2:43:36 > 2:43:39Hello and welcome to Sunday Politics.
2:43:39 > 2:43:40Opt in or opt out -
2:43:40 > 2:43:44how should the Assembly deal with the issue of organ donation?
2:43:44 > 2:43:48I'll be talking to two MLAs at the forefront of that debate.
2:43:48 > 2:43:50With the great success of Titanic Belfast,
2:43:50 > 2:43:53why are surrounding businesses not benefitting
2:43:53 > 2:43:55from the influx of visitors?
2:43:55 > 2:43:58And with me throughout today, PR consultant Sheila Davidson
2:43:58 > 2:44:00and commentator Chris Donnelly.
2:44:06 > 2:44:10Well, there's a high level of support for the idea of organ donation,
2:44:10 > 2:44:12at around 70% of the population.
2:44:12 > 2:44:15Less than half that number have actually signed up
2:44:15 > 2:44:17to the donation register.
2:44:17 > 2:44:19So, how can the number of organs available
2:44:19 > 2:44:21for life-saving transplants be increased?
2:44:21 > 2:44:24The answer could be to follow Wales where, this week, a new law
2:44:24 > 2:44:26came into force which states that,
2:44:26 > 2:44:28unless you make it clear to the contrary,
2:44:28 > 2:44:30the assumption is that after death you are happy
2:44:30 > 2:44:33to have your organs donated.
2:44:33 > 2:44:36Jo-Anne Dobson's the UUP Assembly Member who's trying to introduce
2:44:36 > 2:44:37a similar law here.
2:44:37 > 2:44:40Alastair Ross from the DUP isn't convinced that's the path
2:44:40 > 2:44:42we should go down.
2:44:42 > 2:44:44You're both welcome to the programme.
2:44:44 > 2:44:48Jo-Anne Dobson, why do you believe the so-called "soft opt out" system's
2:44:48 > 2:44:50the right road for Northern Ireland?
2:44:50 > 2:44:55Because it's worked so well in other countries across Europe, and Wales,
2:44:55 > 2:44:58as you say, has gone down the route with soft opt out earlier this week.
2:44:58 > 2:45:01Why should Northern Ireland be left behind?
2:45:01 > 2:45:03There's widespread support, as you articulated
2:45:03 > 2:45:06at the start of the presentation, for organ donation
2:45:06 > 2:45:10and can I just pay tribute, Mark, to those charities that have done
2:45:10 > 2:45:13the heavy lifting around organ donation?
2:45:13 > 2:45:16And I know, I've been involved with them for over 20 years.
2:45:16 > 2:45:19But we can't get past the plateau
2:45:19 > 2:45:22in the low 30s on the organ donation register,
2:45:22 > 2:45:26so to bridge that gap, we need to do something to make this happen.
2:45:26 > 2:45:27You're a member of the Health Committee.
2:45:27 > 2:45:30The Health Committee is dealing with this issue,
2:45:30 > 2:45:32looking at your proposed legislation at the moment
2:45:32 > 2:45:35and a number of very senior surgical clinicians
2:45:35 > 2:45:39presented to the committee this week and they urged caution.
2:45:39 > 2:45:42They suggested that we should just steady the horses
2:45:42 > 2:45:46and perhaps look at the Welsh model and then make a decision
2:45:46 > 2:45:50based on the data which currently, in the UK, isn't available.
2:45:50 > 2:45:54Yes, we had a very, very useful presentation on Wednesday,
2:45:54 > 2:45:57but every single year, we lose people.
2:45:57 > 2:46:01The last year... This year, 17 local people died waiting on an organ.
2:46:01 > 2:46:02The year before, it was 15.
2:46:02 > 2:46:04So, for me, a wait-and-see approach,
2:46:04 > 2:46:07meanwhile local people continue to die.
2:46:07 > 2:46:10It was a fantastic presentation from the clinicians
2:46:10 > 2:46:14and I know they had widespread support with, I think,
2:46:14 > 2:46:16one exception for soft opt out.
2:46:16 > 2:46:18Yeah, but here's the danger, Jo-Anne Dobson - I mean,
2:46:18 > 2:46:23nobody doubts for a second what is motivating you to make things better,
2:46:23 > 2:46:26that's not the issue. But I think what some of the clinicians said
2:46:26 > 2:46:28in their presentation was they have a real
2:46:28 > 2:46:33and very genuine fear that, if this is mishandled in any way,
2:46:33 > 2:46:35the situation could be even worse
2:46:35 > 2:46:38and fewer people may donate organs in future
2:46:38 > 2:46:40and that would be the opposite outcome
2:46:40 > 2:46:43of what you are campaigning so hard for.
2:46:43 > 2:46:47Now, if those senior clinicians are saying that, you need to listen.
2:46:47 > 2:46:50But if you'd listened to all of the presentation, Mark,
2:46:50 > 2:46:52they have support for soft opt out.
2:46:52 > 2:46:54Yes, they said it has to be the right legislation,
2:46:54 > 2:46:58the right bill, and I have said from the very, very start,
2:46:58 > 2:47:01and I sat here with you two years ago when I was presenting,
2:47:01 > 2:47:03and Alastair was beside me then, on the bill,
2:47:03 > 2:47:06it has to be the right bill and I'm open to amendments.
2:47:06 > 2:47:09And I'm delighted that, led by Professor John Connolly,
2:47:09 > 2:47:12those clinicians will have their input into this bill
2:47:12 > 2:47:14going forward and I wouldn't have it any other way.
2:47:14 > 2:47:17Alastair Ross, let's just bring you in at this stage.
2:47:17 > 2:47:19What are your reservations?
2:47:19 > 2:47:22As Jo-Anne Dobson says, for some people in Northern Ireland,
2:47:22 > 2:47:26for too many people in Northern Ireland, the clock is ticking
2:47:26 > 2:47:28and they don't have the option to wait.
2:47:28 > 2:47:31Why would you want to do anything that might slow down a process
2:47:31 > 2:47:34- that could save lives?- I don't want to and I think it's unfortunate
2:47:34 > 2:47:37sometimes that those of us who are opposed to presumed consent
2:47:37 > 2:47:40have the inferences that we're not as interested in saving lives.
2:47:40 > 2:47:42That's unfortunate that that has come into the debate.
2:47:42 > 2:47:44I think we have to listen to the clinicians.
2:47:44 > 2:47:47The clinicians have all urged, unanimously urged,
2:47:47 > 2:47:49caution on moving towards a presumed consent model.
2:47:49 > 2:47:52I listened to the presentation of the Health Committee,
2:47:52 > 2:47:54I've read the letter that was sent to the minister
2:47:54 > 2:47:57and why they did that is because the evidence is incredibly sketchy.
2:47:57 > 2:47:59We can look at some countries where an opt out system
2:47:59 > 2:48:03has better rates of organ donation, but you can also look at France
2:48:03 > 2:48:06and Sweden, Brazil, places where they have a much lower rate
2:48:06 > 2:48:09of organ donation but they have the presumed consent model.
2:48:09 > 2:48:11And the two countries with the best rates are USA and Spain,
2:48:11 > 2:48:14both of which have an opt in system, a voluntary system.
2:48:14 > 2:48:16I don't think it's necessary, the clinicians have said
2:48:16 > 2:48:18we've a very good rate here, we're improving all the time.
2:48:18 > 2:48:21I don't think the evidence is there to suggest it would work
2:48:21 > 2:48:22even if we wanted to do it.
2:48:22 > 2:48:25I think the most important thing is around this issue of consent,
2:48:25 > 2:48:28that there's no other area of medicine or law in which
2:48:28 > 2:48:29consent would be presumed.
2:48:29 > 2:48:32We have to get to a point where members of the community
2:48:32 > 2:48:35are able to give their informed expressed consent
2:48:35 > 2:48:37during their life for what happens to them when they die.
2:48:37 > 2:48:39That'll give certainty to families
2:48:39 > 2:48:40who are in very difficult circumstances
2:48:40 > 2:48:44in trauma units, rather than because 108 members in the Assembly
2:48:44 > 2:48:46pass a bill that consent is somehow presumed.
2:48:46 > 2:48:48I don't think that's an ethically sound way of proceeding.
2:48:48 > 2:48:51But, of course, there are all sorts of safety nets
2:48:51 > 2:48:52in the draft legislation at the moment.
2:48:52 > 2:48:56I mean, there would have to be a qualifying person who would
2:48:56 > 2:48:59affirm that the deceased person wouldn't have objected to
2:48:59 > 2:49:02organ donation and that's a key part to this conversation.
2:49:02 > 2:49:04Nobody's suggesting that organs would be harvested
2:49:04 > 2:49:06without the family fully agreeing to that.
2:49:06 > 2:49:08I fully accept that, in practice,
2:49:08 > 2:49:11families will have a veto even if the drafting of the bill doesn't
2:49:11 > 2:49:12quite make that clear in law,
2:49:12 > 2:49:15but what we want to do is make sure that those families in trauma units
2:49:15 > 2:49:16have absolute certainty,
2:49:16 > 2:49:18that's how we get the family consent rate higher.
2:49:18 > 2:49:21And my fear is moving towards an opt out presumed consent model
2:49:21 > 2:49:25means that individuals don't have to make a decision during their lives
2:49:25 > 2:49:28and silence on their preference cannot ever be given
2:49:28 > 2:49:31the same equation as actual consent.
2:49:31 > 2:49:33And, as I've said before,
2:49:33 > 2:49:35there's no other area of medicine or law in which
2:49:35 > 2:49:38silence on an issue will be seen in law as actual consent.
2:49:38 > 2:49:41Well, that's a very interesting point just to bring in the thoughts
2:49:41 > 2:49:42of one consultant, Tim Brown.
2:49:42 > 2:49:45He told the committee that he's got serious reservations
2:49:45 > 2:49:47about assuming someone has given consent
2:49:47 > 2:49:50when, in fact, that consent hasn't been specifically given.
2:49:50 > 2:49:53Let's just take a look at what he had to say.
2:49:53 > 2:49:56I personally do have an objection to soft opt out.
2:49:56 > 2:49:57I think it's...
2:49:57 > 2:50:01I think one of the very overarching tenets of medical ethics
2:50:01 > 2:50:07is the concept of autonomy and I think that opting out...
2:50:07 > 2:50:11I think assuming that somebody has given consent
2:50:11 > 2:50:15when they have not given consent is a violation of autonomy
2:50:15 > 2:50:19and I would have grave concern that that soft opt out
2:50:19 > 2:50:22would be in direct competition with the concept of autonomy.
2:50:22 > 2:50:25That's effectively what Alastair Ross is talking about.
2:50:25 > 2:50:29Now, Tim Brown, as I understand, did go on to say that, if it was proved
2:50:29 > 2:50:32to work, then clearly he would have to look at that again
2:50:32 > 2:50:35and he clearly wants as many people to donate organs
2:50:35 > 2:50:37in those circumstances as possible.
2:50:37 > 2:50:40But what do you say to Tim Brown and to Alastair Ross
2:50:40 > 2:50:43on that issue of assumed, presumed consent?
2:50:43 > 2:50:46It's family consent. The family will have the final say
2:50:46 > 2:50:49and that's always been from the very, very start...
2:50:49 > 2:50:51Why are you shaking your head? That's a fact.
2:50:51 > 2:50:53Because Clause Four is all about deemed consent,
2:50:53 > 2:50:56- which is presumed consent. - It's a first draft.
2:50:56 > 2:50:59If this was about trying to push up family consent rates - fantastic.
2:50:59 > 2:51:01If it's about public awareness - fantastic.
2:51:01 > 2:51:03If it's about specialist nurses in hospitals,
2:51:03 > 2:51:05which is a big driver of organ donation, fantastic, but it's not.
2:51:05 > 2:51:09Clause Four makes it absolutely crystal clear in law
2:51:09 > 2:51:10that consent would be presumed
2:51:10 > 2:51:12and I don't think that is an ethically sound way
2:51:12 > 2:51:15- to proceed for organ donation. - Mark, can I come in here?- Please do.
2:51:15 > 2:51:17That was a first draft.
2:51:17 > 2:51:21I'm an individual backbench MLA bringing forward a very,
2:51:21 > 2:51:22very important piece of legislation
2:51:22 > 2:51:25and I'm open to amendments. I would ask Alastair and others
2:51:25 > 2:51:28to work with me and bring forward those amendments
2:51:28 > 2:51:31and those suggestions. I'm not precious about those amendments
2:51:31 > 2:51:34to make it the right bill and that was reflected
2:51:34 > 2:51:37by those clinicians who presented at the Health Committee.
2:51:37 > 2:51:40Yes, but it's either presumed consent or it isn't presumed consent.
2:51:40 > 2:51:43I mean, you can't amend the key point,
2:51:43 > 2:51:46one of the key points to your draft legislation.
2:51:46 > 2:51:49I mean, if Alastair Ross brought forward an amendment
2:51:49 > 2:51:52that got rid of that Clause Four issue,
2:51:52 > 2:51:55then it wouldn't be Jo-Anne Dobson's proposed legislation.
2:51:55 > 2:51:57But it's the Northern Ireland Assembly,
2:51:57 > 2:52:00I want it to be the legislation for the people of Northern Ireland.
2:52:00 > 2:52:02It's not Jo-Anne Dobson's proposed legislation,
2:52:02 > 2:52:06this is a bill to save lives right here in Northern Ireland. I work...
2:52:06 > 2:52:09Sorry, are you saying you're prepared to negotiate on the issue
2:52:09 > 2:52:10of presumed consent?
2:52:10 > 2:52:13I'm prepared to meet with anyone to bring
2:52:13 > 2:52:15the right bill for Northern Ireland.
2:52:15 > 2:52:18What we have with second stage was the first draft.
2:52:18 > 2:52:19I will meet with anyone.
2:52:19 > 2:52:21And now, Mark, can I just say finally,
2:52:21 > 2:52:24the department are working with me in the last three weeks.
2:52:24 > 2:52:26I asked during the committee
2:52:26 > 2:52:28when we had senior department officials,
2:52:28 > 2:52:31given the commitment of the First and Deputy First Minister in 2013,
2:52:31 > 2:52:33to support soft opt out.
2:52:33 > 2:52:36What have they done to work towards this?
2:52:36 > 2:52:38- And do you know what they have done? Nothing.- Right.
2:52:38 > 2:52:39Now, in the last three weeks,
2:52:39 > 2:52:42they're working to get the right bill for Northern Ireland.
2:52:42 > 2:52:43I'll come to Alastair Ross in a second,
2:52:43 > 2:52:46but here's a very important point. Your legislation,
2:52:46 > 2:52:48your draft legislation, suggests that it wouldn't in fact
2:52:48 > 2:52:51come on to the statute books until the spring of 2018,
2:52:51 > 2:52:53- even if it was agreed in this mandate.- Yeah.
2:52:53 > 2:52:55So why not take the time to sit and wait
2:52:55 > 2:52:59and see what happens as far as the Welsh experience is concerned
2:52:59 > 2:53:02and make sure that the legislation here in Northern Ireland
2:53:02 > 2:53:04is bespoke for us?
2:53:04 > 2:53:10Actually wait and see, learn from the Welsh experience and get it right.
2:53:10 > 2:53:12Meanwhile, local people continue to die.
2:53:12 > 2:53:15But that will happen anyway because your legislation won't happen
2:53:15 > 2:53:19- until the spring of 2018.- But mine will go with the education programme
2:53:19 > 2:53:21and the awareness programme around it as well. I'll...
2:53:21 > 2:53:24But that's already happening.
2:53:24 > 2:53:27Well, Clause One of the bill is a duty to promote that even further.
2:53:27 > 2:53:29The Public Health Agency has had an awareness campaign.
2:53:29 > 2:53:31They've had a fantastic campaign,
2:53:31 > 2:53:33but still only in the mid 30s on the organ donation register.
2:53:33 > 2:53:36For me personally, and for those people that are waiting on an organ,
2:53:36 > 2:53:38a wait-and-see approach...
2:53:38 > 2:53:40I think we owe it to the disserviced.
2:53:40 > 2:53:42Let's get a good news story out of the Assembly,
2:53:42 > 2:53:44let's do legislation that makes things happen.
2:53:44 > 2:53:46But it needs to be right.
2:53:46 > 2:53:48Of course it does and that's why I'm open to suggestions.
2:53:48 > 2:53:51You were nodding when I was putting that point, Alastair Ross,
2:53:51 > 2:53:53to Jo-Anne Dobson that we should wait and see
2:53:53 > 2:53:55what happens in Wales, but here's the reality as far
2:53:55 > 2:53:57as that's concerned and you need to take this on board.
2:53:57 > 2:53:59Wales passed this legislation in 2013,
2:53:59 > 2:54:02it came into effect last week in December 2015.
2:54:02 > 2:54:04It was amended in-between.
2:54:04 > 2:54:06As they realised they'd got little bits not quite right,
2:54:06 > 2:54:10they actually tweaked them. So, we could look at the Welsh experience
2:54:10 > 2:54:13and we could make the commitment in this mandate
2:54:13 > 2:54:16to bring in presumed consent in spring 2018.
2:54:16 > 2:54:18We can actually do both, that's the point.
2:54:18 > 2:54:20- I don't think we need to. - But we could do.
2:54:20 > 2:54:22There's very limited time left in this Assembly,
2:54:22 > 2:54:24I don't think the Health Committee has been able
2:54:24 > 2:54:26to give this as much scrutiny as they should.
2:54:26 > 2:54:29It's rushed evidence sessions with the Health Committee.
2:54:29 > 2:54:31They've closed the number of people who they're going to invite.
2:54:31 > 2:54:33I don't want to see this rushed through.
2:54:33 > 2:54:35It is a controversial piece of legislation.
2:54:35 > 2:54:38I don't want to see organ donation became a controversial issue
2:54:38 > 2:54:40and for that reason I think we need to listen to the experts
2:54:40 > 2:54:42who are telling us, "Let's be cautious about this,
2:54:42 > 2:54:45"let's look and see what happens in Wales." As you've acknowledged,
2:54:45 > 2:54:48Jo-Anne's bill, even if it was passed tomorrow,
2:54:48 > 2:54:50wouldn't become law until 2018. What is the rush?
2:54:50 > 2:54:52Why not return to this in the new mandate
2:54:52 > 2:54:53once we have some of the evidence there?
2:54:53 > 2:54:56Because the evidence from elsewhere in the world would suggest
2:54:56 > 2:54:59that it isn't going to be the major driver for organ donation.
2:54:59 > 2:55:01OK, if the Welsh model proves to be correct
2:55:01 > 2:55:04and presumed consent works, will you set aside your reservations?
2:55:04 > 2:55:07If that turns out to be demonstrably better for patients
2:55:07 > 2:55:09in Northern Ireland, will you then support it?
2:55:09 > 2:55:11At least in those circumstances it will be evidence-based
2:55:11 > 2:55:13where it's not at the moment.
2:55:13 > 2:55:15No, I still have concerns around presumed consent.
2:55:15 > 2:55:17I think consent is important,
2:55:17 > 2:55:19I don't think that the 108 members of the Assembly
2:55:19 > 2:55:22have the moral right to suggest that everybody in Northern Ireland
2:55:22 > 2:55:24has given their consent when they have not,
2:55:24 > 2:55:27so I want to get to a point where actually we can get people
2:55:27 > 2:55:29to make a decision during their lives. That will help families
2:55:29 > 2:55:32and I think working alongside the public awareness campaign
2:55:32 > 2:55:33that I absolutely support,
2:55:33 > 2:55:35working along the specialist nurses in hospitals
2:55:35 > 2:55:38- which is the key component... - We need to leave it there.
2:55:38 > 2:55:40- ..that's how we push organ donation. - Stay with us.
2:55:40 > 2:55:42It's very interesting to hear your thoughts.
2:55:42 > 2:55:44Let's hear what Sheila Davidson and Chris Donnelly
2:55:44 > 2:55:46have to say in response.
2:55:46 > 2:55:51What do you make, Sheila, of the notion of presumed consent?
2:55:51 > 2:55:55I think it's absolutely fundamental that we accept that presumed consent
2:55:55 > 2:55:58is the way forward for transplants.
2:55:58 > 2:56:0070% of the population wants this,
2:56:00 > 2:56:03but apathy reigns with most people.
2:56:03 > 2:56:06When you get this into legislation, it becomes something then
2:56:06 > 2:56:08that everybody has to seriously consider.
2:56:08 > 2:56:11And I think the opt out option is far better because then,
2:56:11 > 2:56:15if you really do have a fundamental, moral, ethical
2:56:15 > 2:56:18or any other kind of objection to it, you make that happen.
2:56:18 > 2:56:22But here's the point - let's say one instance is badly handled.
2:56:22 > 2:56:24Some sort of confusion arises
2:56:24 > 2:56:27and a family is very upset in very sensitive
2:56:27 > 2:56:29and very difficult circumstances.
2:56:29 > 2:56:33That could have a hugely detrimental impact on organ donation levels.
2:56:33 > 2:56:35- Is that a risk worth taking? - Yes, it is.
2:56:35 > 2:56:38That's what opponents of Jo-Anne Dobson's bill say.
2:56:38 > 2:56:41It is absolutely a risk worth taking because those risks are being taken
2:56:41 > 2:56:43day and daily in the health service as we speak.
2:56:43 > 2:56:47I mean, when you have the kinds of exposes we've had
2:56:47 > 2:56:50previously of families feeling that,
2:56:50 > 2:56:54when they had organ retention, which was actually just
2:56:54 > 2:56:57slivers of samples and that sort of thing, became such a huge issue,
2:56:57 > 2:56:59it's always going to happen, but that's not going to save lives
2:56:59 > 2:57:02and I think Jo-Anne's absolutely right to pursue this.
2:57:02 > 2:57:05- Chris, where do you stand on this? - I think Jo-Anne is to be commended
2:57:05 > 2:57:06for bringing this legislation.
2:57:06 > 2:57:09I understand Alastair's point with the ethical argument,
2:57:09 > 2:57:12but this is about saving lives and I think presumed consent,
2:57:12 > 2:57:15the soft opt out model, is the way to go.
2:57:15 > 2:57:18I do appreciate, if you look at the models of best practice,
2:57:18 > 2:57:20particularly the Spanish system, the opt...
2:57:20 > 2:57:23In terms of increasing the potential donor pool
2:57:23 > 2:57:25on its own isn't normally enough.
2:57:25 > 2:57:28The Spanish system, they have teams of transplant coordinators
2:57:28 > 2:57:31who are very effective at ensuring that opportunities
2:57:31 > 2:57:33for organ donation are not missed,
2:57:33 > 2:57:35they're very good at working with the families
2:57:35 > 2:57:37to ensure that consent is followed through.
2:57:37 > 2:57:40So I think we need to do more than just move on the soft opt out model,
2:57:40 > 2:57:43we need to move on that as well at the same time.
2:57:43 > 2:57:47OK. Thanks, we'll hear more from both of you again very shortly
2:57:47 > 2:57:48and thanks to the politicians.
2:57:48 > 2:57:52We'll keep a very close eye on that over the next few weeks.
2:57:52 > 2:57:54Let's just pause at this stage though and take a look back
2:57:54 > 2:57:57at the political week in 60 seconds with Gareth Gordon.
2:58:02 > 2:58:06A judge rules abortion laws here are in breach of human rights
2:58:06 > 2:58:10and new draft guidelines are issued, but confusion remains.
2:58:10 > 2:58:12In the face of the court decision,
2:58:12 > 2:58:15we've now got a conflicting issue of guidance which seems to me
2:58:15 > 2:58:19to have been out-of-date four or five hours before it was circulated.
2:58:19 > 2:58:22Parliament votes to back airstrikes in Syria,
2:58:22 > 2:58:24but differing views from local MPs.
2:58:24 > 2:58:27We need to protect people, our own citizens now
2:58:27 > 2:58:29when there is a real and present danger to them.
2:58:29 > 2:58:34There is a severe risk of feeding what we are trying to fight.
2:58:34 > 2:58:39The veteran SDLP MLA Pat Ramsey announces he's quitting politics
2:58:39 > 2:58:41and a former finance minister
2:58:41 > 2:58:43shows what he thinks of Stormont's Nama Inquiry.
2:58:43 > 2:58:48Had I not made the promise, I doubt very much if I would've come along
2:58:48 > 2:58:53to grace the kind of Mickey Mouse exercise which has been undertaken.
2:58:53 > 2:58:55And things get a little hot under the collar
2:58:55 > 2:58:57across the Assembly benches.
2:58:57 > 2:59:00I'm not sure, though, how she felt my passion,
2:59:00 > 2:59:02I hope it was as good for her as it was for me.
2:59:09 > 2:59:11The king of the risque aside,
2:59:11 > 2:59:15Mark H Durkan ending that look back at the week from Gareth Gordon.
2:59:15 > 2:59:18Now, ministers took to the waters of Belfast Lough this week to support
2:59:18 > 2:59:22the latest government-backed tourism project - the multimillion pound
2:59:22 > 2:59:23restoration of HMS Caroline.
2:59:23 > 2:59:25When the ship opens its door to the public
2:59:25 > 2:59:28as a floating museum in six months, it'll be hoping to cash in
2:59:28 > 2:59:31on the success of the Titanic Belfast building,
2:59:31 > 2:59:33but some projects are finding that more difficult
2:59:33 > 2:59:35than you might think.
2:59:35 > 2:59:38We sent Kevin Magee down to the Lagan to investigate.
2:59:42 > 2:59:46Titanic Belfast is a monument to our maritime past
2:59:46 > 2:59:49and the flagship tourism project of the future.
2:59:49 > 2:59:53Last year, 700,000 visitors passed through its doors.
2:59:53 > 2:59:58Tourism is one of the Executive's key target areas for economic growth
2:59:58 > 3:00:02and this building symbolises what it's trying to achieve.
3:00:02 > 3:00:04Its visitor numbers are up,
3:00:04 > 3:00:08but are the benefits being spread across the entire economy?
3:00:10 > 3:00:12Ministers hoist the flag for the Executive
3:00:12 > 3:00:17to mark the six-month countdown to the opening of the HMS Caroline,
3:00:17 > 3:00:20the latest visitor attraction in Titanic Quarter.
3:00:20 > 3:00:24Once completed, the First World War ship will be hoping to cash in on
3:00:24 > 3:00:29the numbers visiting its much larger neighbour, the Titanic building.
3:00:29 > 3:00:31The planning for the operational phase forward,
3:00:31 > 3:00:35clearly we will be having a number of discussions
3:00:35 > 3:00:40with Titanic Belfast on how we can mutually work together.
3:00:40 > 3:00:42The Enterprise Minister Jonathan Bell
3:00:42 > 3:00:45says the Executive's tourism strategy is working.
3:00:45 > 3:00:48Titanic Belfast is a tremendous success,
3:00:48 > 3:00:50hitting well over 90% of its targets,
3:00:50 > 3:00:53bringing in 2.5 million people to this country,
3:00:53 > 3:00:56bringing in the spending power of 2.5 million people.
3:00:56 > 3:01:00I actually believe a rising tide lifts all boats.
3:01:00 > 3:01:04But it hasn't lifted this one - a tour operator on the Lagan
3:01:04 > 3:01:08believes Titanic Belfast is hoovering up all the tourist spend
3:01:08 > 3:01:09along the river.
3:01:09 > 3:01:14Since it opened in 2012, his public tour business has nosedived.
3:01:14 > 3:01:17Since Titanic Belfast has opened, things have changed radically.
3:01:17 > 3:01:20Not just for me, for a lot of small businesses, tour businesses
3:01:20 > 3:01:23and stuff around the harbour particularly.
3:01:23 > 3:01:27We're fighting against a multimillion pound business there
3:01:27 > 3:01:31that was funded by the taxpayer and charities or whatever,
3:01:31 > 3:01:34European Union, I don't know all their financials,
3:01:34 > 3:01:37but, you know, it's a big marketing budget we're fighting against
3:01:37 > 3:01:39and our business went down about 80% the day it opened.
3:01:39 > 3:01:41Never really recovered.
3:01:42 > 3:01:45It's not just the river tours that haven't shared in
3:01:45 > 3:01:49the large number of tourists going to Titanic Belfast.
3:01:49 > 3:01:53The Thompson Dock Pump-house and Cafe haven't experienced
3:01:53 > 3:01:55much of a lift and, further up the river,
3:01:55 > 3:01:59the Belfast Barge Museum, like the river tours,
3:01:59 > 3:02:02has actually recorded a fall off in visitor numbers
3:02:02 > 3:02:06since 2012 when the Titanic centre opened.
3:02:06 > 3:02:09It's had to cut staff after its visitor numbers fell.
3:02:09 > 3:02:11It was down quite dramatically,
3:02:11 > 3:02:13I would say there was about a 50% drop.
3:02:13 > 3:02:16Now, we've recovered some of that.
3:02:16 > 3:02:19You would hope, especially with the amount of international people
3:02:19 > 3:02:22that it would've brought in, that they wouldn't just see
3:02:22 > 3:02:25the one place, they would go to them all.
3:02:25 > 3:02:27Unfortunately, that's not what we've experienced.
3:02:27 > 3:02:32I would say that the barge museum has actually been more supported
3:02:32 > 3:02:35by local people that have been really invested in the story
3:02:35 > 3:02:38and we haven't seen the positive effects
3:02:38 > 3:02:42of, you know, increased visitor numbers internationally.
3:02:42 > 3:02:45This charity cafe in the shadow of the Titanic building
3:02:45 > 3:02:47is run by a church minister.
3:02:47 > 3:02:50He's also behind the tram that aims to move visitors
3:02:50 > 3:02:54from Titanic Belfast to other nearby attractions,
3:02:54 > 3:02:56spreading the tourist pound.
3:02:56 > 3:02:58The tram has only just started,
3:02:58 > 3:03:00we've just had our first season of operation.
3:03:00 > 3:03:02It started fairly small, yes.
3:03:02 > 3:03:05So, we've had a couple of thousand people on in the first year
3:03:05 > 3:03:06and that's really exciting.
3:03:06 > 3:03:10Is the overspill happening to the degree that you would've hoped?
3:03:10 > 3:03:12Er, I think I'll say not yet,
3:03:12 > 3:03:14but I don't see that as the end of the story,
3:03:14 > 3:03:17I just see it... We're on the first chapter
3:03:17 > 3:03:19and there's so much work still to be done,
3:03:19 > 3:03:22so many opportunities still to be explored, so I think it'll be
3:03:22 > 3:03:26very exciting to see where it goes next year and in the years to come.
3:03:26 > 3:03:30The Titanic building cost £77 million to construct.
3:03:30 > 3:03:33Most of the funding, 60 million, came from the public purse.
3:03:33 > 3:03:36So, should it be doing more to encourage its visitors
3:03:36 > 3:03:39to visit other tourist-related businesses?
3:03:39 > 3:03:42It says it already is.
3:03:42 > 3:03:43If you look at the statistics
3:03:43 > 3:03:47and the £120 million that we've generated in the local economy
3:03:47 > 3:03:48in the first three years,
3:03:48 > 3:03:52if you look at the occupancy rate of the hotels, which is now at 80%,
3:03:52 > 3:03:54if you look at the cruise ships which has grown from 10
3:03:54 > 3:03:58through to 75 next year, if you look at the coach operators,
3:03:58 > 3:04:02we've got 120,000 coach operator visitors coming this year...
3:04:02 > 3:04:04There is a trickle-down effect already.
3:04:04 > 3:04:05You do have to be competitive
3:04:05 > 3:04:08and you have to fight for your place in the market.
3:04:08 > 3:04:11When Titanic Belfast took over the SS Nomadic,
3:04:11 > 3:04:14its visitor numbers trebled.
3:04:14 > 3:04:18But for private tour operator Derek Booker, that hasn't happened.
3:04:18 > 3:04:21His main concern remains that his public tour business
3:04:21 > 3:04:25won't suffer the same fate as the tragic liner herself.
3:04:27 > 3:04:29Kevin Magee reporting on the challenges of surviving
3:04:29 > 3:04:31in the shadow of Titanic Belfast.
3:04:31 > 3:04:33Let's have a final word with Sheila and Chris.
3:04:33 > 3:04:37Sheila, there's the juxtaposition, a big project built
3:04:37 > 3:04:40with public money and a huge marketing budget, and the little guy.
3:04:40 > 3:04:43Yes. I mean, I remember, my very first experience of Titanic anything
3:04:43 > 3:04:46was on the boat tour and it was wonderful,
3:04:46 > 3:04:49but the problem is the investment has not been there
3:04:49 > 3:04:51and even though they are private sector businesses,
3:04:51 > 3:04:53they should have had some more marketing support,
3:04:53 > 3:04:56even capital support, to be able to deliver a product that is good,
3:04:56 > 3:05:00because the Titanic signature building is plonked in the middle
3:05:00 > 3:05:03of the Titanic area, but there's very little connectivity.
3:05:03 > 3:05:06And I think that a little bit more joined-up thinking could actually
3:05:06 > 3:05:09help those businesses and trickle down from the signature building.
3:05:09 > 3:05:11Chris, I wanted to ask you about something separate
3:05:11 > 3:05:14which is quite interesting. Sinn Fein's been under a lot of pressure,
3:05:14 > 3:05:16we know, for signing up to the Fresh Start deal.
3:05:16 > 3:05:19Now the party seems to have got support
3:05:19 > 3:05:21from, let's say, an unlikely quarter.
3:05:21 > 3:05:23Yes, I thought it was interesting during the week,
3:05:23 > 3:05:25the Northern Ireland committee of the ICTU,
3:05:25 > 3:05:28an umbrella trade union organisation,
3:05:28 > 3:05:32released a statement which was quite stridently different in tone
3:05:32 > 3:05:34from their position after the Stormont House Agreement
3:05:34 > 3:05:37just 11 months ago in January, when they came out
3:05:37 > 3:05:39and called the Stormont House Agreement a bad deal.
3:05:39 > 3:05:42They took out newspaper advertisements very critical
3:05:42 > 3:05:45of the deal at the time and that was unprecedented
3:05:45 > 3:05:47at the time, that they would come out against,
3:05:47 > 3:05:49the first time the unions had come out against a deal
3:05:49 > 3:05:52between the representatives of the two different communities.
3:05:52 > 3:05:54And we know that, at that time,
3:05:54 > 3:05:57the DUP were very stung by that statement by Peter Robinson -
3:05:57 > 3:05:59Sammy Wilson condemned that.
3:05:59 > 3:06:01Sinn Fein, within two months however, moved away
3:06:01 > 3:06:03from the Stormont House Agreement
3:06:03 > 3:06:06and, in a sense, that suggested that the unions had formed
3:06:06 > 3:06:08a connection with Sinn Fein, they'd influenced them.
3:06:08 > 3:06:10Now, at this moment when Sinn Fein are quite vulnerable
3:06:10 > 3:06:12because of the Fresh Start deal,
3:06:12 > 3:06:17the unions have come out with a line which kind of reflects
3:06:17 > 3:06:20- the Sinn Fein position about this being a better deal over...- OK.
3:06:20 > 3:06:23..direct rule would be unimaginable consequences,
3:06:23 > 3:06:24that's quite interesting.
3:06:24 > 3:06:27Need to leave it there, thanks both very much indeed.
3:06:27 > 3:06:29That's it from Sunday Politics for this week.
3:06:29 > 3:06:32Join me for Stormont Today, that's on BBC Two at 11:20 on Monday night.
3:06:32 > 3:06:35But, for now, from everyone in the team, thanks for watching.
3:06:35 > 3:06:36Bye-bye.