0:00:37 > 0:00:39Morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44And this is the programme that will provide your essential briefing
0:00:44 > 0:00:46on everything that's moving and shaking in the
0:00:46 > 0:00:48world of politics.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50Theresa May is back after her trip to China.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53But there's plenty of fire and fury from within her own party over
0:00:53 > 0:00:55Brexit and her ability to lead.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59The Conservative chairman joins me live.
0:00:59 > 0:01:02Labour tells demonstrators only it can save the NHS.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04So, do the party's health spending plans add up?
0:01:04 > 0:01:08We'll talk to the Shadow Health Secretary.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Months on from the sexual harassment and bullying scandal that
0:01:10 > 0:01:12engulfed Westminster, we'll be asking what's happened
0:01:12 > 0:01:20to plans for Parliament to clean up its act.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24And a violent scuffle at a speech by one Tory MP has been widely
0:01:24 > 0:01:25condemned.
0:01:25 > 0:01:29But is it symptomatic of a wider problem in politics?
0:01:29 > 0:01:33In London, a Labour council leader bullied out of power by the left.
0:01:33 > 0:01:37That's the allegation that sparked a civil war in the party.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39Roundtable talks are due to get underway
0:01:39 > 0:01:41at Stormont tomorrow,
0:01:41 > 0:01:42but with the Secretary of State playing down
0:01:42 > 0:01:44the importance of this week,
0:01:44 > 0:01:51I'll be asking the Ulster Unionists, SDLP and Alliance
0:01:52 > 0:01:55All that coming up in the programme.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57And, as one newspaper speculates about a 'dream team' being urged
0:01:57 > 0:02:00to take over at Number 10, we've got our own dream team
0:02:00 > 0:02:02of journalists - Tom Newton Dunn, Julia Hartley-Brewer,
0:02:02 > 0:02:03and Steve Richards.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05And they've promised not to plot against me...
0:02:05 > 0:02:07At least until the end of the show.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09So, the Prime Minister may have been out
0:02:09 > 0:02:12of the country to drum up trade but, even from 5,000 miles away, it
0:02:12 > 0:02:14must have been hard to ignore the continuing unrest
0:02:14 > 0:02:15from some in her party,
0:02:15 > 0:02:19and repeated calls to be clearer about Brexit.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23Theresa May was in China this week, where she gave President Xi Jinping
0:02:23 > 0:02:27DVDs of Blue Planet as a reminder of the dangers of plastic pollution.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30Back home, Conservative MPs gave her some advice on how to lead
0:02:30 > 0:02:33the party and the Government.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35Some advice was offered to Cabinet ministers
0:02:35 > 0:02:37getting restless on Brexit.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40The best way they can support her is to take a vow
0:02:40 > 0:02:42of silence on the subject.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44But most was for the Prime Minister herself.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47Some even aired their thoughts in public.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49I do think the window is closed because politics can be
0:02:49 > 0:02:52quite a brutal game.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55When is the Government going to stand up against the hard
0:02:55 > 0:02:59Brexiteers who mainly inhabit these benches?
0:02:59 > 0:03:01She does not actually have a majority for her
0:03:01 > 0:03:02policy in her Cabinet.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06It was advice of a different kind that hit the Government
0:03:06 > 0:03:08when BuzzFeed published leaked civil service analysis suggesting that,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11under various off-the-shelf trading models, the UK would be less well
0:03:11 > 0:03:16off in 15 years than if we'd stayed in the EU.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20But Brexit Minister Steve Baker wasn't worried about the forecasts.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24I think that they are always wrong, and wrong for good reasons.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27The analysis was grist to the mill for Brexit critics,
0:03:27 > 0:03:33but Theresa May probably didn't expect one minister to pile in.
0:03:33 > 0:03:35Justice Department's Phillip Lee said the leaked report couldn't just
0:03:35 > 0:03:38be dismissed and that, if anywhere near correct,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41it raised a serious question about current Brexit policy.
0:03:41 > 0:03:45But that's thinking 15 years ahead.
0:03:45 > 0:03:47One former Brexit Minister George Bridges took aim at the Government
0:03:47 > 0:03:53and the House of Lords for still not knowing what it wanted.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57All we hear day after day are conflicting, confusing voices.
0:03:57 > 0:04:00Theresa May returned from China saying she had secured £9 billion
0:04:00 > 0:04:03of business deals during the trip.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Local media dubbed her Auntie May, while International Trade Secretary
0:04:06 > 0:04:09Liam Fox said her middle name is 'resilience', claiming foreign
0:04:09 > 0:04:15leaders were well aware of Theresa May's strength.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18You look at the Prime Minister in a different way than some of,
0:04:18 > 0:04:23let's say, the internal tea room discussions in the UK do.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26While at home there was speculation about her ability to lead,
0:04:26 > 0:04:27Auntie May herself was clear.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29I am not a quitter.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32She will be relieved the only resignation she was offered this
0:04:32 > 0:04:38week was from a minister who'd shown up late to Parliament.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40I'm thoroughly ashamed at not being in my place,
0:04:40 > 0:04:42and therefore I shall be offering my resignation
0:04:42 > 0:04:43to the Prime Minister.
0:04:43 > 0:04:47But with open warfare in her party, calls to step up her game,
0:04:47 > 0:04:49and a crucial Cabinet meeting on Brexit within days,
0:04:49 > 0:04:52Theresa May knows she needs to do something special to ensure the next
0:04:52 > 0:05:00departure isn't hers.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07There is plenty to talk about with my panel of political insiders. It
0:05:07 > 0:05:12feels like Theresa May's worst week since last week that she began the
0:05:12 > 0:05:17show but talking about how difficult it was with fights within the party.
0:05:17 > 0:05:24Is it even worse? It is about the same. What is interesting, if I can
0:05:24 > 0:05:31put this in some context, I am working in a project with the Prime
0:05:31 > 0:05:36Minister at the moment. Many Prime Minister 's worry about being
0:05:36 > 0:05:41deposed but it is rare to happen. From 1968 Harold Wilson was in
0:05:41 > 0:05:50trouble and he survived another eight years. I'm not predicting...
0:05:50 > 0:05:53John Major survived until the general election. This is a constant
0:05:53 > 0:05:59theme in British politics that Prime Minister 's are rarely deposed at
0:05:59 > 0:06:03the moment I work on the assumption she will be around for some time to
0:06:03 > 0:06:09come.It is highly distracting though. It cannot help with the
0:06:09 > 0:06:16issue of the Government or wrecks it for that matter.All of Theresa
0:06:16 > 0:06:22May's woes art of her own making. It is about showing backbone and spine
0:06:22 > 0:06:25and having a Brexit policy and sticking with it. I find it
0:06:25 > 0:06:30extraordinary we will have two meetings with the Brexit War Cabinet
0:06:30 > 0:06:35on Wednesday and Thursday of this week to decide the Brexit policy.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39She has been in office for a long time it is a long time since the
0:06:39 > 0:06:43last election. It is a total travesty of leadership that is going
0:06:43 > 0:06:49on. All of her problems are of her own making. She could be doing with
0:06:49 > 0:06:52warring factions in her party, the opposition and all the other
0:06:52 > 0:06:56threats, just to be a strong Prime Minister. Making it clear to the
0:06:56 > 0:07:01likes of Philip Hammond, you are doubtful that he should have been
0:07:01 > 0:07:08out a long time ago if she had the will and strength to do so.Is it
0:07:08 > 0:07:11not by being ambiguous about her position on terror, and she has been
0:07:11 > 0:07:18able to remain as leader of the Conservative Party?Completely. I
0:07:18 > 0:07:21disagree with Julia and Steve that there is a third way in all of this.
0:07:21 > 0:07:28I believe all her problems are not of her own making. Brexit was not of
0:07:28 > 0:07:33her own making. She somehow had to try to get this through parliament
0:07:33 > 0:07:41where she has no majority, where she has eight Cabinet split and it is a
0:07:41 > 0:07:45huge problem. The only reason she is there is because she has not made a
0:07:45 > 0:07:50big decision, she has not got off the fence she is trying to keep the
0:07:50 > 0:07:54ship together and compromise. As was said in the brilliant speech in the
0:07:54 > 0:07:59House of Lords, to govern is to choose. Tony Blair said that this is
0:07:59 > 0:08:03the year of choice. The next six months will be the six months of
0:08:03 > 0:08:09choices for Theresa May. User needs to get the choices on Brexit, market
0:08:09 > 0:08:13control, sovereignty, access to huge, great big decisions. She needs
0:08:13 > 0:08:23to get that past four different hurdles was achieved to get the
0:08:23 > 0:08:25Cabinet on board among her own MPs to stay alive and stay in charge
0:08:25 > 0:08:28having made those decisions. Then she has too persuade the EU to buy
0:08:28 > 0:08:33whatever it is she will sell. I find it very, very hard indeed to think
0:08:33 > 0:08:37she will get over all four hurdles by the end of the year. Therefore I
0:08:37 > 0:08:41am afraid I cannot see her as leading the Tory Party by the end of
0:08:41 > 0:08:47it.I think it would be risky for anyone to make any predictions. Can
0:08:47 > 0:08:56I point out that 2018 was not the year of choice?2016 was the year of
0:08:56 > 0:09:00choice. I care about what the British electorate wants. The
0:09:00 > 0:09:05British electorate made their choice in 2016. Theresa May did not
0:09:05 > 0:09:11increase her majority of the 85% of people voted for two major parties
0:09:11 > 0:09:15in the Ukip and the other parties supported Brexit. There is a mandate
0:09:15 > 0:09:19we need to get on and do the will of the British people.I completely
0:09:19 > 0:09:23agree with Tom about these hurdles. They are almost impossible to get
0:09:23 > 0:09:29over. But that would apply to any Prime Minister. So, you have to ask
0:09:29 > 0:09:33the question, what does it solve? In the longer term, changing leader
0:09:33 > 0:09:38might give the more electoral success, who knows? But it does not
0:09:38 > 0:09:42solve getting over those hurdles you could have Boris Johnson saying,
0:09:42 > 0:09:49Britain can rule the waves. Those hurdles will still be there.But a
0:09:49 > 0:09:52Prime Minister who knew more about... .Mac will come back to this
0:09:52 > 0:09:56later in the programme. In the meantime we will move on.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58The Home Secretary, Amber Rudd, has been speaking this morning
0:09:58 > 0:10:00to the Andrew Marr Show, and she claimed the Cabinet
0:10:00 > 0:10:02isn't as divided over Brexit as some claim.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05I have a surprise for the Brexiteers, which is the committee
0:10:05 > 0:10:08that meets in order to help make these decisions, is meeting, as you
0:10:08 > 0:10:11rightly say, twice this week, is more united than they think.
0:10:11 > 0:10:13We meet in the committee, we meet privately for discussions.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16I think we will arrive at something which suits us all.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19There will be choices to be made within them but we all want the same
0:10:19 > 0:10:23thing, which is to arrive at a deal that works for the UK, that
0:10:23 > 0:10:24looks ahead.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27It's not just about protecting trade behind us, it's about looking ahead
0:10:27 > 0:10:29to what kind of country we want to be afterwards.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31We all have those interests at heart.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34And I'm joined now by the chairman of the Conservative Party,
0:10:34 > 0:10:38Brandon Lewis.
0:10:38 > 0:10:43Thank you for coming in. Amber Rudd is saying the Cabinet is more united
0:10:43 > 0:10:45than people think. The parties that he doesn't look that way from some
0:10:45 > 0:10:49of the things they have heard this week. It is your job to get them on
0:10:49 > 0:10:54the same page in order to make that happen, do you need to spell out a
0:10:54 > 0:11:02vision of what Brexit will look like so they can get behind it?It is
0:11:02 > 0:11:07like what Amber said. The Cabinet is united behind the Prime Minister to
0:11:07 > 0:11:12make sure we get a good deal for the European Union.We are hearing lots
0:11:12 > 0:11:20of noises, complaining. They want to know more about what the end state
0:11:20 > 0:11:27will be otherwise they will row more.Where I disagree is all MPs,
0:11:27 > 0:11:32certainly in the Conservative Party, are united in seeing we get a good
0:11:32 > 0:11:36deal on leaving the EU for the United Kingdom.Bernard Jenkin
0:11:36 > 0:11:41saying we need to end confusion in government. They are complaining
0:11:41 > 0:11:45about the present uncertainty. Working out what is the right deal
0:11:45 > 0:11:48for the United Kingdom. In negotiations we are having with a 27
0:11:48 > 0:11:52partners who want to continue to trade with in the European Union is
0:11:52 > 0:11:56a very serious and, located piece of work. We never said this was an easy
0:11:56 > 0:12:02piece of work and it is why there are meetings of the subcommittee in
0:12:02 > 0:12:07the Cabinet going through the details. We have the deal, the first
0:12:07 > 0:12:12stage of the deal, before Christmas. We must look to the next stage which
0:12:12 > 0:12:16is agreeing the situation in the period of translation after March
0:12:16 > 0:12:212000 and 19. The ultimate deal that we want, for people in the United
0:12:21 > 0:12:26Kingdom, after the transition period as well.We're all waiting with
0:12:26 > 0:12:32breath. Your backbenchers, whatever side of the other in they are on the
0:12:32 > 0:12:36desperately want to know what the end state will look like. After the
0:12:36 > 0:12:41Cabinet subcommittees meet later in the week, we get more detail?There
0:12:41 > 0:12:45are a couple of key issues. Within Brexit we have been very clear.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49We're going to leave the European Union, and the customs union. We
0:12:49 > 0:12:55want to make sure we can leave the control of the Borders to the United
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Kingdom, the Government of the United Kingdom. When I am talking to
0:12:58 > 0:13:04residents, across the country, they also want to know that the Prime
0:13:04 > 0:13:08Minister is focused on issues that matter to people every day. They're
0:13:08 > 0:13:11getting good education or housing opportunities for people. The
0:13:11 > 0:13:15knowledge and confidence there will be growth in the economy and
0:13:15 > 0:13:18security in the future as well.It is hard for the Dublin to get on
0:13:18 > 0:13:23with that whenever such a fight within the party among backbenchers
0:13:23 > 0:13:26and senior influential people, coming out and criticising the
0:13:26 > 0:13:31party, criticising the leadership. Until there is more clarity on
0:13:31 > 0:13:37Brexit you will not be able
0:13:41 > 0:13:42Brexit you will not be able to get on with the other policies because
0:13:42 > 0:13:46there is such a row in the party.We have a range of views, expertise and
0:13:46 > 0:13:48great talent to draw on all stop people putting their ideas forward.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51Jacob is a really good example of that. We saw what happened the other
0:13:51 > 0:13:54night with the hard left doing everything they can to try to stop
0:13:54 > 0:13:57people having their safest we have to ultimately make decisions about
0:13:57 > 0:14:05what we think is right for the country in the longer run. -- having
0:14:05 > 0:14:09their say about what we have to ultimately make decisions about.Do
0:14:09 > 0:14:19you worry whether there is a hidden agenda?My experience has been the
0:14:19 > 0:14:24civil service in this country has been superb. They work hard in the
0:14:24 > 0:14:27best interests of the Government. It is their job to give impartial
0:14:27 > 0:14:32views. You think they do? That is one reason why the world is envious
0:14:32 > 0:14:36of our civil service and rightly so. Our job as ministers and the
0:14:36 > 0:14:41Government ultimately is to make decisions on their behalf as you
0:14:41 > 0:14:45give consideration and ultimately we are the ones who have to make the
0:14:45 > 0:14:50decisions.Jacob Rees Mogg says they are fiddling the figures and putting
0:14:50 > 0:14:55out information that is wrong.As Amber Rudd herself said, one of the
0:14:55 > 0:15:02most gracious and intelligent people I know, on this, I slightly
0:15:02 > 0:15:07disagree. Perhaps they are doing. In the leaked reports, which have not
0:15:07 > 0:15:13been approved and signed off by ministers, it is about forecasts. It
0:15:13 > 0:15:16does not take into account what the final negotiation will be nor the
0:15:16 > 0:15:19final decisions let alone the domestic policy, which we are
0:15:19 > 0:15:25getting on with. Making sure that people have opportunities and
0:15:25 > 0:15:29businesses can grow.You mentioned the scuffle at Jacob Rees Mogg was
0:15:29 > 0:15:32involved in earlier in the week, some fairly ugly scenes which no one
0:15:32 > 0:15:35wants to see those that you have plans to tackle intimidation in
0:15:35 > 0:15:40political life?
0:15:40 > 0:15:44We cannot allow the hard left to create a situation where people feel
0:15:44 > 0:15:49so intimidated they are not prepared to come forward and have their say.
0:15:49 > 0:15:54What we are seeing, and what we saw in the report is actually people on
0:15:54 > 0:15:57the left giving horrendous abuse to people across the political
0:15:57 > 0:16:02spectrum. I do agree, whether someone's views are at the centre,
0:16:02 > 0:16:06right or left, they should have the freedom and knowledge they can come
0:16:06 > 0:16:13forward and stand as a candidate. We are going to change the law to make
0:16:13 > 0:16:21it against the law for people to intimidate people. But also from the
0:16:21 > 0:16:26Conservative Party point of view, internally we will have a respect
0:16:26 > 0:16:34pledge that all of our candidates will sign up to. If they breach that
0:16:34 > 0:16:41cold, we will suspend them.It's often Labour politicians who are the
0:16:41 > 0:16:46target of a lot of abuse. It is Diane Abbott who gets far and away
0:16:46 > 0:16:51the most abuse on Twitter. How can you be sure these aren't members of
0:16:51 > 0:16:56your own party or your own supporters who are abusing left-wing
0:16:56 > 0:17:00politicians?We have to differentiate. We should be able to
0:17:00 > 0:17:04robust we have our debates. I have debated with Diane Abbott over her
0:17:04 > 0:17:12inability to get her numbers right on police numbers. We have seen the
0:17:12 > 0:17:21Shadow Chancellor... However it is from, it is not acceptable. I will
0:17:21 > 0:17:27deal with that. We need to have good, clear, freedom of speech,
0:17:27 > 0:17:30robust debate with respect and I respect the Labour Party to do the
0:17:30 > 0:17:36right thing and condemn what we saw the other night, and see the
0:17:36 > 0:17:39leadership do the right thing. There's no evidence it had anything
0:17:39 > 0:17:45to do the Labour Party.What we do know is when you have the Shadow
0:17:45 > 0:17:50Chancellor of the country encouraging abuse of people
0:17:50 > 0:17:57individually...He denies that. He says he actually argues against that
0:17:57 > 0:18:05and says he condemned it.What anybody can see, anybody can look up
0:18:05 > 0:18:09what John McDonnell said. We have not seen anyone in the senior
0:18:09 > 0:18:12echelons of the Labour Party do anything to condemn this kind of
0:18:12 > 0:18:18action or come out and say they will sign up to a respect pledge but we
0:18:18 > 0:18:22will do that.Getting back to the Tory party, it is not just the
0:18:22 > 0:18:27ructions that have erupted this week, there has been a lot of
0:18:27 > 0:18:30criticism of Theresa May's leadership, Heidi Allen saying it
0:18:30 > 0:18:36was time to get a grip and lead, another MP said he had a profound
0:18:36 > 0:18:44fear of Jeremy Corbyn becoming leader if they don't get their act
0:18:44 > 0:18:48together. It is difficult to manage a febrile situation in which a large
0:18:48 > 0:18:53number of your MPs don't seem to want Theresa May to lead the party
0:18:53 > 0:19:03into the next election.I know Heidi and Johnnie very well. I have heard
0:19:03 > 0:19:05him be very clear that Theresa May is the right person to lead the
0:19:05 > 0:19:12country and actually Theresa May as someone who cares passionately about
0:19:12 > 0:19:16getting fairness in society, opportunity for people...Why do
0:19:16 > 0:19:21your own MPs not appear to understand that?We should all be
0:19:21 > 0:19:28uniting behind our leader.Funnily enough that is what David Lidington
0:19:28 > 0:19:31said on the Andrew Marr Show last week when he said it was time to
0:19:31 > 0:19:36come together in a spirit of mutual respect. Will they listen to you
0:19:36 > 0:19:42this week, stop the sniping from the sidelines?I have been speaking to
0:19:42 > 0:19:45colleagues and myself, what I get consistently is they want us to be
0:19:45 > 0:19:52focused on the job we should be doing. The job I think most of your
0:19:52 > 0:19:57viewers would want us to get on with is delivering a good Brexit but also
0:19:57 > 0:20:02we have a domestic agenda to deliver, like supporting the NHS,
0:20:02 > 0:20:06making sure businesses can grow, people keeping more money in their
0:20:06 > 0:20:11pocket and a country that is growing and optimistic about its future
0:20:11 > 0:20:14opportunities.One Conservative council got itself in trouble this
0:20:14 > 0:20:18week, they run out of money in Northamptonshire. The leader of the
0:20:18 > 0:20:23council said they had been warning the Government from about 2014 that
0:20:23 > 0:20:29they couldn't cope with the level of cuts they were facing. Did you not
0:20:29 > 0:20:36listen to her?
0:20:36 > 0:20:45listen to her?Across local government councils hopping -- ... I
0:20:45 > 0:20:52do think there are more efficiencies that can be found.In
0:20:52 > 0:20:56Northamptonshire they say they have actually run out of money.District
0:20:56 > 0:21:00authorities can look at how they can do more, about sharing services,
0:21:00 > 0:21:06sharing senior management and saving substantial amounts of money. I
0:21:06 > 0:21:08would encourage those local authorities to look at that
0:21:08 > 0:21:11opportunity because it means they can put more of their time and
0:21:11 > 0:21:16effort and the money they do have is focusing on giving good first-class
0:21:16 > 0:21:21services.You are of course going to allow them to raise council tax, and
0:21:21 > 0:21:25we have had warnings from other Tory run councils as well saying they are
0:21:25 > 0:21:30running out of money. It is a bit difficult though isn't it when you
0:21:30 > 0:21:36have prided yourself on low taxes that many people are likely to see
0:21:36 > 0:21:43pretty big rises in their council tax.We have to make difficult
0:21:43 > 0:21:49decisions due to the economic legacy we inherited. Council tax roughly
0:21:49 > 0:21:53doubled under Labour, I was a council leader where the party had
0:21:53 > 0:21:57run my counsel at the time with increases of 16% year-on-year. We
0:21:57 > 0:22:05have brought that back down so we had the council tax freeze, and I
0:22:05 > 0:22:08would encourage council leaders to look at how they spend their money.
0:22:08 > 0:22:15But council taxes will be going up, you reckon?They will be using the
0:22:15 > 0:22:21ability they have to raise it a few percent to give good local services.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24People are looking at how efficient they are, how they are focused on
0:22:24 > 0:22:28their local needs to get good Conservative governments in May this
0:22:28 > 0:22:30year.Thank you.
0:22:30 > 0:22:32Yesterday, thousands of people marched on the rainy
0:22:32 > 0:22:34streets of London to protest against what organisers described
0:22:34 > 0:22:35as a crisis in NHS funding.
0:22:35 > 0:22:37The Shadow Health Secretary, Jonathan Ashworth,
0:22:37 > 0:22:39was there and told the crowds that under Labour
0:22:39 > 0:22:42there would be more money for the NHS, higher pay for staff,
0:22:42 > 0:22:45and privatisation would end.
0:22:45 > 0:22:49No more PFI hospitals.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51No more Carillion outsourcing, leaving hospitals dirty and unclean,
0:22:51 > 0:22:59affecting patient safety.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01And we're putting Virgin Care, and organisations like
0:23:01 > 0:23:02that, on notice today.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04No more suing of the NHS, no more privatisation.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06Privatisation comes to the end with a Labour government,
0:23:06 > 0:23:09as we get rid of that Lansley Act and restore, and indeed reinstate,
0:23:09 > 0:23:17a public National Health Service.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25And Jonathan Ashworth is back in his constituency in Leicester.
0:23:25 > 0:23:30He joins me from there now.
0:23:30 > 0:23:38Good morning. On that March you were demanding the NHS get the funding it
0:23:38 > 0:23:42needs but we have been looking back at Labour's manifesto and you
0:23:42 > 0:23:46weren't really promising very much more money for the NHS than the Tory
0:23:46 > 0:23:53government says it will deliver.We would be putting in an extra £5
0:23:53 > 0:23:58billion into the NHS this year. You will recall that Simon Stevens, the
0:23:58 > 0:24:02head of the NHS, was asking for an extra four billion this year. They
0:24:02 > 0:24:07didn't get that in the November budget but we would put an extra £5
0:24:07 > 0:24:13billion into the NHS this year.You were talking about an increase of 2%
0:24:13 > 0:24:19per year, more than this Government is promising which is 1.2% this
0:24:19 > 0:24:24year, but historically health spending usually goes up by about 4%
0:24:24 > 0:24:30per year and you were promising half of that.Yes, over 62 years it went
0:24:30 > 0:24:33up by 4% but we would be increasing expenditure quite substantially in
0:24:33 > 0:24:39the NHS in the early years of the Parliament.But to an average of 2%
0:24:39 > 0:24:43a year over the Government?Yes but we also said we would establish an
0:24:43 > 0:24:47OBR for the health service to advise government on long-term spending
0:24:47 > 0:24:52needs of the NHS so we would have an independent body giving us an
0:24:52 > 0:24:56accurate assessment of the demographic changes, the staffing
0:24:56 > 0:25:02needs of the NHS, which would inform future spending decisions. In the
0:25:02 > 0:25:05early years of the parliament we would be spending substantially more
0:25:05 > 0:25:11on the NHS, not just for hospitals which are overcrowded because we
0:25:11 > 0:25:15have lost 14,500 beds since 2010 but also more investment in community
0:25:15 > 0:25:21health service.It's very difficult for you to give statistics about how
0:25:21 > 0:25:24much trouble the NHS is in when you were promising a very modest
0:25:24 > 0:25:29increase in spending of 2%. Under the last Labour government, health
0:25:29 > 0:25:35spending rose by 6% per year, under Margaret Thatcher's government it
0:25:35 > 0:25:41went up by 3% a year. Your manifesto pledge was to give the NHS on
0:25:41 > 0:25:45average less money than Margaret Thatcher did.But we would be
0:25:45 > 0:25:51allocating £5 billion for the NHS. You say it is a modest increase, if
0:25:51 > 0:25:55I could say it is substantially more than this Government is putting into
0:25:55 > 0:26:01the NHS and when you have Simon Stevens saying the NHS needs four
0:26:01 > 0:26:04billion this year, we were promising more than that so you say it is
0:26:04 > 0:26:08modest but I suggest it is a significant level of investment
0:26:08 > 0:26:13which would allow us to get waiting lists down. They could reach 5
0:26:13 > 0:26:17million under the Government. It would allow us to deal with
0:26:17 > 0:26:26overcrowded hospitals and allow us to invest in
0:26:27 > 0:26:29to invest in community health services, stop the cuts to child and
0:26:29 > 0:26:31adolescent mental health services, allow us to recruit so we have the
0:26:31 > 0:26:43nurses we need.That is what you can buy for £5 billion you say, is
0:26:43 > 0:26:47scrapping tuition fees are better use of the money?I'm always going
0:26:47 > 0:26:55to argue for more money for the NHS, as someone who aspires to be the
0:26:55 > 0:26:59Health Secretary.And therefore argue against scrapping tuition
0:26:59 > 0:27:09fees?The tuition fee pledge was a promise made by Jeremy Corbyn and
0:27:09 > 0:27:12John McDonnell when Jeremy Corbyn run for the leadership of the Labour
0:27:12 > 0:27:16Party and proved to be very popular electorally as a pledge so I can see
0:27:16 > 0:27:21why the Labour Party will be sticking with that, but I'm always
0:27:21 > 0:27:31going to be making the case for more money for the NHS. We have seen £6
0:27:31 > 0:27:37billion of cuts and
0:27:38 > 0:27:41billion of cuts and other...It is not clear the amount of money
0:27:41 > 0:27:46offered by Labour will be sufficient to offer their aspirations in social
0:27:46 > 0:27:54care.I would say it would be. Across the Parliament we would put
0:27:54 > 0:27:58an extra £8 billion but we know we have to look at better ways of
0:27:58 > 0:28:05integrating health and social care. The NHS was created in 1948, social
0:28:05 > 0:28:08care was created as a sister service but they have never worked together
0:28:08 > 0:28:15as closely as they should. We are older, with various different
0:28:15 > 0:28:19conditions, we know the social care system and the NHS will have to work
0:28:19 > 0:28:23more closely together so we would look at integrating properly health
0:28:23 > 0:28:28and social care but that is a medium to long-term plan, not something a
0:28:28 > 0:28:33politician can deliver overnight.It was made clear at the rally you work
0:28:33 > 0:28:36at yesterday Labour politicians pledging no more outsourcing in the
0:28:36 > 0:28:41NHS, what does that actually mean? No more private companies of any
0:28:41 > 0:28:46kind involved in healthcare at all? What we would want to bring an end
0:28:46 > 0:28:53to is the way in which, because of the health and social care act from
0:28:53 > 0:28:56for years ago, it means community health contracts have to always be
0:28:56 > 0:29:03put out to tender. Millions is wasted, some even say billions
0:29:03 > 0:29:07wasted, on the constant tendering of contracts. We have just seen a
0:29:07 > 0:29:12children's health contracts go to virgin care in Lancashire. When
0:29:12 > 0:29:15virgin care didn't win a contract in Surrey, they forced the NHS to
0:29:15 > 0:29:22settle with them out of court. Macmillan Cancer Support have one in
0:29:22 > 0:29:25Staffordshire, the Red Cross, St John's ambulance, they all have
0:29:25 > 0:29:29contracts provided for under the very act you say you want to repeal.
0:29:29 > 0:29:40You don't want these people involved in health care delivery?Macmillan
0:29:40 > 0:29:45nurses have had a role since the 1970s. They complement what the NHS
0:29:45 > 0:29:49offers so we are not talking about ending the voluntary sector role.
0:29:49 > 0:29:55This isn't just voluntary services. No, but we are talking about private
0:29:55 > 0:29:59firms where a full contract for service delivery, say a children's
0:29:59 > 0:30:05health service, is handed over to virgin, that means the staff are
0:30:05 > 0:30:09handed over, the only way virgin or whatever that private sector company
0:30:09 > 0:30:14is can make a profit is by cutting down on terms and conditions. It
0:30:14 > 0:30:19means the staff are often down branded, knocked down a level in
0:30:19 > 0:30:23terms of their pay, and we don't believe that delivers the quality of
0:30:23 > 0:30:34care children deserve and that's what we want to end.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41You talk about the long waiting lists. Under the last Labour
0:30:41 > 0:30:45government that they came in at a time in the NHS was and a lot of
0:30:45 > 0:30:49pressure and delivery used private sector companies to work through the
0:30:49 > 0:30:52backlog of people who were waiting for operations in order to get the
0:30:52 > 0:30:56waiting lists down quickly. Do you not think that the NHS as an estate
0:30:56 > 0:31:07now where you may be forced to consider that?The NHS has always
0:31:07 > 0:31:10got extra capacity from private service providers in that
0:31:10 > 0:31:14circumstance. The Labour government was not handing over the delivery
0:31:14 > 0:31:19lock, stock and barrel for the whole sort of health contract.That's the
0:31:19 > 0:31:24difference. But you might still buy in services. When you say
0:31:24 > 0:31:32outsourcing is finished, it doesn't mean the whole involvement of
0:31:32 > 0:31:36private companies is finished?The NHS will not build its own
0:31:36 > 0:31:41ambulances. We will still buy from the private sector. Without capacity
0:31:41 > 0:31:46in the NHS we will buy in from the private sector. If you want to get
0:31:46 > 0:31:49the rescheduled by Easter, if you wanted to do that, the anyway the
0:31:49 > 0:31:55NHS could do that is by buying in from the private sector. There is a
0:31:55 > 0:31:59difference between spot buying in the private sector and handing out a
0:31:59 > 0:32:03complete contract. Take a really in four example with the cleaning
0:32:03 > 0:32:07contract.I will have to leave you on and ask you about Haringey
0:32:07 > 0:32:13Council before we go. Clare Cockburn was on the Andrew Marr show earlier
0:32:13 > 0:32:21and she has been giving interviews, talking about bullying within the
0:32:21 > 0:32:26Labour Party and at council meetings. -- Kober thought she said
0:32:26 > 0:32:32she could not complain to the NEC because she thought that was in
0:32:32 > 0:32:38itself a problem. That is deeply worrying, isn't it?I don't know all
0:32:38 > 0:32:42the ins and outs I have seen what is in the newspapers but I used to be a
0:32:42 > 0:32:50member of the National Executive committee until 18 months ago. Clare
0:32:50 > 0:32:54Kober, if there were specific complaints, they do need to go to
0:32:54 > 0:32:57the NEC and the NEC would look at that. Various committees would look
0:32:57 > 0:33:03at that very seriously.You reached a point when a senior member of the
0:33:03 > 0:33:06party does not trust the NEC to sort this out because she thinks they are
0:33:06 > 0:33:13part of the problem and not the answer.I would say that the NEC, in
0:33:13 > 0:33:19my experience, would look at these things. The NEC got involved in
0:33:19 > 0:33:23mediation talks. I am not a member of it anymore but what I understand
0:33:23 > 0:33:28is a substantial number of Labour councillors in Haringey asked the
0:33:28 > 0:33:32NEC to intervene I don't know the ins and outs but it is clear there
0:33:32 > 0:33:37are two sides of the story. On specific allegations where there was
0:33:37 > 0:33:41a meeting in Haringey where there was anti-Semitic chanting in things
0:33:41 > 0:33:45like that, if those people are Labour Party members were they need
0:33:45 > 0:33:49to be reported. If people are being anti-Semitic they will be thrown out
0:33:49 > 0:33:52of the Labour Party, simple as that. Thank you.
0:33:52 > 0:33:54Allegations of sexual harassment and bullying rocked Westminster
0:33:54 > 0:33:56when they emerged last autumn.
0:33:56 > 0:33:58By the end of the year, two Cabinet ministers had resigned
0:33:58 > 0:34:00and several MPs from different parties had been suspended
0:34:00 > 0:34:03pending investigations.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06The Government promised action, and announced a cross-party working
0:34:06 > 0:34:07group to decide what it should be.
0:34:07 > 0:34:09But, so far, it hasn't recommended anything.
0:34:09 > 0:34:11Ellie Price has been finding out what's going on.
0:34:11 > 0:34:16And, just a warning, her report includes some flash photography.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19It wasn't parliament's finest hour.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22Revelations of shady goings-on, of sexual harassment in the Palace's
0:34:22 > 0:34:26bars and back rooms, of bullying in its offices.
0:34:26 > 0:34:31Of course, the vast majority of MPs and their staff were not implicated.
0:34:31 > 0:34:33But it was enough that all the party leaders agreed
0:34:33 > 0:34:37something needed to be done.
0:34:37 > 0:34:39We should not rest until everyone working in Parliament can feel safe,
0:34:39 > 0:34:44valued and respected.
0:34:44 > 0:34:46We have a chance now to get this right, for everyone
0:34:46 > 0:34:47on the parliamentary estate.
0:34:47 > 0:34:49Political leaders agreed to set up a cross-party
0:34:49 > 0:34:52working group in November.
0:34:52 > 0:34:54MPs, peers, and other interested groups have been working
0:34:54 > 0:34:57on the proposals ever since.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00The Leader of the House had said she wanted the recommendations to be
0:35:00 > 0:35:02voted on by Parliament and implemented by
0:35:02 > 0:35:05the end of January.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08But here we are at the beginning of February and still the report
0:35:08 > 0:35:12hasn't been published.
0:35:12 > 0:35:14before Christmas and then its scope was widened.
0:35:14 > 0:35:18It was then due to be released on Thursday but I'm told it
0:35:18 > 0:35:23still needs final sign off from the party leaders.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26I've been told there is now broad consensus among members on the group
0:35:26 > 0:35:28that its recommendations are suitably robust.
0:35:28 > 0:35:32Sources close to the talks told me there's recommendations are likely
0:35:32 > 0:35:34to include a new independent grievance procedure for staff,
0:35:34 > 0:35:38consent lessons for MPs, starting after the next general
0:35:38 > 0:35:42election, a new code of conduct, and the one most likely
0:35:42 > 0:35:45to grab the headlines, tougher sanctions, including making
0:35:45 > 0:35:49easier the process to recall - and potentially fire
0:35:49 > 0:35:51- an MP.
0:35:51 > 0:35:55The current situation is one where I would face harsher sanctions
0:35:55 > 0:35:58and penalties for being rude about another MP on the floor
0:35:58 > 0:36:00of the House of Commons than I would if I were bullying
0:36:00 > 0:36:02or harassing a member of staff.
0:36:02 > 0:36:06I don't think that is a reasonable, or tenable, situation,
0:36:06 > 0:36:09and I think we need to give staff, and the general public we work for,
0:36:09 > 0:36:12the confidence that Parliament is not just abiding by the law
0:36:12 > 0:36:17on employment rights and workplace rights
0:36:17 > 0:36:20but actually setting a standard.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23A representative from Unite is also on the working party.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25The union says its members, who work in Parliament,
0:36:25 > 0:36:29have lost faith in the system.
0:36:29 > 0:36:31Our members don't have confidence at the moment that there's
0:36:31 > 0:36:33going to be enough change in Parliament to make
0:36:33 > 0:36:37a difference to the bullying and harassment culture.
0:36:37 > 0:36:40There needs to be positive engagement with staff and encourage
0:36:40 > 0:36:44them, and give them confidence that, if they make a complaint over
0:36:44 > 0:36:49bullying and harassment, that there will be proper investigation.
0:36:49 > 0:36:52And the working group has its work cut out.
0:36:52 > 0:36:55As HR experts consulted during the process point out,
0:36:55 > 0:36:58reforming the existing employment rules in Parliament
0:36:58 > 0:37:02is not straightforward.
0:37:02 > 0:37:05One of the big challenges, you've got 650 MPs, who are all
0:37:05 > 0:37:09running their own offices and staff.
0:37:09 > 0:37:13So, effectively, you've got 650 small firms in effect.
0:37:13 > 0:37:17And the extent to which they have had previous experience in managing
0:37:17 > 0:37:20people, and running businesses, is probably limited
0:37:20 > 0:37:22in many instances.
0:37:22 > 0:37:25So, that's part of the problem.
0:37:25 > 0:37:27But any overhaul of the system is unnecessary, says this MP
0:37:27 > 0:37:32who has been in Parliament for nearly 35 years.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34I think, by and large, the rules work as they are.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37And, if courtesy and common sense are applied, there is no need
0:37:37 > 0:37:40for any change at all.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43Yeah, there are bad apples in the barrel.
0:37:43 > 0:37:46But those bad apples tend to get weeded out pretty fast.
0:37:46 > 0:37:50And I think we could create, if we're not careful,
0:37:50 > 0:37:56a whistle-blowers charter, a witch hunters charter.
0:37:56 > 0:38:02Very difficult for a male of any age to defend against an allegation.
0:38:02 > 0:38:06I'm told the report will be published next week,
0:38:06 > 0:38:09possibly on Tuesday, and MPs will then debate
0:38:09 > 0:38:11it in the Commons.
0:38:11 > 0:38:15But it may not satisfy everyone that it's exactly what's required to put
0:38:15 > 0:38:23this House in order.
0:38:23 > 0:38:24It's coming up to 11:40am.
0:38:24 > 0:38:27You're watching the Sunday Politics.
0:38:27 > 0:38:29Coming up on the programme, we'll be talking about the violent
0:38:29 > 0:38:31scenes after protestors interrupted a speech by the Conservative
0:38:31 > 0:38:33MP Jacob Rees Mogg, and plenty more.
0:38:33 > 0:38:41First though, it's time for the Sunday Politics where you are.
0:38:43 > 0:38:48In new or her
0:38:48 > 0:38:51Hello or her and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
0:38:51 > 0:38:53It's a big week ahead with roundtable talks planned
0:38:53 > 0:38:56for Stormont and pressure mounting for a budget decision.
0:38:56 > 0:38:59So what will the SDLP, Alliance and Ulster Unionists be bringing
0:38:59 > 0:39:01to the table tomorrow?
0:39:01 > 0:39:05And what happens next if it proves impossible to bring devolution back?
0:39:05 > 0:39:06And joining me with their thoughts throughout
0:39:06 > 0:39:09the programme are columnist Brian Feeney
0:39:09 > 0:39:16and journalist Amanda Ferguson.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18But first today, Sinn Fein's Gerry Kelly has found himself
0:39:18 > 0:39:21in the middle of a police investigation after he was filmed
0:39:21 > 0:39:24removing a clamp from the wheel of his car.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27A video of Mr Kelly circulated on social media yesterday
0:39:27 > 0:39:29and the police say they're investigating a report
0:39:29 > 0:39:32of criminal damage in the Cathedral Quarter of Belfast.
0:39:32 > 0:39:36A Sinn Fein statement acknowledged Gerry Kelly had removed the clamp
0:39:36 > 0:39:38and that his solicitor is dealing with the matter.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41So is this another embarrassment for the party?
0:39:41 > 0:39:44Brian and Amanda, social media is awash with the footage.
0:39:44 > 0:39:51What do you make of it?
0:39:51 > 0:40:01yes, I hardly think it is an embarrassment for the party. Gerry
0:40:01 > 0:40:04Kelly has done a number of controversial things but we don't
0:40:04 > 0:40:08know the details yet. It is possible that it is one of those occasions
0:40:08 > 0:40:14where it is something that is very small, you don't see that you are
0:40:14 > 0:40:19going to be clamped and you don't know what time of day it was either,
0:40:19 > 0:40:23whether it was early morning or afternoon so I expect it will end up
0:40:23 > 0:40:31that he will have to pay the cost of the clamp.It seems to indicate that
0:40:31 > 0:40:42it happened early in the morning after a gym session. It was dark.
0:40:43 > 0:40:49Yes, I think there will be lots of questions and it wasn't what I was
0:40:49 > 0:40:52expecting to be writing about last night. It is just another one of
0:40:52 > 0:40:59those stories that brings attention to the unique circumstances of
0:40:59 > 0:41:07northern Ireland and its politics. We will see how it pans out.We are
0:41:07 > 0:41:17assuming it was some sort of by the contract of the clamped him.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19contract of the clamped him. There are clearly other politicians who
0:41:19 > 0:41:26have been expressing their annoyance and outrage about what happened.I
0:41:26 > 0:41:32have no doubt that a complaint will be put into the assembly and they
0:41:32 > 0:41:35will investigate what Gerry Kelly was up to and what his behaviour
0:41:35 > 0:41:43was.There have been calls for his resignation already over the matter.
0:41:43 > 0:41:49Will talk a lot sportier over the programme.
0:41:49 > 0:41:51Tomorrow the Secretary of State, Karen Bradley, will chair her first
0:41:51 > 0:41:52roundtable talks at Stormont
0:41:52 > 0:41:55since taking up the post, but she's now playing down
0:41:55 > 0:41:57the significance of this week, which she had previously
0:41:57 > 0:41:58described as a "milestone".
0:41:58 > 0:42:01While much of the emphasis of recent months has been on discussions
0:42:01 > 0:42:04between Sinn Fein and the DUP, this is the chance for the smaller
0:42:04 > 0:42:06parties to get their elbows on the table.
0:42:06 > 0:42:09Joining me now are the SDLP's Mark H Durkan, who's in our Foyle
0:42:09 > 0:42:11studio, John Stewart from the Ulster Unionists and the
0:42:11 > 0:42:12Alliance Party's Paula Bradshaw.
0:42:12 > 0:42:21What are you hoping for from tomorrow's discussions?
0:42:22 > 0:42:28It is interesting to hear that there hasn't been any down play of the
0:42:28 > 0:42:36significance of it and the isn't much expectation in the public and
0:42:36 > 0:42:41we see tomorrow as a huge opportunity and we have the five
0:42:41 > 0:42:48parties finally sitting down at the start of what is we hope will be a
0:42:48 > 0:42:51inclusive and transparent process and the first test of that
0:42:51 > 0:42:59transparency will be weathered the DUP and Sinn Fein there are
0:42:59 > 0:43:01DUP and Sinn Fein there are the three parties how far they have got
0:43:01 > 0:43:05on behind closed doors and the government has told us as well that
0:43:05 > 0:43:10there has been sick that the process and we are close to a deal but we
0:43:10 > 0:43:15need be told that and we can't address a process that we don't owe
0:43:15 > 0:43:19anything about and the public have a right to know what progress has been
0:43:19 > 0:43:26made. They can see that obstacles remain and we all want to work
0:43:26 > 0:43:29together to overcome those obstacles and get the government up and
0:43:29 > 0:43:36running again.Do you have any optimism about what might come out
0:43:36 > 0:43:41of tomorrow or might this be a process of windowdressing and it
0:43:41 > 0:43:47everything will fall apart?First of all, I was keeping an eye on the
0:43:47 > 0:43:54media yesterday and you would expect the DUP and Sinn Fein to come out
0:43:54 > 0:44:02and say what they expect but that didn't happen will stop and the
0:44:02 > 0:44:13public are right to expect failure, but we have seen all parties get on
0:44:13 > 0:44:18board and that will unlock everything here and we need a stable
0:44:18 > 0:44:23assembly and that will only happen if we have the mechanisms and
0:44:23 > 0:44:30structured to move forward to democratic politics.Is there any
0:44:30 > 0:44:35sense of any movement between the DUP and Sinn Fein to make you
0:44:35 > 0:44:43optimistic about tomorrow?Not that I have seen. Discussions are
0:44:43 > 0:44:51ongoing, but the parties, the DUP and Alliance have been given no
0:44:51 > 0:44:57indication of what progress has been made. All five parties have sit sat
0:44:57 > 0:45:02round the table since June last year, that is ridiculous, we need
0:45:02 > 0:45:10inclusive talks. I have already said loud and clear to the Secretary of
0:45:10 > 0:45:13State that we need to know where the parties have got to before we can
0:45:13 > 0:45:19move forward.You can understand why do Sinn Fein and the DUP would not
0:45:19 > 0:45:28want to give away their negotiating positions,.I can't see how they can
0:45:28 > 0:45:37ask for an inclusive process, if they can't even tell the other
0:45:37 > 0:45:42parties what is they have got to we need transparency and be respectful
0:45:42 > 0:45:45of the public and we all need to know what has been going on since
0:45:45 > 0:45:50May of last year. I was involved in the talks before the general
0:45:50 > 0:45:56election last year and they were transparent. What has changed in
0:45:56 > 0:46:02that time, we need to know? Presumably, if these talks are to be
0:46:02 > 0:46:07successful they will require compromise, particularly on the part
0:46:07 > 0:46:12of the DUP and Sinn Fein. If those two parties reveal no negotiating
0:46:12 > 0:46:18hands you will tell the rest of bursts and that will hold them below
0:46:18 > 0:46:22the water line so it doesn't make sense for them to do that.I think
0:46:22 > 0:46:28it makes perfect sense and the public have a right to know where we
0:46:28 > 0:46:33are. Yes, compromise is required. Politics is meant to be the art of
0:46:33 > 0:46:38the possible and is important that we all compromise so that we get
0:46:38 > 0:46:46what is possible. What we have seen in the past year is no government,
0:46:46 > 0:46:50no decisions have been made. We haven't seen any progress on the
0:46:50 > 0:47:00issues that have been proposed, there has been no progress. We need
0:47:00 > 0:47:06a legislative assembly and that is why it is extremely important that
0:47:06 > 0:47:16we focus our energies on redesigning the petition of concern so that it
0:47:16 > 0:47:25can remain as a means of protecting or be used for abuse the rights of
0:47:25 > 0:47:35man or a tease.So is that what you think will be the factor that will
0:47:35 > 0:47:44bring an end to the logjam? Yellow macro it's not a view,.However you
0:47:44 > 0:47:49want to look at it, after the assembly election last March, we
0:47:49 > 0:47:54have brought plenty more to the table and it is important that we
0:47:54 > 0:48:04move forward on the Irish language rights or equal marriage rights, and
0:48:04 > 0:48:12we have gone backwards and all those things have been compromised.Do you
0:48:12 > 0:48:20believe that reform of the petition of concern could be the key?There's
0:48:20 > 0:48:25going to have to be some sort of agreement this week in terms of some
0:48:25 > 0:48:29issues around how that is going to be informed. But there will be some
0:48:29 > 0:48:34things that can be accommodated in advance of that, like the Irish
0:48:34 > 0:48:42language. But we have thought very much at politically but about the
0:48:42 > 0:48:46Irish language act and we would like to see some agreement about same-sex
0:48:46 > 0:48:58marriage. But even the issue about Gerry Kelly, there isn't a standards
0:48:58 > 0:49:08commissioner at the minute,. So the reform of the petition of concern is
0:49:08 > 0:49:14not just about the issues, the big-ticket issues, it cuts right
0:49:14 > 0:49:18across the whole workings of the assembly.Before I ask you about
0:49:18 > 0:49:26Gerry Kelly, is the DUP prepared to compromise to get a deal?We are
0:49:26 > 0:49:34open to the process and I don't know what the stumbling blocks are. The
0:49:34 > 0:49:40Good Friday Agreement, the spirit of Northern Ireland pro takes is based
0:49:40 > 0:49:45on compromise.
0:49:48 > 0:49:52on compromise.Why are members of your party saying that it is
0:49:52 > 0:50:00becoming clearer that the campaign has been hijacked by Sinn Fein to
0:50:00 > 0:50:03promote cultural supremacy. It doesn't look like he's getting ready
0:50:03 > 0:50:11to compromise.We believe very strongly that there should be strong
0:50:11 > 0:50:16protection for the Irish language and we see no need for an Irish
0:50:16 > 0:50:26language act. And it is not for us at this stage, we believe strongly
0:50:26 > 0:50:31that the place to do this is before the assembly in a spirit of
0:50:31 > 0:50:36transparency.But you are not making it easy for the DUP to compromise.
0:50:36 > 0:50:41We are standing by the belief that we have set down everything as a
0:50:41 > 0:50:50party.What do you make of that? That doesn't help anybody towards
0:50:50 > 0:51:00moving towards compromise.No, he said that this could be dealt with
0:51:00 > 0:51:04and we have now seen an interim report and there is no reference to
0:51:04 > 0:51:16it. He has boxed himself into a corner and he needs to get on board
0:51:16 > 0:51:20with a set of proposals and legislation and they have been left
0:51:20 > 0:51:25behind by much on this.And what about the SDLP on the Irish language
0:51:25 > 0:51:35act? Does that have to be one?We are entirely supportive of an Irish
0:51:35 > 0:51:42language act and in the last assembly, my party asked for a bill
0:51:42 > 0:51:52on that.I know that, but will it that....? Yellow macro I believe we
0:51:52 > 0:51:59do need a devolved institution.We need a Irish language act in the
0:51:59 > 0:52:06legislation.Let's move on to the story that we have been talking
0:52:06 > 0:52:10about at the beginning of the programme which is the footage that
0:52:10 > 0:52:16has appeared a Gerry Kelly removing a clamp from his car apparently on
0:52:16 > 0:52:21Friday. What do you make of that? What you think of the implications
0:52:21 > 0:52:27of it for the political process?The fact that Gerry Kelly is a
0:52:27 > 0:52:35spokesperson for Sinn Fein, obviously the police have now been
0:52:35 > 0:52:39involved and the parties have legal representation, so we will see how
0:52:39 > 0:52:45that pans out. But this is the sort of stuff that reflects on the
0:52:45 > 0:52:49behaviour of MPs and we need to get the assembly back up and running so
0:52:49 > 0:52:57that we can address this matter.Are there any circumstances where there
0:52:57 > 0:53:00is possible for someone to remove a wheel clamp with a set of bolts
0:53:00 > 0:53:09cutters? Yellow macro I don't believe the rears.Who carries bolt
0:53:09 > 0:53:16cutters in their boots? I don't think it is acceptable to be seen to
0:53:16 > 0:53:21be doing that. Not only is he a police spokesperson but he is on the
0:53:21 > 0:53:28police board. There has
0:53:29 > 0:53:32police board. There has to be. If the unacceptable to remove it and
0:53:32 > 0:53:37say that's because I had meetings to go to. People don't like being wheel
0:53:37 > 0:53:45clamped, getting fined or getting fined for speeding, but if you break
0:53:45 > 0:53:50the law, then you have to face the consequences. It's not acceptable to
0:53:50 > 0:53:56say that you have somewhere to go and so I removed the clamp.OK, Sinn
0:53:56 > 0:54:01Fein have made it very clear that she Gerry Kelly has passed this
0:54:01 > 0:54:05matter on to his solicitor and his solicitor will be dealing with the
0:54:05 > 0:54:11interim. And Mr Kelly will not be making any further comment. Mark,
0:54:11 > 0:54:17what you make of the footage using? I'm not sure how this will proceed
0:54:17 > 0:54:23legally but what I do think is very important is that politicians are
0:54:23 > 0:54:35not seem to be be owned or above the law. The first thing I saw up --
0:54:35 > 0:54:41what was in Derry, it is still pitch black eight o'clock in the morning,
0:54:41 > 0:54:52so was it a typo in that statement? A bit they will clarify that. I do
0:54:52 > 0:54:58think, Mark, you started our conversation today about the really
0:54:58 > 0:55:01important issues today which is the talks. And we shouldn't be
0:55:01 > 0:55:10distracted by things like this. Let's hear more from Brian and
0:55:10 > 0:55:18Amanda. In terms of these three smaller parties, all five parties
0:55:18 > 0:55:23will be sitting round the table discussing the rest Aleutian of
0:55:23 > 0:55:32devolution since last June. -- the restitution of devolution.It will
0:55:32 > 0:55:38become quickly apparent to the SDLP weather is a process they are part
0:55:38 > 0:55:46of. I have found it difficult to become energised by the current
0:55:46 > 0:55:52phase of talks.Brian, is it a genuine process and does the import
0:55:52 > 0:56:00roll Blunt of the smaller parties matter?No, tomorrow at the DUP and
0:56:00 > 0:56:04Sinn Fein will not say tomorrow where they stand and one of the
0:56:04 > 0:56:09reasons is because the last time the talks were open, confidential
0:56:09 > 0:56:16documents were given to loyalist protesters, so they just don't trust
0:56:16 > 0:56:19the fact that anything they say confidentially will be kept
0:56:19 > 0:56:24confidential. But I think it is also the stage we have reached where
0:56:24 > 0:56:29opinion
0:56:29 > 0:56:34opinion polls, makes it clear that they cannot give an Irish act and
0:56:34 > 0:56:38the position of Sinn Fein as they cannot go back in without an Irish
0:56:38 > 0:56:44language act so there is a complete impasse not just on the Irish
0:56:44 > 0:56:58language, polar's point. Paulus point. At any stage the assembly
0:56:58 > 0:57:03could collapse. If the First Minister resigns, that is it.I
0:57:03 > 0:57:11wonder whether you think Karen Bradley is the person to break the
0:57:11 > 0:57:16logjam. We have had calls for independent talks, she says it is
0:57:16 > 0:57:26not of the table. Lord Eames macro said he'd we need to get involved.
0:57:26 > 0:57:34There is no sign of that happening. I don't think Karen Bradley whizzed
0:57:34 > 0:57:41brought here to inject any new thinking.
0:57:41 > 0:57:54thinking. One of the interesting things about the Irish language act,
0:57:54 > 0:57:59others party support that.The spectre of another assembly election
0:57:59 > 0:58:04was raised during the week, is that a serious runner?I don't think it
0:58:04 > 0:58:09is, if you have the say another election with the same result,, the
0:58:09 > 0:58:18actual campaign will mean there will be no movement afterwards.
0:58:44 > 0:58:49The boundary commission officially would least its review of the 17
0:58:49 > 0:58:57cars are Jewish in constituencies for Northern Ireland.
0:58:57 > 0:59:00for Northern Ireland. -- review of the 17 constituencies within
0:59:00 > 0:59:06Northern Ireland.That was a mistake and people related realise it was a
0:59:06 > 0:59:11mistake.
0:59:12 > 0:59:19mistake.Sorry there has been misunderstanding but there have been
0:59:19 > 0:59:25to bait or questions about whether that will be the right point to make
0:59:25 > 0:59:29a statement about seeing where we are on the talks.
0:59:29 > 0:59:30Enda McClafferty reporting.
0:59:30 > 0:59:32Gerry Adams is beginning his last week
0:59:32 > 0:59:35as Sinn Fein President before he makes way for Mary Lou McDonald.
0:59:35 > 0:59:38Speaking on the Andrew Marr show, he was asked if Brexit
0:59:38 > 0:59:45means his goal of a united Ireland is now more likely.
0:59:45 > 0:59:53I think we need to be very careful that we don't see Brexit as
0:59:53 > 1:00:00something which can be exploited. Brexit is a disaster for the people
1:00:00 > 1:00:08of Ireland. The British government are not at all clear what the
1:00:08 > 1:00:10relationship between the European union is going to be and they are
1:00:10 > 1:00:14arguing that they are going to leave the customs union and they are going
1:00:14 > 1:00:19to lead the single market and that will end up a complete disaster for
1:00:19 > 1:00:27the people here on the island of Ireland. The negotiations have moved
1:00:27 > 1:00:32into the second phase, and it is a fudge and is full of contradictions
1:00:32 > 1:00:36and business people are totally dependent on the flow of back and
1:00:36 > 1:00:43forth of business and commerce but across the border. The harder you
1:00:43 > 1:00:52get the border that will done that. Brian, Mr Adams steps down after 35
1:00:52 > 1:01:00years of the helm. Has his time in charge brought a united Ireland
1:01:00 > 1:01:05closer to a reality?His presence and role in the last 35 years
1:01:05 > 1:01:09certainly hasn't, as things like Brexit, demographic change and
1:01:09 > 1:01:18economic change, but the 35 years of the IRA campaign under Gerry Adams
1:01:18 > 1:01:27leadership certainly hasn't.Do you agree with that?Yes, I think the
1:01:27 > 1:01:30time is now right for the Republicans to set out what Ireland
1:01:30 > 1:01:39should look like.But it is going to be a different Sinn Fein without
1:01:39 > 1:01:46Gerry Adams.Of course. Their ambition is to get
1:01:51 > 1:01:56Welcome back. Our expert panel is still with us to talk through the
1:01:56 > 1:02:00week's events and what we expected, in the near future. One thing that
1:02:00 > 1:02:05made the news was a scuffle at a university in Bristol where Jacob
1:02:05 > 1:02:09Rees Mogg was interrupted by some protesters. Let's take a quick look
1:02:09 > 1:02:11before we talk about it.
1:02:28 > 1:02:33Jacob Rees Mogg, who always seems to be the centre of any story these
1:02:33 > 1:02:37days but Steve, are those unusual scenes at the University political
1:02:37 > 1:02:40meeting or is that happening around the country are not being caught on
1:02:40 > 1:02:45camera and therefore we do not know about it?It is not that unusual and
1:02:45 > 1:02:53it happens at times when politics is at the forefront. There is nothing
1:02:53 > 1:02:59exceptional about the highly charged atmosphere of politics and students
1:02:59 > 1:03:03have always chosen controversial speakers to go to university and get
1:03:03 > 1:03:07a hard time like that. Jacob Rees Mogg is brilliant at dealing with
1:03:07 > 1:03:11people like that. I have seen him at meetings where people have come in
1:03:11 > 1:03:18and he is fantastic. Very polite and courteous. That is the way of doing
1:03:18 > 1:03:22it. It is an absolute myth that something is happening and there is
1:03:22 > 1:03:27a lot going on in politics at the moment that is disturbing. People
1:03:27 > 1:03:33doing this is not justifiable and has always happened.The idea that
1:03:33 > 1:03:37someone would come to speak at the union and someone did not like their
1:03:37 > 1:03:43views and you would put on a balaclava and shout, fascist some at
1:03:43 > 1:03:49them, and think that was acceptable. That did not happen. I'd tell you
1:03:49 > 1:03:58what also did not happen, he was not condoned by the Shadow Chancellor.
1:03:58 > 1:04:04Not condone the behaviour in Bristol.Apart from the fact that
1:04:04 > 1:04:10John McDonnell, not Jeremy Corbyn, has repeatedly encouraged laughter
1:04:10 > 1:04:13from audiences, talking about a violent insurrection against
1:04:13 > 1:04:17politicians. He said he thinks no Tory MP should be able to speak
1:04:17 > 1:04:24publicly without having this sort of behaviour. Condoned by a mainstream
1:04:24 > 1:04:29party, effectively Deputy Leader.I think you meant condemns all
1:04:29 > 1:04:35violence.He says that he has not specifically condemned this. Correct
1:04:35 > 1:04:41me if I am wrong. He has not specifically condemned this.Brandon
1:04:41 > 1:04:45Lewis was trying to say these are elements of the hard left and trying
1:04:45 > 1:04:53to make this a bit of a party political movement. There is no
1:04:53 > 1:04:57evidence that they are associated with the Labour Party.There is a
1:04:57 > 1:05:03little bit of evidence. A lot of these infiltrators are members of
1:05:03 > 1:05:09Momentum and they consider it to Jeremy Corbyn. It is now an official
1:05:09 > 1:05:13Labour Party campaign group. Brandon Lewis is going to jump all over this
1:05:13 > 1:05:19to try to claim huge political capital in a bit of a naughty way.
1:05:19 > 1:05:23Labour frontbenchers are not encouraging their members. There is
1:05:23 > 1:05:28wider truth going on, which is politics is basically getting more
1:05:28 > 1:05:32ideological. The centre ground is weak and has a very poor voice. The
1:05:32 > 1:05:40louder are on the far left and the far right. That is why the centre
1:05:40 > 1:05:43ground have to speak up.There is only one party conference where your
1:05:43 > 1:05:52political editor needs security guards. There is only one another is
1:05:52 > 1:05:55the Labour Party confidence. When Brandon Lewis was here earlier and
1:05:55 > 1:06:00he said the Labour Party wants to stop intimidation in politics, it is
1:06:00 > 1:06:03arguable the public order act allows for that anyway from that nobody
1:06:03 > 1:06:06wants to see people putting themselves forward in public life
1:06:06 > 1:06:13being intimidated. Is this a way of getting political capital out of the
1:06:13 > 1:06:20situation?It is. I remember Keith Joseph, a real innocent right-winger
1:06:20 > 1:06:24going to universities and getting worse treatment than this. I am not
1:06:24 > 1:06:27justifying this treatment was it has always gone on amongst students.
1:06:27 > 1:06:34There is anger that it manifests itself in these stupid ways but has
1:06:34 > 1:06:42always gone on. He is trying to make political capital. Linked to
1:06:42 > 1:06:46Momentum, it is not clear. People are struggling in the media to make
1:06:46 > 1:06:50sense of it. It is different in different places and its influence
1:06:50 > 1:06:54is different in different places. He is trying to make political capital
1:06:54 > 1:06:59out of things that have always gone on.Jacob Rees Mogg is at the centre
1:06:59 > 1:07:04of every story this week. He is deeply critical of Treasury
1:07:04 > 1:07:08forecasts and having a go at the civil servants. He actually accused
1:07:08 > 1:07:11civil servants in the Treasury of fiddling the figures. It was a
1:07:11 > 1:07:17remarkable thing for a senior politician to say when they
1:07:17 > 1:07:19generally pride ourselves on the impartiality of the civil service in
1:07:19 > 1:07:24this country. A former head of the civil service, Gus O'Donnell, said
1:07:24 > 1:07:27this to say.
1:07:27 > 1:07:30We look at the evidence and we go where it is.
1:07:30 > 1:07:33Of course, if you are selling snake oil, you don't like the idea
1:07:33 > 1:07:34of experts testing your product.
1:07:34 > 1:07:36That's what we've got, this backlash of evidence among
1:07:36 > 1:07:42experts is because they know where the experts will go.
1:07:42 > 1:07:46Julia, that is him criticising Brexiteers who have been criticising
1:07:46 > 1:07:50Treasury figures.What do you make of it? What is that an ageing is we
1:07:50 > 1:07:56are forgetting why the Office for Budget Responsibility was set up. It
1:07:56 > 1:08:01was about the fact the Treasury and civil servants were politicising
1:08:01 > 1:08:05these budget predictions and all of these growth predictions and it
1:08:05 > 1:08:11would take the politics out of it and set up the OBR. Why it was
1:08:11 > 1:08:15accepted it was a good idea, we know the civil service, it is ingrained
1:08:15 > 1:08:20in them to be against change it has been ingrained since time in
1:08:20 > 1:08:24memorial. Everyone working for them says they have to work against the
1:08:24 > 1:08:29sluggish view of the civil service. Brexit is the biggest change their
1:08:29 > 1:08:35will take on. They go with the facts. The same civil servants from
1:08:35 > 1:08:40the Treasury are working on those predictions. It was politicised and
1:08:40 > 1:08:47utterly wrong. After the vote to leave, they predicted there would be
1:08:47 > 1:08:535000 job losses and a recession. The people who worked on and on this
1:08:53 > 1:08:55Treasury report, they are either completely politicised, in which
1:08:55 > 1:09:00case they should go, or they are really bad at their jobs, in which
1:09:00 > 1:09:06case they should go.It is quite astonishing to save the Treasury has
1:09:06 > 1:09:09its own political agenda.That is total bunkum. Civil servants have
1:09:09 > 1:09:14views. They are voters that they properly came into the civil service
1:09:14 > 1:09:19because they are
1:09:21 > 1:09:23because they are interested in politics. Civil servants will and
1:09:23 > 1:09:25have carried out brilliant bits of change was that they were behind the
1:09:25 > 1:09:28creation of the NHS and welfare reforms. Everything like that was
1:09:28 > 1:09:36done by civil servants. To think civil servants do things people
1:09:36 > 1:09:38disapprove of and an ideological perspective that Julia will not like
1:09:38 > 1:09:42is because they are not being given direction by ministers for the if
1:09:42 > 1:09:45ministers run civil servants properly they will get results that
1:09:45 > 1:09:54they want. Civil servants have had a woeful leadership from the
1:09:54 > 1:09:57Government about Brexit because the Government will not get off the
1:09:57 > 1:10:02fence.They may well have to this week. They have two meetings this
1:10:02 > 1:10:08week. Will we have any further clarity by the end of that what the
1:10:08 > 1:10:14Government wants the end state to be?It will be what it appears to be
1:10:14 > 1:10:19now, which is, you have your cake and eat its strategy. Theresa May
1:10:19 > 1:10:24will emerge from these two important meetings and will say that we want
1:10:24 > 1:10:28some kind of continued free trade relationship with Europe but we want
1:10:28 > 1:10:33to be free to make our own trade deals. B want a soft border with
1:10:33 > 1:10:37Ireland and so did be you and now we will go in and negotiate. It seems
1:10:37 > 1:10:46to me that is where the problem begins. -- the EU. She will
1:10:46 > 1:10:49begins. -- the EU. She will not a have your cake and eat it option.
1:10:49 > 1:10:54There are tensions about the relationship with the customs union.
1:10:54 > 1:10:58You mentioned her speech about an associate membership with the
1:10:58 > 1:11:02customs union.There has been a huge row about whether we are leaving the
1:11:02 > 1:11:05customs union but could be being our customs union question that she had
1:11:05 > 1:11:11said I want is to have a customs agreement. Why is this such a fault
1:11:11 > 1:11:20line within the party?It comes down to the absolute epicentre all now up
1:11:20 > 1:11:31of Brexit if there is such a thing. -- nub. A senior Cabinet minister,
1:11:31 > 1:11:42they said, the customs union is the fault line driving right through the
1:11:42 > 1:11:46Cabinet on Brexit. It always was and always will be full to the customs
1:11:46 > 1:11:50union is the one thing that will either stop the Brexiteers getting
1:11:50 > 1:11:55what they want out of Brexit, which is trade deals with the rest of the
1:11:55 > 1:11:59world. They remain as corrupt or soft Brexiteers with what they want,
1:11:59 > 1:12:05which is closer links with the EU. That is why there is such strong
1:12:05 > 1:12:09disagreement. There will be yet another fudge in Cabinet because it
1:12:09 > 1:12:14is too hard to make a binary decision. That will go to the EU.
1:12:14 > 1:12:20The EU will look at it and say, this is cake and eat it verge, decide.
1:12:20 > 1:12:27That is the key moment.It is extraordinary. -- fudge. It
1:12:27 > 1:12:34certainly should not be decided now that the idea they will decided in a
1:12:34 > 1:12:39four our debate is rather unlikely. Also if you end up with a situation
1:12:39 > 1:12:45which does not explain with much clarity, it will not stop the noises
1:12:45 > 1:12:51from the rest of the party, will it? That has been unstoppable for 30
1:12:51 > 1:12:56years. That will be the constant background hum. It is the fate of
1:12:56 > 1:13:01every Tory leader to try to navigate around that noise. Of course, Europe
1:13:01 > 1:13:06has brought down the last three Tory Prime Minister. Although earlier I
1:13:06 > 1:13:12cautious about saying whether she would fall over the next few months,
1:13:12 > 1:13:17Europe is the thing that torment is Tory leaders.The alternative, could
1:13:17 > 1:13:22a non-Brexiteer come through and become Tory leader and then Prime
1:13:22 > 1:13:25Minister have another election? Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of
1:13:25 > 1:13:26Brexit.
1:13:26 > 1:13:27That's all for today.
1:13:27 > 1:13:30Join me again next Sunday at 11 here on BBC One.
1:13:30 > 1:13:33Until then, bye-bye.