03/07/2016

:00:37. > :00:43.Five Tory candidates square up to become Prime Minister,

:00:44. > :00:45.after a Leave vote in the referendum.

:00:46. > :00:52.Mr Corbyn, surely you can stop and spare 30 seconds

:00:53. > :00:56.to talk to the media, this is embarassing.

:00:57. > :00:59.He's lost a vote of no confidence and most of his Shadow Cabinet -

:01:00. > :01:05.When will one of his rebellious MPs make a move against him?

:01:06. > :01:08.And coming up here, MPs Mark Durkan and Sir Jeffrey

:01:09. > :01:09.Donaldson on the Brexit fallout at Westminister.

:01:10. > :01:12.Plus, what local Tory and Labour members make of the leadership

:01:13. > :01:30.who have pledged unflinching loyalty to the programme, so I'm expecting

:01:31. > :01:36.them to jump ship to ITV for Peston's Croissants any moment -

:01:37. > :01:40.Helen Lewis, Tom Newton Dunn and Isabel Oakeshott.

:01:41. > :01:43.So after a brutal week in Tory politics, the party's leadership

:01:44. > :01:45.candidates are all out making their pitch for the top job

:01:46. > :01:51.Conservative MPs get to whittle a shortlist of five down to two,

:01:52. > :01:55.who will then face a ballot of the party's wider membership.

:01:56. > :02:01.This is what we've heard from them so far this morning.

:02:02. > :02:08.We need to seize the opportunity. It's not just about leaving the EU,

:02:09. > :02:12.but giving certainty to businesses, saying to the world we are open for

:02:13. > :02:16.business, lets get some free trade agreement started as soon as we can.

:02:17. > :02:21.It's about saying to young people, we are sorting out the issues around

:02:22. > :02:24.competition from EU migrants for your jobs. Businesses need to

:02:25. > :02:28.upscale British workers. We just need to get on with it. We need to

:02:29. > :02:36.establish our own negotiating position. Once we hit Article 50,

:02:37. > :02:40.once we invoke that, the process at the EU starts and could take up to

:02:41. > :02:45.two years. What is important is that we get the right deal, a deal which

:02:46. > :02:49.is about controlling free movement, but is also about ensuring we have

:02:50. > :02:53.the best deal in trading goods and services. I didn't want to be in

:02:54. > :02:57.this position. If I had wanted to be leader, if my sole ambition was

:02:58. > :03:01.place and position, if I just wanted the glory, I would have declared my

:03:02. > :03:06.candidacy last week. Many friends urged me to do so. I put my own

:03:07. > :03:10.ambition to one side and did what I thought was right for the country.

:03:11. > :03:12.Now I am entering this race because I think the next leader of the

:03:13. > :03:16.country needs to be someone who believes heart and soul that Britain

:03:17. > :03:20.should be outside the European Union. We are all committed to

:03:21. > :03:26.taking Britain out of the European Union. We all stood on the manifesto

:03:27. > :03:31.to abide by the outcome of the referendum. We all share a

:03:32. > :03:35.commitment to taking Britain out of the European Union. What gains trust

:03:36. > :03:40.is showing now that we have a clearer idea for how we will do that

:03:41. > :03:42.and what our principles will be that will guide the exit.

:03:43. > :03:45.Four of the candidates there, and we'll be talking

:03:46. > :03:50.to Liam Fox in a moment, but first, let's talk to my panel.

:03:51. > :03:56.Isabel, we sum up this morning and see if you agree. Theresa May

:03:57. > :03:59.consolidated her frontrunner status. Andrea Leadsom performed in a way

:04:00. > :04:04.that suggested she wasn't quite ready for prime time. And Michael

:04:05. > :04:08.Gove cannot escape the manner in which he has become a candidate. I

:04:09. > :04:14.think that is fair. Certainly in relation to Michael Gove, what we

:04:15. > :04:17.have seen this morning is him trying to persuade the nation that the way

:04:18. > :04:21.he behaved was reasonable and had nothing to do with his personal

:04:22. > :04:25.ambition. The question is not whether it was reasonable or to do

:04:26. > :04:30.with his ambition, but whether it was an honourable way to behave. And

:04:31. > :04:33.most of us who know Michael would have thought until now that he is an

:04:34. > :04:37.honourable person, a man of principle. But he can't get away

:04:38. > :04:43.from the fact of the manner in which he did it, at the last possible

:04:44. > :04:47.moment, which was guaranteed to create a very ugly situation for

:04:48. > :04:50.Boris Johnson. And this morning, instead of wanting to try and talk

:04:51. > :04:54.about his vision for Britain and what he would do if he was Prime

:04:55. > :05:00.Minister and so on, again and again, he had to defend his behaviour over

:05:01. > :05:04.last weekend and through the week. Absolutely. Whether he likes it or

:05:05. > :05:08.not, he is now the Ed Miliband of the Conservative Party. That is the

:05:09. > :05:14.narrative. Ed Miliband killed his brother David. He killed his brother

:05:15. > :05:21.in arms, Boris Johnson. Michael Gove is an interesting candidate, very

:05:22. > :05:26.different to Theresa May, the radical entry. But he has got dead

:05:27. > :05:32.bodies piling up behind him. David Cameron, the European Union and now

:05:33. > :05:40.Boris Johnson. Even George Osborne was his friend. And Aberdeen Grammar

:05:41. > :05:48.schoolboy gets hat-trick of Bullingdon boys, takes all three

:05:49. > :05:56.out. It is an extraordinary record. But I don't see how he can move away

:05:57. > :06:00.from that. The person who really has to be worried now is Andrea Leadsom.

:06:01. > :06:04.She is target number one. The one thing Michael Gove has proved is

:06:05. > :06:08.that he's good at taking people's legs from underneath them. He is

:06:09. > :06:15.competing with Andrea Leadsom for crown of the truly 'em champion.

:06:16. > :06:21.That is Michael Gove's pitch -- the true Leave champion. She got into

:06:22. > :06:26.trouble this morning on tax returns. Well, there had been rumbling issue

:06:27. > :06:29.with Andrea Leadsom offshore trusts. This is not new. There is also a

:06:30. > :06:33.question mark over what she may or may not have said a couple of years

:06:34. > :06:37.ago about whether she really thinks Brexit is a good idea. I disagree

:06:38. > :06:42.with the negative assessment of Andrea Leadsom. I think she is an

:06:43. > :06:45.impressive person and she does have a good chance, because she can cast

:06:46. > :06:49.herself as a true Brexiteer who was undamaged like Michael Gove by the

:06:50. > :06:55.events of last week. It would have to be her or Michael Gove as a

:06:56. > :07:01.Brexiteer. Don't underestimate the effort to get Michael Gove getting

:07:02. > :07:07.into the last two. There is talk of Theresa May as such a frontrunner in

:07:08. > :07:11.the MPP is -- in the MPP collections that it may not go to the country.

:07:12. > :07:17.That would be a stretch, but if it is two Remainers, Theresa May and

:07:18. > :07:24.Stephen Crabb, but Theresa May is way ahead, it may not go to the

:07:25. > :07:28.country. But if it is a Remainer, May and a Brexiteer, Andrea Leadsom

:07:29. > :07:33.or Michael Gove, it has to go to the Tory party. That is exactly the

:07:34. > :07:38.dynamic that will play out in the next 12 days among the Tories in the

:07:39. > :07:41.Commons. What you have just done, I'm afraid, is committed to mistake

:07:42. > :07:46.that Stephen Crabb only this morning has said that everyone needs to move

:07:47. > :07:52.on from, which is between leavers and Remainers in the Tory party. It

:07:53. > :07:58.serves the likes of Michael Gove and Andrea Leadsom well to say there are

:07:59. > :08:04.two caps. If Tory MPs can move on quickly from the great divide, you

:08:05. > :08:07.could easily see two Remainers and the Theresa coronation. If they

:08:08. > :08:12.can't and the might of you ask questions like that, I cannot see

:08:13. > :08:15.anything but Theresa May and Michael Gove or Andrea Leadsom on the final

:08:16. > :08:21.ticket, because the Tory Parliamentary party will not allow

:08:22. > :08:26.others. If you think Tory MPs are going to move on for the issue that

:08:27. > :08:30.presided over them for the last generation, I have a bridge to sell

:08:31. > :08:35.you. I know, but the problem is that we voted for Brexit, not any

:08:36. > :08:40.particular form of it. It will come down to the issue of freedom of

:08:41. > :08:45.movement and what type Brexit you are offering. The original Leavers

:08:46. > :08:52.will probably offer a stronger version of Brexit than the other

:08:53. > :08:57.side. Who is going to win? Looks like Theresa May. Let me say Andrea

:08:58. > :09:01.Leadsom to be excited. Boringly, Theresa May. And you are just being

:09:02. > :09:03.contrarian. We shall see. A long way to go.

:09:04. > :09:06.Now, Liam Fox is the only candidate to have stood

:09:07. > :09:09.Here he is, launching his bid on Thursday.

:09:10. > :09:12.If we are to heal the divisions created by the referendum,

:09:13. > :09:14.we must fully implement the instruction given to us

:09:15. > :09:21.for membership of the single market

:09:22. > :09:25.if it entails the movement of people.

:09:26. > :09:31.Those who voted to leave the EU would regard it as a betrayal,

:09:32. > :09:47.Everybody thinks you will come fifth on Tuesday. You would be the first

:09:48. > :09:52.to be knocked out, so why are you standing? Well, we will see what the

:09:53. > :09:58.result is. If you remember 2005, they were all wrong then. The reason

:09:59. > :10:03.I am in this is because we need to take the argument on from the

:10:04. > :10:06.referendum to how we take Britain out of the European Union. We also

:10:07. > :10:10.have to look at other issues. We are not in this leadership race in

:10:11. > :10:14.netting a Leader of the Opposition, which is what we have done before.

:10:15. > :10:17.Someone does not have four years to play themselves in. The day after

:10:18. > :10:22.this election, someone will be difficult from Mr Putin and I will

:10:23. > :10:26.have to make an assessment on our nuclear deterrence. It is a lot more

:10:27. > :10:31.than just a rerun of the European argument. We have to get this into

:10:32. > :10:35.perspective. It is not a parlour game we are playing, not an

:10:36. > :10:39.extension of the European Union. This is a government having to make

:10:40. > :10:45.serious decisions in a dangerous world. How many Tory MPs are backing

:10:46. > :10:49.you? I am not saying, because it only helps everybody else.

:10:50. > :10:57.Tactically, it makes sense to keep your powder dry. In double figures's

:10:58. > :11:02.oh, yes. But still in fifth place. I don't know what the other numbers

:11:03. > :11:05.will be. This is different from the previous campaign I stood in,

:11:06. > :11:09.because in that one, by this point, most people had committed. There is

:11:10. > :11:15.a large number of uncommitted people in this race. Therefore, the most

:11:16. > :11:23.important event will be the party has things tomorrow night. There are

:11:24. > :11:27.three Leavers running. What do you bring to the contest that Andrea

:11:28. > :11:32.Leadsom and Michael Gove don't? I have been in the Foreign Office. I

:11:33. > :11:40.understand how European mechanics operates. We are now seeing the road

:11:41. > :11:45.ahead. People have been asking, how do you set the ground rules before

:11:46. > :11:48.you trigger article 50? This week, we have seen a differentiation

:11:49. > :11:51.between the position of the commission, which is hard line, and

:11:52. > :11:55.a softer approach from our elected colleagues across the European

:11:56. > :12:00.Union. For example, on Newsnight the other night, the European trade

:12:01. > :12:02.Commissioner said we couldn't have any negotiations on trade with

:12:03. > :12:06.Britain until we were outside the EU. She was asked, wouldn't that be

:12:07. > :12:11.detrimental to every economy in Europe? And she said yes. That is a

:12:12. > :12:15.crazy position and it tells you how stupid the approach of the

:12:16. > :12:19.commission is. So we have to talk to our German and French colleagues who

:12:20. > :12:23.have elections next year, and we have to say to them, let's talk

:12:24. > :12:29.about what would be in our mutual interests. Before triggering Article

:12:30. > :12:35.50. Yes, and say to them, what sort of flexibility do we have? What can

:12:36. > :12:39.we do in our mutual interests? You have elections next year and you

:12:40. > :12:46.want to sell to the Germans and the French and idea of how to maintain

:12:47. > :12:49.prosperity. At the moment, they are saying no informal talks. It is true

:12:50. > :12:51.that Mrs Merkel is sounding more friendly than the commission or even

:12:52. > :12:59.President Hollande, but at the moment, there are no talks. You must

:13:00. > :13:03.expect that to change? I do expect it to change once we have a new

:13:04. > :13:07.Prime Minister. We want to implement the view of the British people. I

:13:08. > :13:12.don't want a deal that includes anything to do with free movement.

:13:13. > :13:16.That was rejected by the public. So we have to say to the European

:13:17. > :13:21.Parliament, this is the position we have all stop how do we do that in a

:13:22. > :13:24.way that doesn't cause you greater inconvenience than necessary? But

:13:25. > :13:29.there will be a trade-off between an element of free movement, but less

:13:30. > :13:35.than we have at the moment, and a certain access to the single market,

:13:36. > :13:39.but less than we have at the moment? For example, whether you have quotas

:13:40. > :13:46.in turns of job visas you are going to give, that is something. If we

:13:47. > :13:49.had quotas for Europeans coming here, they undoubtedly will have

:13:50. > :13:56.quotas for us going there. It will have to be reciprocal. It is one of

:13:57. > :14:01.the things we will have to understand. If we introduce

:14:02. > :14:04.restrictions on work permits, settlement and work will be

:14:05. > :14:09.restricted, but not travel, and we have to expect moves in the other

:14:10. > :14:13.direction. Is it true that if Theresa May had promised to make you

:14:14. > :14:18.her Foreign Secretary, you would not be running? I would not have

:14:19. > :14:21.accepted any promise. Anybody who makes you a promise in a race like

:14:22. > :14:27.this doesn't deserve to get to the top. Was a matter for discussion

:14:28. > :14:32.between your people and her people? No. I have had discussions with

:14:33. > :14:36.Stephen Crabb and Andrea Leadsom is a friend, and I have spoken to

:14:37. > :14:41.Theresa, but I would not make or accept any offer, because any Prime

:14:42. > :14:47.Minister must keep themselves free from promises to bring in the

:14:48. > :14:51.Cabinet they require. And with a small parliamentary majority and a

:14:52. > :14:54.very big split in the party ideologically over what happened in

:14:55. > :14:57.the European Union, whoever wins will have to make a lot of

:14:58. > :14:58.compromises across a lot of the party if we are to have an effective

:14:59. > :15:11.government. What's most important quality for

:15:12. > :15:16.the next Prime Minister, to be a Brexiteer or to have experience?

:15:17. > :15:24.They are both important. Experience matters. It is not something... So

:15:25. > :15:32.the Remainer would be possible? It doesn't have to be a Brexiteer? It

:15:33. > :15:39.is possible to be a Remainer, but I have to view it in this way, I think

:15:40. > :15:43.the honest critique of this is that how do our European partners see it?

:15:44. > :15:47.If you were negotiating with Britain, would you be more likely to

:15:48. > :15:51.take seriously somebody who had campaigned to leave the European

:15:52. > :15:58.Union or someone who chose to remain? If you are out after

:15:59. > :16:03.Tuesday, who will you back? Naturally you don't even expect me

:16:04. > :16:13.to answer hypothetical question like that? I do. Hope springs eternal,

:16:14. > :16:19.but all the candidates have their strengths and weaknesses. So which

:16:20. > :16:23.one? If that were to happen, and I'm not expecting it to happen on

:16:24. > :16:27.Tuesday, I would come to a decision some time after that and make it

:16:28. > :16:35.known in the usual way. You don't know yet? If I know I'm not going to

:16:36. > :16:39.tell you. At the moment Theresa May is the front runner. If they were to

:16:40. > :16:44.emerge from the Parliamentary contest with a clear majority, an

:16:45. > :16:48.overall majority among MPs, and polls suggesting a clear majority

:16:49. > :16:54.among the party faithful in the country, should it still go to the

:16:55. > :16:58.country? Under our rules, it should still go to the country and I think

:16:59. > :17:03.the Parliamentary party... The Conservative Party in the country

:17:04. > :17:08.would expect there to be a contest. That might differ, if there were to

:17:09. > :17:11.be a huge an overall majority in parliament for any one candidate, I

:17:12. > :17:15.think MPs would say what would happen then if the Parliamentary

:17:16. > :17:20.party had a different view from the party and the country, what would it

:17:21. > :17:24.mean for the authority of the Prime Minister? It is a hypothetical, but

:17:25. > :17:29.it is an important question we will have to think about in the next 12

:17:30. > :17:34.days. Very well, a lot can happen in the next 12 days, because not much

:17:35. > :17:36.has happened in the last 12 days! Liam Fox, thank you.

:17:37. > :17:38.Now, as the Tories descended into post-referendum turmoil,

:17:39. > :17:40.the stand-off continues in the Labour Party

:17:41. > :17:43.with rebellious MPs - the bulk of the parliamentary party

:17:44. > :17:45.expressing no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, but yet to put up

:17:46. > :17:49.Mark Lobel has been following the twists and turns

:17:50. > :18:03.I think people may look back on this week as the week

:18:04. > :18:05.when the Labour Party committed suicide.

:18:06. > :18:08.He's a good and decent man, but he is not a leader,

:18:09. > :18:13.The Labour Party are being ripped apart...

:18:14. > :18:31.sacked his Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn,

:18:32. > :18:33.he received over 30 Shadow Cabinet and ministerial resignations

:18:34. > :18:34.ahead of this EU referendum debate.

:18:35. > :18:40.and the country will thank neither the benches in front of me

:18:41. > :18:44.in internal manoeuvring at this time.

:18:45. > :18:51.In response, his supporters amassed outside Parliament.

:18:52. > :18:55.Don't let those people who wish us ill divide us.

:18:56. > :19:00.at a meeting with his party behind closed doors

:19:01. > :19:02.on the eve of a no-confidence vote

:19:03. > :19:08.his battle with his own colleagues worsened.

:19:09. > :19:10.It was overwhelmingly dignified for most of the meeting,

:19:11. > :19:14.where people were pleading with Jeremy saying,

:19:15. > :19:17."I like you, you've always been my friend.

:19:18. > :19:20.I appreciate what you've tried to do,

:19:21. > :19:27.but this is tearing the Labour Party apart".

:19:28. > :19:30.With 50 vacant positions to fill, Jeremy Corbyn reshuffled his pack

:19:31. > :19:40.He was visibly uncomfortable with the arrangement.

:19:41. > :19:42.And between takes, a critic of his leadership,

:19:43. > :19:47.his deputy Tom Watson, had left the room.

:19:48. > :19:51.I think that Seamus Milne, Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell

:19:52. > :19:58.and Diane Abbott, they have the mentality of people in a bunker.

:19:59. > :20:02.The whole of the rest of the world is against them.

:20:03. > :20:06.They are interested in the plight of people on Pacific islands.

:20:07. > :20:09.They are interested in the Falklands.

:20:10. > :20:12.They are interested in a whole range of things like that.

:20:13. > :20:15.But they are not interested and have very little understanding

:20:16. > :20:22.of the processes of Westminster politics.

:20:23. > :20:25.On Wednesday, in the first PMQs since Brexit,

:20:26. > :20:29.the Prime Minister surprised many with this intervention.

:20:30. > :20:37.Well, the heavens have certainly opened on Jeremy Corbyn's parade.

:20:38. > :20:42.Ed Miliband, once tipped to join his cabinet after the referendum,

:20:43. > :20:48.I did find one fan of Jeremy Corbyn's,

:20:49. > :20:56.It's obviously a highly emotional subject, this,

:20:57. > :21:01.On Thursday morning, it looked like a challenger

:21:02. > :21:05.Are you going to stand for the leadership?

:21:06. > :21:09.I'll be saying something later today.

:21:10. > :21:12.It's 2.35 here in Westminster this Thursday afternoon, and rumours

:21:13. > :21:16.We understand that four of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies,

:21:17. > :21:19.four MPs he'd just recently put into his new Shadow Cabinet,

:21:20. > :21:21.have gone into his office and are trying

:21:22. > :21:29.As it happened, they weren't invited in.

:21:30. > :21:32.Our source said the Shadow Cabinet ministers were left exasperated

:21:33. > :21:33.and frustrated, unable to deliver their suggested

:21:34. > :21:41.retirement plan for Mr Corbyn to the man himself.

:21:42. > :21:49.no challenge to Jeremy Corbyn's leadership emerged.

:21:50. > :21:54.We're at the Royal Festival Hall, and we're just about to hear

:21:55. > :21:55.a speech from Jeremy Corbyn's biggest ally,

:21:56. > :21:59.the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

:22:00. > :22:01.He claimed the Shadow Cabinet resignations have allowed

:22:02. > :22:06.a new generation of politicians to come forward.

:22:07. > :22:10.This has given opportunities to people like Barry,

:22:11. > :22:13.who I think should have been in Shadow Cabinet years ago,

:22:14. > :22:17.And they're rising to the challenge effectively.

:22:18. > :22:22.These are the heroes and heroines of our movement at the moment.

:22:23. > :22:25.You talked about the movement, rather than the party.

:22:26. > :22:28.Is that usurping traditional party structures?

:22:29. > :22:33.The movement is the Labour Party, and we're building it on a mass

:22:34. > :22:36.basis into a social movement so it isn't just an electoral machine,

:22:37. > :22:39.it is something that engages in the wider community.

:22:40. > :22:42.If the Labour Party is to reconnect with people, it needs to do more

:22:43. > :22:45.than have soundbites and a polished media performance

:22:46. > :22:51.It needs to build a social movement, and I think Jeremy and John

:22:52. > :22:56.They've stood on picket lines alongside striking workers.

:22:57. > :23:02.With the threat of a leadership contest on the horizon,

:23:03. > :23:06.over the past week, Labour membership has risen by 60,000.

:23:07. > :23:09.But a new YouGov poll suggests that Labour Party members think

:23:10. > :23:11.Jeremy Corbyn is not doing as well in his job

:23:12. > :23:20.Aside from the focus on his own future, Jeremy Corbyn

:23:21. > :23:26.still has half a dozen key shadow front bench posts to fill so that

:23:27. > :23:34.Labour can offer effective opposition in Parliament.

:23:35. > :23:37.I'm joined now by the Labour MP Barry Gardiner, who has stayed loyal

:23:38. > :23:41.to Jeremy Corbyn and is now in the Shadow Cabinet.

:23:42. > :23:49.How can Jeremy Corbyn be regarded as a credible Leader of the Opposition?

:23:50. > :23:55.He cannot fill his Shadow Cabinet team and 80% of his fellow Labour

:23:56. > :23:58.MPs have no confidence in him. We have a very difficult situation in

:23:59. > :24:02.the Labour Party at the moment. We have a division between the

:24:03. > :24:06.Parliamentary Labour Party... The Parliamentary Labour Party has never

:24:07. > :24:12.actually supported Jeremy. Last year I think it was only 36 nominations

:24:13. > :24:16.that he secured. I didn't nominate Jeremy and I didn't vote for him,

:24:17. > :24:20.but nonetheless the way in which our party decides upon a leader is not

:24:21. > :24:26.just with the Parliamentary Labour Party, it is with the membership as

:24:27. > :24:32.well. What we have to do now is we now need to have a situation where

:24:33. > :24:36.we broker that divide, and we have seen, I think earlier today, we have

:24:37. > :24:41.seen that Jeremy himself wants to do that. He came out in the press today

:24:42. > :24:47.saying that, and also I think the unions have been saying that as

:24:48. > :24:51.well. A figure like Frances O'Grady or perhaps John Prescott, someone

:24:52. > :24:57.who has stayed neutral, out of the fight, but ultimately has the best

:24:58. > :25:01.interest, not of Jeremy, not of the party, but of the country, which

:25:02. > :25:07.needs to have a strong opposition at the moment at a time when you have

:25:08. > :25:11.seen the newspapers this morning, the Conservatives have their own

:25:12. > :25:19.problems. You have dealt with that. Calling each other hypocrites. Boris

:25:20. > :25:23.stabbed David, Michael Gove stabbed Boris, but there are fundamental

:25:24. > :25:29.issues about housing, fundamental issues about investment in this

:25:30. > :25:34.country. Before you can even get to that or deserve a hearing on that,

:25:35. > :25:37.you have got to sort things out as you have been seen. We have John

:25:38. > :25:42.Prescott on later in the programme, we will see if he is willing to be

:25:43. > :25:45.the honest broker in this, but in your mind what would be the general

:25:46. > :25:53.principle of a brokered agreement? What would be the compromise for Mr

:25:54. > :25:57.Corbyn? I'm not sitting here in that position as the negotiator, but what

:25:58. > :26:01.I would say is there are certain things that need to be respected.

:26:02. > :26:08.The democracy of the party needs to be respected, and that's what I had

:26:09. > :26:15.against the way in which this whole... Call it what you like...

:26:16. > :26:19.To, plot was done. It was done in a way that didn't respect party

:26:20. > :26:24.members, didn't respect party democracy, and whatever we end up

:26:25. > :26:28.with the result of a negotiation, it must show that respect for the party

:26:29. > :26:39.membership. The second obviously is the legacy that Jeremy feels is his

:26:40. > :26:43.responsibility. He was elected with particular... On a particular

:26:44. > :26:50.mandate, political mandate. Not just about party democratisation, but a

:26:51. > :26:55.suite of policies that he would want to be sure were continued. Somehow

:26:56. > :27:01.we need to make sure that the compromise, whatever it is, brings

:27:02. > :27:06.both of those together. You are already talking about Mr Corbyn's

:27:07. > :27:09.legacy and you are talking about a suite of policies that could

:27:10. > :27:17.continue to be party policy even if he wasn't there. We are talking

:27:18. > :27:24.about a negotiated settlement. Which could involve Mr Corbyn going? That

:27:25. > :27:28.is not a matter for me. If you go into a negotiation, you are going to

:27:29. > :27:33.negotiate and what we know is that one side of that negotiation wants

:27:34. > :27:37.Jeremy to go now without a contest. The other side of that negotiation

:27:38. > :27:43.has clearly said there isn't going to be a resignation. What one has to

:27:44. > :27:52.do is say, any of these permutations may come together. The question is

:27:53. > :27:56.in what form, what shape? The coup, if I can call it that, try to ensure

:27:57. > :28:03.Jeremy simply threw up his hands and went. That is clearly not going to

:28:04. > :28:09.happen. Therefore what we have to do is be able to provide a strong and

:28:10. > :28:14.credible and real opposition to the Government at the moment because the

:28:15. > :28:21.country is in crisis after Brexit. Absolute crisis. Not just the pound

:28:22. > :28:25.falling to 35 euros, not just the stock markets but the whole future

:28:26. > :28:29.negotiation of investment in this country is up for grabs and we need

:28:30. > :28:33.to be saying that firmly to the House of Commons. And we don't have,

:28:34. > :28:38.at a time when many people think we most need it, we don't have a

:28:39. > :28:42.credible opposition. And we don't have a credible government, they are

:28:43. > :28:47.squabbling like rats in sacks. That seems to be the default position in

:28:48. > :28:52.politics on all sides! Let me put this to you, if you don't have a

:28:53. > :28:57.contest, Mr Corbyn cannot function as a credible opposition because he

:28:58. > :29:01.cannot fill the Shadow Cabinet and the other positions. If you do have

:29:02. > :29:07.a contest and he wins in the country, that doesn't resolve things

:29:08. > :29:14.either so neither of these two options really help you. Do they?

:29:15. > :29:20.That may be true but there may be a third way. What is that? A brokered

:29:21. > :29:27.agreement without Mr Corbyn? There would have to be a third way. I

:29:28. > :29:34.don't know what it is. It is not Tony Blair, I assume? We have moved

:29:35. > :29:38.on somewhat since those days and I'm huge admirer of Tony Blair and he

:29:39. > :29:42.led the Labour Party into government, and he won those

:29:43. > :29:46.collections and delivered a tremendous mandate, but that's not

:29:47. > :29:51.where we are now. It is your use of the third way that interested me. If

:29:52. > :29:55.there is to be a contest, if one of the rebels finally comes forward as

:29:56. > :30:02.a challenger and you have the vote again, would you vote for Mr Corbyn?

:30:03. > :30:11.I didn't vote for Jeremy nine months ago. He was not my choice as leader

:30:12. > :30:16.of the party. What I will do, if a candidate comes forward to challenge

:30:17. > :30:19.Jeremy, if Jeremy is part of that election, I will look at all of the

:30:20. > :30:24.candidates and make my judgment at that time as to what best serves not

:30:25. > :30:29.only the interests of the Labour Party, but what best serves the

:30:30. > :30:32.interests of the country. How did you vote in the no-confidence

:30:33. > :30:36.motion? That was a secret ballot and I will keep it that way. So you

:30:37. > :30:41.didn't vote for him before and you might not vote for him again and you

:30:42. > :30:44.keep the no-confidence ballot secret. Isn't there a systemic

:30:45. > :30:48.problem in the Labour Party that has developed with all the new Labour is

:30:49. > :30:53.that came in from last summer onwards, that they have invigorated

:30:54. > :30:58.your membership, but they may not be very representative, they are

:30:59. > :31:02.certainly not representative of the parliamentary party, and they may

:31:03. > :31:10.not be representative of the wider Labour voter, never mind the wider

:31:11. > :31:13.electorate. The wonderful thing about political parties is, if you

:31:14. > :31:20.look at most members of most political parties, they are a bit

:31:21. > :31:25.like anoraks. They are not similar to ordinary people, and that is in

:31:26. > :31:37.both parties. You are asking a more subtle question, whether we are

:31:38. > :31:41.seeing entries into the party. -- entryism. And there has been, but

:31:42. > :31:45.those people have been evicted from the party, and rightly so. I don't

:31:46. > :31:49.want people to join the Labour Party because they can think they can

:31:50. > :31:53.destabilise it. I want people to join because they want to fight this

:31:54. > :31:58.rotten government, make sure the real issues that people are facing

:31:59. > :32:01.in terms of their jobs and their livelihoods are tackled and get out

:32:02. > :32:04.with me on the doorstep each weekend, knocking on doors and

:32:05. > :32:11.talking to people, not just coming into exercise their vote once in a

:32:12. > :32:15.while. Final question, which could be answered yes, know or don't know.

:32:16. > :32:18.When we talk again at the Labour Party conference in Liverpool at the

:32:19. > :32:25.end of September, will Mr Corbyn still be your leader? I don't know.

:32:26. > :32:29.I haven't got a crystal ball to see the results of whatever negotiations

:32:30. > :32:30.Jeremy now engages in. Thank you for joining us in these interesting

:32:31. > :32:33.times. Well, earlier, Len McCluskey -

:32:34. > :32:35.the General Secretary of the Unite union,

:32:36. > :32:37.Labour's biggest donor - told Andrew Marr that Mr Corbyn

:32:38. > :32:39.was not going anywhere, and that rebellious MPs seemed

:32:40. > :32:42.to have been seduced Grandees being dragged out to be

:32:43. > :32:45.part of this unedifying coup The reality is that this

:32:46. > :32:50.has been a political Undermined, humiliated,

:32:51. > :32:58.attacked in order to push him out. Jeremy Corbyn is made

:32:59. > :33:04.of stronger stuff. and he has made it clear that

:33:05. > :33:09.he will not step down. And Chris Bryant, who resigned

:33:10. > :33:24.from the Shadow Cabinet Will there be a challenge to Mr

:33:25. > :33:30.Corbyn now for the leadership? Well, there is a previous question. It

:33:31. > :33:34.seems to me that there are millions of people who would like to be able

:33:35. > :33:38.to vote for the Labour Party, but whilst we have this unsustainable

:33:39. > :33:42.position, they feel it is impossible. And the unsustainability

:33:43. > :33:47.of it is that we are a parliamentary democracy. So the first job of them

:33:48. > :33:51.leader of the Labour Party is to lead the Labour Party and provide an

:33:52. > :33:57.opposition. That requires 95 MPs on the front bench. Jeremy can't get

:33:58. > :34:00.more than 20 or 25. That means the present situation is unsustainable.

:34:01. > :34:08.The only person who can break that logjam is Jeremy. But the logjam

:34:09. > :34:15.would be tested if someone challenged him. So let me come to

:34:16. > :34:19.the second question. Will somebody challenging? Should they? I don't

:34:20. > :34:23.want anyone to challenging yet, I want Jeremy to read the writing on

:34:24. > :34:26.the wall. We have now had an opinion poll of Labour Party members which

:34:27. > :34:31.shows that 44% of them want him to go now and another 10% want him to

:34:32. > :34:34.go before the general election. We have had votes of no confidence not

:34:35. > :34:40.only in the Parliamentary party, more than 80% of MPs, this has never

:34:41. > :34:44.happened before, saying they have no confidence in his leadership. That

:34:45. > :34:48.means he wouldn't be able to get on the ballot paper. There is a reason

:34:49. > :34:51.why the rule book says you have to get a certain number of nominations

:34:52. > :34:55.from the Parliamentary party, because if you haven't even got that

:34:56. > :35:04.much support, how can you leave the Labour Party? Even if you are the

:35:05. > :35:08.incumbent? People watching this programme who may not be political

:35:09. > :35:11.will think that if you are the leader of a party and you challenge

:35:12. > :35:16.for the leadership, natural justice says you should be allowed to defend

:35:17. > :35:19.your position? But if you then return to the status quo with the

:35:20. > :35:25.same unsustainable position, that doesn't resolve anything. That would

:35:26. > :35:30.be your democratic decision. Well, because we are a Parliamentary

:35:31. > :35:36.democracy, the leader of the Labour Party has to be able to unite the

:35:37. > :35:41.Parliamentary party and recruit supporters to our cause. Amongst the

:35:42. > :35:48.membership, I don't think Jeremy would win a contest. It was striking

:35:49. > :35:54.to me how many people have got in touch with me from my local party.

:35:55. > :35:56.Of course there are those who are ardent supporters, but others have

:35:57. > :36:02.cut in touch to say I only joined the Labour Party to support Jeremy,

:36:03. > :36:06.but this can't go on. He is not convincing me or my neighbours, and

:36:07. > :36:08.they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

:36:09. > :36:11.they want him to go. You may be right, but there is only one way to

:36:12. > :36:16.put that to the test and that is for someone to challenge Mr Corbyn.

:36:17. > :36:22.Let's see how the dominoes fall. No, because that brings us to the same

:36:23. > :36:27.position. It would be phenomenally bruising within the Labour Party to

:36:28. > :36:31.have that contest. More effective would be for Jeremy to read the

:36:32. > :36:36.writing on the wall. It must be eight metres high now. How can you

:36:37. > :36:38.go forward with a situation as leader of the Labour Party, when

:36:39. > :36:42.seven of your new members of your Shadow Cabinet, that you only

:36:43. > :36:45.appointed this week as Corbyn supporters, want to come and see you

:36:46. > :36:52.and you are so frightened that you can't even meet with them? I see the

:36:53. > :37:00.logic of that. How long will you give him to read this writing on the

:37:01. > :37:06.wall? It is up to Jeremy. He is a decent man. I can't imagine any

:37:07. > :37:09.other leader of the Labour Party in our history, apart from perhaps

:37:10. > :37:13.Ramsay MacDonald, who would not have taken on board the result of a

:37:14. > :37:18.motion of no confidence. But he seems to be surrounded by people who

:37:19. > :37:21.are telling him not to. We have heard that he was thinking of

:37:22. > :37:26.standing down, but was talked out of it. We don't know the veracity of

:37:27. > :37:33.that. But if he doesn't and decides to hang on, what do you do? Once you

:37:34. > :37:40.are in the bunker and you have a bunker mentality, the game is up. I

:37:41. > :37:43.am sure that in Jeremy's hard, he knows there is a danger that his

:37:44. > :37:49.broken leadership will break the Labour Party. Parliament goes into

:37:50. > :37:53.recess on the 21st of July. The Tories haven't got much time to go

:37:54. > :37:57.further leadership process, and you haven't got much time. If he hangs

:37:58. > :38:02.on until the parliamentary recess, he is there for the party

:38:03. > :38:07.conference. No. We then also have the September session. But if Jeremy

:38:08. > :38:13.is listening, I would just say, please, you are the only person who

:38:14. > :38:16.can break this logjam. You could go out with dignity and the whole of

:38:17. > :38:20.the Labour movement, and the millions who would love to vote for

:38:21. > :38:24.the Labour Party at the time when we have a gastric Tory government which

:38:25. > :38:27.might inflict even more harm to further -- a gastric Tory government

:38:28. > :38:31.which might inflict further anti-austerity policies come if you

:38:32. > :38:34.were to go now, those people would say you have done the honourable

:38:35. > :38:39.thing. The Labour Party isn't going to go back to what it was ten years

:38:40. > :38:42.ago. What did you make of what Barry Gardner was saying about a third

:38:43. > :38:48.way, some kind of brokered arrangement, which I took to imply

:38:49. > :38:53.need not mean Mr Corbyn continuing as leader? It didn't sound to me as

:38:54. > :39:00.if Barry was supportive of Jeremy remaining as leader. Part of what

:39:01. > :39:04.happens now must be Jeremy going, I think. But it is a problem if Jeremy

:39:05. > :39:08.will not even see the seven people in his Shadow Cabinet that he

:39:09. > :39:11.appointed this week who wanted to talk to him about his departing with

:39:12. > :39:15.honour more or if he will not even have a meeting with the leader of

:39:16. > :39:19.the deputy Labour Party, who also has a mandate. My local members the

:39:20. > :39:26.other day, some of them want Jeremy to stay, but many were saying this

:39:27. > :39:30.is now unsustainable. Jeremy must go. The party must treat him with

:39:31. > :39:37.decency so that we can move forward and take the fight to the Tories. If

:39:38. > :39:43.he doesn't go, or if the is a contest and he wins again, what

:39:44. > :39:48.happens to the Labour Party? That would break the back of the Labour

:39:49. > :39:53.Party on, I would argue, the vanity of those surrounding Jeremy. And I

:39:54. > :39:57.think that would be a terrible shame, because there are people in

:39:58. > :40:00.my constituency who will only get a decent chance in life, and for that

:40:01. > :40:04.matter in other parts of the country who, after the Brexit vote last

:40:05. > :40:08.week, wanted the Labour Party to come up with a strong argument about

:40:09. > :40:12.how we could change the country for the better, and they will have

:40:13. > :40:17.nowhere to turn. If you break the back of the party, it sounds

:40:18. > :40:22.possible that the Labour Party would split. We are parliamentary

:40:23. > :40:25.democracy. We were founded as the Labour Party because the trade

:40:26. > :40:31.unions started losing battles through the courts and we wanted to

:40:32. > :40:35.change the laws and to do that, you had to change the government. That

:40:36. > :40:38.is what I still believe in. But the leader of the Labour Party has to

:40:39. > :40:42.convince voters that we have a compelling vision for the future of

:40:43. > :40:48.this country. And Jeremy is unable to do that. Many of his policies, I

:40:49. > :40:55.would support. I want us to change the language around public

:40:56. > :40:59.expenditure and the public sector. Many parts of the country feel no

:41:00. > :41:04.elected and there are angry people who want to vote Labour, but are not

:41:05. > :41:10.convinced -- they feel neglected. As things stand, even with chaos in the

:41:11. > :41:19.governing party, you would need a miracle to win in 2020. I believe in

:41:20. > :41:27.miracles. And the most important miracle is that Jeremy can break the

:41:28. > :41:33.logjam. You still don't want to hit Ed Miliband smack you have changed

:41:34. > :41:39.your mind on that. I don't. I wish the Labour Party were not where they

:41:40. > :41:41.are, because I can do nothing for the Rhondda. May your God go with

:41:42. > :41:42.you. It's coming up to 11:40,

:41:43. > :41:45.you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:41:46. > :41:48.in Scotland, who leave us now Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics

:41:49. > :41:59.in Northern Ireland. It was a vote which was meant

:42:00. > :42:01.to settle the Europe question once and for all,

:42:02. > :42:04.but one week on, no-one could have predicted the fallout at Westminster

:42:05. > :42:07.over the last few days. So what impact will all the ongoing

:42:08. > :42:11.uncertainty have here? We'll hear from the DUP MP

:42:12. > :42:13.Sir Jeffrey Donaldson Plus we'll get the thoughts of local

:42:14. > :42:19.Labour and Conservative members here on the leadership

:42:20. > :42:23.crises in their parties. And with their thoughts

:42:24. > :42:26.on all of that, my guests of the day are PR consultant Sheila Davidson

:42:27. > :42:28.and Allison Morris "the greatest constitutional

:42:29. > :42:40.crisis in modern times." No-one could have predicted

:42:41. > :42:42.the events of the last seven days at Westminister,

:42:43. > :42:45.and all that uncertainty over there is doing little to help

:42:46. > :42:48.concerns about the impact Joining me are the DUP's

:42:49. > :42:52.Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, and in our Foyle studio,

:42:53. > :43:04.the SDLP's Mark Durkan. You are both very welcome to the

:43:05. > :43:08.programme. Sir Jeffrey, do you accept that there are potentially

:43:09. > :43:12.serious consequences for Northern Ireland? There are serious

:43:13. > :43:18.consequences that flow from the whole of the UK. Of course this is a

:43:19. > :43:23.new beginning for the UK, and we will have to work our way through

:43:24. > :43:28.all of the issues, and negotiations haven't even begun yet. I think that

:43:29. > :43:31.will come in the autumn after the Conservative Party elected new Prime

:43:32. > :43:40.Minister. In the meantime there will be a period of uncertainty, no doubt

:43:41. > :43:42.about that, we can't alter that. We have to respect the clearly

:43:43. > :43:44.expressed wishes of the British people and get on in Parliament with

:43:45. > :43:49.implementing their wishes, which means negotiating a new relationship

:43:50. > :43:53.with the EU. In the meantime the argument is while that is happening

:43:54. > :43:58.Northern Ireland specifically and places like it, perhaps the North of

:43:59. > :44:02.England and Scotland, are losing out potentially seriously. Identix at

:44:03. > :44:08.that. Northern Ireland continues as a member of the EU through the UK

:44:09. > :44:13.for the next two years. Nothing has changed. Since the vote the reality

:44:14. > :44:17.is still there, we are part of the EU. The political vacuum is the

:44:18. > :44:21.point. There is, and that will soon be put right with the change of

:44:22. > :44:25.leadership in the Conservative Party with a new Prime Minister and a team

:44:26. > :44:28.charged with negotiating our new relationship with the EU, and I

:44:29. > :44:33.think we will then begin to see clarity around all this. It will

:44:34. > :44:38.take time, it always would take time. The vote to leave the EU is

:44:39. > :44:43.only the beginning of the process, not the end. Mark Durkan, do you

:44:44. > :44:47.believe in the current circumstances we are specifically and unfairly

:44:48. > :44:53.missing out, losing out, suffering? Of course we are. Democracy and the

:44:54. > :44:56.principle of consent is what made the heart of the Good Friday

:44:57. > :45:03.agreement and our arrangements, and we have been taken out of the EU

:45:04. > :45:06.without our consent. The people of Northern Ireland have clearly

:45:07. > :45:12.expressed will to Remain part of the EU, wasn't just in the referendum

:45:13. > :45:16.last week, the clearly expressed view was also the view when we voted

:45:17. > :45:21.for the Good Friday Agreement. But this was UK wide referendum and

:45:22. > :45:25.overall the UK voted to leave. I also know Northern Ireland voted

:45:26. > :45:31.strongly to Remain just as Scotland did as well, and we can't simply

:45:32. > :45:34.flippantly ignore that reality. If we as politicians are meant to be

:45:35. > :45:39.representing the wishes, will and interests of people here we should

:45:40. > :45:44.do it, we cannot traverse oldest and say, the UK said something

:45:45. > :45:48.different. We all knew the rules, we signed up to it when we voted in the

:45:49. > :45:53.referendum. Your critics would say you are trying to move the

:45:54. > :45:59.goalposts. First of all not all of us thought this referendum or went

:46:00. > :46:04.along with it when we were told. We told David Cameron he would be found

:46:05. > :46:06.out. Some of us warned about the Christopher Columbus syndrome of

:46:07. > :46:09.starting out not knowing where you are going and getting there not

:46:10. > :46:15.knowing where you are, returning not knowing where you have been, and

:46:16. > :46:18.that is what has happened here. We shouldn't be left having to tag

:46:19. > :46:23.along with what they miss leadership in which politics gave us. This is

:46:24. > :46:27.about English politics, and all Jeffrey said this morning is, it

:46:28. > :46:35.will be all right, we simply tailgate whatever English politics

:46:36. > :46:37.gives us after a new Tory leader has emerged. To re-civilian, the

:46:38. > :46:43.Secretary of State... She was crystal clear about this -- to Reza

:46:44. > :46:46.bilious, she said membership of the EU is that member state level,

:46:47. > :46:52.National question. End of discussion? To Reza bilious, that is

:46:53. > :46:57.for other people to say, but that is not how the people of Ireland view

:46:58. > :47:01.it or the people of Northern Ireland. We had a different take on

:47:02. > :47:09.this, we have a right for a different safe. Our position in the

:47:10. > :47:13.UK isn't just a settled by Parliament in Westminster, our

:47:14. > :47:15.position is as settled by the Irish people's part of the Good Friday

:47:16. > :47:20.Agreement on the basis of consent, and it is a bit much Theresa

:47:21. > :47:24.Villiers in her statement the other day wiping her finger at the

:47:25. > :47:27.dissidents and saying they are axed in against the expressed democratic

:47:28. > :47:34.will of the people of Northern Ireland. She is doing, and she goes

:47:35. > :47:39.on to say pocket -- politics is based on consent. How do you respond

:47:40. > :47:43.to that, Jeffrey Donaldson? There may have been a UK referendum and a

:47:44. > :47:48.clear result by four percent to leave. But the politics of Scotland

:47:49. > :47:51.suggest some sort of special deal mainly to be created, and the

:47:52. > :47:54.politics of Northern Ireland and Ireland mean it is not as

:47:55. > :48:00.straightforward as you as others in your party and others who were

:48:01. > :48:04.pro-leave would like it to be. The difference between Mark Durkan and I

:48:05. > :48:07.is that he will be tailgating because the STL P have abandoned

:48:08. > :48:11.power-sharing and opted out of government. We are in the

:48:12. > :48:15.government, we are the government of Northern Ireland. The Prime Minister

:48:16. > :48:19.has made clear we will be part of the UK negotiating team. Has

:48:20. > :48:23.specific label that work with the First Minister and a bit of First

:48:24. > :48:27.Minister going into the negotiations to represent Northern Ireland with

:48:28. > :48:34.mutually exclusive positions marked yellow we will have agreed position.

:48:35. > :48:41.How can you agree positions? The executive met this week and have

:48:42. > :48:45.commissioned, it took 45 minutes, if you let me explain, we have

:48:46. > :48:51.commissioned a team of senior civil servants to now begin to shape

:48:52. > :48:56.Northern Ireland's post Brexit position, and we have in each

:48:57. > :48:58.department commissioned civil servants to examine the petitions

:48:59. > :49:02.for those departments and we will bring all that together and have an

:49:03. > :49:06.agreed position for Northern Ireland, and the Northern Ireland

:49:07. > :49:10.Executive will take that forward in negotiations. Does that mean those

:49:11. > :49:15.departments will try to come up with a bespoke solution where we are half

:49:16. > :49:19.in half out examining the possibilities of fully leaving or

:49:20. > :49:23.partly remaining in, looking for special circumstances, or are they

:49:24. > :49:27.simply implementing a Brexit? No, we will make the case for the best deal

:49:28. > :49:32.we can get for Northern Ireland. What does that mean? I cannot give

:49:33. > :49:42.you the answer because negotiations have not begun, any more than I

:49:43. > :49:45.could give you the answer in 1997 to what the Good Friday Agreement would

:49:46. > :49:48.be. You can tell me it means the UK leaving. If I was talking to Martin

:49:49. > :49:52.McGuinness Sinn Fein they would say, it doesn't necessarily mean leave,

:49:53. > :49:56.it has to mean special circumstances and there is your difficulty. Let's

:49:57. > :50:01.look at the constitutional reality. Northern Ireland as part of the UK.

:50:02. > :50:05.There is no legal basis for Northern Ireland remaining within the EU

:50:06. > :50:09.while it is part of the UK, that is clear. The EU has said that, they

:50:10. > :50:13.said it to Scotland and Northern Ireland. We cannot negotiate a

:50:14. > :50:21.situation where we've Remain in the UK is out. How do you respond? No

:50:22. > :50:23.special circumstances, discussions happening but they are within the

:50:24. > :50:29.context of the UK leaving the EU. First of all, Jeffrey's reassurance

:50:30. > :50:32.to everybody is a team of Northern Ireland civil servants will now

:50:33. > :50:37.begin to shape Northern Ireland's future. That is the height of

:50:38. > :50:42.leadership we are getting from the DUP, who of course are at variance

:50:43. > :50:50.with the expressed... You are not even in the government stop it is

:50:51. > :50:55.clearly against the will of people in Northern Ireland. We are not part

:50:56. > :51:00.of the current administration because we took the option under

:51:01. > :51:05.arrangements we all agreed to in terms of an opposition option, and

:51:06. > :51:09.we took that after it became clear to us that in the negotiation, again

:51:10. > :51:13.we have a programme for government determined by the Northern Ireland

:51:14. > :51:17.civil service. We have civil servants, Jeffrey is telling us we

:51:18. > :51:23.should be calm because we will have more civil servants. Do you think it

:51:24. > :51:27.is possible for the First Minister and Deputy First Minister from the

:51:28. > :51:31.DUP and Sinn Fein to sit down and come up with some sort of solution

:51:32. > :51:36.that is ultimately in the best interests of everyone in Northern

:51:37. > :51:40.Ireland? No, first of all it isn't just about them, this was put to a

:51:41. > :51:44.referendum here of the people, all of the people of the North, and if

:51:45. > :51:48.we are to respect that will it shouldn't just be about the DUP and

:51:49. > :51:55.Sinn Fein or the first and Deputy First Minister will to work it out.

:51:56. > :51:59.We are talking about something more fundamental. Where is the SDLP in

:52:00. > :52:03.all this, because you are not in government, how do you play a part

:52:04. > :52:09.in this process? We have made it clear we believe the Irish

:52:10. > :52:13.government should bring a forum of all parties to talk about how we

:52:14. > :52:19.protect the precepts and promises of the Good Friday Agreement and how we

:52:20. > :52:24.move forward to protect all our options now. Does that help? Of

:52:25. > :52:28.course it doesn't. The Irish government is not a sovereign

:52:29. > :52:31.government of the UK. It will not be negotiating on behalf of Northern

:52:32. > :52:35.Ireland. It will be the UK Government and the Northern Ireland

:52:36. > :52:39.Executive will be part of that. But it may bring influence and some

:52:40. > :52:44.people will want it to influence discussions. They may do, but Colum

:52:45. > :52:50.Eastwood says he will do fall in his power to change the situation.

:52:51. > :52:54.Sorry, you have no power, you opted out, you abandoned power-sharing as

:52:55. > :53:00.did Mark and the SDLP, they are not in the government, with the greatest

:53:01. > :53:08.respect to Mark, someone I admire, but he will have no influence either

:53:09. > :53:12.at Westminster... Look at the mess the opposition is in. With the

:53:13. > :53:17.greatest respect the DUP is well placed, close to the people who

:53:18. > :53:20.would lead the negotiations, part of their campaign, we will have that

:53:21. > :53:25.influence, unlike the SDLP we will not run off to other countries to

:53:26. > :53:29.seek influence. We have it at Westminster. We will use that

:53:30. > :53:33.position, strong position given where the government is now and we

:53:34. > :53:37.will use it as the government of Northern Ireland. One sentence in

:53:38. > :53:49.response, Mark Durkan, Jeffrey Donaldson says you can forget about

:53:50. > :53:51.it, he is not interested in what the Irish government says. We are not

:53:52. > :53:53.running to other countries, we are saying all the parties that

:53:54. > :53:56.supported the Good Friday Agreement and led the Irish people's support

:53:57. > :53:57.for it have a duty now to protect what people voted for, North and

:53:58. > :53:58.South. We will leave it there. Let's hear what my guests

:53:59. > :54:02.of the day make of that. Allison Morris and Sheila Davidson

:54:03. > :54:09.are with me now. Allison, can you square the circle

:54:10. > :54:13.for us? That debate just basically replicated every other one we have

:54:14. > :54:18.heard for the last week, it seems obvious there is no plan B. We are

:54:19. > :54:25.told a team of civil servants will now begin trying to untangle this

:54:26. > :54:28.politically and economically. It is basically closing the stable door

:54:29. > :54:33.after the horse has bolted. Nobody knows what will happen. Those who

:54:34. > :54:37.voted to leave have questions to answer in terms of how you take an

:54:38. > :54:41.entire country into this position without any Plan B as to what

:54:42. > :54:45.happens afterwards. Sheila Davidson, does it matter that Northern Ireland

:54:46. > :54:50.voted differently from the UK generally, does it matter that some

:54:51. > :54:52.people want the Irish government involved in negotiations and

:54:53. > :54:56.conversations? It matters to the people who feel that but it doesn't

:54:57. > :55:00.constitutionally matter. At the end of the day we voted as the United

:55:01. > :55:04.Kingdom and this is what we got. I speak as somebody who voted Remain

:55:05. > :55:11.but at the end of the day we have what we have. I am most fascinated

:55:12. > :55:14.by this being a position where politics are managed in real life.

:55:15. > :55:18.The invocations are in business decisions taken today and tomorrow,

:55:19. > :55:22.not in the autumn or in two years, the decisions will be taking at the

:55:23. > :55:27.highest levels of business, whether they invest in Northern Ireland or

:55:28. > :55:31.Ireland. Will we see, and for once I find myself listening to Mike

:55:32. > :55:37.Nesbitt in agreement, we could potentially see an economic united

:55:38. > :55:41.Ireland heading towards something that nobody anticipated. That is

:55:42. > :55:46.something I think we need to be debating as well as the political

:55:47. > :55:50.agreement. Realistically, are we spectators as far as this ongoing

:55:51. > :55:55.political sport is concerned, are we any more than that, can we? There

:55:56. > :55:58.has to be some influence, but the Irish government will have more

:55:59. > :56:03.influence than as a EU member states in negotiations -- no more

:56:04. > :56:04.influence. We have had a vote and that is democracy. We will speak you

:56:05. > :56:06.again later the programme. Thanks for now, and let's pause

:56:07. > :56:09.for a moment to take a look back at the political week gone past

:56:10. > :56:24.in 60 Seconds with Stephen Walker. The fallout from Brexit was the only

:56:25. > :56:28.show in town. What we need to do is stand back and say what we are doing

:56:29. > :56:31.is representing all the people of Northern Ireland. The number one

:56:32. > :56:36.priority given the nature of the decision taken last week is to

:56:37. > :56:42.ensure we maintain our relationship with Europe. This decision has been

:56:43. > :56:47.made, the people of the UK have decided to leave the EU and that

:56:48. > :56:51.decision will be respected. In Brussels, passions were high. What

:56:52. > :56:56.we need to do now is accept the result of the referendum. We stand

:56:57. > :57:00.by the vote of the people of the Northern Ireland. While at home

:57:01. > :57:05.there were calls for calm. The referendum is over and there is no

:57:06. > :57:09.point arguing about it. It is over and people have spoken. The question

:57:10. > :57:13.of leadership dominated Westminster, Boris Johnson are no-go and Labour

:57:14. > :57:18.turmoil continued. Some are not keen to leave the EU just yet as

:57:19. > :57:24.applications for Irish passports flawed. -- grew massively.

:57:25. > :57:28.Well, the turmoil we saw there in both the Conservative

:57:29. > :57:30.and Labour parties has arisen directly out of the referendum

:57:31. > :57:32.result, and while there's a leadership battle in the Tories,

:57:33. > :57:34.it's a lot less clear what's happening with

:57:35. > :57:38.But while the intrigue is playing out in and around London,

:57:39. > :57:40.members here may have decisions to make soon enough, too.

:57:41. > :57:42.With me is the local Conservative Neil Wilson,

:57:43. > :57:54.Good morning to you both, thanks for joining us. Neil Wilson, House of

:57:55. > :57:59.Cards seems almost tame in comparison to the real-life

:58:00. > :58:04.backstabbing going on in your party at the moment. Indeed, it has been

:58:05. > :58:09.an interesting election up till this point. Nobody really saw this

:58:10. > :58:12.coming. There is no doubt in my mind that we have five excellent

:58:13. > :58:18.candidates, Michael Gove would have been a brilliant one, but at the

:58:19. > :58:23.moment it's not clear whether he can recover from this. So you will have

:58:24. > :58:28.a vote as a local member. Ultimately, it's up to be MPs to

:58:29. > :58:32.decide which two names go forward to the party membership. Who would you

:58:33. > :58:37.like to see succeed David Cameron? Five candidates, all great, great

:58:38. > :58:43.diversity of backgrounds, no one who went to Eton for a change. It is up

:58:44. > :58:47.to MPs for the final two, it looks like Theresa May and another,

:58:48. > :58:50.increasingly like that will be Andrea Leadsom. If that is the case

:58:51. > :58:57.I will back the candidate that is not to reason me. Is that because

:58:58. > :59:01.Theresa May was a Remain campaigner and you were a Leave campaigner? It

:59:02. > :59:06.is only right that with the outcome being as it was, someone genuinely

:59:07. > :59:08.believing the UK should lead the EU is the right person to take the

:59:09. > :59:14.country forward through the next couple of years up until 2020. Are

:59:15. > :59:21.you disappointed Boris Johnson is not there? Boris, I suppose, we'll

:59:22. > :59:26.never know -- we will never know how that would have worked out. Michael

:59:27. > :59:31.Gove may have had his reasons. As you say, as cards, we never know why

:59:32. > :59:36.that is going on. Kathryn Johnson, no relation to Boris presumably!

:59:37. > :59:41.Although he does follow me on Twitter! QR honoured! A lot of his

:59:42. > :59:46.time on his hands now. The one time your party could have taken

:59:47. > :59:51.advantage of the Tories in meltdown, you hit the self-destruct button.

:59:52. > :59:59.Before we get onto that, you heard the Tory party -- compared it to has

:00:00. > :00:04.a cards, it is more like the Borders at the moment. To get onto the

:00:05. > :00:11.Labour Party, it you are right. We cannot forget the murder of Jo Cox

:00:12. > :00:14.in the run-up to the referendum. She was murdered by someone allegedly

:00:15. > :00:21.referencing Britain First, and that is who we should focus our time and

:00:22. > :00:27.attention on, Britain First, the Tories, Ukip and hear the DUP.

:00:28. > :00:31.Instead of fighting a nasty little battle that spearheaded by the

:00:32. > :00:35.Parliamentary Labour Party. So you regret the fact that you have this

:00:36. > :00:39.leadership challenge happening, presumably, within the Labour Party,

:00:40. > :00:43.you would like to see Corbyn stay and no discussion about leadership?

:00:44. > :00:47.I would like to see a return to party democracy. It is simple, I

:00:48. > :00:57.voted for Andy Burnham, not Jeremy, but at the same time, the mass of

:00:58. > :00:59.the membership, a fantastic amount of our members voted for Jeremy

:01:00. > :01:02.Corbyn. The democratic process must be observed. It is simple, it is

:01:03. > :01:06.like the ABC of politics. Just to be clear, that means he shouldn't be

:01:07. > :01:10.challenged? I am not saying he shouldn't be challenged. The

:01:11. > :01:15.challenge is part of the democratic process, but at the moment Jeremy

:01:16. > :01:19.Corbyn, if he resigns as the PLP want him to do, after putting

:01:20. > :01:23.disgraceful pressure on him, he will not be on the incoming leadership

:01:24. > :01:28.ballot. That is not democratic. But you know and I know and I would have

:01:29. > :01:40.thought many people know the reason, apparently, the PLP is acting how it

:01:41. > :01:42.is is that there could be a snap election and the Labour Party going

:01:43. > :01:44.into that election campaign led by Jeremy Corbyn could potentially face

:01:45. > :01:48.wipe-out. That is the argument whether you agree or not, so the

:01:49. > :01:50.reason the PLP want to get rid of the Corbyn is they don't believe he

:01:51. > :01:53.can successfully lead the party in a battle with the Tories in the

:01:54. > :01:58.country. Is that not sensible, to plan ahead for that eventuality? I

:01:59. > :02:02.am afraid to say when you look at the carry on in Westminster at the

:02:03. > :02:07.moment and the behaviour of the PLP, I haven't seen a credible candidate

:02:08. > :02:13.to challenge Jeremy Corbyn yet. I'm not sure what way I would vote in a

:02:14. > :02:20.leadership election, but it is a free vote and every member will have

:02:21. > :02:23.a vote. Neill, what do you make of what Michael Gove had to say about

:02:24. > :02:29.the Good Friday Agreement? He wrote a paper about it more than ten years

:02:30. > :02:33.ago where he was very critical of it. He was asked about that on

:02:34. > :02:36.Andrew Marr this morning and was uncomfortable I think about some of

:02:37. > :02:42.the things he said at the time, talked about the wickedness and the

:02:43. > :02:46.lies we were told, that it was bad politics effectively, does that make

:02:47. > :02:52.you uncomfortable? Not particularly but the impetuous nature of youth

:02:53. > :02:56.sometimes, as people begin in their political careers, they perhaps

:02:57. > :03:01.write things that in power they would not necessarily follow through

:03:02. > :03:04.with. Capri Laois and to violence, a validation of terrorism --

:03:05. > :03:08.capitulation to violence -- he didn't mince his words. Many people

:03:09. > :03:12.in Northern Ireland would share that view so I don't think you could

:03:13. > :03:15.write that off that Michael Gove as Prime Minister would necessarily go

:03:16. > :03:21.along with the following of that view. As you say he seemed reticent

:03:22. > :03:22.to confirm that belief today. Thanks both very much indeed.

:03:23. > :03:24.Let's have a final word with my guests of the day,

:03:25. > :03:35.Sheila, are you still a Conservative, you were a

:03:36. > :03:42.Conservative, just to check, it's a bit of a mess, isn't it? I think

:03:43. > :03:46.actually the very idea that nobody realised David Cameron on the Leave

:03:47. > :03:51.boat would not stay is an indicator of what messed up situation at all

:03:52. > :03:55.is. The fact remains that we may get another woman Prime Minister out of

:03:56. > :03:59.this, and for me I am up for that weather Theresa May or Andrea

:04:00. > :04:03.Leadsom, I think they are both impressive leaders. What you make of

:04:04. > :04:07.it? It is such a shame that Labour has imploded in this way, because

:04:08. > :04:10.never have we needed a strong opposition as much as this last week

:04:11. > :04:18.and instead of concentrating on that and holding the Levers to account,

:04:19. > :04:23.we have this petty squabble, and regardless, as Kathryn said, of what

:04:24. > :04:26.the PLP thing, Jeremy Corbyn has a huge following in the leadership so

:04:27. > :04:31.it will not be as simple as putting pressure on him to get him out the

:04:32. > :04:36.door, it will be a mess. Party membership is not the same as the

:04:37. > :04:40.country supporting it, and I have observed Jeremy Corbyn looking at as

:04:41. > :04:44.the leader at all but like he is being led by a coterie around him

:04:45. > :04:50.taking him off by his collar of stage. A leader -- as a leader he is

:04:51. > :04:51.not getting an opportunity to lead, and that is a problem.

:04:52. > :04:52.not getting an opportunity to lead, you have heard him loud and clear. I

:04:53. > :04:54.hope you are reported to Theresa May.

:04:55. > :05:00.That's all we have time for. Back to Andrew.

:05:01. > :05:02.Let's return to Labour's travails now, and we're joined now from Hull

:05:03. > :05:09.by the former deputy leader of the Labour Party, John Prescott.

:05:10. > :05:17.Earlier in this programme am a Barry Gardiner, a member of the Shadow

:05:18. > :05:20.Cabinet, said that what was needed was an honest broker to resolve the

:05:21. > :05:25.issue between Mr Corbyn and the parliamentary party and the party in

:05:26. > :05:31.the country. He named you as a potential honest broker. Are you up

:05:32. > :05:36.for it? I'm amazed. He twists and turns every 24 hours. And all of a

:05:37. > :05:40.sudden, when I appear on your programme, I am told I am to be the

:05:41. > :05:46.honest broker. There is no doubt that I love my party, the Labour

:05:47. > :05:50.Party. I would always do whatever was helpful. But simply because I

:05:51. > :05:53.had a few negotiating with is with Gordon and Tony, it's not an easy

:05:54. > :05:59.proposition. You have to have the will, and the Will this time must

:06:00. > :06:04.be, can we avoid the disaster we are heading to and the talk of civil war

:06:05. > :06:10.and separate parties? You can't have that. We must do everything to stop

:06:11. > :06:18.it. Is that a note to being honest broker? You can take on a thing from

:06:19. > :06:22.that. I am just amazed to hear it. It wouldn't just be one person, it

:06:23. > :06:26.would have to be a group of people are thinking about how you deal with

:06:27. > :06:29.the real problems. The MPs have concerns about selections which they

:06:30. > :06:33.have been that and with. There is concern about what the negotiating

:06:34. > :06:38.position will be an about the leadership. When I listen to the

:06:39. > :06:44.programmes again, Neil Kinnock and others, whether you can go ahead

:06:45. > :06:48.without an election. I am a believer and I fought hard for one member,

:06:49. > :06:53.one vote to involve the ordinary members. That is why I persuaded

:06:54. > :06:57.people to vote for Jeremy, let the party make the decision. I didn't

:06:58. > :07:03.vote for him. I didn't think he was the leader I wanted. But the party

:07:04. > :07:08.did speak. What has changed now is one member, one vote. The

:07:09. > :07:12.Parliamentary party has its position. It used to originally

:07:13. > :07:18.elect the leader. We changed that and went out to the members. Surely

:07:19. > :07:21.if you want an election, use the proper procedure, get the names of

:07:22. > :07:28.the MPs for the nominations and have an election. I hope we don't. I hope

:07:29. > :07:34.Angela and Owen Smith don't go into an election, because that will take

:07:35. > :07:41.the fight closer to civil war. If Mr Corbyn is challenged, is it your

:07:42. > :07:44.view that as the incumbent, as the existing leader of the Labour Party,

:07:45. > :07:50.he has a right to be on the ballot paper automatically? I hear what the

:07:51. > :07:55.lawyers they about that. I say this. If you want to challenge the leader

:07:56. > :08:00.of the Labour Party, then you get the names of the MPs and a

:08:01. > :08:10.nomination list and have a vote. But since he is the incumbent, and if he

:08:11. > :08:15.is being challenged rather than stepping down, whatever the lawyers

:08:16. > :08:22.say, would he not have a right to be on the ballot paper? I believe if he

:08:23. > :08:26.can get sufficient names from the PLP, which is the rule under our

:08:27. > :08:32.situation, then he is entitled to be on it. The argument as to whether

:08:33. > :08:36.because he was the leader before is a legal one, personally, if you are

:08:37. > :08:41.going to have an election, and I hope we don't, that is the only way

:08:42. > :08:48.to sort it out. Otherwise you have a divided party. So he would still

:08:49. > :08:53.need to get the names as well. Those are the rules we have. But why

:08:54. > :08:58.haven't the names being put up before now? On this occasion, they

:08:59. > :09:03.hoped they could shake him down. They hoped he would resign

:09:04. > :09:08.voluntarily. I think many MPs were convinced that was the road forward.

:09:09. > :09:12.Well, it hasn't turned out that way and the man intends to stand in the

:09:13. > :09:16.election. In my view, follow the processes of the party and get the

:09:17. > :09:21.names of supporters to enter the list. If he is not challenged and

:09:22. > :09:29.remains as leader of the Labour Party, what evidence is there that

:09:30. > :09:34.he will get better at the job? Well, I didn't vote for Jeremy for some of

:09:35. > :09:40.these reasons. From when he started to now, he has been improving. But I

:09:41. > :09:44.do accept that a lot of people are not convinced. He doesn't have the

:09:45. > :09:48.pension you sometimes need. I scream and shout, as you know, from time to

:09:49. > :09:52.time. They don't doubt that he believes what he is saying, but a

:09:53. > :09:56.leader has to reach across the party. I don't think Jeremy has done

:09:57. > :10:00.that. There are people in the party who have declared war on him from

:10:01. > :10:05.the first day of his election, let's be honest. He has got to improve.

:10:06. > :10:11.The party has to recognise the road it has embarked upon, or the PLP.

:10:12. > :10:17.And we need to prevent civil war. It would be disastrous for us. I sat in

:10:18. > :10:23.the Labour Party when it was the SDP and they put us out for 18 years. Is

:10:24. > :10:28.that what we want again? Is that our answer to the people screaming out

:10:29. > :10:32.to tackle this Tory government? Follow the constitution. Have an

:10:33. > :10:38.election if you have to, although I hope we don't have to. I hope Angela

:10:39. > :10:43.and Owen will not stand. I tried to advise a week ago to take more time

:10:44. > :10:48.to think about it. I think the MPs should go away and think about it

:10:49. > :10:54.over the holiday and come back and remember that the party once asked

:10:55. > :10:59.to resent a good case against this Tory government, or people will

:11:00. > :11:06.suffer. We cannot stand on the side, wringing our hands. Play it

:11:07. > :11:09.together. I understand that rallying call, but if there isn't an election

:11:10. > :11:16.or if there is but Mr Corbyn remains as leader, surely the situation is a

:11:17. > :11:20.leader who doesn't have the confidence of 80% of the

:11:21. > :11:26.parliamentary party. That is not sustainable. I understand that and

:11:27. > :11:33.it is a proper question. But listening to all the arguments over

:11:34. > :11:42.the last few weeks and in the PLP, I wonder if every MP would feel the

:11:43. > :11:46.same if we embarked upon a new party, isolating itself from the

:11:47. > :11:53.membership. If they do that, I wonder if you would keep the same

:11:54. > :11:57.vote. MPs have to look at themselves and say, let us get behind the guy

:11:58. > :12:01.or get rid of him, but get rid of him in the proper way. Most thought

:12:02. > :12:06.he would resign. It hasn't happened, so let's think through the

:12:07. > :12:10.consequences and avoid that civil war and deserting our own people in

:12:11. > :12:15.fighting against Tories. You wrote this morning that the last time

:12:16. > :12:19.Labour split, the gang of four in the 1980s, you ended up in

:12:20. > :12:23.opposition for 18 years. When you look at the situation at the moment,

:12:24. > :12:30.it is possible that split or un-split, if things continue the way

:12:31. > :12:39.they do, you would be in opposition for 18 years. That is a possibility.

:12:40. > :12:44.There are misconceptions people had. Many in the PLP assumed this man

:12:45. > :12:48.should go. OK, they expressed their opinion. But they thought he would

:12:49. > :12:53.just go quietly. That hasn't happened. If you go along this road

:12:54. > :12:58.and have another election, we are embarking upon those who are already

:12:59. > :13:02.talking about a separate PLP party, separated from the members. Blimey,

:13:03. > :13:07.think twice before you go down that road. We now it will be four years

:13:08. > :13:15.before the next election. Let's have more common sense. Remember, it's a

:13:16. > :13:19.whole party. One final question, not wishing to make you more gloomy.

:13:20. > :13:23.Isn't there a chance of things getting worse before they get

:13:24. > :13:29.better? We have the Chilcot report coming on Wednesday and we are being

:13:30. > :13:32.told that a number of leading Labour people, perhaps even Mr Corbyn

:13:33. > :13:42.himself, will brand Tony Blair is a war criminal. That can only make

:13:43. > :13:48.things worse, can't it? I agree. It will make it worse, whatever they

:13:49. > :13:53.say. That is more the reason why bitter division in the PLP can only

:13:54. > :13:57.be made worse by angry statements about Iraq. We got it wrong on Iraq.

:13:58. > :14:05.Most people now recognise that, and a terrible price was paid. I cannot

:14:06. > :14:09.absolve myself from that. I sat in that cabinet. We can have a proper

:14:10. > :14:14.debate, but keep it less personal. Let's learn the lessons and avoid

:14:15. > :14:19.such a terrible situation, although frankly, we have been in other wars

:14:20. > :14:21.since then with the same feeling prevailing. John Prescott, thank you

:14:22. > :14:30.for being with us today. Helen, what is happening? The one

:14:31. > :14:33.thing I was missing there is a plan for what happens next. It is

:14:34. > :14:38.unlikely that people who have exited the Shadow Cabinet are going to go

:14:39. > :14:44.back into it. So if you are a Jeremy Corbyn supporter, what do you want?

:14:45. > :14:47.If you accept that there is no way, and that is what the negotiations

:14:48. > :14:51.are about, could you have an automatic place on the next ballot

:14:52. > :14:55.or would you have an agreement that someone like Clive Lewis would get

:14:56. > :15:00.onto next ballot? That would require Jeremy Corbyn to stand down. Yes, so

:15:01. > :15:03.if Corbyn stands again, it looks like he would win again with the

:15:04. > :15:06.members and there would be such a loss of hatred that the idea of

:15:07. > :15:11.anyone who ran against him that it would splinter the party. Chris

:15:12. > :15:14.Bryant was saying he didn't think it was a shoe in order that he would

:15:15. > :15:19.necessarily win with the members again. That is because there is

:15:20. > :15:23.polling that shows that support for Corbyn has slid backward. The polls

:15:24. > :15:28.put him against the other likely challengers and he beat all of them,

:15:29. > :15:32.but there was a sense in the vote that there were some who really

:15:33. > :15:35.wanted Jeremy Corbyn, but there were some who just didn't like the others

:15:36. > :15:39.and wanted something different. If there were a plausible person who

:15:40. > :15:44.was not Corbyn, they might go for that person. It was interesting that

:15:45. > :15:49.Don Prescott said that even if you are the incumbent -- John Prescott

:15:50. > :15:55.said that even if you are the income -- incumbent, you need the requisite

:15:56. > :15:59.number of MPs. That is hugely debated at the moment. It might go

:16:00. > :16:04.to the courts. That is all Labour bid now, for the Labour to be

:16:05. > :16:07.involved. They are between a rock and a hard place. Whether it is

:16:08. > :16:13.Clive Lewis or John Donald rather than Jeremy Corbyn versus Angela

:16:14. > :16:17.Eagle or whoever, the two tribes are now so far away from each other that

:16:18. > :16:21.the rubber band of the Labour Party has broken. We are now looking at

:16:22. > :16:25.two political parties eventually. It may take three months or three

:16:26. > :16:31.years, but I cannot see how those two wings can reconcile themselves.

:16:32. > :16:38.If Tom is right, the battle is who takes possession of the Labour

:16:39. > :16:43.brand. As a brand, it is more powerful than the conservative brand

:16:44. > :16:48.in some ways. And who has that brand automatically get at least 20% of

:16:49. > :16:53.the votes. It comes with the name. It does, but what is the brand? That

:16:54. > :16:57.is what goes to the heart of what this debate is about. There are a

:16:58. > :17:00.couple of other points. All credit to John Prescott for at least

:17:01. > :17:05.acknowledging that if this goes on, Labour could be out for another 18

:17:06. > :17:10.years. But what about these 40 MPs who are propping up Corbyn at the

:17:11. > :17:15.moment? I don't think enough scrutiny is being given to them. At

:17:16. > :17:21.the end of the day, if they haemorrhaged away, Corbyn would have

:17:22. > :17:29.nobody left. I can't understand why very experienced senior figures like

:17:30. > :17:33.Andy Burnham are still helping him. That was the point Chris Bryant was

:17:34. > :17:37.making. Some of them apparently tried very hard to resign last week

:17:38. > :17:40.or tell Jeremy Corbyn they would if he didn't go, but they are now

:17:41. > :17:48.incapable of resigning cos he will not see them. There is a parallel to

:17:49. > :17:52.Article 50, which is Jeremy Corbyn's own article 50. As soon he stands

:17:53. > :17:59.down, he loses a lot of his bargaining ability. But what is the

:18:00. > :18:06.mood on the left of the Labour Party? Is it to stick it out with

:18:07. > :18:10.Jeremy Corbyn, or is it to accept that that is not working and get

:18:11. > :18:17.someone else from a more credible left-wing leader into place? My

:18:18. > :18:22.sense is that it is fracturing. You will end up with a rump of people

:18:23. > :18:25.who just want Jeremy Corbyn, they don't care about anything else. They

:18:26. > :18:29.joined to vote for him and they will leave the party when he goes. But

:18:30. > :18:36.there is a bigger group of people who want somebody who they feel is

:18:37. > :18:42.authentically left wing, but they are not wedded to it being Corbyn.

:18:43. > :18:47.That is what is changing. There has been bleeding of support from Corbyn

:18:48. > :18:56.himself. But also, the extent to which Corbyn is being propped up by

:18:57. > :19:10.a few figures, I am hearing that he wants to go but is being forced to

:19:11. > :19:15.stay. Do we know if that is true? People around him are saying, if you

:19:16. > :19:22.go, Alec experiment about this part of the party being in charge will be

:19:23. > :19:26.destroyed. Do you agree with that? I wonder. If you are the leader of a

:19:27. > :19:38.political party and you want to go, you go. Every time Jeremy Corbyn

:19:39. > :19:43.turns up at a rally in Parliamentary 's -- Parliament Square with

:19:44. > :19:48.thousands screaming for him, it makes him feel good and gives him

:19:49. > :19:53.hope. It makes him think that, I know it looks bad, but there are

:19:54. > :19:57.still people who love me. There is also a genuine principle thing,

:19:58. > :20:01.which is that he was elected by people who were not represent by the

:20:02. > :20:05.Labour Party as it was, and he feels a sense of responsibility to them.

:20:06. > :20:12.And with Chilcot coming out on Wednesday morning, it can only make

:20:13. > :20:15.it worse. Absolutely. There is a lot of speculation at Westminster that

:20:16. > :20:15.Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on until

:20:16. > :20:17.Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on Jeremy Corbyn is only holding on

:20:18. > :20:21.until then so that he can stand up in the House of Commons and say that

:20:22. > :20:27.Tony Blair should be tried for war crimes. Possibly, he wants his big

:20:28. > :20:35.moment and will disappear after that. Or he may get reinvigorated by

:20:36. > :20:42.it. This is fascinating. All those people who are saying Jeremy should

:20:43. > :20:50.go, he was the position to Tony Blair within his own party -- he was

:20:51. > :20:53.the opposition. What are we going to learn from Chilcot? That Tony Blair

:20:54. > :20:58.got it wrong? They're zealots on both sides who will want to fight

:20:59. > :21:02.this out. Whether we learn anything or not is another matter. I suggest

:21:03. > :21:12.it is fuel on the Labour fire. But it doesn't change the positions we

:21:13. > :21:15.know will be confirmed. But if the leader of the Labour opposition

:21:16. > :21:19.calls on a former neighbour Prime Minister to be treated as a war

:21:20. > :21:26.criminal, that is history in anybody's books. That is one thing

:21:27. > :21:31.keeping the Labour Party avoided, the mistakes over Iraq. People are

:21:32. > :21:32.in one camp or the other. We shall leave it there.

:21:33. > :21:37.The Daily Politics is on all next week on BBC Two.

:21:38. > :21:42.I'm back here next Sunday at 11am on BBC One.

:21:43. > :21:51.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.