:00:38. > :00:44.Just over a fortnight to go, and the referendum debate is getting
:00:45. > :00:46.serious, with Boris Johnson and John Major the latest senior
:00:47. > :00:51.We'll be discussing all the week's big developments,
:00:52. > :00:59.We've hit the road with both campaigns, and we've got two big
:01:00. > :01:04.I'll be joined by Labour's John Prescott,
:01:05. > :01:08.And, if you haven't decided how to vote yet,
:01:09. > :01:17.One MP who's only now finally reached a decision will reveal live
:01:18. > :01:19.And coming up here - As the Assembly prepares
:01:20. > :01:22.for its first full week of business, I'll be talking to Mike Nesbitt
:01:23. > :01:24.about opposition and his relationship with his SDLP
:01:25. > :01:36.And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times
:01:37. > :01:39.more likely to trust the word of a random stranger
:01:40. > :01:44.And, in a week in which one poll showed the public are three times
:01:45. > :01:46.I'm joined by a political panel with the full authority
:01:47. > :01:49.It's Sam Coates, Isabel Oakeshott, and Janan Ganesh.
:01:50. > :01:51.We'll try and find some random strangers to replace
:01:52. > :01:56.them next week, and see if you notice the difference!
:01:57. > :02:00.So, in case you weren't sure just how high the stakes were in this
:02:01. > :02:02.referendum campaign, you only have to look at this
:02:03. > :02:04.morning's papers, and listen to former Prime Minister John Major
:02:05. > :02:07.taking aim at his fellow Tories in the Leave campaign.
:02:08. > :02:09.The current Prime Minister David Cameron tried to get his party
:02:10. > :02:12.to avoid so-called blue-on-blue attacks, in the hope of keeping
:02:13. > :02:17.It seems like John Major didn't get the message,
:02:18. > :02:19.as he accused the Leave campaign of squalid deceit,
:02:20. > :02:23.and called Boris Johnson a court jester.
:02:24. > :02:28.Here he is, talking to Andrew Marr earlier.
:02:29. > :02:32.This is going to affect people, their livelihoods, their future,
:02:33. > :02:36.for a very long time to come, and if they are given honest,
:02:37. > :02:37.straightforward facts and they decide to leave,
:02:38. > :02:40.then that is the decision the British people take.
:02:41. > :02:45.But if they decide to leave on the basis of inaccurate
:02:46. > :02:47.information, inaccurate information known to be inaccurate,
:02:48. > :02:55.Now, I may be wrong, but that is how I see their campaign.
:02:56. > :02:59.And this is so important, for once, I'm not prepared to give the benefit
:03:00. > :03:04.of the doubt to other people, I'm going to say
:03:05. > :03:07.And I think this is a deceitful campaign, and in terms
:03:08. > :03:10.of what they are saying about immigration, a really
:03:11. > :03:15.They are misleading people to an extraordinary extent.
:03:16. > :03:18.So, that was former Prime Minister John Major, but,
:03:19. > :03:21.when Boris Johnson took to the same sofa, he studiously declined
:03:22. > :03:25.to return fire when asked if those words were part of an attempt
:03:26. > :03:28.by the Remain campaign to "take him out".
:03:29. > :03:30.Whether it is or not, this morning I think that...
:03:31. > :03:32.I'm rather with John McDonnell this morning...
:03:33. > :03:38.He says that there's too much of this sort of blue-on-blue action,
:03:39. > :03:40.and what he wants to hear is the arguments,
:03:41. > :03:56.Boris failing to take the bait. As I said, John major hadn't got the
:03:57. > :04:00.memo from down the street, that was a joke.
:04:01. > :04:05.The fact was John Major was sent into the show by Downing Street to
:04:06. > :04:08.beat up on Boris. Is that an example, a testament to have rattled
:04:09. > :04:12.they are? My own evidence is they are very
:04:13. > :04:24.rattled, they got extremely twitchy about something I tweeted on Friday
:04:25. > :04:30.night where I suggested a prominent Remain person was appearing on sky.
:04:31. > :04:36.This shows the level of nerves in Downing Street. The kind of language
:04:37. > :04:39.being exchanged between senior figures in the party raises very
:04:40. > :04:42.serious questions about how the party comes together.
:04:43. > :04:48.We had Michael Gove this morning saying he thinks the party can come
:04:49. > :04:53.together on June the 24th. Of course they can, but I doubt it will be on
:04:54. > :04:58.June the 24th. It is quite remarkable for a
:04:59. > :05:02.Conservative Downing Street to get a former Conservative prime ministers
:05:03. > :05:07.to come onto the BBC, the main Sunday morning news show, Andrew
:05:08. > :05:10.Maher, and to beat up on the man who is currently favourite to be the
:05:11. > :05:17.Tory leader. That is almost unprecedented.
:05:18. > :05:21.John Major put his credibility on the line with phrases like squalid,
:05:22. > :05:27.depressing. He was going for Boris Johnson.
:05:28. > :05:31.There is a clear, strategic imperative behind what John Major
:05:32. > :05:34.was saying, he is trying to reduce Boris Johnson's credibility,
:05:35. > :05:39.currently the most popular and trusted figure in the EU debate.
:05:40. > :05:43.They are worried and trying to harm that.
:05:44. > :05:47.So, they are going for the man. The Big Questions this morning for
:05:48. > :05:52.Downing Street, and it is right to point fingers at Downing Street for
:05:53. > :05:57.pushing this kind of intervention, stiffening John Major's spines when
:05:58. > :05:59.it turned out Boris was going to be on the programme I think he had a
:06:00. > :06:07.bubble. That is my understanding. The danger
:06:08. > :06:14.is that Downing Street are encouraging this, to send this
:06:15. > :06:18.debate into a Tory blue-on-blue battle.
:06:19. > :06:20.The effect may well be to deter Labour voters.
:06:21. > :06:27.The people who want Britain to stay inside you need to do two things, to
:06:28. > :06:33.make sure Tory voters vote for Remain, and turn out the Remain vote
:06:34. > :06:36.against Labour and SNB voters. The question is whether having all
:06:37. > :06:44.the headlines dominated by this blue-on-blue fight -- SNP.
:06:45. > :06:49.It means people shrug and give up. It is more than just blue-on-blue.
:06:50. > :06:55.From what John Major said this morning, it seems Downing Street is
:06:56. > :06:59.prepared to trash the Tory brand, their own brand, in desperation to
:07:00. > :07:05.win on June the 23rd. John Major describing one of the
:07:06. > :07:08.likely people to be the ex-Tory leader -- next Tory leader as a
:07:09. > :07:12.court jester. Saying, if you put Michael Gove,
:07:13. > :07:17.Boris Johnson comic Iain Duncan Smith in charge of the NHS, is like
:07:18. > :07:22.giving your pet hamster to a buy them. A second Tory poster. How can
:07:23. > :07:28.you not conclude they are so desperate about June the 23rd they
:07:29. > :07:34.are prepared to trash their own party's brand.
:07:35. > :07:39.Short of using the B word when he thought the Microsoft when talking
:07:40. > :07:42.to Michael Brunson, it was very vociferous.
:07:43. > :07:45.It is true Boris Johnson did not retaliate in the interview. John
:07:46. > :07:51.Major and number ten would argue that retaliation was made very
:07:52. > :07:54.early, over the past few weeks, the Prime Minister's integrity on some
:07:55. > :08:00.questions had been brought into doubt by people in his own party.
:08:01. > :08:03.Without defending number ten's instructions to John Major if they
:08:04. > :08:09.exist, they feel aggrieved because of attacks during the campaign.
:08:10. > :08:13.Looking at the footage of John Major, I detect sincere emotion on
:08:14. > :08:17.his part, rather than being a mouthpiece.
:08:18. > :08:23.I did argue that he didn't mean what he said.
:08:24. > :08:25.As Sam was saying, he didn't want to come on.
:08:26. > :08:27.This is such an important development, it tells us about the
:08:28. > :08:31.remain camped. Now, staying with the EU referendum,
:08:32. > :08:34.today we're going to try Two well-informed campaigners,
:08:35. > :08:38.the Conservative MEP Dan Hannan and the Labour MP Emma Reynolds,
:08:39. > :08:43.will be interrogating each other I'll mostly just be sitting
:08:44. > :08:47.back to watch. A short while ago in our green room,
:08:48. > :08:50.they tossed a coin to see Emma is the winner, or loser,
:08:51. > :08:58.depending on your point of view, so they'll be the first
:08:59. > :09:02.to be cross-examined. They took a break in campaigning
:09:03. > :09:04.to make their pitch I'm Daniel Hannan, Conservative
:09:05. > :09:13.Member of the European Parliament, and I'm inviting you to fire me
:09:14. > :09:16.on the 23rd of June. First, because leaving
:09:17. > :09:20.is the modern choice. The European Union
:09:21. > :09:22.is a relic of the 1950s, when regional blocs
:09:23. > :09:27.looked like the future, but that world has been overtaken
:09:28. > :09:30.by technological change. Second, because it's
:09:31. > :09:36.the cheaper choice. Instead of handing Brussels
:09:37. > :09:38.?20 billion a year gross, 10 billion net, we'll have our money
:09:39. > :09:45.to spend on our priorities. We will take back the sublime right
:09:46. > :09:59.to hire and fire our own lawmakers. In a necessarily uncertain world,
:10:00. > :10:03.we will have taken back control to mitigate any risks ourselves
:10:04. > :10:06.instead of passing power to people who may not
:10:07. > :10:09.have our interests at heart. And fifth, because it's
:10:10. > :10:13.the confident choice. We are a merchant,
:10:14. > :10:16.maritime, global nation, the fifth largest economy
:10:17. > :10:21.on the planet, one of five permanent seat-holders
:10:22. > :10:24.on the UN Security Council. We have the world's most
:10:25. > :10:26.widely studied language, before we are able to run our own
:10:27. > :10:34.affairs in our own interests? Trading and cooperating with friends
:10:35. > :10:36.and allies on every continent, including Europe,
:10:37. > :10:42.but living under our own laws. So, here are Dan Hannan
:10:43. > :10:45.and Emma Reynolds. And, just to explain the rules,
:10:46. > :10:47.you've just five You can only ask questions,
:10:48. > :11:00.or only give answers. Nine out of ten economists and a
:11:01. > :11:05.string of organisations say leaving the EU would damage the economy,
:11:06. > :11:09.make families worse off, cause a recession, could you name an
:11:10. > :11:12.independent economic force -- economic forecaster who has said the
:11:13. > :11:15.opposite? Five former chancellors are
:11:16. > :11:21.campaigning to leave, plenty of economists, ...
:11:22. > :11:27.Gerard Lyons has said, although in favour of leaving, if we were to
:11:28. > :11:31.vote to leave, the two years, it would cause great uncertainty and
:11:32. > :11:34.depress the economy. He hasn't said that. He said that in
:11:35. > :11:40.a report. He hasn't. You will have to do
:11:41. > :11:45.better than that. He is strongly of the view leaving means walking away
:11:46. > :11:50.from a declining trade bloc and being able to leap up... And the
:11:51. > :11:58.uncertainty? All these international bodies...
:11:59. > :12:03.Hang on. The IMF, these are people who shared the outlook,
:12:04. > :12:09.international bureaucrats, they share the lifestyle, the tax-free
:12:10. > :12:19.lifestyle, they shared the basic outlook. Through euros, because that
:12:20. > :12:22.is the kind of circles they live in. The Institute for Fiscal Studies is
:12:23. > :12:28.widely respected, they have said by leaving we could blow a black hole
:12:29. > :12:32.of up to ?40 billion in our public finances, meaning less money for
:12:33. > :12:38.public services. They were feeding in the same basic
:12:39. > :12:41.data they got from these IMF, OECD organisations.
:12:42. > :12:44.They are independent. If I didn't think we would be better off as a
:12:45. > :12:51.whole, I would not be inviting viewers to make me redundant. The
:12:52. > :12:55.reason I am confident I will have a job in the private sector doing
:12:56. > :12:59.something more productive than regulating everyone else is we
:13:00. > :13:05.shouldn't be linked to the world is Oates only collapsing trade bloc.
:13:06. > :13:11.There are huge opportunity -- the world's. We are the only one that
:13:12. > :13:18.hasn't grown. Another question, you have described
:13:19. > :13:21.the NHS as the biggest 60 year mistake, why can the public trust
:13:22. > :13:27.the Leave campaign when they don't want the NHS to be in public hands?
:13:28. > :13:31.I said the mistake was having a nationalised system rather than a
:13:32. > :13:34.pluralist one as they have in almost every other industrialised country.
:13:35. > :13:39.The referendum is an instruction to the Government to get us out.
:13:40. > :13:44.It does not mean you are electing the boat Leave campaign, but giving
:13:45. > :13:51.a mandate to get us out on terms and in a timescale said to our allies
:13:52. > :13:56.across the control -- the channel but in our interests.
:13:57. > :14:02.We are really looking at a decision to leave and asking people not to
:14:03. > :14:05.trust any other politician but the British electorate.
:14:06. > :14:08.The weight of economic evidence is on the remain camped, you would
:14:09. > :14:12.admit that at least. Can you name a country that has
:14:13. > :14:17.access to the single market but does not accept free movement?
:14:18. > :14:23.The EU side free trade agreements with Colombia...
:14:24. > :14:27.You said access to the single market, every country in Europe has
:14:28. > :14:32.access to the single market. There is a free trade area from
:14:33. > :14:38.non-EU Iceland... Why therefore does Ireland and
:14:39. > :14:42.Norway faced agricultural tariffs of over 13%?
:14:43. > :14:47.Ireland and Norway? Icelands and Norway.
:14:48. > :14:52.Yes, they have wisely chosen to stay out of the Common Agricultural
:14:53. > :14:58.Policy. Their farmers are strongly in favour of staying out of the CIP.
:14:59. > :15:02.If we did the same thing, instead of being doubly penalised as a net food
:15:03. > :15:06.importer with efficient farms, paying more in, getting less out, we
:15:07. > :15:13.can have a British farming policy tailored to suit our needs.
:15:14. > :15:18.In Northern Ireland, you suggested the border would remain open between
:15:19. > :15:22.the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. How can you therefore
:15:23. > :15:24.guarantee that if you want to stop free movement, that European
:15:25. > :15:30.migrants would not come through that border? You are leaving the back
:15:31. > :15:35.door open. Illegal migrants could come through that border today but
:15:36. > :15:40.do not. They could come through legally. We have an agreement which
:15:41. > :15:44.includes the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, which are not in
:15:45. > :15:49.the, it long predates the EU. The point is it is possible now, don't
:15:50. > :15:54.take anyone's word for it, we have a common travel area with EU and
:15:55. > :15:59.non-EU states, no-one in Dublin or Westminster is suggesting that is a
:16:00. > :16:02.problem. We have only three seconds to go, tough and time in the
:16:03. > :16:07.interests of fairness! It is the dunnock Emma to be cross-examined,
:16:08. > :16:13.let's look at her pitch to undecided voters.
:16:14. > :16:15.We are stronger, safer and better off in Europe.
:16:16. > :16:17.Families benefit from lower prices, more jobs,
:16:18. > :16:20.Businesses benefit from a European single market
:16:21. > :16:26.Workers benefit from employment protection.
:16:27. > :16:29.We trade more with the EU than any other country.
:16:30. > :16:33.from companies like Jaguar Land Rover here in the West Midlands.
:16:34. > :16:36.And by staying in the EU, we will attract even more investment
:16:37. > :16:40.and create more jobs for the next generation.
:16:41. > :16:42.In the 21st century, the challenges that our country face
:16:43. > :16:44.no longer stop at the White Cliffs of Dover.
:16:45. > :16:46.Cross-border crime and terrorism, climate change -
:16:47. > :16:47.by working with our European partners,
:16:48. > :16:54.we can meet these challenges successfully.
:16:55. > :16:59.predicts that damage will be done to our economy if we leave.
:17:00. > :17:02.And the Bank of England Governor, Mark Carney,
:17:03. > :17:14.It would create a black hole in our public finances,
:17:15. > :17:19.meaning less money for our public services, like schools and the NHS.
:17:20. > :17:30.for more jobs, prosperity and security.
:17:31. > :17:31.As before, Dan, you now have five minutes
:17:32. > :17:36.to put your questions. Off you go.
:17:37. > :17:43.Thank you. As you know, the EU is not a settled dispensation, it is
:17:44. > :17:47.undergoing the Euro crisis, the Schengen crisis, migration problems,
:17:48. > :17:54.and it is evolving - what are the greatest risks of Remain? Well, you
:17:55. > :17:58.would keep your job! You seem to want to lose your job. I don't think
:17:59. > :18:02.that there are great risks of as remaining, because we have the best
:18:03. > :18:06.of both worlds. We are not in the eurozone, we have the pound as our
:18:07. > :18:11.currency, like eight other member states retain their currency, but we
:18:12. > :18:15.have unfettered access to the single market, and no other country... What
:18:16. > :18:19.can you tell us about budget contributions in ten or 15 years'
:18:20. > :18:29.time? I know what our budget contributions are today, not what is
:18:30. > :18:32.on the side of your bus. How many migrants might be resettled here?
:18:33. > :18:35.More came from outside of the EU than inside. Can you tell us how
:18:36. > :18:40.many bailouts we might be dragged into? Zero. So if we vote to stay
:18:41. > :18:45.in, even though we had a written guarantee in 2014 that which would
:18:46. > :18:57.not be dragged into a bailout, you trust them this time? You say that
:18:58. > :19:03.but you are a MEP. I am asking the questions. I think the ministers go
:19:04. > :19:09.to the Council of Ministers meetings, 97% of the votes won, we
:19:10. > :19:13.are not run by Eurocrats. You cannot answer any of the questions about
:19:14. > :19:18.how it might look if we stay in, so there are risks both ways. Is it
:19:19. > :19:22.safer to take back control to mitigate risks ourselves, or save a
:19:23. > :19:27.passing control to people who may not have our interests at heart? I
:19:28. > :19:31.do not know why you mistrust our European partners to such a great
:19:32. > :19:34.extent, because the challenges we face in the 21st century, climate
:19:35. > :19:39.change, cross-border crime, terrorism, those are challenges we
:19:40. > :19:43.share with our partners. Let me ask another question, in our country we
:19:44. > :19:46.have an example of a very high-minded, radical tradition that
:19:47. > :19:52.has been very good at dispersing power from oligarchs to the general
:19:53. > :19:56.population. As an heiress to the suffragettes and the chartists, do
:19:57. > :19:58.you feel comfortable backing an elitist, anti-democratic project
:19:59. > :20:02.where supreme power is wielded by people immune to the ballot box,
:20:03. > :20:06.where we pay more to wealthy French farmers than poor African farmers,
:20:07. > :20:10.and where we have inflicted joblessness and misery on tens of
:20:11. > :20:13.millions of people around the Mediterranean while Eurocrats like
:20:14. > :20:18.around in private jets? Does that seem comfortable as a person on the
:20:19. > :20:22.centre-left? I feel comfortable because I feel the EU has been a
:20:23. > :20:26.force for good in terms of employment protection, in a way a
:20:27. > :20:30.Conservative governments never has, comfortable because we elect our
:20:31. > :20:34.MEPs, and we elect a government that sends ministers to Brussels to have
:20:35. > :20:37.the final say on European regulations, and I feel comfortable
:20:38. > :20:42.as a British MP that over the vast majority of policy areas, whether
:20:43. > :20:47.health, housing, education, policing, we have confidence in
:20:48. > :20:51.those areas. So Lord Rose, the leader of the remainder campaign
:20:52. > :20:55.says Vote Leave for higher wages, Paddy Ashdown says we will get
:20:56. > :21:00.cheaper food, don't you think there are benefits to the majority of low
:21:01. > :21:05.and medium income people from having that boosting household income? On
:21:06. > :21:09.the contrary. So they are wrong? I think they are wrong, people in my
:21:10. > :21:17.constituency, low and middle incomes, they will suffer the most
:21:18. > :21:21.if manufacturing is eliminated, according to the Brexit Economist,
:21:22. > :21:24.the Bank of England governor has predicted a recession, and it will
:21:25. > :21:30.be people I reserve present who will be worse after macro, not people
:21:31. > :21:36.earning high income jobs. -- worse off. What is the strongest argument
:21:37. > :21:41.for voting Leave? I don't think there is one. None at all? This is
:21:42. > :21:46.one of the things that puzzles a lot of people trying to make up their
:21:47. > :21:51.mind. You do not think there are any benefits of staying in the EU. It is
:21:52. > :21:54.not my job to tell you them, but I can see them! People make an issue
:21:55. > :21:59.out of being so broad-minded and reasonable, but they struggle to see
:22:00. > :22:03.the other point of view at all. They cannot put themselves in the shoes
:22:04. > :22:06.of the people that the EU is not benefiting, which is the vast
:22:07. > :22:10.majority. There is a lot of scaremongering on your side about
:22:11. > :22:14.what might happen, because if we stay in, we will pretty much have
:22:15. > :22:19.the status quo, access to a market where we trade more than with the
:22:20. > :22:26.rest of the world, 44% of our exports go to the rest of the EU.
:22:27. > :22:30.Our trade unions represent four million people who think we should
:22:31. > :22:34.stay. I would rather this on to them than you. Do you think the European
:22:35. > :22:39.Union is a growing, successful scheme that people would join today
:22:40. > :22:44.if we were not already a member? Yes no? Yes. We ended there, I thank you
:22:45. > :22:46.both for that. So, this week both sides of this
:22:47. > :22:49.referendum have really The big set-piece TV
:22:50. > :22:52.grillings have begun. Senior Conservatives have been
:22:53. > :22:55.knocking lumps out of each other. And the Labour machine seems finally
:22:56. > :22:57.to have creaked into life. We'll be talking about
:22:58. > :22:59.all of that today. But, first, our Adam's been
:23:00. > :23:01.on the buses to see where this
:23:02. > :23:03.campaign is heading. There's livestock,
:23:04. > :23:05.there's Boris Johnson, and there's a man
:23:06. > :23:09.with a stuffed animal. Well, I suppose I could have
:23:10. > :23:12.accidentally bought the cow This was the week the referendum
:23:13. > :23:21.started to feel a bit more like a general election
:23:22. > :23:23.campaign, and not just because of
:23:24. > :23:25.the photo op. Vote Leave unveiled
:23:26. > :23:27.a spending commitment, cutting the VAT on domestic fuel,
:23:28. > :23:30.and a whole new immigration system - And here Boris told farmers
:23:31. > :23:36.that their subsidies would be safe, even if the UK left the EU -
:23:37. > :23:39.not everyone was convinced. There's no authority, no power,
:23:40. > :23:47.he's just a person that's walked in here
:23:48. > :23:49.and said what he's got to say. You could say it, I could
:23:50. > :23:53.say it, I can promise. First of all,
:23:54. > :23:58.where are your wellies? Are you getting a bit
:23:59. > :24:03.of grief from the farmers? No, there's a lot of
:24:04. > :24:05.support, a lot of support, and a lot of people
:24:06. > :24:08.coming up to me and saying, "We are with you,
:24:09. > :24:11.we want to come out." Some people, obviously, need
:24:12. > :24:15.reassurance about the subsidies, He left - without offering me
:24:16. > :24:21.a lift, so I caught the train, to Birmingham,
:24:22. > :24:23.and the Labour in campaign. But this week Jeremy Corbyn
:24:24. > :24:30.made a big speech after it emerged many Labour supporters didn't know
:24:31. > :24:34.the party was in favour of the EU. Do you think that was
:24:35. > :24:37.a great speech from JC? Jeremy's journey, if you like,
:24:38. > :24:43.which mirrors the journeys that many have made on this,
:24:44. > :24:49.he was a Eurosceptic in '75, and I think he's more powerful
:24:50. > :24:54.for that. Our journey took us to a building
:24:55. > :24:57.site to see investment from abroad that the Remain campaign claim
:24:58. > :25:01.is linked to our EU membership. Of course, with foreign
:25:02. > :25:04.money comes foreigners. How are you going to vote?
:25:05. > :25:08.No, come out. Why's that? Because of all the immigrants
:25:09. > :25:12.and things like that. Too many of them now
:25:13. > :25:15.coming into this country. Well, inevitably,
:25:16. > :25:18.I've ended up in one of these This week, the Remain campaign
:25:19. > :25:22.got some high visibility backing from foreign leaders -
:25:23. > :25:24.in Spain, the Netherlands, the former Foreign Secretary
:25:25. > :25:32.David Miliband. Some people might say
:25:33. > :25:35.that you live in America now, you are one of these high-profile
:25:36. > :25:38.foreigners coming over and lecturing us on what to do,
:25:39. > :25:41.what do you say to that? I'm a British voter,
:25:42. > :25:44.and I'm able to speak with passion about my own country,
:25:45. > :25:46.this is my home country, and although it's not where I live
:25:47. > :25:49.and work at the moment, I still feel that there is
:25:50. > :25:52.a real obligation to speak not just to the economic issues
:25:53. > :25:54.and the security issues, but also the foreign-policy
:25:55. > :25:56.issues, frankly. to ride on Britain Stronger
:25:57. > :25:59.in Europe's luxury coach, or hop onto Nigel Farage's
:26:00. > :26:02.double-decker. You wait ages for a referendum
:26:03. > :26:06.battle bus to come along, So, you heard Alan Johnson there
:26:07. > :26:12.defending Jeremy Corbyn's latest intervention in the referendum
:26:13. > :26:14.campaign, despite critics claiming that Labour hasn't exactly been
:26:15. > :26:17.full-throated in its campaign Well, the former Deputy Prime
:26:18. > :26:23.Minister and veteran Labour campaigner John Prescott
:26:24. > :26:26.seems to agree. He says in his newspaper column
:26:27. > :26:28.today that his party's message
:26:29. > :26:42.hasn't been getting through. John Prescott, good morning to you.
:26:43. > :26:46.Good morning. You say in your column that the Conservatives have hijacked
:26:47. > :26:51.the campaign, why has Labour allowed that to happen? It is a good point,
:26:52. > :26:56.I suggested in the paper that it seems almost to have been the
:26:57. > :27:00.strategy, blue on blue destroying the Tory party, hopefully, we will
:27:01. > :27:03.have to wait and see! We saw that in the broadcasts this morning, but
:27:04. > :27:08.where is Labour? It seems as if we are just enjoying the fight between
:27:09. > :27:14.them, but that is not putting our position. Labour maybe in the
:27:15. > :27:18.European Union, I support being in it, but we're not putting the
:27:19. > :27:24.arguments, and so when you see on a bus there, for example, on Boris's
:27:25. > :27:28.bus, ?350 million a week to put into the health service, this is from a
:27:29. > :27:33.government that reduced from 9% of GDP the average in Europe to 7%, and
:27:34. > :27:40.when they go on with a Labour politician in this way, Gisela, the
:27:41. > :27:43.Tories get the publicity, and they are in the background. We are not
:27:44. > :27:48.putting down the record of the Tories, they cannot do it because
:27:49. > :27:52.they are in a joint agreement on a bus about Europe. Let me just get
:27:53. > :27:57.another question in, as a result of everything you say, are you worried
:27:58. > :28:03.that you are failing to galvanise the Labour vote, do get it out to
:28:04. > :28:07.vote for Remain on the 23rd? Absolutely! Labour people want to
:28:08. > :28:11.hear Labour people talking about this government's record, whether
:28:12. > :28:15.they are four in or out, they carried out a record that is
:28:16. > :28:23.basically destroying our health service, housing was halved in
:28:24. > :28:25.billions, and now they say they will bring it. Michael Gove says all
:28:26. > :28:29.these terrible bankers, why didn't the vote with Labour to stop the
:28:30. > :28:33.bonuses for them? He didn't, he doesn't, they are hypocritical, we
:28:34. > :28:36.must show that Labour has strong values, we believe in social
:28:37. > :28:44.justice. When you have heard Tories talking about being social justice?!
:28:45. > :28:49.Look Labour, at Labour. Maybe Labour voters are confused, when you look
:28:50. > :28:54.at Jeremy Corbyn's pro EU speech, he spent as much time attacking the
:28:55. > :29:00.Tories and EU policies. Good on Jeremy! By Sea said the bad things
:29:01. > :29:05.predicted by Vote Leave work addicted by those who say we should
:29:06. > :29:10.remain, that all the scare stories were just myth-making and prophecies
:29:11. > :29:14.of doom. Is it any surprise that Labour voters are confused? Yes, but
:29:15. > :29:19.I do not think we should talk too much about what we should do, Jeremy
:29:20. > :29:24.is not a passionate man, he does not scream and shout like me, does he?!
:29:25. > :29:28.But to that extent, our people want to see, and this is what has
:29:29. > :29:34.happened to politics, people speak and do believe what they are saying!
:29:35. > :29:39.On both sides, Cameron's side, Boris Johnson, they are saying things that
:29:40. > :29:45.they did not do in government, which Labour oppose, and they are against
:29:46. > :29:49.social justice. We want a Labour Europe, different to them, not, we
:29:50. > :29:54.all believe in Europe, let's travel on the same bus! No wonder people
:29:55. > :29:57.are confused, get a strong Labour voice, and glad Jeremy said what he
:29:58. > :30:03.said, but point out what these beggars did in government!
:30:04. > :30:12.What about the confusion, even Damian McBride caught on Twitter
:30:13. > :30:13.offering policy tips to the Brexit campaign.
:30:14. > :30:42.Labour voters seem to be confused. I don't say that the Europe they
:30:43. > :30:45.want is the one I want. I took part in the last referendum. Despite the
:30:46. > :30:52.Tories not giving us a referendum and taking us in 1975 into the
:30:53. > :30:56.common market. I do believe, I was against a political Europe. In fact,
:30:57. > :31:00.I turned down a job with Jim Callaghan to be commissioner. On
:31:01. > :31:04.that ground, I thought that is where they were heading.
:31:05. > :31:13.I can't say it has stopped. What we argued then was for a wider Europe
:31:14. > :31:16.so we didn't move along the federal Europe case. That is still an
:31:17. > :31:17.argument to be fought for, I feel strongly, Labour does. I'm not sure
:31:18. > :31:23.the Tories pursued it. Sadiq Khan, tested Jarrell, Harriet
:31:24. > :31:28.Harman, they have appeared with Tories, including the Prime
:31:29. > :31:36.Minister. You refused, but last night you were appearing on Russia
:31:37. > :31:39.Today, a Putin propaganda channel, with Ken Livingstone, he has been
:31:40. > :31:46.suspended from your party, have you thought this through?
:31:47. > :31:51.Of course. I don't go in joint party operations, I never have. I didn't
:31:52. > :31:56.when I fought the Labour in 1975. I am the same. I am not saying they
:31:57. > :32:01.can't or shouldn't. We are saying the Labour vote is crucial and there
:32:02. > :32:04.is confusion as to the Labour position.
:32:05. > :32:09.Standing alongside Tory politicians, the survey has recently shown most
:32:10. > :32:17.of the speeches that come out of that are Tory spokesmen. 48% Tory,
:32:18. > :32:28.8% Labour. Why are we confused? Like in Scotland, if you appear alongside
:32:29. > :32:29.them bring on Europe, you better start telling people what you
:32:30. > :32:32.disagree about. Jeremy is trying to do that. I
:32:33. > :32:34.wouldn't do it, it adds to the confusion. If you can't get the
:32:35. > :32:36.Labour vote out in big numbers, are you worried you could lose this
:32:37. > :32:41.referendum? Yes. I want every Labour person in
:32:42. > :32:47.to vote. I fought on the last one thinking we would win on the
:32:48. > :32:51.referendum, and we lost, mainly it was particularly women, they get
:32:52. > :32:56.concerned about the long-term, their children, security, I think that is
:32:57. > :33:05.what defeated as in 1975. Seriously, I think it will go the other way. We
:33:06. > :33:11.need to be talking about the big powers. It is not Britain on its
:33:12. > :33:16.own, it is global powers, America, India, China, who will decide the
:33:17. > :33:21.issue about crime, immigration, security. We will be a little island
:33:22. > :33:27.shouting out, don't you recognise we are a big power. But we will have no
:33:28. > :33:31.say in a global decision. Jeremy Corbyn has hinted he might
:33:32. > :33:35.bring Ed Miliband into the Shadow Cabinet. What about you, are you
:33:36. > :33:41.available? I have done my bit for the Labour
:33:42. > :33:46.Party, except shouting on the side as I do. That is his decision. I
:33:47. > :33:54.want to see a united party. One of the things is people are confused
:33:55. > :34:02.because of these changes. Where does Labour stand? Start talking about it
:34:03. > :34:05.and be clearer on immigration. We have been cowards, the whole
:34:06. > :34:13.political establishment has avoided the argument. That is a global
:34:14. > :34:17.solution. There will be more migration coming from African
:34:18. > :34:22.countries which have no water or food because of climate change. This
:34:23. > :34:25.is not a temporary problem but a global problem and needs a global
:34:26. > :34:29.solution and not a little country on the side shouting and staying out of
:34:30. > :34:31.it. Thank you.
:34:32. > :34:33.Now, even if plenty folks are still undecided,
:34:34. > :34:37.you might think most Mps will have made their mind up as to how they'll
:34:38. > :34:40.It's only two-and-a-half weeks to go, after all.
:34:41. > :34:43.But, according to our research, there at still 26 undecided Tory
:34:44. > :34:46.Well, we're going to reduce that number by one today,
:34:47. > :34:50.as the Conservative MP Johnny Mercer is here to reveal for the first time
:34:51. > :35:04.What is your decision? The first thing to say is, like a lot of
:35:05. > :35:07.people, being out on the doors of Plymouth, we are disappointed by the
:35:08. > :35:10.level of debate. Even today.
:35:11. > :35:17.What is your decision? It is important to get this across.
:35:18. > :35:20.But tell me, leave or remain? Two Government ministers saying the
:35:21. > :35:23.Government is not telling the truth about the economy which has upset
:35:24. > :35:31.people. In terms of this referendum, it is
:35:32. > :35:35.clear we should remain, not a single economic expert has come out and
:35:36. > :35:38.said this will do things for our economy, our jobs.
:35:39. > :35:42.If you look at what this garment has delivered in places like Plymouth
:35:43. > :35:47.around jobs, the single biggest factor in improving people's life
:35:48. > :35:51.chances, it has done good things. It is the economic case.
:35:52. > :35:56.And a security case. Why do the people of Plymouth seem not
:35:57. > :36:00.convinced quite a recent polls say they were largely for Leave.
:36:01. > :36:04.A poll I have been running has come out and said that.
:36:05. > :36:10.When this debate started, I said this was an issue, not the issue. It
:36:11. > :36:16.has become clear. I did not think we would vote to leave the EU. This is
:36:17. > :36:20.a vote of singular importance to this country. People have begun to
:36:21. > :36:24.forget we need to get on with Government on June 24.
:36:25. > :36:31.That may be the case. But do you think you can win on the economic
:36:32. > :36:34.arguments? With the economic arguments, there are single clear
:36:35. > :36:41.points. On the economy, the people who
:36:42. > :36:45.always feel the worst affected, it is always the most vulnerable.
:36:46. > :36:49.Always those who file like a desperate struggle. My area of
:36:50. > :36:54.Plymouth is still categorised by the EU as a deprived area in parts. They
:36:55. > :36:59.cannot take that shock. It is OK for others to say we can go to this
:37:00. > :37:04.nirvana. The truth is the same people are affected.
:37:05. > :37:07.Why do 74% in your constituency say...
:37:08. > :37:13.That is a very small poll. But it is indicative of the mood,
:37:14. > :37:15.74%. People will feel more passionate
:37:16. > :37:19.about leaving because for some people this is a single issue. They
:37:20. > :37:24.have been looking for a reason to come out and leave the EU. I think
:37:25. > :37:30.the vast majority do not want to leave. You are looking at where we
:37:31. > :37:35.are now it is not perfect. We are on this trajectory. Do we throw it away
:37:36. > :37:41.for a nirvana no one can quite lay their hands on. Could the most
:37:42. > :37:45.vulnerable in the UK who rely on a job, on the NHS, public service
:37:46. > :37:50.funding, could they withstand that shock? I can look them in the eye
:37:51. > :37:54.and say, I went this based on something that sounded like a great
:37:55. > :37:58.idea but I could not go for it. It has loads of problems.
:37:59. > :38:01.Why take so long? Thinking about Europe is not something I got into
:38:02. > :38:07.politics today about. I have spoken to a lot of people. It
:38:08. > :38:13.would be naive to suggest there are reasons why people want to leave. On
:38:14. > :38:18.balance, it is a clear case. Society is judged by how it looks after its
:38:19. > :38:23.vulnerable. We have to remain part of the EU to continue to do that. It
:38:24. > :38:26.isn't perfect. Thank you for coming on and telling
:38:27. > :38:33.We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now
:38:34. > :38:37.Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead, when we'll be
:38:38. > :38:39.talking about the referendum and the TV debates with the veteran
:38:40. > :38:40.Conservative backbencher David Davis.
:38:41. > :38:50.First, though, the Sunday Politics where you are.
:38:51. > :38:52.Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.
:38:53. > :38:55.Tomorrow the newly elected Assembly has its first full
:38:56. > :38:57.day of business and - for the first time in its modern
:38:58. > :38:59.incarnation - there'll be an Opposition to
:39:00. > :39:06.But has peace broken out between the two Executive parties?
:39:07. > :39:13.I hope that this week has shown that we are confident in our decisions.
:39:14. > :39:17.We're getting out there and making those decisions and moving forward.
:39:18. > :39:21.There is a recognition that we have to work together.
:39:22. > :39:23.But will the new leader of the Opposition ruin the honeymoon?
:39:24. > :39:26.I'll be asking Mike Nesbitt how he sees his role over
:39:27. > :39:29.And with me throughout, journalists Sam McBride
:39:30. > :39:36.The third consecutive Stormont mandate gets down to business this
:39:37. > :39:38.week with a full agenda - the first since last
:39:39. > :39:42.As well as new faces on the benches there's also a new structure
:39:43. > :39:47.But already this week we've seen a DUP minister visit
:39:48. > :39:51.an Irish language school and a Sinn Fein Minister
:39:52. > :39:53.lift the lifetime ban on gay blood donors.
:39:54. > :39:59.So has the good weather improved the mood around the Executive table?
:40:00. > :40:09.I welcome very much the fact that Peter went there. It was very good
:40:10. > :40:12.to see a DUP minister recognised how important a contribution Irish
:40:13. > :40:16.climate education makes to our children. I think also Michelle's
:40:17. > :40:23.decision which has been supported by the executive in relation to the
:40:24. > :40:28.lifting of the ban on gay blood is very welcome story for the LGBT
:40:29. > :40:32.community. But I do think all this symbolises the fact that since the
:40:33. > :40:38.agreement in November of last year, there is a recognition both within
:40:39. > :40:43.the DUP and Sinn Fein that we have to work together and we have to be
:40:44. > :40:46.seen to be giving leadership to everybody within society. We have to
:40:47. > :40:51.show people that things are going to be different from the last term and
:40:52. > :40:53.I think we are beginning to see that is taking shape.
:40:54. > :40:56.We indicated that we wanted to get on with the job of governing and
:40:57. > :41:00.think that we are confident enough to do all that they hope that this
:41:01. > :41:03.week has shown that we are confident in our decisions, we're getting out
:41:04. > :41:08.there, we are making those decisions and we're moving forward.
:41:09. > :41:11.In terms of the decision on reversing the blood ban, were you
:41:12. > :41:15.happy with that? I was because we always said that
:41:16. > :41:20.such a decision should be based on science and based on medical
:41:21. > :41:23.evidence and that medical evidence was there. Michelle came with the
:41:24. > :41:28.evidence to others and I was quite happy to endorse the decision that
:41:29. > :41:34.they suggested. If Simon had the chance to deal with it for the
:41:35. > :41:36.election he would have done so. Is there choreography going on here
:41:37. > :41:41.between the DUP and Sinn Fein because yesterday we had the Irish
:41:42. > :41:45.climate school and we had Martin McGuinness at the Somme. Is that how
:41:46. > :41:48.you are working together? I don't think there is choreography
:41:49. > :41:52.toll. Peter is new into the department and has been visiting a
:41:53. > :41:57.number of schools. He has been to his old Grammar School in Banga,
:41:58. > :42:00.he's been to a primary school and he was at an Irish language school and
:42:01. > :42:05.I estimate you will be many other schools in the coming months as
:42:06. > :42:11.well. Listening to that is the first
:42:12. > :42:14.Leader of the Opposition in half a century, Mike Nesbitt. Good morning.
:42:15. > :42:18.Are you planning to spoil the party for them?
:42:19. > :42:22.No. We are about scrutiny and that is not the same necessarily a
:42:23. > :42:26.criticism. If you scrutinise and you think it is good you should say so.
:42:27. > :42:30.For example, I very much welcome the lifting of the blood ban. I would
:42:31. > :42:40.also welcome Peter we're going to the Irish language school. I did
:42:41. > :42:44.that a few months ago. And I'm determined to engage and understand
:42:45. > :42:47.better why those who an Irish language actually wanted.
:42:48. > :42:52.Those two examples that we've talked about already and of course Martin
:42:53. > :42:56.McGuinness travelling to the Somme, they put you on the back foot, don't
:42:57. > :43:00.they? Because it looks like the DUP and Sinn Fein are very purposeful
:43:01. > :43:04.and united and strategic. They have had nine years and now
:43:05. > :43:07.they have an endorsement from the electorate and that it's fine. But
:43:08. > :43:13.we are about delivery and scrutinising the delivery from
:43:14. > :43:16.Government. We did try to fight the campaign for the last Assembly
:43:17. > :43:19.election on lack of delivery in terms of the 80 million for property
:43:20. > :43:23.and all the rest unless not go over that again. This is a new mandate.
:43:24. > :43:26.We will have a programme for Government eventually and our job
:43:27. > :43:31.will be to scrutinise that programme and its delivery. As I say, when it
:43:32. > :43:33.is delivered properly, we will give praise and when it is not we will
:43:34. > :43:38.criticise. Dust before we get onto the wider
:43:39. > :43:42.issues I want pick up on that Martin McGuinness trip. Due welcome the
:43:43. > :43:46.fact he travelled there this week? I think you did the right thing and
:43:47. > :43:50.I think he did it in the right way because had he delayed his trip to
:43:51. > :43:54.go on the 1st of July, it would've been controversial and it would have
:43:55. > :43:58.dominated the centenary anniversary commemorations. So I think he did do
:43:59. > :44:04.the right thing. Just as I believe I was right to go with some of my
:44:05. > :44:08.colleagues down to Dublin a you days ago to the cemetery for an Easter
:44:09. > :44:15.centenary event commemorating the British soldiers. Many of whom are
:44:16. > :44:17.Irishmen, or from the Ireland and died in the rebellion.
:44:18. > :44:21.He says he is demonstrating sensitive and strong leadership.
:44:22. > :44:25.To you agree? I think in terms of what he did, that was the right
:44:26. > :44:28.thing to do. I am more than happy to say that that is the right thing
:44:29. > :44:31.that he did. What about this concept of
:44:32. > :44:35.collective responsibility? We talked about it in the last mandate when it
:44:36. > :44:39.clearly was not there. And for a large part of that mandate your
:44:40. > :44:42.party was around the executive table. It seems that the DUP and
:44:43. > :44:47.Sinn Fein are happy you are not there now and they seem to have
:44:48. > :44:50.signed up completely to the concept of collective responsibility. They
:44:51. > :44:53.are inextricably linked and bounced together in Government.
:44:54. > :44:58.I think what we had in the past two mandates was nine years when you had
:44:59. > :45:01.by all four parties in Government but actually, the smaller parties
:45:02. > :45:06.being bossed by the two bigger ones and the back that we now have the
:45:07. > :45:10.two parties, themselves alone in Government, is a more honest, open
:45:11. > :45:15.and transparent way to do business. This delivery will be by Sinn Fein
:45:16. > :45:18.and the DUP. And we're now and shackled. We have 16 MLAs who will
:45:19. > :45:23.not be shackled by the fact that once I sat at the executive table
:45:24. > :45:27.and has maybe put his hand up for a policy that the others want to
:45:28. > :45:31.criticise. We are unshackled now and we can say exactly what we think
:45:32. > :45:35.about what the executive is doing. What is opposition going to look
:45:36. > :45:40.like? You of the largest party in opposition but are you going solo?
:45:41. > :45:44.Is this about the Ulster Unionist Party's opposition strategy with 16
:45:45. > :45:48.members, or is it about forming a united opposition with the other
:45:49. > :45:54.biggest party in opposition, namely the SDLP?
:45:55. > :45:57.It is not a secret that we've had discussions with the SDLP and we
:45:58. > :46:01.will continue to have discussions with the SDLP but we will not be
:46:02. > :46:05.rushed into anything. It has taken the DUP and Sinn Fein nine years to
:46:06. > :46:08.get their relationship to the point where you are able to say they have
:46:09. > :46:13.got their act together so we're going to take time to see how we go.
:46:14. > :46:18.We have formed a team of spokespeople across the whole piece.
:46:19. > :46:21.We expect the SDLP will do the same thing. But at the Goodwood make
:46:22. > :46:26.sense of the various spokespeople started looking to see there are
:46:27. > :46:30.areas where we can cooperate and develop alternative policies.
:46:31. > :46:35.You would like it to be a joined up approach? Would you be the Leader of
:46:36. > :46:38.the Opposition and would Colum Eastwood be the deputy leader?
:46:39. > :46:42.That is the sort of line which which is not helpful.
:46:43. > :46:46.It is not bad from your point of view but maybe not by him.
:46:47. > :46:50.I have gone out of my way to say to him that you are the leader of the
:46:51. > :46:52.SDLP. You're not the deputy leader or anything. If we're going to work
:46:53. > :46:57.together it will be as coal equals on this.
:46:58. > :47:02.I many times have you sat down and talked to Colum Eastwood about the
:47:03. > :47:08.possibilities? What is the plan? How close do you think you are due being
:47:09. > :47:11.able to sign up to a joint approach? We're not discussing signing up to
:47:12. > :47:14.anything formal at this time. We have the spokespeople hopefully
:47:15. > :47:18.starting to talk to each other. I will continue to build on a
:47:19. > :47:23.relationship with Colum Eastwood. We sat together for a while with the
:47:24. > :47:28.mandate. I like his style. I like Ricky is going and I like back to 30
:47:29. > :47:31.wants Northern Ireland to work. His motivation for that is different
:47:32. > :47:36.from mine obviously because he aspires to a united Ireland but that
:47:37. > :47:40.motivation is no bar to working with him to ensure that the health
:47:41. > :47:44.service gets fixed, that we create more high earning jobs, that we do
:47:45. > :47:47.all the things that we aspire that says Northern Ireland does actually
:47:48. > :47:52.work. Let's be honest. Wouldn't a combined
:47:53. > :47:56.opposition speak with a much longer boys spent two positions of 16 and
:47:57. > :48:01.13 respectively. -- much louder voice. If you're
:48:02. > :48:05.saying I want to give your alternative logic says you want to
:48:06. > :48:10.try and present a cross community alternative. So I will aspire to
:48:11. > :48:14.that but what I am saying is we will not be rushed or pushed into it.
:48:15. > :48:16.But you need to get on with it because tomorrow is the first full
:48:17. > :48:19.day of proper business. They know is that what they are
:48:20. > :48:23.doing and already the opposition is not quite clear.
:48:24. > :48:26.It is only been a number of days. The DUP and Sinn Fein have an
:48:27. > :48:30.working on their relationship for nine years. So I think we can take a
:48:31. > :48:34.little bit of time to get this right.
:48:35. > :48:38.Let's talk about the committees. A lot of the opposition, the opposing
:48:39. > :48:42.should take face. There was a real possibility in this mandate that if
:48:43. > :48:46.the DUP and Sinn Fein work as closely together as they seem to be
:48:47. > :48:50.suggesting they want to, and controversial issues will be dealt
:48:51. > :48:54.with in private between themselves and by the time it filters down to
:48:55. > :48:56.the committees it is already been agreed.
:48:57. > :49:01.That is speculation. We will have to wait and see.
:49:02. > :49:06.It is informed speculation. I tell you what is possible. The DUP and
:49:07. > :49:09.Sinn Fein being themselves alone in Government reduction it work better
:49:10. > :49:14.than what we have had over the last nine years and if you believe in
:49:15. > :49:19.country first, party second, which I do, then what I have done, that is
:49:20. > :49:23.the result, is a good thing. Even if it is not a great thing for the
:49:24. > :49:26.Ulster Unionist Party. If these parties deliver positive outcomes
:49:27. > :49:31.for our people in the way they have not done over the last two mandates,
:49:32. > :49:34.of course that is a good thing. Even by saying that you're shooting
:49:35. > :49:36.yourself in the foot. You're saying is probably better the people in
:49:37. > :49:40.Northern Ireland for Sinn Fein and the DUP to work together towards
:49:41. > :49:45.some kind of agreed policy for the benefit of everybody in the country
:49:46. > :49:49.and pushing you to one side. That is effectively what you are suggesting.
:49:50. > :49:52.That is the mandate they were given and our job is to scrutinise how
:49:53. > :49:55.they deliver on that. It might be difficult to do that
:49:56. > :49:59.with the committee system the way it is because you have intentionally
:50:00. > :50:04.committees were a DUP chair and step easy chair could protect a Sinn Fein
:50:05. > :50:11.minister and vice versa. I cheer for the last four years. Like all the
:50:12. > :50:15.other committees there are 11 members. Four of them were from the
:50:16. > :50:20.DUP and three from Sinn Fein so if they wanted to at any point they
:50:21. > :50:22.could have closed down. It was different in the previous mandate
:50:23. > :50:26.because they were not working so closely together. With respect,
:50:27. > :50:27.there were times in that committee where you
:50:28. > :50:32.could see them eyeballing each other across the table and it was a clear
:50:33. > :50:37.signal, let's close this down. And it may well be that happens much
:50:38. > :50:41.more in the new mandate and the poor Sinn Fein and the DUP together have
:50:42. > :50:45.a majority on every single committee including your own committee.
:50:46. > :50:49.Yes. It is the same again. Four and three. Seven of the 11 on the
:50:50. > :50:52.executive office committee. If they want to close it down on
:50:53. > :50:54.committees they don't stop that scrutiny they can do that
:50:55. > :50:58.effectively. You are to this. That is the mandate
:50:59. > :51:01.that they have been given and the committees are not the only way we
:51:02. > :51:05.will bring forward switch me of another nation. Would do it in the
:51:06. > :51:12.chamber, media, whatever means we think is appropriate.
:51:13. > :51:15.Would he put together some kind of programme for opposition which
:51:16. > :51:19.people can compare and contrast? We've got a document now where we've
:51:20. > :51:25.been circulated with a draft framework for Government.
:51:26. > :51:29.What you are talking about is the second document in a series of
:51:30. > :51:32.three. What they promise was a framework and that was supposed to
:51:33. > :51:35.be ready for the 6th of May and use over two weeks to produce a draft
:51:36. > :51:40.programme for Government which should now be finished and out for
:51:41. > :51:47.consultation leading to the final... They publish the first one and that
:51:48. > :51:50.is the framework. They will consult on that then draw up a draft
:51:51. > :51:53.programme for Government, then consult on that and then finally at
:51:54. > :51:58.the end of the year publish a document. You read paragraph 61 of
:51:59. > :52:05.the agreement and they have failed to deliver on that agreement.
:52:06. > :52:09.People at home might think, that -- had on them. A lot of people want
:52:10. > :52:12.things done differently so if they manage to get their act together
:52:13. > :52:15.they may agree with you that it could be better for everybody in
:52:16. > :52:20.Northern Ireland. If that is the case, you are stuffed.
:52:21. > :52:23.They are putting a lot of store on this so-called fresh start agreement
:52:24. > :52:27.on what I'm saying to you, one of the core commitments in paragraph 61
:52:28. > :52:32.is already a clear failure. They have failed to deliver what they
:52:33. > :52:36.promise. In terms of an alternative programme for Government be not only
:52:37. > :52:39.published a manifesto ahead of the 5th of May, we published eight other
:52:40. > :52:43.documents, a vision document and seven specific policy documents so
:52:44. > :52:45.the bones of an alternative programme for Government are already
:52:46. > :52:53.there. Before I bring in Colum Eastwood and
:52:54. > :52:57.Sam, you being quite magnanimous and we will see how that pans out in the
:52:58. > :53:00.chamber when you get the wind in your back is the official Leader of
:53:01. > :53:06.the Opposition but someone watching who is a young Unionist who fancies
:53:07. > :53:10.a career in politics and can't decide between Ulster Unionists and
:53:11. > :53:14.the DUP, why would he or she choose the Ulster Unionists over the DUP
:53:15. > :53:17.with a DUP is in Government, seems to be unassailable Andras the having
:53:18. > :53:21.to accept that if they do a good job that is grand by me?
:53:22. > :53:30.If you That is what all editions are all
:53:31. > :53:31.about. We have a credo ended his country
:53:32. > :53:34.first, party second that individual bird.
:53:35. > :53:39.Maybe you need to rethink that? Without that you would not have the
:53:40. > :53:44.Belfast agreement in 1998. Let whomever weather DUP were on those
:53:45. > :53:50.big the Asians. They were on the other side of the crash barriers. We
:53:51. > :53:56.have done is a game by creating an official opposition. It is the right
:53:57. > :54:01.time. Is not great for the Ulster Unionist Party.
:54:02. > :54:04.Since 1998 you're gone down and down and down and dwindled and you said
:54:05. > :54:10.yourself you went back to 16 seeds which could not be considered to be
:54:11. > :54:14.successful. -- seats. It is over four years since we've
:54:15. > :54:19.had 16 MLAs up at Stormont so our capacity to do the job is greatly
:54:20. > :54:23.enhanced even if we did not grow the numbers in the way I had hoped.
:54:24. > :54:36.Thank you. Stay with us because I want to ring in camp two and Sam.
:54:37. > :54:39.What you make of the thing to back way things are shaping up between
:54:40. > :54:47.this cohesive approach between the DUP and Sinn Fein and then, and as
:54:48. > :54:52.yet unclear, opposition? I don't believe it is a cohesive
:54:53. > :54:57.approach by the DUP and Sinn Fein. It appears to be much more amicable.
:54:58. > :55:00.It looked very nice this week in various nice things were done in a
:55:01. > :55:05.nice way but at the bottom about what we have is the DUP saying it
:55:06. > :55:14.will be our way or no way. And Sinn Fein for pragmatic and no doubt
:55:15. > :55:18.magnanimous and reasons which mean because they have invested so much
:55:19. > :55:22.in getting into a peace process and maintaining it, have decided to
:55:23. > :55:26.allow that to pass. There are a lot of people who think this has only
:55:27. > :55:30.gone as far as it has an done as well as it has because Sinn Fein
:55:31. > :55:37.have button-down lip and there are a lot of people in Sinn Fein who are
:55:38. > :55:42.not happy about that. As I imagine there are people in Mike Nesbitt's
:55:43. > :55:46.support base who are not happy he has been as magnanimous as he has
:55:47. > :55:49.been today. This is the difficulty for both those parties. The
:55:50. > :55:53.difficulty of politics here in general that if you try and make
:55:54. > :55:57.peace, if you tried about in your lip you are offending people in your
:55:58. > :55:59.own support base. It is intriguing situation because
:56:00. > :56:04.were so many years we have had people saying we want constructive
:56:05. > :56:08.politics. We want people to work together and then people begin to
:56:09. > :56:13.work together and it throws up new challenges and difficulties.
:56:14. > :56:17.I think people could be forgiven for being confused because we coming out
:56:18. > :56:20.of an election winner DUP were saying vote for us to stop Martin
:56:21. > :56:25.McGuinness said they were pushing that message themselves. Now they
:56:26. > :56:28.have changed that and realise they are to work together and they have
:56:29. > :56:31.been forced to do that much closer than they would have had to do if
:56:32. > :56:36.there was not an opposition facing them. I think Mike Nesbitt has
:56:37. > :56:41.struck gold with a good tone in that there is a lot of criticism of the
:56:42. > :56:44.SDLP and the Ulster Unionists that they are just opposed to everything
:56:45. > :56:47.and they need to see this as a long game. They are in opposition for
:56:48. > :56:51.five years. There will be issues where they oppose the Government
:56:52. > :56:54.can't just be seen as Jim Allister with extra seas. They need to be
:56:55. > :56:58.able to present something which could form a Government at some
:56:59. > :57:01.stage and I think they are wise actually to work together where they
:57:02. > :57:04.need to but also to keep their separate identities are not be in a
:57:05. > :57:13.position where something happens in the SDLP over a macho support --
:57:14. > :57:22.over a March, and Mike Nesbitt is having to answer for it, and vice
:57:23. > :57:27.versa with Colum Eastwood. Can they keep them all the line?
:57:28. > :57:30.They have that situation over the community centre where the DUP do
:57:31. > :57:33.not want public funding to go towards that because the names of
:57:34. > :57:41.two IRA men from the 1920s would be on the gates. Is that an example of
:57:42. > :57:47.the kind of events that could derail the collective responsibility around
:57:48. > :57:50.the executive table? Collected responsibility and the
:57:51. > :57:54.ability to make common cause in the opposition are rule depended on
:57:55. > :57:58.events and a series of events coming up now which are called the marching
:57:59. > :58:06.season. It will test Mike and it would text -- I was fascinated by
:58:07. > :58:11.the thought that two parties in opposition, who may be able to
:58:12. > :58:16.proceed in a way and build links between each other, or maybe will be
:58:17. > :58:19.torn apart by the same things that have torn apart politics here
:58:20. > :58:23.overall these years. Nonetheless it is progress.
:58:24. > :58:28.I did not think it was possible and did not think they should go into
:58:29. > :58:34.opposition. Events pose big challenges but if
:58:35. > :58:39.you believe in it and you wanted to work you will get through events.
:58:40. > :58:44.If you hold your nerve through the marching season.
:58:45. > :58:48.I think a lot of people say that one of the problems previously when the
:58:49. > :58:50.Ulster Unionists were at the heart of Government where the
:58:51. > :58:54.interpersonal relationships which were not great. I am confident I can
:58:55. > :58:57.build a good relationship with Colum Eastwood.
:58:58. > :59:01.We will see and we will give a close eye.
:59:02. > :59:05.I'm you will. Thank you very much. We will hear more in a moment or two
:59:06. > :59:14.but let's pause and take a look back at the political week in 60 seconds.
:59:15. > :59:18.As the football teams from those parts of the island got ready for
:59:19. > :59:22.the euro is the Deputy First Minister was also on foreign soil as
:59:23. > :59:26.he visited World War I battlefields. I am out of my comfort zone here
:59:27. > :59:40.today. But that is what leaders do. I think if you are not -- a leader
:59:41. > :59:45.you have to lead from the front. 100 anniversary of the battle
:59:46. > :59:48.doctrine. The new Health Minister lifted the lifetime ban on gay men
:59:49. > :59:52.donating blood here. I have been opposed for eight days.
:59:53. > :59:56.I took the decision based on the evidence I had on front of being
:59:57. > :59:59.will stop a comedian to go on a politician as they battle to win
:00:00. > :00:06.hearts and minds over Europe. What signal does it sends to the
:00:07. > :00:09.world? Surely humanity moves forward by working together not by putting
:00:10. > :00:13.up more borders? Do you want to be able to decide the
:00:14. > :00:24.laws of your own country by electing politicians?
:00:25. > :00:29.Let's have a final word. Just a little flavour there of Thursday
:00:30. > :00:32.night's debate between Eddie Izzard and Sammy Wilson. Does that can
:00:33. > :00:35.exchange help people to make their minds up as an off a lot of people I
:00:36. > :00:39.meet say they still cannot work out which way to vote?
:00:40. > :00:42.Alternately that probably helps the remaining camp because when it comes
:00:43. > :00:47.to the bit in the final week of the election, as we saw in Scotland,
:00:48. > :00:51.people are more likely to plump for the evil they know.
:00:52. > :00:59.Do you agree with that broadly? I thought it was great to see him
:01:00. > :01:02.and Sammy having to be polite, faced with a man wearing lipstick and a
:01:03. > :01:05.pink beret. I think you did not know what to
:01:06. > :01:10.make of him. The claims never to oppose them before.
:01:11. > :01:13.John Major got stuck into the Brexit campaigners calling them deceitful
:01:14. > :01:16.and squalid. And that is what makes most people's
:01:17. > :01:21.minds are piping. Look at the people who are for each side and go for
:01:22. > :01:25.which way. The Brexit group do not appeal to an off a lot of people
:01:26. > :01:29.that the debate here is largely decided by original politics. Most
:01:30. > :01:32.Nationalists will bow to stay in and most Unionists narrowly perhaps will
:01:33. > :01:37.vote come out. A final word? The Government has
:01:38. > :01:40.been getting involved in the last week or so. They are alarmed about
:01:41. > :01:45.this. The group persuade those nationalistic, or Unionists could
:01:46. > :01:46.act against it. Thank you very much indeed. That is
:01:47. > :02:06.it from all David Davis will talk to is about
:02:07. > :02:11.the snoopers' charter, but that interview with John Major on the
:02:12. > :02:15.Andrew Marr Show, earlier we showed you in talking about the deceit of
:02:16. > :02:21.the Leave campaign, this is in talking about Boris Johnson's
:02:22. > :02:23.prospect of leading the party. If they continued to divide the
:02:24. > :02:28.Conservative Party, as they are doing at the present time, and if
:02:29. > :02:32.Boris has the laudable ambition, because it is laudable to become
:02:33. > :02:36.Prime Minister, he will find, if he achieves that, that he will not have
:02:37. > :02:42.the loyalty of the party he divided. Iain Duncan Smith was serially
:02:43. > :02:45.disloyal in the 1990s. When he became leader, he was surprised that
:02:46. > :02:51.no-one was loyal to him. Boris should learn from that.
:02:52. > :02:58.What was the purpose of his interview this morning?
:02:59. > :03:01.I guess number ten asked him to do it, and being a loyal supporter of a
:03:02. > :03:07.Tory party, he would do that. I guess he was trying to reduce the
:03:08. > :03:12.credibility of the Leave campaign's claim. Some irony when you consider
:03:13. > :03:17.the most incredible claim has been from George Osborne, the Treasury,
:03:18. > :03:22.in terms of his forecasts, and even what John Major said, I was his last
:03:23. > :03:28.defender in the Commons, the numbers bandying around.
:03:29. > :03:35.He said for example this controversial ?350 million was one
:03:36. > :03:40.third of that. That is half the net contribution. He said industries
:03:41. > :03:45.would face 10% levies. The car industry would, but most of
:03:46. > :03:48.the others would be up to 5%. He was not being very
:03:49. > :03:52.straightforward with the numbers. Were you surprised how personal the
:03:53. > :03:56.attacks on Boris well. We know he has long hated Iain
:03:57. > :04:04.Duncan Smith. Understandable. But saying in the
:04:05. > :04:09.hands of Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, IDS, the NHS would be like
:04:10. > :04:17.a hamster in a room with a pattern. He was trashing the Tory brand.
:04:18. > :04:21.A harsh attack. I don't think it was very wise.
:04:22. > :04:24.One of the problems both sides of this campaign have had is it is too
:04:25. > :04:30.personalised. The public don't like it. After the
:04:31. > :04:34.23rd, we had to pull the party together.
:04:35. > :04:37.With that sort of attack, it is a bad idea.
:04:38. > :04:42.Sam. Let me put it this way. Whatever the result, things for the
:04:43. > :04:48.Tories will never be the same again for the rest of this Parliament.
:04:49. > :04:53.It will be very hard. Clearly with a working majority of about 18, hard
:04:54. > :04:58.to get contentious the station through, the biggest area of danger
:04:59. > :05:03.for David Cameron. He will be a zombie Prime Minister, he can't get
:05:04. > :05:07.it through the Commons, and the Lords is a different matter where
:05:08. > :05:11.legislation will get stuck. You saw the kinds of things in the
:05:12. > :05:17.Queen's Speech. With the exception of the data Bill, I can't see any of
:05:18. > :05:21.the bills will be that radical when they get passed into law. So I think
:05:22. > :05:24.there will be a successful coup after June the 23rd, that seems
:05:25. > :05:31.unlikely. Even if it is a vote to Leave.
:05:32. > :05:37.That could change things. I think David Cameron would go within his
:05:38. > :05:41.own time. In the case of a remain vote, there are up to 20 MPs who
:05:42. > :05:47.bitterly disliked David Cameron. I don't think that number has
:05:48. > :05:51.dramatically increased solely as a result of the referendum campaign.
:05:52. > :05:55.There is a safety valve, the leadership election which will
:05:56. > :06:00.happen possibly sooner than you think.
:06:01. > :06:06.There may not be an immediate coup even if the vote is to Remain.
:06:07. > :06:11.The keyword or words, zombie parliaments, there are anything
:06:12. > :06:13.between 20-50 MPs deeply disillusioned with the Prime
:06:14. > :06:19.Minister. They have a taste for revolt. The
:06:20. > :06:24.Government majority is derisory. This Government could now find it
:06:25. > :06:29.very difficult to get anything major through this potential zombie
:06:30. > :06:33.parliament. That is absolutely true. On the
:06:34. > :06:37.matter of a coup, there are a number of mischief makers within the Tory
:06:38. > :06:40.ranks who don't mind if a coup succeeds or fails, they feel the
:06:41. > :06:47.Labour opposition is so weak, they have the luxury of doing this.
:06:48. > :06:53.I think the numbers are lower than you think. I would say 20, not more
:06:54. > :06:56.than that. That is enough, given the Government
:06:57. > :07:00.majority. These are the ones that hate the
:07:01. > :07:06.regime as it were. You have another group. The problem
:07:07. > :07:09.is not if there is a Brexit victory, but if there is a very narrow Remain
:07:10. > :07:16.victory. A lot of those wanting Brexit will
:07:17. > :07:20.feel they have been cheated. The ?9 million spent on the
:07:21. > :07:24.leaflets, all of that, they will be difficult to manage.
:07:25. > :07:29.This is a Government that has found it hard to get its budget through.
:07:30. > :07:34.Almost unprecedented, it lost most of the major parts of the budget
:07:35. > :07:42.unveiled in March. Would it not be even more difficult if it is a vote
:07:43. > :07:44.to Remain, but small, to get its business through except the
:07:45. > :07:51.noncontroversial. To say it is difficult for the
:07:52. > :07:57.future is a description of the past ten months, they had two H a great
:07:58. > :08:02.answer their planned pensions reform amongst other things.
:08:03. > :08:07.The potential American trade deal. Most recently, and prior to the
:08:08. > :08:10.referendum. Things will become difficult
:08:11. > :08:15.afterwards. David Cameron will end up leading my kind of Government, it
:08:16. > :08:24.won't do very much. The basic strategic stuff. What the founders
:08:25. > :08:29.in America intended. The one bit of optimism for the Tories, it picks up
:08:30. > :08:34.on David's point, I wouldn't underestimate how many Tory MPs want
:08:35. > :08:36.is referendum done with, that includes absolutely committed
:08:37. > :08:42.leaders who don't think much of David Cameron.
:08:43. > :08:45.Interviewing Johnny Mercer, he wants it over, you can tell from his
:08:46. > :08:51.demeanour. And he wouldn't look at me but there
:08:52. > :08:55.may be another reason! We don't need to go that!
:08:56. > :08:58.Let me ask you. Given the kind of Government our panel are talking
:08:59. > :09:02.about, it is already difficult for the Government to get things done.
:09:03. > :09:07.Even more difficult after the referendum I would suggest if it is
:09:08. > :09:11.Remain by a small majority. Does that give you hope for your
:09:12. > :09:17.continued opposition to the investigatory Powers act for the
:09:18. > :09:23.police and intelligence services? Taking up on the American view, look
:09:24. > :09:30.what happened with tax credits. There were about 40 people opposing
:09:31. > :09:34.it, only two voting against it. It went to the House of Lords, got
:09:35. > :09:37.knocked back. The Government knew there was a looming rebellion.
:09:38. > :09:40.That will be the message of the future.
:09:41. > :09:46.A lot of that pressure play. The investigative powers act, large
:09:47. > :09:48.parts of it will be flayed by the House of Lords, the Government will
:09:49. > :09:53.concede. That is the way it will happen.
:09:54. > :09:58.Whether it is the approval mechanisms or the data gathered or
:09:59. > :10:00.who has access, those will be challenged.
:10:01. > :10:05.All those things will now be more at risk at least after the referendum.
:10:06. > :10:10.Maybe why they are brushing it through in the next few days.
:10:11. > :10:14.I would suggest looking at the campaign, two and a half weeks to
:10:15. > :10:22.go, in the week up to the Whitsun bank holiday, Remain one that, and
:10:23. > :10:26.overwhelming economic amount of stuff coming out.
:10:27. > :10:27.In the weeks since leading up to this weekend, Leave have probably
:10:28. > :10:35.done better. The interviews on Sky.
:10:36. > :10:38.Still all to play for. Leave goes into this week probably with a
:10:39. > :10:45.spring in its step. I think that is right. One of the
:10:46. > :10:49.mistakes of the Remain campaign was at two different points, to feel
:10:50. > :10:56.like they were heading for victory. Once in the aftermath of the visit
:10:57. > :10:59.by President Barack Obama. They thought it was a big moment that
:11:00. > :11:07.would produce a push. A couple of weeks ago, they sensed
:11:08. > :11:10.that polls were going their way, in private conversations they thought
:11:11. > :11:15.they had got it in the bag. That created hubris and a problem.
:11:16. > :11:21.They did not see coming the Australian style points system
:11:22. > :11:25.attacked by Vote Leave last weekend, setting out plans. They thought it
:11:26. > :11:30.would be a policy freak referendum campaign. That pulled the debate
:11:31. > :11:34.back into the Leave side. Is Leave thinking it can win?
:11:35. > :11:41.Privately, I think they are beginning to think they have a 50-50
:11:42. > :11:45.chance, maybe more. Previously, privately, a lot would admit they
:11:46. > :11:49.felt pessimistic. I definitely sense a shift. If you
:11:50. > :11:57.look at what happened in Scotland, it was around this time use saw
:11:58. > :12:02.polls saw an advantage -- seeing an advantage for independence.
:12:03. > :12:08.Still three weeks to go, nobody is counting their chickens.
:12:09. > :12:14.I am reliably informed Leave is ahead but that is embargoed so I
:12:15. > :12:19.didn't mention it. But they still don't think they are
:12:20. > :12:23.losing? How big a victory do they need in
:12:24. > :12:29.order to put the question to bed and preserve the Prime Minister.
:12:30. > :12:34.At least 55-45? That would do it. The fact they
:12:35. > :12:40.deployed John Major shows they are worried.
:12:41. > :12:46.John Major was the nuclear weapons. Lose or win, yes or no?
:12:47. > :12:52.Brexit, a small margin. You heard it here first. Just to
:12:53. > :12:55.mention, as well as the debate we have been discussing, I will be
:12:56. > :12:56.interviewing leading figures from both sides of
:12:57. > :13:01.Starting tomorrow at 7.30 on BBC One, with Shadow Foreign
:13:02. > :13:05.Followed on Wednesday by Chancellor George Osborne.
:13:06. > :13:07.And then it's the turn of Leave campaigners Nigel Farage
:13:08. > :13:13.I hope you can join me, it should be fun.
:13:14. > :13:17.And, of course, we're back here next week as usual at 11 o'clock
:13:18. > :13:23.Remember, if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.