03/12/2017

0:00:38 > 0:00:39Good morning, everyone.

0:00:39 > 0:00:41I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:41 > 0:00:44Welcome to the Sunday Politics - your essential guide to the biggest

0:00:44 > 0:00:45political stories of the week.

0:00:45 > 0:00:48Coming up on today's show...

0:00:48 > 0:00:51Ahead of a crucial EU summit, is Theresa May on the brink

0:00:51 > 0:00:54of a breakthrough on Brexit?

0:00:54 > 0:00:58Or, after a slightly torrid week, is she in danger of being

0:00:58 > 0:01:00overtaken by events?

0:01:00 > 0:01:02The ex-Labour minister Alan Milburn quits as chairman

0:01:02 > 0:01:05of the Social Mobility Commission, saying he has "little hope"

0:01:05 > 0:01:06the current government can make the "necessary" progress.

0:01:06 > 0:01:09What does this mean for a Prime Minister who vowed

0:01:09 > 0:01:12to fight against the "burning injustice" of inequality?

0:01:12 > 0:01:15And, we speak to the academic who's carrying out economic "wargaming"

0:01:15 > 0:01:20scenarios for the Labour party, in the event it wins power.

0:01:20 > 0:01:23People are going to trust us with their jobs and their pensions

0:01:23 > 0:01:25and their livelihoods.

0:01:25 > 0:01:25We've got to show we know what we're doing.

0:01:32 > 0:01:35And coming up here - the UK is to make its final offer

0:01:35 > 0:01:37on Brexit tomorrow - but has enough work been done

0:01:37 > 0:01:38on dealing with the Irish border?

0:01:39 > 0:01:43I'll be talking live to Sinn Fein's Martina Anderson and a Tory MP.

0:01:46 > 0:01:47Yes, all that coming up in the programme.

0:01:47 > 0:01:51And to help guide me through all the week's

0:01:51 > 0:01:53twists and turns, I'm joined by Tom Newton Dunn,

0:01:53 > 0:01:56Isabel Oakeshott, and Steve Richards.

0:01:56 > 0:01:59Now, the breaking news this morning is the resignation of Alan Milburn -

0:01:59 > 0:02:01the ex-Labour minister who, for the last five years, has chaired

0:02:01 > 0:02:03the Social Mobility Commission.

0:02:03 > 0:02:05He says the Government is too preoccupied with Brexit

0:02:05 > 0:02:06to focus on social justice.

0:02:06 > 0:02:11We'll be assessing the significance of that in a moment.

0:02:11 > 0:02:14But first, if that relationship has turned sour for the Prime Minister,

0:02:14 > 0:02:19it wasn't the only one this week.

0:02:19 > 0:02:22Like all relationships, our liaison with our European neighbours

0:02:22 > 0:02:25has had its ups and downs.

0:02:25 > 0:02:30Theresa May wants a deep and special partnership after Brexit.

0:02:30 > 0:02:33Thus far, money has been the main obstacle to

0:02:33 > 0:02:36an amicable divorce.

0:02:36 > 0:02:40This week, a possible breakthrough.

0:02:40 > 0:02:42He once said "the EU could go whistle if they

0:02:42 > 0:02:46asked for too much," now he's practically dancing with joy.

0:02:46 > 0:02:49It's a fantastic opportunity now to get going.

0:02:49 > 0:02:52Others are always harder to please.

0:02:52 > 0:02:55It is not worth nearly 50 billion sterling.

0:02:55 > 0:03:01No deal is better than a bad deal and this is a very bad deal indeed.

0:03:01 > 0:03:04Brussels may be on board with the divorce bill but

0:03:04 > 0:03:06there's trouble over the Irish border.

0:03:06 > 0:03:09If the UK offer is unacceptable for Ireland, it will

0:03:09 > 0:03:15also be unacceptable for the EU.

0:03:15 > 0:03:17Reports suggest Stormont could be given more power to agree bespoke

0:03:17 > 0:03:20trading arrangements with the Republic but that, in turn,

0:03:20 > 0:03:24enraged Theresa May's partners in Parliament.

0:03:24 > 0:03:27The DUP could walk out of their marriage of convenience

0:03:27 > 0:03:29with the Tories if the Government allows Northern Ireland to diverge

0:03:29 > 0:03:34from the rest of the UK.

0:03:34 > 0:03:37If there is any hint that in order to placate Dublin and the EU,

0:03:37 > 0:03:40they are prepared to have Northern Ireland treated differently

0:03:40 > 0:03:46than the rest of the United Kingdom, then they can't rely on our vote.

0:03:46 > 0:03:48But it was the "special relationship" that came

0:03:48 > 0:03:52under most strain.

0:03:52 > 0:03:53As Donald Trump re-tweeted Islamophobia videos,

0:03:53 > 0:03:57posted by the far right group, Britain First.

0:03:57 > 0:04:00Denounced by Downing Street, the President took to Twitter again,

0:04:00 > 0:04:02telling Theresa May directly, "Don't focus on me,

0:04:02 > 0:04:07we are doing just fine."

0:04:07 > 0:04:10The Prime Minister on a surprise trip to the Middle East was plunged

0:04:10 > 0:04:12into a very public row.

0:04:12 > 0:04:13I'm very clear that re-tweeting from Britain

0:04:13 > 0:04:18First was the wrong thing to do.

0:04:18 > 0:04:23The May-Trump mini break in the UK might be off.

0:04:23 > 0:04:26I certainly don't think he should be should be coming next year.

0:04:26 > 0:04:29Next year is supposed to be a happy event for the Royal family.

0:04:29 > 0:04:31We certainly don't want Trump turning up in the middle

0:04:31 > 0:04:32of all of that.

0:04:32 > 0:04:35Meanwhile, Labour leader and GQ magazine cover model declared

0:04:35 > 0:04:39himself to be an enemy of greedy bankers.

0:04:39 > 0:04:43So, when they say, we're a threat, they're right.

0:04:43 > 0:04:45We are a threat to a damaging and failed

0:04:45 > 0:04:49system that's rigged for the few.

0:04:49 > 0:04:52The Prime Minister's closest political

0:04:52 > 0:04:54friend stood in for her at the dispatch box on Wednesday

0:04:54 > 0:04:57while she was abroad but fresh questions emerged later

0:04:57 > 0:04:59in the week about whether he'd used a Parliamentary

0:04:59 > 0:05:04computer to view pornography some nine years ago.

0:05:04 > 0:05:07Theresa May will meet be EU Commission President

0:05:07 > 0:05:09Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow.

0:05:09 > 0:05:11They will discuss the revised offer on the divorce

0:05:11 > 0:05:14bill and whether talks can now move on to trade

0:05:14 > 0:05:15post-Brexit.

0:05:15 > 0:05:19It has not been an easy relationship with leaks from

0:05:19 > 0:05:21previous meetings finding their way into the German press.

0:05:21 > 0:05:30Hopefully, they can put all of that behind them.

0:05:31 > 0:05:35So, we will talk through one of the top stories for the week with our

0:05:35 > 0:05:40panel in the studio. We are going to be looking ahead to what is

0:05:40 > 0:05:44happening in Brussels. The Prime Minister is going over for a working

0:05:44 > 0:05:47lunch with Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow. We are always saying we

0:05:47 > 0:05:51have reached a critical stage in the negotiations.Is it a critical

0:05:51 > 0:05:59point? It is. It is endgame of chapter one. There are two chapters,

0:05:59 > 0:06:03divorce and then trade. This is the end of the first half, at the 43rd

0:06:03 > 0:06:10minute. It is probably 0-0. We need to get over the line and into

0:06:10 > 0:06:15half-time and into the second half. Wyatt is so critical is the Prime

0:06:15 > 0:06:19Minister, in the next few days, she cannot wait till the 14th or 15th of

0:06:19 > 0:06:26December, have to choose to govern is to choose. One side is saying

0:06:26 > 0:06:30this is what we will act set to move on to the second phase and the

0:06:30 > 0:06:35Eurosceptics will say, we will not access to any of that. She has to

0:06:35 > 0:06:43get off the fence. One is what they will do about easy JN the other

0:06:43 > 0:06:49about the Irish border. To divert or not diverged?This is only the end

0:06:49 > 0:06:55of the first half of the process. If the EU agrees we can move onto the

0:06:55 > 0:07:01second half. That is not guaranteed, is it?Tom's analogy, I will not go

0:07:01 > 0:07:10too far with it because I'm not a football expert. Brexiteers feel it

0:07:10 > 0:07:18is more like 1-0 to the EU. There is a circulation today, leave means

0:07:18 > 0:07:23leave, which is signed by eminent business people and academics. Only

0:07:23 > 0:07:28a few MPs, about five of them on now. We were discussing this earlier

0:07:28 > 0:07:32and Tom made the point it is quite a hostile thing for a Tory MP to sign

0:07:32 > 0:07:36a letter like this. Many more agree with the contents of the letter,

0:07:36 > 0:07:42which sets out the set of conditions the PM must not agree to, in their

0:07:42 > 0:07:47view, must not capitulate to as the negotiation goes forward. It is

0:07:47 > 0:07:52about when free movement of people ends and we retain the power to go

0:07:52 > 0:07:57to WTO if all else fails.We be discussing this further with our

0:07:57 > 0:08:02guests and find out what the EU had think about it. The other big news

0:08:02 > 0:08:06of the morning is that Alan Milburn resigned from the social mobility

0:08:06 > 0:08:17commission. He told and remarked earlier why. -- Andrew Marr.

0:08:17 > 0:08:20In various social mobility roles, I've served a Labour Prime Minister,

0:08:20 > 0:08:22a coalition Prime Minister, and now, a Conservative one.

0:08:22 > 0:08:25I've done so because I care deeply about the issue and I believe

0:08:25 > 0:08:27that it matters profoundly to the country.

0:08:27 > 0:08:29I've reached the conclusion, sadly, that with the current government,

0:08:29 > 0:08:32there is little if any hope of progress being made

0:08:32 > 0:08:33towards the fairer Britain that the Prime Minister

0:08:33 > 0:08:35has talked about.

0:08:35 > 0:08:36The Government, probably for understandable reasons,

0:08:36 > 0:08:38is focused on Brexit, and seems to lack the bandwidth

0:08:38 > 0:08:41to be able to translate the rhetoric of healing social division

0:08:41 > 0:08:46and promoting social justice into a reality.

0:08:46 > 0:08:50That is a pretty damning statement, the Government does not have the

0:08:50 > 0:08:57bandwidth to do with anything other than Brexit.It is true. Brexit is

0:08:57 > 0:09:01sucking up all political energy much practical energy in Whitehall.

0:09:01 > 0:09:06Beyond that, the significance of this is not huge. I think these

0:09:06 > 0:09:11commissions float uneasily in government. If you make policy on

0:09:11 > 0:09:15social justice, you can do that within a government department if

0:09:15 > 0:09:20you are serious about it. I think it was set up partly with good

0:09:20 > 0:09:23intentions in the coalition period, partly to break off the Blairites

0:09:23 > 0:09:29from Labour and get them involved with these so called modernising

0:09:29 > 0:09:34Conservative project, and the fact that it is ending, I don't think in

0:09:34 > 0:09:38itself is significant. But he is absolutely... By the way they were

0:09:38 > 0:09:43never entirely clear on policy terms. The fact he said I am not a

0:09:43 > 0:09:49status quo nor am I with Theresa May, what are going to be the

0:09:49 > 0:09:54mediating agencies? There are some huge issues to address. Whether this

0:09:54 > 0:09:58was the appropriate way to do it in the first place, I have doubts about

0:09:58 > 0:10:01it.Thank you for that.

0:10:01 > 0:10:04Well, to pick up on all of that, I'm joined by the former

0:10:04 > 0:10:05Conservative leader, Michael Howard.

0:10:05 > 0:10:10Thank you for coming in. Let's start with the claim by Alan Milburn that

0:10:10 > 0:10:14the Government does not have the time or capacity to do anything

0:10:14 > 0:10:19other than Brexit. That must be a concern to you as well.I think he

0:10:19 > 0:10:24is wrong. I share his concern about social mobility. When I was the

0:10:24 > 0:10:27leader of the Conservative Party used to make speeches about the

0:10:27 > 0:10:31British dream and the importance of social mobility. There is always

0:10:31 > 0:10:42more to be done but we have actually made a lot of progress. Can I give

0:10:42 > 0:10:44you some examples? We would all agree that education is key to

0:10:44 > 0:10:47social mobility. We have 1.9 million children now, 1.9 million children

0:10:47 > 0:10:52more than in 2010 in good or outstanding schools.His complaint

0:10:52 > 0:10:57was not that nothing has been done since 2010 but nothing can be done

0:10:57 > 0:11:04now.It is still happening. Income inequality is at its lowest level

0:11:04 > 0:11:11for 30 years. More taxes being paid than under the Labour years. One of

0:11:11 > 0:11:16the worst things that can happen to a child is to live in a workless

0:11:16 > 0:11:20household. The number of workless households has been shrinking. And

0:11:20 > 0:11:28implement is at its lowest level since 1975.-- unemployment. Theresa

0:11:28 > 0:11:32May, when she became Prime Minister last year, said this is a country of

0:11:32 > 0:11:37burning injustice.It is. There is always more to be done. You say it

0:11:37 > 0:11:41is in the past. This morning we have had an announcement that a

0:11:41 > 0:11:45considerable amount of extra money will be devoted in helping children

0:11:45 > 0:11:53facing mental health challenges in our schools. That is important as

0:11:53 > 0:11:56well in relation to social mobility. Of course there is more to be done.

0:11:56 > 0:11:58I think quite a lot of progress has been made on social mobility and

0:11:58 > 0:12:05should not forget that.Let's move on to wrecks it. You will have read

0:12:05 > 0:12:11reports that she will offer a divorce bill somewhere between 40

0:12:11 > 0:12:14billion and 50 billion euros, maybe slightly more. You said back in

0:12:14 > 0:12:18April that you would be astonished if the bill was anything like 50

0:12:18 > 0:12:24billion euros for the you must be producer prize.We all started off

0:12:24 > 0:12:33with aspirations. -- you must be pretty surprised. I do not know what

0:12:33 > 0:12:38the sum will be. Whatever it is it will be a fraction of the amount we

0:12:38 > 0:12:42have paid into the European Union over the last 40 years and would pay

0:12:42 > 0:12:49into the European Union for the next 40.You are now fairly relaxed about

0:12:49 > 0:12:55something around this mark?I have confidence in the Prime Minister and

0:12:55 > 0:12:58David Davis. I want to let them decide what is the best deal. I'm

0:12:58 > 0:13:04confident we'll get a good deal. I'm confident in the Prime Minister and

0:13:04 > 0:13:10David Davies.You know the more money we spend on the divorce the

0:13:10 > 0:13:20more bashes nevertheless many we have to spend on other things. Our

0:13:20 > 0:13:24guest last week felt it had to be delivered to keep faith in the

0:13:24 > 0:13:29process.In the budget a few days ago the Government promised more

0:13:29 > 0:13:35than an extra £350 million for the health service, running into almost

0:13:35 > 0:13:42£2 billion.They did not promise that in the budget?Over time, more

0:13:42 > 0:13:46money will be available when we are out. These payments, I don't know

0:13:46 > 0:13:50what the sum would be, are going to be spread out over many years. The

0:13:50 > 0:13:54annual bill will not be anything like that. In the end there will be

0:13:54 > 0:14:01more money to spend on the health service and other desirable things

0:14:01 > 0:14:03because we will not have to make this very large, annual contribution

0:14:03 > 0:14:09we were making.You have always been a committed Eurosceptic. Do not

0:14:09 > 0:14:13worry that the European Union seem to be having it their way? They

0:14:13 > 0:14:17wanted to discuss divorce before the trade deals. We agreed to that. The

0:14:17 > 0:14:23divorce bill seems to have gone up substantially since Theresa May was

0:14:23 > 0:14:26speaking in her Florence speech. They are getting what they want as

0:14:26 > 0:14:32we are going through the process and we seem to be capitulating.I do not

0:14:32 > 0:14:37think that is fair. There is a huge amount of posturing, which always

0:14:37 > 0:14:40goes on in negotiations. The approach of the European Union is in

0:14:40 > 0:14:47breach of Article 50. Article 50 says the arrangements for the

0:14:47 > 0:14:51departure of a member state have to take into account the future

0:14:51 > 0:14:55relationship of that state with the European Union. You cannot take

0:14:55 > 0:14:59something into account if you are not prepared to talk about it. They

0:14:59 > 0:15:05are in breach of Article 50. That is the approach they have chosen. I am

0:15:05 > 0:15:11confident. I think we will move forward to the next phase, to pursue

0:15:11 > 0:15:14Tom's analogy, I hope they will not be injury time at the end of the

0:15:14 > 0:15:27first half and I hope we will get an agreement this month and then we can

0:15:27 > 0:15:29start talking turkey.Do you agree with the leave means leave letter in

0:15:29 > 0:15:32the paper today without demanding the UK be free to sign employment

0:15:32 > 0:15:35trade deals and note end to restriction is by the European Court

0:15:35 > 0:15:42of Justice?I share the aspirations contained in the letter.You did not

0:15:42 > 0:15:51sign it.No.Did they ask you to? No. I am not inclined to make

0:15:51 > 0:15:55demands at this stage. I think they should be allowed to get on with the

0:15:55 > 0:15:59negotiations. I have confidence in their ability to do so. I'm

0:15:59 > 0:16:03confident that in the end will get a good deal in the interests of the UK

0:16:03 > 0:16:07and of the European Union because there is a great commonality of

0:16:07 > 0:16:12interest between the two of us to have a good relationship, a deep and

0:16:12 > 0:16:17special relationship the Prime Minister has spoken of.You are

0:16:17 > 0:16:21trying not to be a back-seat driver. As a former leader of the Tory Party

0:16:21 > 0:16:25you probably understand how annoying that will be that you are an

0:16:25 > 0:16:30interested party entitled to your view on this. Iain Duncan Smith is

0:16:30 > 0:16:33in the papers saying how important it is to end the authority of the

0:16:33 > 0:16:44European Court of Justice. Is that a red line for you?

0:16:44 > 0:16:47I have every confidence in the Prime Minister and in David Davis and I

0:16:47 > 0:16:50think they will end up with a good deal.They're just going to pick up

0:16:50 > 0:16:57with our panel here. Listening to Michael Howard there, very carefully

0:16:57 > 0:17:02trying not to step on the Prime Minister's toes, but clearly he

0:17:02 > 0:17:06shares some sympathy with people who do want to put some red lines on

0:17:06 > 0:17:11her?I know Michael Howard is a forensic follower of politics, so

0:17:11 > 0:17:15I'm surprised he is completely confident about Theresa May

0:17:15 > 0:17:18delivering this, given that when she returned from the last summit, when

0:17:18 > 0:17:23she made her House of Commons statement, she was clear, to my

0:17:23 > 0:17:27surprise, actually, that during the transition, I am not surprised in

0:17:27 > 0:17:31how it turned out but I am surprised she was so clear, that the European

0:17:31 > 0:17:36court would hold some sway. It has two, because if the transition is to

0:17:36 > 0:17:41be effective, it means one way or another we will still sort of be in

0:17:41 > 0:17:44the single market and Customs union for a time and therefore the

0:17:44 > 0:17:48European court will hold some sway. And she said it. I saw Jacob

0:17:48 > 0:17:53Rees-Mogg's response of horror. But she did say it. And so that is

0:17:53 > 0:17:56already I think part of the equation. So the response of her

0:17:56 > 0:18:06Brexiteers on this will be pivotal. Iain Duncan Smith is not alone in

0:18:06 > 0:18:08being absolutely resolute that the ECJ will have nothing to do with

0:18:08 > 0:18:12Britain?Absolutely, and I think that the concern amongst the harder

0:18:12 > 0:18:18line Brexiteers is that this transitional arrangement is a

0:18:18 > 0:18:21continuation of the status quo, and that it might even slip. Now, the

0:18:21 > 0:18:24Prime Minister has try to be reassuring on that, and there have

0:18:24 > 0:18:30been indications it might slip a few weeks but definitely not longer. But

0:18:30 > 0:18:37I think that Brexit MPs want more assurances that this will not end up

0:18:37 > 0:18:40just being kicked into the long grass.Will those assurances be

0:18:40 > 0:18:43given?I don't think they will be. She is going to have to compromise.

0:18:43 > 0:18:48The other choice is to walk away. A perfectly admirable choice but it is

0:18:48 > 0:18:52a choice she needs to make. The interesting question is, what do

0:18:52 > 0:18:58these people plan to do about it? What does Michael Howard plan to do

0:18:58 > 0:19:06if the £45 billion bill, which he is now accepting, it would appear, the

0:19:06 > 0:19:10four MPs and some other quite senior party figures, what do they plan to

0:19:10 > 0:19:14do if the Prime Minister compromises? Will they vote against

0:19:14 > 0:19:21it, will they put their considerable legislative weight, which Michael

0:19:21 > 0:19:24Howard could do in the House of Lords, against it?Even though

0:19:24 > 0:19:29you're being very diplomatic today, is there a point at which you would

0:19:29 > 0:19:33speak out if something you saw as fundamentally unacceptable occurred?

0:19:33 > 0:19:38That is a very hypothetical question, Sarah!The idea that you

0:19:38 > 0:19:42might find something out of Brussels being unacceptable is hypothetical?

0:19:42 > 0:19:49Lets wait and see. I have said and I am in danger of repeating myself, I

0:19:49 > 0:19:53have every confidence in the Prime Minister and in David Davis. I think

0:19:53 > 0:19:59we will end up with a good deal. You would in expect in negotiations like

0:19:59 > 0:20:05this an awful lot of posturing.Let me into you because I need to ask

0:20:05 > 0:20:10you about one other thing before we go. Damian Green, you will know

0:20:10 > 0:20:15there have been more stories reported this week around the

0:20:15 > 0:20:16accusation that he viewed pornography on a Parliamentary

0:20:16 > 0:20:21computer, something he absolutely resolutely denies. If it is

0:20:21 > 0:20:23discovered that he wasn't telling the truth when he told the Prime

0:20:23 > 0:20:29Minister he hadn't done this, would it be a resigning matter?I don't

0:20:29 > 0:20:33know, that is another hypothetical question. Damian was my

0:20:33 > 0:20:36Parliamentary neighbour for many years, he has denied it and I

0:20:36 > 0:20:40believe him and I agree with those very senior figures yesterday who

0:20:40 > 0:20:44condemned the leaking of information by these retired police officers. I

0:20:44 > 0:20:51think that's a very serious matter indeed. Policing in this country is

0:20:51 > 0:21:02based on trust between the police and the public. And if we have...

0:21:02 > 0:21:06Michael Howard, thank you very much for talking to us.

0:21:06 > 0:21:09The EU has warned Theresa May that she must satisfy Irish demands,

0:21:09 > 0:21:12if the Brexit negotiations are to move forward this week.

0:21:12 > 0:21:14But ahead of a crucial meeting between Theresa May

0:21:14 > 0:21:17and Jean-Claude Juncker tomorrow, it seems there is still work to do.

0:21:17 > 0:21:18Here's the Irish Foreign Minister, Simon Coveney,

0:21:18 > 0:21:24speaking this morning.

0:21:24 > 0:21:29There is no desire in Ireland to delay this process. But at the same

0:21:29 > 0:21:32time we have irresponsibility as a government to represent the

0:21:32 > 0:21:36interests on the island of Ireland, north and south. Let's not forget

0:21:36 > 0:21:39that next year will be the 20th anniversary of the Good Friday

0:21:39 > 0:21:42Agreement, which is the basis for the peace process, and relations

0:21:42 > 0:21:46between Britain and Ireland on the island of Ireland. And we believe

0:21:46 > 0:21:52that as an island, Ireland is uniquely vulnerable and exposed to a

0:21:52 > 0:21:57potential bad outcome from Brexit.

0:21:57 > 0:21:59With me now is the Shadow International Trade

0:21:59 > 0:22:05Secretary, Barry Gardiner.

0:22:05 > 0:22:08Obviously, it is absolutely crucial that a resolution is found to this

0:22:08 > 0:22:11problem - what is Labour's position? I think you have to proceed here on

0:22:11 > 0:22:16the basis of principles. The first principle is, do nothing that

0:22:16 > 0:22:19damages the peace process. The second principle is, do nothing that

0:22:19 > 0:22:26averages the economy. And by that I mean both the economy and Northern

0:22:26 > 0:22:32Ireland, in Ireland as a whole and in the UK and Ireland as a whole.

0:22:32 > 0:22:38Now, that means that we have to... But that's the impossible conundrum,

0:22:38 > 0:22:41how to do all of those things at once?It can't be impossible,

0:22:41 > 0:22:43because we've got to do it. Of course it is being made much more

0:22:43 > 0:22:47difficult by the government's red lines on this. And the government

0:22:47 > 0:22:52has stated very publicly and clearly that it wants to come out of the

0:22:52 > 0:22:55customs union and the single market. And of course, what actually creates

0:22:55 > 0:23:00checks at the border is when you have regulator we variants and when

0:23:00 > 0:23:04you have product standards that are different. So, that means that you

0:23:04 > 0:23:07have to check what's coming in and out for any tariffs that you wish to

0:23:07 > 0:23:14impose. Now, that's why it has been, I think and my party thinks, foolish

0:23:14 > 0:23:18to have removed the structural possibilities which lie in the

0:23:18 > 0:23:24customs union or the single market, from what the government's

0:23:24 > 0:23:29negotiating position is.That's very interesting, because I can see

0:23:29 > 0:23:32clearly, and so can the Irish government, exactly how staying in

0:23:32 > 0:23:35the customs union and the single market would help resolve the

0:23:35 > 0:23:38question for the island of Ireland, but also it raises questions for the

0:23:38 > 0:23:42United Kingdom. It is also interesting because if we have a

0:23:42 > 0:23:45look at what you say back in July, who didn't sound quite as pleased

0:23:45 > 0:23:50about the single market, when you said we would in effect become a

0:23:50 > 0:23:55vassal state, obliged to pay into the EU budget and having even less

0:23:55 > 0:23:59sovereignty than we do now - you weren't so keen on the single market

0:23:59 > 0:24:02then?I am not so keen on the single market membership as opposed to

0:24:02 > 0:24:05being a member of the EU. Single market membership without being a

0:24:05 > 0:24:10member of the EU means that you do not have a say in the rules which

0:24:10 > 0:24:14you have to abide by.But we're leaving the EU, let's take that as a

0:24:14 > 0:24:20given.Let's talk about where we are going forward. I was setting out

0:24:20 > 0:24:25very clearly, and I don't think you would disagree with what I said, I

0:24:25 > 0:24:28was setting out very clearly the applications of leaving the EU in

0:24:28 > 0:24:31the way that the government had set out. And those implications are

0:24:31 > 0:24:37clear. I believe I set them out correctly. Where we are now is, we

0:24:37 > 0:24:41have to find a solution to this problem. Simon Coveney was actually

0:24:41 > 0:24:45earlier very clear in saying that you don't have to have a full

0:24:45 > 0:24:51solution in phase one, but there has to be the real expectation that

0:24:51 > 0:24:57we're going to be able to resolve it in phase two. The first thing that

0:24:57 > 0:25:00both sides need to say here is that we will look at the Common Travel

0:25:00 > 0:25:03Area, which has existed since 1922, and that should be part and parcel

0:25:03 > 0:25:06of the deal going forward. The second element that I think is

0:25:06 > 0:25:12really important here is to understand precisely what the peace

0:25:12 > 0:25:17settlement was, when in the Good Friday Agreement in 1998 we set out

0:25:17 > 0:25:21that there should be no security checks at the border. That was

0:25:21 > 0:25:25critically important. But of course, security checks in those days were

0:25:25 > 0:25:28in place because of the situation, the military, paramilitary

0:25:28 > 0:25:34situation. But when those security checks were taken away, because we

0:25:34 > 0:25:40were members of the single market and because we were members of the

0:25:40 > 0:25:43customs union, there were no additional customs checks. Now, to

0:25:43 > 0:25:45say that you order the Good Friday Agreement and have no security

0:25:45 > 0:25:50checks, with all the military paraphernalia that goes with that,

0:25:50 > 0:25:58does not mean that you cannot have typified customs checks. But those

0:25:58 > 0:26:01customs checks will only be put in place if the government wants to

0:26:01 > 0:26:07deregulate. My party doesn't. My party doesn't want to deregulate, we

0:26:07 > 0:26:13don't want to impose these terrorists. The government is in a

0:26:13 > 0:26:16bind here, because most of the key players around of Brexit want to

0:26:16 > 0:26:20deregulate, and that means there have to be tariffs, and that means

0:26:20 > 0:26:23they have to be imposed at a border. Jeremy Corbyn yesterday refused to

0:26:23 > 0:26:28rule out the possibility of a second referendum on our EU membership - is

0:26:28 > 0:26:33it now the Labour Party's policy that we might vote again on this?

0:26:33 > 0:26:36No, it's not.Why did he say we have not made any decision on a second

0:26:36 > 0:26:40referendum?That precisely says that it is not, because policy because we

0:26:40 > 0:26:47have not made a decision on it!You could make a decision Ameobi not to

0:26:47 > 0:26:49have a second referendum?Let's be absolutely upfront about this. The

0:26:49 > 0:26:55idea that you would have a second referendum, I think you would say

0:26:55 > 0:26:57you were going to have a second referendum. Like the Liberal

0:26:57 > 0:27:02Democrats have done. That would be to encourage the EU to give you the

0:27:02 > 0:27:08worst possible deal that there was, so that when you're then voted on

0:27:08 > 0:27:13it, everybody would say, we can't possibly go there. The key thing, in

0:27:13 > 0:27:19my view, is that it was always foolish, always foolish, to have a

0:27:19 > 0:27:2350% class one referendum. Because if you are trying to...That's what we

0:27:23 > 0:27:27had, we are now looking at the future. I'm talking about the

0:27:27 > 0:27:33future. It sounds like Jeremy Corbyn is saying it is a possibility that

0:27:33 > 0:27:38Labour might call for one?I am trying to answer your question. I am

0:27:38 > 0:27:42not trying to avoid it. When we go forward, if we were to have another

0:27:42 > 0:27:45referendum on the same lines as we have had, and it were to be 52-48

0:27:45 > 0:27:51the other way, what would that achieve hammered absolutely nothing.

0:27:51 > 0:27:55It would then be game on for a third or fourth referendum. The only way

0:27:55 > 0:27:58in which in my view you could possibly contemplate a second

0:27:58 > 0:28:01referendum would be if you had a threshold which I believe should

0:28:01 > 0:28:06have been there in the first place of a two thirds majority. But that I

0:28:06 > 0:28:09stress is not Labour Party policy, it is not something that we've

0:28:09 > 0:28:16decided, and Jeremy Corbyn articulated that yesterday.Have you

0:28:16 > 0:28:19spoken to Diane Abbott, who has written to two constituents in the

0:28:19 > 0:28:24past month saying she would make the case for a second referendum?Diane

0:28:24 > 0:28:28has already said that letter was poorly worded Pozzo, as she called

0:28:28 > 0:28:35it. I will not make any further comment on it.

0:28:35 > 0:28:37The Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, came in for a bit

0:28:37 > 0:28:39of flak recently when he admitted that Labour was preparing

0:28:39 > 0:28:42for possible negative scenarios, such as a run on the pound,

0:28:42 > 0:28:46if it wins power.

0:28:46 > 0:28:50Speaking on the fringes of his party's conference, he said

0:28:50 > 0:28:53he was carrying out "war game-type scenario planning" in the event

0:28:53 > 0:28:54of an election victory.

0:28:54 > 0:28:55John McDonnell, the man helping Mr McDonald.

0:28:55 > 0:28:58Well, the man helping Mr McDonnell do that is

0:28:58 > 0:28:59the academic Richard Barbrook.

0:28:59 > 0:29:01He's also the man behind 'Games for the Many' -

0:29:01 > 0:29:03the political gaming studio that produced CorbynRun.

0:29:03 > 0:29:08Ellie Price went along to meet him.

0:29:08 > 0:29:11You may have seen some of these during the election.

0:29:11 > 0:29:13In May Bot, the gamer helps the PM shoot, run and slide

0:29:13 > 0:29:14her way to dystopia.

0:29:14 > 0:29:18And then downloaded 150,000 times in the first week of

0:29:18 > 0:29:20the campaign alone, Corbyn Run, which sees Jeremy Corbyn shaking

0:29:20 > 0:29:23down bankers to pay for policy pledges.

0:29:23 > 0:29:26And it's one of the things the Labour leadership think can win

0:29:26 > 0:29:29them the next election.

0:29:29 > 0:29:36It put an idea out there that you can actually

0:29:36 > 0:29:40engage in politics in a way which is both a good laugh,

0:29:40 > 0:29:42enjoy the game.

0:29:42 > 0:29:44But actually it is quite stimulating as well.

0:29:44 > 0:29:46What happened was, that prompted ideas about a

0:29:46 > 0:29:48fair taxation system and the policies that

0:29:48 > 0:29:49were being launched.

0:29:49 > 0:29:50It's new creative way into ideas.

0:29:50 > 0:29:53Are you worried that the Tories will catch on?

0:29:53 > 0:29:59They most probably will catch on.

0:29:59 > 0:30:02But it's not just about the medium, it is about the message as well.

0:30:02 > 0:30:03Richard, what is happening here?

0:30:03 > 0:30:05It's a games jam. Right.

0:30:05 > 0:30:06People are coming together to make app games,

0:30:06 > 0:30:09laptop games, board games, getting ready for the local elections in May

0:30:09 > 0:30:10to propagate Labour's message.

0:30:10 > 0:30:12And is it really working?

0:30:12 > 0:30:14You have 50-odd people here, that's hardly going to change the world.

0:30:14 > 0:30:15No.

0:30:15 > 0:30:20I'm from the punk generation.

0:30:20 > 0:30:21I'm from the punk generation.

0:30:21 > 0:30:25The first time I saw the Sex Pistols, there were 40 or 50

0:30:25 > 0:30:26people in the room.

0:30:26 > 0:30:28Then, in the late-80s, I went to the very early raves

0:30:28 > 0:30:31and again there were very small groups of people.

0:30:31 > 0:30:33Yet, in both cases, these cultures, you start off

0:30:33 > 0:30:35with small groups of people and they can suddenly

0:30:35 > 0:30:36become a mass phenomenom.

0:30:36 > 0:30:38And, I'm reliably informed, it isn't just for computer geeks.

0:30:38 > 0:30:41Yes, we've got people here who are activists and have

0:30:41 > 0:30:44never coded in their lives and they're using tools,

0:30:44 > 0:30:47with which you can make games with no coding skills.

0:30:47 > 0:30:50I'm not sure I believe you but here is a challenge.

0:30:50 > 0:30:51Can you make me a game?

0:30:51 > 0:30:52Yes, I can.

0:30:52 > 0:31:01The challenge begins.

0:31:01 > 0:31:02OK.

0:31:02 > 0:31:03I'm done.

0:31:03 > 0:31:05That took less than half an hour.

0:31:05 > 0:31:06Can I see it?

0:31:06 > 0:31:07Yeah, of course.

0:31:07 > 0:31:10You go up to John and he says, "We're making games to change the

0:31:10 > 0:31:11face of politics."

0:31:11 > 0:31:14Then you go up to Jeremy and he says, "for the many,

0:31:14 > 0:31:15not the few."

0:31:15 > 0:31:18OK, so it's not exactly Super Mario but Labour are looking

0:31:18 > 0:31:20at another kind of gaming, so-called war-gaming.

0:31:20 > 0:31:23Considering possible future scenarios.

0:31:23 > 0:31:25Something John McDonnell talked about at the last

0:31:25 > 0:31:28Labour Conference.

0:31:28 > 0:31:33What if there is a run on the pound, what happens if

0:31:33 > 0:31:34there is this concept of capital flight?

0:31:34 > 0:31:37I don't think there will but you never know

0:31:37 > 0:31:41so we've got a scenario planned for that.

0:31:41 > 0:31:43Richard is also part of the Shadow Treasury

0:31:43 > 0:31:46war-gaming team, who are expected to meet again in the next few weeks.

0:31:46 > 0:31:50If people are going to trust us with their jobs and their pensions

0:31:50 > 0:31:51and their livelihoods, we've got to show

0:31:51 > 0:31:53we know what we are doing.

0:31:53 > 0:31:57This seems like common sense to me.

0:31:57 > 0:32:00From games jams like these, Labour hoped to create a campaign

0:32:00 > 0:32:03tool that will take them to the next level - Downing Street.

0:32:03 > 0:32:06If politics is a game, there are novel ways to play.

0:32:06 > 0:32:12And Richard Barbrook joins me now.

0:32:12 > 0:32:17Thanks for coming in. John McDonnell said the conference he was working

0:32:17 > 0:32:21with you are looking at different scenarios I possibly around on the

0:32:21 > 0:32:28pound. It caused huge amount of controversy. Can you understand why?

0:32:28 > 0:32:33I was actually. Surprised that people are surprised that political

0:32:33 > 0:32:36parties are not doing this. The military, the civil service,

0:32:36 > 0:32:42Corporation Banks, they all do this. The surprise was one would imagine

0:32:42 > 0:32:45that a Labour government neither hoped nor predicted there would be a

0:32:45 > 0:32:53run on the pound and capital flight. Given the fanaticism of the present

0:32:53 > 0:32:56government, probably when we get elected, the pound would likely go

0:32:56 > 0:33:03up. You need to think about these problems beforehand. There are

0:33:03 > 0:33:08potential difficulties to foresee. You can scenario plan for those. You

0:33:08 > 0:33:13can read about problems coming up ahead and you can talk about them

0:33:13 > 0:33:19but actually to experience in a game like atmosphere, the pressures of

0:33:19 > 0:33:22making decisions... You can identify problems and think about solutions,

0:33:22 > 0:33:27try out ideas. If it does not work you can reiterate again and again

0:33:27 > 0:33:32and again.When the Treasury does something like this, with very

0:33:32 > 0:33:35complex statistical models and huge amounts of data, can you feed it

0:33:35 > 0:33:44into a scenario?You can on that basis. What you can do more is test

0:33:44 > 0:33:48the team coming together and seeing how it responds under pressure. A

0:33:48 > 0:33:52good example, if you think about the National Health Service. If it were

0:33:52 > 0:33:56a flu pandemic they would have to think about how to reallocate

0:33:56 > 0:34:00resources. There would be sickness amongst staff, more people going to

0:34:00 > 0:34:03hospitals and you get together a group of people responsible for

0:34:03 > 0:34:07running the NHS. You put them together and put them through a

0:34:07 > 0:34:13three-hour simulation of it and that is the same sort of thing we are

0:34:13 > 0:34:15doing. We are looking at what happens when Labour gets in, the

0:34:15 > 0:34:19first 100 days in power, for the first budget, what would you do?

0:34:19 > 0:34:24Whether it is a run on the pound or something, you create pressures and

0:34:24 > 0:34:29problems for them to create the idea of how they have to operate as a

0:34:29 > 0:34:34team.Does that give you the opportunity to stress test some of

0:34:34 > 0:34:37the more radical policies that Labour came up with in the last

0:34:37 > 0:34:41manifesto like nationalising the water companies or electricity firms

0:34:41 > 0:34:53or something like that?It is only maybe in this media bubble in

0:34:53 > 0:34:55Britain that we think neoliberalism is the only alternative.Those are

0:34:55 > 0:34:58to mainstream for you to bother about?I said the initial simulation

0:34:58 > 0:35:02as any of the first 100 days we are looking at how we would put together

0:35:02 > 0:35:10a budget. That is not really what the focus is. It is making it

0:35:10 > 0:35:14happen, the decision-making process. That is what you are trying to train

0:35:14 > 0:35:18people for. The military does this, the civil service does this put up

0:35:18 > 0:35:25if you do not do this you are in a very bad position. The election, the

0:35:25 > 0:35:28Liberal Democrats did no contingency planning as to what would happen if

0:35:28 > 0:35:34there were a hung parliament but the civil service did. They ripped

0:35:34 > 0:35:38people into becoming a junior appendage of the Tory Party with the

0:35:38 > 0:35:44disastrous results that came from that.Is this the kind of

0:35:44 > 0:35:47discussions that a Shadow Cabinet would be having in the run-up to the

0:35:47 > 0:35:52general election anyway? That is that fundamental job of an

0:35:52 > 0:35:58opposition.This is a fundamental method of doing it. You are just

0:35:58 > 0:36:02surprised that a political parties doing this. If you are the military

0:36:02 > 0:36:07or the civil service you use this tool. You are just surprised... I am

0:36:07 > 0:36:11surprised that you are surprised. The other thing you are doing

0:36:11 > 0:36:17separate from the war game scenario, the apps and the games go further --

0:36:17 > 0:36:25which you say can further political engagement, are they really

0:36:25 > 0:36:36spreading a message?A good example is the Jeremy Corbyn ran.I have

0:36:36 > 0:36:43played that. It is about mugging bankers in the streets.Why we have

0:36:43 > 0:36:48austerities is about the tax cuts. You reverse that and you campaign

0:36:48 > 0:36:51fuel social programme. In doing so, it shows that you are more

0:36:51 > 0:36:55successful in raising revenue can unlock certain pledges and people

0:36:55 > 0:37:01join your campaign.Stay there if you will. I will come to the panel.

0:37:01 > 0:37:05Do you think this sounds like a useful, political tool, to sit there

0:37:05 > 0:37:11in a game like atmosphere and work hard to intimate radical programme

0:37:11 > 0:37:15for government?Yes. It sounds sensible and not the only thing they

0:37:15 > 0:37:20are doing. I can see them Maya city of John McDonnell was to speak aloud

0:37:20 > 0:37:26in any context about a potential run on the pound. -- naivete. To prepare

0:37:26 > 0:37:33for eventualities, prepare for the first 100 days by using all kinds of

0:37:33 > 0:37:39devices, is highly sensible.Even if it has been publicised to working

0:37:39 > 0:37:45with games developers.You kept going on about military, war-gaming

0:37:45 > 0:37:49exercises. I am co-authoring a book on defence at the moment. In one of

0:37:49 > 0:37:55the most important recent war-gaming exercises we did with the Americans,

0:37:55 > 0:37:59we were wiped out within a day because our targeting policy was so

0:37:59 > 0:38:04outdated. I think the fear in the city is exactly that would happen

0:38:04 > 0:38:06economically

0:38:06 > 0:38:13policy is so outdated.I will let you respond to that and ask you

0:38:13 > 0:38:20another question as well.She is just the Tory Troll.I'm not a

0:38:20 > 0:38:29member of the Tory Party. No reason to be impolite to people. If Morgan

0:38:29 > 0:38:35Stanley came here and said we want to game out what a Labour government

0:38:35 > 0:38:39would mean for business, would you do that?I would not do it but I

0:38:39 > 0:38:42would be very surprised if they are not

0:38:42 > 0:38:48not already doing that.Thank you for coming in to talk to us.

0:38:48 > 0:38:49It's coming up to 11:40am.

0:38:49 > 0:38:50You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:38:50 > 0:38:52Coming up on the programme...

0:38:52 > 0:38:55We sent the Sunday Politics moodbox - our unscientific poll

0:38:55 > 0:38:57featuring plastic balls - to South West London.

0:38:57 > 0:38:58After polling suggested the Conservative Party

0:38:58 > 0:39:00aren't seen as "caring", we asked people in

0:39:00 > 0:39:02Putney what they value more in politicians -

0:39:02 > 0:39:03competence or compassion?

0:39:03 > 0:39:05I think that anybody who is in parliament

0:39:05 > 0:39:07should be confident, otherwise they shouldn't be an MP in

0:39:07 > 0:39:14the first place, whatever party they are.

0:39:14 > 0:39:15-- competent.

0:39:15 > 0:39:16Do they have enough compassion?

0:39:16 > 0:39:17Hm?

0:39:28 > 0:39:30Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.

0:39:30 > 0:39:31Irish politicians been involved in plenty

0:39:31 > 0:39:32of negotiation deadlines

0:39:32 > 0:39:39over the years - but nothing quite like this.

0:39:39 > 0:39:46This is why the key to the UK future lies in Dublin in some ways.At

0:39:46 > 0:39:51least as far as negotiations were wrecked it go. A shrug for Brexit

0:39:51 > 0:39:52go.

0:39:52 > 0:39:54As we enter into a crucial phase in the future relationships

0:39:54 > 0:39:56between these islands and Europe.

0:39:56 > 0:39:58I'll be speaking to the Sinn Fein MEP,

0:39:58 > 0:39:59Martina Anderson, and Conservative MP, Nigel Mills.

0:40:00 > 0:40:08my studio guests are Newton Emerson and Patricia MacBride.

0:40:08 > 0:40:10As the talks between the British government

0:40:10 > 0:40:13and the European Union enter what's been described as a critical phase

0:40:13 > 0:40:16ahead of Thesea May's meeting with European Commission President

0:40:16 > 0:40:20Jean-Claude Junker tomorrow - are we any closer to getting

0:40:20 > 0:40:22a deal on the border?

0:40:22 > 0:40:24The European Council President, Donald Tusk, stood side-by-side

0:40:24 > 0:40:27with the Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, in Dublin on Friday and made it

0:40:27 > 0:40:29clear that if the UK offer is unacceptable for Ireland it

0:40:29 > 0:40:33will be unacceptable for the European Union too.

0:40:33 > 0:40:36So can negotiators come up with a form of words

0:40:36 > 0:40:37that IS acceptable to both sides?

0:40:37 > 0:40:41I'm joined from our Foyle Studioby the Sinn Fein MEP, Martina Anderson,

0:40:41 > 0:40:43and from Nottingham by the Conservative MP,

0:40:43 > 0:40:49Nigel Mills...

0:40:49 > 0:40:57Welcome.What is your reaction to Donald Tusk's statement? Does it put

0:40:57 > 0:41:03pressure on Theresa May?It is heightening the rhetoric. Not sure

0:41:03 > 0:41:08it was constructive or a positive way forward, we accept the Irish

0:41:08 > 0:41:13government don't want Brexit and they are entitled to act in their

0:41:13 > 0:41:17own national interest but it is clear to all that the way we get the

0:41:17 > 0:41:20best possible border on the island of Ireland is to have the most

0:41:20 > 0:41:25combines a free trade deal that we can. If we can't move on to those

0:41:25 > 0:41:29talks it looks like the UK Government will have to say well, if

0:41:29 > 0:41:33there is no progress if the aren't serious about the trading coalition

0:41:33 > 0:41:37then we will have to work for no deal.Just because you don't like

0:41:37 > 0:41:42what Mr Tusk has disabled doesn't mean it is rhetoric of course.I

0:41:42 > 0:41:48think it is a strong use of words to try and say there hasn't been enough

0:41:48 > 0:41:53progress, the UK Government has pretty clearly said we don't want a

0:41:53 > 0:41:57border, we won't put one on the island of Ireland, and we want free

0:41:57 > 0:42:02trading arrangement and the EU have made no alternative suggestions but

0:42:02 > 0:42:07keep asking for more forms of words. Suggestions are supposed to come

0:42:07 > 0:42:11from the UK Government because it is the UK that are leaving the EU, that

0:42:11 > 0:42:15is the point. You can't have a negotiation where once I put up

0:42:15 > 0:42:21ideas and just says no the other side.We have come up with creative

0:42:21 > 0:42:25ideas, with creative solutions do no terrace and we are beds to enforce

0:42:25 > 0:42:33them, and in business premises away from the border, and prepared to

0:42:33 > 0:42:38exempt all small regional businesses about 80% of more of businesses. We

0:42:38 > 0:42:42have come up with creative ideas that we think could be done and it

0:42:42 > 0:42:46has always been met with known, say something else. We can't progress

0:42:46 > 0:42:53unless the other side says something else.It's not just the EU, it's not

0:42:53 > 0:42:57just Leo Varadkar Alan Donald does cut are saying this. The House of

0:42:57 > 0:43:02Commons committee on the exit is not happy either. It says it is

0:43:02 > 0:43:07understand speculative.That was a split report where half of the team

0:43:07 > 0:43:13said...That was the rule of the committee.The EU have said we want

0:43:13 > 0:43:17creative and flexible negotiations because this hasn't done before so

0:43:17 > 0:43:21by definition we have to come up with is ideas that haven't been

0:43:21 > 0:43:24tested. This seems a unique situation do have a member state

0:43:24 > 0:43:31leaving the EU rather than joining it so it makes sense we have a

0:43:31 > 0:43:33different solution. I think what the EU wanted was something more

0:43:33 > 0:43:40radical, and unless we do that there is criticism it hasn't been tested.

0:43:40 > 0:43:44Let me bring in Martina Anderson. It is time for the Irish government or

0:43:44 > 0:43:47the EU to come up with some proposals of their own. The UK

0:43:47 > 0:43:52Government has done all it can do at this stage in the process. Well, if

0:43:52 > 0:43:57that is the measure of what the British Government has done then it

0:43:57 > 0:44:02is little wonder that we are the way that we are today.That is

0:44:02 > 0:44:06potentially heading towards a mess. Many of us want to move into the

0:44:06 > 0:44:11next phase of negotiations but Europe has been very clear and

0:44:11 > 0:44:15particularly the European Parliament as has the council that the Good

0:44:15 > 0:44:18Friday Agreement needs to be protected in all of its parts. And

0:44:18 > 0:44:22what the British Government has proposed or so far proposed to put

0:44:22 > 0:44:29on the table has been contradictory impositions. One hand it has said it

0:44:29 > 0:44:32wants to pursue the Good Friday Agreement but then goes onto say

0:44:32 > 0:44:37that it pulling the north out of the customs union and the single market.

0:44:37 > 0:44:41Sinn Fein has presented a reasonable and rational case that can be

0:44:41 > 0:44:48delivered and that is for the north to remain within the EU.You know

0:44:48 > 0:44:51very well that Unionists do not want to consider anything that would lead

0:44:51 > 0:44:55to in their eyes the demolition of the constitutional position of

0:44:55 > 0:44:59Northern Ireland. You have a problem with the proposals that you up on

0:44:59 > 0:45:05the table because that is piously what they do.-- precisely. It is

0:45:05 > 0:45:09political union is that is the problem.It's the British

0:45:09 > 0:45:16Government?No, an opinion poll recently stated quite clearly that

0:45:16 > 0:45:20the majority of the unionist people would accept a border in the Irish

0:45:20 > 0:45:27Sea. We already have a border in the Irish Sea of trade that takes place

0:45:27 > 0:45:32between the north and Britain. There is already in practice in place, a

0:45:32 > 0:45:38system in place whether it is for plants and plant produce or animals

0:45:38 > 0:45:44or animal produce, whatever it is there our borders controls already.

0:45:44 > 0:45:48At Belfast Harbour and Belfast City Airport. So therefore there is a

0:45:48 > 0:45:53solution to this problem that ensures that the north stays in the

0:45:53 > 0:45:57single market and the customs union and the majority of the unionist

0:45:57 > 0:46:02people and the nationalist People's support that as the way forward. Let

0:46:02 > 0:46:08me put that to Nigel them. It is a reasonable and deliverable case.

0:46:08 > 0:46:13Nigel, how do you respond to that? There is nothing different at all in

0:46:13 > 0:46:17the proposals coming from the Irish side as far as solving this issue

0:46:17 > 0:46:22concerns, that are anyway different in what is in practice. That is a

0:46:22 > 0:46:27stretch, isn't it.The UK is committed as a whole to the union

0:46:27 > 0:46:32and its is what will happen. I don't think there is any precedent for any

0:46:32 > 0:46:40country to be an other parts of a customs union.That is wrong. There

0:46:40 > 0:46:43are 25 overseas territories in the EU and each of them have a different

0:46:43 > 0:46:49relationship with Europe. Greenland for example, Ford Denmark for

0:46:49 > 0:46:51example, what, for instance the legal advice has shown that could

0:46:51 > 0:46:57have Denmark refreshed. What I'm concerned about is the ignorance

0:46:57 > 0:47:02from people like yourself that you don't know that Europe is quite

0:47:02 > 0:47:05willing to have a flexible and imaginative solution which results

0:47:05 > 0:47:10in special status. Or whatever one wants to call it. That would be

0:47:10 > 0:47:15afforded to the people of Northern Ireland in this context.What is

0:47:15 > 0:47:18wrong, Nigel Mills was the bespoke solution for Northern Ireland that

0:47:18 > 0:47:25actually advantages people who live here rather than disadvantages them?

0:47:25 > 0:47:29This hasn't been done to have two parts of the same country in two

0:47:29 > 0:47:32different customs unions. In actual fact the Northern Ireland should

0:47:32 > 0:47:43come economy dart come on, Martina, Denmark is a different country.

0:47:43 > 0:47:46Northern Ireland has an extremely large and important trading link. If

0:47:46 > 0:47:50you create a customs border between them that is a serious advantage to

0:47:50 > 0:47:57the Norwich Irish -- Northern Irish economy. I don't think splitting a

0:47:57 > 0:48:01country economically is a realistic solution and would be bad for the

0:48:01 > 0:48:04economy was it will be impossible politically.That is what you are

0:48:04 > 0:48:08trying to do with the island of Ireland. What we have proposed is a

0:48:08 > 0:48:14situation.We don't need a border. Let's live in the real world. Let's

0:48:14 > 0:48:18talk about the free trade arrangements, the EU has made clear

0:48:18 > 0:48:22that if you want to leave the EU you cannot expect to have its cake and

0:48:22 > 0:48:26eat it, at can't go and retain all of the benefits of membership. What

0:48:26 > 0:48:29part of that is difficult to understand.We aren't asking to

0:48:29 > 0:48:34retain membership but asking for the best free-trade deal in the interest

0:48:34 > 0:48:39of all members, in the same way that they have done with many other

0:48:39 > 0:48:45countries. The EU has a trade surplus with the UK. We aren't

0:48:45 > 0:48:49asking for anything particularly difficult but to carry on trading as

0:48:49 > 0:48:52previously. Everyone is agreed that there will be no border on the

0:48:52 > 0:48:57island of Ireland, no passport controls or anything, that won't

0:48:57 > 0:49:00happen, but it is the trading relationship that needs to work in

0:49:00 > 0:49:04the best way. I don't see how we can't work that out if we can't even

0:49:04 > 0:49:08talk about trade nearly nine months of the way through this period we

0:49:08 > 0:49:13can't start talking about what the trading deal will look like, or how

0:49:13 > 0:49:19to make it work.Have you read the Good Friday Agreement? Do you

0:49:19 > 0:49:25understand strand two?How do you understand of what Nigel has said

0:49:25 > 0:49:30that, the way it will be sorted out is to move on to substantive trade

0:49:30 > 0:49:34talks, phase two of the negotiations and then we will see the colour of

0:49:34 > 0:49:40people's money and then we can start to find solutions. To continue stuck

0:49:40 > 0:49:43on this seemingly intractable point doesn't take anyone anywhere? Surely

0:49:43 > 0:49:47there is a logic to what he is saying.Of course we need to move on

0:49:47 > 0:49:51to but sufficient no leg progress needs to be made on Northern

0:49:51 > 0:49:58Ireland. The Good Friday Agreement, strand two, the all Ireland Ireland

0:49:58 > 0:50:04part of the agreement, 142 areas of cooperation. What a Brexit border

0:50:04 > 0:50:11would do would be to damage for instance we have a situation where

0:50:11 > 0:50:16in now Gavin Hospital in Derry because of critical mass, and the

0:50:16 > 0:50:19island of Ireland in the north-west we have a radiotherapy unit

0:50:19 > 0:50:25servicing the island. We also have a children's heart surgery carried out

0:50:25 > 0:50:33in Dublin but there are all Ireland electricity markets and 142 areas of

0:50:33 > 0:50:40cooperation of which 100 of them all more are dependent on EU law and the

0:50:40 > 0:50:46European Court of Justice. We have to have, it is a no-brainer, to

0:50:46 > 0:50:50preserve and protect the Good Friday Agreement of the British Government

0:50:50 > 0:50:56is a co-guarantor. We have to have a special relationship with the EU in

0:50:56 > 0:51:00order for us to do no more than standstill.How do you respond to

0:51:00 > 0:51:07that, Nigel. The relationship that Martina has just raised, 150 Dillie

0:51:07 > 0:51:16Malherbe hundred and 42 -- 142 specific bespoke arrangements. How

0:51:16 > 0:51:21do you deal with that their hard border?Let's look at the

0:51:21 > 0:51:27Londonderry hospital referred to. That is the main hospital is parts

0:51:27 > 0:51:33of the Republic of Ireland. That is based on an actual deal is not

0:51:33 > 0:51:36reliant on any EU treaties so all those things can be worked through

0:51:36 > 0:51:42but strand one of the Good Friday Agreement gives the UK gives the lap

0:51:42 > 0:51:46sole competence on these affairs. What we are trying to do is find the

0:51:46 > 0:51:50best possible solution. If we can't talk about the very issues we need

0:51:50 > 0:51:59to resolve, we can't find a solution.Sammy Wilson of the DUP

0:51:59 > 0:52:02said last week that any attempt duplicates Dublin and the EU could

0:52:02 > 0:52:07be a withdrawal of DUP, the supply and confidence motion could be

0:52:07 > 0:52:17withdrawal. Is he bluffing? I am in no doubt he is entitled to his view.

0:52:17 > 0:52:27The DUP might be angry if the Northern Irish territories became a

0:52:27 > 0:52:30separate part of the United Kingdom and the EU. It is not practical

0:52:30 > 0:52:37however, so on issues like farming we could perhaps devolve powers to

0:52:37 > 0:52:41the Northern Irish assembly and they could have harmony and consistency

0:52:41 > 0:52:45with the European Union, that seems like a sensible way of going forward

0:52:45 > 0:52:49on those issues. It won't work with the fundamental constitutional laws

0:52:49 > 0:52:54and the problem is Martina knows is Sinn Fein have crashed the Northern

0:52:54 > 0:52:57Ireland assembly so there is no assembly to devolve powers to. It

0:52:57 > 0:53:05doesn't make it any easier?Let's be very clear. Why we are where we are

0:53:05 > 0:53:09today is because of allegations of corruption and difficulties that we

0:53:09 > 0:53:17have had in the assembly and on many many issues, and what we need is a

0:53:17 > 0:53:21good and practical city of governments that will deliver for

0:53:21 > 0:53:24all people. Sinn Fein will go into a rights -based assembly in the

0:53:24 > 0:53:29morning and what we have in partners in government are Brexit is who

0:53:29 > 0:53:32aren't even listening to their own people. Their own people who will

0:53:32 > 0:53:38accept a border, a deepening of the relationship that is already there,

0:53:38 > 0:53:41in practice that is there so that we don't have a ball border on the

0:53:41 > 0:53:49island. That is who the DUP needs to listen to as well as all of the

0:53:49 > 0:53:52people and represent all of the people of the north who voted

0:53:52 > 0:54:00overwhelmingly to remain.Nigel, final question, this summit on the

0:54:00 > 0:54:0414th and 15th of December, that is where the big decisions have to be

0:54:04 > 0:54:08taken. Apparently. We need real movements tomorrow if we are to hit

0:54:08 > 0:54:11that target state in the middle of the month. What do you expect to be

0:54:11 > 0:54:16on the table by Theresa May in her meeting with Jean-Claude Junker

0:54:16 > 0:54:19tomorrow?I think we reiterate the fact that we have no plans to have a

0:54:19 > 0:54:22hard border and we think that the best way of thinking that is to move

0:54:22 > 0:54:30to those trade talks. There has apparently been progress on the

0:54:30 > 0:54:35divorce Bill for example, and there is a commitment to no hard border,

0:54:35 > 0:54:39that is what we need to say and what we have done is responding to those

0:54:39 > 0:54:44offers and explain why they are acceptable.Thank you both.

0:54:44 > 0:54:46Let's hear what our studio guests think of that.

0:54:46 > 0:54:50Newton Emerson and Patricia MacBride are with me.

0:54:50 > 0:54:54Newton, can you square the circle after that? There was a lot of

0:54:54 > 0:55:02confused issues there.142 issues for example those won't all Ireland

0:55:02 > 0:55:08policies. They are devolved powers, and restrictions will be left up to

0:55:08 > 0:55:17us.And there is a political point behind that.The practical issue is

0:55:17 > 0:55:26trade however. Both were confused by the idea of a sea border meaning is

0:55:26 > 0:55:34staying in the customs union, but these are not either or situations.

0:55:34 > 0:55:38Port and border systems would allow us to leave the customs union but

0:55:38 > 0:55:42keep the land border open. That is the point, we're not talking about

0:55:42 > 0:55:45customs checks at the port Belfast but rather extra electronic

0:55:45 > 0:55:52paperwork that allows us foods to flows freely with minimal

0:55:52 > 0:55:58interference.Patricia, do you think bureaucrats who are quietly working

0:55:58 > 0:56:00away on proposals on both sides in this process of negotiation will

0:56:00 > 0:56:08come up with some kind of solution as Newton seems to suggest? Or

0:56:08 > 0:56:15duplicitous and is -- do politicians just not want to talk about it?I

0:56:15 > 0:56:19think there are three scenarios that are apparently not to be accepted.

0:56:19 > 0:56:25Not staying in the customs union, except a hard border on the island

0:56:25 > 0:56:28of Ireland or in the sea. One of those has given that is the reality

0:56:28 > 0:56:35of it. Newton talks about additional paperwork at the ports when goods

0:56:35 > 0:56:40are moved around. That may be the case in terms of checking the bona

0:56:40 > 0:56:44fides goods or whatever it is that's being moved but it doesn't address

0:56:44 > 0:56:48the issue of tariffs. I am certain that there is a lot of work going on

0:56:48 > 0:56:53in the background in terms of civil servants in Ireland and I would hope

0:56:53 > 0:56:59that the difference and the difficulty is that in terms of Irish

0:56:59 > 0:57:02diplomats they know the party line, they have a clear steer from the

0:57:02 > 0:57:07Irish government and the civil servants aren't sure what the

0:57:07 > 0:57:11ministers want and even today we hear confusing messages from people

0:57:11 > 0:57:15like Jacob Rees Mogg who doesn't really understand what's happening

0:57:15 > 0:57:19in Irish politics and is trying to throw a spanner into the works based

0:57:19 > 0:57:22on something that was settled five days ago regarding a no-confidence

0:57:22 > 0:57:28motion in the government.Are you an optimist in this? Are you saying

0:57:28 > 0:57:31that mutually exclusive positions are being set up, strawmen are being

0:57:31 > 0:57:37built but ultimately things will be resolved?Looking at Donald Tusk's

0:57:37 > 0:57:41statement in the Republic last week everyone focused on his support

0:57:41 > 0:57:44unity and strength for the Republic but also in that speech he conceded

0:57:44 > 0:57:50the UK to's main point is that trade talks can begin only with out a

0:57:50 > 0:57:57detailed answer on the board. That makes the sea border the big idea

0:57:57 > 0:58:00within which all the details can be hammered out and that will take a

0:58:00 > 0:58:03long time. Mostly what we need at this stage is a different term to

0:58:03 > 0:58:08see border, point of eight Unionist antagonism right now. It doesn't

0:58:08 > 0:58:11need to be is described that way. That's pause for

0:58:12 > 0:58:15Let's pause for a moment That's pause for a moment.

0:58:15 > 0:58:16and take a look back

0:58:16 > 0:58:19at the political week in 60 Seconds with Enda McClafferty...

0:58:19 > 0:58:24It appears there is no life left in the docks as Stormont goes into cold

0:58:24 > 0:58:30storage.We don't have a basis to enter into talks process.In the

0:58:30 > 0:58:36Dail it is all change on the front bench. Double jobbing Simon Coveney.

0:58:36 > 0:58:43Don't detect any changes to Dublin's stance on the border.No one can

0:58:43 > 0:58:46pretend Northern Ireland is indifferent. We need an incredible

0:58:46 > 0:58:50set of parameters within which we can solve the border issues.But the

0:58:50 > 0:58:54DUP is adamant.There won't be any special arrangement for Northern

0:58:54 > 0:59:00Ireland keeping us in the rules of a customs union or the single market.

0:59:00 > 0:59:03As politicians debate is just how special we are, did we get the first

0:59:03 > 0:59:10crack in the DUP Conservative pact? If there is any hint that an order

0:59:10 > 0:59:15to placate Dublin and the EU, they are prepared Northern Ireland trade

0:59:15 > 0:59:18differently than the rest of the United Kingdom than they can't rely

0:59:18 > 0:59:20on our vote.

0:59:22 > 0:59:28Let's go back to our guests for some final thoughts.

0:59:28 > 0:59:31That's talk about the DUP and their influence over the Conservatives at

0:59:31 > 0:59:37the moment, and it's stated position that it does not want to negotiate

0:59:37 > 0:59:42or resile from its public position on this critical issue for it as a

0:59:42 > 0:59:46Unionist party.Sammy Wilson's comment there is very telling. He

0:59:46 > 0:59:50sees that any negotiation or any issue around the border and

0:59:50 > 0:59:56concessions as he eased -- sees them would be to placate Dublin but the

0:59:56 > 1:00:02reality is it should be about protecting living here. That is

1:00:02 > 1:00:06where they need to focus. Something has to give therefrom my

1:00:06 > 1:00:12perspective. As the DUP said, the idea of rebranding some sort of

1:00:12 > 1:00:19control over the people and moving in the Irish Sea, that is perhaps

1:00:19 > 1:00:24the only solution. The DUP might have to come round to thinking them.

1:00:24 > 1:00:28If it involves a sweetener to move them, to say it is going to happen

1:00:28 > 1:00:31but it will be managed in such a way where it will be still in control,

1:00:31 > 1:00:36the idea of evolving regulatory powers to Stormont will not fly in

1:00:36 > 1:00:43my view because there is no workable assembly and that will effect a good

1:00:43 > 1:00:48change on the DUP.Do you agree, some kind of deal could be

1:00:48 > 1:00:51forthcoming, a financial package for Northern Ireland, and a way of

1:00:51 > 1:00:54explaining yet that doesn't look like a devolution of the union? That

1:00:54 > 1:01:01is critical clearly.There are practical objections, the cost of

1:01:01 > 1:01:07people's paperwork, hundreds of pounds, and ways of funding extra

1:01:07 > 1:01:11facilities at the border. One-off payments or ongoing payments to

1:01:11 > 1:01:19cover that... I disagree with Patricia that this may ignore

1:01:19 > 1:01:25Stormont's absence. It puts pressure on both party to come in and manage

1:01:25 > 1:01:29their situation. In terms of the DUP you need to listen to the range of

1:01:29 > 1:01:32opinions coming from them. Sammy won't believe there was and is

1:01:32 > 1:01:36trying to bring down the government but Nigel Dodds dodges the subject.

1:01:36 > 1:01:41He says he won't leave the customs union. Those things are not

1:01:41 > 1:01:44opposites and when you look at the range of opinions and see how the

1:01:44 > 1:01:47DUP leadership in particular are sounding I think they are getting

1:01:47 > 1:01:51ready for a fudge as well.What do you think, Patricia, we will see in

1:01:51 > 1:01:56the meeting between Theresa May and Jean-Claude Junker?I don't think we

1:01:56 > 1:02:00can parallel this to the negotiations, where deadlines keep

1:02:00 > 1:02:03getting shifted. I think the British will have deep pits down a clear

1:02:03 > 1:02:09marker as to the heads of agreement on the key issues around the border

1:02:09 > 1:02:13and around the divorce Bill as it were so that is what we have CC

1:02:13 > 1:02:16tomorrow in order to get to the 14th.Interesting to see what

1:02:16 > 1:02:16happens.

1:02:16 > 1:02:17That's it.

1:02:17 > 1:02:18Now back to Sarah in London....

1:02:25 > 1:02:27Welcome back.

1:02:27 > 1:02:33Tom, Isabel and Steve are still with me.

1:02:33 > 1:02:37Let's talk about a couple of the interviews we heard earlier in the

1:02:37 > 1:02:41programme. Let's start with Michael Howard. He was putting up a very

1:02:41 > 1:02:45strong defence of Damian Green and harsh criticism of the police who

1:02:45 > 1:02:50had been speaking out saying they had reservations about what Damian

1:02:50 > 1:02:56Green had been doing with his Parliamentary computer. We surprised

1:02:56 > 1:03:02at that, is about?Not at all. There is much support for Damian Green,

1:03:02 > 1:03:05including Labour MPs. It is in relation to how the police have

1:03:05 > 1:03:09behaved over this. There is discomfort among MPs about how the

1:03:09 > 1:03:13police were involved in this. Most people will have forgotten the

1:03:13 > 1:03:17various dramas around that some years ago when police were invited

1:03:17 > 1:03:22into the Commons over a leak investigation. MPs feel that was no

1:03:22 > 1:03:26place for officers to be and they are uncomfortable about the leaking

1:03:26 > 1:03:30of this confidential information. I think the question now is whether

1:03:30 > 1:03:35Damian Green has lied about what he did although she is ago. To me,

1:03:35 > 1:03:40personally, and too many Tory MPs, whether or not he viewed pawn ten

1:03:40 > 1:03:46years ago or however long it was ago, it was clearly inappropriate

1:03:46 > 1:03:50behaviour on an office computer. Perhaps if he had acknowledged it

1:03:50 > 1:03:54and said he was going through a hard time, he might get away with it. If

1:03:54 > 1:03:58it is proven he lied and he is finished, whether or not there are a

1:03:58 > 1:04:03lot of sympathetic MPs over the way he is being treated here.It is

1:04:03 > 1:04:08interesting how many MPs are sympathetic. David Davis has

1:04:08 > 1:04:18threatened to resign from the Cabinet is Damian Green went.This

1:04:18 > 1:04:23goes back ten, 15 years of Tory Party history. David Davis, Damian

1:04:23 > 1:04:28Green and Theresa May or worked very closely together. They were

1:04:28 > 1:04:31horrified about the immigration papers leaks. It was proven to be a

1:04:31 > 1:04:34pretty bad thing that was done and the police apologise. Moving on to

1:04:34 > 1:04:41where we are now, it strikes me that Theresa May is downed if she does

1:04:41 > 1:04:46find Damian Green for being a cover-up rather than the crime

1:04:46 > 1:04:51himself, he has made a series of statements about pornography on his

1:04:51 > 1:04:54computer, it is not the possession but how he tried to disguise it was

1:04:54 > 1:04:59there. If she fires him, then she will have terrible troubles with the

1:04:59 > 1:05:03likes of David Davis and people furious in the party, Andrew

1:05:03 > 1:05:08Mitchell furious that the police are calling the shots. If she does not

1:05:08 > 1:05:12fire him, as some ministers in government, some Tory MPs, who think

1:05:12 > 1:05:21it is impossible for him to stay on with the mess as it currently is and

1:05:21 > 1:05:23his inconsistencies. She has made this worse for herself by sitting

1:05:23 > 1:05:27on, if not the full report but the substance of it for some time now.

1:05:27 > 1:05:32You think surely has the report that has not looked at it yet.She has

1:05:32 > 1:05:35not seen the full report but has been kept up to date with where it

1:05:35 > 1:05:40is going and what the findings are. She has been forced to take a very

1:05:40 > 1:05:44tough decision, like Angela Merkel always has and survived in politics

1:05:44 > 1:05:50very well, by simply not taking that decision, sometimes it works

1:05:50 > 1:05:56brilliantly and events work-out but sometimes it gets deeper.Barry

1:05:56 > 1:06:01Gardner was talking about Labour's EU policies was that he would not

1:06:01 > 1:06:05rule out a second referendum. He made it clear it was not party

1:06:05 > 1:06:09policy at the moment. I was asking about Jeremy Corbyn saying he would

1:06:09 > 1:06:14not rule out a second referendum. Saying it was a possibility if there

1:06:14 > 1:06:20was a two thirds threshold on it, which is a new idea.The position of

1:06:20 > 1:06:24the Labour Party, and the smart one for the time being, is to do what

1:06:24 > 1:06:30Harold Wilson used to call keep all options open. If there are big cries

1:06:30 > 1:06:37for another referendum, opinion polls from some of them who voted

1:06:37 > 1:06:40Brexit when they see a deal, the Labour leadership will come around

1:06:40 > 1:06:45and say they will support a referendum. They are being wholly

1:06:45 > 1:06:49pragmatic about this, as most opposition parties are when dealing

1:06:49 > 1:06:53with Europe. Before 97, Tony Blair was in favour of the single currency

1:06:53 > 1:07:00but loving the pound. This ambiguity is a feature of politics in Europe.

1:07:00 > 1:07:07They are in a broadly smart position for now.Ambiguity, some might call

1:07:07 > 1:07:16it inconsistency.I call it cynicism myself.Can it work for them?It is

1:07:16 > 1:07:21extraordinary cynical. I have seen some lame polls of small samples

1:07:21 > 1:07:24which purport to show there is a contingency of people who want

1:07:24 > 1:07:29another referendum. It comes down to how you phrase the question. This

1:07:29 > 1:07:33was the biggest democratic mandate for a decision to be taken that we

1:07:33 > 1:07:39have had in history. Most people just want Brexit to get gone. I

1:07:39 > 1:07:44think there is an extraordinary 50 quid Brexit at the moment, even

1:07:44 > 1:07:48amongst the people who wanted to happen. People wanted over with nets

1:07:48 > 1:07:56get on with building the new feature for the country. -- and let's get

1:07:56 > 1:07:58on.

1:07:58 > 1:08:01Now, you know how the old cliche goes: if you're not a Liberal

1:08:01 > 1:08:03when you're young then you've no heart.

1:08:03 > 1:08:05And if you're not a Conservative when you're old,

1:08:05 > 1:08:06then you've no brain.

1:08:06 > 1:08:09Well, it seems the Conservative Party might be getting a bit

1:08:09 > 1:08:10worried it's true.

1:08:10 > 1:08:12According to a report in The Guardian this week,

1:08:12 > 1:08:14party chiefs were concerned after surveys of public opinion

1:08:14 > 1:08:16showed that while Conservatives are seen as more credible

1:08:16 > 1:08:19on their policies, Labour are well ahead amongst voters when it

1:08:19 > 1:08:20comes to compassion.

1:08:20 > 1:08:22But can that be right, and which matters more

1:08:22 > 1:08:23to the British public ?

1:08:23 > 1:08:26We sent reporter Emma Vardy out into the cold with our rather

1:08:26 > 1:08:31unscientific moodbox.

1:08:31 > 1:08:33Tories have been told that polling suggests that people think

1:08:33 > 1:08:36Conservatives are competent when it comes to their policies but not

1:08:36 > 1:08:39caring enough when it comes to their values.

1:08:39 > 1:08:42So, we're in the Tory marginal of Putney to ask people

1:08:42 > 1:08:47what's more important, competence or compassion?

1:08:47 > 1:08:48Compassion.

1:08:48 > 1:08:50Why is that?

1:08:50 > 1:08:52Because it affects all of us.

1:08:52 > 1:08:57Compassion.

1:08:57 > 1:09:00I think they forget that it is real people they are

1:09:00 > 1:09:02governing, it is not just about the budget.

1:09:02 > 1:09:04It is about the budget, obviously, balancing the books, but

1:09:04 > 1:09:08I think you need to think about the little people, like these two.

1:09:08 > 1:09:09Like these.

1:09:09 > 1:09:11Competence, surely.

1:09:11 > 1:09:14Because if they are not, then we're going to

1:09:14 > 1:09:16need even more compassion because there will be even more people

1:09:16 > 1:09:18suffering.

1:09:18 > 1:09:19Thank you so much.

1:09:19 > 1:09:20Thank you.

1:09:20 > 1:09:23There are a lot of competent people who can take care of a job

1:09:23 > 1:09:26but a lot of these competent people don't really have compassion.

1:09:26 > 1:09:27It has to be competence.

1:09:27 > 1:09:28It has to be.

1:09:28 > 1:09:30Why competence?

1:09:30 > 1:09:32At the end of the day, obviously compassion is

1:09:32 > 1:09:36extremely important but due to the state our finances are in,

1:09:36 > 1:09:39competence has to be the way to go, unfortunately.

1:09:39 > 1:09:40Competence, I think.

1:09:40 > 1:09:41Why's that?

1:09:41 > 1:09:44Well, because they seem to be paid

1:09:44 > 1:09:47very well and don't have a lot of competence and fail this country

1:09:47 > 1:09:50miserably.

1:09:50 > 1:09:57People need to have a heart.

1:09:57 > 1:09:59If they're competent and don't have a heart, it's worthless.

1:09:59 > 1:10:01Competence.

1:10:01 > 1:10:02You can't have fools running the country.

1:10:02 > 1:10:04Well, I think that anybody who is in parliament

1:10:04 > 1:10:05should be conpetent.

1:10:05 > 1:10:08Otherwise you shouldn't be an MP in the first

1:10:08 > 1:10:09place, whatever party they are.

1:10:09 > 1:10:10Do they have enough compassion?

1:10:10 > 1:10:11No.

1:10:11 > 1:10:13But then who does have enough compassion these days?

1:10:13 > 1:10:15Hardly anybody, my dear.

1:10:15 > 1:10:17Should politicians do it from the heart, do you think?

1:10:17 > 1:10:18No.

1:10:18 > 1:10:20And I think they should do it from the heart.

1:10:20 > 1:10:23I think they just swerve everything.

1:10:23 > 1:10:26I am a heart on my sleeve man and I love that honesty,

1:10:26 > 1:10:27that genuine feel, enthusiasm.

1:10:27 > 1:10:28I can tell you are.

1:10:28 > 1:10:29I'm feeling the warmth.

1:10:29 > 1:10:31Thank you very much.

1:10:31 > 1:10:32Pleasure.

1:10:32 > 1:10:34Seems like it could be time for the Tory Party to

1:10:34 > 1:10:36enter the season of goodwill.

1:10:36 > 1:10:38Here in Putney, it was a narrow victory

1:10:38 > 1:10:49over competence for compassion.

1:10:49 > 1:10:53Emma in Putney. Let's bring the discussion into the studio. Are the

1:10:53 > 1:11:01Tories right? M BBC and is competent and not compassionate? Does it

1:11:01 > 1:11:06matter?The bigger worry is that they are not being seen as competent

1:11:06 > 1:11:11and that is fatal for a government. The two are connected full study

1:11:11 > 1:11:16cannot be compassionate because that involves public spending if you are

1:11:16 > 1:11:22not competent. With respect to the brilliant film, it is a slight

1:11:22 > 1:11:29juxtaposition. Many Tory MPs return from the last election saying we are

1:11:29 > 1:11:34seen again as the mean party. I was getting endless complaints about

1:11:34 > 1:11:40school cuts, health cuts and so on. But competence is the key. If you

1:11:40 > 1:11:46lose that, you're doomed as the Government.Time for Theresa May to

1:11:46 > 1:11:52start hugging huskies?That so well. I broadly agree with Steve,

1:11:52 > 1:11:57obviously you have to be competent. This is a huge problem for the Tory

1:11:57 > 1:12:00Party, particularly among young voters thought it was high time the

1:12:00 > 1:12:07Tory Party stopped letting labour monopolise the moral high ground on

1:12:07 > 1:12:11everything. Apart from the fact I'm sure he believes it in his heart

1:12:11 > 1:12:17when you are seeing figures like Michael Gove really embracing

1:12:17 > 1:12:20so-called softer causes like environmentalism and animal welfare.

1:12:20 > 1:12:27The Tories must do that to win over young voters.They have did do that.

1:12:27 > 1:12:31Can they do it?Compassion versus competence is the age of problem the

1:12:31 > 1:12:36Tory Party have had for years and it is the same with the Labour Party.

1:12:36 > 1:12:43Tony Blair pulled that trick brilliantly in 1997. The Tories can

1:12:43 > 1:12:52do that. But it will not shift the barometer too much. To make inroads

1:12:52 > 1:12:56on compassion, the Tories will have to reorganise whether money is in

1:12:56 > 1:13:01Britain and help out younger people, the socially immobile. That is where

1:13:01 > 1:13:08the problem is. They have no money and no majority. If you cannot get

1:13:08 > 1:13:11stuffed through the House of Commons you cannot change the country. That

1:13:11 > 1:13:16is where they will be stuck until the next election.Thank you all for

1:13:16 > 1:13:22being with us this afternoon.

1:13:22 > 1:13:24That's all for today - thanks to all my guests

1:13:24 > 1:13:25and my three amigos here.

1:13:25 > 1:13:28Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One

1:13:28 > 1:13:29for more Sunday Politics.

1:13:29 > 1:13:36Until then, bye-bye.