be
:48:15. > :48:25.compromised. Unionists will have to compromise. We have to embrace what
:48:25. > :48:41.
:48:41. > :48:51.is happening here. When the Union flag flying over City Hall on 17
:48:51. > :48:53.
:48:53. > :49:03.days per year be better than 365 days? We have our own opinions.
:49:03. > :49:03.
:49:03. > :49:09.a look at the week in 60 seconds. An escape from this present and the
:49:09. > :49:17.justice minister signals and leaves a think over its closure. --
:49:17. > :49:24.signals at rethink. And plans to cut legal aid on civil cases.
:49:24. > :49:27.public eye are the ones who will suffer. And accusations of the
:49:27. > :49:34.press breaking their habit of interfering in the lives of
:49:34. > :49:42.innocent people. Changes to the industry cannot be realised without
:49:42. > :49:49.legislation. And the Deputy First Minister notices that MLAs ski away
:49:49. > :49:56.from question-time. I think it is a disgrace that so many were not
:49:56. > :50:01.present to answer their questions. I do not know what he is pointing
:50:01. > :50:07.to these die for. If he is looking for divine intervention I am happy
:50:07. > :50:14.to pray with them. Gareth Gordon with that brief look at the past
:50:14. > :50:20.week. Now, let us talk about the Leveson Inquiry. Do you think he
:50:20. > :50:25.probably got it right? He had a very difficult path to walk, a lot
:50:25. > :50:32.of compromises to make and the opinions to take on. Did he come up
:50:32. > :50:38.with a magical solution to a very difficult problem? No, he did not.
:50:38. > :50:43.I even heard from a solicitor who takes libel cases saying he had
:50:43. > :50:50.hoped Lord Leveson would drag the inquiry on for another year because
:50:50. > :50:56.of the atmosphere that the inquiry has created, papers we be willing
:50:56. > :51:03.to bend more in civil cases. I think it is a waste of time and
:51:03. > :51:13.money. As a newspaperman and newspaper editor I do not see
:51:13. > :51:14.
:51:14. > :51:22.regulations on the ink that Prince the press being a good thing.
:51:22. > :51:28.would be an entirely independent organisation. We are talking about
:51:28. > :51:35.a situation where something like Ofcom would have statutory
:51:35. > :51:41.regulation of the press along with an independent body. It has to be
:51:41. > :51:48.independent and there should be no smoking gun held to anyone's head
:51:48. > :51:54.saying we will approach a Ofcom if this does not work. And you run a
:51:54. > :52:02.newspaper. Winning your media hat, are you concerned about the
:52:02. > :52:09.implications and what they might mean? I disagree fundamentally with
:52:09. > :52:17.him as a newspaper man among other things! I do not think newspapers
:52:17. > :52:22.have to be dejected and in this be a. I think the press had a moral
:52:23. > :52:28.vacuum. There was no moral compass within the British press and I
:52:28. > :52:35.think they have brought this upon themselves just as bankers brought
:52:35. > :52:43.this upon themselves. I have no fear, have I know I'll run a small
:52:43. > :52:50.local newspaper, but no fear of statutory regulation. We have
:52:50. > :52:55.seemed serious issues from some Irish tabloids recently. It is a
:52:55. > :53:05.small cabal of powerful people that run the press. They have their
:53:05. > :53:06.
:53:06. > :53:10.golfing friends. It is the same in Ireland. That lack of integrity and
:53:10. > :53:20.respect and ethics within the press is something that affects both
:53:20. > :53:21.
:53:21. > :53:25.islands. Based on the Levenson results. We all want to retain the
:53:25. > :53:34.freedom of the press but at the same time I do not see anything to
:53:34. > :53:44.fear from the best. You and the people you see, it is the closest
:53:44. > :53:44.
:53:44. > :53:51.you get to political control. party is close to political control.
:53:51. > :53:57.How is it political control? It is the BBC director who would be
:53:57. > :54:07.answerable. He is answerable to the Trust and Ofcom but not the Prime
:54:07. > :54:09.
:54:09. > :54:14.Minister. You would be hard pressed to say the BBC is not independent
:54:14. > :54:20.of the public. If you are talking about political control or anything
:54:20. > :54:25.and you belong to a party that controls its own newspaper, what
:54:25. > :54:31.went into that was propaganda on behalf of Sinn Fein. What Sinn Fein
:54:31. > :54:39.do now, there ministers are the most obtuse and difficult to get to
:54:39. > :54:45.for any journalist. A hang on! I am talking about the printed
:54:45. > :54:51.press asking for a straight answers. Everything is spin-doctored and
:54:51. > :54:57.controlled. I asked for a comment the other day about an attack on
:54:58. > :55:02.the black mountain on the day of the Queen's visit. I asked for a
:55:02. > :55:08.comment from the MLA and I had to go through the press of us for a
:55:08. > :55:14.statement. I could not even phoned the MLA, as he would not give me a
:55:14. > :55:19.quote or comment. I think it is astonishing and contradictory that
:55:19. > :55:28.you would say Sinn Fein wants State regulation of the press when they
:55:28. > :55:35.are already notorious for their control of the press. We have to
:55:35. > :55:41.help the Sunday World or Belfast Telegraph or whomever. Speaking as
:55:41. > :55:46.somebody involved in newspapers and as a politician I think the press
:55:46. > :55:52.are or reading increased regulation. No one in newspapers has anything
:55:52. > :55:58.to fear from that except the small cabal who want to contact their
:55:58. > :56:04.friends rather than going through official channels. The Strait
:56:04. > :56:14.jackets are already on. I am going to wind you up, the Sinn Fein have
:56:14. > :56:18.at fantastic press officer! have got State sponsored censorship
:56:18. > :56:23.through the privacy laws and you have got the criminal law. What is
:56:23. > :56:29.being talked about, the moral compass and all the rest, it is a
:56:29. > :56:35.criminal offence that should have been dealt with by the police. More
:56:35. > :56:45.cuts to welfare, still law announcement on corporation tax.
:56:45. > :56:46.
:56:46. > :56:50.And no further guaranteed that the air passenger duty cuts will happen.
:56:50. > :56:53.Is it all doom and gloom on the economic front, or might the
:56:53. > :56:56.Chancellor have a splash of good news in the middle of the week?
:56:56. > :57:06.Let's hear from the keeper of the purse locally, Finance Minister,
:57:06. > :57:07.
:57:07. > :57:13.Sammy Wilson. I thought you started an hour later than you did. It is
:57:13. > :57:17.very nice to see you, better late than never. Let's talk about Air
:57:17. > :57:20.Passenger Duty first. On Friday the NI Affairs Committee floated the
:57:20. > :57:22.idea of reducing or abolishing short-haul APD to make this place a
:57:22. > :57:30.more attractive destination for people to visit and do business
:57:30. > :57:35.with. But you're not convinced, Why? We had to get the legislation
:57:35. > :57:39.hurried through quickly otherwise you would have lost many flights
:57:39. > :57:45.that the dead have. It is up now to the Executive to work out whether
:57:45. > :57:50.or not they wish to have further devolution of the air passenger
:57:50. > :57:56.duty. The important question is whether or not the �9 million it
:57:56. > :58:00.would cost to produce the air passenger duty, whether that �90
:58:00. > :58:06.million would be better spent on other things rather than on a
:58:06. > :58:10.reduction on duty which might not be all that well targeted. We would
:58:10. > :58:17.probably see some people benefited who may be engaging in activities
:58:17. > :58:24.that are not all that beneficial. We are pushing it in a general
:58:24. > :58:30.sense as far as the UK as a whole is concerned. The aviation industry
:58:30. > :58:34.across the UK is at a disadvantage. As far as Northern Ireland is
:58:34. > :58:38.concerned, I would like to know whether the benefits outweigh the
:58:38. > :58:45.cost and, indeed whether there are other things we could spend �9
:58:45. > :58:49.million on that would have a greater benefit. What about the
:58:49. > :58:53.suggestion of the view that we would hear something from the
:58:53. > :58:59.Chancellor during his Autumn Statement on the reduction of
:58:59. > :59:07.corporation tax in Northern Ireland, is that going to happen? I do not
:59:07. > :59:10.think so. We have taken it as far as we can. The report that has gone
:59:10. > :59:15.to the Prime Minister and Chancellor, it is now a political
:59:15. > :59:20.decision. I think it is getting mixed up with the Scottish
:59:20. > :59:25.referendum. We are not expecting any announcement in the Autumn
:59:25. > :59:31.Statement. We have been pressing the Government to give us some
:59:32. > :59:37.certainty. We do not need it devolved immediately. There is a
:59:37. > :59:44.long lead-in period when you tried to sell Northern Ireland on the
:59:44. > :59:49.issue of low taxation. And you want it to happen? I have always
:59:49. > :59:54.expressed the view that it cannot be at any price. Our negotiations