05/11/2017

0:00:38 > 0:00:40Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

0:00:40 > 0:00:42I'm Sarah Smith.

0:00:42 > 0:00:44And this is your guide to everything that's happening in the world

0:00:44 > 0:00:46of politics this Sunday morning.

0:00:46 > 0:00:49On today's show:

0:00:49 > 0:00:51Theresa May's right-hand man Damian Green has denied claims that

0:00:51 > 0:00:58police found pornography on a computer in his office in 2008.

0:00:58 > 0:01:01He says the allegations by a former police chief are "political smears."

0:01:01 > 0:01:03With claims of sexual harassment at Westminster growing by the day,

0:01:03 > 0:01:06can either Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn do anything to get

0:01:06 > 0:01:08to grips with a scandal threatening to engulf

0:01:08 > 0:01:12the entire political class?

0:01:12 > 0:01:18We'll ask a minister and senior member of the Shadow Cabinet.

0:01:18 > 0:01:21And some on the left of politics have been gathering to mark 100

0:01:23 > 0:01:25And coming up here:

0:01:25 > 0:01:28The DUP wants direct rule ministers in place within weeks we'll hear

0:01:28 > 0:01:30from the shadow Secretary of State, and find out how frustrating

0:01:30 > 0:01:37the stalemate is for Stormont's smaller parties.

0:01:45 > 0:01:46So there's plenty of explosive political news

0:01:46 > 0:01:49to get you in the mood for bonfire night -

0:01:49 > 0:01:51and with me as usual, three journalists who know quite

0:01:51 > 0:01:53a bit about parliamentary plots - if rather less about

0:01:53 > 0:01:54gunpowder and treason.

0:01:54 > 0:01:57It's Tom Newton Dunn, Isabel Oakeshott and Steve Richards.

0:01:57 > 0:02:00So what are the big political stories making the news this Sunday?

0:02:00 > 0:02:08Well, the papers are brimming with further allegations against MPs

0:02:08 > 0:02:11in the sexual harassment scandal, which according to one newspaper has

0:02:11 > 0:02:12left Westminster frozen in fear.

0:02:12 > 0:02:14First Secretary of State Damian Green, already under

0:02:14 > 0:02:16investigation over allegations - which he strongly denies -

0:02:16 > 0:02:19of propositioning a female activist, is the subject of new claims that

0:02:19 > 0:02:21police discovered pornography on a computer in his Westminster

0:02:21 > 0:02:23office in 2008.

0:02:23 > 0:02:25Mr Green denies the allegation, made by former senior

0:02:25 > 0:02:27police officer Bob Quick, saying it is "completely untrue,"

0:02:27 > 0:02:35and adding that he is the victim of disreputable "political smears."

0:02:35 > 0:02:38Michael Fallon, who resigned as Defence Secretary this week

0:02:38 > 0:02:40over his past behaviour, is also subject to fresh claims

0:02:40 > 0:02:46he lunged at a female journalist in 2003 after a lunch.

0:02:46 > 0:02:48Labour is facing questions over its handling of sexual

0:02:48 > 0:02:55misconduct allegations.

0:02:55 > 0:02:58This morning Shadow Cabinet minister Dawn Butler refused to be drawn

0:02:58 > 0:03:00on whether Jeremy Corbyn knew about alleged misconduct by MP

0:03:00 > 0:03:08Kelvin Hopkins when he was promoted to the Shadow Cabinet.

0:03:08 > 0:03:10And there is a reminder that normal political life goes on,

0:03:10 > 0:03:13with reports that the Cabinet has agreed to put housing at the heart

0:03:13 > 0:03:15of Philip Hammond's upcoming Budget.

0:03:15 > 0:03:17Well, let's hear from Home Secretary Amber Rudd now -

0:03:17 > 0:03:20she was on the Andrew Marr Show earlier talking about the claims

0:03:20 > 0:03:22against her Cabinet colleague Damian Green.

0:03:22 > 0:03:29Absolutely not. I think it is something that will take place in

0:03:29 > 0:03:34terms of clearing out Westminster of that sort of behaviour, and I think

0:03:34 > 0:03:36that Westminster afterwards, including the Government, will be

0:03:36 > 0:03:45better for it. When we are confident that men and women can work any

0:03:45 > 0:03:47respectful environment and people on the receiving end of abuse of power

0:03:47 > 0:03:54can come forward. That will be a positive thing.

0:03:54 > 0:03:58Let's see what our panel make of this fairly explosive week. Good

0:03:58 > 0:04:05morning to all of you. Starting with you, Steve. Not a party political

0:04:05 > 0:04:08issue but the Tories are in Government. How much harder for them

0:04:08 > 0:04:13is it an Labour?Always harder when you are in Government because it

0:04:13 > 0:04:16makes governing almost impossible. And the wider context is a Prime

0:04:16 > 0:04:19Minister who lost her overall majority a few months ago and

0:04:19 > 0:04:23actually that is the context of everything. When you are having to

0:04:23 > 0:04:25deal with the scandal of such unpredictability, where the

0:04:25 > 0:04:37terms are so imprecise, it is a "lunge", a resignation issue, to use

0:04:37 > 0:04:41that term, and nightmare. I don't think it is fatal. Scandals rarely

0:04:41 > 0:04:47bring down governments, but it makes governing for Theresa May a form of

0:04:47 > 0:04:50political health.Isabel Oakeshott, Damian Green has denied all

0:04:50 > 0:04:53allegations made against him, but there are more this morning. He is

0:04:53 > 0:04:59being investigated by the Cabinet Office at the moment. If Theresa May

0:04:59 > 0:05:02were to effectively lose her Deputy Prime Minister, has serious without

0:05:02 > 0:05:07the?I think very serious indeed. I think it is very significant and

0:05:07 > 0:05:11strange he was not defended in the Home Secretary Amber Rudd in that

0:05:11 > 0:05:15clip we saw today, she didn't say I am certain he will survive, and I am

0:05:15 > 0:05:19beginning to feel that Damian may not survive this. We don't know

0:05:19 > 0:05:23whether it is the last of the allegations that may come out in

0:05:23 > 0:05:27relation to him. It seems to me that the allegations were previously of a

0:05:27 > 0:05:33rather minor order, but this seems to have escalated. And I think one

0:05:33 > 0:05:36of the big problems for Theresa May, and there are the many at the

0:05:36 > 0:05:42moment, for months we have been saying that this Government has no

0:05:42 > 0:05:45bandwidth to do anything except Brexit and right now she can't even

0:05:45 > 0:05:49do Brexit. What is the point of it all?It is important to make clear

0:05:49 > 0:05:53not only that Damian Green denies all of these allegations, but the

0:05:53 > 0:05:59computer mentioned was in a shared office so there is no reason it

0:05:59 > 0:06:03would definitely be his # No guarantee it would definitely

0:06:03 > 0:06:15be his. But we have had two MPs on television this morning, Anna

0:06:15 > 0:06:20Soubry, saying he should stand down. There is an awful lot going on here.

0:06:20 > 0:06:26It is not just a pretty awful sexual harassment scandal. There are also

0:06:26 > 0:06:29without a doubt MPs, police officers, going about settling

0:06:29 > 0:06:34scores. For me I have to say for our pretty discredited police officer

0:06:34 > 0:06:38Bob Quick, to make accusations against serving Cabinet minister, to

0:06:38 > 0:06:46suggest he should go for extreme pornography on computers he may or

0:06:46 > 0:06:49may not have known, it may be extremely distasteful but it is

0:06:49 > 0:06:52alarming for democracy to have ex-police officers like this coming

0:06:52 > 0:06:56in and trying to play with democracy. Some politicians are also

0:06:56 > 0:06:59meeting claims, some for the right reasons to get the allegations out

0:06:59 > 0:07:02there and so on but others for their own agendas and all of this puts the

0:07:02 > 0:07:06Prime Minister in an unbelievably hard situation. I agree with Steve

0:07:06 > 0:07:10and Isabel, she desperately needs two show leadership in all this, but

0:07:10 > 0:07:13every way she could turn there are incredible downfalls, people blaming

0:07:13 > 0:07:17her for trying to get to the bottom of all this. It is very people who

0:07:17 > 0:07:22she is relying on for her leadership, the very Tory MPs the

0:07:22 > 0:07:25support she can't lose.It is not just the Tory party and of course

0:07:25 > 0:07:28Jeremy Corbyn will be making a speech later today where this will

0:07:28 > 0:07:32inevitably and there are accusations about how the senior leadership in

0:07:32 > 0:07:38the Labour Party have handled this. What about that situation?Yes, but

0:07:38 > 0:07:40the Government is much harder because you are meant to be doing

0:07:40 > 0:07:4410,000 other things at the same time. This is about a deregulated

0:07:44 > 0:07:48work environment. For all those who say, I hate the way Britain is too

0:07:48 > 0:07:50regulated, this is what happens in a deregulated work environment. The

0:07:50 > 0:08:00House of Commons has no HR or whatever, MPs, advisors, so, MPs

0:08:00 > 0:08:03actually don't have much power but they do have power over who the

0:08:03 > 0:08:07point and how to treat them. I think this is the way forward in terms of

0:08:07 > 0:08:10the practical outcome, but it is across the political spectrum.But

0:08:10 > 0:08:16it is unclear what it will be. Can the party sort this out?I'm not

0:08:16 > 0:08:19sure I entirely agree, Steve, you cannot regulate all human

0:08:19 > 0:08:23interaction and a lot of these stories have been about interactions

0:08:23 > 0:08:28between politicians and journalists alike, who have gone out for lunch,

0:08:28 > 0:08:33chosen to drink, presumably to create an informal atmosphere, and

0:08:33 > 0:08:38at what point is a step towards somebody to say goodbye, a peck on

0:08:38 > 0:08:43the cheek or whatever, a lunge? You can't regulate that sort of thing.

0:08:43 > 0:08:48Throughout the programme will come back to some of these things and how

0:08:48 > 0:08:49they might be regulated.

0:08:49 > 0:08:52Now, the Home Secretary has also today been talking

0:08:52 > 0:08:54about what she calls the "moral duty" of social media companies

0:08:54 > 0:08:57to stop child sexual exploitation, ahead of a meeting with her US

0:08:57 > 0:08:58counterparts this week.

0:08:58 > 0:09:01We're joined now by the Home Office minister Sarah Newton -

0:09:01 > 0:09:03she's in our Truro studio.

0:09:03 > 0:09:06Thanks very much for coming in to speak the first night. I want to

0:09:06 > 0:09:09talk to you about the Government's efforts to tackle child pornography,

0:09:09 > 0:09:13but let's pick up on some of the sexual harassment issues at

0:09:13 > 0:09:16Westminster first. Two of your parliamentary colleagues this

0:09:16 > 0:09:19morning saying they think the first Secretary of State Damian Green

0:09:19 > 0:09:26should step down whilst being investigated. Do you agree?Look, he

0:09:26 > 0:09:32has vigorously denied these accusations, and the Cabinet Office

0:09:32 > 0:09:37is investigating these accusations, so we do have processes for when

0:09:37 > 0:09:39ministers have these accusations made against them so they are

0:09:39 > 0:09:44properly investigated. And that is what is going on at the moment.Is

0:09:44 > 0:09:48that process people can be confident in? He is effectively being

0:09:48 > 0:09:54investigated by Jeremy Heywood, one of his colleagues.This is a tried

0:09:54 > 0:09:59and tested process that has stood the test of time, and it is

0:09:59 > 0:10:03important...Has it? Surely what we are learning is it has not stood the

0:10:03 > 0:10:06test of time and that in fact allegations like this have been

0:10:06 > 0:10:10swept under the carpet and ignored for years and years in Westminster,

0:10:10 > 0:10:14exactly what we are learning right now.I think you are conflating two

0:10:14 > 0:10:18things they are, and what we really do need to do is look at the whole

0:10:18 > 0:10:22range of allegations people have been making, and make sure

0:10:22 > 0:10:26Parliament is a safe place for people to work, a respectful

0:10:26 > 0:10:32environment for people who have been subjected to harassment or bullying

0:10:32 > 0:10:34or inappropriate behaviour, so that they feel confident to come forward

0:10:34 > 0:10:38knowing they will be listened to, that there will be an open and

0:10:38 > 0:10:41transparent and fair to everyone concerned process for getting to the

0:10:41 > 0:10:45bottom of it, and that is exactly what the Prime Minister and the

0:10:45 > 0:10:51Leader of the Cows have set out, Prime Minister's meeting with all

0:10:51 > 0:10:56the leaders of the parties tomorrow to set out a proper process so we

0:10:56 > 0:11:04can modernise the work environment at Westminster -- leader of the

0:11:04 > 0:11:07House have set out.You think Damian Green should remain in the Cabinet

0:11:07 > 0:11:13well being investigated?That will be down to Sir Jeremy Heywood. If he

0:11:13 > 0:11:17thinks the misdemeanours have a basis, that he should stand aside,

0:11:17 > 0:11:23that will be the recommendation. I will not second the inquiry on what

0:11:23 > 0:11:27Sir Jeremy Heywood finds.You were in the Whips' Office yourself for a

0:11:27 > 0:11:31year. And much has been said this week of the whips being in receipt

0:11:31 > 0:11:35of a lot of information about bad behaviour, and instead of reporting

0:11:35 > 0:11:39it to authorities they were using it as ammunition. Was that your

0:11:39 > 0:11:45experience?Absolutely not. I was at the Whips' Office up to 2015 and,

0:11:45 > 0:11:48yes, I heard about the rumours of a black spreadsheet, and I can

0:11:48 > 0:11:52certainly say I never saw such a thing. How I went about my business

0:11:52 > 0:11:57as a whip is really twofold. It is quite a technical job in many ways,

0:11:57 > 0:12:03about of the Government through the House, working with the House

0:12:03 > 0:12:06authorities, the opposition. Also... Did you ever hear rumours of these

0:12:06 > 0:12:15people's bad behaviour?Sorry?Did you ever hear rumours of MPs

0:12:15 > 0:12:18misbehaving, sexual harassment, allegations are that?If anybody had

0:12:18 > 0:12:22brought a complaint to me about the behaviour of one of the MPs who were

0:12:22 > 0:12:27in my flock, I would take that really seriously, but bull-mac, that

0:12:27 > 0:12:30didn't happen.You said nobody brought you a complaint. Did you

0:12:30 > 0:12:37hear rumours? -- but no, that didn't happen.About the members of my

0:12:37 > 0:12:40flock? Absolutely not.Is that the MPs you were specifically in charge

0:12:40 > 0:12:47of?I did not have that experience at all.Let's move on and talk about

0:12:47 > 0:12:50the Home Secretary's trip to Washington this week, where she will

0:12:50 > 0:12:54urge tech companies to go further and faster on online child abuse. We

0:12:54 > 0:12:58have heard a lot from this Government urging these companies to

0:12:58 > 0:13:02do something. One specific ideas of what they could do, do you have a

0:13:02 > 0:13:05clear idea of what you are asking from tech companies?Absolutely

0:13:05 > 0:13:11right. As you know, this horrendous crime of child sexual exploitation

0:13:11 > 0:13:16and grooming is constantly evolving as the opportunities for the

0:13:16 > 0:13:20perpetrators arise. They are now using live streaming, different

0:13:20 > 0:13:24sorts of platforms, which are largely controlled by the big

0:13:24 > 0:13:29companies in America. What we really want them to do is to step up and

0:13:29 > 0:13:34use their huge expertise, used the huge money they have got, to help

0:13:34 > 0:13:38find technological solutions to read their sites and rid the opportunity

0:13:38 > 0:13:41of these paedophiles to be able to groom young people. We need the

0:13:41 > 0:13:49politicians in America to exert pressure, as well as other

0:13:49 > 0:13:52companies, because these are global problems. We are not going to solve

0:13:52 > 0:13:56this problem in the UK alone. We have made a lot of progress, working

0:13:56 > 0:14:00with Facebook and other companies as well, but we really need to keep one

0:14:00 > 0:14:05step ahead of the technology, one step ahead of the perpetrators, who

0:14:05 > 0:14:10are using these opportunities to commit horrendous crimes.

0:14:10 > 0:14:14It was back in 2014 Theresa May for the Internet companies to do more in

0:14:14 > 0:14:18terms of child abuse online and we have not seen significant action,

0:14:18 > 0:14:21and it does not appear these kind of calls from the Government actually

0:14:21 > 0:14:27make difference. Well, at the moment we are seeing

0:14:27 > 0:14:32the police being able to make about 400 arrests per month, about 500

0:14:32 > 0:14:35children being safeguarded. The Government itself is investing a lot

0:14:35 > 0:14:42of money in new technology like the project Arachnid, and making sure

0:14:42 > 0:14:45the police have the specialist resources they need to go

0:14:45 > 0:14:48undercover, and absolutely find these perpetrators and bring them to

0:14:48 > 0:14:51justice, but we do need to constantly have the engagement and

0:14:51 > 0:14:55support of the companies themselves to invest in further technologies to

0:14:55 > 0:14:59prevent this from happening. As you say, we have made progress but we

0:14:59 > 0:15:03need to see yet more.Sarah Newton, thank you very much for speaking to

0:15:03 > 0:15:06us today.

0:15:06 > 0:15:07Michael Fallon's decision to resign this week,

0:15:07 > 0:15:12saying his past conduct with women fell short of the standard expected

0:15:12 > 0:15:15of the Armed Forces, led to something of a minor reshuffle.

0:15:15 > 0:15:17And the Prime Minister took Westminster by surprise

0:15:17 > 0:15:19when she announced his replacement, former Chief Whip and relative

0:15:19 > 0:15:21newcomer to the ministerial ranks, Gavin Williamson.

0:15:21 > 0:15:26Here he is speaking on the day of his appointment.

0:15:26 > 0:15:28It's an immense privilege to have been appointed Secretary

0:15:28 > 0:15:31of State for Defence, and what we need to be doing

0:15:31 > 0:15:33is continuing to focus on countering Daesh,

0:15:33 > 0:15:35making sure that our national security is at the forefront

0:15:35 > 0:15:38of everything that we do, and we have some of the world's

0:15:38 > 0:15:40greatest armed services, and it's such a privilege to be able

0:15:40 > 0:15:47to work with them.

0:15:47 > 0:15:49Gavin Williamson, who you saw there, arrives at the Ministry of Defence

0:15:49 > 0:15:52at a challenging time for UK defence.

0:15:52 > 0:15:53The Government has promised an above-inflation increase

0:15:53 > 0:15:55in spending every year but the Ministry of Defence

0:15:55 > 0:15:57is already committed to finding £20 billion of savings

0:15:57 > 0:15:59over the next ten years.

0:15:59 > 0:16:01The Cabinet Office is currently conducting a security review

0:16:01 > 0:16:04which will look at military capabilities and funding up to 2022,

0:16:04 > 0:16:05while there are continuing reports of shortages

0:16:05 > 0:16:10of manpower and equipment.

0:16:10 > 0:16:12And if Labour were to win power, questions persist over

0:16:12 > 0:16:15what a Jeremy Corbyn premiership would mean for defence budget

0:16:15 > 0:16:17and the traditional cornerstones of UK defence policy

0:16:17 > 0:16:18like Trident and Nato.

0:16:18 > 0:16:20Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:20 > 0:16:23secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:23 > 0:16:25Well we're joined now by the Shadow Defence

0:16:25 > 0:16:30secretary, Nia Griffith.

0:16:30 > 0:16:35Let's talk about defence spending first. Would Labour commit to the

0:16:35 > 0:16:39same thing this Government has which is an above inflation increase in

0:16:39 > 0:16:43spending every year?We've been absolutely clear about that. First

0:16:43 > 0:16:48and foremost we'd meet our commitment of spending at least 2%

0:16:48 > 0:16:55of GDP on defence as is our Nato commitment and we would match the

0:16:55 > 0:16:57Government's year-on-year 0.5% increase above inflation. This is

0:16:57 > 0:17:01really important. Labour's always had a good strong track record of

0:17:01 > 0:17:05spending on defence.Jeremy Corbyn seems to have a different view.

0:17:05 > 0:17:10Speaking at a protest in 2010 he said Labour wanted to fight all the

0:17:10 > 0:17:14cuts except those in the Armed Forces where we want to see a few

0:17:14 > 0:17:18more cuts taking place. He doesn't seem committed to defence spending?

0:17:18 > 0:17:23In the manifesto for this year's election, 2017, he and John

0:17:23 > 0:17:26McDonnell have been absolutely clear we support the exact words I've been

0:17:26 > 0:17:32using now, at least 2% of the spend of GDP spent on defence.Jeremy

0:17:32 > 0:17:37Corbyn's changed his mind on that? He's been very clear about that and

0:17:37 > 0:17:42it was in our manifesto this year. You criticised the Government on

0:17:42 > 0:17:47whether they meet their 2% commitment on defence. You saying

0:17:47 > 0:17:50they were fiddling the figures because they were including

0:17:50 > 0:17:55pensions. You would strip that out and snake sure there's 2% spending

0:17:55 > 0:17:59on defence which doesn't include pensions?Technically, the

0:17:59 > 0:18:01Government would argue you are allowed to include pensions by the

0:18:01 > 0:18:07Nato rules. But we've been very clear, really, when you're talking

0:18:07 > 0:18:11about defence spending it should mean defence. When you look at the

0:18:11 > 0:18:16last year of the Labour Government we spent 2.5% GDP on defence. We are

0:18:16 > 0:18:21very much committed to looking at what we need in our defence budget

0:18:21 > 0:18:26and looking to the problems they have now where they can't meet the

0:18:26 > 0:18:30commitments they've made.You would sprip pensions out of those figures.

0:18:30 > 0:18:36In order to live up to these commitments you have to find an

0:18:36 > 0:18:40extra billion for the defence budgets because we're not

0:18:40 > 0:18:43calculating pensions anymore?John McDonnell is well aware of what they

0:18:43 > 0:18:48are doing. Putting in the conflict resolution money which Gordon Brown

0:18:48 > 0:18:53kept separate. He is well aware of the figures and the difficulties. We

0:18:53 > 0:18:57are certainly very committed to a defence budget that really does make

0:18:57 > 0:19:02a difference.I'm not clear whether you're telling me it will be 2% 69

0:19:02 > 0:19:08spending, excluding pensions?We want it to be 2% of GDP as in the

0:19:08 > 0:19:12way Labour always calculate it had up until 2010, not including

0:19:12 > 0:19:16pensions.A significant increase in military spending?We are talking

0:19:16 > 0:19:21about making sure the spending we need is there because, at the

0:19:21 > 0:19:24current situation, we have with the current Government, they are

0:19:24 > 0:19:29overstretched. Even the very caution National Audit Office says they are

0:19:29 > 0:19:35at immense risk of not being able to meet the expenditure commitment the

0:19:35 > 0:19:40they have made. Others talk about a black hole. You mentioned it that

0:19:40 > 0:19:47£20 billion. There is a real issue we have to address.To you know what

0:19:47 > 0:19:51it will cost, how muchedingsal funds will have to be found?We have to

0:19:51 > 0:19:57rook at what are the needs at the time as well as the facts we want to

0:19:57 > 0:20:01make that 2% commitment not including things which have just

0:20:01 > 0:20:04been brushed in now by the Conservative Government.Let's move

0:20:04 > 0:20:11on to a different aspect of defence. There is a treaty banning nuclear

0:20:11 > 0:20:14weapons opened at the UN for signatories. 122 countries have

0:20:14 > 0:20:20already signed it. Would an incoming Labour Government sign that treaty?

0:20:20 > 0:20:23The important point here is there was an Is inned opportunity for

0:20:23 > 0:20:28there to be observers from the UK. There should have been at that

0:20:28 > 0:20:33treaty talks.That doesn't change the calculation whether or not an

0:20:33 > 0:20:40incoming Labour Government would sign that treaty?We are committed

0:20:40 > 0:20:45to a strong multi-lateral disarming programme. That's what we've seen

0:20:45 > 0:20:48missing.This is a multilateral approach to try to get rid of

0:20:48 > 0:20:53nuclear weapons. What you say you want. Would a Labour Government sign

0:20:53 > 0:20:57that treaty?You we have to look at how you go about things. We need toe

0:20:57 > 0:21:01somebody clear we want to de-escalate tensions across the

0:21:01 > 0:21:06world. Work with other nuclear partners to help stop the

0:21:06 > 0:21:10proliferation of nuclear weapons. We want to work with those countries

0:21:10 > 0:21:15who feel very strongly about the treaty so we can work together. We

0:21:15 > 0:21:21have to do that in a multilateral framework.This is a multi-lateral

0:21:21 > 0:21:26disarmament framework. Under the auspice Is of the UN disto see how

0:21:26 > 0:21:29else it could be organised. This is a great opportunity for you, who

0:21:29 > 0:21:34have been a lifelong campaigner for disarmament.ment Labour Government

0:21:34 > 0:21:40will be the first nuclear power to do so, sign it and lead the way.We

0:21:40 > 0:21:45need to use our position to be responsible and call for responsible

0:21:45 > 0:21:48multi-lateral disarmamentment there was progress made on this in the

0:21:48 > 0:21:51eighties and nineties with considerable amount of are heads put

0:21:51 > 0:21:55to one side and destroyed. We need to get back on the front foot there.

0:21:55 > 0:21:58I don't see any presence by the UK Government at the moment on that

0:21:58 > 0:22:03aagain da. It is not helpful for the nukes leer nations to be separated

0:22:03 > 0:22:09from the non-nuclear nation in the these debates.That's why I don't

0:22:09 > 0:22:13understand why you're not taking the opportunity to say a Labour

0:22:13 > 0:22:17Government would Take The Stand.We should wok together and we should

0:22:17 > 0:22:22use our position as a nuclear power to work for a multilateral

0:22:22 > 0:22:26disarmament programme.You were very clear in your manifesto that the

0:22:26 > 0:22:30Labour Party would keep Trident for the meantime.Abs will yously.We

0:22:30 > 0:22:33know throughout his life, Jeremy Corbyn's long wanted to get rid of

0:22:33 > 0:22:40it. He signed up to the manifesto saying Trident would stay. Has he

0:22:40 > 0:22:45changed his minds?The important thing is that was a manifesto

0:22:45 > 0:22:49Jeremy, John McDonnell's agreed to. We stood on it in 2017 because that

0:22:49 > 0:22:54is the Labour Party position. Absolutely. I'm asking if the Labour

0:22:54 > 0:22:57Leader really believes in that position?He believes in democracy

0:22:57 > 0:23:00in the party. That is the Labour Party position. I don't see that

0:23:00 > 0:23:04position changing at all. He has said very clearly that he accepts

0:23:04 > 0:23:08that is our Labour Party position. And that is the manifesto we've

0:23:08 > 0:23:13stood on and will continue to stand on.I'll need to ask questions about

0:23:13 > 0:23:18sexual harassment in Westminster. It is as much as inissue for the Labour

0:23:18 > 0:23:22Party as the Conservative. It was not clear listening to Dawn Butler,

0:23:22 > 0:23:25your colleague on The Andrew Marr Show this morning, she was asked

0:23:25 > 0:23:29whether or not the leadership knew about allegations by Kelvin Hopkins.

0:23:29 > 0:23:34Do you know?I absolutely do not know at this moment in time. That's

0:23:34 > 0:23:36why there has to be an investigation. It is extremely

0:23:36 > 0:23:41important to find out what the allegations were, exactly what

0:23:41 > 0:23:46happened, who was told and who told what to whom. Then we will be in a

0:23:46 > 0:23:50position to see what the situation is. In the meantime, Kelvin Hopkins

0:23:50 > 0:23:57has been suspended which is the cricket thing to do.Rosie Winterton

0:23:57 > 0:24:02has been outspoken about what she let the leadership know. If it is

0:24:02 > 0:24:05the case the leadership did know about these allegations should he

0:24:05 > 0:24:09have been put into the Shadow Cabinet?The real question is who

0:24:09 > 0:24:15did know what when.But what I'm asking you is...I am anot going to

0:24:15 > 0:24:20speculate whether there was an if or whatever. We need to know how that

0:24:20 > 0:24:24information was transmitted. Was it put in writing. What it made clear,

0:24:24 > 0:24:28who was told what, when. Until we have a full investigation it would

0:24:28 > 0:24:32be inappropriate to comment. What is absolute lie clear, we need to get

0:24:32 > 0:24:36this right for the future. We must have proper procedures so we deal

0:24:36 > 0:24:41with incidents as and when they occur. And we deal with them

0:24:41 > 0:24:44prepperly in a way which gets to the bottom of the issue and deals with

0:24:44 > 0:24:49it properly.Why should anyone have confidence the Labour Party will

0:24:49 > 0:24:53treat issues that seriously when, firstly there's a question whether

0:24:53 > 0:24:58they knew about Kelvin hop kips and others have been dissuaded from

0:24:58 > 0:25:03making complaints. Knots just Bex Bailey. Monica Lennon said when she

0:25:03 > 0:25:07was harassed at a party senior figures in the Labour Party told her

0:25:07 > 0:25:14it was her own fault. It seems as if there hasn't been a culture within

0:25:14 > 0:25:20Labour to make a complaint.That's why we're having a thorough review

0:25:20 > 0:25:24of procedures. We brought in new procedures in July. We need to

0:25:24 > 0:25:30ensure there's a proper helpline available. We are appointing an

0:25:30 > 0:25:32independent organisation which will deal with allegations first-hand so

0:25:32 > 0:25:36nobody has to go to somebody they think might know other people, be

0:25:36 > 0:25:41friends with other people. They can go somewhere completely confidential

0:25:41 > 0:25:46and private. These are often things you can't want to tell your cross

0:25:46 > 0:25:50friends about. We will appoint that organisation and make sure people

0:25:50 > 0:25:55can go there and access to it is made widely known. It is very, very

0:25:55 > 0:25:58important when people come into a job, they know if anything does

0:25:58 > 0:26:02happen, they will be able to complain. Whether they are ordinary

0:26:02 > 0:26:08party members or working in Westminster.Thank you for talking

0:26:08 > 0:26:08to us

0:26:08 > 0:26:10For Thank you for talking to us some

0:26:10 > 0:26:12on the left of politics,

0:26:12 > 0:26:14this weekend wasn't just a chance

0:26:14 > 0:26:16to mark the anniversary of the failed gunpowder

0:26:16 > 0:26:18plot here in Britain, but also events in Russia 100 years

0:26:18 > 0:26:21ago, when Bolshevik revolutionaries led by Lenin seized power

0:26:21 > 0:26:23and ushered in seven decades of Communist rule.

0:26:23 > 0:26:24For critics, that's something to regret, not celebrate.

0:26:24 > 0:26:26Elizabeth Glinka went to one event in London to find out more.

0:26:31 > 0:26:33The 7th November 1917.

0:26:33 > 0:26:37Red Guards under the leadership of Vladimir Lenin begin to occupy

0:26:37 > 0:26:42Government buildings in Petrograd.

0:26:42 > 0:26:44This uprising, known popularly as Red October

0:26:44 > 0:26:47because of the difference in the Gregorian calendar,

0:26:47 > 0:26:50was, in fact, a coup.

0:26:50 > 0:26:54The winds of socialist change had been blowing for some time.

0:26:54 > 0:26:59The Tsars had resisted reform and millions toiled in a state

0:26:59 > 0:27:01of almost medieval surfdom.

0:27:01 > 0:27:05Then war.

0:27:05 > 0:27:10Nearly two million Russians would die.

0:27:10 > 0:27:15The revolution had really begun nine months earlier in February 1917.

0:27:15 > 0:27:21The world's first socialist republic was declared.

0:27:21 > 0:27:24October, well that was the Bolsheviks

0:27:24 > 0:27:28asserting their authority.

0:27:30 > 0:27:33A hundred years on, as this event at the TUC shows,

0:27:33 > 0:27:36there's still plenty of people who want to remember and even

0:27:36 > 0:27:40celebrate those momentous events.

0:27:40 > 0:27:42Mainly as an event in history,

0:27:42 > 0:27:45this is an example of historical development in action,

0:27:45 > 0:27:49the ability of people to club together and be able to affect

0:27:49 > 0:27:50the discourse of history.

0:27:50 > 0:27:53It was people's first attempt at trying to build socialism.

0:27:53 > 0:27:56Although there were many terrible things that happened,

0:27:56 > 0:27:58I think we have to try and draw from experience.

0:27:58 > 0:28:01Jeremy Corbyn's close friend and adviser, Andrew Murray,

0:28:01 > 0:28:04was chairing the opening session.

0:28:04 > 0:28:07He didn't want to talk to us but we did manage to speak

0:28:07 > 0:28:13to the daughter of one of the most famous Communists of all time.

0:28:13 > 0:28:16TRANSLATION:It's an historic moment

0:28:16 > 0:28:19which opened up possibilities for further changes

0:28:19 > 0:28:21and allowed other people to strive for a different world.

0:28:21 > 0:28:25A world, which it seems, some are still keen to push for.

0:28:25 > 0:28:27We're growing, so there is obviously a positive reflection.

0:28:27 > 0:28:29There is a lot of negative propaganda that comes

0:28:29 > 0:28:31from the Cold War period.

0:28:31 > 0:28:33It is harder to talk to older people maybe.

0:28:33 > 0:28:35But younger people are quite receptive.

0:28:35 > 0:28:38The events and discussions taking place here today cover a whole range

0:28:38 > 0:28:41of topics from women's rights to the Third World

0:28:41 > 0:28:44and the impact on British socialism.

0:28:44 > 0:28:48But there's much less discussion of the Russian Civil War,

0:28:48 > 0:28:51the purges and the political repression that would come later.

0:28:51 > 0:28:54We wanted to have this conference

0:28:54 > 0:28:57because we wanted to show it in a positive light.

0:28:57 > 0:29:01Whatever one's view of what happened to the Soviet Union subsequently

0:29:01 > 0:29:05the fact is it is important to understand the process

0:29:05 > 0:29:08of revolutionary change for its own sake.

0:29:09 > 0:29:13Red October would usher in 70 years of communism.

0:29:13 > 0:29:16The proletarite would rise, find respect and security.

0:29:16 > 0:29:20But the suppression of the peoples of Eastern Europe, the forced labour

0:29:20 > 0:29:24camps and the murder of hundreds of thousands, if not millions

0:29:24 > 0:29:28of people, make it difficult for many to see that revolution

0:29:28 > 0:29:32as something to celebrate.

0:29:33 > 0:29:35That was Elizabeth Glinka reporting.

0:29:35 > 0:29:37So is the centenary of the Russian Revolution a cause

0:29:37 > 0:29:39for celebration, or regret?

0:29:39 > 0:29:41Well, to discuss this I'm joined by former Labour

0:29:41 > 0:29:47and Respect MP George Galloway, and the journalist Peter Hitchens.

0:29:47 > 0:29:51Good morning. Let me start with you George Galloway. Is the October

0:29:51 > 0:29:56revolution a cause for celebration? With the, if not for the October

0:29:56 > 0:30:00revolution, we'd been conducting this interview in German. Though the

0:30:00 > 0:30:03truth is this interview wouldn't be taking place and we probably

0:30:03 > 0:30:11wouldn't be alive for a variety of reasons. The Soviet Union broke the

0:30:11 > 0:30:14back of Hitler, as Mr Churchill often owe pined in Parliament and

0:30:14 > 0:30:22elsewhere. If not for the Soviet Union, Hitler would have ruled. And

0:30:22 > 0:30:27his successorsness, perhaps until now, from Vladivostok all the way to

0:30:27 > 0:30:31Portugal.You say we wouldn't be able to have this discussion. In the

0:30:31 > 0:30:34former Soviet Union we couldn't have this office either?That's also

0:30:34 > 0:30:42true. But even the...George will be able to say, that of course.Even

0:30:42 > 0:30:46the sun has spots on its face as they used to say in the Soviet

0:30:46 > 0:30:55Union. There is no doubt tremendous abrasions, big crimes, a lot of

0:30:55 > 0:31:05suffering but, if not for the transformation, then the Soviet

0:31:05 > 0:31:12Union, Russia's GDP increased from 1930 to 190 and the Nazi occupation.

0:31:12 > 0:31:19And the strength that defeated Hitlerism would not have been there.

0:31:19 > 0:31:22Peter Hitchens, does it offend you there are people celebrating 100

0:31:22 > 0:31:28years since the Russian Revolution? Offend? No, but in the Soviet Union,

0:31:28 > 0:31:33in which I lived, you would not have been able to say it was set up by a

0:31:33 > 0:31:35cynical bitch, almost bloodless, but engineered by the German Imperial

0:31:35 > 0:31:52Government using -- a cynical putsch, almost bloodless. That this

0:31:52 > 0:31:58was the inauguration of an immensely long period of repression,

0:31:58 > 0:32:02brutality, secret police, concentration camps and lies, which

0:32:02 > 0:32:06I am likely to have seen come to an end in my lifetime, and I cannot see

0:32:06 > 0:32:09why anybody looking at that disastrous country where so much

0:32:09 > 0:32:11misery was needlessly imposed on so many people for so long could

0:32:11 > 0:32:15possibly celebrate the beginning of it, which was completely avoidable,

0:32:15 > 0:32:21and as I say was truly the result of the cynical foreign policy and

0:32:21 > 0:32:23intelligence operations of the Imperial German Government is trying

0:32:23 > 0:32:27to save it skin...But everyone including George Galloway

0:32:27 > 0:32:32acknowledges the tyranny and terror that followed.He doesn't. He gives

0:32:32 > 0:32:35statistics about GDP but fails to mention the people murdered in

0:32:35 > 0:32:42labour

0:32:42 > 0:32:48camp... He was of course formerly a Trotskyite and sung the praises of

0:32:48 > 0:32:52Lenin, which I have not done and neither have I done today. I have

0:32:52 > 0:32:56never been a Communist, unlike Peter Hitchens, but I do acknowledge and

0:32:56 > 0:33:01celebrate that an entirely different world opened up as a result of the

0:33:01 > 0:33:05events in October 19 17. China, you have just seen their party congress,

0:33:05 > 0:33:10decorated with the iconography of the Bolshevik Revolution, and China

0:33:10 > 0:33:13is the most powerful, or soon will be the most powerful country on the

0:33:13 > 0:33:18earth.With one of the most repressive government?I don't think

0:33:18 > 0:33:24that is true. There is repression in China, but...Enormous repression in

0:33:24 > 0:33:28China! How can you possibly argue there is an?China has taken more

0:33:28 > 0:33:33people out of poverty in the last 30 years than any country, resume,

0:33:33 > 0:33:38system, ever has -- how can you possibly argue there is not?All

0:33:38 > 0:33:42despots always argue, trying to distract your attention from the

0:33:42 > 0:33:45mountains of skulls behind them, their supposed economic success,

0:33:45 > 0:33:49which generally does not turn out to be as great as claimed. The Soviet

0:33:49 > 0:33:54Union was an enormous pile of rust by the time I lived there and was a

0:33:54 > 0:33:58complete catastrophe.Yes, that is why it fell down. But we are talking

0:33:58 > 0:34:03about the Revolution 100 years ago. Is it possible to separate the two

0:34:03 > 0:34:07events? A popular overthrowing of a government is perhaps different from

0:34:07 > 0:34:12the tyranny and terror that followed.It was not a popular

0:34:12 > 0:34:16overthrow. You sure this Eisenstein propaganda as if it were fact. What

0:34:16 > 0:34:21we see was a film made afterwards. What actually happened was a putsch

0:34:21 > 0:34:30in the middle of the night in which hardly anybody... Nobody has even

0:34:30 > 0:34:37mentioned...That German connection, a rather more important...Nobody

0:34:37 > 0:34:39has even mentioned during this year until now that there was a Russian

0:34:39 > 0:34:45Revolution. There were two. The first one was a genuine uprising,

0:34:45 > 0:34:48overthrowing the old regime, and I think we can all be glad of it. The

0:34:48 > 0:34:55second one was a cynical for -- foreign financed putsch and it does

0:34:55 > 0:34:58not deserve to be spoken out.Is that true, and Menshevik revolution

0:34:58 > 0:35:04would have done better than a Bolshevik one?It is not my business

0:35:04 > 0:35:10and entirely counterfactual fiction, if I may...Unlike how you open this

0:35:10 > 0:35:14discussion.That is the most important thing. If not for the

0:35:14 > 0:35:21Soviet Union, we wouldn't be here. Hetmyer might still, and most of the

0:35:21 > 0:35:26world, with its allies -- Adolph Hitler might have won and they make,

0:35:26 > 0:35:31and most of the world...The effect of Bolshevism and coming is on

0:35:31 > 0:35:34Europe was colossal.Let's bring it all a little bit more up-to-date.

0:35:34 > 0:35:40You were saying earlier you have never been a Leninist, although

0:35:40 > 0:35:46Peter Hitchens confesses he was at one time.Absolutely was a

0:35:46 > 0:35:53Trotskyist, and now nor the complete folly of that particular political

0:35:53 > 0:35:57disposition.John McDonnell in the Labour Party openly says he is a

0:35:57 > 0:36:02Trotskyist, a Leninist, is that a problem for the Labour Party?I

0:36:02 > 0:36:05would have thought, arts would be more respected now than he has been

0:36:05 > 0:36:11for quite some time as capitalism is collapsing around our ears. From

0:36:11 > 0:36:172008 the Economist itself, the bible of capitalism, began to resurrect

0:36:17 > 0:36:22Marxist economics and analysis, so I really don't think it is. Jeremy

0:36:22 > 0:36:31Corbyn is not a Marxist. It only took them four years, 54...It is

0:36:31 > 0:36:39not that.I think we are moving into an era where Governments like the

0:36:39 > 0:36:43Chinese Government are making plans, and are succeeding in implementing

0:36:43 > 0:36:49them, and thus transforming their position. China in 1949, and I don't

0:36:49 > 0:36:52need to tell you, was just about the most backward place you could

0:36:52 > 0:36:59possibly imagine. And from 1949 to now it has sold transforms that it

0:36:59 > 0:37:07is the world's biggest economy...We are in danger of getting sidetracked

0:37:07 > 0:37:12by China here.I have to put this point in. If China was backward in

0:37:12 > 0:37:161949 it was far more backward by the time Mao Zedong finished his great

0:37:16 > 0:37:18leap forward and starved millions of people

0:37:18 > 0:37:18leap forward and starved millions of leap forward and starved millions of

0:37:18 > 0:37:24people to death in the period of economic lunacy. You just don't

0:37:24 > 0:37:27notice...What George was saying they are, and a sense certainly

0:37:27 > 0:37:31amongst younger voters in this country and others, where they are

0:37:31 > 0:37:33turning against capitalism, they don't think it has worked or

0:37:33 > 0:37:37delivered for them, that this kind of Marxist Leninist philosophy is

0:37:37 > 0:37:41becoming more popular?Let's hope not. The fact the current system is

0:37:41 > 0:37:47failing does not seem to recommend the Soviet system, which is

0:37:47 > 0:37:50demonstrably a failure, and even its own leaders admitted it failed and

0:37:50 > 0:37:54that is why they tried to reform it in the period I was there and why it

0:37:54 > 0:37:57collapsed. Whatever you might want to conclude from examining our

0:37:57 > 0:38:00position, the Soviet alternative is not the thing you want the dues.

0:38:00 > 0:38:05This was a long period of disaster, and I remember at the end of it

0:38:05 > 0:38:11watching in Moscow said a film which has never been shown here, and the

0:38:11 > 0:38:14title means approximately we can't go on living like this, and for the

0:38:14 > 0:38:19first time, the politburo told the truth about what life was like in

0:38:19 > 0:38:22the dreadful place and everyone in that cinema was weeping because

0:38:22 > 0:38:25finally they saw the truth being told about the dreadful

0:38:25 > 0:38:29anti-civilisation in which they had been taught to live for so long. The

0:38:29 > 0:38:32idea we should celebrate it revive it seems to me to be verging on the

0:38:32 > 0:38:38obscene.George, one interesting question about this of course,

0:38:38 > 0:38:41whilst there are events going on in London and across the UK to mark

0:38:41 > 0:38:44this centenary, it is not being celebrated in Russia.I was in

0:38:44 > 0:38:48Russia a couple of weeks ago. There is a big debate about whether it

0:38:48 > 0:38:53ought to be, and many people are celebrating it...Vladimir Putin is

0:38:53 > 0:38:56not. He would want to ignore it.But the Communist Party is the second

0:38:56 > 0:39:04biggest party in Russia. And it is the ruling party in China, which,

0:39:04 > 0:39:07with respect, is not a separate thing, because China is continuing

0:39:07 > 0:39:10the Russian Revolution and doing rather better at it than the

0:39:10 > 0:39:16Russians did, but there are many people, particularly older, that is

0:39:16 > 0:39:22true, who think that the era of the Soviet Union was better than the

0:39:22 > 0:39:26very cold period of capitalism that succeeded it. So half the world

0:39:26 > 0:39:34followed for a time the red flag, the red banner of Leninism. No one

0:39:34 > 0:39:40will do so again. Leninism of the kind that Peter used to proselytise

0:39:40 > 0:39:45is certainly not coming back, but Marxism is going to live on.Let's

0:39:45 > 0:39:49hope not.Thank you both, gentlemen, for coming on to speak about that.

0:39:49 > 0:39:50It's coming up to 11.40am.

0:39:50 > 0:39:51You're watching the Sunday Politics.

0:39:51 > 0:39:55Coming up on the programme:

0:39:55 > 0:39:58We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations.

0:39:58 > 0:40:00We've taken the moodbox to where else but bonfire night celebrations?

0:40:00 > 0:40:03It wasn't just Westminster that had the fireworks this week.

0:40:03 > 0:40:05We're asking people in Guildford in Surrey,

0:40:13 > 0:40:17Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics in Northern Ireland.

0:40:17 > 0:40:22With no deal between the DUP and Sinn Fein and a call for direct

0:40:22 > 0:40:24rule ministers to be appointed within weeks,

0:40:24 > 0:40:25is devolution about to disappear?

0:40:25 > 0:40:27We'll hear from the Shadow Secretary of State, Owen Smith,

0:40:27 > 0:40:30and we'll get the thoughts of the Green Party leader,

0:40:30 > 0:40:32Steven Agnew, Gerry Carroll from People Before Profit

0:40:32 > 0:40:36and the Independent MLA, Claire Sugden.

0:40:36 > 0:40:38And with their thoughts on that and more, my guests

0:40:38 > 0:40:40of the day are Allison Morris from the Irish News

0:40:40 > 0:40:45and the News Letter's Sam McBride.

0:40:48 > 0:40:50The DUP has called for direct rule Ministers to be

0:40:50 > 0:40:52in place within weeks.

0:40:52 > 0:40:56Mr Dodds told the Inside Politics programme on Radio Ulster that

0:40:56 > 0:40:57Ministers from London could make decisions in conjunction

0:40:57 > 0:41:00with the parties at Stormont.

0:41:00 > 0:41:05The Shadow Secretary of State, Owen Smith, said the focus needs

0:41:05 > 0:41:08to be on getting a successful outcome to the negotiations before

0:41:08 > 0:41:11moving to appoint London Ministers and Mr Smith joins me now

0:41:11 > 0:41:18from our Cardiff studio.

0:41:18 > 0:41:19Thank you for joining us.

0:41:19 > 0:41:22What is your understanding of where the talks process is at the moment?

0:41:22 > 0:41:25On Thursday night Gregory Campbell said there was no reason for talks

0:41:25 > 0:41:30not to happen again on Friday - but John O'Dowd said this phase

0:41:30 > 0:41:34of the process is over because the budget.

0:41:34 > 0:41:39I think the secretary of state was clear. That is going to be a budget

0:41:39 > 0:41:43in ten days. There is also an opportunity for the parties to

0:41:43 > 0:41:48continue talking. He said the parties where continuing to talk on

0:41:48 > 0:41:52Thursday and Friday last week. I think where we are is there is one

0:41:52 > 0:41:57last season over the next couple of months to try and get things back up

0:41:57 > 0:42:01and running. There is going to be a parallel process where there is

0:42:01 > 0:42:07going to be a budget. Otherwise, the money for Northern Ireland.You'd

0:42:07 > 0:42:15want to see James Brooke and Shire painting direct rule ministers?I

0:42:15 > 0:42:18think he should give it until Christmas. I talked about the new

0:42:18 > 0:42:25year putting in ministers is going to be inevitable. You can afford to

0:42:25 > 0:42:29have one last crack at trying to get the parties to come back together in

0:42:29 > 0:42:34the next couple of months, unless he decides, and he is closer to this,

0:42:34 > 0:42:35unless you

0:42:35 > 0:42:37unless you decide the parties have decided themselves and they are not

0:42:37 > 0:42:43going to do a deal. In which case, he needs to cockpit sooner.

0:42:43 > 0:42:49Interesting that the DUP seems to want it sooner rather than later.

0:42:49 > 0:42:52Yes, that indicates perhaps that they cannot do a deal or they think

0:42:52 > 0:42:59the other side is not prepared to do a deal. I suspect, both parties in

0:42:59 > 0:43:04the negotiation see more risks than benefits of getting back in

0:43:04 > 0:43:09partnership together and may have decided a period of direct rule is

0:43:09 > 0:43:15what they are prepared to accept. In that case, the secretary of state

0:43:15 > 0:43:19needs to recognise that and the Government needs to note that is his

0:43:19 > 0:43:29opinion and we will see direct rule. He will -- it will be harder to get

0:43:29 > 0:43:34them back together.What do you think of Nigel Dodds's thoughts that

0:43:34 > 0:43:39the good work in conjunction with the Stormont parties? How would that

0:43:39 > 0:43:45work, in your view?My understanding is James has been talking to the

0:43:45 > 0:43:49parties about that. I do know some of the smaller parties have been

0:43:49 > 0:43:54discussing that with him. There are models have been used before. At the

0:43:54 > 0:43:58beginning of the Welsh Assembly, there was a shadow Assembly. The did

0:43:58 > 0:44:02not have the full devolution but an Assembly grouping to which people

0:44:02 > 0:44:07were collected and these good and wise decisions being taken by

0:44:07 > 0:44:11ministers. It has got to be something around that sort of area

0:44:11 > 0:44:17that they are discussing, whether that is being back scrutiny

0:44:17 > 0:44:21committees, having Assembly is set in a binary session. I suspect that

0:44:21 > 0:44:30is less likely. Some form of hybrid situation might be advisable and

0:44:30 > 0:44:34better than simply going to direct rule because it makes it easier

0:44:34 > 0:44:38perhaps for the parties to continue talking and for us to revive

0:44:38 > 0:44:46devolution proper.You floated the idea of some kind of scrutiny

0:44:46 > 0:44:52Assembly. Do you have any sense to whether the parties think that is a

0:44:52 > 0:44:56good idea? That, surely, is an admission that devolution as we have

0:44:56 > 0:45:02known it, has not worked.Yes, it would be the conference league, in

0:45:02 > 0:45:07comparison. It would be a big step backwards. It is something I have

0:45:07 > 0:45:11raised and I have raised it knowing that the parties are talking about

0:45:11 > 0:45:15it with the secretary of state and it is something that has possibly

0:45:15 > 0:45:20been talked about in the talks. The truth is, this is out there and

0:45:20 > 0:45:22being discussed between the governments and the Secretary of

0:45:22 > 0:45:26State and is something I think is likely to be pushed for more broadly

0:45:26 > 0:45:30over the next couple of weeks. Another couple of things to

0:45:30 > 0:45:36consider, we know the Alliance party has called for an external

0:45:36 > 0:45:41negotiator to push the process forward. Is that worth giving

0:45:41 > 0:45:45consideration to?Yes, that is something I mentioned last week to

0:45:45 > 0:45:52be secretary of state. I do not know why he has not been in favour. Under

0:45:52 > 0:46:03the last Labour Government, notable incidents of outside negotiators

0:46:03 > 0:46:08bringing things forward. It did work on occasion. The fresh pair of eyes

0:46:08 > 0:46:13can be a helpful thing to bring things to be. If people think the

0:46:13 > 0:46:15Government are not facilitating things efficiently, or are not

0:46:15 > 0:46:22making things easier, and outside Audie meet the where to look for

0:46:22 > 0:46:28progress.-- and outside body. The secretary of state is going to seek

0:46:28 > 0:46:34outside advice in terms of salaries. Do you welcome that? You are not is

0:46:34 > 0:46:38a port of drastic action being taken in the short time? This delay shows

0:46:38 > 0:46:45that drastic action does not work. John Reid cut salaries in 2002 and

0:46:45 > 0:46:52they work at again in 2003 and again in 2005. It is hardly the quick fix

0:46:52 > 0:46:57that we sometimes imagine it might be. Getting outside advice and

0:46:57 > 0:47:02looking at what point he would make that decision is well worth him

0:47:02 > 0:47:08doing. Clearly, if you have a role for the Assembly that is short of

0:47:08 > 0:47:17full scale devolution, support of parties is something to look at. As

0:47:17 > 0:47:23it will always be popular to cut any politician's salary, it is a side

0:47:23 > 0:47:27bar issue versus the really big question we have got hanging over

0:47:27 > 0:47:32the future of services in Northern Ireland, moral questions, really

0:47:32 > 0:47:43pressing stuff that should be devolved ministers. --. -- devolved

0:47:43 > 0:47:50Minister's response ability.

0:47:50 > 0:47:57Weird you think we are? The DUP says it could continue and they could

0:47:57 > 0:48:00have direct rule ministers appointed. Sinn Fein seem to be

0:48:00 > 0:48:06suggesting it is dead in the water. I think Sinn Fein's position is

0:48:06 > 0:48:11over... What does that mean? Both of those parties want to get the party

0:48:11 > 0:48:15conferences out of the way. That is the thing that is for most on their

0:48:15 > 0:48:19mind. Neither of them is going to go into the party conference not having

0:48:19 > 0:48:24done a U-turn. I think even the Secretary of State has two recognise

0:48:24 > 0:48:27they have to let them get that out of the way first and eighth period

0:48:27 > 0:48:32of talks after that. An Smith is right, he needs to bring in an

0:48:32 > 0:48:41independent person. -- Owen Smith. No conclusion by Christmas and then

0:48:41 > 0:48:44direct rule ministers by January, you are prolonging the process

0:48:44 > 0:48:49unless there is structure in place. Do you agree with that timescale? I

0:48:49 > 0:48:54wonder what you make of what the parties think they are actually

0:48:54 > 0:48:58discussing. Again, on Thursday night they could not seem to agree on what

0:48:58 > 0:49:03the process was dealing with.I thought Thursday's night programme

0:49:03 > 0:49:07was fascinating. It was the first time that Gregory Campbell was open

0:49:07 > 0:49:11to compromise any TVs juju. Is it a case you're not going to get

0:49:11 > 0:49:18everything you want and he said, yes. -- TVs juju. Compromise, why

0:49:18 > 0:49:24would we compromise on what are compromising. That begs the

0:49:24 > 0:49:29question, what on earth are Sinn Fein negotiating? If they have

0:49:29 > 0:49:33decided there is nothing to compromise, what have they been

0:49:33 > 0:49:37spending months talking to them about? Clearly, that is not the

0:49:37 > 0:49:42case. The are both willing to move but there is no transparency to the

0:49:42 > 0:49:49public.Why do they want direct rule so quickly?We have massive

0:49:49 > 0:49:54influence at Westminster, the DUP. It also moves on this 1 million

0:49:54 > 0:50:01pounds. Also, it is a recognition of what people in the streets and

0:50:01 > 0:50:03villages across Northern Ireland are saying, if there is no one in

0:50:03 > 0:50:08charge, we need someone in charge. It was significant that Owen Smith

0:50:08 > 0:50:12is moving to put pressure on the secretary of state to see around

0:50:12 > 0:50:15Christmas time there needs to be ministers in place.As any

0:50:15 > 0:50:20circumstance that you think Sinn Fein would sign up to a shadow

0:50:20 > 0:50:31scrutiny Assembly?The model... Foxhall conference is what an Smith

0:50:31 > 0:50:36would call it.It is like a large City Council and to pay that money

0:50:36 > 0:50:39for people to be glorified councillors would be a waste of

0:50:39 > 0:50:44money.I will speak to you again later. Thank you for now.

0:50:44 > 0:50:46As we know very well, the negotiations have been primarily

0:50:46 > 0:50:49between the DUP and Sinn Fein, with the other main parties left

0:50:49 > 0:50:52to watch from the sidelines - and standing behind them trying

0:50:52 > 0:50:55to get a glimpse of the action are the even smaller parties

0:50:55 > 0:50:57and Stormont's sole independent MLA, Claire Sugden.

0:50:57 > 0:50:59She joins me now along with Steven Agnew, the Green Party

0:50:59 > 0:51:00leader, and People Before

0:51:00 > 0:51:01Profit's Gerry Carroll.

0:51:01 > 0:51:04We asked Jim Allister of the TUV to join us, by the way,

0:51:04 > 0:51:08but he didn't want to.

0:51:08 > 0:51:13Stephen, you said it is now time for the Secretary of State to consider

0:51:13 > 0:51:18different approaches if he is serious about breaking the deadlock.

0:51:18 > 0:51:24I think we'd stick these dishes away from the parties. I have proposed

0:51:24 > 0:51:32that we open them up to a citizen' Assembly. As has been trialled in

0:51:32 > 0:51:36Manchester, around issues of Brexit. Put it to the citizens to test what

0:51:36 > 0:51:40they think.The parties tested what they thought in March and June.No,

0:51:40 > 0:51:47we tested to the want to vote for. On these issues, how important are

0:51:47 > 0:51:50the two citizens? No party in Northern Ireland can save you speak

0:51:50 > 0:51:54for the majority. We are all minority parties. That is why there

0:51:54 > 0:52:00is equality. It it was the dozens. It has been done in the Republic and

0:52:00 > 0:52:03in places like British Columbia and actually test the will of the

0:52:03 > 0:52:09people. I think we are beyond the point of representing people, they

0:52:09 > 0:52:14are representing their own vested interests.In March of this year,

0:52:14 > 0:52:2056% of people voted for the DUP and Sinn Fein.It is not clear because

0:52:20 > 0:52:24if you divide that up, it is a split population because of the views of

0:52:24 > 0:52:29those parties are very dissimilar. If we are to bring that into users

0:52:29 > 0:52:35and Assembly, we can sort out the dishes. It is not about taking in a

0:52:35 > 0:52:40poke, it is about presenting the evidence, letting lobby groups on

0:52:40 > 0:52:45both sides making their case and having a proper form of democracy

0:52:45 > 0:52:49where citizens feed into decision making and politicians follow the

0:52:49 > 0:52:57people.Are you agreeing with Steven Agnew?The key way to break what is

0:52:57 > 0:53:02happening. For us, look at the last year. We saw service is being

0:53:02 > 0:53:07slashed, February and March this year. Massive mobilisation of

0:53:07 > 0:53:12people, trade unions on the streets...How long is it we have

0:53:12 > 0:53:18seen people on the streets?£7 million is being cut from the health

0:53:18 > 0:53:23service, we sought mobilisation from trade unions and people saying the

0:53:23 > 0:53:27health service should be invested in more rather than being cut back on.

0:53:27 > 0:53:31People are being organised in their communities and workplaces to push

0:53:31 > 0:53:35back and curtail some of the cutbacks in the health services.

0:53:35 > 0:53:41Rather than waiting for Stormont to deliver or a deal to be concocted

0:53:41 > 0:53:44up, we are getting people organised in the own communities and sing that

0:53:44 > 0:53:48is essential and important and I would advocate that for a week

0:53:48 > 0:53:52forward. There needs to be a deal that represents real change for

0:53:52 > 0:53:58people in the north.Does anything ring true for you, without mandate

0:53:58 > 0:54:02from March and June to reach agreement on these key issues, what

0:54:02 > 0:54:05chance is there for hundreds of thousands of people being able to

0:54:05 > 0:54:10reach an agreement on such difficult issues?Think under the current

0:54:10 > 0:54:14structures of the Good Friday Agreement, you get to you vote for

0:54:14 > 0:54:22and it is Sinn Fein and DUP on this occasion. They have mandate is not

0:54:22 > 0:54:25to compromise. People vote for them on the mandates and the behaviour

0:54:25 > 0:54:29that they have demonstrated to date. The only way we can legitimately

0:54:29 > 0:54:33address this is to either change the structure of the Good Friday

0:54:33 > 0:54:36Agreement or go to another election and let the people decide to book

0:54:36 > 0:54:41for someone else.Is that your preferred option at this stage, and

0:54:41 > 0:54:45other Stormont collection?No, because if we were to have another

0:54:45 > 0:54:48election we would end up with the same as what we have now because

0:54:48 > 0:54:52there does not seem to be a credible alternative. Unfortunately, politics

0:54:52 > 0:54:58in Northern Ireland is based on the issues of unionism and nationalism

0:54:58 > 0:55:01and that is how people tend to vote. I would put it to the people, go out

0:55:01 > 0:55:05there and start thinking of other issues, health care, education and

0:55:05 > 0:55:09start thinking about who you are voting for and can those people

0:55:09 > 0:55:13deliver? For ten months, they have not been able to. I think we need to

0:55:13 > 0:55:21change what we are electing to. 2013, we need to revitalise the Good

0:55:21 > 0:55:25Friday Agreement. Sinn Fein, ironically, I was resistant to

0:55:25 > 0:55:29change. I think we will not go back to the status quo. I think the

0:55:29 > 0:55:34Assembly as we know it is dead and I think we now need to look at a

0:55:34 > 0:55:39process for change. I think that is through a process involving

0:55:39 > 0:55:45citizens. It was the People's agreement in 1998. Politicians have

0:55:45 > 0:55:52now changed it without the people's consent. I think we need to devolve

0:55:52 > 0:55:56power back to citizens. I think it has been shown to work with

0:55:56 > 0:55:59difficult decisions in the Republic of Ireland and there is no reason

0:55:59 > 0:56:04why it could not work in Northern Ireland.What about a shadow

0:56:04 > 0:56:09Assembly. We floated the idea with Owen Smith today that direct rule

0:56:09 > 0:56:14ministers could be appointed by London but you would have checks and

0:56:14 > 0:56:16balances Assembly in Stormont keeping an eye on decisions as they

0:56:16 > 0:56:25are made. Does that hold any attraction?The have

0:56:25 > 0:56:28institutionalised sectarianism in Stormont. That has been the case

0:56:28 > 0:56:31since 1998. There is an attempt and we are not weighted to those

0:56:31 > 0:56:38structures. It is an attempt to try and circumvent issues like equal

0:56:38 > 0:56:42marriage, the right to an Irish language act by talking about

0:56:42 > 0:56:46structures and changing structures and a shadow Assembly. Any change to

0:56:46 > 0:56:53structure, does it implement real change or is it used to block those

0:56:53 > 0:56:57changes to society? That is our business to judging those changes.

0:56:57 > 0:57:03You are the sole independent MLA, Claire Sugden, at Stormont. The

0:57:03 > 0:57:08smaller parties met with yourself to talk about how the process could be

0:57:08 > 0:57:12moved forward. Did anything positive come out of that? I assume everyone

0:57:12 > 0:57:16was there apart from the Sinn Fein and the DUP.The parties outside of

0:57:16 > 0:57:24the two parties were willing to come together and have a discussion...

0:57:24 > 0:57:28Was a fruitful? To be honest, no. The power lies with the two main

0:57:28 > 0:57:33parties. I would like to be part of this process and put ideas forward.

0:57:33 > 0:57:38I would like the secretary of state, who I believe he has

0:57:38 > 0:57:41irresponsibility to be small parties because we have a mandate, he has to

0:57:41 > 0:57:46talk to us and he has not up until now. Until the two main parties can

0:57:46 > 0:57:51work together, ultimately this is what this is about, not an Irish

0:57:51 > 0:57:53language act, marriage equality, this is about working with one

0:57:53 > 0:58:01another. The two cannot exist without one another but they have to

0:58:01 > 0:58:04sell it to the voters.We need to change the structures that allow

0:58:04 > 0:58:10them to have so much power.The Good Friday Agreement structures...

0:58:10 > 0:58:14Parties who are resistant to change our ensuring that direct rule

0:58:14 > 0:58:20happens. By the resistant to change to the Good Friday Agreement, we

0:58:20 > 0:58:25voted and the Green Party campaigned for it, it is 20 years on now and we

0:58:25 > 0:58:29are facing the anniversary with no Assembly. We have to change the

0:58:29 > 0:58:36structures and make them sustainable and move the -- remove the B-2 of

0:58:36 > 0:58:42them.The majority of MLAs and parties and is huge section of

0:58:42 > 0:58:49parties are in favour of those.The DUP mac believe they have a mandate.

0:58:49 > 0:58:54The majority of the assemblies are in favour of those issues.Any deal

0:58:54 > 0:58:58in Stormont should take those into consideration. If that is not action

0:58:58 > 0:59:03on those issues, it will be seen as a sell out.That could be dealt with

0:59:03 > 0:59:10at Stormont if the Assembly got up and running again.Potentially, but

0:59:10 > 0:59:13these negotiations that are ongoing and none of us are involved in them

0:59:13 > 0:59:21and we just don't let -- we are not involved in them and we do not know

0:59:21 > 0:59:26what is going on.You have a unique insight into all of these. One year

0:59:26 > 0:59:33ago, you were in the Executive serving as justice minister. Did you

0:59:33 > 0:59:41have any sense at all that the whole point was built on such a fragile

0:59:41 > 0:59:46foundation? That 12 months on, the whole thing could have collapsed?

0:59:46 > 0:59:52No, I may beat would not have accepted the job. That said, I would

0:59:52 > 0:59:57not go back on that belief that the parties did work well together and

0:59:57 > 1:00:03there did seem that the Government could work forward around the issues

1:00:03 > 1:00:07that do matter to people on the ground.What is your analysis on why

1:00:07 > 1:00:12that fell apart so quickly?I think there was this misconception that

1:00:12 > 1:00:16the DUP were walking over Sinn Fein. What Sinn Fein did was that one

1:00:16 > 1:00:20cannot exist without the other. I think this is about them working

1:00:20 > 1:00:25together and fighting a way to work together. Yes, I agree with Jerry on

1:00:25 > 1:00:28terms of the issues that can be dealt with at Stormont. These issues

1:00:28 > 1:00:36are not the issues. It is a form of words. Each of them... Both have to

1:00:36 > 1:00:40go back to their voter base and say we have one.It is interesting to

1:00:40 > 1:00:45hear your perspectives on it. It is very revealing. Thank you for

1:00:45 > 1:00:48joining us.

1:00:48 > 1:00:58Let's take a look at the week in 60 seconds. The secretary of state

1:00:58 > 1:01:02stepped in for plans for a budget. It is now very unlikely that an

1:01:02 > 1:01:08executive will be in place within a timetable to pass a budget.But that

1:01:08 > 1:01:12does not necessarily mean the talks process is over.We did our best. We

1:01:12 > 1:01:18did our best to be flexible. We were prepared to stretch ourselves.That

1:01:18 > 1:01:22does not stop us to continue to engage with Sinn Fein in trying to

1:01:22 > 1:01:29find a solution.An SDLP MLA once Sinn Fein to encourage more National

1:01:29 > 1:01:33is to join the police.That was too much ambiguity around a statement.

1:01:33 > 1:01:38You need to be stronger. People who join the police are brave.The

1:01:38 > 1:01:43Defence Secretary was the first casualties of the Westminster sexual

1:01:43 > 1:01:48harassment casual.What might have been acceptable 15 or ten years ago

1:01:48 > 1:01:55is clearly not acceptable now.The DUP Nigel Dodds what it off with

1:01:55 > 1:02:00negotiator of the year.

1:02:00 > 1:02:02-- negotiator of the year award.

1:02:02 > 1:02:03Stephen Walker reporting.

1:02:03 > 1:02:07And let's have a final word with Sam and Allison.

1:02:07 > 1:02:11A citizens Assembly, another collection? I cannot be the thought

1:02:11 > 1:02:17of another election. If we had another election, the results would

1:02:17 > 1:02:21be similar and if not the Ulster Unionist Party might feel to exist

1:02:21 > 1:02:24after another election. It was interesting what she said about how

1:02:24 > 1:02:30they were getting along really well up until the breaking point. With

1:02:30 > 1:02:34more good will, in maybe could have worked. They would have stumbled on

1:02:34 > 1:02:39a link collapsed anyway.I think she is right about that. There has been

1:02:39 > 1:02:43revisionism, particularly from Sinn Fein. These are parties who

1:02:43 > 1:02:47appointed a joint spokesman to promote their message. We knew they

1:02:47 > 1:02:51had to work together. The most interesting thing was that Steven

1:02:51 > 1:02:55Agnew leading the charge on the issue of a voluntary collagen. That

1:02:55 > 1:03:02was dead and buried. Nobody would lead talking about that. There is

1:03:02 > 1:03:05the thought that Sinn Fein have overplayed their hand and people who

1:03:05 > 1:03:07were not energised by that to the fore now.

1:03:07 > 1:03:07We will leave

1:03:07 > 1:03:10All right, and at that point we have to end it there.

1:03:10 > 1:03:12My thanks to Rosena and Andrew, and with that it's back to Sarah.

1:03:12 > 1:03:15It's been a tricky week for Theresa May -

1:03:15 > 1:03:15again, you might think.

1:03:15 > 1:03:18She's lost a Cabinet minister and been forced into a reshuffle

1:03:18 > 1:03:21which did little for party unity, to say nothing of losing a Commons

1:03:21 > 1:03:24vote on Brexit and yet more reports of fireworks in Cabinet meetings -

1:03:24 > 1:03:26this time apparently over housing.

1:03:26 > 1:03:28So, is the Prime Minister's time in office going with a bang

1:03:28 > 1:03:30or more of a whimper?

1:03:30 > 1:03:31Well, we sent Ellie Price

1:03:31 > 1:03:33and the entirely unscientific Sunday Politics moodbox

1:03:33 > 1:03:35to Conservative-held Surrey, to find out.

1:03:35 > 1:03:38ALL:Three, two, one.

1:03:38 > 1:03:44# Ignite the light and let it shine...#

1:03:44 > 1:03:48It's a tale of lit fuses, plots, conspiracy, treachery,

1:03:48 > 1:03:52but enough of the recent goings on in the Conservative Party,

1:03:52 > 1:03:56it's firework night here in Guildford and we're asking,

1:03:56 > 1:03:58does Theresa May have control of her Government and her party?

1:03:58 > 1:03:59Yes or no?

1:03:59 > 1:04:05# Baby you're a firework...#

1:04:05 > 1:04:07With all the scandals in Government at the moment

1:04:07 > 1:04:10and Brexit seems to be dragging on a little bit longer than we thought.

1:04:10 > 1:04:14So, at the moment, I don't think she is in control.

1:04:16 > 1:04:20She's too many people sniping at her back, really.

1:04:20 > 1:04:21Do you think Theresa May's in control?

1:04:21 > 1:04:23I think she's in control.

1:04:23 > 1:04:25She's in a good job having a tough time.

1:04:25 > 1:04:26No, I don't.

1:04:26 > 1:04:27I think she's a mess.

1:04:27 > 1:04:30Even when you read her body language when she's being interviewed

1:04:30 > 1:04:33by people, she doesn't seem like she's in control.

1:04:33 > 1:04:37I think she has poor advisers.

1:04:39 > 1:04:43I'm going to put it in the "yes".

1:04:43 > 1:04:46I do think she's struggling but, I still hope, still think she has

1:04:46 > 1:04:49a bit of a grip on them.

1:04:49 > 1:04:51The Queen is England's role.

1:04:51 > 1:04:54It's her birth right.

1:04:54 > 1:04:57She is England's role of this country.

1:04:57 > 1:05:00I'm going to vote for Theresa May.

1:05:00 > 1:05:03I don't think there's anyone who could do a better job.

1:05:03 > 1:05:06I think she's had a bit of a poisoned chalice with Brexit but

1:05:06 > 1:05:08I think she could have done better.

1:05:08 > 1:05:10The money's not going to where it needs to go.

1:05:10 > 1:05:12I think she should resign, really.

1:05:12 > 1:05:15I feel a bit sorry for her, actually.

1:05:15 > 1:05:16I think she's been witch-hunted a little bit.

1:05:16 > 1:05:20She's doing her best.

1:05:20 > 1:05:22With everything that's going on with the Cabinet at the

1:05:22 > 1:05:26moment, I think the Conservative Party is in a real mess, actually.

1:05:26 > 1:05:28Very disappointed.

1:05:28 > 1:05:34Well, you get bickering in all parts not just the Conservative Party.

1:05:34 > 1:05:36And that's just sort of par for the course.

1:05:36 > 1:05:39But I'm sure she'll hold everybody together

1:05:39 > 1:05:41despite the current difficulties.

1:05:41 > 1:05:43The Tories weren't in control when they had the referendum

1:05:43 > 1:05:46in the first place for the euro.

1:05:46 > 1:05:48We've had two years of complete chaos.

1:05:48 > 1:05:52I don't see an end to it.

1:05:52 > 1:05:54Well, I seem to have acquired a few new friends.

1:05:54 > 1:05:57The oohs and ahs are over and so the moodbox

1:05:57 > 1:06:01and the result is...

1:06:01 > 1:06:02No.

1:06:02 > 1:06:04The majority of people here in Guildford

1:06:04 > 1:06:06don't think Theresa May is in control.

1:06:07 > 1:06:10CHEERING

1:06:10 > 1:06:13That was Ellie with the entirely unscientific moodbox, and thanks

1:06:13 > 1:06:20to Bushy Hill Junior School in Guildford for having her along.

1:06:20 > 1:06:24Let's put the Sorbol question to our panel. Equally unscientific but all

1:06:24 > 1:06:27seasoned Westminster watchers. Is Theresa May in control of her

1:06:27 > 1:06:32Government at the moment or is all of this sex harassment allegations

1:06:32 > 1:06:37swimming around loosening her grip? Depends what you mean by in control.

1:06:37 > 1:06:44All Prime Ministers have a degree of control. They retain the power much

1:06:44 > 1:06:48tat wrongage as we saw with her reshuffle. Didn't go down well with

1:06:48 > 1:06:53her MPs but she did it. You can't be fully in control of these situations

1:06:53 > 1:06:56in effectively what is a hung Parliament. If she won a land sheep

1:06:56 > 1:07:00in the election she would have the authority to do what she wanted. She

1:07:00 > 1:07:04could float over something like this. Stories like this, you could

1:07:04 > 1:07:08say she's perfectly suited for it, the vicar's daughter, the church

1:07:08 > 1:07:12goer, to sort it out. It is much more complicated than that. I don't

1:07:12 > 1:07:15think she will be able to get a full grip of it. There are some practical

1:07:15 > 1:07:20things that need to happen that will happen. I remember with back to

1:07:20 > 1:07:24basics and John Major, that equally vague scandal, what was back to

1:07:24 > 1:07:30basics about? It was still running months afterwards, stories about a

1:07:30 > 1:07:34minister having an affair. This is different. I can see it will be

1:07:34 > 1:07:38impossible for her to fully get to grips with it.Does it provide an

1:07:38 > 1:07:41opportunity for Theresa May to be seen to be taking really serious

1:07:41 > 1:07:45action, trying to root out a bad culture in Westminster and therefore

1:07:45 > 1:07:49get some political credit for it? That opportunity was available to

1:07:49 > 1:07:55her all of last week and she hasn't taken it. What's remarkable for me

1:07:55 > 1:07:58is the near complete breakdown in discipline in the higher ranks the

1:07:58 > 1:08:03Tory Party. It is extraordinary you have Cabinet level ministers who are

1:08:03 > 1:08:07not supporting their colleagues. Ministers and former ministers

1:08:07 > 1:08:10giving interviews in which they slag off their former colleagues. It is

1:08:10 > 1:08:15an absolute unholy mess. There is no sense that she is gripping this. Or

1:08:15 > 1:08:19has any particular solution. I think we can have a lot of sympathy for

1:08:19 > 1:08:23her in terms of finding a solution. How on earth do you grip a problem

1:08:23 > 1:08:31like this where you're talking about apparently an indefinite period of

1:08:31 > 1:08:34retrospective examination of potential faults. 15 years is no

1:08:34 > 1:08:38longer too historic for somebody to dredge up some small thing that may

1:08:38 > 1:08:42or may not have happened to them. It is very difficult for her. But she's

1:08:42 > 1:08:49being battered around by events. Where does this story go next?I

1:08:49 > 1:08:53think the whip's office on every party, Tories, Labour, Liberal

1:08:53 > 1:08:56Democrats, SNP all have their own whipping operations. That seems to

1:08:56 > 1:09:01be the place of it really. This is because, where do we draw the line?

1:09:01 > 1:09:05Going forward what mechanisms are put in place to top this helping

1:09:05 > 1:09:09again. To take allegations seriously, report them and

1:09:09 > 1:09:14investigate them independently. Or is there a bigger job to go back

1:09:14 > 1:09:18into the past retrospective, who knew what when as Nia said about

1:09:18 > 1:09:23Kelvin Hopkins. This is a Shadow Defence Secretary saying what did

1:09:23 > 1:09:28the Labour Party leader know about Kelvin Hopkins' allegations when he

1:09:28 > 1:09:32promoted him? Theresa May is unable to do the retrospective bit. She's

1:09:32 > 1:09:37simply too weak. I asked this of Number Ten last week. Why are you

1:09:37 > 1:09:41not more front-foot the on this. They said they would be if they

1:09:41 > 1:09:45possibly could be. She's running a minority Government. She cannot be

1:09:45 > 1:09:49seen to be going after a witch-hunt on her own people. So, I think this

1:09:49 > 1:09:58goes on. Enof thebly what the whips new -- inevitably what the whips

1:09:58 > 1:10:07knew will be parment. Amber Rudd did the same thing on Andrew Marr.They

1:10:07 > 1:10:13are being precise about the fact they didn't know anything. Sarah

1:10:13 > 1:10:17Newton said she heard no allegations about her flock, the the MPs she was

1:10:17 > 1:10:23in charge of rather than rumours about any other Tories.Amber Rudd

1:10:23 > 1:10:29say, I do not recognise the more lurid allegations. What about the

1:10:29 > 1:10:33less lurid once? So, this smells very, very bad indeed.Jeremy

1:10:33 > 1:10:39Corbyn's going to have to answer some of these questions as well?

1:10:39 > 1:10:44Yeah, but the whip's thing is a red herring. Their remit is to get the

1:10:44 > 1:10:46vote out for the Government fundamentally. Everybody knows that.

1:10:46 > 1:10:50They are not there, it is one of the problems. They are not there to be

1:10:50 > 1:10:54moral guides to these MPs. They are there to win votes for the

1:10:54 > 1:10:59Government or the opposition if that becomes possible. And deal brutally

1:10:59 > 1:11:02with MPs to make sure they get out and vote. Of course they knew

1:11:02 > 1:11:07virtually everything. But whether they were obliged to act as moral

1:11:07 > 1:11:11guard yawns in these situations, I don't think they were. It was not

1:11:11 > 1:11:15part of their job. Maybe you need moral guardians in there but not the

1:11:15 > 1:11:20whips.Normally, less than three-weeks out from a budget that's

1:11:20 > 1:11:23what we'd been talking about. Dominating our conversation. Given

1:11:23 > 1:11:26that's set for November 22nd, is that an opportunity for the

1:11:26 > 1:11:31Government to seize back control of the story?Philip Hammond may be

1:11:31 > 1:11:34glad we're not spending too much time talking about the budget. It

1:11:34 > 1:11:39should be an opportunity for the Government to seize the agenda, draw

1:11:39 > 1:11:43a line under all of this. I think one of the very difficult as pects

1:11:43 > 1:11:47of this so-called scandal for the Government to manage is knowing

1:11:47 > 1:11:50quite how long it will run. In the normal scheme of things they lose

1:11:50 > 1:11:55steam after a couple of weeks. But there are so many potential gayses

1:11:55 > 1:11:59that could come out, it might run longer than that. Rather like the

1:11:59 > 1:12:03expenses scandal. But there is an opportunity at the budget to reset

1:12:03 > 1:12:08the' again da. I just don't think Philip Hammond will take it. I think

1:12:08 > 1:12:11he's a very caution Chancellor. At the moment, there is a feeling

1:12:11 > 1:12:17Theresa May's leadership is so weak it will be too dangerous for them to

1:12:17 > 1:12:22do anything particularly dram attic why. I expect a steady as you go

1:12:22 > 1:12:26budget where they will be hoping not to make any mistakes.You say there

1:12:26 > 1:12:32is disagreement in the Cabinet about what should be in the budget?

1:12:32 > 1:12:38Disagreement between the Chancellor and the Prime Minister. The

1:12:38 > 1:12:42witch-hunt is hiding a huge story which is the incredible dysfunction

1:12:42 > 1:12:45between Number Ten and number 11. Philip Hammond and Theresa May can't

1:12:45 > 1:12:50bear to be in the same room with each other let alone agreeing what's

1:12:50 > 1:12:54in the budget. It is coming down to housing. Everybody agrees it has to

1:12:54 > 1:13:00be the centrepiece of the budget. They have to get more houses built.

1:13:00 > 1:13:01Philip Hammond wands that bee

1:13:01 > 1:13:02They have to get more houses built. Philip Hammond wands that bee

1:13:02 > 1:13:07deregulation. Theresa May wants to are borrow up to 50 billion

1:13:07 > 1:13:09merchandise more for the Government to build for themselves.

1:13:09 > 1:13:11That's all for today.

1:13:11 > 1:13:13There's no Sunday Politics next weekend

1:13:13 > 1:13:15while Parliament is in recess,

1:13:15 > 1:13:18but I'll be back here at 11am on BBC One in two weeks' time.

1:13:18 > 1:13:22Until then, bye bye.