:00:39. > :00:51.Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. It began as
:00:52. > :00:56.Plebgate, now it is Plodgate. The evidence of three police officers to
:00:57. > :01:00.MPs is branded a great work of fiction. They tried to intimidate
:01:01. > :01:05.the Grangemouth bosses, but in the end it was the union that
:01:06. > :01:10.capitulated. I will ask Len McCluskey about Unite union's strong
:01:11. > :01:15.arm tactics at Grangemouth and Falkirk. They preach women should be
:01:16. > :01:17.sidelined and confined to the private sphere. They argued they
:01:18. > :01:30.should be covered up. And she'll: We talked to some of
:01:31. > :01:33.those who have been at the table this week and ask what the chances
:01:34. > :01:41.investing thousands of pounds in a GPS tracking system to keep tabs on
:01:42. > :01:48.its staff. With me as always, the best and the
:01:49. > :01:52.brightest political panel, Helen Lewis, Janan Ganesh and Nick Watt
:01:53. > :01:55.who will be tweeting their humiliating climb-down is what they
:01:56. > :02:02.got wrong last week in the programme. If this can happen it to
:02:03. > :02:06.a Cabinet minister, what hope is there for anyone else? Thus the Home
:02:07. > :02:10.Affairs Select Committee concluded what many already thought about the
:02:11. > :02:14.treatment of Andrew Mitchell by three self-styled PC plebs. They met
:02:15. > :02:19.him to clear the air over what did or did not happen when he was
:02:20. > :02:23.prevented from ramming his bike through the Downing Street gates.
:02:24. > :02:30.But the officers gave the media and inaccurate account of that meeting.
:02:31. > :02:33.Two of them are even accused of misleading the Commons committee.
:02:34. > :02:38.The Independent Police Complaints Commission will now reopen there
:02:39. > :02:44.enquiry. This is not a story about Andrew Mitchell, it is about the
:02:45. > :02:48.police. Keith Vaz is often in high dudgeon and this is the highest dad
:02:49. > :02:52.and I have seen him in for some time. They could be held for
:02:53. > :02:57.contempt of Parliament and technically they could be sent to
:02:58. > :03:01.prison. It has blown up into an enormous story. I do not know what
:03:02. > :03:06.is worse, the police trying to stitch up a Cabinet member and try
:03:07. > :03:14.to mislead the media or the incompetence they have done it from
:03:15. > :03:19.day one. That is quite good. I would sleep more soundly at night if I
:03:20. > :03:25.knew the pleas were good at this. It is the incompetence that shocks me.
:03:26. > :03:28.And this is just a sideshow. We are still waiting on the main report as
:03:29. > :03:34.to what exactly happened outside Downing Street gates. But that not
:03:35. > :03:39.will be good for the police either. The file has gone from the
:03:40. > :03:43.Metropolitan police to the CPS, so we are limited about what we can
:03:44. > :03:49.say. This is about the police Federation. They were set up under
:03:50. > :03:55.statute in 1990 as a deal in which a police would not go on strike. This
:03:56. > :03:58.is a political campaign to get a Cabinet minister out and the legacy
:03:59. > :04:05.of this is the police Federation will have to be reformed. We will
:04:06. > :04:11.keep an eye on it. They were Ed Miliband's union backers, they swung
:04:12. > :04:16.the Labour leadership for him in 2010. Now the Unite union looks like
:04:17. > :04:19.his biggest headache. The Sunday Times has seen extracts of the
:04:20. > :04:26.report into the alleged vote rigging to select a Labour candidate in
:04:27. > :04:29.Falkirk. There was evidence of coercion and Gregory as well as
:04:30. > :04:35.deliberate attempt to frustrate the enquiry. We will be speaking to Len
:04:36. > :04:41.McCluskey, the Unite union's General Secretary, in a moment. First out
:04:42. > :04:46.the saga began an almost ended up with the loss of 800 jobs at a
:04:47. > :04:50.petrochemical plant in Grangemouth. Unite were key players in the
:04:51. > :04:55.Grangemouth dispute and the union headed by Len McCluskey has come
:04:56. > :04:59.under fire for its intimidator Tariq tactics. In one instance
:05:00. > :05:05.demonstrators complete with an inflatable rat picketed the home of
:05:06. > :05:11.a INEOS director. The police were called. It was part of a strategy
:05:12. > :05:16.the union called leverage. But turning up at people's houses seems
:05:17. > :05:22.to represent an escalation. At the centre of the rout was Steve in
:05:23. > :05:27.deals -- Stephen Denes. INEOS launched an investigation into him
:05:28. > :05:32.as he was suspected of using company time to engineer the selection of
:05:33. > :05:39.labour's candidate in Falkirk. That candidate was Karie Murphy, a friend
:05:40. > :05:45.of Len McCluskey. Stevie Deans resigned last week and denies any
:05:46. > :05:55.wrongdoing, but it capped a dramatic climb-down by Unite union. Len
:05:56. > :06:00.McCluskey joins me now. Thanks to the Sunday Times we now know what is
:06:01. > :06:08.in this labour report on the Falkirk vote rigging. Forgery, coercion,
:06:09. > :06:14.trickery, manipulation. You must be ashamed of how Unite union behaved
:06:15. > :06:20.in Falkirk. The Sunday Times article is lazy journalism. There is nothing
:06:21. > :06:24.new in the article. This was all dealt with by the Labour Party in
:06:25. > :06:29.the summer. We rejected those allegations then and we said we had
:06:30. > :06:33.done nothing wrong and both the Labour Party and the police in
:06:34. > :06:39.Scotland indicated there had been no wrongdoing. The report itself says
:06:40. > :06:44.you were trying to thwart the investigation. First you tried to
:06:45. > :06:48.fix the selection of a candidate to get your woman in and then you
:06:49. > :06:54.thwarted the investigation into the dirty deeds. The reality is the
:06:55. > :07:01.Labour Party report was deeply flawed. The Labour Party then
:07:02. > :07:05.instructed a solicitor, a lawyer, to do an in-depth investigation and
:07:06. > :07:09.during that investigation they got to the bottom of what had happened
:07:10. > :07:14.and they decided there was no wrongdoing whatsoever. At the time I
:07:15. > :07:20.was so confident we had done nothing, I called for an independent
:07:21. > :07:24.enquiry. They were forced to conclude there was no wrongdoing
:07:25. > :07:29.because the people who originally complained changed their evidence
:07:30. > :07:34.and we now know they did so because Unite union officials helped them to
:07:35. > :07:40.rewrite their retraction and Stevie Deans approved it. That is not true.
:07:41. > :07:48.We have had 1000 e-mails thrown into the public arena and what is that
:07:49. > :07:55.all about? Who is leaking this? They showed the Unite union was rewriting
:07:56. > :08:00.the retractions. This interview would go a lot better if you are
:08:01. > :08:08.allowed me to finish the question that you asked. These e-mails were
:08:09. > :08:12.put into the public arena by the PR company from INEOS. Why are they
:08:13. > :08:17.doing this? The truth of the matter is that all of the investigations
:08:18. > :08:22.that took place demonstrate there was nothing to answer. This idea
:08:23. > :08:27.that the Unite union has rewritten and the evidence from the families
:08:28. > :08:36.has been withdrawn, the families are a part of Stevie deems' family. They
:08:37. > :08:40.clarified the position. Do you deny that union officials were involved
:08:41. > :08:47.in the retractions? I deny it completely. This is important.
:08:48. > :08:51.Independent solicitors to witness statements from the family and they
:08:52. > :08:59.are the ones that were influencing the Labour Party with the position
:09:00. > :09:07.is clarified and there is no case to answer. Do you deny Stevie deems saw
:09:08. > :09:15.their retractions? It is his family. So you do not deny it? It is his
:09:16. > :09:19.family. This is an ordinary, decent family who were faced with the full
:09:20. > :09:26.weight of the pleas, a forensic solicitor. Of course they spoke to
:09:27. > :09:32.Stevie Deans. This whole thing is a cesspit. Does it not need an
:09:33. > :09:37.independent investigation? This is a trap being laid by Tory Central
:09:38. > :09:44.office. They are making all the demands. The media, the Daily Mail,
:09:45. > :09:48.the Sunday Times, the Conservative mouthpiece, they are laying tracks
:09:49. > :09:56.for Ed Miliband and Ed Miliband should not fall into them. Since
:09:57. > :10:05.when did it become part of an industrial dispute to send mobs to
:10:06. > :10:13.the home of company families. This is a legitimate form of protest and
:10:14. > :10:17.it is a silent protest. We believe if faceless directors are making
:10:18. > :10:23.decisions that cripple communities, they cannot expect to simply drift
:10:24. > :10:32.back to their own leafy suburbia and not be countable. This is silent
:10:33. > :10:36.protest. It is lawful. It may be silent in Grangemouth, but it was
:10:37. > :10:42.not silent elsewhere. You went with a giant rat, loud-hailers telling
:10:43. > :10:50.everybody the neighbour was evil. No, we did not. You had
:10:51. > :10:58.loud-hailers, you even encouraged passing children in Grangemouth to
:10:59. > :11:05.join in. That is nonsense. Look at the rat. The reality is the
:11:06. > :11:11.Grangemouth community was going to be decimated, Grangemouth was going
:11:12. > :11:15.to become a ghost town. I reject totally this idea there were
:11:16. > :11:22.loud-hailers and children involved. That is a lie perpetrated by the
:11:23. > :11:28.Daily Mail. But you have used these tactics in other disputes. We have
:11:29. > :11:34.used the tactics in other disputes, but we have not used loud-hailers at
:11:35. > :11:39.people's homes. Because the labour laws are so restrictive we have to
:11:40. > :11:46.look at every available means that we can protest. It is an outrage, an
:11:47. > :11:49.absolute outrage, that this is happening to British workers in the
:11:50. > :11:57.21st-century. It could not happen elsewhere. Is not intimidation the
:11:58. > :12:02.wider hallmark of your union? You were quoted as saying to do whatever
:12:03. > :12:10.it takes during your attempts to take over the Labour Falkirk
:12:11. > :12:19.constituency. You were instructing to dig out the nasty stuff on your
:12:20. > :12:25.opponents. That is not true. Let's see these e-mails? This is a con
:12:26. > :12:32.trick. Nobody is looking to dig out... This is the words of your
:12:33. > :12:37.legal services advisor. Unite has tried to instigate a revival of
:12:38. > :12:42.trade union values within the Labour Party. That is what Ed Miliband
:12:43. > :12:46.wanted us to do. As soon as we started to be in any way
:12:47. > :12:52.ineffective, there were screams and howls of derision. When the company
:12:53. > :12:57.started to investigate Stevie Deans, your friend, your campaign manager,
:12:58. > :13:03.that he was using company time to moonlight on the job, you called
:13:04. > :13:08.INEOS and said unless you stop the investigation we will bring
:13:09. > :13:15.Grangemouth to a standstill. I never said that at all. You brought it to
:13:16. > :13:23.a standstill. We never brought it to a standstill, the company did. Who
:13:24. > :13:28.says that I said that we would bring it to a standstill? You have read it
:13:29. > :13:34.in the newspapers. You should not believe everything. I did not make
:13:35. > :13:37.that threat to the management. You carried the threat out. You
:13:38. > :13:45.instigated an overtime ban and a work to rule. And that is what
:13:46. > :13:50.Grangemouth to a standstill because the company decided to close the
:13:51. > :13:56.petrochemical site down. Because Stevie Deans was suspended due
:13:57. > :14:03.introduced industrial action? Our members in Grangemouth felt he was
:14:04. > :14:07.being unfairly treated. In the end you're grandstanding almost cost
:14:08. > :14:13.Scotland is most important industrial facility. The day was
:14:14. > :14:17.saved by your total capitulation. Grandstanding, capitulation and
:14:18. > :14:26.humiliation are grand phrases. There is nothing about capitulation. Len
:14:27. > :14:32.McCluskey did not wake up one day and decide to have a dispute with
:14:33. > :14:36.INEOS. The workers in that factory democratically elect their shop
:14:37. > :14:40.stewards to represent them and to express to management their concerns
:14:41. > :14:48.and their views. That is what happened with INEOS. Jack Straw has
:14:49. > :14:54.condemned your union's handling of Grangemouth as a catastrophe. Have
:14:55. > :14:58.you considered your position? Jack Straw and others in the Labour
:14:59. > :15:04.Party, you have to ask them what their agenda is. I am not interested
:15:05. > :15:08.in what he says. The truth of the matter is we responded to the
:15:09. > :15:15.requirements and needs of our members. At a mass meeting last
:15:16. > :15:19.Monday 100% supported their shop stewards and their union. We will
:15:20. > :15:24.continue to stand shoulder to shoulder with our members when they
:15:25. > :15:30.are faced with difficult situations. You have lost all the union rights.
:15:31. > :15:37.You have had to agree to a no strike rule, you have lost pension rights.
:15:38. > :15:42.We have not lost rights at all, we are still working with the company
:15:43. > :15:47.to implement its survival plan. The Prime Minister is always attacking
:15:48. > :15:52.unions and just lately he has taken to praising the automotive
:15:53. > :16:00.industry. Jaguar Land Rover, Foxhall, BMW at Cowley, they are all
:16:01. > :16:02.Unite union members were the shop stewards are engaged positively to
:16:03. > :16:08.implement survival plans and to make a success for the company. That is
:16:09. > :16:12.what we do, but by the same token we stand shoulder to shoulder with our
:16:13. > :16:18.members who are in struggle and we will always do that and we will not
:16:19. > :16:23.be cowed by media attacks on us. Is your leadership not proving to be as
:16:24. > :16:37.disastrous for the members as Arthur Scargill was for the NUM? My
:16:38. > :16:40.membership is growing. I am accountable to my members, two are
:16:41. > :16:44.executive, and the one thing they will know is that when they want me
:16:45. > :16:49.standing shoulder to shoulder with them when they have a problem, I
:16:50. > :17:04.will be there, despite the disgraceful attacks launched on us
:17:05. > :17:06.by the media. "A country ready to welcome your
:17:07. > :17:09.investment which values your friendship and will never exclude
:17:10. > :17:12.anyone because of their race, religion, colour or creed." The
:17:13. > :17:15.words of the Prime minister at the World Islamic Economic Forum which
:17:16. > :17:18.was hosted for the first time in London this week. The PM's warm
:17:19. > :17:20.words are sure to be welcomed by British Muslims who have endured a
:17:21. > :17:23.spate of negative headlines. There's been the controversy over the
:17:24. > :17:26.wearing of the veil, attitudes to women, and the radicalisation of
:17:27. > :17:29.some young British Muslims. In a moment I'll be talking to the
:17:30. > :17:39.Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq Murad.
:17:40. > :17:43.First - here's Giles Dilnot. The call to Friday prayers at the east
:17:44. > :17:49.London Mosque which has strong links with the Muslim Council of Britain,
:17:50. > :17:53.one of the more vocal groups amongst British Muslims. Despite the fact it
:17:54. > :17:58.frequently happens, it is neither helpful nor accurate to describe the
:17:59. > :18:02.British Muslim community. There are so many different sects,
:18:03. > :18:06.traditions, cultures and nationalities, it is more accurate
:18:07. > :18:10.to describe the British Muslim communities, but there is one
:18:11. > :18:19.question being put to them - are they doing enough internally to
:18:20. > :18:23.address some challenging issues? Are they willing to confront
:18:24. > :18:27.radicalisation, attitudes to non-muslins, two women, and cases of
:18:28. > :18:37.sexual exploitation in a meaningful way? A number of them say no, not
:18:38. > :18:43.nearly enough. This former jihad de has spent ten years telling young
:18:44. > :18:47.Muslim teenagers how they can reject extremist radicalisation, using
:18:48. > :18:54.Outward Bound courses and community work, but he and others doing this
:18:55. > :19:02.work thing -- think some elders are failing the youngsters. This has
:19:03. > :19:11.been going on for decades, one figures -- thing is said in public
:19:12. > :19:15.to please people but in private something very different is being
:19:16. > :19:21.said and the messages are being confused. Some of the young people,
:19:22. > :19:29.it pushes them further into a space where they are vulnerable for
:19:30. > :19:34.radical recruiters. For many Muslim youngsters, life is about living 1's
:19:35. > :19:39.faith within an increasingly secular society, a struggle not helped if
:19:40. > :19:47.rigid interpretations of the Koran are being preached, say some
:19:48. > :19:54.sectors. Some practices often don't make sense in 21st-century Britain,
:19:55. > :19:59.and you are perhaps creating obstacles if you stick to those and
:20:00. > :20:04.it is perhaps better to let go of those cultural problems, especially
:20:05. > :20:09.when they need to clear injustices like forced marriage, reticence to
:20:10. > :20:13.talk about grooming for example, or discrimination against women. There
:20:14. > :20:19.is a long list but I am very clear that in fact the bad Muslim is the
:20:20. > :20:25.one who sticks to unflinching, narrow dogmatic fundamentalist
:20:26. > :20:36.perception of religion. One issue often focused on is the wearing of
:20:37. > :20:52.minicab. Polling suggests 80% of Britons would favour a ban in public
:20:53. > :21:03.places. -- the niqab. Many people don't seem to recognise the legacy
:21:04. > :21:07.of the niqab. Many people preach that women should be sidelined and
:21:08. > :21:09.that they are sexual objects that should be covered up and the
:21:10. > :21:15.preservation of morality falls on their shoulders. The Muslim Council
:21:16. > :21:19.of Britain recently got praise for holding a conference on combating
:21:20. > :21:25.sexual exploitation. In the wake of abuse cases that had involved
:21:26. > :21:32.predominantly Pakistani men. For one man who has followed the story for
:21:33. > :21:38.some years, the Muslim Council of Britain needs to do much more. We
:21:39. > :21:46.need to get along together and if things like attitudes towards the
:21:47. > :21:49.normal slim girl in stark contrast to the expression of honour and
:21:50. > :21:57.chastity of the Muslim girl, your sister or daughter, are such that
:21:58. > :22:02.actions that would be an fought off with a slim girl becomes permissible
:22:03. > :22:09.with a white girl, then we are all in trouble. To some, attitudes to
:22:10. > :22:13.women are not limited to sexual interactions at the very structures
:22:14. > :22:17.of life in Muslim communities and indeed the Muslim Council of Britain
:22:18. > :22:26.itself. I would like to ask the Muslim Council of Britain what they
:22:27. > :22:34.are doing about the fact that very few mosques give voices to
:22:35. > :22:34.are doing about the fact that very the fact that someone women are
:22:35. > :22:39.experiencing female genital mutilation and forced marriages,
:22:40. > :22:42.what about the women who are getting married and their marriages are not
:22:43. > :22:48.being registered and they are being left homeless and denied maintenance
:22:49. > :22:50.rights, what about the fact there are sharia rights that have been
:22:51. > :22:55.found to be discriminating against women, and the fact there are men in
:22:56. > :23:01.this country who continue to hold misogynistic views about women, what
:23:02. > :23:07.are you doing? The occasional press release will not solve this problem
:23:08. > :23:11.of a deeply patriarchal community. That all of these issues can be
:23:12. > :23:16.exploited to the point of Islam phobia is not doubted, but many
:23:17. > :23:21.Muslims feel that unless the communities do tackle this openly, a
:23:22. > :23:28.big cultural gap will exist between the two.
:23:29. > :23:31.And the Secretary General of the Muslim Council of Britain, Farooq
:23:32. > :23:40.Murad, joins me now. One visible sign that sets muslins aside is the
:23:41. > :23:47.veils that cover women's faces. Do you think it makes them impossible
:23:48. > :23:55.to be part of mainstream society? The niqab is not an obligatory
:23:56. > :23:57.requirement. But do you accept that those who wear it are cutting
:23:58. > :24:11.themselves off from mainstream society? Some people do, and whilst
:24:12. > :24:14.wearing niqab, some of them are working in various walks of life
:24:15. > :24:19.successfully and it is seen as a faith requirement, but it is a red
:24:20. > :24:25.herring in the sense that it applies to such a small number of Muslim
:24:26. > :24:35.girls. For many Muslim preachers, isn't separation precisely the point
:24:36. > :24:39.of the niqab? Certainly not, if you look at the Muslim women in the
:24:40. > :24:48.public sphere, we have many very successful women. But not the ones
:24:49. > :24:56.who are veiled. Not in the public arena as such, but the veil is a
:24:57. > :25:02.practice which is practised by a very small number. Do you favour
:25:03. > :25:08.it? I personally think it is not a requirement. But do you think women
:25:09. > :25:13.should wear the veil? I think it is wrong to force women to wear the
:25:14. > :25:18.veil. I asked if in your opinion women should wear the veil? It is
:25:19. > :25:25.important not to force women to wear the veil. Should they of their free
:25:26. > :25:28.choice where the veil? A lot of individuals do things out of their
:25:29. > :25:34.free choice which I do not approve of, I don't think it is conducive it
:25:35. > :25:39.helps their cause, but I do not have the right to take their choice away
:25:40. > :25:44.from them. I am still unsure if you think it is a good thing or a bad
:25:45. > :25:48.thing. Are not many Muslim women in this country being forced by Muslim
:25:49. > :25:54.preachers and often their male relations who want to keep Muslim
:25:55. > :26:00.women their place? As I said, it is wrong for anyone to force Muslim
:26:01. > :26:08.women. But how would we ever know in a family if a woman was being
:26:09. > :26:13.forced? Exactly, we don't know what is going on in people 's homes and
:26:14. > :26:18.what pressure is being applied. I want you to look at this picture,
:26:19. > :26:23.very popular on Islamic websites, and it shows the women who is
:26:24. > :26:30.wearing the niqab having a straight route to heaven, and the other
:26:31. > :26:33.Muslim woman dressed in western gear condemned to hell. Do you consider
:26:34. > :26:43.that a proper message for Muslim women? Not at all, I don't. So any
:26:44. > :26:47.Islamic websites in Britain... The Muslim Council of Britain is an
:26:48. > :26:53.organisation of five affiliates from across the country and this is not
:26:54. > :26:59.coming from any of them. As I said, those minority views propagated by
:27:00. > :27:03.individuals should not be used to represent Muslim community. So that
:27:04. > :27:09.would not have the support of the Muslim Council of Britain? It would
:27:10. > :27:21.not have the support. What about the Muslim free school that requires
:27:22. > :27:28.children as young as 11 to wear a black veil outside of school? Do you
:27:29. > :27:37.agree with that? I am not sure exactly what the policy is... I have
:27:38. > :27:46.just told you, do you agree that girls as young as 11 should wear a
:27:47. > :27:52.black burka outside of school? I don't think it should be imposed on
:27:53. > :28:03.anybody. But this is the desired dress School of the Muslim females.
:28:04. > :28:09.I am asking for your view. I said it at the beginning that I do not think
:28:10. > :28:15.it should be imposed. Would you send your daughter to a school that would
:28:16. > :28:26.wear a black burka at the age of 11? Would you? No. It seems that some
:28:27. > :28:33.muslins are determined to segregate young Muslim girls right from the
:28:34. > :28:37.start to very early from society. It is not their segregation as such, I
:28:38. > :28:46.would say that there are faith schools, if you look at an Islamic
:28:47. > :28:51.girls school in Blackburn in a traditional setting, it has come the
:28:52. > :29:00.top of the league table this year in the secondary school league tables.
:29:01. > :29:03.But it doesn't make 11-year-olds wear black burkas. Many of those
:29:04. > :29:11.girls go on to have a successful career. Not wearing black burkas. I
:29:12. > :29:18.am sure there are examples of women who do have successful careers.
:29:19. > :29:30.There is a very conservative movement from the continent on
:29:31. > :29:34.Islam, and the issue supposedly based on Islamic law on their
:29:35. > :29:41.website. Here is one of their recent judgements. The female is encouraged
:29:42. > :29:45.to remain within the confines of her home as much as possible, she should
:29:46. > :29:50.not come out of the home without need and necessity. What do you
:29:51. > :29:55.think of that? We need to say the whole context of that quote. They
:29:56. > :30:05.are saying they should stay at home as much as possible, do you agree
:30:06. > :30:13.with that? I see many Muslim women who are walking about... But this is
:30:14. > :30:18.what the mosque is recommending women should do. The practice is
:30:19. > :30:40.quite the contrary. Let me show you another one. Another Fatwa. Do you
:30:41. > :30:44.agree with that? These have been picked out from material dating back
:30:45. > :30:50.to different cultural settings and in practice they are not applied.
:30:51. > :30:57.This is advice being given as we speak. This is not being practised.
:30:58. > :31:05.Do you agree with it? No, not at all. These are from the DL Monday
:31:06. > :31:16.mosques, how come 72 of these mosques are affiliated to your
:31:17. > :31:26.counsel? There may be publications from one of their scholars, but they
:31:27. > :31:31.have been written in countries abroad and translated. This is
:31:32. > :31:37.advice being given to young women now. They are affiliated to the
:31:38. > :31:43.Muslim Council of Britain. Do you ever speak to them about that? The
:31:44. > :31:50.Muslim Council is a very broad organisation. We are working on lots
:31:51. > :31:58.of common issues to create a community which positively
:31:59. > :32:05.integrates. Did you ever speak to them to say this is not appropriate
:32:06. > :32:08.for British Muslims? There may be certain ad buys and publications
:32:09. > :32:16.available, but people make their choices. So it is OK for your
:32:17. > :32:26.organisation to issue things like that? Many of these things will fall
:32:27. > :32:36.under scrutiny and we need to create that. Why do only 26% of British
:32:37. > :32:42.mosques have facilities for women? If you go back to the requirement of
:32:43. > :32:48.prayer, it was not obligatory for women to come to the masks to
:32:49. > :32:54.prayer. When a poorer community began putting up mosques at the very
:32:55. > :33:02.beginning in terraced houses... Did you have a policy to encourage them?
:33:03. > :33:12.Is it on your website? It is in our practices that 20% of the council
:33:13. > :33:17.have to be female. Coming out of this movement there is a conscious
:33:18. > :33:24.stream of superiority between Muslims and non-Muslims. Look at
:33:25. > :33:41.this quote. He is a well-known picture in this country.
:33:42. > :33:54.That is what he wants to stop. I disagree with that. We believe we
:33:55. > :33:59.live in this society and Muslims in any society of the world, and they
:34:00. > :34:04.have historically lived as minorities in many countries... You
:34:05. > :34:11.would this associate yourself from that? Why do you allow people like
:34:12. > :34:18.that to be affiliated to you? The requirement is for any organisation
:34:19. > :34:22.to be affiliated is that they are bound by the Charity commission's
:34:23. > :34:30.rules and regulations. We only accept those who are under the law
:34:31. > :34:38.of this country. This is a matter of taste. Let me move on to a bigger
:34:39. > :34:45.issue. In 2009 you signed the Istanbul dash-mac the Istanbul
:34:46. > :34:56.declaration was signed. Do you still support it? No, we never signed it
:34:57. > :35:05.or supported it. One of your leading lights signed it. In the media
:35:06. > :35:11.mainstream he defended his position. You have this associated yourself
:35:12. > :35:19.from it? What is wrong with that? I am not sure about the declaration
:35:20. > :35:28.because we disassociated ourselves. Before reading it? We did not sign
:35:29. > :35:34.it. You have not read it? I do not know all the aspects of the
:35:35. > :35:44.declaration, but at the time in the national newspapers and media there
:35:45. > :35:51.was a discussion and a debate and it was highlighted that that was not
:35:52. > :35:55.what was meant by the declaration. When did you decide so is the
:35:56. > :36:05.yourself from the declaration? From day one. We never signed it. The
:36:06. > :36:09.East London Mosque which you are personally closely associated with
:36:10. > :36:21.is the venue for a number of extremist speakers, who espoused
:36:22. > :36:25.extremist positions. In 2009 the mosque posted a video and
:36:26. > :36:30.presentation by somebody described by the UN Security Council as an
:36:31. > :36:35.Al-Qaeda leader supporter. Another speaker described Christians and
:36:36. > :36:40.Jews as Phil. You have had a jihad is supporter of the Taliban there.
:36:41. > :36:48.Why do you do nothing to stop extremists like that at this mask
:36:49. > :36:53.with which you are associated with? We do not have anything to do with
:36:54. > :36:58.any rhetoric that condones or supported violence. We issue
:36:59. > :37:03.guidelines and the mosque itself is a registered charity which has its
:37:04. > :37:07.own rules and regulations, but it is a very large mosques and lots of
:37:08. > :37:13.organisations book and come and told their gatherings. We rent out the
:37:14. > :37:26.facilities. You were prepared to speak alongside a man who saluted
:37:27. > :37:31.suicide bombers, and said 9/11 was a Zionist conspiracy. Why would you
:37:32. > :37:35.share a platform like that? I did not share a platform like that.
:37:36. > :37:44.Different organisations come and have conferences here. Why did you
:37:45. > :37:52.agree? I did not agree with that. I completely reject that. When you add
:37:53. > :37:58.all this up the attitude to women, the alliance with the most
:37:59. > :38:03.fundamentalist Islamic mosques, the toleration of intolerant views, a
:38:04. > :38:07.willingness for you to be counted among them, why should anybody of
:38:08. > :38:16.goodwill, either a Muslim or a non-Muslim, regard the MCB as a good
:38:17. > :38:23.force? It is an organisation which embraces different organisations
:38:24. > :38:28.which are affiliated in the Muslim community. You have taken snippets
:38:29. > :38:33.of certain individual views which are not the views of our affiliates.
:38:34. > :38:38.It would be unfair to represent our view based on those which you have
:38:39. > :38:46.highlighted in this programme. The work that we do is quite clear and
:38:47. > :38:52.is on our website. They are all associated with you, but we will
:38:53. > :38:53.have to leave it there. You are watching the Sunday Politics. Coming
:38:54. > :39:15.up: I will be talking to joke Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics
:39:16. > :39:24.in Northern Ireland. Time to break the deadlock in parades and the
:39:25. > :39:30.past, it is picking up pace. Is in decade about to announce a
:39:31. > :39:38.referendum on same-sex marriage in the Republic? I will reflect on all
:39:39. > :39:50.that. I am joined by two newspaper editors. So, Richard Harris was by
:39:51. > :39:56.in Northern Ireland this week to break the impasse on flags and the
:39:57. > :40:01.leading in the past. This week he has been meeting some of the smaller
:40:02. > :40:10.parties. John McAllister and Stephen Agnew are with us. Also with us is a
:40:11. > :40:18.woman who helped draft the report on dealing with the past. What was your
:40:19. > :40:28.engagement with the team like on Monday? Very encouraging. There were
:40:29. > :40:32.a few key messages. The Good Friday Agreement, it is about getting
:40:33. > :40:47.people back to basics. Northern Ireland does exist, let us break at
:40:48. > :40:55.work. -- let us make it work. It is a crisis we have entirely managed to
:40:56. > :41:03.create with the DUP and Sinn Fein. Were you able to get anything back?
:41:04. > :41:11.Without breaking any confidences of the discussion there were some very
:41:12. > :41:18.probing questions. He was keen to know what we were standing for, what
:41:19. > :41:25.we thought on the three main issues of flags. He was interested that we
:41:26. > :41:32.were supportive of designated days and tackling flags being left for
:41:33. > :41:38.whether to bring down and the demarcation of territory on other
:41:39. > :41:44.issues. We have been supportive and still are supportive of some kind of
:41:45. > :41:57.police committee. It needs to be regulated and he accepted that. What
:41:58. > :42:03.was the Green party pitch? We talked about success, are detox helpful, we
:42:04. > :42:13.believe they are. Something that is key for us. -- the talks. The Good
:42:14. > :42:19.Friday Agreement was the people's agreement. Whatever happened at St
:42:20. > :42:24.Andrews they did so without the people, it took place after an
:42:25. > :42:30.election. I welcome this week that it has been said there will be a
:42:31. > :42:36.mechanism to involve the people. We welcome that the cause we believe
:42:37. > :42:43.that politicians have taken the peace process and made it veers but
:42:44. > :42:54.actually it needs to involve wider society. The protests and troubles
:42:55. > :42:57.we have seen on our streets. Did you get a sense that there is a great
:42:58. > :43:09.understanding of what is happening here? I certainly think the gravity
:43:10. > :43:17.of the role is recognised. It is for politicians to find the solutions
:43:18. > :43:28.but it is for this man to find the encouragement for them. The past is
:43:29. > :43:34.likely to be the most difficult part of the remake, what is the main
:43:35. > :43:39.thrust of your argument? We do see this very much as a people 's
:43:40. > :43:43.process, something where the public and the academics of society can
:43:44. > :43:53.participate. We were generally uneasy about the way the current
:43:54. > :43:58.debate has been framed. It is a very narrow once more to the South
:43:59. > :44:04.African model. We do not think that would work for our variety of
:44:05. > :44:12.reasons. The main reason is that the truth recovery minimises the grief
:44:13. > :44:18.and injury experienced here over the last 40 years and longer. We would
:44:19. > :44:23.argue that are much more rigorous evidence -based look at the past
:44:24. > :44:28.that can be gleaned through the political archives and the
:44:29. > :44:34.government archives and through the marked and unmarked graves of this
:44:35. > :44:38.country and beyond. That would provide us with the opportunity to
:44:39. > :44:42.recover truth but also respect and acknowledge the suffering that has
:44:43. > :45:01.come before the Good Friday Agreement. You were talking about a
:45:02. > :45:07.commission of historic recognition. That sounds very academic. It is
:45:08. > :45:14.academic. Consulting with the archives gives an opportunity to
:45:15. > :45:26.bring together at much more robust and Regulus and principled approach
:45:27. > :45:32.to the past. -- rigorous. Does that mean reducing the role of the
:45:33. > :45:38.politicians? It means opening the archives held in London, Belfast and
:45:39. > :45:43.Dublin. Opening those archives and allowing investigation, assessment
:45:44. > :45:54.and analysis. It means then bringing that analysis or in a much more
:45:55. > :45:57.rigorous way than it has been used. It sounds like a robust academic
:45:58. > :46:05.approach rather than an emotional approach, might that be a good idea?
:46:06. > :46:12.We certainly have to find some way of drawing the elliptical line under
:46:13. > :46:19.hot we were dealing with in the past. -- drawing at political line
:46:20. > :46:25.under what we were dealing with in the past. Has that been helpful in
:46:26. > :46:32.the healing process? I would suggest not. We need to look at what we can
:46:33. > :46:36.do on the ground to help people, to make it there until -- personalised
:46:37. > :46:46.and individual. That is what I would like to see. My concern is that when
:46:47. > :46:52.you look at the archives in London, Belfast and Dublin, what do you do
:46:53. > :47:01.with other main participants in the Troubles, the IRA, the Loyalist
:47:02. > :47:07.paramilitaries. You are still in this 2-tier approach. I still do not
:47:08. > :47:09.see how you get round drawing a political line but carrying on the
:47:10. > :47:20.good work on the ground with victims. How would that work? Other
:47:21. > :47:40.archives would either not be open or do not exist. We would speak to
:47:41. > :47:47.people and have word of mouth. Is there something of interest to you
:47:48. > :47:51.in what we are hearing? I certainly think the academic view is important
:47:52. > :47:56.but we need to move away from a controlled narrative at the top. It
:47:57. > :48:01.needs to be a democratic history and it is not one narrative will stop it
:48:02. > :48:09.needs to come from how people experienced it. We need all of those
:48:10. > :48:19.rather than trying to narrow it down will stop thank you all very much
:48:20. > :48:27.indeed. The editor of the Ballymena Guardian and the Irish News are with
:48:28. > :48:32.me. The notion of opening archives and approaching this in at different
:48:33. > :48:43.way, the past is likely to be the most difficult challenge. What you
:48:44. > :48:50.think? Some of the material in the archives might not be suitable. We
:48:51. > :48:57.have to recognise that we have official government security files
:48:58. > :49:00.which are not necessarily connected to the paramilitary organisations so
:49:01. > :49:07.there will be talk of collusion. There are going to be notifying of
:49:08. > :49:17.any worth which will move the whole process or. It is a very difficult
:49:18. > :49:24.and complex area. It is clearly determined to be an inclusive
:49:25. > :49:30.process. People have different ideas about the past and how it should be
:49:31. > :49:37.dealt with. I would be optimistic that it will be teased out with this
:49:38. > :49:42.current process. What about the smaller parties, there have been 400
:49:43. > :49:47.submissions from civil society and other interest groups. Is that part
:49:48. > :49:57.of the solution or does it ultimately come down to the two key
:49:58. > :50:02.parties? We have to hear from as many voices as possible. The two
:50:03. > :50:07.main parties made a mess of the process. It does come down to the
:50:08. > :50:11.two main groups but there has been some talk about a referendum. We
:50:12. > :50:20.need to be cautious about that. Unless it was worded very carefully
:50:21. > :50:25.there is a danger of a circadian headcount which could be damaging in
:50:26. > :50:31.terms of community relations. Politicians have not behaved well
:50:32. > :50:37.over flags, parades and the past. At wider engagement has to be a
:50:38. > :50:50.prospect. It would be great if a sense of mature ditty -- mid surety
:50:51. > :50:55.descends on Stormont. The more views that are on the table the better. I
:50:56. > :51:04.am not quite sure what the endgame is here. Well there be deals with
:51:05. > :51:15.flags, parades and the cast? Is it all or nothing or will progress be
:51:16. > :51:22.made on each aspect? Do you get a sense at all that there will be some
:51:23. > :51:33.resolution by Christmas? It is possible but these issues have been
:51:34. > :51:37.with us forever. There was a good solution which did not down so well
:51:38. > :51:46.at City Hall but surely there is a way of coming round? We could get
:51:47. > :52:00.over parade but the past might take longer. Now, their grandfather was
:52:01. > :52:06.one of the most famous men in Northern Ireland, Edward Carson 's
:52:07. > :52:19.granddaughters were special guests at Stormont. We have always known he
:52:20. > :52:32.was responsible for Northern Ireland existing at all. Every one goes, in
:52:33. > :52:42.places like South Africa, the say grandfather could have been shot as
:52:43. > :52:52.a traitor. This was not really what he wanted? He was eight union man
:52:53. > :53:01.and he wanted Ireland as a whole, that was not how it was to be. I
:53:02. > :53:11.have heard your father was a product of Lord Carson's first marriage. He
:53:12. > :53:22.described them as a wrong lot. I read that too. There were four of
:53:23. > :53:29.them, two girls and two boys. We never knew him. You don't think he
:53:30. > :53:40.directed that comment at your own father, do you? He could have done.
:53:41. > :53:46.He was very much at practical joker. Have you found today overwhelming?
:53:47. > :53:57.Very interesting. Saying we have seen things we have only read about.
:53:58. > :54:09.Edward Carson's granddaughters speaking to our reporter on their
:54:10. > :54:24.first visit to Northern Ireland. It was said there are hopes for a
:54:25. > :54:28.referendum to be held in 2014. I am joined now by the Irish affairs
:54:29. > :54:41.editor. This seems to be a key policy in the government. It is a
:54:42. > :54:49.key policy along with the abortion legislation. Same-sex marriage has
:54:50. > :54:58.been described as a human rights issue. It is very much the key
:54:59. > :55:05.message for Labour. A referendum will be held. What we are less
:55:06. > :55:10.likely to get next week is the dominant party in the quality and
:55:11. > :55:15.telling us where they stand in general. What we are even less
:55:16. > :55:24.likely to get is a potential date for the referendum. We have heard it
:55:25. > :55:30.denied that the Labour Party is split on the matter. How big a job
:55:31. > :55:37.might he have keeping his party together? He may try to get himself
:55:38. > :55:44.personally out of any difficulty. It has been very difficult because he
:55:45. > :55:51.lost seven Parliamentary members when he pushed through abortion
:55:52. > :55:56.legislation. It was very divisive. He was bruised by the fact he has
:55:57. > :56:03.already lost two referendum in the life of this government. What he may
:56:04. > :56:09.do, even if he decides to hold a referendum, he has been very coy
:56:10. > :56:15.about where he stands on the issue but what he may do is hold a neutral
:56:16. > :56:21.position within the party and allowed people within the party to
:56:22. > :56:26.hold the own views. The women who are being discussed, whose lives
:56:27. > :56:31.were being affected, were not very vocal but there are several members
:56:32. > :56:42.of the Parliamentary party who are openly gay and it would be much more
:56:43. > :56:47.difficult for able to oppose that. We have had some important steps.
:56:48. > :56:53.Three years ago we introduced civil partnership which granted marriage
:56:54. > :56:59.style rights on issues such as tax and social welfare but what it left
:57:00. > :57:06.out was the legal start is, the legal relationship for same-sex
:57:07. > :57:12.couples and their children. The government may attempt to resolve
:57:13. > :57:20.that by producing legislation in advance of the referendum. Perhaps
:57:21. > :57:28.politically to see themselves the type of advice on abortion
:57:29. > :57:34.legislation they might agree to hold a referendum. What about the
:57:35. > :57:41.timescale in terms of clarifying what might or might not happen? If
:57:42. > :57:48.there were to be a referendum when would that be? Some wanted to be run
:57:49. > :57:55.with next year's local and European elections when you might have a
:57:56. > :58:00.better chance of a turnout. If it is pushed out into late 2015 you are
:58:01. > :58:08.then running into a general election. I think we would be
:58:09. > :58:15.unforgiving if the decision to have the referendum was held but not
:58:16. > :58:33.until a general election. Now let us pause the fleet. -- let us pause
:58:34. > :58:42.briefly. I carried a thermometer with me to calculate the mood. A
:58:43. > :58:49.ball and was sent to the secretary of state. For me the fact it had my
:58:50. > :59:07.name on it was not a significant issue. I was just doing my job. And
:59:08. > :59:18.civil servants. We must not worry that civil servants do not take sick
:59:19. > :59:30.days. And Tony Blair's spin doctor. Pushing and one below. -- pushing
:59:31. > :59:37.and envelope. Now a final few thoughts from my guests. That letter
:59:38. > :59:42.bomb addressed to the secretary of state was the latest device of its
:59:43. > :59:52.kind to be made safe. There was a pipe bomb sent to the police. The
:59:53. > :59:59.security situation obviously remains a big concern. A threat remains
:00:00. > :00:05.high. Politicians have been in the firing line on the number of
:00:06. > :00:12.occasions. In fairness to them, they have stood firm and are determined
:00:13. > :00:20.to get on with their own jobs and attending to democracy. It has not
:00:21. > :00:28.gone away, that is for sure. Now it has not what it is no coherent
:00:29. > :00:36.elliptical strategy again. There is a danger that these devices could
:00:37. > :00:48.come through. As we look ahead to what could be a very difficult
:00:49. > :00:57.business period they are worried if one get through. The security cost
:00:58. > :01:04.has to be taken into consideration, people being forced away from the
:01:05. > :01:11.city centre. Some of the figures have been discussed and they are
:01:12. > :01:16.substantially different. At the end of the day it is a survey but if you
:01:17. > :01:29.take into account the security costs, it is a massive development.
:01:30. > :01:35.You had mentioned a figure with a reference to the flags. What is your
:01:36. > :01:43.opinion on what should happen during a busy business season? Many are
:01:44. > :01:51.literally keeping the wolf from the door at the minute. Some businesses
:01:52. > :01:55.did go to the wall last time. I think it is important that the
:01:56. > :01:57.traders do get the normal Christmas this year.
:01:58. > :01:58.traders do get the normal Christmas Thank you for coming,
:01:59. > :01:58.traders do get the normal Christmas this year. Thank
:01:59. > :02:10.traders do get the normal Christmas Thank you for coming, great to see
:02:11. > :02:18.you. Andrew, back to you. Labour 's relationship with Unite and other
:02:19. > :02:30.issues all to be discussed in the Week Ahead and we're joined now by
:02:31. > :02:34.the shadow business secretary Chuka Umunna. First I would like to get
:02:35. > :02:37.your reaction to the interview I did earlier with the General Secretary
:02:38. > :02:40.of the union Unite - Len McCluskey. Let's look at what he said. This is
:02:41. > :02:44.a trap being laid by Tory Central office. They are making all of the
:02:45. > :02:49.demands and the Daily Mail, the Sunday Times, are you telling me
:02:50. > :02:53.they are not the conservative mouthpiece in the media? They are
:02:54. > :02:59.laying traps for Ed Miliband and he should not fall into them. Though it
:03:00. > :03:05.is all a Tory plot. Len McCluskey denies a lot of the allegations put,
:03:06. > :03:11.but let me be clear in an industrial dispute, the use of aggressive or
:03:12. > :03:15.intimidatory tactics by either side is totally unacceptable. Do you
:03:16. > :03:20.think it is wrong for Unite to send its members to the homes of
:03:21. > :03:25.managers? I don't know what happened in that particular case, but I think
:03:26. > :03:29.you should keep people 's families out of these things and if you are
:03:30. > :03:33.doing something that can upset particularly children, that is a bad
:03:34. > :03:40.thing. I know he denied a number of things you put to him. We now know
:03:41. > :03:45.some of the content of Labour 's own report into what happened at Falkirk
:03:46. > :03:48.and they found all sorts of things - forgery, coercion, trickery and even
:03:49. > :04:01.that their own investigation was being thwarted by Unite. What should
:04:02. > :04:10.Labour do next? I have not read the report. We are told that the latest
:04:11. > :04:13.allegations that have been made is something that the police are
:04:14. > :04:24.looking into so that is not something I think would be
:04:25. > :04:28.appropriate for me to comment on. We learned Labour Party members in the
:04:29. > :04:33.Falkirk constituency have complained to the leader of the Scottish party
:04:34. > :04:44.about a lack of action by the Labour Party on what happened in Falkirk. I
:04:45. > :04:47.am not part of the Scottish party and that is news to me. But the
:04:48. > :04:51.police have indicated they are looking at the new information that
:04:52. > :04:55.has come to light. It is a bit like the 1980s and there was an
:04:56. > :05:00.electrifying moment when Neil Kinnock took on the militant
:05:01. > :05:05.tendency in Bournemouth in 1985. Ed Miliband has sort of tried to take
:05:06. > :05:12.on the Unite union, but it has not worked. Does then not need to be an
:05:13. > :05:16.electrifying moment for Ed Miliband? Your own paper has praised him for
:05:17. > :05:20.seeking to address the issues we have in politics and the
:05:21. > :05:26.disconnection from people. In many respects the situation in Falkirk
:05:27. > :05:30.categorises the process of further ongoing change where we are trying
:05:31. > :05:38.to establish a better relationship with individual trade union members.
:05:39. > :05:41.In parts of my constituency, some of the most deprived parts, we had
:05:42. > :05:47.people queueing round the block to vote. I do not think the issue is
:05:48. > :05:52.that people are not political, but they have never felt so far from
:05:53. > :05:56.party politics as they do now and that is why Ed Miliband announced
:05:57. > :06:00.this big chains about how we do things in the Labour Party, so we
:06:01. > :06:05.change structures in the Labour Party that were set up in the 20th
:06:06. > :06:10.century. The reform of the way in which we connect and our
:06:11. > :06:14.relationship with the union puts us in a good position because we have
:06:15. > :06:25.this relationship between the 3 million working people who ensure
:06:26. > :06:30.our public services function. At Grangemouth INEOS stood up to
:06:31. > :06:36.unite. At Grangemouth and Falkirk Labour rolled over to the Unite
:06:37. > :06:44.union. I do not agree with that. I'd just explained the reason. I do not
:06:45. > :06:50.think it is fair to ask people to give evidence in an enquiry on the
:06:51. > :06:55.basis of the report will be confidential and then to publish it
:06:56. > :07:01.after. But if somebody is trying to take over a Labour constituency to
:07:02. > :07:07.send an MP of their choice to our Parliament, that should not be
:07:08. > :07:12.secret, that should be public. Ed Miliband acted very decisively. That
:07:13. > :07:18.constituency party is still in special measures as I understand it.
:07:19. > :07:24.This idea that somehow the Unite union runs the Labour Party, they do
:07:25. > :07:30.not. The special measures mean according to Eric Joyce, that an
:07:31. > :07:38.ally of Stevie Deans is chairing the meeting. I am interested in the Tory
:07:39. > :07:42.suggestion that they would offer free Tory party membership to union
:07:43. > :07:50.members. I then moving onto your turf? We do not know exactly all the
:07:51. > :07:59.facts and the truth of the allegations that have been made. On
:08:00. > :08:04.your point I think it is healthy the Conservatives are looking to recruit
:08:05. > :08:12.trade union members. A lot of their rhetoric is very negative in respect
:08:13. > :08:18.of trade unions. If you look at Unison a third of the members vote
:08:19. > :08:22.Conservative. In Unite union some of their members vote Tory. I think
:08:23. > :08:28.trade unions have a lot to bring to our country. It is one of the things
:08:29. > :08:34.many up and down the country will find very frustrating, a lot of the
:08:35. > :08:37.good work that unions do if it gets tarnished with all the negative
:08:38. > :08:43.stuff you see... Unite are working in partnership with GM and the
:08:44. > :08:48.senior management in Ellesmere Port and the government ensured that we
:08:49. > :08:56.kept that plant open. That gets overlooked by all of this. Do you
:08:57. > :09:01.not think the bolshie behaviour from unions are motivated not by
:09:02. > :09:05.strength, but by weakness. Unite know they cannot paralyse the
:09:06. > :09:10.country in the way their forebears used to be able to do. Their
:09:11. > :09:16.penetration rates in the private sector is 11%. The union movement is
:09:17. > :09:20.weaker than it was before I was born. Some of that truck killers and
:09:21. > :09:25.bad behaviour either death spasms of their movement rather than something
:09:26. > :09:34.that is motivated by the fact they can't paralyse the country. You have
:09:35. > :09:39.two increase the membership. But there is an issue about the public
:09:40. > :09:44.perception of trade unions. It is right they should be a voice of
:09:45. > :09:49.protest and anger and stand up for their members when it is necessary.
:09:50. > :09:55.But people join unions for their aspiration. The unions do a lot so
:09:56. > :10:00.that people can move up in their workplace. That profile needs to
:10:01. > :10:07.come across as strongly as the protest part. I want to move on to
:10:08. > :10:14.business. The head of the CBI has said that Labour's pro-enterprise
:10:15. > :10:20.credentials have suffered a setback. He said that in relation to Ed
:10:21. > :10:24.Miliband's speech. I was on the radio earlier. If you look at the
:10:25. > :10:28.things in the speech, some of that was going to be uncomfortable for
:10:29. > :10:32.some of the countries and they tend to be companies represented by the
:10:33. > :10:39.CBI, like energy companies, like land developers, a lot of the big
:10:40. > :10:46.business lose out from is not doing the corporate tax cut. The energy
:10:47. > :10:51.freeze is going to help over 2.4 million businesses that have been
:10:52. > :10:55.hit by high energy bills. The business community has said we had
:10:56. > :11:01.to bring the public sector finances back into balance. That is why we
:11:02. > :11:07.decided to switch the money being used to reduce corporation tax and
:11:08. > :11:11.use that to help a much greater variety of businesses by doing a
:11:12. > :11:20.business rate cut. It is all pro enterprise. They also seem to be
:11:21. > :11:26.critical of your new idea of a living wage. They are not critical.
:11:27. > :11:32.It would not be compulsory, but there would be a tax credit if they
:11:33. > :11:37.paid it. It is good for business because if people are earning more
:11:38. > :11:43.than they are more productive. It is good for the employee and good for
:11:44. > :11:50.us as well because it means we are not having to subsidise people to be
:11:51. > :11:58.paid to the extent we have with tax credits and benefits. Everybody
:11:59. > :12:05.benefits from this. We all know after 2009 we need to have bold
:12:06. > :12:12.change. Does Labour paid a living wage? We have got over 20 of our
:12:13. > :12:18.councils signed up to doing so and we have made commitments in respect
:12:19. > :12:27.to Whitehall. Does the Labour Party pay it? I believe so. Would it not
:12:28. > :12:41.be worth checking? Do you get a living wage? Yes, of course I do. I
:12:42. > :12:46.understand we paid a living wage. What does it feel like for Tristram
:12:47. > :12:53.Hunt who has taken over your mantle as Labour's next leader? Is that a
:12:54. > :12:58.relieved or are you angry? He is one of my best friends and at the end of
:12:59. > :13:03.the day if we got obsessed with this soap opera stuff we would never get
:13:04. > :13:11.anything done and we are working together to make sure we have got
:13:12. > :13:18.the right skills in our workforce. That is all for today. The daily
:13:19. > :13:27.politics is on all week. I will be here again next weekend at 12:25pm
:13:28. > :13:30.after the Remembrance Day service at the Cenotaph. Remember if it is
:13:31. > :13:37.Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.