0:00:00 > 0:00:00SUNDAY POLITICS NIC B735B/02 BRD000000
2:33:06 > 2:33:09Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.
2:33:09 > 2:33:11The delay, fudge and waffle at Stormont needs to stop.
2:33:11 > 2:33:14Just one of the messages the Alliance leader David Ford
2:33:14 > 2:33:17delivered at his party's annual conference this weekend.
2:33:17 > 2:33:20But, with the Assembly election creeping closer, the mood was all about building on
2:33:20 > 2:33:23the party's recent success at the polls.
2:33:23 > 2:33:27There are potentially half a dozen gains, a number of constituencies where we already hold seats,
2:33:27 > 2:33:29where we're looking for extra seats
2:33:29 > 2:33:32and seats that we haven't been representing for some time.
2:33:32 > 2:33:36Places like North Belfast and East Londonderry where there could be opportunities, as well.
2:33:36 > 2:33:39We'll hear the thoughts of the party's deputy leader Naomi Long.
2:33:39 > 2:33:43Plus, they've been making their minds up on the EU for the last two weeks.
2:33:43 > 2:33:46We'll hear from the Ulster Unionist leader on why he believes we're
2:33:46 > 2:33:48better off in Europe than out.
2:33:48 > 2:33:51And making sense of all of that and more are my guests of the day,
2:33:51 > 2:33:55Professor Deirdre Heenan and columnist Newton Emerson.
2:34:01 > 2:34:05Three of Alliance's eight MLAs won't run for the Assembly again,
2:34:05 > 2:34:08so the party used its annual conference to put some of its newer
2:34:08 > 2:34:09faces in the spotlight.
2:34:09 > 2:34:12But the election campaign will also see the return of an Alliance
2:34:12 > 2:34:14politician who needs no introduction.
2:34:14 > 2:34:17Our Political Correspondent Chris Page was at the conference.
2:34:17 > 2:34:20His report contains some flash photography.
2:34:20 > 2:34:24She looks glad to be back. Naomi Long is in the political
2:34:24 > 2:34:25picture again.
2:34:25 > 2:34:28Last year, she won the biggest ever vote by an Alliance candidate
2:34:28 > 2:34:31in a Westminster election, but it wasn't
2:34:31 > 2:34:33enough to keep her East Belfast seat.
2:34:33 > 2:34:3612 months on, she's eyeing up a return to the Assembly.
2:34:36 > 2:34:41Her leader is enthusiastic about the prospect.
2:34:41 > 2:34:44Let's just say this - I am looking forward
2:34:44 > 2:34:46to the Assembly election.
2:34:46 > 2:34:51At the start of another five long years, more long service.
2:34:51 > 2:34:52APPLAUSE
2:34:52 > 2:34:55In his speech, Mr Ford talked about the economy,
2:34:55 > 2:34:57legacy issues and the EU referendum.
2:34:57 > 2:35:03He said Alliance were the only party working for everyone.
2:35:03 > 2:35:07David Ford is a leader who's always had his party fully behind him.
2:35:07 > 2:35:12In his 15 years in charge, Alliance have had their first elected MP
2:35:12 > 2:35:14and increased their Stormont seats.
2:35:14 > 2:35:17They may have lost the Westminster seat last year, but this
2:35:17 > 2:35:22conference has been about laying plans to try to take more ground in the Assembly elections.
2:35:22 > 2:35:26There are potentially half a dozen gains, a number of constituencies
2:35:26 > 2:35:29where we already hold seats, where we're looking for extra seats.
2:35:29 > 2:35:32Also seats that we haven't been representing in some time,
2:35:32 > 2:35:37like North Belfast and East Londonderry, where there could be opportunities, as well.
2:35:37 > 2:35:41Three of the eight current Alliance MLAs won't be standing this time.
2:35:41 > 2:35:44Anna Lo is one of them. Will you miss it?
2:35:44 > 2:35:50I will miss it, yes. We have a very strong team of candidates.
2:35:50 > 2:35:57We have women, young men and I think it's a wonderful team of candidates
2:35:57 > 2:36:00to serve Northern Ireland to a better future.
2:36:00 > 2:36:04The new candidates were raising their profile at this conference.
2:36:04 > 2:36:07I come as a typical Alliance person from a mixed marriage
2:36:07 > 2:36:10with a child in integrated education.
2:36:10 > 2:36:13Alliance fitted me well and when I joined them, I felt I had come home.
2:36:13 > 2:36:17They were people who were not judging me for who I was and where I came from.
2:36:17 > 2:36:19I'm offering a new alternative in North Belfast.
2:36:19 > 2:36:22I'm positive and that's what Naomi did last year -
2:36:22 > 2:36:24a positive election campaign.
2:36:24 > 2:36:26She moved forward, despite negative voices.
2:36:26 > 2:36:30Her positivity showed that her votes grew. Even though we did lose,
2:36:30 > 2:36:33her votes did grow, and that's what I'm going to do in North Belfast -
2:36:33 > 2:36:35just positive and show the electorate
2:36:35 > 2:36:37what I can offer and what Alliance can offer them.
2:36:37 > 2:36:40Change is in the air otherwise, too.
2:36:40 > 2:36:43Mr Ford is standing down as Justice Minister in May.
2:36:43 > 2:36:45The department of Alliance's other minister
2:36:45 > 2:36:49is being abolished, so would he fancy a different portfolio?
2:36:49 > 2:36:52Alliance is not simply interested in powers for power's sake
2:36:52 > 2:36:54or responsibility for responsibility's sake.
2:36:54 > 2:36:57What we're looking to do is advance an agenda.
2:36:57 > 2:36:59There are different ways we can do that.
2:36:59 > 2:37:02We'll make our judgements after the election and see what is the best way we can do that.
2:37:02 > 2:37:07And as for whether the leader might be going into his last election,
2:37:07 > 2:37:09Mr Ford is not giving much away, either.
2:37:09 > 2:37:12Over 14 years ago, when I became the leader of the party,
2:37:12 > 2:37:16I said, "When you want me to go, don't get the men in the grey suits - just tell me."
2:37:16 > 2:37:18Nobody's told me yet.
2:37:18 > 2:37:20And joining me now is the Alliance Party's deputy leader
2:37:20 > 2:37:22Naomi Long. Thanks for joining us.
2:37:22 > 2:37:26What are the chances I'll be introducing you this time next year as the party leader?
2:37:26 > 2:37:29I think that's a way off and I don't think it's something
2:37:29 > 2:37:31I want to be speculating about.
2:37:31 > 2:37:33David has said no-one's told him to go and that's right,
2:37:33 > 2:37:35and no-one is going to either.
2:37:35 > 2:37:38We are very satisfied. He's the most successful leader the party has ever
2:37:38 > 2:37:40had and he's a leader we want to hold on to.
2:37:40 > 2:37:44He gave you a great puff in his speech yesterday, but he is uncertain
2:37:44 > 2:37:47that he will continue as leader in the medium to long-term.
2:37:47 > 2:37:50The fact that this issue is now up for public discussion
2:37:50 > 2:37:53suggests he doesn't see it as a long-term job.
2:37:53 > 2:37:56With all due respect, it's up for public discussion
2:37:56 > 2:37:58because people keep asking me the question.
2:37:58 > 2:38:00When I said I was coming back to politics,
2:38:00 > 2:38:02it was one of the first things people asked me.
2:38:02 > 2:38:04The reality is it's not for discussion in the party,
2:38:04 > 2:38:07it's not where our focus is - that is on getting a strong team
2:38:07 > 2:38:10in the Assembly so we can make a difference to the people
2:38:10 > 2:38:11of Northern Ireland.
2:38:11 > 2:38:14It's not about the leadership because we're happy with the leadership.
2:38:14 > 2:38:16I'm part of that leadership.
2:38:16 > 2:38:20Stephen, David and I work together in a collegiate way to make sure that the party has
2:38:20 > 2:38:21the most success we can bring.
2:38:21 > 2:38:25That is what the party should be about and we're not focused
2:38:25 > 2:38:28on leadership, but unfortunately, I think other people outside perhaps are.
2:38:28 > 2:38:31You won't be tapping him on the shoulder and suggesting he moves on?
2:38:31 > 2:38:33Absolutely not.
2:38:33 > 2:38:35Although he might get a call from David Cameron saying,
2:38:35 > 2:38:38"You've done a good job for 15 years, you've been Justice Minister for six,
2:38:38 > 2:38:41"how about a seat in the House of Lords?" That'd take it out of your hands.
2:38:41 > 2:38:45It wouldn't, because you can sit in the House of Lords, as Maurice Morrow does,
2:38:45 > 2:38:48and still sit in the Assembly, so it would make no difference.
2:38:48 > 2:38:50David has been on record about his view of going into the Lords
2:38:50 > 2:38:55for a long time, so I don't think he'll be getting too many taps on the shoulder at all.
2:38:55 > 2:38:58In the short-term, his leadership depends on the party's performance
2:38:58 > 2:39:03in May's Assembly election - what is the best you can hope for?
2:39:03 > 2:39:07It's not about the best we can hope for. What we want to do is build
2:39:07 > 2:39:09a team that is strong in the Assembly, we want a mandate
2:39:09 > 2:39:12so we can make a choice about going into
2:39:12 > 2:39:15government and then we will be in a position to use the influence
2:39:15 > 2:39:18that we are given by the people of Northern Ireland to make progress
2:39:18 > 2:39:21on their behalf, either in government or outside of government,
2:39:21 > 2:39:24because both of those options will be open to us beyond May.
2:39:24 > 2:39:27It is about growing your numbers in Stormont.
2:39:27 > 2:39:31You have six at the moment. You're losing three well-known faces.
2:39:31 > 2:39:35David Ford, in that report, talked about the possibility of six more seats on offer.
2:39:35 > 2:39:38That would bring you to 14. Is that the target you're looking for?
2:39:38 > 2:39:41I have no limit in terms of the ambition of what we want to do.
2:39:41 > 2:39:44We have seen in other cases where we have surprised people -
2:39:44 > 2:39:46not just with the Westminster seat, but in places
2:39:46 > 2:39:49like South Down, where people told us we couldn't make any inroads
2:39:49 > 2:39:51and we had two councillors elected.
2:39:51 > 2:39:54There are surprise results in elections and I'm
2:39:54 > 2:39:57not writing off any constituency at this point in time.
2:39:57 > 2:40:00Ultimately, elections are the only time when the voters can really make
2:40:00 > 2:40:03a difference and it doesn't matter where they are in Northern Ireland -
2:40:03 > 2:40:07if they vote Alliance, it can count towards the Assembly, and more than that,
2:40:07 > 2:40:10even if they don't elect an Assembly member, it can
2:40:10 > 2:40:14make a difference in terms of our mandate to be in the executive.
2:40:14 > 2:40:17Stephen Farry is a minister not because of the number of seats we have,
2:40:17 > 2:40:20but because of the number of votes we polled.
2:40:20 > 2:40:22Every vote in this election counts.
2:40:22 > 2:40:26You are limited by what is realistically achievable
2:40:26 > 2:40:28and you have had some success.
2:40:28 > 2:40:30You won East Belfast and then lost it again.
2:40:30 > 2:40:35You went from six MLAs 1998 to eight today, an increase in share in Assembly
2:40:35 > 2:40:39from 6.5% to 7.7. It's not seismic growth - it's modest.
2:40:39 > 2:40:42It'd be fair to say we did that in one of the most difficult
2:40:42 > 2:40:45conditions that a party would have to fight elections,
2:40:45 > 2:40:48with flag protests and other things going on.
2:40:48 > 2:40:54There was a real pressure on us and we managed to grow our vote, so we need to be realistic,
2:40:54 > 2:40:57but I'm not going to be pessimistic.
2:40:57 > 2:41:01I sat in many studios in 2009 and was told
2:41:01 > 2:41:03I couldn't possibly be the MP for East Belfast,
2:41:03 > 2:41:06that that wasn't being realistic, but that was wrong.
2:41:06 > 2:41:10I was told after 2010 we'd reached a high water mark, but we got 4,000
2:41:10 > 2:41:12more votes in East Belfast last year.
2:41:12 > 2:41:17It wasn't enough to take the seat, but what it does show is that it's not a flash in the pan,
2:41:17 > 2:41:22that we were actually making a difference and the people in that constituency are making
2:41:22 > 2:41:23a choice for change.
2:41:23 > 2:41:26What we do know about David Ford's future, because he has been clear
2:41:26 > 2:41:29about this, is he will not be the Justice Minister
2:41:29 > 2:41:32again if that falls to the Alliance Party.
2:41:32 > 2:41:35Do you think your party should put itself up for that ministry
2:41:35 > 2:41:38again after May?
2:41:38 > 2:41:41I have to look back at why we took it in the first place.
2:41:41 > 2:41:44It was an opportunity to see devolution sustained
2:41:44 > 2:41:47and brought forward. It was an opportunity to see real progress in Northern Ireland
2:41:47 > 2:41:49and to do reform.
2:41:49 > 2:41:52If we are going to talk about that - and we haven't been offered the post yet,
2:41:52 > 2:41:54so we're not a position to accept
2:41:54 > 2:41:56or decline because it hasn't been offered -
2:41:56 > 2:41:59but if we're going to do that again, it would have to be on the same
2:41:59 > 2:42:01basis that we believe that there will be progress possible,
2:42:01 > 2:42:05that the executive will be delivering for the people of Northern Ireland.
2:42:05 > 2:42:07That will depend on the programme for government.
2:42:07 > 2:42:10We want a mandate to be in those negotiations, to use our
2:42:10 > 2:42:14influence to get the best possible outcome for the people of Northern Ireland, but we will not commit
2:42:14 > 2:42:18ourselves to take any post in an executive beyond these
2:42:18 > 2:42:21elections unless we are satisfied that
2:42:21 > 2:42:23that executive will deliver real progress.
2:42:23 > 2:42:27You are saying there is a place called opposition for the Alliance Party.
2:42:27 > 2:42:32When I was in the Assembly, we were in opposition and I was part of that opposition.
2:42:32 > 2:42:35- It's more formalised this time. - Of course.
2:42:35 > 2:42:41Nevertheless, what we want to do is use our influence to its maximum benefit.
2:42:41 > 2:42:45If we believe we can do that in government, then that's where we want to be.
2:42:45 > 2:42:48If we believe we can do that outside of government, we'll not be afraid to do it.
2:42:48 > 2:42:51As Steven said, this is not about power for power's sake.
2:42:51 > 2:42:54This is about using your influence to be
2:42:54 > 2:42:56able to deliver for people.
2:42:56 > 2:43:00That is what it has to be about if politics is to engage the public.
2:43:00 > 2:43:04You've had difficulties with policy goals that have not been delivered
2:43:04 > 2:43:07because they've been blocked by other parties - for example,
2:43:07 > 2:43:11the St Mary's College issue, the issue about fatal foetal abnormality.
2:43:11 > 2:43:15There have been tensions between the Alliance Party and other parties.
2:43:15 > 2:43:21Doesn't that suggest that you might be better in an oppositional role, calling other parties to account?
2:43:21 > 2:43:26We have to balance that against what we have been able to achieve in terms of our agenda.
2:43:26 > 2:43:30We have seen peace walls removed, too, in North Belfast.
2:43:30 > 2:43:34Removed under a Justice Minister that Alliance was able to provide and he gave that leadership.
2:43:34 > 2:43:40We have been able to look at what Steven has been able to do in terms of developing further education -
2:43:40 > 2:43:44changing it from being a Cinderella sector into something that people value.
2:43:44 > 2:43:47We have to balance what we weren't able to do against what we have been
2:43:47 > 2:43:51able to achieve and that's the decision we'll need to make in the next five years.
2:43:51 > 2:43:55Are we better placed to deliver in the executive, or outside of it?
2:43:55 > 2:43:59But first we need a mandate to be there and that is what we're focused on right now.
2:43:59 > 2:44:05We will watch with interest. Naomi Long, thank you for joining us.
2:44:05 > 2:44:10Let's have a word with my guests of the day, Deirdre Heenan and Newton Emerson.
2:44:10 > 2:44:13Deirdre, your thoughts on the journey ahead for Alliance.
2:44:13 > 2:44:18I think Naomi is right. The next five years are crucial for the Alliance Party.
2:44:18 > 2:44:21Remembering that their best votes were in the early '70s.
2:44:21 > 2:44:25I think they have a number of key decisions to make. In the short-term,
2:44:25 > 2:44:28they need to get votes, seats, power and that
2:44:28 > 2:44:31should be the short-term objective, but long-term, they need to think,
2:44:31 > 2:44:34are they going to be a party for Northern Ireland?
2:44:34 > 2:44:38So they're saying it's largely irrelevant in the west, because they don't have candidates
2:44:38 > 2:44:41in many constituencies, but they have broken through that
2:44:41 > 2:44:43idea that they're just for the middle classes.
2:44:43 > 2:44:47They are making gains in North Belfast, in East Belfast.
2:44:47 > 2:44:52Another big questions for them is are they just there to prop up a dysfunctional executive?
2:44:52 > 2:44:55To take jobs that the grand coalitions can't agree on?
2:44:55 > 2:44:58Or are they going to be in opposition and able to say, "We don't agree with
2:44:58 > 2:45:04"this government, we are making clear blue water between us and them"? Very difficult.
2:45:04 > 2:45:07Newton, on the issue of potential leadership in the future,
2:45:07 > 2:45:10it's understandable that Naomi Long doesn't want to be drawn on that,
2:45:10 > 2:45:14that people should want to draw her on that and she accepts that.
2:45:14 > 2:45:15Where do you stand?
2:45:15 > 2:45:18Is it inevitable that David Ford will continue to lead the party
2:45:18 > 2:45:20in the short-term but not the long-term?
2:45:20 > 2:45:25Once this conversation starts in public, it's obvious the ground
2:45:25 > 2:45:27is being laid for some kind of succession.
2:45:27 > 2:45:30I think you can assume that will happen in the medium-term.
2:45:30 > 2:45:35Sparing the blushes of Naomi Long, will it be inevitable that she will be his successor?
2:45:35 > 2:45:39She is his anointed successor, having given a speech where he talked
2:45:39 > 2:45:43about five long years - whether that comes to pass we can't
2:45:43 > 2:45:47say, but, yes, that is part of the ground that is obviously being laid.
2:45:47 > 2:45:50Yesterday at conference, it was obvious the ground was being laid.
2:45:50 > 2:45:54What is clear is Naomi wants to have a mandate before she becomes leader.
2:45:54 > 2:45:57It is difficult to be leader sitting in Westminster.
2:45:57 > 2:45:59There was a chance she would lose the seat - she did.
2:45:59 > 2:46:02In a year's time, when she has a mandate, she will be the leader.
2:46:02 > 2:46:08Newton, on the issue of taking a position or positions in the new executive
2:46:08 > 2:46:10after May, or having an oppositional role,
2:46:10 > 2:46:13what do you think the call might be?
2:46:13 > 2:46:17I think if you look at the last mandate while justice was worth taking
2:46:17 > 2:46:22on its own to deliver devolution, nothing really was extracted from that, in fact.
2:46:22 > 2:46:25Quite apart from the cohesion sharing and integration strategy
2:46:25 > 2:46:29that the Alliance had been promised, we ended up with shared education.
2:46:29 > 2:46:32I know the nuclear option of pulling down the executive is not
2:46:32 > 2:46:36Alliance's cup of tea, but they didn't use the leverage they had.
2:46:36 > 2:46:39OK. We'll talk to you both a bit later. For now, thank you very much.
2:46:39 > 2:46:43Let's pause for a look back at the political week in 60 seconds
2:46:43 > 2:46:46with Chris Page.
2:46:51 > 2:46:53The national Brexit debate came to Northern Ireland.
2:46:53 > 2:46:57David Cameron and Boris Johnson hit the campaign trail.
2:46:57 > 2:47:00Basil McCrea vowed to rebuild his political career -
2:47:00 > 2:47:02a Stormont watchdog cleared him of allegations
2:47:02 > 2:47:05of sexual misconduct and inappropriate behaviour.
2:47:05 > 2:47:08The values and principles of what NI21 stood for
2:47:08 > 2:47:12I think resonated with the people and will still resonate.
2:47:12 > 2:47:17I stand having been totally vindicated by a review
2:47:17 > 2:47:19of the commissioner and my peers.
2:47:19 > 2:47:23Labour members here called on the party's ruling body to allow
2:47:23 > 2:47:25candidates to run in elections.
2:47:26 > 2:47:31The Culture Minister left the committee investigating safety issues at Casement Park.
2:47:31 > 2:47:33She questioned why she been asked to take an oath
2:47:33 > 2:47:35when other witnesses hadn't.
2:47:35 > 2:47:39- Could you please sit down?- I've made clear, I am not coming back
2:47:39 > 2:47:42to answer questions unless you clarify the decision for an oath.
2:47:42 > 2:47:43Thank you.
2:47:43 > 2:47:46And the last of the double jobbers left the Stormont stage.
2:47:46 > 2:47:50Gregory Campbell chose to remain an MP.
2:47:56 > 2:47:58Chris Page reporting.
2:47:58 > 2:48:01So the Ulster Unionist Party has decided that remaining
2:48:01 > 2:48:04in the European Union is better for Northern Ireland than leaving it.
2:48:04 > 2:48:09But the party says it respects that individual members may vote to leave in the June referendum.
2:48:09 > 2:48:11We'll hear from party leader Mike Nesbitt in a moment,
2:48:11 > 2:48:14but first the Go roadshow came to Belfast on Friday night.
2:48:14 > 2:48:17Politicians from across the political spectrum campaigning
2:48:17 > 2:48:20to leave the EU gathered in the Titanic Quarter.
2:48:20 > 2:48:24Ukip leader Nigel Farage said he wants to talk to ordinary people.
2:48:24 > 2:48:27The remarkable thing about Grassroots Out is we're bringing people together
2:48:27 > 2:48:31from across the political spectrum - people in the centre, the right,
2:48:31 > 2:48:34people on the left - this is the most inclusive attempt
2:48:34 > 2:48:37that's ever been made in British politics.
2:48:37 > 2:48:41The fact that quite a large group of Conservatives don't want to come
2:48:41 > 2:48:45with us - although some of them are here - that is a shame, but, look,
2:48:45 > 2:48:47it's the same for the other side.
2:48:47 > 2:48:50This question of the European Union, whether we
2:48:50 > 2:48:53should be brave enough to take back our independence,
2:48:53 > 2:48:56it is bigger than party politics. This isn't about left and right,
2:48:56 > 2:48:59it's about right and wrong as far as I'm concerned,
2:48:59 > 2:49:02so, actually, this will divide political parties,
2:49:02 > 2:49:05it'll divide families all over the United Kingdom.
2:49:05 > 2:49:10It is an issue that excites genuine passion.
2:49:10 > 2:49:12We will talk to ordinary people for whom,
2:49:12 > 2:49:16probably, politics isn't a big part of their lives, but they're facing
2:49:16 > 2:49:19the biggest decision that they've got to make in their lifetimes
2:49:19 > 2:49:23and I want to say to them, all the scare stories they've heard over the last couple of weeks,
2:49:23 > 2:49:25from David Cameron downwards, are rubbish.
2:49:25 > 2:49:30All we're saying is we want to get back to be a normal self-governing
2:49:30 > 2:49:35nation that makes its own laws and crucially controls its own borders.
2:49:35 > 2:49:39Nigel Farage. And the Ulster Unionist leader Mike Nesbitt is with me.
2:49:39 > 2:49:43Hello. What persuaded you in the end that it's better to remain than to leave?
2:49:43 > 2:49:47The three big areas are the money, the border and the future
2:49:47 > 2:49:50of the United Kingdom and it's clear that
2:49:50 > 2:49:52Nicola Sturgeon sees a Brexit vote
2:49:52 > 2:49:54as an opportunity to press a button
2:49:54 > 2:49:56for a second referendum on Scottish independence.
2:49:56 > 2:50:00It may not be the only opportunity she sees, but it's the obvious one
2:50:00 > 2:50:04and, as a Unionist leader, I'm not putting my fingerprints on that button.
2:50:04 > 2:50:07In terms of the border, it was clear when we spoke to the Prime Minister
2:50:07 > 2:50:10there won't be a hard border in this island -
2:50:10 > 2:50:13nobody's going to build a Donald Trump-like wall, but there will have to be
2:50:13 > 2:50:16a hard border and it will take us back to the '70s.
2:50:16 > 2:50:19It'll be at Stranraer and Cairnryan and Gatwick and Heathrow.
2:50:19 > 2:50:23We will become, to a certain extent, internal exiles.
2:50:23 > 2:50:25And on the money...
2:50:25 > 2:50:27I offered anybody in the room yesterday a pen
2:50:27 > 2:50:31and said, "If you can financially underwrite and guarantee no farmer
2:50:31 > 2:50:34"will lose out, no voluntary or community sector worker will lose
2:50:34 > 2:50:37"their job because of the end of European money,
2:50:37 > 2:50:41"sign that form and that will influence my thinking."
2:50:41 > 2:50:43Nobody was prepared to take the pen.
2:50:43 > 2:50:45I wonder, does that mean you will play your part
2:50:45 > 2:50:49in what Boris Johnson calls Project Fear? I suspect that people who take
2:50:49 > 2:50:53a different view to yours, having listened to what you just said,
2:50:53 > 2:50:55would say you're playing the fear card.
2:50:55 > 2:50:57We had a very intense debate yesterday - over
2:50:57 > 2:51:00three hours. What pleased me was the quality of the debate.
2:51:00 > 2:51:03- Was it unanimous, the decision?- 99%.
2:51:03 > 2:51:08One dissenting voice out of around 100, and some people spoke
2:51:08 > 2:51:12passionately about Brexit - the reasons why we should come out
2:51:12 > 2:51:15and we dealt with each and every one of them.
2:51:15 > 2:51:18Jim Nicholson, your MEP, does he have a vote?
2:51:18 > 2:51:22- Yes.- He's for staying?
2:51:22 > 2:51:25Yes, there were about 100 people in the room.
2:51:25 > 2:51:29I thought one person coughed. We checked - one person was against.
2:51:29 > 2:51:30Do you know who that was?
2:51:30 > 2:51:34- Yes, I do.- You're not going to tell me?
2:51:34 > 2:51:37I don't want the media tents parked on his lawn.
2:51:37 > 2:51:43- Was that an elected representative? - No.- A party member, but not an elected representative.
2:51:43 > 2:51:51Will elected representatives be expected to campaign for the UK to remain,
2:51:51 > 2:51:53or will they be allowed to campaign to leave?
2:51:53 > 2:52:00Yes, but I didn't sense any MLA, of the MPs or the MEP, being for Brexit,
2:52:00 > 2:52:03so there may be some elected councillors who will be for Brexit
2:52:03 > 2:52:06and they're perfectly entitled to take their view.
2:52:06 > 2:52:10You wouldn't expect them to follow the party line in public, as elected representatives?
2:52:10 > 2:52:14- Everybody is free to do their own thing.- Is that wise? - There was incredible consensus.
2:52:14 > 2:52:19When I took the party leadership, people said to me, the two things that will spit the executive,
2:52:19 > 2:52:21are in and out of the executive and in and out of Europe.
2:52:21 > 2:52:25We were unanimous about coming out of the Northern Ireland executive
2:52:25 > 2:52:27and we got to 99-point-something percent on Europe.
2:52:27 > 2:52:32I like my sporting analogies - that was a four-try bonus win.
2:52:32 > 2:52:36OK. What about being on the opposite side of the fence to the DUP and the TUV?
2:52:36 > 2:52:39- Unionism is divided on this issue. - It is divided.
2:52:39 > 2:52:43There was very little chat over the course of the 3, 3½ hours
2:52:43 > 2:52:46about the fact that this positions us differently from other parties
2:52:46 > 2:52:49and what it means in terms of the election.
2:52:49 > 2:52:53It was a really mature debate we had about doing the right thing for Northern Ireland.
2:52:53 > 2:52:56What do you say to those who claim that if the UK Exchequer
2:52:56 > 2:53:01was to be spared having to pay huge amounts of money
2:53:01 > 2:53:05into the EU's coffers, that money could be spent
2:53:05 > 2:53:08without all of the downside of EU red tape on the difficult issues
2:53:08 > 2:53:14- we have here in Northern Ireland? That's the argument they put onto the table.- Two quick points.
2:53:14 > 2:53:16Take a look at the electoral map of the United Kingdom.
2:53:16 > 2:53:19David Cameron is a head of a Conservative Party,
2:53:19 > 2:53:24which is a South-of-England party, so if you think the realpolitik is the money coming back
2:53:24 > 2:53:26from Brussels will come to Northern Ireland, think again.
2:53:26 > 2:53:30If we do come out, do you really think the 27 members who remain will sit down and say,
2:53:30 > 2:53:35"Let's give the United Kingdom more favourable trading conditions than we have for ourselves"?
2:53:35 > 2:53:37- It would be worse? - It would be worse.- OK.
2:53:37 > 2:53:42It will be interesting to see how this pans out over the next 3½ months. Thanks very much indeed.
2:53:42 > 2:53:45Let's hear a final few thoughts from Newton and Deirdre.
2:53:45 > 2:53:50Does that decision on the part of the UUP surprise you, or was that as you expected?
2:53:50 > 2:53:54I'm surprised by how decisive the decision has been.
2:53:54 > 2:53:57But once you take a decision in politics,
2:53:57 > 2:54:01you have to jump in with both feet, you don't want to look like a waiver.
2:54:01 > 2:54:05Whether you regard it as right or wrong, backing it to the hilt is the correct thing to do.
2:54:05 > 2:54:09Whether you regard it as right or wrong, Mike Nesbitt is very clear that that is the decision
2:54:09 > 2:54:10and he is making that case today.
2:54:10 > 2:54:13He is, and I think it's a smart political move.
2:54:13 > 2:54:16Not entirely unexpected. The DUP are uncomfortable,
2:54:16 > 2:54:21they are setting their face against their natural allies and business, ignoring the evidence.
2:54:21 > 2:54:24To date, the Brexit debate in Northern Ireland has been
2:54:24 > 2:54:26a prolonged exercise in missing the point.
2:54:26 > 2:54:31A get-out-of-jail-free card, we're told - we can keep all the things we like and all those pesky
2:54:31 > 2:54:36bureaucrats in Brussels will leave us alone. We know that to be nonsense.
2:54:36 > 2:54:40The reality is the European Union is part of the warp and weave of political life in Northern Ireland.
2:54:40 > 2:54:44It's not just about the money, it's about the culture and the broader issues.
2:54:44 > 2:54:48How much, Newton, do you think this is about the Ulster Unionist putting
2:54:48 > 2:54:52clear water between themselves on this issue and the DUP?
2:54:52 > 2:54:58Well, as the DUP has not established clear water itself, it is a clever move.
2:54:58 > 2:55:00It is campaigning to leave.
2:55:00 > 2:55:06It is, but it is not... It is taking a position of leaving, but will not actively campaign for it.
2:55:06 > 2:55:08It has tried to nuance its position.
2:55:08 > 2:55:12It's clear that some big beasts within the DUP are going to campaign to leave.
2:55:12 > 2:55:18Which is why the leadership is not going to agitate around an opposite
2:55:18 > 2:55:21position, but they are quite clearly trying to keep a lid on it,
2:55:21 > 2:55:25so to take any position by the UUP effectively needles the DUP.
2:55:25 > 2:55:28It's good that it has moved away from the orange and green of politics,
2:55:28 > 2:55:31we're not having blocks in both areas.
2:55:31 > 2:55:36There is a debate within Unionism about where we are best and what is best for Northern Ireland.
2:55:36 > 2:55:38It will be fascinating.
2:55:38 > 2:55:43It is, but I find myself as someone who is a wavering
2:55:43 > 2:55:47voter that nobody is coming up with arguments that I find persuasive on either side.
2:55:47 > 2:55:50That's what makes it all so interesting.
2:55:50 > 2:55:53Thank you, both, very much indeed. Thanks to Mike Nesbitt.
2:55:53 > 2:55:55That's it for Sunday Politics for this week.
2:55:55 > 2:55:58Join me for Stormont Today - that's on BBC Two at 11.15 tomorrow night,
2:55:58 > 2:56:01but for now, from everyone on the team, thanks for watching. Bye-bye.