:01:25. > :01:29.$:/STARTFEED. And on Sunday politics in Northern Ireland, the
:01:29. > :01:39.planning Minister defends his controversial Sprucefield ruling
:01:39. > :01:39.
:01:39. > :42:04.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2425 seconds
:42:04. > :42:08.against the DUP's Simon Hamilton. Good morning. Welcome it to Sunday
:42:08. > :42:12.Politics in Northern Ireland. Hundreds of jobs gone as Alex
:42:12. > :42:19.Attwood insists there will be no John Lewis store at Sprucefield.
:42:19. > :42:23.Will the matter be taken out of his hands? Also as MLAs try to clamp
:42:23. > :42:29.down on the abuse on social networks sites, will they find the
:42:29. > :42:38.internet uncontrollable. With me to talk about that is Joanne Stuart
:42:38. > :42:45.and the Belfast Telegraph's Liam Clarke. As the economic decline
:42:45. > :42:50.continues, Northern Ireland has waved goodbye to 150 new jobs and a
:42:50. > :42:53.�150 million investment. John Lewis has withdrawn spans to build a
:42:53. > :42:57.store in sprays they have after the Environment Minister insisted it
:42:57. > :43:02.was Belfast or nowhere for the scheme. This has angered his
:43:02. > :43:09.colleagues, how has the news gone down with the citizens of Lisburn?
:43:09. > :43:15.Are they relieved or cheated? a disgrace. I think in the economic
:43:15. > :43:19.climate, especially in the building industry, and it needed a boost.
:43:19. > :43:25.is because of Belfast do not want us to have it. I think it would be
:43:25. > :43:29.terrible if they go to Dublin and do not stay at here. I think John
:43:29. > :43:35.Lewis has shown remarkable endurance and patience about this.
:43:35. > :43:38.It has been nine years. To come to Lisburn? If they are thinking about
:43:38. > :43:44.taking the trade out of the city centre, they should have stayed
:43:44. > :43:49.anyway. In it is out of my price range, but I have a neighbour who
:43:49. > :43:52.would go to hell and back for John Lewis. The occurrence state of the
:43:52. > :43:57.economy, is it worth while are putting up a new store? Will they
:43:57. > :44:04.get much business? There are probably shops that are struggling
:44:04. > :44:09.as it is. Does Lisburn need an expensive store? They have been
:44:09. > :44:17.talking about it for ages, it is like asking a girl out, if she does
:44:17. > :44:27.not make her mind up. Alex Attwood joins me and the D B MLA Simon
:44:27. > :44:31.Hamilton. How is red-carding a development on this scale good news
:44:31. > :44:36.for Northern Ireland PLC? Basque people in Lisburn, Newtownards,
:44:36. > :44:43.Craigavon, were it something of this character were to happen at
:44:43. > :44:47.Sprucefield, 20 stores, twice the size of Forest side, the evidence
:44:47. > :44:53.is overwhelmingly that it would have serious detrimental impact,
:44:53. > :44:56.measured up to 30% on all the town centres and city centres of Greater
:44:56. > :45:02.Belfast and beyond. That means consequences in terms of thousands
:45:02. > :45:08.of job losses potentially and business closures. That is why,
:45:08. > :45:13.when we have a Belfast first policy, but we have built up and the City,
:45:13. > :45:19.invested in Titanic, there may even be a City University coming, why
:45:19. > :45:23.would we turn on our head the established proper policy for
:45:23. > :45:29.retail development? In this case, John Lewis has made it clear it
:45:29. > :45:35.wants to come up to Lisburn or Dublin. The Belfast first policy is
:45:35. > :45:42.a red herring. You have turned this into Belfast only! You are thumbing
:45:42. > :45:46.your nose at this Investment! policy I am adopting is the a
:45:46. > :45:51.policy adopted by the Executive. It says that in order to drive the
:45:51. > :45:57.economy of Northern Ireland, you need to have a vibrant and bright
:45:57. > :46:05.Belfast. That is why all that investment across Heritage, tourism,
:46:05. > :46:09.Bart's, the Titanic has come here. A vital and vibrant Belfast as part
:46:09. > :46:15.of a strong town and city centre retail policy, in the greater
:46:15. > :46:21.Belfast area and beyond, that is the best model. The notion of that
:46:21. > :46:26.he's send the message from Peter Robinson by the proposal going
:46:26. > :46:35.ahead, that these towns and cities have to sink and swim on their own,
:46:35. > :46:41.it is not credible. This is an Executive policy, we might not like
:46:41. > :46:45.it, we have to stick to it and get on with it! Sprucefield was
:46:46. > :46:49.designated within the regional development strategy as the only
:46:49. > :46:53.regional out of town shopping centre Humbert in Northern Ireland
:46:54. > :47:00.and Alex Attwood talked about a recession, we cannot afford to lose
:47:00. > :47:06.this investment at any time. These are not just any jobs, these are
:47:06. > :47:12.some of the best jobs in retail in Britain. John Lewis employees rank
:47:12. > :47:19.the company as one of the best he in the UK. Employees become
:47:19. > :47:25.shareholders in the company. What if it means displacement of jobs
:47:25. > :47:30.and other town and city centres are losing out? This will lead to
:47:30. > :47:35.disinvestment. This is not a case of Lisburn losing out and Belfast
:47:35. > :47:38.benefiting. This is a case of the - - Northern Ireland losing out. John
:47:38. > :47:44.Lewis will re-examine and move forward on plans to go to Dublin
:47:44. > :47:46.and that is not good for Northern Ireland. It is taking much needed
:47:46. > :47:51.investment away from Northern Ireland and taking it to Dublin.
:47:51. > :47:56.That is not good for Belfast, Lisburn are anywhere in Northern
:47:56. > :48:01.Ireland. That is not the evidence. The evidence that I gave to the
:48:01. > :48:08.planning inquiry is that the impact upon it Belfast would be 15%, the
:48:08. > :48:13.impact upon a Lisburn would be 25% of retail, in Craigavon a 35% and
:48:13. > :48:17.so on for Newtownards, Newry and other parts of the North. This will
:48:17. > :48:21.have an impact. The issue is not John Lewis, it is a scale of
:48:21. > :48:28.development at Sprucefield of the 20 shops twice the size of Forest
:48:28. > :48:38.side. That would have a big impact. If John Lewis it go to Dublin.
:48:38. > :48:38.
:48:38. > :48:42.might go there as well. It might be Dublin and somewhere in the north.
:48:42. > :48:46.If they go to Dublin first, they will establish the distribution
:48:46. > :48:53.centre there and that will take a huge percentage of jobs there that
:48:53. > :48:57.we cannot get back. If it goes to Dublin, then four the period of
:48:57. > :49:07.time it that it is there, which is not likely to happen now, they have
:49:07. > :49:11.said they are not going to Belfast. If people take the John Lewis trade
:49:11. > :49:21.to Dublin, them way the -- when they are there, they will purchase
:49:21. > :49:21.
:49:21. > :49:25.other goods and services. That is why we will lose out. This is a
:49:25. > :49:30.Belfast decision taken by a Belfast Minister in the interests of your
:49:30. > :49:40.home city. Would you and you be different if you had MLAs in Lagan
:49:40. > :49:45.
:49:45. > :49:50.Valley? My responsibility... Your party is pretty it's the --
:49:50. > :49:56.interested in another development. The DUP has questions to answer.
:49:56. > :50:01.They have been on the back foot about their political contact --
:50:01. > :50:06.conduct and they want to turn the story around. My job is not to make
:50:06. > :50:15.plans based upon the next month to the next year. My job is to give
:50:15. > :50:21.advice and the advice has to be what is in the national interest.
:50:21. > :50:25.Let us hear what the DUP plans to do about this. The First Minister
:50:26. > :50:29.has made it clear he is not happy. He says it is bad news for Northern
:50:29. > :50:35.Ireland. He says ministers should encourage investment. He is not
:50:36. > :50:40.holding back on what he says. What does he do? He goes back to the
:50:40. > :50:46.Executive and tries to call in at the decision, over remit? This has
:50:46. > :50:53.been taken out of his hands. He he is the Minister! Changes to the
:50:53. > :50:56.Northern Ireland Act have been amended to allow for the First
:50:56. > :51:01.Minister and the Deputy First Minister to act jointly to bring
:51:02. > :51:07.controversial decisions into the Executive. We are going to have all
:51:07. > :51:13.sorts of issues brought back that have been made by your ministers as
:51:13. > :51:21.well. That is the point of having shared government. We cannot have
:51:21. > :51:26.one Minister moving ahead on one decision. This is an issue of such
:51:26. > :51:30.significance to the economy, it is not just about the investment and
:51:30. > :51:33.jobs, it is about the impression it gives potential investors, if you
:51:33. > :51:39.want to come here and make that investment, you are told by
:51:39. > :51:45.government Minister that you are not welcome. Members of the
:51:45. > :51:50.Executive may gang up on you! deal with this impression that I
:51:50. > :51:54.said this to developers? I know that the system that I inherited
:51:54. > :51:58.from the DUP and I know the character of it today were we are
:51:58. > :52:04.turning around all the significant applications, were we had in six
:52:04. > :52:07.months alone 250 renewable applications sent out. The
:52:07. > :52:16.character of planning today compared to 18 months ago has sent
:52:16. > :52:20.out a strong message to investors that we will get the decisions made.
:52:20. > :52:26.The Michelle O'Neill made a decision and I backed her up at the
:52:26. > :52:33.Executive and in writing around the proposed move to Ballykelly. It was
:52:33. > :52:40.taken because of ministerial authority. The win he turned down
:52:40. > :52:45.an investment and all those jobs, that sends a message to investors
:52:45. > :52:50.and it is not a good message. not a pro economy message. Let us
:52:50. > :52:55.get a business response. Let us bring in it Joe and Stuart and Liam
:52:56. > :52:59.Clarke from the Belfast Telegraph. What is your position on this. Do
:52:59. > :53:05.you come down on one side as to whether or not at the development
:53:05. > :53:08.should or should not happen? shows the difficulties we have with
:53:08. > :53:14.the planning system. The fact it has taken and nine E years and we
:53:14. > :53:17.have had a different interpretation of planning policy. The economic
:53:17. > :53:21.investment is really important to Northern Ireland. We have had a
:53:21. > :53:25.difficult few months were we have been getting the wrong message
:53:25. > :53:31.going out across the world and we want to get these high-quality
:53:31. > :53:35.businesses coming into Northern Ireland. You also have people who
:53:35. > :53:40.say we need to deal with the issue of out of town shopping centres.
:53:41. > :53:45.They say it will have a detrimental effect on other places. If you look
:53:45. > :53:49.at this decision, 30 years down the line, it is the right decision, but
:53:49. > :53:55.in the next six months, it looks like the wrong decision. We need to
:53:56. > :54:00.look at how we maximise the investment. Sprucefield is existing
:54:00. > :54:05.there. We will not have another harbour creating further problems.
:54:05. > :54:09.We will look at how we invigorate the city centres. People are
:54:09. > :54:13.looking for different things. We cannot remove the people's choice.
:54:13. > :54:18.We have to give them different reasons to go into the city centre.
:54:18. > :54:25.This is about looking at how we look at culture and how that can
:54:25. > :54:32.help to reinvigorate. I have worked with theatre companies about how
:54:33. > :54:38.would you reinvigorate empty retail units. That is on one scale, it is
:54:38. > :54:44.not on the scale of 1,500 jobs and millions of pounds worth of
:54:44. > :54:47.investment. We have to look at it creatively about how we are
:54:47. > :54:53.reinvigorating its city centres. Stopping one development will not
:54:53. > :54:59.be to do this. It seems to send a bad image for Northern Ireland if
:54:59. > :55:04.we lose it John Lewis. The danger for Alex Attwood, who has speeded
:55:04. > :55:10.up planning procedures, he has a danger of going it down in history
:55:10. > :55:16.as a man who lost this very significant landmark Investment. It
:55:16. > :55:21.will open up interesting issues in the Executive. The DUP seem to have
:55:21. > :55:30.done their homework. Or ruling and Minister, that impinges on a system
:55:30. > :55:34.which is dear to Sinn Fein. They may have the right to call it in,
:55:34. > :55:41.but there is a question if the Sinn Fein would support it. It could
:55:41. > :55:46.open up a can of worms? Be it opens up a precedent. If Sinn Fein agreed
:55:47. > :55:56.to it and it seems to me that the Executive can take the decision and
:55:57. > :55:58.
:55:58. > :56:04.the question will be what lino will see Sinn Fein it take. It is quite
:56:04. > :56:11.a political decision. It has quite a way to run. Let me ask you, if
:56:11. > :56:14.this decision is called in and comes back to the Executive and if
:56:14. > :56:19.the First Minister and Deputy First Minister say they are not happy,
:56:20. > :56:27.would you feel the need to resign? I find buys up under pressure all
:56:27. > :56:30.the time, it will not turn me away from what it Joanna the just said.
:56:30. > :56:36.Whether it is the towns of Greater Belfast or beyond or Belfast city
:56:36. > :56:41.centre, we have to protect in in- town retail. The consequences of
:56:41. > :56:46.the closure of further businesses, in a situation where in Belfast we
:56:46. > :56:53.have 25% of vacancies on Ready, the consequences in my view, there is
:56:53. > :56:57.an argument, it is difficult, this is the time and place where we say
:56:57. > :57:03.that we stand by our policy, stand by our retailers and we want to
:57:03. > :57:10.bring other people, but there are times when a line has to be drawn.
:57:10. > :57:14.How would the DUP feel if you get your way and it does not happen in
:57:14. > :57:22.Belfast and it goes ahead as breeze filled but then it town centres and
:57:22. > :57:27.city centres like Lisburn actually suffer and you lose a jobs?
:57:27. > :57:31.threat to town and city centres is not coming from John Lewis, it is
:57:31. > :57:35.coming from online retail. That is threatening our city and town
:57:35. > :57:40.centres. The point about reinvigorating the centres is not
:57:40. > :57:44.helped by turning away potential investors, it is about sprucing
:57:44. > :57:54.them up and doing other things that attract people in, not just retail.
:57:54. > :57:55.
:57:55. > :57:58.We need to leave it there. In a moment, the challenge of policing
:57:58. > :58:08.social networking websites. First a look back at the political week
:58:08. > :58:10.
:58:10. > :58:18.with Gareth Gordon. The murder of a Garda officer prompted Gerry Adams
:58:18. > :58:24.to issue an apology to victims of the IRA in the Republic. By want to
:58:24. > :58:28.apologise to the family and to the other families of other members of
:58:28. > :58:33.the state forces. Loyalist like protesters said they would change
:58:33. > :58:38.tactics, they will hold white line of pickets and target council
:58:38. > :58:42.meetings. The National crime agency will not operate here following
:58:42. > :58:48.objections from Sinn Fein and the SDLP and the Justice Minister says
:58:48. > :58:57.it is a mistake. It is a get out of jail card for the Crumlin Road
:58:57. > :59:01.courthouse by St MLAs. As Ballymena honours Liam Neeson, a Holywood
:59:01. > :59:10.star revealed the secret of his success. I have got a work ethic
:59:10. > :59:13.that I have got from Ballymena. Gareth Gordon reporting. Is the
:59:13. > :59:17.internet the crucible of the freedom of expression or a haven
:59:18. > :59:22.for sex offenders, he to groups and social misfits? This week there
:59:22. > :59:31.will be two motions calling for increased control about what goes
:59:31. > :59:35.on on the internet especially social media websites. The issue of
:59:35. > :59:40.the flag protests has brought the issue to the fore. Your party is
:59:40. > :59:48.proposing a one of the motions, the other is a cross-party motion. What
:59:48. > :59:53.is the issue? What are your concerns? What of the major issues
:59:53. > :59:59.is that sectarianism has grown new legs through social media.
:59:59. > :00:04.Certainly anyone who uses Facebook or Twitter will see some extreme
:00:04. > :00:10.examples of sectarianism and a lot of it seems to go ahead without any
:00:10. > :00:16.punishment or been taken aside. It is hard to police. That is the
:00:16. > :00:20.fundamental point. It is impossible. In his difficult. In terms of local
:00:20. > :00:24.agencies, they do not know how to do with it. A lot of the complaints
:00:24. > :00:30.are dealt with under the Communications Act, but what is of
:00:30. > :00:35.interest is that in England, Keir Starmer her and the CPS have issued
:00:35. > :00:39.guidance and I think we need, not the same guidelines, but guidelines
:00:39. > :00:43.that would be sufficient in dealing with the problems that we have,
:00:43. > :00:53.particularly with regard to sectarianism. Does the legislation
:00:53. > :00:54.
:00:54. > :00:59.not already exist? It is about the effective use of it. That is the
:00:59. > :01:04.distinction between the legislation and guidance. I think that the
:01:04. > :01:08.Public Prosecutions Service needed to set an example and set out clear
:01:08. > :01:13.points that police and others should abide by. I think that this
:01:13. > :01:17.it needs to be done urgently but we also need to guard against the
:01:17. > :01:21.situation where police will be bald did down by a lot of work with
:01:21. > :01:26.regards to the internet. We need to distinguish between the more
:01:26. > :01:36.serious and the less serious issues. So on people believe that the lot
:01:36. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :01:47.macro has been heavy-handed already. We need to distinguish between what
:01:47. > :01:53.is most serious and what is not. In terms of sectarianism, a lot of
:01:53. > :01:57.this behaviour on the internet... Can you not just block or on follow
:01:57. > :02:02.these people? If you took everything seriously, you would not
:02:02. > :02:07.get out of bed in the morning. that is the case, the same should
:02:07. > :02:13.apply to town centres are places of work, but we cannot allow this
:02:13. > :02:23.precedent to be set on the internet. It is a public place. The this is a
:02:23. > :02:23.
:02:23. > :02:29.global issue. This is a problem for politicians. Our MLAs will not sort
:02:29. > :02:33.this out, this is a huge global issue. We needed to ensure the
:02:33. > :02:39.legislation and guidance and regulations are in place to ensure
:02:39. > :02:43.that there are examples -- examples set. Not only in terms of
:02:43. > :02:47.sectarianism, there have been examples work young people have
:02:47. > :02:53.taken their own lives as a result of cyber bullying. That is a good
:02:53. > :02:58.reason why we should be doing some urgent work on this. Thank you. Let
:02:58. > :03:05.us here are your thoughts. Do you think we needed to step up and try
:03:05. > :03:11.to police the internet? Does it need to be more heavy hand at?
:03:11. > :03:17.There has to be more prosecutions, more visibility of people being
:03:17. > :03:22.taken it to account about this. What about more education? Media
:03:23. > :03:26.literacy is a big thing. People know how to use the technology, but
:03:26. > :03:32.do not understand the consequences. You need to know how to behave
:03:32. > :03:42.online. There is a fundamental free speech issue at the heart of this
:03:42. > :03:42.
:03:42. > :03:48.as well. Yes. It is being policed to affair extent. Two loyalist
:03:48. > :03:54.sides were taken down recently. That is continuing. I remember
:03:54. > :04:01.there was a man who was barred from social media for harassing people
:04:01. > :04:07.who had put websites up in tribute to dead children and he got a
:04:07. > :04:09.custodial sentence. There is legislation there. There is
:04:09. > :04:14.something in the education thing and perhaps there should be
:04:14. > :04:18.warnings on Facebook that you are subject to the law of defamation.
:04:18. > :04:25.That would make people fully aware that this is not something you can
:04:25. > :04:33.do, like talking to your friends in that their car but. In it is about
:04:33. > :04:38.educating friends. It is internet safety day on Tuesday. He does
:04:39. > :04:44.about the education of parents. There is a positive side. If you
:04:44. > :04:50.live in Japan, where social media was used and helped in that