04/12/2016

:00:38. > :00:44.Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson accepts we might continue to pay EU

:00:45. > :00:47.budget contributions even after we leave, but says

:00:48. > :00:53.Tim Farron says his party's dramatic win in the Richmond Park by-election

:00:54. > :00:57.is a vote against a so-called "hard" Brexit.

:00:58. > :01:00.But do the Lib Dems really want any kind of Brexit at all?

:01:01. > :01:05.We speak to former party leader Nick Clegg.

:01:06. > :01:08.Ukip's new leader says he wants to "replace Labour".

:01:09. > :01:13.And in Northern Ireland... because of the party leadership's

:01:14. > :01:15.He's balanced his flagship projects to the east

:01:16. > :01:17.and west of the Bann, but the demands continue

:01:18. > :01:20.The Infrastructure Minister, Chris Hazzard, joins us live -

:01:21. > :01:33.Why did the people of Richmond Park vote the way they did?

:01:34. > :01:37.And with me - as always - three fully paid-up members

:01:38. > :01:39.of the metropolitan elite - although which metropolis,

:01:40. > :01:43.Toby Young, Helen Lewis and Tom Newton Dunn, who'll be

:01:44. > :01:49.So, the Foreign Secretary, Boris Johnson, has accepted that

:01:50. > :01:55.Britain might pay something into the EU budget after Brexit,

:01:56. > :01:58.though he says there is no reason why they should be too onerous.

:01:59. > :02:00.That was after the Secretary of State for Exiting the EU,

:02:01. > :02:06.David Davis, suggested earlier this week that Britain would indeed

:02:07. > :02:10.consider paying for access to EU markets after Brexit.

:02:11. > :02:13.Here is what Mr Johnson said on the Marr Show earlier.

:02:14. > :02:15.A lot of people will be watching, thinking -

:02:16. > :02:19.hold on a second, after Brexit, are we are going to be paying large

:02:20. > :02:21.amounts of money to the EU, in return for access to markets?

:02:22. > :02:24.Well, I've given you an indication of the kind of payments that

:02:25. > :02:32.My own view is, I see no reason why those payments should be large.

:02:33. > :02:35.And as I say, I do see a big opportunity for us to take the money

:02:36. > :02:46.that we're getting back and spend it on other priorities.

:02:47. > :02:53.Toby, the papers this morning, they are awash with the minutiae of

:02:54. > :02:58.Brexit, spinning whatever they have got depending on whether they are

:02:59. > :03:04.Remain or Leave. Is it not getting as close to ridiculous? It does feel

:03:05. > :03:09.a bit absurd and it is unfortunately the effect of the Government not

:03:10. > :03:13.announcing, not declaring what its Brexit strategy is going to be.

:03:14. > :03:17.Because the Dortmund has said it cannot do that without showing its

:03:18. > :03:21.hand in the forthcoming negotiations, it is difficult to go

:03:22. > :03:25.back on that -- the Government. I think we will see this fee per

:03:26. > :03:30.speculation for months if not years. The observer is leading with a

:03:31. > :03:35.couple of die-hard Remain Tories, not happy, surprise, surprise! The

:03:36. > :03:40.Telegraph, in Leave paper, saying the Italian Ambassador did not say

:03:41. > :03:46.this about Boris Johnson this week. Sky News ran the story endlessly

:03:47. > :03:51.last week. But Toby is right, this sort of flotsam and gets in, the

:03:52. > :03:56.Government has itself to blame. Yes, and we have now got Queen of Brexit,

:03:57. > :04:04.dirty Brexit, white, grey, hard, soft. This is about Single Market

:04:05. > :04:09.and that is what this is about. No wait pays more per capita into the

:04:10. > :04:14.budget to access this European Economic Area and that is what we

:04:15. > :04:19.need more clarity about. Not more than we do but a lot. More per

:04:20. > :04:24.capita, I believe it is 79. It pays a what! . Boris Johnson said we do

:04:25. > :04:29.not want to pay, only a small amount. This is the bad news that

:04:30. > :04:34.would suggest, this is going to continue until the Government fills

:04:35. > :04:40.the vacuum, which means not this year. No, probably not next year

:04:41. > :04:43.either because we should not expect anything revolutionary from the

:04:44. > :04:47.Government when Theresa May does trigger Article 50. Maybe not even

:04:48. > :04:52.in 2018 because we will only know the shape of the deal and what we

:04:53. > :04:56.get in 2019. They will have the alpine strategic goals. No, I don't

:04:57. > :05:00.think they will do. They can keep going along with this line of the

:05:01. > :05:04.best possible trade deal and controlling immigration with maybe a

:05:05. > :05:10.couple more details of, we are prepared to consider contributions.

:05:11. > :05:13.And on that, I would suggest the BBC is misreporting Boris Johnson. I did

:05:14. > :05:18.not hear him at any stage this morning say he is happy with budget

:05:19. > :05:22.contributions, he is merely happy to contribute a small schemes like

:05:23. > :05:25.Rasmus. Contributing to the budget is different, it is paying billions

:05:26. > :05:30.potentially into a pool of money which if you are out of the EU, you

:05:31. > :05:35.have even less control. David Davis was talking of a bit more than that

:05:36. > :05:38.but it wasn't specified. It is a red flag for a lot of people who thought

:05:39. > :05:47.there would be more money to spend this country if we left the EU. The

:05:48. > :05:53.famous figure on the bus. The more they spend in other ways, the less

:05:54. > :05:57.there will be. That is true, but the Helen is right. It looks as though

:05:58. > :06:01.we are beginning to glimpse a government strategy and they are

:06:02. > :06:06.willing to pay to access the Single Market and a negotiation will partly

:06:07. > :06:10.be about how much. One aspect often overlooked is the Article 50

:06:11. > :06:14.negotiation is separate from a free trade negotiation. They often get

:06:15. > :06:18.run together and we do not know if the negotiations towards agreeing a

:06:19. > :06:21.free trade agreement can begin at the same time as the Article 50

:06:22. > :06:38.negotiations or whether they have to wait until the Article 50

:06:39. > :06:41.deal has been concluded before embarking on the free trade

:06:42. > :06:43.negotiation. They have to do that, there will be speculation about what

:06:44. > :06:47.that looks like 45, maybe ten years. I understand they intend to do it in

:06:48. > :06:48.parallel but do not take that to the bank! That is a caveat otherwise she

:06:49. > :06:49.would be criticising us again! After a devastating

:06:50. > :06:51.general election, you'd be forgiven for thinking

:06:52. > :06:53.that the Liberal Democrats were But earlier this week,

:06:54. > :06:58.the party won a stunning by-election victory in Richmond Park,

:06:59. > :07:00.overturning Zac Goldsmith's 23,000 The new MP, Sarah Olney,

:07:01. > :07:08.has even gone as far as to suggest that the result paved the way

:07:09. > :07:10.for Parliament to "override" Here she is talking

:07:11. > :07:15.to reporters after her victory. Are you still going to vote

:07:16. > :07:18.against Article 50, and isn't that flying in the face of what the rest

:07:19. > :07:25.of the country voted That's the commitment

:07:26. > :07:27.I made in my campaign. My by-election victory means I have

:07:28. > :07:29.got a personal mandate from the voters of Richmond Park

:07:30. > :07:32.that that is what A third of Tory Leavers

:07:33. > :07:35.voted Liberal Democrat yesterday because they say,

:07:36. > :07:37.hang about, this is not what we voted for, Theresa May

:07:38. > :07:40.is taking a Ukip-ish slant They want a country that is open,

:07:41. > :07:46.tolerant and united. It is not 48 versus 52,

:07:47. > :07:49.it's about the country coming together behind a moderate,

:07:50. > :07:50.progressive opposition I'm joined now by the former leader

:07:51. > :07:54.of the Liberal Democrats and former Deputy Prime Minister,

:07:55. > :07:55.Nick Clegg. He is now the party's

:07:56. > :08:05.Brexit spokesman. Welcome back to the programme. Tim

:08:06. > :08:12.Farron says Richmond is a rejection of Brexit and the 2015 General

:08:13. > :08:16.Election, even Donald Trump, which will be news to America. In what way

:08:17. > :08:22.does 20,000 people voting for the Lib Dems in one of the most affluent

:08:23. > :08:26.anti-Brexit constituencies in the country mean any of that? I think

:08:27. > :08:34.when these by-elections happen, people quite rightly both for and

:08:35. > :08:38.against say all sorts of things which either turn out or not to be

:08:39. > :08:41.true. I think clearly you cannot extrapolate from one part of

:08:42. > :08:46.south-west London to the rest of the country. I heard the result in South

:08:47. > :08:49.West Sheffield, very different in south-west London. Having spent a

:08:50. > :08:53.lot of time in the Richmond campaign, the most significant thing

:08:54. > :08:57.was not about the details of Article 50 and Single Market, it was a very

:08:58. > :09:00.strong feeling among those kind of people, and there are millions

:09:01. > :09:11.around the country, who feel that because they disagreed with the

:09:12. > :09:13.outcome on June 23rd, they are being delegitimised and no longer entitled

:09:14. > :09:16.to hold those views, they are shouted down as moaners and people

:09:17. > :09:18.living in denial. It is always emotion driving these things more

:09:19. > :09:23.than cerebral ideas. It was that emotion that came through in the

:09:24. > :09:26.by-election. Next week, we have a by-election in a place that voted

:09:27. > :09:30.60% to leave and I would suggest your party will not win that is, a

:09:31. > :09:35.Brexit supporter will win that comfortably. So a big Remain

:09:36. > :09:41.constituency votes to remain and a big Leave votes to leave. Ukip might

:09:42. > :09:46.win and if that happens, it might reveal that as politics becomes more

:09:47. > :09:51.defined buying Brexit, it is the parties with the clearest positions,

:09:52. > :09:55.in this case Ukip and the Liberal Democrats, who communicate more

:09:56. > :09:58.clearly with the public. And the mainstream parties are increasingly

:09:59. > :10:03.divided and opaque in what they really mean. We will see what

:10:04. > :10:07.happens. Let's look at how clear cut your party's position is. Sarah

:10:08. > :10:13.Olney, your new MP for Richmond, will vote against triggering Article

:10:14. > :10:17.50, what may, is that Liberal Democrat policy? No, that is her

:10:18. > :10:20.personal mandate as the clip shows that is has a mandate she feels she

:10:21. > :10:25.has received because that is the basis upon which she put herself

:10:26. > :10:28.forward to the people of Richmond. You will not vote against Article

:10:29. > :10:34.50? There are certain cases in which I would. If you got a second

:10:35. > :10:38.referendum, you would not? If I got a second and the Government would

:10:39. > :10:41.keep us in the Single Market, I would not. You brought this idea of

:10:42. > :10:48.a second referendum on the deal itself. Most EU leaders do not want

:10:49. > :10:51.us to leave and they are the ones we negotiate with. If they know there

:10:52. > :10:57.is a vote on the terms, surely they have a massive incentive to give the

:10:58. > :11:02.worst possible deal? This goes back to the origins of the debate prior

:11:03. > :11:08.to the vote on June 23rd. What is haunting the nation is the fact that

:11:09. > :11:13.the Brexit backers did not spell out what they meant. You will no doubt

:11:14. > :11:17.quote this and that but there is no manifesto from Nigel Farage, Michael

:11:18. > :11:20.Gove and Boris Johnson, United and coherent, not talking about

:11:21. > :11:26.television clips watched by fractions of the electorate... On

:11:27. > :11:30.crucial things like whether we stay in the Single Market, absolutely

:11:31. > :11:35.not. The official Leave campaign, the framework document widely

:11:36. > :11:38.covered by the media said, we want the supremacy of EU law and the

:11:39. > :11:44.European Court of jurisdiction the end, we want budget contributions to

:11:45. > :11:48.end, we want the EU's control over UK borders the end and we want the

:11:49. > :11:53.UK to leave the common commercial policy. A way of describing the

:11:54. > :11:58.Single Market. No, it is the Customs Union. The only person in British

:11:59. > :12:01.politics... Plenty of leaders of the Leave campaign said they wanted to

:12:02. > :12:05.leave the Single Market. The common commercial policy is not the Single

:12:06. > :12:08.Market. They talk about the Single Market, they want to leave the

:12:09. > :12:13.Customs Union as well. They want to leave the Single Market. We should

:12:14. > :12:18.be really clear, why is it in that case that ministers from this Brexit

:12:19. > :12:21.government do not come before Parliament now to say we stick to

:12:22. > :12:26.what we apparently said so clearly? They did not, it was much more

:12:27. > :12:30.opaque. We will rule out the Norway option. Let's look at what the

:12:31. > :12:34.leaders of your side of the campaign and the leaders of the Leave

:12:35. > :12:38.campaign said when asked about the Single Market. Can we see that now?

:12:39. > :12:42.The British public would be voting if we leave to leave the EU and

:12:43. > :12:46.still be the Single Market. Should we come out of the Single Market? I

:12:47. > :12:50.think that almost certainly would be the case, yes. Do you want is to

:12:51. > :12:55.stay inside the Single Market, yes or no? No, we should be outside the

:12:56. > :12:59.Single Market. I said to Michael Gove, after Brexit, will we be

:13:00. > :13:04.inside the Single Market, and he said no. He was right. We would be

:13:05. > :13:08.out of the Single Market, that is the reality, Britain would be

:13:09. > :13:11.quitting. Quitting the Single Market.

:13:12. > :13:17.Where was the manifesto? Where was the document? Where was the

:13:18. > :13:21.manifesto from the key Brexiteers, Johnson, Gove and Farrage, saying,

:13:22. > :13:25.British people, this is what will happen if you read the European

:13:26. > :13:29.Union. It was not there because it is not as if we were not warned.

:13:30. > :13:33.Dominik Commons, apparently the intellectual architect of the

:13:34. > :13:38.campaign, said it is very important we do not say what we mean. People

:13:39. > :13:41.watching this programme will see clearly what they said. Sorry to

:13:42. > :13:46.break this to you but what someone says to you and mumbles in admission

:13:47. > :13:49.on the cross questioning from you in a television studio watched by a

:13:50. > :13:54.fraction of the Electric is not the same as putting me for the British

:13:55. > :13:56.people a clear plan. Wear with a policy documents? It is very

:13:57. > :14:01.important because you have gone round in circles on this for weeks.

:14:02. > :14:04.Let me explain... I am trying to get you to understand reading people in

:14:05. > :14:08.the campaign made it clear we would leave the Single Market as members.

:14:09. > :14:15.Why did David Steve said after the referendum, not even before, in a

:14:16. > :14:20.post on this famous essay before he became Brexit Secretary, why did he

:14:21. > :14:24.say he bought Single Market arrangement should continue? Why did

:14:25. > :14:27.Greg Clark, a Minister when negotiating with Nissan, say, we are

:14:28. > :14:31.pursuing not only trade arrangements with the rest of the European Union

:14:32. > :14:36.free of tariffs, free of bureaucratic impediments. You know

:14:37. > :14:38.as well as I do that you cannot have tried very bureaucratic impediments

:14:39. > :14:43.other than being a member of the Single Market.

:14:44. > :14:48.shutter If the second referendum also important, why didn't you

:14:49. > :14:52.mention it? We were fighting to stay in. But you never said that if you

:14:53. > :14:54.lost there would have to be a referendum on the deal itself? Let's

:14:55. > :14:56.look at you said. It's quite, quite different

:14:57. > :14:58.to any other kind of vote It's not like a general election,

:14:59. > :15:05.however important they seem, that binds the hands of the next

:15:06. > :15:09.Parliament, for the next five years, or set expectations

:15:10. > :15:25.about what a government will do. Once in a generation. It is clear

:15:26. > :15:29.now that was only a few won. If you lost, you wanted a second? This is

:15:30. > :15:34.getting us nowhere. That is entirely consistent with saying that since

:15:35. > :15:37.the victorious side, the Brexiteers, did not spell out to the British

:15:38. > :15:41.public what Brexit means, and we still don't know what it means, we

:15:42. > :15:45.still have absolutely no notion if they want to pay contributions or

:15:46. > :15:48.not, if they want to be part of foreign policy arrangements or

:15:49. > :15:53.not... Why didn't you say that at the time? That was the 27th of

:15:54. > :15:57.April, one clip from the wider debate. We, as the Liberal

:15:58. > :16:00.Democrats, are quite logically saying, since the victors in the

:16:01. > :16:03.referendum, yes, they have a mandate to pull out of the European Union,

:16:04. > :16:07.they did not have a mandate how to do it because they did not spell it

:16:08. > :16:11.out to the British people. It is not a second referendum. It is the first

:16:12. > :16:14.referendum, or it would be the first referendum on the terms of

:16:15. > :16:19.departure. The terms of the new re-engagement with the rest of the

:16:20. > :16:24.union. The position on soft Brexit, that we would remain a member of the

:16:25. > :16:27.single market, right? Which means that we would accept free movement

:16:28. > :16:34.of people, that goes with membership? It is a bit more

:16:35. > :16:38.complicated than that, as you know. My own view is that there is plenty

:16:39. > :16:41.of scope, if this Government was intelligent about it, to say to

:16:42. > :16:45.other European member states, look, it is now time to grant to Britain,

:16:46. > :16:52.in return for continued membership of the single market, the least

:16:53. > :17:02.economically destructive form of Brexit, granted to Britain a Europe

:17:03. > :17:07.wide migration frees. We could get that? The government EU doesn't

:17:08. > :17:12.appear to be trying. At the moment, membership of the single market

:17:13. > :17:18.means free movement. Norway, for instance... Norway has free

:17:19. > :17:22.movement, it is even in Schengen. They have a legal ability to

:17:23. > :17:27.constrain free movement. Which they haven't done. But it is their

:17:28. > :17:30.choice, it is an entitlement. We would remain subject to the

:17:31. > :17:37.jurisdiction of the European Court? Here is the issue with the single

:17:38. > :17:40.market, I hear constantly, politicians and commentators, saying

:17:41. > :17:44.it is just a day with tariffs. The most important thing, as identified

:17:45. > :17:50.by Margaret Thatcher, is the body of rules. And that would be the

:17:51. > :17:57.European Court? Well, if you really want to get into a... It follows the

:17:58. > :18:03.case law. They have more discretion. They have never gone against ECJ

:18:04. > :18:08.law? It would have to be the European Court? Whether you have a

:18:09. > :18:12.direct Amaq one ruling, or another body, call is Mary all Paul eyecare,

:18:13. > :18:21.if you want to trade into a single market of rules... Call it maryjane,

:18:22. > :18:26.for all I care. You would abide by those rules. If we were to trade

:18:27. > :18:32.inside the single market, we would do so anyway. You would stay in the

:18:33. > :18:40.customs union? I would. I want to add up what this means. We remain

:18:41. > :18:44.single market membership, we continue with EU contributions, free

:18:45. > :18:48.movement of people, said the jurisdiction of the European Court,

:18:49. > :18:52.we remain in a customs union, so we can't do most of our own trade

:18:53. > :19:00.deals. You know what that is called? Membership of the EU. Know it is

:19:01. > :19:05.not. There are a number of countries in the EEA, which do make financial

:19:06. > :19:09.contributions. They have the ability for people to come in and out of the

:19:10. > :19:14.European Union. Of course, I accept, for the hardest, hardline

:19:15. > :19:20.Brexiteers... But this has always been the dilemma as a country. What

:19:21. > :19:23.is right for the prosperity of future generations is not

:19:24. > :19:26.politically convenient for the Conservative Party, what is

:19:27. > :19:29.politically convenient to them is economically self harming. What my

:19:30. > :19:34.party chooses is the least economically self harming future for

:19:35. > :19:39.our children. Given that you say you accept the result, when you add up

:19:40. > :19:45.everything that you want to happen, it is clear that you don't. You want

:19:46. > :19:50.an arrangement of soft Brexit, very little different from the status

:19:51. > :19:53.quo. You want a second referendum that would incentivise Europeans to

:19:54. > :19:58.give such a bad deal that we would vote against it, and you would

:19:59. > :20:02.encourage that? To somehow claim that the status Norway and other EEA

:20:03. > :20:06.countries have is equivalent to membership is nonsense. They have a

:20:07. > :20:12.common agricultural policy which is their own. You described Norway as

:20:13. > :20:15.powerless and voiceless. But that is not my problem, that is the problem

:20:16. > :20:19.of the Brexiteers promising, as you know, to have their cake and eat it.

:20:20. > :20:27.They have won. I am now in opposition. With victory should come

:20:28. > :20:32.clarity, responsibility and a duty to the country not to your own

:20:33. > :20:38.party. These are the ones that are hoisted by their own petard. They

:20:39. > :20:42.will claim they have an economic utopia by pulling out all the

:20:43. > :20:45.largest single market, a single market we created under Margaret

:20:46. > :20:50.Thatcher. It is not my problem that they cannot regard the Leeds resolve

:20:51. > :20:52.their own dilemma that having access to the British manufactured single

:20:53. > :20:58.market does, in one way or another, have to abide by the rules. That is

:20:59. > :21:01.not my problem, it is theirs. Your party is called the Liberal

:21:02. > :21:08.Democrats. Many people watching this will think maybe it is time for a

:21:09. > :21:12.rebrand? Just drop the Democrat bit. I don't know what you are driving

:21:13. > :21:19.at? You seem to want to fly in the face of the Democratic vote. We are

:21:20. > :21:28.saying there are choices in how we leave. Yes, some compromises, but it

:21:29. > :21:31.safeguards the safety, the clean environment, the jobs and prosperity

:21:32. > :21:35.of our children and grandchildren. If it comes to the point that

:21:36. > :21:40.anybody who suggests we put our country before the narrow lanes of

:21:41. > :21:42.Brexiteers is shouted down, we have come to a very sorry place. Thank

:21:43. > :21:44.you for joining us. Ukip's new leader, Paul Nuttall,

:21:45. > :21:47.says his party can gain at least ten And he hopes to do it at the expense

:21:48. > :21:52.of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party, which he says doesn't represent

:21:53. > :21:54.working people anymore. Some Labour MPs, particularly those

:21:55. > :21:56.in working-class Northern seats, Ellie Price has been

:21:57. > :22:03.to Barnsley to investigate. I want to replace the Labour Party

:22:04. > :22:06.and make Ukip the patriotic Ukip says it will take the fight

:22:07. > :22:15.to Labour in its very heartland, places like the north of England,

:22:16. > :22:17.places like here in Barnsley, where 70% of people voted

:22:18. > :22:20.for Brexit and where, in the last general election,

:22:21. > :22:22.Ukip came a strong second in two It is surely in the back

:22:23. > :22:37.of Dan Jarvis's mind. He has been the Labour

:22:38. > :22:40.MP here since 2011. Do you worry that they're going

:22:41. > :22:43.to vote Ukip at the next election? We should not be complacent

:22:44. > :22:46.about the fact that a resurgent Ukip could provide a significant

:22:47. > :22:49.challenge for us and we have to make The big issue here is immigration,

:22:50. > :22:54.in a town that he says He is worried Labour doesn't

:22:55. > :22:59.currently have the answers. We are not getting it

:23:00. > :23:04.quite right just yet, because we haven't demonstrated

:23:05. > :23:06.to the public that we I don't think we were able to do

:23:07. > :23:10.that in the previous parliament, and I think there is still

:23:11. > :23:13.a specific concern that people look at us and think we don't take it

:23:14. > :23:17.as seriously as they take it, because we can't ever afford to go

:23:18. > :23:19.into a general election with the public thinking we don't

:23:20. > :23:22.take the issue of Diane Abbott doesn't seem

:23:23. > :23:25.to think there should be I think if you're trying

:23:26. > :23:29.to achieve anything, it's useful to have a target,

:23:30. > :23:31.because it's quite a useful waymarker as to whether you

:23:32. > :23:33.are making progress. So, my own view is that there should

:23:34. > :23:37.be some sort of target. I think it's a bit early to say

:23:38. > :23:39.precisely what that should be, But my instinct is,

:23:40. > :23:46.if you want to demonstrate to the public that you take this

:23:47. > :23:49.very seriously, the notion that you should have some sort

:23:50. > :23:51.of target is the right one. But the plan is to park tanks

:23:52. > :23:56.on the lawns of places like this. Fresh from coming second in Ukip's

:23:57. > :23:58.recent leadership contest, she is now the chair of the party's

:23:59. > :24:01.Policy Committee. That's why we invited her to get

:24:02. > :24:03.a taste of what people A party that sticks

:24:04. > :24:13.for the working class people. I think they are standing

:24:14. > :24:15.for the beliefs of the people in the north of England more

:24:16. > :24:18.than the south of England. Her impromptu canvassing

:24:19. > :24:21.session here went well. But the challenge for

:24:22. > :24:23.the new leader, Paul Nuttall, will be to break the voting habits

:24:24. > :24:28.of generations of Labour supporters. With Paul Nuttall as our new leader,

:24:29. > :24:32.we have a real opportunity here. A Bootle man, Liverpool,

:24:33. > :24:35.working-class accent, a guy who has grown up in the North

:24:36. > :24:38.of England and can talk to people in a different way

:24:39. > :24:43.than perhaps Nigel Farage did. If Nigel Farage couldn't do it

:24:44. > :24:48.why would Paul Nuttall, who just happens to have a northern

:24:49. > :24:51.accent, make any difference? I think with Nigel standing down

:24:52. > :24:59.as leader, I think also there will be more people

:25:00. > :25:02.in the front line of Ukip. I think, perhaps rightly,

:25:03. > :25:04.we have sometimes been criticised I think that is going to change very

:25:05. > :25:10.swiftly and very dramatically. Will you have a target

:25:11. > :25:15.list here in the North? I think we will be looking to target

:25:16. > :25:22.in particular those seats where there is a Labour member

:25:23. > :25:25.of Parliament who does not want to leave the European Union,

:25:26. > :25:27.but his constituents, or her constituents,

:25:28. > :25:29.want to get out. They have got to be our top

:25:30. > :25:32.priorities, particularly if we are looking at constituencies

:25:33. > :25:35.where we ran Labour a close second Ukip came second to Labour in 44

:25:36. > :25:39.constituencies in last That was before people in most

:25:40. > :25:42.of those areas voted this With that in mind, Paul Nuttall

:25:43. > :25:49.predicts his party will have There is no floor

:25:50. > :25:53.under the Labour vote. The connection between these voters

:25:54. > :25:55.and the Labour Party The party, for so long,

:25:56. > :26:00.has dismissed their concerns and not That prediction is,

:26:01. > :26:03.I think, realistic. I think that is probably a central

:26:04. > :26:06.case, but it could be much worse. Even if it is lower,

:26:07. > :26:09.it is still probably going to be a disaster for Labour,

:26:10. > :26:12.because a big chunk of working class That means the seat will go Tory,

:26:13. > :26:17.because the Tory vote stays solid, If voters here have felt

:26:18. > :26:20.forgotten by Westminster, they may want to be careful

:26:21. > :26:22.what they wish for. Places like this will become

:26:23. > :26:25.a battle ground for two parties that I'm joined now by the Shadow Home

:26:26. > :26:37.Secretary, Diane Abbott. Welcome back to the programme. We

:26:38. > :26:42.had the new immigration statistics out this week. Let's look at the

:26:43. > :26:49.numbers on the screen. The numbers have never been higher. 650,000

:26:50. > :26:55.people came here, migrants, in the year, to June. Take away those that

:26:56. > :27:01.are leaving, it comes to a net figure of 330 5000. That level of

:27:02. > :27:04.immigration, too high, too low or about right? Any politician who

:27:05. > :27:16.thinks you can set targets for immigration has got a fool for an

:27:17. > :27:22.economic adviser. What the Labour Party is talking about is trying to

:27:23. > :27:28.bear down on the reasons immigrants come here. Without setting a target,

:27:29. > :27:33.is it too high or about right? Targets don't set a difference. I'm

:27:34. > :27:37.not asking you to set a target, I'm asking if that is about right or

:27:38. > :27:43.not? It reflects underlying economic conditions and we would like to

:27:44. > :27:47.adjust those. It reflects the underlying economic situation. We

:27:48. > :27:51.have to deal with that. Do you want to reduce immigration numbers? You

:27:52. > :27:58.can bear down on immigration. There are two main reasons why immigrants

:27:59. > :28:04.come here. The main one is to work. That is partly about the skills gap

:28:05. > :28:12.in the UK, partly about the fact that predatory employers use

:28:13. > :28:19.immigration to undercut British workers, black and white. How many

:28:20. > :28:22.immigrants are subject to predatory employers? How many are waiting for

:28:23. > :28:25.below the minimum wage? We don't know, because the whole point about

:28:26. > :28:29.them working for less than the minimum wage is that it is not

:28:30. > :28:33.properly documented. What we want to do is prosecute employers who pay

:28:34. > :28:38.below the minimum wage. The figures for prosecution or about seven. Many

:28:39. > :28:42.employers have been named and shamed and they have had to pay arrears to

:28:43. > :28:47.the people that were not getting the minimum wage and they have had to

:28:48. > :28:52.pay penalties, about ?3.5 million. It only covers about 10,000 people.

:28:53. > :28:56.We know that the number of illegal migrants here, we have no evidence

:28:57. > :29:00.that there are huge numbers below the minimum wage. Illegal is another

:29:01. > :29:03.matter. But you cannot show to me whether that would make a

:29:04. > :29:07.difference, because you don't know the numbers? Of course we don't know

:29:08. > :29:10.the numbers. As for the people that have been named and shamed, the fact

:29:11. > :29:17.they only cover a small number of people, that just shows how weak the

:29:18. > :29:22.policy is. What we would do is to strengthen the factories

:29:23. > :29:29.Inspectorate, we would ramp up penalties on people who are not...

:29:30. > :29:32.Prosecutions on people. They paid penalties and paid arrears. But you

:29:33. > :29:37.don't know by how much migration would reduce, even if there was full

:29:38. > :29:40.enforcement of the minimum wage. And a lot of these people are not

:29:41. > :29:44.migrants, they are people that were here. It is hard to see how much, if

:29:45. > :29:50.at all, that would reduce immigration numbers?

:29:51. > :29:54.Brexiteers The anxiety in constituencies like Bradford is the

:29:55. > :29:58.sense they are being undercut and losing job because of migrants and

:29:59. > :30:02.we would look to address that. He said at the last election that

:30:03. > :30:06.Labour's manifesto which pledged to bear down on immigration numbers

:30:07. > :30:10.were shameful. Why are you now advocating something you thought

:30:11. > :30:13.were shameful? What I thought was shameful was the immigration

:30:14. > :30:17.controls that did nothing for us and played very badly in some parts of

:30:18. > :30:26.the country. You are talking about your own form of control, to bed

:30:27. > :30:28.down is your phrase, to bed down on numbers means to control it. The

:30:29. > :30:30.current leadership is very clear that we want to stop the

:30:31. > :30:34.undercutting British workers and we want to stop the exploitation of

:30:35. > :30:38.immigrants. What I think is shameful is to play a game with

:30:39. > :30:42.anti-immigrant rhetoric. We have seen across the Atlantic where that

:30:43. > :30:47.leads to pursue. Donald Trump. Staying on the side of the Atlantic,

:30:48. > :30:51.you cannot tell me how many legal migrants are paid less than the

:30:52. > :30:55.minimum wage. He said the party policy was clear but we have had a

:30:56. > :30:57.number of statements from your party about policy. This is Jeremy

:30:58. > :31:23.Corbyn's spokesman... Which one is Labour policy? Our

:31:24. > :31:29.policy is fair rules and reasonable management of migration. Which one

:31:30. > :31:33.of these three is Labour policy? Jeremy Corbyn's spokesperson, we can

:31:34. > :31:37.discount that, Jeremy has never said anything like that. But he has been

:31:38. > :31:46.very clear we must not play politics with migration. We discount Jeremy

:31:47. > :31:49.Corbyn's spokesman? Yes. Emily Thornbury, is that the policy? Our

:31:50. > :31:54.policy is fair rules and reasonable management of migration and that is

:31:55. > :31:57.what she was saying. Clive Lewis, Shadow Business Secretary, proposes

:31:58. > :32:03.migrants should only be allowed to come here if they belong to a trade

:32:04. > :32:07.union is that your policy? He has gone back on that, you cannot insist

:32:08. > :32:12.that people during a union. But we should do everything we can to

:32:13. > :32:16.encourage people to join a union. They would not have to be a member

:32:17. > :32:20.to join? Clive Lewis is no longer saying that. Dan Jarvis, in the

:32:21. > :32:26.film, and other prominent Labour MP, says Labour should have a target to

:32:27. > :32:30.cut immigration can you don't agree? I am a former home Office civil

:32:31. > :32:36.servant and I can tell you targets never work, look at the humiliation

:32:37. > :32:40.of the Tories, immigration is as high as it has ever been. Targets

:32:41. > :32:44.are not the point, the point is to look at the underlying economic

:32:45. > :32:49.issues which bring migrants to our shores. But if you were to do that

:32:50. > :32:54.and do it successfully, what is the scale to cut the numbers? You cannot

:32:55. > :32:58.count illegal migrants and you cannot count employers who pay less

:32:59. > :33:04.than the minimum wage. Let me show you something you said at a fringe

:33:05. > :33:09.event of the Labour conference in Liverpool.

:33:10. > :33:13.It would be wrong to unnecessarily throwaway access to the Single

:33:14. > :33:18.Market in the name of controlling migration through ending single

:33:19. > :33:25.movement. Ending free movement. Because ending free movement has

:33:26. > :33:34.become a synonym for anti immigrant races and the Labour Party... --

:33:35. > :33:41.racism. The Labour Party should never be on the wrong side of that

:33:42. > :33:44.argument. Chuka Umunna, Rachel Greaves, Ed

:33:45. > :33:50.Balls, they have called to an end of free movement of Labour from the EU,

:33:51. > :33:55.they all guilty of anti-immigrant racism? I am aware of what they said

:33:56. > :34:00.and Keir Starmer and I went to Brussels last month and we spoke to

:34:01. > :34:03.a series of spokespeople, both for the Parliament and for the

:34:04. > :34:07.Commission on freedom of movement. And they were very clear that there

:34:08. > :34:12.will be no deal on freedom of movement. I did not ask about a

:34:13. > :34:16.deal, but if you are against free movement as these three Labour

:34:17. > :34:20.colleagues are, prominent colleagues, you have said to take

:34:21. > :34:24.that position is to be guilty of anti-immigrant racism. Is that what

:34:25. > :34:28.they are guilty of? I am not accusing them of that, I am saying

:34:29. > :34:33.they are not facing facts. You cannot have access to the Single

:34:34. > :34:37.Market without freedom of movement. You can have access, just not

:34:38. > :34:44.membership. Membership brings full freedom of movement, access does

:34:45. > :34:47.not. I spoke with Keir Starmer to every major European Commission

:34:48. > :34:52.spokesperson on this and they were clear there is no deal to be done on

:34:53. > :34:57.freedom of movement. And if we negotiated a deal which appeared to

:34:58. > :35:00.involve a condition of freedom of movement, the European Parliament

:35:01. > :35:05.simply would not vote for it. Canada has substantial access to the Single

:35:06. > :35:09.Market, it is not a member, but it has substantial access and there is

:35:10. > :35:13.no freedom of movement for Canada. I am telling you you can have any

:35:14. > :35:17.European spokesperson in the studio and ask them, can we have access

:35:18. > :35:22.without freedom of movement? They will tell you know. Why has Canada

:35:23. > :35:30.got a robust free trade movement agreement with the EU that does not

:35:31. > :35:33.involve freedom of movement? Why could Britain not have that as well?

:35:34. > :35:34.Because our geographical situation across the Channel from the European

:35:35. > :35:36.continent is across the Channel from the European

:35:37. > :35:42.continent is very different from Canada. Whether people like it or

:35:43. > :35:49.not, it is not whether you or against freedom of movement or not,

:35:50. > :35:54.it is like the weather. If the UK of the Channel from continental Europe

:35:55. > :35:58.wants access to the Single Market, there has to be commensurate freedom

:35:59. > :36:02.of movement. Otherwise, the European Parliament will not vote for that

:36:03. > :36:05.deal. You understand the difference between access and membership? I

:36:06. > :36:08.understand we could not have membership without freedom of

:36:09. > :36:12.movement, I am puzzled as to why we could not have some degree of

:36:13. > :36:15.access, it would have to be negotiated, but some degree of

:36:16. > :36:20.access not involving free movement. There are about 30 countries around

:36:21. > :36:24.the world which have substantial access to the EU and not free

:36:25. > :36:29.movement. Europe is saying something different, you need to ask European

:36:30. > :36:33.spokespeople into the studio and ask them why they refuse to accept there

:36:34. > :36:41.can be a deal which involves no freedom of movement. If and when we

:36:42. > :36:51.leave the EU, what would Labour's policy be towards immigration from

:36:52. > :36:54.the EU? If and when we leave the EU, we would want fair rules and

:36:55. > :37:01.reasonable management. What would that mean in practice? For instance,

:37:02. > :37:05.we would prevent employers going to Europe to recruit directly for jobs

:37:06. > :37:10.here without making those jobs open to British people. But we do not

:37:11. > :37:14.know again how much that difference would make? You would have the

:37:15. > :37:18.freedom to have a policy, would you have a policy on immigration? The

:37:19. > :37:25.Labour Party has always had a policy. The EU. We do not have a

:37:26. > :37:30.policy because we do not have one, when free movement comes to an end,

:37:31. > :37:34.on what basis would we allow EU citizens to work here? On the basis

:37:35. > :37:39.of fairness and on the basis of what is good for the economy because that

:37:40. > :37:43.is what has been lost sight of in this debate. Your Shadow Cabinet

:37:44. > :37:47.colleague John Healy said this week Labour just does not understand what

:37:48. > :37:52.matters to many working class communities. Is he wrong? He is

:37:53. > :37:58.wrong if what he's saying is that we have to right on immigration to save

:37:59. > :38:03.seats from Ukip. My belief is if the Labour Party starts saying Ukip is

:38:04. > :38:08.right and immigration is the course of these people's problems, if we

:38:09. > :38:11.start to say that, that gives credence to Ukip. Thank you very

:38:12. > :38:13.much, you made that clear, thank you.

:38:14. > :38:15.It's just gone 11:35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:38:16. > :38:18.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:38:19. > :38:30.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

:38:31. > :38:32.He's balanced his flagship projects to the east

:38:33. > :38:34.and west of the Bann, but the demands continue

:38:35. > :38:39.The Infrastructure Minister, Chris Hazzard, is with us.

:38:40. > :38:41.Plus, the battle over regeneration powers and who should control them

:38:42. > :38:45.has led to some bitter accusations against Stormont.

:38:46. > :38:47.The boss of the organisation which represents all the councils

:38:48. > :38:49.here tells us what it means for local government

:38:50. > :38:54.And giving us their thoughts on those issues - Chris Donnelly

:38:55. > :39:05.It's been a fortnight of varying fortunes

:39:06. > :39:08.for the Infrastructure Minister with legal rulings both holding up

:39:09. > :39:11.plans for the A6 and moving things forward on the A5.

:39:12. > :39:13.There's also the ever-present campaigning for the York Street

:39:14. > :39:16.Interchange to be built, with Belfast city councillors asking

:39:17. > :39:19.if the public-private funding model could be the answer.

:39:20. > :39:26.Chris Hazzard is with us this morning...

:39:27. > :39:31.Let's start with that good news on the A5 -

:39:32. > :39:34.that brings you closer to starting on that next year?

:39:35. > :39:42.There is a statutory process ongoing and we have a public enquiry. I'm

:39:43. > :39:48.not due to get the report until next spring anyway. It has lifted a

:39:49. > :39:53.hurdle, but it would not speed anything up and if we had lost that

:39:54. > :39:57.angle and into a judicial review proceedings, the final destination

:39:58. > :40:00.is unknown. It is a welcome decision, we are over the first

:40:01. > :40:05.hurdle but there is a statutory process that is still ongoing. Do

:40:06. > :40:08.you have a timescale? Can you say to people who are determined that this

:40:09. > :40:12.should be top of the list of priorities when ground is likely to

:40:13. > :40:17.be broken? I would like to be into construction mode this time next

:40:18. > :40:31.year and I want to get that report from the independent

:40:32. > :40:35.inspector. I cannot Expedia that process. It will likely be made next

:40:36. > :40:38.year and I will consider the report and I would like to be in a position

:40:39. > :40:39.next autumn to move into a construction phase for the A5.

:40:40. > :40:42.A tweet from the Dept of Infrastructure in June said

:40:43. > :40:43."Infrastructure Minister Chris Hazzard to complete

:40:44. > :40:46.A5 in this mandate" - but that's not the case, is it?

:40:47. > :40:50.We want to move ahead. We know for the A5 that it is a massive project.

:40:51. > :40:55.This is the Dublin to Donegal route and this will take massive

:40:56. > :41:01.investment both from my -- department and the Southern

:41:02. > :41:05.government. The first stage is from Newbuildings to Strabane, it will be

:41:06. > :41:10.nine or ten miles, it is not a whole thing. I am determined to get as

:41:11. > :41:14.much finance as possible and I am meeting with the Southern Transport

:41:15. > :41:19.Minister in December and talks with the Southern government are ongoing.

:41:20. > :41:23.They had put 400 million on the table for the project but that has

:41:24. > :41:29.reduced to 75 and the Executive will spend money as well. I want to do as

:41:30. > :41:42.much as I can, but a lot will depend on finance. The statutory

:41:43. > :41:46.process as well. This is a road and also the A6 that people have been

:41:47. > :41:50.waiting half a century for. I will do as much as I can to get it

:41:51. > :41:52.completed but if it takes a bit longer, I think people would be

:41:53. > :41:55.happy. They want construction to begin. In this mandate, what you are

:41:56. > :42:03.likely to be able to complete in stage one of the process, not the

:42:04. > :42:07.entire A5. Do you accept that? If you're going to break ground next

:42:08. > :42:12.year, you cant finish the whole thing and do all of that work in

:42:13. > :42:17.three and a half years, it wouldn't be possible! With a fair wind and we

:42:18. > :42:23.can work on all three phases at the same time. There are statutory and

:42:24. > :42:29.legal processes to go through and I cannot circumvent them. Certainly

:42:30. > :42:33.the A5 and A6 remain priorities and I will do as much as I can to move

:42:34. > :42:37.them forward. What about the money from the Republic of Ireland, do you

:42:38. > :42:41.have a figure that you think is reasonable and acceptable and

:42:42. > :42:47.doable? 400 million was originally the figure. It has gone away and

:42:48. > :42:52.they are moving into a period of infrastructure review and I think it

:42:53. > :42:56.is timely. I have met with councils and there is a determination to put

:42:57. > :43:01.more money back on the table and when I meet with Shane Ross I will

:43:02. > :43:06.talk about that. Let's talk about the A6 after the criticism that

:43:07. > :43:10.Danny Kennedy faced over lack of consideration around environmental

:43:11. > :43:15.issues, have your plans now fallen foul of precisely the same

:43:16. > :43:20.difficulty? This is an application for leave. The bar is very low for

:43:21. > :43:26.applying for a leave and I welcome the comments that this is a vital

:43:27. > :43:30.project and we need resolution. My department are confident that we

:43:31. > :43:34.will be successful and we will remain on track for starting

:43:35. > :43:40.construction next March. That is the optimistic version, but you must

:43:41. > :43:45.know that looking at what happened in terms of delays on A5 which went

:43:46. > :43:49.on for years and as you have said has not started yet, if that is

:43:50. > :43:53.replicated where the A6 is concerned, you will be long gone as

:43:54. > :43:59.minister before anything substantial happens. It could happen. I don't

:44:00. > :44:04.want to circumvent the judicial process, I am confident and

:44:05. > :44:09.officials are confident that we have everything in place. We will have

:44:10. > :44:12.our papers lodged quickly and I welcome justice Maguire who rejected

:44:13. > :44:16.five of the six grams, we will have a hearing and I welcome that.

:44:17. > :44:21.Preliminary hearings will continue. This is one section and I hope in

:44:22. > :44:27.the New Year to make an announcement about the Dungiven bypass and

:44:28. > :44:30.joining the road to Derry as well. These are rules that should have

:44:31. > :44:34.been built decades ago. Can I address all of that in the next five

:44:35. > :44:38.years? I will do as much as I can. For a lot of people hearing that

:44:39. > :44:43.Dungiven would go ahead will be good news and they are likely to take the

:44:44. > :44:46.attitude, we will believe it when we see it, because this has been

:44:47. > :44:51.promised for decades and nothing has happened. I understand the

:44:52. > :44:55.frustration, I have been to Derry and heard the frustration, people

:44:56. > :44:59.saying they need investment and they are crying out for investment, we

:45:00. > :45:03.know the unemployment figures in Derry are too high. We know what it

:45:04. > :45:07.means to have good connectivity. That is the task I am setting myself

:45:08. > :45:14.to do. I understand the frustrations and I want to do with them. Has

:45:15. > :45:18.Dungiven jumped up the queue? It is part of the A6 plans. The bypass in

:45:19. > :45:22.Dungiven and towards Derry we are progressing with that in the New

:45:23. > :45:26.Year and I am coming to a stage where I hope to make an

:45:27. > :45:29.announcement. We are going into a budgetary process and I would like

:45:30. > :45:34.to think I would have the money to complete what I want to do with the

:45:35. > :45:39.A6. It will all become clear to the budget. We talked about west of the

:45:40. > :45:44.Bann and we also need to talk about Belfast and the calls being made for

:45:45. > :45:47.you to deal with the York Street Interchange. City councillors have

:45:48. > :45:51.been asking your department to develop a private public funding

:45:52. > :46:03.model, is that on the table? Working in partnership with local government

:46:04. > :46:05.and business in the years ahead is something we will have to look at.

:46:06. > :46:09.We know the dire straits the public finances are in. I am open to look

:46:10. > :46:11.at anything put in front of me. Even if that means tells? If a private

:46:12. > :46:14.firm was involved, the way it would recoup its investment is through

:46:15. > :46:22.that, are you prepared to consider tolling? I want a number of options.

:46:23. > :46:27.Public transport, roads, we know there is investment needed in waste

:46:28. > :46:30.water. I have established an alternative finance group to work

:46:31. > :46:35.with the Department of Finance but it has to work in the public

:46:36. > :46:38.interest. Is it in the public interest for motorist who have to

:46:39. > :46:42.pay to use a road system and if they cannot afford to, to use a

:46:43. > :46:46.second-best system, that is the question you have to deal with? It

:46:47. > :46:50.is something I will continue to look at, tolling has become a feature of

:46:51. > :46:54.many road projects in Europe and most of the western world. It is

:46:55. > :46:59.prevalent in the Republic. Indeed. It has to be used where it works and

:47:00. > :47:07.it has to work in the interest of the public. It is a possibility?

:47:08. > :47:10.Anything is a possibility. I have approximately five or ?6 billion

:47:11. > :47:15.worth of projects sitting with the Department and I can only get one or

:47:16. > :47:19.1.5 billion to do that. Do I leave everything on the shelf or do I look

:47:20. > :47:23.at ways to do it? It has to be in the public interest and does not

:47:24. > :47:26.leave us with massive resource bills for years to come. York Street

:47:27. > :47:30.Interchange and the fact that Belfast councillors want you to look

:47:31. > :47:35.at the high-speed rail link between Belfast and Dublin, are they serious

:47:36. > :47:39.priorities? Absolutely. We need to have a conversation about transport.

:47:40. > :47:49.We talked far too often about moving cars in and out of Belfast and we

:47:50. > :47:51.did not talk often enough about moving people. That is where the

:47:52. > :47:53.great hope is for rail. There are discussions ongoing about linking

:47:54. > :47:55.Belfast, Dublin and Derry with high-speed rail and I want to take

:47:56. > :47:58.that forward. Thank you very much. Let's hear from our commentators

:47:59. > :48:09.today - Felicity Houston What do you make of that? A lot on

:48:10. > :48:13.the table for consideration. I think this comes back to the fact that

:48:14. > :48:16.Sinn Fein decided to take the infrastructure ministry because they

:48:17. > :48:19.saw an opportunity to advance key signature programmes that really

:48:20. > :48:25.allow them to address a delivery deficit which has detrimentally

:48:26. > :48:31.impact on our national as complement -- competence. We see that in the

:48:32. > :48:36.national as turnout which has been declining. They see the A5 and A6 as

:48:37. > :48:41.a massive prize which allows them to say they have delivered on the fresh

:48:42. > :48:45.start plan. Those are the two priority programmes and in the time

:48:46. > :48:48.ahead, he would hopefully be able to show that we are going to move

:48:49. > :48:55.towards construction beginning on both of those which opens up the

:48:56. > :48:59.point is, while that would perhaps benefit people who support Sinn

:49:00. > :49:04.Fein, it does not benefit everyone, it is not just nationalist who would

:49:05. > :49:08.support? Obviously there is a mixed community there and it should be a

:49:09. > :49:12.benefit. Chris said that nationalists have lost faith in the

:49:13. > :49:18.government to deliver but I don't think so. The whole population has.

:49:19. > :49:21.I can think of the Belfast rapid transport programme which has

:49:22. > :49:25.supposedly been planned and I have been living there are 40 years and I

:49:26. > :49:32.remember this plan as a young girl. It still has not happened. Why on

:49:33. > :49:36.earth isn't there a proper roadway to Derry? If any of these things

:49:37. > :49:39.actually get built, people will be astonished and it will be a great

:49:40. > :49:43.achievement if the Minister manages it, but people will not expect it. I

:49:44. > :49:48.will come back to the Minister on that point, can you give any

:49:49. > :49:54.reassurance to Felicity Houston on that rapid transport system

:49:55. > :49:57.Others-macro I will be launching a project in 2018. We have tended the

:49:58. > :50:03.vehicles. I have seen some of the design work. That is only phase one.

:50:04. > :50:08.We need to look at South and North Belfast. We need to realise, that is

:50:09. > :50:11.the type of system that will tackle congestion. We cannot build our way

:50:12. > :50:16.out of the congestion problems. In Europe they have spent billions

:50:17. > :50:19.doing that and they have just built -- Michael built concrete jungles.

:50:20. > :50:22.Thanks to you both for now - we'll talk again soon but now

:50:23. > :50:25.for a look back at the week - one of those weeks dominated

:50:26. > :50:27.by a particular party - in sixty seconds with

:50:28. > :50:44.In the run-up to world AIDS Day, an MLA thanked a charity for

:50:45. > :50:47.enlightening him over HIV. For me that's a turning point, as someone

:50:48. > :50:51.who was ignorant to the fact of this terrible disease that heterosexual

:50:52. > :50:56.people can have it also. Possibly the only time Trevor Clark and Elton

:50:57. > :50:59.John will appear in the same story. A Northern Ireland politician said

:51:00. > :51:04.that he did not know that heterosexual people could get a HIV.

:51:05. > :51:10.Where is like what planet are you living on? Sammy Wilson's claim that

:51:11. > :51:13.other diseases more deserving of public attention got a rare rebuke

:51:14. > :51:16.from a party colleague who wrote reveal that a person close to her

:51:17. > :51:20.has HIV. It would not have been that difficult to wear the red ribbon in

:51:21. > :51:23.support. It would not have been difficult for anyone to do.

:51:24. > :51:26.Complaints that no Northern Ireland stars were on the short list for the

:51:27. > :51:31.BBC sports personality of the year. Just one of the things the First

:51:32. > :51:36.Minister found hard to swallow this week. We no doubt will be eating

:51:37. > :51:41.some fair from China, the things we do for Ulster.

:51:42. > :51:44.Power-grabbing and reneging on a promise are just two

:51:45. > :51:46.of the accusations levelled at the Communities Minister,

:51:47. > :51:48.Paul Givan, after his decision not to hand over regeneration

:51:49. > :51:53.On Thursday Belfast City Council agreed to seek an urgent

:51:54. > :51:58.Councils across Northern Ireland said it's a u-turn and one that

:51:59. > :52:01.will have a signficiant impact on their ability to sustain

:52:02. > :52:06.The chief executive of NILGA, which represents all the councils,

:52:07. > :52:17.is Derek McCallan and he's joins me now... Did you see this coming?

:52:18. > :52:22.We anticipated this, because the Northern Ireland Executive is about

:52:23. > :52:25.as watertight as a tea bag. We were made aware of this and we

:52:26. > :52:29.anticipated rather than reacted to it. We have already sought an

:52:30. > :52:33.engagement and that has been confirmed with the Communities

:52:34. > :52:37.Minister and the communities committee and the reason we are

:52:38. > :52:42.doing that is because we want to make absolutely sure that as your

:52:43. > :52:46.commentators mentioned, there is no democratic or delivery deficit as a

:52:47. > :52:52.consequence of this. Regeneration is one of the absolute foundation

:52:53. > :52:57.pieces of improving competition, economy, devolution, democratic

:52:58. > :53:01.deficits, don't need to happen as a result of this. We don't think they

:53:02. > :53:05.will, but crucial to this will be this programme for government.

:53:06. > :53:09.Nobody is suggesting that regeneration is not going to happen,

:53:10. > :53:15.the question is, how best to deliver it. Do you accept that the Minister,

:53:16. > :53:19.Paul Givan, in his new Department of communities with new

:53:20. > :53:23.responsibilities, is able to present himself as a one stop shop and

:53:24. > :53:26.deliver a better regeneration programme across the whole of

:53:27. > :53:29.Northern Ireland than would have been the case through the 11

:53:30. > :53:34.councils separately and independently? We don't accept that.

:53:35. > :53:39.We will be encouraging evidence to ensure that the councils are the

:53:40. > :53:47.one-stop shop and here is why. There is an economic disadvantage if you

:53:48. > :53:50.are an investor or a citizen in a local area, where there is an

:53:51. > :53:53.inability to have building control, planning, the local economy, area

:53:54. > :53:56.planning, land Assembly, comprehensive development schemes,

:53:57. > :54:03.all of these things have to happen at the local level. Why is better

:54:04. > :54:06.locally? Just ask the citizens in like Metropolitan dynamic areas like

:54:07. > :54:10.Merthyr Tydfil, Cornwall, not just the Glasgow and Manchester 's of

:54:11. > :54:14.this world. There has been a devolution of investment and powers

:54:15. > :54:17.into the hands of local people to develop and sustain local

:54:18. > :54:21.communities in local areas. The 11 community plans of the councils link

:54:22. > :54:27.to this programme will be the litmus test. But the minister says is not

:54:28. > :54:32.all of the councils where as ready as the better prepared councils to

:54:33. > :54:36.actually deliver on regeneration. When there was an uneven picture as

:54:37. > :54:41.far as he is concerned, in terms of delivery, potential, he had to step

:54:42. > :54:47.in and take over, does that not make sense? Do you accept that is the

:54:48. > :54:54.case? Of course. 11 councils were in the same place in terms of the local

:54:55. > :54:57.government act and a submission since 2002, which said that

:54:58. > :55:01.regeneration would be coming to those councils. They were in a state

:55:02. > :55:07.of preparedness. There is a better way of doing it, that is the point

:55:08. > :55:10.of the Minister. There is a policy imperative and a fractal in --

:55:11. > :55:13.practical unheard of for the councils to be in charge of the

:55:14. > :55:17.local economy. They will do that better with local people and with

:55:18. > :55:23.investors. I do want to put words in your mouth, but do you see it as a

:55:24. > :55:25.power grab by Paul Givan? The Northern Ireland Assembly like local

:55:26. > :55:29.government is maturing. They want to see results. That is a good thing.

:55:30. > :55:33.There is an element of this and let's be constructive about this,

:55:34. > :55:37.there is an element of this which is positive and in the statement there

:55:38. > :55:41.was a reference made to the fact that all communities regardless of

:55:42. > :55:44.size, that there would be a coordination of effort around

:55:45. > :55:52.regeneration. We are meeting a Minister on Tuesday and we hope that

:55:53. > :55:55.as seen through because rural communities, this has to be good for

:55:56. > :55:58.them as well. All of Northern Ireland at local level needs

:55:59. > :56:03.regeneration. It is interesting that you mentioned that. Belfast City

:56:04. > :56:07.Council on the one hand looks as though it is seeking to get the

:56:08. > :56:11.powers from the Minister, on the other hand it is currently working

:56:12. > :56:15.on the city growth deal which would give it regeneration powers anyway.

:56:16. > :56:20.Are you concerned that Belfast could pull away in terms of what it can do

:56:21. > :56:27.and the way in which it can do it in future and have an unfair advantage

:56:28. > :56:31.over the other ten councils, is that the possibility? No. Belfast just

:56:32. > :56:37.wants to have the same competitive advantage as the Swansea 's and

:56:38. > :56:39.Cardace of this world. In terms of a sector, local government is

:56:40. > :56:43.unwavering in its commitment to have further investment and powers

:56:44. > :56:47.devolved to it. The fact that there is some work being done by Belfast

:56:48. > :56:50.will not be to the material disadvantage of any other community

:56:51. > :56:59.in Northern Ireland as long as the councils are actually afforded the

:57:00. > :57:01.opportunity to do it and what we are asking for now, in this mandate, is

:57:02. > :57:03.for an all-party group on local governance, development and

:57:04. > :57:07.investment in the future, because if we do not have that, we will not

:57:08. > :57:10.have the highly laudable principles of this programme for government.

:57:11. > :57:14.You will have that distortion that you referred to. The Minister says

:57:15. > :57:18.that if people want regeneration on the ground, whether it is in Belfast

:57:19. > :57:22.or anywhere else across Northern Ireland, they don't care how it is

:57:23. > :57:27.delivered. It is the fact that it is deliberate and it will be delivered

:57:28. > :57:30.that matters to them. This is an argument that matters a lot to you

:57:31. > :57:34.and the councillors that you represent but the vast majority of

:57:35. > :57:39.people don't care, so long as it happens! If it is Paul Givan, great.

:57:40. > :57:43.In one respect it doesn't matter what institution delivers this but

:57:44. > :57:47.in terms of local democracy and local investment and a competitive

:57:48. > :57:51.economy, we need to have a local one-stop shop and the reason I

:57:52. > :57:54.mention that, just by way of illustration, at the moment there

:57:55. > :58:10.are three institutions dealing with regeneration and should be won

:58:11. > :58:14.at the local level, it should be the councils and the reason for that is

:58:15. > :58:17.that the council should not have to wait 16 weeks for an acknowledgement

:58:18. > :58:20.to be able to use street lamps to make a Wi-Fi town. It should be

:58:21. > :58:23.delivered locally and it is in Merthyr Tydfil, it is in Swansea, it

:58:24. > :58:24.is in Glasgow, it is in Cornwall, why do we normalise our local

:58:25. > :58:25.democracy? Interesting question. And let's have a final word

:58:26. > :58:31.with Felicity and Chris... What make of that? Is there a real

:58:32. > :58:34.tussle for control between Stormont and the 11 local councils? I don't

:58:35. > :58:38.think it is between Stormont and the councils, I think it is between the

:58:39. > :58:41.DUP specifically. We saw last year that Mervyn Storey as minister was

:58:42. > :58:45.reluctant to move on the regeneration Bill and it has been

:58:46. > :58:49.confirmed by Paul Givan that they want to hold the power with the

:58:50. > :58:54.ministry at Stormont. I think the issue there is that the DUP want to

:58:55. > :58:58.keep control because if it is seeded out to the council then obviously

:58:59. > :59:00.some of those councils are majority nationalist and some have no

:59:01. > :59:04.outright majority and the DUP would like to keep it centralised because

:59:05. > :59:07.they can have a role in strategically developing it. There

:59:08. > :59:10.could be grounds for friction to develop with Sinn Fein over that

:59:11. > :59:23.because clearly Sinn Fein do not agree. How do you see it? It is one

:59:24. > :59:24.of those things. I thought this was going ahead and suddenly the

:59:25. > :59:26.minister announces the councils aren't getting it. It could strip

:59:27. > :59:29.out unnecessary levels of bureaucracy. That has to be

:59:30. > :59:31.beneficial. If we are going to have local councils that actually do

:59:32. > :59:34.anything, the whole point of the reorganisation was that the councils

:59:35. > :59:37.would actually have roles now, proper and realistic ones and they

:59:38. > :59:41.are taking away this power from them which I hoped might have been

:59:42. > :59:45.successful, because although we are very small country, we are also

:59:46. > :59:50.parochial and everyone knows their own turf. That is the point. We

:59:51. > :59:58.talked about Swansea and Glasgow and Merthyr Tydfil and Northern Ireland

:59:59. > :00:01.are small and a lot of say if you want to compare like with like, you

:00:02. > :00:03.should be comparing Stormont rather than the 11 local councils. It has

:00:04. > :00:06.all the paraphernalia of a real government. This is the problem,

:00:07. > :00:11.Stormont wants to be a real government. Things move at a clay

:00:12. > :00:14.seal speed. There would be a possibility if that were done at

:00:15. > :00:21.local level that things could move on. It is like what we talked about

:00:22. > :00:25.with the roads. There was a disaster in Derry, it was run by two

:00:26. > :00:28.government departments. It feeds into the logic of reorganising our

:00:29. > :00:32.local government from 26 councils down to 11 which was about trying to

:00:33. > :00:36.make them larger, to give them powers were they could be credibly

:00:37. > :00:40.devolved powers so they could deliver on the ground, because they

:00:41. > :00:44.are closer and I think that is the strongest argument in this regard.

:00:45. > :00:48.It is going to be very interesting to see how it plays out because

:00:49. > :00:52.there cannot be two winners. Do you think that Paul Givan will end up in

:00:53. > :00:55.control? I think he is going to at the moment but I think over time it

:00:56. > :00:59.is something that Sinn Fein will want to see and the local councils.

:01:00. > :01:03.That's it for now - but we can't finish the programme

:01:04. > :01:05.without paying tribute to our former colleague, Austin Hunter, who's died

:01:06. > :01:08.suddenly and whom we remember with great affection.

:01:09. > :01:10.Many fitting and well-deserved tributes have been paid to him

:01:11. > :01:13.in the past few hours - and we're thinking about his family,

:01:14. > :01:17.and in particular, his son, Simon, who's part of our team.

:01:18. > :01:35.The Government's Supreme Court appeal against

:01:36. > :01:39.And, are the Lib Dems "back in the game"?

:01:40. > :01:57.The Italians have this constitutional referendum today,

:01:58. > :02:04.Matteo Renzi says if he loses, he will resign and that will spark a

:02:05. > :02:07.political crisis on top of the potential banking crisis, 18% of

:02:08. > :02:13.Italian bank loans on non-performing so they will not be paid back. He

:02:14. > :02:17.needs a 40 billion bailout and for complicated reasons, he cannot do

:02:18. > :02:21.it. By tomorrow morning, Italy could be the European story and not

:02:22. > :02:26.Britain. Britain is an age long forgotten problem in the world. We

:02:27. > :02:30.have had Trump, Italy and also Austria. Italy has long been the

:02:31. > :02:34.forgotten eurozone crisis about happen. It is not banking but also

:02:35. > :02:38.sovereign debt, they have a ridiculous deficit and this is what

:02:39. > :02:42.Mr Renzi is trying to tackle with constitutional reform. I do not

:02:43. > :02:46.think it is a necessary given that just because Renzi loses the

:02:47. > :02:50.referendum which he could do, he is behind in the polls, he will resign.

:02:51. > :03:02.Politicians have a funny way of digging themselves out of holes. He

:03:03. > :03:04.said he would resign and then he said he would not and now he is

:03:05. > :03:07.saying he is again. The Italian President who appoints the Prime

:03:08. > :03:09.Minister might talk him out of it. If it is against, the signal it

:03:10. > :03:13.sends to the markets is that Italy cannot reform itself. And so the

:03:14. > :03:19.chances of ever getting on top of a sovereign debt which is 135% of

:03:20. > :03:24.Italy's GDP, in an economy that has not grown since it joined the euro,

:03:25. > :03:28.that would be a strong signal to the markets. There is an echo of David

:03:29. > :03:35.Cameron's slightly back me or sack me approach to the EU referendum. A

:03:36. > :03:39.loan is 56 words long. Incredible. A bundle of reforms on the original

:03:40. > :03:44.idea of cutting the number of people in the second chamber and increasing

:03:45. > :03:47.the speed of legislation. It has turned into a confidence vote in

:03:48. > :03:51.Renzi. Before they stopped polling and they have two in the run-up to

:03:52. > :03:57.something like this, it looked like the No vote was quite for a head, so

:03:58. > :04:00.the insurgency vote. Given the record of the polls, I guess Renzi

:04:01. > :04:06.should go to bed early because he has won! A poll early today said the

:04:07. > :04:09.public will losing confidence in pollsters, surprise surprise.

:04:10. > :04:15.Another reason it would mean a financial crisis if there is a vote

:04:16. > :04:19.of no is that the Five Star Movement which would put up a candidate at a

:04:20. > :04:24.general election, which there could be, depending on what the President

:04:25. > :04:28.decides to do, the likelihood is the Five Star Movement might win. One of

:04:29. > :04:32.their policy commitments is to hold a referendum about whether Italy

:04:33. > :04:37.remains in the euro. And they will campaign against, so that is no

:04:38. > :04:42.comfort to the markets. Italian polls do not close until ten o'clock

:04:43. > :04:46.our time, 11 o'clock in Italy and we will get exit polls earlier. The

:04:47. > :04:50.South, we think, will be very much a No vote and the North could be

:04:51. > :04:54.different. By the morning, we will have a clear-cut idea. Meanwhile,

:04:55. > :04:57.the Supreme Court he is the appeal from the Government on Article 50

:04:58. > :05:01.and what the role of Parliament should be. It is not look like we

:05:02. > :05:07.will get a decision until January. I would suggest this Supreme Court

:05:08. > :05:11.ruling will be quite historic in that, I get the impression the

:05:12. > :05:18.judges intends to lay down quite clear parameters on what Executive

:05:19. > :05:22.powers are. They are taking it very seriously, instead of a panel of

:05:23. > :05:27.three judges, there is a bank of them. They acknowledge this is big.

:05:28. > :05:31.And it could be a slight anticlimax. There is a majority for this very

:05:32. > :05:35.simple bill, passing Article 50. Labour have said they will try to

:05:36. > :05:39.amend it but they will not block it. You might end up with enormous rage

:05:40. > :05:44.about these unelected judges and they might make their ruling and

:05:45. > :05:48.there is a simply -- there is a simple bill which passes. The

:05:49. > :05:52.interesting thing is the process. It will lay out a historical precedent

:05:53. > :05:55.for years and years to come by the Supreme Court. The Sunday Telegraph

:05:56. > :06:00.this morning said that the Government was ready with a very

:06:01. > :06:05.short Bill saying, this House votes to trigger Article 50. Words to that

:06:06. > :06:08.effect. Can it get away with that? I think it probably can because no MP

:06:09. > :06:13.and no political party really wants to be seen to stand on the way of

:06:14. > :06:17.Brexit quite yet. The Government whips I have spoken to and other

:06:18. > :06:21.opposition party leaders, they all say the fight is on the great repeal

:06:22. > :06:25.Bill and not less. There is one really interesting thing that has

:06:26. > :06:28.happened as a result of this great legal fight which we expect the

:06:29. > :06:33.Supreme Court will hide -- will hold at the High Court verdict. It is

:06:34. > :06:37.already significantly softening the Government's view on Brexit as we

:06:38. > :06:43.discussed earlier. Talking about a grey or a less hard Brexit. You look

:06:44. > :06:47.at what David Davis said in the House of Commons on Thursday about

:06:48. > :06:52.painting the budget contributions, still keeping some element of

:06:53. > :06:56.freedom of movement. There is a really important thing, if you want

:06:57. > :06:59.to get something through the House of Commons to trigger Article 50,

:07:00. > :07:04.you have to have the numbers with you and there is not a majority for

:07:05. > :07:08.a hard Brexit. You do wonder in a way wider government, unless it

:07:09. > :07:12.wants some kind of authoritative, historic statement one way or

:07:13. > :07:18.another on this, why if it has got the votes as they are saying, it did

:07:19. > :07:24.not just go and trigger Article 50. After it lost in the lower court. I

:07:25. > :07:28.think it is concerned about a bill to trigger Article 50 being amended

:07:29. > :07:34.and the process being frustrated by the opponents of Brexit. There is a

:07:35. > :07:39.risk the Supreme Court will refer the decision to the European Court

:07:40. > :07:45.of Justice. Earlier this week, the most senior British member of the

:07:46. > :07:49.ECJ, said it had ultimate authority when it came to Article 50 and the

:07:50. > :07:54.Supreme Court may take that view as well and refer it. From the point of

:07:55. > :08:00.view of Brexit, nothing could be better than Britain and its

:08:01. > :08:05.powerlessness expose and we have to see permission from a European court

:08:06. > :08:09.to leave the European Union and if Theresa May wanted to trigger a

:08:10. > :08:12.second general election before the ECJ has ruled, that would be the

:08:13. > :08:17.second referendum that Nick Clegg and others have been wishing for and

:08:18. > :08:21.I think the Brexiteers would win that hands down. We shall see,

:08:22. > :08:26.interesting development if that does go to the macro 3. Earlier, we

:08:27. > :08:32.listened to Diane Abbott on immigration -- Diane Abbott. There

:08:33. > :08:36.was a bit on Diane Jarvis we did not put in about Mr Jarvis and his

:08:37. > :08:39.reaction to Diane as Shadow Home Secretary, let's listen to that.

:08:40. > :08:42.She is the Shadow Home Secretary, so this whole issue of immigration,

:08:43. > :08:44.she is the mouthpiece for Labour, is she robust enough?

:08:45. > :08:47.Well, all of us in the Labour Party who believe this

:08:48. > :08:49.is an important issue - which I hope would be

:08:50. > :08:51.pretty much everybody - have an absolute responsibility

:08:52. > :08:53.to discuss this in a very grown-up way.

:08:54. > :08:57.But I cannot lose sight of the fact that in my constituency

:08:58. > :08:59.and around the country, and I've spoken to thousands

:09:00. > :09:02.of people about it, immigration is a very important issue.

:09:03. > :09:11.I think the proof of the pudding always will be in the eating.

:09:12. > :09:19.Dan Jarvis, we thought you would like to see that! Did we learn

:09:20. > :09:23.something about Labour's immigration policy this morning? Definitely, it

:09:24. > :09:26.is no secret Labour backbenchers are unhappy with the leadership on an

:09:27. > :09:30.enormous range of issues. What is more interesting is the view of

:09:31. > :09:34.Diane Abbott that Labour should defend the principle of immigration,

:09:35. > :09:39.not the view of Kai Di sky blue is an John McDonnell, the other close

:09:40. > :09:43.advisers of Jeremy Corbyn. There is a split within the people around

:09:44. > :09:48.Jeremy Corbyn and so absolutely we did learn something. We learned

:09:49. > :09:52.about the split? We're not miracle workers, we did not learn about the

:09:53. > :09:56.policy! It is close to Christmas, I can as for a present! The fact that

:09:57. > :10:00.there is a split on the Labour frontbench is probably not news so I

:10:01. > :10:05.argued there was nothing we learned at all! What was amazing about that

:10:06. > :10:10.Diane Abbott interview, she was able to contradict or dismiss or offend

:10:11. > :10:15.five different members of the Labour front bench. I counted John Healy,

:10:16. > :10:19.Keir Starmer, Clive Lewis, Emily Thornberry and Jeremy Corbyn's

:10:20. > :10:24.spokesman. That is extraordinary and that also will not make news because

:10:25. > :10:29.we think that is now normal. It will not make column inches of the great

:10:30. > :10:33.volcano on the front bench. Brief but before we finish on the Liberal

:10:34. > :10:37.Democrats? The danger of the Richmond Park by-election victory

:10:38. > :10:41.for Labour and the resurgence of the Liberal Democrats is that they now

:10:42. > :10:46.become the official opposition and they will move into that space which

:10:47. > :10:50.Labour has essentially vacated by being leaderless. I have got the

:10:51. > :10:56.Labour calendar, I got you a present for 2017. Great photographs of Keir

:10:57. > :11:03.Hardie and the founding of the health service. Thomas Attlee.

:11:04. > :11:06.Homosexuality being legalised and decriminalised in 1967. Funnily

:11:07. > :11:11.enough, no picture of Tony Blair, the man that won more elections for

:11:12. > :11:18.Labour. Just a little thing and made the first which was the year that

:11:19. > :11:26.Tony Blair won an election. Liberal Democrats, you can see it, on this

:11:27. > :11:31.day under Tony Blair, Labour win a landslide general election. 20th

:11:32. > :11:35.anniversary. Sarah Olney is the new MP for Richmond. I interviewed her

:11:36. > :11:40.in the middle of the night. Just after she had won, and she gave an

:11:41. > :11:43.interview to LBC and we thought you would like to see a clip of that.

:11:44. > :11:45.They voted for a departure, but not a destination.

:11:46. > :11:47.You know, there was no clear manifesto for what happened to,

:11:48. > :11:50.you know, our membership of the Single Market, or what...

:11:51. > :11:53.The Remain campaign said we were going to leave

:11:54. > :12:00.Every single leading member of the Remain campaign said a vote

:12:01. > :12:03.to leave the EU was a vote to leave the Single Market.

:12:04. > :12:09.I'm really sorry, but Sarah has to leave now.

:12:10. > :12:14.Sarah, if you want to be an elected Member of Parliament,

:12:15. > :12:17.I think you should probably be able to answer some simple

:12:18. > :12:20.Can you get Sarah back on the line, please?

:12:21. > :12:30.There you go, always helpful to have a PR man! At least Nick Clegg did

:12:31. > :12:35.not do that today. No, he took his punches and heat threw some back.

:12:36. > :12:39.Yes, he stood his ground well. Lib Dems, is this significant or not?

:12:40. > :12:44.There are not many seats like Richmond were 72% voted to remain.

:12:45. > :12:48.But there are many were Labour could be squeezed, it is a tactical

:12:49. > :12:52.anti-Tory vote and the best place for that is Lib Dems. For tips on

:12:53. > :12:56.strategy, the Lib Dems potentially think they have 40% is now flocking

:12:57. > :13:00.to them who voted Remain and it does not add up in constituency seats,

:13:01. > :13:04.especially in the south-west where they lost their seats. It is a

:13:05. > :13:08.Brexit area and they will not win them back there. It gives the Lib

:13:09. > :13:12.Dems something distinctive to say. Completely, they have a big yellow

:13:13. > :13:16.flag right in the middle of British politics and they have not had that

:13:17. > :13:24.for seven, eight years. We will leave it there, thank you.

:13:25. > :13:26.We will have more politics throughout the week.

:13:27. > :13:29.That's all for today, I'll be back at the same time next weekend.

:13:30. > :14:01.Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:14:02. > :14:04.'Sometimes all that's needed is a helping hand...'