:01:27. > :01:31.In Northern Ireland are we hear from the justice minister David
:01:31. > :01:41.Ford as another supergrass trial collapses.
:01:41. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :31:15.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 1773 seconds
:31:15. > :31:19.A are struggling homeowners here Welcome to the programme.
:31:19. > :31:25.Are we ready for the benefit changes coming down the line from
:31:26. > :31:30.London? Is it fair to treat the whole of the UK the same way?
:31:30. > :31:34.hoping the Executive will take the opportunity to include some
:31:34. > :31:41.commitment to initiatives which will help to manage the situation
:31:41. > :31:48.for people here. Happiest in the UK, apparently. We will be finding out
:31:48. > :31:52.from two of our MLA is what keeps them smiling.
:31:52. > :31:58.We start today with justice, and the Department lives to fight
:31:58. > :32:02.another day after the Assembly back to its survival beyond May's sunset
:32:03. > :32:06.clause. Friday saw the collapse of yet another loyalist court case
:32:06. > :32:16.after four men walked free after that prosecution failed to present
:32:16. > :32:17.
:32:17. > :32:24.any evidence. The judge rejected testimony saying it was infected
:32:24. > :32:29.with lies. David Ford is worth a. Let's start with that child. The
:32:29. > :32:34.lack of conviction has been described as supergrass Mark two.
:32:34. > :32:39.Since the law was changed in 2005 there have to be reasons why
:32:39. > :32:43.assisting offenders get reductions in sentences. It is clear, open and
:32:44. > :32:47.transparent. The judge in this case said there was a case to answer
:32:47. > :32:51.because when the prosecution evidence closed there was an
:32:51. > :32:56.application by the defence to have the case thrown out. And he
:32:57. > :33:01.proceeded at that stage, so clearly there were issues to be determined.
:33:01. > :33:05.The conviction was not on the base of the supergrass evidence. No. But
:33:05. > :33:11.the issue is not about whether we're talking simply about
:33:11. > :33:17.supergrasses, it is if we have an open and transparent way that shows
:33:17. > :33:21.how it defendants are being treated. But the outcome is the same. It did
:33:21. > :33:26.not work in the 1980s because a discredited the justice system, and
:33:26. > :33:31.surely it is in danger of doing it this time. The judge except at the
:33:31. > :33:35.operation of the law as it currently is. He made no
:33:35. > :33:44.recommendations for changes in the law. What he said was the evidence
:33:44. > :33:46.did not stand up to prove that it be for all reasonable doubt. The
:33:46. > :33:51.Public Prosecution Service determine whether they think there
:33:51. > :33:59.is a case to answer, up one which is worth putting before a judge and
:33:59. > :34:03.the judge determines. That is the way the system works. There are
:34:03. > :34:08.other cases in the pipeline using this accomplice evidence. Is there
:34:08. > :34:14.anything you can do us justice minister to sure we're not back in
:34:14. > :34:19.his position in two or three years' time? It is not my job to second
:34:19. > :34:25.guess the job of the police, or to second-guess what a judge
:34:25. > :34:31.determines. It would be my job to go to the Assembly if there were
:34:31. > :34:35.regions to -- reasons to change that law. If more cases fail, do
:34:35. > :34:42.you think there would be more reason to change the law? They cost
:34:42. > :34:48.an enormous amount of money. have seen a conviction using this
:34:48. > :34:54.evidence. The case of Brown were eight conviction was upheld on
:34:54. > :34:59.appeal. The judge in that occasion said the law worked. We have had
:34:59. > :35:04.similar cases under the same lob. These have carried through across
:35:04. > :35:09.the water as well. It is not that the law was wrong, it is that the
:35:09. > :35:12.evidence did not persuade a judge beyond all reasonable doubt. Given
:35:12. > :35:16.the hundreds of interviews that were carried out with these
:35:16. > :35:22.brothers, are there not people you could look in and say, that was
:35:22. > :35:26.never going to persuade a judge? You are now asking me to be the
:35:26. > :35:30.Director of Public Prosecutions, that is not my job. But it is your
:35:30. > :35:36.job to make sure we all have faith in the justice system, is it not?
:35:36. > :35:41.Then you should listen to what the judge said. The legislation works.
:35:41. > :35:44.The evidence did not add up. What about what the director of
:35:44. > :35:49.prosecutions has been saying this week. 50% of cases they get from
:35:49. > :35:53.the police have to go back. Some of them in very serious cases. Is
:35:53. > :35:59.there nothing you can do about that to try and speed up the system and
:35:59. > :36:06.make the process better, the police files more robust? As I understand,
:36:06. > :36:13.he did not say 50% of all cases, where he said 50% of serious cases.
:36:13. > :36:17.That is why I am making the issue of speeding up just as one of my
:36:17. > :36:22.priorities. That is why I went to the Criminal Justice Board and my
:36:22. > :36:28.second week in of us whether senior officers of all the agencies come
:36:28. > :36:32.together, that is why I have set up a group which we have had judicial
:36:32. > :36:36.involvement with to see how we address this issue of the delay.
:36:37. > :36:46.One of the key issues is getting better working between the police
:36:46. > :36:51.and the PPS. We have greater engagement between them, and we
:36:51. > :36:54.have much more constructive and positive atmosphere. At think the
:36:54. > :36:58.new director and then the assistant chief constable are helping it in
:36:58. > :37:03.that respect. There is a lot still to do, but I believe we are
:37:03. > :37:07.starting to see improvements. is a review going on about the
:37:07. > :37:13.relationship between the BPs and the Department of Justice.
:37:13. > :37:17.Obviously we have to wait to find out, but do you need more powers as
:37:17. > :37:21.the minister of justice? One of the things not in the review his powers
:37:21. > :37:29.for the minister. It looks at things out the role of the
:37:29. > :37:34.Attorney-General. I do not think there is any question that the
:37:34. > :37:40.Ministry of Justice would have any direct role in the decisions of the
:37:40. > :37:44.DPP. The issues are with the work we're doing and with the Criminal
:37:44. > :37:48.Justice Board to speed things up, to enhance co-operation and find
:37:48. > :37:53.better ways of working. That has a knock-on effect right the way
:37:53. > :37:58.through the system. Almost a third of those in prison are there on
:37:58. > :38:02.demand because it has taken so long to get them to trial. That means it
:38:02. > :38:07.is more difficult to work with them. I want to ask you about divided
:38:07. > :38:12.societies. Since you have been justice minister we have had a
:38:12. > :38:17.Peace Wall come down. What else is coming up in the future? There's a
:38:17. > :38:22.lot of work going on in different areas. You may have seen a couple
:38:22. > :38:27.of weeks ago that its significant amount of money has been given to
:38:27. > :38:30.reduce tensions in communities. We have now got into the programme for
:38:30. > :38:35.government a specific proposal for working to reduce tensions, to
:38:35. > :38:41.remove these barriers. That is a sign of partnership between local
:38:41. > :38:45.communities, my department, and number of agencies we are all
:38:45. > :38:49.working together to bring about the circumstances were barriers can be
:38:49. > :38:56.opened. We have seen a lot of progress in the last few months.
:38:56. > :39:00.There are other programmes on the way. Let's bring on our guests,
:39:00. > :39:05.Caitriona Ruane and, obviously you colleague was giving his operation
:39:05. > :39:11.-- opposition to the supergrass trials. What is Sinn Fein's
:39:11. > :39:16.alternative? The minister spoke about the supergrass trial, saying
:39:16. > :39:21.they stood up in court. I would question the legislation that
:39:21. > :39:27.underpins these trials. We saw in the past what happened when we had
:39:27. > :39:31.supergrass trials. It undermined the legal system. Using this
:39:31. > :39:35.legislation has the potential to further undermine the legal system.
:39:35. > :39:40.The alternatives are a good policing, good court work, and
:39:40. > :39:46.making sure that the hard graft is done in building up evidence. Not
:39:46. > :39:53.being expedient, not taking short cuts. The other point here is that
:39:53. > :39:57.the minister mentioned Mark Haddock. The victims of the UVF did not get
:39:57. > :40:01.just as this week. The justice they will get is when we get absolute
:40:01. > :40:06.truth. One of the big factors in all this is the role of agents of
:40:06. > :40:10.the state and the role it played. When you get into the realms of the
:40:10. > :40:15.murky world of criminals, it is difficult to get evidence from
:40:15. > :40:21.people. Surely it worked in the case in Dublin with that of a case
:40:21. > :40:25.of the murdered journalist. It has been used in other jurisdictions.
:40:25. > :40:29.Are they not occasions when it can bring successful prosecutions?
:40:29. > :40:34.not believe we should be taking short cuts in relation to the
:40:34. > :40:38.gathering of evidence. I have been a human rights activist all my life.
:40:38. > :40:44.If you look at where we have good justice systems, it is where you
:40:44. > :40:47.abide by the rule of law. Where you have good standards of human rights
:40:47. > :40:53.compliance legislation. The legislation these trials were
:40:53. > :40:57.carried out under his flawed legislation. What are your
:40:57. > :41:02.constituents saying about the supergrass trials? I do not often
:41:02. > :41:11.find myself in a position where I agree with Katrina Rwanda, but I
:41:11. > :41:17.agree with her on this case. -- Katrina row man. I believe that
:41:17. > :41:22.that supergrass trials are easily discredited. I believe there has to
:41:22. > :41:27.be a better way of bringing in these people to justice. Minister,
:41:27. > :41:33.a final word from you. It does appear that people are unhappy
:41:33. > :41:37.across this across the political divide. Just to remind David, we
:41:37. > :41:41.did have a successful case a couple of years ago. The two dreadful
:41:41. > :41:46.murders were brown was convicted on the evidence of an accomplice who
:41:46. > :41:51.got a reduced sentence for his part. He was a credible witness who stood
:41:51. > :41:56.up in court. But it does not happen often enough, and that is the
:41:56. > :41:59.problem. Clearly there is difficulty, but when you have
:41:59. > :42:04.circumstances were two people took part in criminal activity and are
:42:04. > :42:10.prepared to give evidence, we have to treat that very seriously.
:42:10. > :42:15.Unlike what happened previously, there are real issues about
:42:15. > :42:19.insuring that the director has referred back the lenient sentences
:42:19. > :42:23.for consideration as to whether the Stuart brothers should have
:42:23. > :42:29.received those lenient sentences. That is something which do not
:42:29. > :42:33.happen previously. We will have to leave it there.
:42:34. > :42:37.House prices and incomes are falling and repossessions are
:42:37. > :42:42.rising. That is the reality for thousands of homeowners struggling
:42:42. > :42:52.to pay their mortgage. What are local politicians doing to help
:42:52. > :43:04.
:43:05. > :43:09.those who face using their homes. - Property auctions are for the quick
:43:09. > :43:15.and of the brave. For those who hold their nerve, there are Burke -
:43:15. > :43:24.- bargains to be had. At this auction most of the properties were
:43:24. > :43:28.repossessions. Houses are being sold a 20,000, 25,000. We're
:43:28. > :43:33.attempting to hold four auctions this year. We advertise this three
:43:33. > :43:40.weeks ago, and the response we have got has been tremendous. Many of
:43:40. > :43:44.the homes were snapped up by cash rich investors. I do not think the
:43:44. > :43:49.banks want to lend anyone money, let alone the young people. Young
:43:49. > :43:55.people are less likely to hold down a job. What did you think of the
:43:55. > :44:02.prices? Brilliant. I could not get over it. Houses were going for
:44:02. > :44:07.nothing. Houses you could very easily turn into a dream home.
:44:07. > :44:09.person's dream is another's nightmare. The programme has spoken
:44:09. > :44:15.to David who missed his mortgage payments when he was injured and
:44:15. > :44:19.unable to work. Everything went pear-shaped. Instead of getting in
:44:19. > :44:23.touch with that mortgage company, I buried my head in the ground
:44:23. > :44:28.thinking the problems would go wave. I was getting depressed and not
:44:28. > :44:33.sleeping. Eventually the letters were coming in about repossessions.
:44:34. > :44:38.You are up in court and then it is repossession. Dividend up in the
:44:38. > :44:48.High Court, but thanks to the help of charities he was able to keep
:44:48. > :44:49.
:44:49. > :44:59.his home and reduce his mortgage repayments. Between April and 20th
:44:59. > :45:05.September 10 Mortgage lenders made a lot of money. The number of cases
:45:06. > :45:11.that went as far as repossession surged to nearly 1000. An increase
:45:11. > :45:15.of nearly 50%. It used to take a year from one an
:45:15. > :45:19.order was granted to when a householder could be evicted. Signs
:45:19. > :45:23.to the allocation of resources to the enforcement of judgment offers
:45:23. > :45:28.that time has come down to six months. Northern Ireland has the
:45:28. > :45:34.highest level of repossession activity compared to anywhere in
:45:35. > :45:41.the UK. What we really need to see is some collective action on behalf
:45:41. > :45:44.of our Executive here locally. That is what we have been asking for.
:45:44. > :45:48.Also the programme for government is due very shore leave. We are
:45:48. > :45:52.hoping that the Executive will take the opportunity there to conclude
:45:52. > :46:02.some commitment to initiatives that would help to manage the situation
:46:02. > :46:04.
:46:04. > :46:10.for people here and mitigate the impact. The minister has previously
:46:10. > :46:13.expressed support for the idea of a mortgage rescue scheme here, but to
:46:13. > :46:17.DST told us in a statement they believe there would only help a
:46:17. > :46:22.small proportion of those facing repossession or would be extremely
:46:22. > :46:32.expensive to operate. It seems unlikely the department will
:46:32. > :46:33.
:46:33. > :46:37.replicate the scheme is currently Grim news for people who are
:46:37. > :46:41.struggling to pay these mortgages. It is indeed. Than the news
:46:41. > :46:45.yesterday were some other banks and building societies are about to
:46:45. > :46:50.increase their mortgage lending rates, if they start others will
:46:50. > :46:55.follow. This will exacerbate the problem. There are so many people
:46:55. > :47:05.out there and the figures that had just been given indicate that they
:47:05. > :47:06.
:47:06. > :47:10.have risen in 2011 by 50%. Katrina Rwanda, your party is one of the
:47:11. > :47:16.strongest in the Executive. This issue of parity keeps coming out.
:47:16. > :47:20.Here is a classic example of where we are losing out. What we need to
:47:20. > :47:28.do is everything we can do to support people who are suffering
:47:28. > :47:37.dreadfully during these difficult economic times. This comes under
:47:37. > :47:39.two ministers in the Executive. Margaret Ritchie told us she was
:47:39. > :47:45.going to bring a mortgage relief scheme and we are still awaiting
:47:45. > :47:49.that. It looks like it will not happen. Should Sinn Fein not be
:47:49. > :47:53.putting more pressure on? We are very clear that housing
:47:53. > :47:58.associations should be given the power to buy some of the houses
:47:58. > :48:02.that are being repossessed and then ran them back to people. David Ford
:48:02. > :48:08.was just here, his department also has a responsibility. They do give
:48:08. > :48:11.advice to people going to court. But in England there is funding for
:48:11. > :48:16.legal-aid, here in the north of Ireland there is not that same
:48:16. > :48:22.funding. People are the disadvantaged taking on big banks.
:48:22. > :48:27.We have to look at the role of banks in our economic situation.
:48:27. > :48:32.They are putting some of the most vulnerable in court without legal
:48:32. > :48:37.advice. I do want to pay tribute to the housing rights associations,
:48:37. > :48:41.they are doing good work but not getting the support they deserve.
:48:41. > :48:51.It has finally been confirmed, despite the recession, we are the
:48:51. > :48:59.
:48:59. > :49:03.happiest area in the UK. Or are we? The week began with the First
:49:03. > :49:09.Minister explaining one idea at on how to deal with the past. There
:49:09. > :49:15.should be a storytelling archive, we have talked about that even at
:49:15. > :49:25.the new centre we are building. MLA even had trouble remembering
:49:25. > :49:28.
:49:28. > :49:33.the past. The member of the Covent was signed this year, 100 years ago.
:49:33. > :49:40.Pensioners are told their free bus passes might have to go.
:49:40. > :49:43.Terry George arrived in style in Holywood, picking up an Oscar. Back
:49:43. > :49:47.home we were told we were the happiest in the UK, but David
:49:47. > :49:52.Cameron needed some convincing. am delighted to hear the people of
:49:52. > :49:54.Northern Ireland are the happiest in the UK, I have to say to the
:49:54. > :50:03.honourable gentleman, their representatives in this House do
:50:03. > :50:08.not always give that impression. David McClarty, are we really happy
:50:08. > :50:13.or rather rest of the UK even more miserable than us? We are a happy
:50:13. > :50:17.people, but some of us do not tell our faces that we are. The people
:50:17. > :50:22.here have a wonderful sense of humour, and even in hard times we
:50:22. > :50:27.see the humour in it. That is the great thing about being from
:50:27. > :50:30.Northern Ireland. You mentioned being a human rights activists,
:50:30. > :50:36.that obviously means a lot of problems you're looking at. What
:50:36. > :50:41.keeps you smiling? We live in a beautiful island, it is green.
:50:41. > :50:47.We're coming up to St Patrick's Day and everyone is celebrating. After
:50:47. > :50:53.I leave here I'm going to plant my potatoes. And my little grandchild