:01:11. > :01:12.The fallout from that U-turn on closing care homes. We hear from the
:01:12. > :01:22.Ulster Unionist leader, Mike Nesbitt.
:01:22. > :01:22.
:01:22. > :38:27.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 2224 seconds
:38:27. > :38:37.And on the rise of UKIP, the party's Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics
:38:37. > :38:39.in Northern Ireland. The problem was the process, not the policy, so said
:38:39. > :38:43.the Health Minister Edwin Poots as he called a halt to the closure of
:38:43. > :38:50.care homes. We will hear from the cold -- politician who called for
:38:50. > :38:54.his resignation and economist with a wider impact on that decision. Nigel
:38:54. > :39:01.Farage lead UKIP to major gains in England's elections.
:39:01. > :39:05.The parties only MLA will hope for some company on the dangers. Sheila
:39:05. > :39:10.Davidson and Steven McCaffery join me also.
:39:10. > :39:14.First came the announcement one by one that health trusts here revealed
:39:14. > :39:16.plans to close their homes. Then came the backlash is elderly
:39:16. > :39:21.residents and their families revealed the extent of their
:39:21. > :39:23.distress. Finally the Health Minister who had apologised for that
:39:23. > :39:33.distress and branded the handling of the decision disastrous took drastic
:39:33. > :39:39.action. We are discontinuing the current consultation process. It
:39:39. > :39:43.will be organised shortly. We will do everything we can to deal with
:39:43. > :39:49.the elderly care. The current process and consultation that is
:39:49. > :39:54.taking process will no longer continue. What does that mean for
:39:54. > :40:00.the public, what happens now? The implementation of the policy has
:40:00. > :40:04.changed. I have said from the outset I was not happy with this. It has
:40:04. > :40:08.caused stress to elderly people and the last thing we want to do is
:40:08. > :40:10.cause distress to them. We must provide better quality care for
:40:10. > :40:15.elderly people and that is what we will continue to engage in. Edwin
:40:15. > :40:18.Poots speaking to our health correspondent Mike Louise Connolly
:40:18. > :40:23.on Friday. Mike Nesbitt and the economist John
:40:23. > :40:26.Simpson join me. On one point on Friday, before you give that
:40:26. > :40:31.interview, you called for the Minister 's resignation.
:40:31. > :40:34.Did you think he should go? There are two issues, one with the policy
:40:34. > :40:38.and the other with the implementation of it. Although he
:40:38. > :40:43.says he has fixed that, I do not think he has gone far enough. No
:40:43. > :40:47.current resident has been given a guaranteed that they will not be
:40:47. > :40:52.forced out of their home. Given the unnecessary distress it has caused,
:40:52. > :40:55.that is believed he owes those people and families. The bigger
:40:55. > :41:00.issue is the policy which has now been corrupted by this episode.
:41:00. > :41:04.People are looking at transforming care and wondering is this about
:41:04. > :41:12.delivering better health service or about saving money? He has, I am
:41:12. > :41:17.afraid, corrupted the system, he must go. He said it has never been
:41:17. > :41:23.about saving money. But the public no wonder what it has been about, it
:41:23. > :41:28.has been a shambolic episode. a commissioner who said it was
:41:28. > :41:34.shameful and this was due to a abject la leadership. Older people
:41:34. > :41:37.are looking for politicians and people like Edwin Poots to see how
:41:37. > :41:44.much store they are putting in the opinion of the champion. I be going
:41:44. > :41:47.to listen to him? That is the big question. He says he has listened to
:41:47. > :41:55.what residents and their families have said and that no resident will
:41:55. > :41:59.be forced out of their home. Mark, this is about devolution, which we
:41:59. > :42:07.were told would be better than direct ruled government. Can you
:42:07. > :42:10.imagine how the DUP would react if a direct rule minister had flown in
:42:10. > :42:15.and presided over the last two weeks, reducing a 92-year-old woman
:42:15. > :42:21.into tears on television because she feared she would be turfed out of
:42:21. > :42:25.her home? He went back and spoke to that women and reassured her.
:42:25. > :42:32.not good enough. There is no guarantee that in the future she
:42:32. > :42:35.will not be forced out. We need a guarantee. John Simpson. I've been
:42:35. > :42:42.in a different direction to make in this argument. I think what we have
:42:42. > :42:46.seen in the last week... He is correct to say it has been a
:42:46. > :42:50.distortion of transformation of care. There are issues we must be
:42:50. > :42:56.and we're not because of this. This is a very small part. Given what has
:42:56. > :43:02.happened, there has been a certain failure of communication. Do I blame
:43:02. > :43:06.the media, the press or do I blame the officials involved? For example,
:43:06. > :43:11.the different boards came up with proposals that were reported to say
:43:11. > :43:16.that they would close all of the residential care homes, . Full is
:43:16. > :43:21.the that was never going to be true. There are always going to have to be
:43:21. > :43:27.consulted. There was going to have the ministers permission and that
:43:27. > :43:32.was never going to happen. Legally, the minister was still in charge and
:43:32. > :43:37.he was being badly served by reporting that he would not be able
:43:37. > :43:43.to fill his promise. He did not look like he was in charge. That is
:43:43. > :43:46.slightly unfair. When he was asked he contributed to the discussion.
:43:46. > :43:51.You and I may have used more forceful language, but he did
:43:51. > :43:58.ultimately see that no one would be forced out against their will. John,
:43:58. > :44:01.he told me on Thursday night that he did not know the trust were going to
:44:01. > :44:06.announce 100% closures at that point in time. The trusts were not
:44:06. > :44:11.announcing a decision for 100% closures. They were announcing a
:44:11. > :44:17.recommendation that would go to the Minister. Surely we should still
:44:17. > :44:21.have discussed it with him beforehand? Just one minute.Are the
:44:21. > :44:25.trusts just guess men or people who can't think for themselves? At the
:44:25. > :44:29.trusts came up with recommendations which were not what the minister at
:44:29. > :44:32.originally thought, and there is a question that they read the
:44:32. > :44:35.instruction book, as they read the instruction book, is taken up with
:44:35. > :44:38.different recommendations, thank goodness the trusts have the ability
:44:38. > :44:45.to think independently and the Minister then has the ability to say
:44:45. > :44:52.stop. Mike, you do not agree? No, not at all. The Minister should have
:44:52. > :45:01.looked at that and outline the sensitive parts and said not to do
:45:01. > :45:05.anything without his seasonal. buck stops with him. In the
:45:05. > :45:15.Southeast one care home says they will maintain at least one care home
:45:15. > :45:17.
:45:17. > :45:21.in the area. That is part of the communications problem. It is very
:45:21. > :45:26.easy to fix the communication problem. Two words from the
:45:26. > :45:31.Minister, "I quit." He has been given advice from his trusts and he
:45:31. > :45:37.has said that this device is unacceptable. He has said that they
:45:37. > :45:45.have not read the instructions properly. He's had said that more
:45:45. > :45:48.than 50%... Of course, it was never meant to include 100%. The Minister
:45:48. > :45:53.has a rightful complaint to the general philosophy of the trusts. He
:45:53. > :46:03.should say to them to put him in his place that they were just
:46:03. > :46:04.
:46:04. > :46:10.recommending and not deciding. Poots has had �75 million on
:46:10. > :46:14.monitoring grounds. Health should not benefit from monitoring rates.
:46:14. > :46:20.Waiting lists have grown since he took over. Thousands of people
:46:20. > :46:27.having to read more than 12 hours since last March. The target of 95%
:46:27. > :46:33.under four hours was not met. These were pressures that your colleague
:46:33. > :46:43.Michael McGimpsey faced when he was the Health Minister. Mr Poots has
:46:43. > :46:45.
:46:45. > :46:49.failed to deliver. How would the DUP have reacted if a direct rule
:46:49. > :46:54.minister at the edge is gaining the-year-old woman into tears? The
:46:54. > :46:59.personal pain of a 90-year-old is obviously, that, but hard cases do
:46:59. > :47:03.not make good law. The fact is there is a general consensus that we are
:47:03. > :47:08.going to change the emphasis from residential care too other times. Is
:47:08. > :47:15.that the correct policy in your view? I believe that is a good
:47:15. > :47:22.policy provided the alternatives are in place. The trans from your clear
:47:22. > :47:28.policies will be discussed over the next 12 months. What is happening is
:47:28. > :47:32.a big report on how to deal with the major issues get swallowed up
:47:32. > :47:35.because of one bad decision. It is one issue that has been handled
:47:35. > :47:39.badly but I do not want to blame the Minister, I want to blame those
:47:39. > :47:45.responsible for the communications system. I want to give the Minister
:47:45. > :47:48.credit because he has tried to put an end to this. Use the buck stops
:47:48. > :47:53.with the Minister and have called for his resignation. The one way to
:47:53. > :47:57.guarantee in politics that someone will not go is they sometimes call
:47:57. > :48:02.for his resignation. Because you have done this and he has had a
:48:02. > :48:07.tough time, Peter Robinson may well throw his arms around him and make
:48:07. > :48:13.sure he stays. He does not want you to set the agenda. That sends out a
:48:13. > :48:21.message that suggests that the opinion of the Commissioner has no
:48:21. > :48:27.value whatsoever. We must take account of the proposed shift. The
:48:27. > :48:33.Commissioner rejected this shift? She will say that there is room for
:48:33. > :48:36.improvement here. I believe that she will say that.
:48:36. > :48:43.Let us hear from our two commentators today. PR consultant
:48:43. > :48:46.Sheila Davidson and Steven McCaffery from The Detail. Sheila,
:48:46. > :48:51.Communications is the business you are involved in. Our previous guests
:48:51. > :48:55.sat said whatever the issues they disagree with, they agree that the
:48:55. > :49:02.communications has been poor in this instance. Do you agree? That is
:49:02. > :49:09.absolutely correct. In the fall of the public sector there is a
:49:09. > :49:12.perception that any investment in communications is a waste of money,
:49:12. > :49:14.it is spin doctoring, it is trying to bite people astray. When in
:49:14. > :49:17.actual fact, if you get your communications right, at the very
:49:17. > :49:20.point where you are making decisions and talking to people, it is not
:49:20. > :49:27.about what is going into the media, it is about how you are
:49:27. > :49:31.communicating decisions for the people who are affected. It is not
:49:31. > :49:36.about that. It is about the communication of the Trust to the
:49:36. > :49:40.people in its care. They got that horrifically wrong. They did not
:49:40. > :49:44.even begin to factor in what the level of communication was. Let us
:49:44. > :49:48.take this down to its lowest common denominator. The person who sat in
:49:48. > :49:53.front of the Commissioner and said you will have to find somewhere else
:49:53. > :49:59.to go. Where was the communications thought process that went down at
:49:59. > :50:03.that level? We are debating better policies, we are debating everything
:50:03. > :50:07.except the thing that actually went wrong here. At the end of the day,
:50:07. > :50:10.perhaps the thing we should be talking about for a population the
:50:10. > :50:16.size that we have, we have all of these trust boards, I health and
:50:16. > :50:20.social care board, the department, and the level of opportunity there
:50:20. > :50:25.is for all of that communication to go wrong is terrific. We are talking
:50:25. > :50:32.about saving money? Maybe we should be looking at taking up this chain
:50:32. > :50:35.of command and delivery and charting its to a point where what we are
:50:35. > :50:37.delivering to ordinary people are something we want and we need and
:50:37. > :50:42.the accountability line is very clear. Stephen, is it about
:50:42. > :50:45.communications, policy or the implementation of the policy?
:50:45. > :50:51.know from what the minister said on Friday it is not about policy.
:50:51. > :50:55.has just pulled responsibility for that into his office. The other big
:50:55. > :51:01.issue that spins off from this and it was back to what they had been
:51:01. > :51:05.talking about in terms of the work of the government, Mr McGuinness is
:51:05. > :51:11.preparing to present Northern Ireland on a bigger stage. I hope
:51:11. > :51:14.that these decisions will show the executive and a good light and that
:51:14. > :51:17.they are quietly working away in the background to and mental welfare
:51:17. > :51:21.reform, Ruislip policies that will affect huge numbers of people, much
:51:21. > :51:25.more than the affected by the care home issues will stop this had --
:51:25. > :51:33.this has muddied the water and the angry finger-pointing to words
:51:33. > :51:38.Stormont. Is this made life more difficult for the executive and
:51:38. > :51:44.you're part of the executive, your party? I was at a rally last night
:51:44. > :51:48.to stop the DUP are not popular in that area. Stephen Cazlake to
:51:48. > :51:52.identify welfare reform. We were told by the Minister that if we did
:51:52. > :51:57.not get this done and dusted by the end of March the sky would fall in
:51:57. > :52:03.and the social funding would collapse. Here we are in the still
:52:03. > :52:06.waiting for the Minister to bring it to the House for a debate. The
:52:06. > :52:10.fundamental problem is that he has cut and pasted the legislation of
:52:10. > :52:20.Westminster. They will idea of devolution is that you reshape it to
:52:20. > :52:21.
:52:21. > :52:26.sit this part of the kingdom. were to discuss the measure Minister
:52:26. > :52:30.is made of the A5, we would expect that the DUP would be angry with you
:52:30. > :52:35.and your party this morning? That was an executive decision, not a
:52:36. > :52:39.ministerial one. The serious issue here is about legal hearings of the
:52:39. > :52:44.executive. I go back to the point that the communications that went
:52:44. > :52:49.wrong here have had a much wider rippling out effect. We do not
:52:49. > :52:55.appreciate yet how great that effect will be. That is an issue that did
:52:55. > :52:59.not need to go the way it went. The instructions made it clear to reduce
:52:59. > :53:03.within five years by 50%. That is a policy that is not in dispute. When
:53:03. > :53:07.you notice that over the week that actual policy is not what people are
:53:07. > :53:11.trying to throw it, we are talking about the speed when we should not
:53:11. > :53:15.have been down that road at all. Does this kind of political crisis
:53:15. > :53:22.which seems to be all absorbing, will switch people onto politics or
:53:22. > :53:28.turn them off? It encourages the kind of policies that we saw
:53:28. > :53:32.recently when, I think we may not was Peggy Dewey, people do not care
:53:32. > :53:38.whether I am laughing or crying. Here more of those kind of comments
:53:38. > :53:43.at times like this and that is what is profiting UKIP across the water.
:53:44. > :53:53.Thank you for joining us. It has been a week dominated by that care
:53:53. > :53:56.homes controversy. There is Mark Devenport 's the in 60 Seconds.
:53:57. > :54:02.The disaster speak for Edwin Poots is elderly people had back at
:54:02. > :54:09.planned home closures. Over the past few days I have been horrified at
:54:09. > :54:14.how it has translated. The Secretary of State promises economic gain at
:54:14. > :54:19.Stormont delivers a shared future. They are thinking and ambitious ways
:54:19. > :54:24.about how to bridge long-standing secretarial issues and I welcome the
:54:24. > :54:30.issues and policies they are introducing. There is still plenty
:54:30. > :54:35.of division when it comes to legislation on same-sex marriage.
:54:35. > :54:40.It is not an issue of equality but redefining marriage.
:54:40. > :54:47.Who is responsible for removing flies, the police said, "not us."
:54:47. > :54:57.Gerald Kelly said it was not acceptable. Was this a fraudulent --
:54:57. > :54:59.
:54:59. > :55:03.was this a shut from Martin McGuinness?
:55:03. > :55:09.Mark Devenport reporting. David Cameron once things are said,
:55:09. > :55:11."fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists". But if the results of the
:55:11. > :55:17.local elections in England are anything to go bike might
:55:17. > :55:22.reconsidering that view. UKIP polled strongly shown it can cause upsets
:55:22. > :55:28.in Tory and Lib Dem heartlands. David McNarry is with me. Thank you
:55:28. > :55:34.for joining me. Is this a staging post on the road to the aligning
:55:34. > :55:41.British policies or just a blip? I do not think it is a blip. I have
:55:41. > :55:45.just arrived on the scene. Mike Nesbitt who was sitting in the seat
:55:45. > :55:51.was trying to accommodate and lead to my expulsion from the Ulster
:55:51. > :55:56.Unionists party. It put me on a journey as to where I was going to
:55:56. > :56:06.go. I must say, I seem to have made a good choice. The reason for that
:56:06. > :56:08.
:56:08. > :56:12.is that I detect that it is the same in Northern Ireland. They are fed up
:56:12. > :56:20.like the other people in the UK. They are fed up with an inefficient
:56:20. > :56:26.government and we have reached an extent that the blip is eradicated.
:56:26. > :56:32.This is quite a since Asian woman by UKIP, 25% of the overall vote. The
:56:32. > :56:41.difficulty is going to be in getting Westminster seats. In between that
:56:41. > :56:44.they have the European election. If people get accustomed to voting one
:56:44. > :56:53.way and they have shown that and we will show it in Europe, they will
:56:53. > :56:57.continue that way. I do not think the blip as a matter of fact. I do a
:56:57. > :57:01.one trick pony? That is what a lot of the leaders have been seeing in
:57:01. > :57:08.the papers. They say that people voted for UKIP on one issue only and
:57:08. > :57:12.that was immigration. From my point of view, I am not a one trick pony
:57:12. > :57:18.and not interested in one trick pony politics. UKIP have been accused of
:57:18. > :57:26.being sectarian and racist when neither play no part in any thing
:57:26. > :57:29.that we do. What we are developing now... Very interestingly, it is
:57:29. > :57:35.about the connection and I think that is an important word in
:57:35. > :57:39.politics today. It is the connection with UKIP and the public. Even over
:57:39. > :57:46.another issue which is pretty interesting and Northern Ireland
:57:46. > :57:50.Terence. I am making waves and always have in my support for
:57:50. > :58:00.grammar schools. It is a big interest. That might be an issue in
:58:00. > :58:01.
:58:01. > :58:06.Northern Ireland. You do not believe UKIP voted for -- you do not believe
:58:06. > :58:09.people voted for UKIP on that issue alone? No, but you cannot take away
:58:09. > :58:17.that UKIP penetrated the Conservatives. They have also
:58:17. > :58:21.penetrated the Lib Dems and push them into fourth place again. They
:58:21. > :58:26.came seventh in a by-election. UKIP are also drawing support from Labour
:58:26. > :58:30.supporters. They are tapping into people who are fed up with the
:58:30. > :58:33.delivery of government, just as people, and you heard it in your
:58:33. > :58:37.earlier debate, just as people here are fed up with the delivery of
:58:37. > :58:44.government. The executive we have in Northern Ireland is lamentable and
:58:44. > :58:48.his performance. What about this realigning of British politics.
:58:48. > :58:51.as long as I can remember people have talked about a 2-party state
:58:51. > :58:55.becoming a three or four party state. It has never really happened.
:58:55. > :59:00.I know the coalition government has slightly changed it. But there is no
:59:00. > :59:05.real evidence that this electoral result is fundamentally going to
:59:05. > :59:12.change the landscape. I think you are correct. At this stage you could
:59:12. > :59:15.not make that claim. Some within UKIP are making that claim. Your
:59:15. > :59:21.point about the coalition government is extremely interesting. It looks
:59:21. > :59:24.like we are going to have another form of coalition. It could be a
:59:24. > :59:28.voluntary as opposed to a mandatory coalition that we are forced to
:59:28. > :59:33.have. You only really have Nick Clegg turning around and seeing that
:59:34. > :59:38.he might go into power and equality with Ed Miliband. You have the
:59:38. > :59:43.lamentable David Cameron said after the abuse that he gave to UKIP
:59:43. > :59:50.people and voters then seeing that we must treat them with respect.
:59:50. > :00:00.That is a result! Yes. But no one believes the Prime Minister any
:00:00. > :00:03.
:00:03. > :00:07.more. You are neither a fruitcake, nor a loony or a closet racist?
:00:07. > :00:10.not at the! I have had a great run in the last few days visiting
:00:10. > :00:16.different parts of Northern Ireland. Thank you for Johnny, David. Sheila
:00:16. > :00:20.and Stephen are still with me. I use a prize at this UKIP success?
:00:20. > :00:23.No, I am not surprised and it should not be taken that seriously in terms
:00:23. > :00:28.of the effect on Labour and the Tories.
:00:28. > :00:33.I think that it has a bigger effect on the Lib Dems and that UKIP
:00:33. > :00:38.appeared to be filling their protest gap. I do not think it is a big fear
:00:38. > :00:42.for the Labour or Conservative Party. Time will tell. At the moment
:00:42. > :00:46.it seems to be a manifestation of frustration with conventional
:00:46. > :00:49.politics and the same things that people see between political parties
:00:49. > :00:55.and that kind of frustration that people feel regarding delivery by
:00:55. > :01:04.politicians. We have had is uprising week in politics. AQAP portal crisis
:01:04. > :01:11.in Northern Ireland and this big UKIP surprise. Hasn't had a big
:01:11. > :01:15.impact on the political debate? think what has been really good